Why aren't the planes that attacked Pearl Harbor on display? Because Japan lost...the war and tons of lives as a result of bombing us in the first place. If we had lost, I doubt the Enola Gay, regardless of it's value as a technological achievement, would be on display at all.

Such is war. Japan attacked America, TS.

April 7, 1995. "President Bill Clinton stated his view that the United States should not apologize for dropping the bomb and that President Harry Truman
had made the correct decision based on the facts he had before him. Prime Minister Murayama Tomiichi deplored the remark, commenting, "I wish he had shown some sympathy for the feelings of the Japanese people."...at a press
conference the same evening, Clinton reiterated his support of Truman's decision.

I think, nomales, that there was some speculation among VFW types that Clinton would apologize for Hiroshima, and they were enraged in advance.

I don't think we need to apologise as a nation, unless all the other nations up and apologise, and we have a big giant international huggyfest.

War is hell.

War is tragedy.

Too bad there's not much left of the Boeing 707s that crashed into the WTC -- I'm sure museums in many countries world would be happy to rebuild them and enjoy much un-american pride in exhibiting them.

Right or wrong, good or bad, Japan was a horrible nation at that time. They killed many people within their own borders and attacked Pearl Harbor prior to an official declaration of war - fark 'em.

The bombings ended a war. Say what you will about how the Japanese were prepared to surrender - who's to say they weren't setting up another major strike? You can't exactly trust a nation who just attacked you completely unprovoked.

When that moron-tree-hugging-liberal-pansy Clinton apologised to them, I wanted to leave the country.

The remark I remeber was in at least 96

Theycallthiswork:

Casualty figures are not debatable. Look at the behavior of Japanese civilians on Saipan and Okinawa. Voluntarily choosing suicide over surrender. Furthermore, every Japanese civilian on the home islands was being armed to the teeth, fortifications put in place everywhere, and roughly 8-10 thousand kamikazi planes being prepared. If US forces had to fight across the entirety of the islands then casualties would have dwarfed those at Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

Social Distortion, 1945

atom bomb,
tnt
new disease,
poor city flying over hiroshima,
1945
the city looks small from way up here
i wonder who'll survive
[chorus:]
atom bomb,
tnt
new disease,
poor city a blinding flash
hotter than the sun
dead bodies lie across the path
the radiation colors the air finishing one by one
[chorus]

I used to think blowing one up in an uninhabited first was a good idea, but after reading a few books about the matter realized it wasn't. Nuking an island as a "warning shot" was considered, BTW -- and rejected for many reasons. Giving the Russians a heads-up was one. Also, we only had two weapons and didn't even know if the second one would work. The second bomb (fat man) was a implosion design, a design which had not been tested. Had we used the first one as a warning and the second one fizzled we would have been SOL. There were lots more good reasons but I'm not gonna go rooting through my books for them right now 'cause I gotta leave now.

We did the right thing.

squee, I agree with you about Nazi deathcamps being preserved. But the Enola Gay, at least when I saw it in '96, was in a "gee whiz, we lovingly restored this" kind of vibe, instead of a "sad we had to do this to Japan, but check it out, and learn from the past" way...

And for an example, say, If we bombed another country's ports... Then they drop two A-bombs on say......chicago, or new york, We'd be broke up about it and crying and say it was Unfair, we didn't deserve it... etc. etc. etc....

Double standards are fun aren't they people?

I had been divided on the use of the Atomic Bomb in Japan growing up. Even in war it's difficult to convince yourself that the amount of civilian death is justified. However, when you talk of atrocities, other than the camps run by Werner Von Braun in the SS, no other has disgusted me as much as Japanese Unit 731. DO NOT SEARCH IF YOU HAVE A WEAK STOMACH!!!

Taking into account the amount of war crimes committed by the axis, and the fact of the uncertainty of the power of the bombs; I believe it was not only justified, but heroic. Remember that with these two attacks we basically drew the entire world to a halt.

By the way, 60,000 - 70,000 people were killed in Heroshima. 42,000 people were killed in Nagasaki.

That is savage, and upsetting to me as an American. Sure, I would be afraid to see who would be the most powerful nation in the world would be if we weren't, but killing over 100,000 people to make our point? We should not have had to do that if we were so powerful.

But their act of remembrance beside the plane, was too much for some museum visitors, who angrily chanted "Remember Pearl Harbor" and "What about the Nanjing massacre?" referring to actions of imperial Japanese forces.

"My dad fought in the war go home," shouted another man.

Wow. I mean, just wow. These people are asshats. Chanting this at the disfigured survivors of a farking ATOMIC BOMB?!? Pearl Harbor and the rape of Nanking were undisputed atrocities, but it's not like these survivors had anything to do with it. Unless they were letting 10-year olds make the military decisions back then.

