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(Thomson Reuters)   Strip club: lap dances are tax exempt because they are "artistic performances". Court: Don't try that internet trolling stuff here, young man   (newsandinsight.thomsonreuters.com) divider line 54
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5426 clicks; posted to Main » on 11 Feb 2013 at 8:26 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-02-11 08:28:58 AM  
TTIUWOP

/BIE?  EIP
 
2013-02-11 08:34:33 AM  
Yeah, the dissent's got a very good point FTFA:   "The people who paid these admission charges paid to see women dancing. It does not matter if the dance was artistic or crude, boring or erotic," Smith wrote, joined by two colleagues.

When is "dance" art?  There's no arguing that men didn't go to see these women dance.  Yeah, most of the dance they want to see involves their disrobed state, but they're there to see dancers.  If the club has the cash to continue to fight this, they do have a valid argument.
 
2013-02-11 08:35:38 AM  
It's extra if you want an interactive multimedia experience.
 
2013-02-11 08:36:58 AM  
I don't know if it is art, but what i saw a girl do with a roll of quarters one night took talent.

/bie
//you know the EIP is there
 
2013-02-11 08:37:25 AM  
what if I hold up a score card at the end?
 
2013-02-11 08:40:07 AM  
So the strip club refuses to pay a Tit Tax?
 
2013-02-11 08:41:15 AM  
I thought they only charge if you discharge?
 
2013-02-11 08:42:26 AM  
I knew a tattoo artist who used to try and trade free tattoo  coupons for lap dances.

It rarely worked.

He couldn't get tit for tat.
 
2013-02-11 08:43:45 AM  

stevarooni: Yeah, the dissent's got a very good point FTFA:   "The people who paid these admission charges paid to see women dancing. It does not matter if the dance was artistic or crude, boring or erotic," Smith wrote, joined by two colleagues.

When is "dance" art?  There's no arguing that men didn't go to see these women dance.  Yeah, most of the dance they want to see involves their disrobed state, but they're there to see dancers.  If the club has the cash to continue to fight this, they do have a valid argument.


http://codes.lp.findlaw.com/nycode/TAX/28/III-EXEMPTIONS/1123
Law states it can ONLY be used for admission prices, not for food or other services, and that admission prices can't be used to cover food prices. So if he is trying to argue beverage and lap dance fees. He's lost this case already.
 
2013-02-11 08:44:24 AM  
Why is there a state tax exemption on "dramatic or musical arts performance" in the first place? Why should a ballerina and the hall she performs at to entertain people not have to pay state taxes, but Destiny at Nite Moves has to forfeit her hard earned singles to the gov't? Some of those ballerinas are pretty hot, I may have been aroused during the second movement of the Nutcracker.
 
2013-02-11 08:46:19 AM  
A New York strip club that lost a bid to avoid paying taxes on money earned from lap dances is taking its case to the U.S. Supreme Court, the club's attorney said.

There's an image. Just imagine Scalia, Kennedy, and Thomas up there on the bench asking to see more evidence.
 
2013-02-11 08:48:25 AM  
So if there's dancing in a movie is it tax exempt? Look for Hollywood to start including a dance routine in every film. I'm guessing after the 10 minutes of credits at the end.
 
2013-02-11 08:49:06 AM  

drgloryboy: Why is there a state tax exemption on "dramatic or musical arts performance" in the first place? Why should a ballerina and the hall she performs at to entertain people not have to pay state taxes, but Destiny at Nite Moves has to forfeit her hard earned singles to the gov't? Some of those ballerinas are pretty hot, I may have been aroused during the second movement of the Nutcracker.


Because everyone has to pay tax on income.  Even the ballerina.  The club owner doesn't want to pay tax on the per-dance "admission" fee.  Whatever filters down to the sluts dancers isn't tax exempt unless she owns the club.
 
2013-02-11 08:50:36 AM  

Kome: A New York strip club that lost a bid to avoid paying taxes on money earned from lap dances is taking its case to the U.S. Supreme Court, the club's attorney said.