Let these people do what they want. Getting through an atomic blast probably gives them license to view and reflect upon the plane that did it to them.

Survivors are disappointed the plane is being displayed with no reference to casualty figures at Hiroshima.

"We would not mind the plane going on display if they showed the tragedy they caused," said Ms Tomonaga, a Red Cross nurse at the time of the bombing.

The Enola Gay bears a label describing it as the "most sophisticated propeller-driven bomber of World War II".

The text mentions the technological prowess of the aircraft and how it "found its niche on the other side of the globe".

"On August 6, 1945, this Martin-built B-29-45-MO dropped the first atomic weapon used in combat on Hiroshima, Japan."

from 1995...

2003-12-16 03:36:31 PM icon4x
We should not have had to do that if we were so powerful.

Notice we haven't had to do it since?

paradroid Hmm as I have no seen it I can't comment on that then. Love it or loath it, it should be perserved and displayed, how it is displayed can be argued.

Those people clearly don't understand their own history.

Imperial Japan was determined to fight to the last man, woman and child rather than face defeat, and this would have killed at least 2 million of them, bnot to mention countless hundreds of thousands of Americans. This was not just an idle threat; when Okinawa was occiupied, 50,000 of them committed suicide rather than submit. Mothers hurled their own babies off cliffs and then jumped off themselves---it was gruesome.

By all accounts, they knew they were whipped as early as 1943, but they kept on fighting and suffered horrible losses, mainly because they were told the Emperor (who was a figurehead with no real political power, like the Queen of England) would be executed.

Hiroshima and Nagasaki killed 100,000 people, but the function of warfare is to PRESERVE human life, not destroy it. If you can save 2 million for 1/20th of the price, you are obligated to do it.

Closer to home, when we failed to do the right thing in Iraq in 1991, we opened the door to the murder of 1.4 million innocent Iraqis and several hundred thousand Kurds, all of whom were innocent---and over and above the tens of thousands who had been killed already. We also assured ourselves that we would have to come back again and do it right, which is what we are doing now.

Hitler could have been stopped easily in 1933, but Europe didn't have the collective balls to do it. The Communists could have suffered the same fate in 1917, but once again the world had no backbone. Ask the relatives of some of the 26 million people killed in the Bolshevik Revolution + famines + purges etc. how they feel about such inaction. That will put you in a good mood to talk to some of the 45 million additional people who were killed in World War II.

The lessons of history are harsh, and those who fail to learn from them are doomed to repeat them.

But one good thing that resulted from this .. Godzilla!

Lessee if I got this right . . .
1. There was a war on
2. The Japanese pulled off a brilliantly executed ambush of Pearl Harbor that we would have been proud of had we done the same for one of their harbors
3. We dropped a couple of technological innovations that the Japanese would have been proud of if they had invented them first (and made them smaller and cheaper)
4. Somebody has a right to complain because they didn't do 2 or didn't do 3?

I guess I don't get it.

Sqee btw jackass

Nice name, dickless.

And, you are wrong.

But if being an uneducated yes-man to your government works for you, then go for it.

Come ON

Disclaimer: I think dropping the bomb can be justified militarily. As for ethically, probably yes as well, yet I never wish to see one used again, under any circumstances. The winners write the history books, etc.

I think those making claims in this thread of "let it drop, it was 50 years ago" are being a little asinine. Did you read the article? These are ACTUAL SURVIVORS of the bomb protesting. Telling them to "forget it" is like telling someone who raced out of the WTC to just "forget" 9/11. A little misplaced, I think. I can definately see the rage, and don't know what I'd do faced with a similar situation.

In the end, though, they must understand that their government deliberately attacked US soil and killed our people, where we had not done so to them. The worst we had done to them at the time was economic sanctions and a trade embargo for their invasion of China. Looking at it objectively, we ended the war very simply. Looking at it personally and emotionally, they certainly have a right to be pissed.

nomales,

You're an independent, right? You don't like Dubya, right?

nomales how can i argue with your quick american wit? you've changed my mind...PRAISE BE TO AMERICA AND ALL IT STANDS FOR!!!!

idiot....using fear and intimidation and telling people to "suck it" isnt gonna make you any new friends.

p.s. me serving has nothing to do with anything and you know it.

All the protestors want is a little notice that the first A-bomb killed 350,000 people, and the second killed another 150,000.