There's an image. Just imagine Scalia, Kennedy, and Thomas up there on the bench asking to see more evidence.


encrypted-tbn2.gstatic.com
/had to be first
 
2013-02-11 08:50:37 AM  
I would think for this argument to win you'd need to prove that erotic dancing (or dancing, generally) is either a dramatic art or a musical art.

Two definitions might be:
Dramatic art: The art of writing and/or producing plays.
Musical art: The art of writing and/or producing music.

In which case their argument of dancing being one of them is.... more of a stretch.  However, if they played a fiddle or a flute while up on stage, we might be on to something.
 
2013-02-11 08:50:44 AM  
This is why we can't have nice things. An exception was made in tax law to promote cultural events, and some sleeze is trying to use it to skirt his tax bill.

If this passes at the Supreme Court (unlikely) and strip clubs are allowed to claim tax free revenue, not only does that go against the spirit of the exemption, but lawmakers would probably close that exemption. So I don't see this as being great for the artists the law was originally intending to help.
 
2013-02-11 08:52:31 AM  

drgloryboy: Why is there a state tax exemption on "dramatic or musical arts performance" in the first place? Why should a ballerina and the hall she performs at to entertain people not have to pay state taxes, but Destiny at Nite Moves has to forfeit her hard earned singles to the gov't? Some of those ballerinas are pretty hot, I may have been aroused during the second movement of the Nutcracker.


Because a performing arts union/group probably lobbied to have the law passed.  It also benefits NYC as being an epicenter of performing arts and culture.
 
2013-02-11 08:54:43 AM  

MindStalker: http://codes.lp.findlaw.com/nycode/TAX/28/III-EXEMPTIONS/1123
Law states it can ONLY be used for admission prices, not for food or other services, and that admission prices can't be used to cover food prices. So if he is trying to argue beverage and lap dance fees. He's lost this case already.


That's a pretty strong argument, at least for food and beverage prices.  I'm less sure on lap dance fees; that is very much patronage of an artist's work.
 
2013-02-11 09:00:45 AM  

PirateKing: I knew a tattoo artist who used to try and trade free tattoo  coupons for lap dances.

It rarely worked.

He couldn't get tit for tat.


Ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh......

I just put out a contract on you.
 
2013-02-11 09:03:24 AM  
If the cash is going to the dancers directly I wouldn't have too much of a problem with it. If the clubs are taking the money.. f*ck them. Pay the taxes. Frikkin' vultures.
 
2013-02-11 09:05:19 AM  

RandomCommenter: This is why we can't have nice things. An exception was made in tax law to promote cultural events, and some sleeze is trying to use it to skirt his tax bill.

If this passes at the Supreme Court (unlikely) and strip clubs are allowed to claim tax free revenue, not only does that go against the spirit of the exemption, but lawmakers would probably close that exemption. So I don't see this as being great for the artists the law was originally intending to help.


Here's the thing. We are supposed to be a nation of laws. And that means a literal interpretation of the law. This "in the spirit of" stuff opens the door to abuse: to exactly the type of thing mentioned in TFA, where a tax collector becomes a drama critic.
 
2013-02-11 09:11:48 AM  
I dated a chick that worked at that club so im getting a kick....
 
2013-02-11 09:19:28 AM  

Mazzic518: I dated a chick that worked at that club so im getting a kick....


I miss the old billboards. The ones that were on the second-rate paper so the glamour shot would be peeling and faded after 2 years of being up on Central.
 
2013-02-11 09:35:02 AM  
So let me rephrase that. Why should a Hall who has women in tutu's dancing to Tchaikovsky avoid having to pay taxes, but the club who has women dancing in thongs to Avenged Sevenfold have to pay the man? Oh right, culture. Everyone can still have their nice things, just pay taxes like everyone else. Maybe the strippers  can unionize and lobby the gov't to avoid paying taxes and become the epicenter for the strippiest town in the US. On that note, why should churches preaching the word of God be exempt from taxes, but the guy who teaches a self help seminar have to pay up? Oh right, Jeebus and all that.
 
2013-02-11 09:44:53 AM  
The wife says I can't go to a titty bar ever. Might as well tax them to death and shut them down anyway.
 
2013-02-11 10:05:54 AM  

SockMonkeyHolocaust: It's extra if you want an interactive multimedia experience.


THERE IS NO MUTIMEDIA IN THE CHAMPAGNE ROOM
 
2013-02-11 10:23:33 AM  
nickerj1: "Because a performing arts union/group probably lobbied to have the law passed. "

Really? You think the an employee union lobbied for lower taxes for their employers?
You may want to take your reflexive "unions are teh devil" reaction and introduce it to some common sense.
 
2013-02-11 10:36:18 AM  
I'm pretty sure that strip clubs in Oregon are protected by the "artistic performance" clause in their state constitution. It's one reason they don't have any zoning rules for the clubs.

I'd look it up, but I'm at work and don't want to risk Googeling strip club rules.
 
2013-02-11 10:40:22 AM  

nickerj1: I would think for this argument to win you'd need to prove that erotic dancing (or dancing, generally) is either a dramatic art or a musical art.

Two definitions might be:
Dramatic art: The art of writing and/or producing plays.
Musical art: The art of writing and/or producing music.

In which case their argument of dancing being one of them is.... more of a stretch.  However, if they played a fiddle or a flute while up on stage, we might be on to something.


I'm sorry, what now? Could you explain what type of art ballet is, then?

There's no question that dance is art. There's also no question that stripping is not art, but good luck with it.
 
2013-02-11 10:40:37 AM  

drgloryboy: So let me rephrase that. Why should a Hall who has women in tutu's dancing to Tchaikovsky avoid having to pay taxes, but the club who has women dancing in thongs to Avenged Sevenfold have to pay the man? Oh right, culture. Everyone can still have their nice things, just pay taxes like everyone else. Maybe the strippers  can unionize and lobby the gov't to avoid paying taxes and become the epicenter for the strippiest town in the US. On that note, why should churches preaching the word of God be exempt from taxes, but the guy who teaches a self help seminar have to pay up? Oh right, Jeebus and all that.


Yeah, that stupid First Amendment thing.  What the fark is up with that?  I mean, it's not like anyone has fought wars over protecting their religion from government interference or governments have attempted to use taxation to stamp out religions they dislike or anything.
 
2013-02-11 10:41:13 AM  

PirateKing: I knew a tattoo artist who used to try and trade free tattoo  coupons for lap dances.

It rarely worked.

He couldn't get tit for tat.


Ahh, well played, sir.
 
2013-02-11 10:41:45 AM  
In Orlando a while back they put out an ordinance banning full nudity in strip clubs citing public decency. The strip clubs then decided to perform plays fully nude and called it art. Strippers doing shakespeare is truly the height of culture.
 
2013-02-11 10:42:48 AM  

ringersol: nickerj1: "Because a performing arts union/group probably lobbied to have the law passed. "

Really? You think the an employee union lobbied for lower taxes for their employers?
You may want to take your reflexive "unions are teh devil" reaction and introduce it to some common sense.


Probably not, but that's because doing so would be in their best interests as individuals but go against the innate antipathy that unionism forms between workers and management.  So, to answer your question more clearly: I don't think unions would lobby for lowering taxes on their employers because unions are teh devil.
 
2013-02-11 10:46:23 AM  

Jument: nickerj1: I would think for this argument to win you'd need to prove that erotic dancing (or dancing, generally) is either a dramatic art or a musical art.

Two definitions might be:
Dramatic art: The art of writing and/or producing plays.
Musical art: The art of writing and/or producing music.

In which case their argument of dancing being one of them is.... more of a stretch.  However, if they played a fiddle or a flute while up on stage, we might be on to something.

I'm sorry, what now? Could you explain what type of art ballet is, then?

There's no question that dance is art. There's also no question that stripping is not art, but good luck with it.


Stripping isnt art? What do you consider burlesque?
 
2013-02-11 10:51:54 AM  

Jument: nickerj1: I would think for this argument to win you'd need to prove that erotic dancing (or dancing, generally) is either a dramatic art or a musical art.

Two definitions might be:
Dramatic art: The art of writing and/or producing plays.
Musical art: The art of writing and/or producing music.

In which case their argument of dancing being one of them is.... more of a stretch.  However, if they played a fiddle or a flute while up on stage, we might be on to something.

I'm sorry, what now? Could you explain what type of art ballet is, then?

There's no question that dance is art. There's also no question that stripping is not art, but good luck with it.


I agree that dancing is an art.  However, the law doesn't exempt "performing arts" or "dancing arts".  It only exempts "dramatic arts" and "musical arts".  You need to convince SCOTUS that dancing (specifically erotic dancing) is either a dramatic art or a musical art.

ringersol: nickerj1: "Because a performing arts union/group probably lobbied to have the law passed. "

Really? You think the an employee union lobbied for lower taxes for their employers?
You may want to take your reflexive "unions are teh devil" reaction and introduce it to some common sense.


No, I think a special interest group for promoting performing arts lobbied to have it passed.  Learn to read with context, dipshiat.
 
2013-02-11 10:52:53 AM  
The Colbert Report covering this was hysterical. At least for a kid that grew up in Albany such as myself...
http://www.nydailynews.com/blogs/dailypolitics/2012/11/colbert-repor t- and-albanys-strip-joint-tax-war
 
2013-02-11 10:55:49 AM  

meanmutton: ringersol: nickerj1: "Because a performing arts union/group probably lobbied to have the law passed. "

Really? You think the an employee union lobbied for lower taxes for their employers?
You may want to take your reflexive "unions are teh devil" reaction and introduce it to some common sense.

Probably not, but that's because doing so would be in their best interests as individuals but go against the innate antipathy that unionism forms between workers and management.  So, to answer your question more clearly: I don't think unions would lobby for lowering taxes on their employers because unions are teh devil.


In case you didn't get that was tongue in cheek, here are some examples of unions lobbying for tax breaks for their employers because, you know, they're not idiots:

http://articles.latimes.com/2011/sep/04/local/la-me-hollywood-subsid y- 20110905 Hollywood unions advocating for state of California tax breaks for movie making companies

http://www.uaw.org/taxonomy/term/2272/0  UAW supporting tax breaks for small companies that create jobs and any company to engage in US-based manufacturing, among other issues
 
2013-02-11 11:45:17 AM  
1) you take your clothes off
2) art
3) boner
 
2013-02-11 11:52:20 AM  
I don't understand guys who go to strip clubs.  Looking at porn online is frustrating enough.  Why would anyone pay to go see live women they can't have?
 
2013-02-11 12:22:40 PM  

Cloudchaser Sakonige the Red Wolf: I don't understand guys who go to strip clubs.  Looking at porn online is frustrating enough.  Why would anyone pay to go see live women they can't have?


The smell of a nude woman next to you is just as powerful as an image.
 
2013-02-11 12:33:13 PM  

nickerj1: I would think for this argument to win you'd need to prove that erotic dancing (or dancing, generally) is either a dramatic art or a musical art.

Two definitions might be:
Dramatic art: The art of writing and/or producing plays.
Musical art: The art of writing and/or producing music.

In which case their argument of dancing being one of them is.... more of a stretch.  However, if they played a fiddle or a flute while up on stage, we might be on to something.


I've had strippers fiddle with my flute.  And we're talking lap dances, not stage dances.
 
2013-02-11 12:43:26 PM  

Just Another OC Homeless Guy: RandomCommenter: This is why we can't have nice things. An exception was made in tax law to promote cultural events, and some sleeze is trying to use it to skirt his tax bill.

If this passes at the Supreme Court (unlikely) and strip clubs are allowed to claim tax free revenue, not only does that go against the spirit of the exemption, but lawmakers would probably close that exemption. So I don't see this as being great for the artists the law was originally intending to help.

Here's the thing. We are supposed to be a nation of laws. And that means a literal interpretation of the law. This "in the spirit of" stuff opens the door to abuse: to exactly the type of thing mentioned in TFA, where a tax collector becomes a drama critic.


The "literal interpretation" considers records of discussions  that indicate legislative intent.  The "spirit of the law" is not just made up by a judge, it's based upon evidence that  is in  the record but not in the law.

Remember the NY defibrillator case?  It's highly likely that legislators' intended  defibrillators to be used, but that intent was not in the record so the judges refused to infer it..
 
2013-02-11 12:46:54 PM  
There is no question in my mind that stripping is artistic dance and artistic dance is erotic even when it doesn't involve  stripping.  Club wins.
 
2013-02-11 12:58:26 PM  

Cloudchaser Sakonige the Red Wolf: I don't understand guys who go to strip clubs.  Looking at porn online is frustrating enough.  Why would anyone pay to go see live women they can't have?


If you are out with the guys, having some drinks, it is fun. It great to watch how different people act in that environment.
 
2013-02-11 01:09:45 PM  

Cloudchaser Sakonige the Red Wolf: I don't understand guys who go to strip clubs.  Looking at porn online is frustrating enough.  Why would anyone pay to go see live women they can't have?


Chris Rock lied about the champaign room.
 
2013-02-11 01:56:50 PM  

Cloudchaser Sakonige the Red Wolf: I don't understand guys who go to strip clubs.  Looking at porn online is frustrating enough.  Why would anyone pay to go see live women they can't have?


I don't understand guys who go to play houses.  Looking at movies online is enough.  Why would anyone pay to go see live performances of stories they can see at home?

I don't understand guys who go to concerts.  Listening to music online is free enough.  Why would anyone pay to go see live shows of songs they can hear anytime?

Because there is a difference between a live show and video. Go to a club sometime and find out for yourself.
 
2013-02-11 02:19:01 PM  

here to help: If the cash is going to the dancers directly I wouldn't have too much of a problem with it. If the clubs are taking the money.. f*ck them. Pay the taxes. Frikkin' vultures.


At the club I visit, dances are handled through the point of sale system. Dancers make $9 for every $15 dance. They do not have to declare tips (most guys either don't tip at all or tip $5) if they can make change before they bring it to the point of sale. Since the whole transaction runs through the register, it's normal income and it is taxable. The girls actually get a normal W2 with normal taxable income on it.

Hilariously, this means the girls who actually have their shiat together also save receipts for things like corsets, duct tape and 6" heels, because those are legitimate write-offs.

As to the question of artistry, all  I can say is that it depends on the performer. One of my acquaintances does deliberately retro 1940s-era cabaret  performances instead of pole tricks and another one more or less mixes stripper stuff with 12 years of ballet classes. Those are both pretty damned artistic.

/Just helped a young lady do her taxes for the first time
//Too cheap for lap dances
 
2013-02-11 02:20:03 PM  

Cloudchaser Sakonige the Red Wolf: I don't understand guys who go to strip clubs.  Looking at porn online is <b>frustrating</b> enough.  Why would anyone pay to go see live women they can't have?


Seems a couple people missed that word and thus totally misconstrued CStRW's point.
 
2013-02-11 02:21:41 PM  

Cloudchaser Sakonige the Red Wolf: I don't understand guys who go to strip clubs.  Looking at porn online is frustrating enough.  Why would anyone pay to go see live women they can't have?



Damnit. See above.
 
2013-02-11 03:51:49 PM  

likefunbutnot: here to help: If the cash is going to the dancers directly I wouldn't have too much of a problem with it. If the clubs are taking the money.. f*ck them. Pay the taxes. Frikkin' vultures.

At the club I visit, dances are handled through the point of sale system. Dancers make $9 for every $15 dance. They do not have to declare tips (most guys either don't tip at all or tip $5) if they can make change before they bring it to the point of sale. Since the whole transaction runs through the register, it's normal income and it is taxable. The girls actually get a normal W2 with normal taxable income on it.

Hilariously, this means the girls who actually have their shiat together also save receipts for things like corsets, duct tape and 6" heels, because those are legitimate write-offs.

As to the question of artistry, all  I can say is that it depends on the performer. One of my acquaintances does deliberately retro 1940s-era cabaret  performances instead of pole tricks and another one more or less mixes stripper stuff with 12 years of ballet classes. Those are both pretty damned artistic.

/Just helped a young lady do her taxes for the first time
//Too cheap for lap dances


I've seen some very artistic performances in a strip club. The definition of art is agreed upon by the creator and the viewer, any external third party doesn't get a vote.
 
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