Formlessone:

We treated their troops poorly eh? Roughly 40% of American POWs in the Pacific died while prisoners of Japan. In fact, there are cases where they used American POWs for medical experiments. Then there were other fun incidents...such as the beheadings of two pilots from VMF-211 (Wake Island's Fighter Squadron) because the Japanese were pissed...this was after they were captured, after commanders decided to keep and not kill the Wake Island garrison, and then herded aboard a transport. And lets not even go into how Japan treated Chinese and Korean civilians...we still can't get definite estimates on all the rapes and deaths. They have no right to complain about how their people were treated when they treated others with much more brutality and contempt.

squee, that's the thing. A lot of people on this thread seem to think the Enola Gay exhibit is like a mini-Holocaust Museum or something. But it's not. The Tom Tomorrow strip up there gets it right -- it's a Disneyfied version.

As a WW2 plane fan, it's nice to have a B-29 restored. But there's just no way you're putting the Atom Bomb dropper out there and giving it the kind of treatment you give Chuck Yeager's test flight.

What happened was, a bunch of veterans threw a fit and made the Smithsonian omit all references to the Enola Gay starting the nuclear age. Washington D.C. museums are pretty middle-of-the-road, and not likely to put on a big hippie flower exhibit -- but in this case, political pressure completely sanitized what could have been a balanced exhibit.

Broncokev Make that: "Don't fark with the US."

I see your point. But you know, if you want to defeat the US, just wait for a democrat to be elected president and then kill a soldier and drag his body through the street. Instant victory.

(warning: failure to wait for a democrat to win election may result in a royal ass kicking)

All these morons who think we never should have dropped the bomb would be the same morons who would be complaining about the wasted lives had we restrained ourselves. Because of the Japanese culture at the time civilian deaths were inevitable. As others have pointed out children were being trained to run underneath tanks with explosives. An invasion would have forced us to kill more civillians than were killed by the bomb.

I think it was the earthquakes and tsunamis that gave birth to godzilla :p

FUBuddy: I'm surprised...I'm sure your university is planning to revoke your degree at any time.

1) You haven't a clue...so I'm not going to even bother. Your historical context is wrong. You are working off a belief system rather then facts. You would make an excellent revisionist historian

2) I'm sure your thesis was on Atomic American and the growth of the atomic program. I suggest you read Ronald Takaki, Richard Rhodes, and Charles W. Sweeney.

3) You haven't a clue...so I'm not going to even bother. Your historical context is wrong. You are working off a belief system rather then facts. You would make an excellent revisionist historian

tell me, what would be better to protest, the cause, or the effect.

The cause was a Militarist/Fascist (debatable on the latter) Government that came into power through assassination politics. They wanted their Co-prosperity sphere, they caused what happened in Hiroshima and Nagasaki when they bombed pearl harbor.

The effect was the dropping of the atomic bomb.

Usually one would logically seek to protest the cause, but i dont see these farking senseless activists protesting at the Yasukuni Shrine where the names of many of those in that Government, not to mention actual convicted War Criminals, are enshrined.

we set them up the bomb!
they had no chance to survive make their time.

BlobBrain Yes, your right Blobbrain is much better and makes more sense. Heh you're just a troll.


And, you are wrong.

No, you're wrong! *sticks out tounge*

But if being an uneducated yes-man to your government works for you, then go for it.

My mama said I don't ned no book learnin' dats hows they gets ya!

nomales,

You're an independent, right? You don't like Dubya, right?



At this point I dont like anyone out there. So yea, you could say that.

nomales,

By the way, I'm asking because I know that if I was that pissed off by my president getting his pecker polished or giving an apology, I'd be a hell of a lot more pissed off at my president throwing soldiers into harms way to fight an unnecessary war with a questionable mission.

sens,

Yeah, it's kind of a festive atmosphere. Kids are getting their pictures taken next to the Enola Gay's original crew. Outside, you can check out an Apollo space capsule.

they deserved it, they were with the nazis, started war with us. i wish we would have done worse.

2003-12-16 03:41:46 PM
stubacka


nomales how can i argue with your quick american wit? you've changed my mind...PRAISE BE TO AMERICA AND ALL IT STANDS FOR!!!!

idiot....using fear and intimidation and telling people to "suck it" isnt gonna make you any new friends.

p.s. me serving has nothing to do with anything and you know it.

1. Good, you got with the program
2. Worked with your mother
3. Yes it does, You did not serve in your military. Pussy.

nomales,

Thanks for responding. I might feel the same way if I were in your shoes.

Thanks for serving.

How many children were on main deck of the USS Arizona? Nuff said.

The Japanese people should blame their own government for starting shiat that they couldn't finish. Farkin' revisionist history.

Yeah, that kid Minoru Nishino who was 13 in 1945 sure deserved to be subjected to the fires of hell. And to taunts in 2003 about "Remember Pearl Harbour" and "Nanking". 'Cause he must have been a loyal Imperial Lackey at 13.

Pearl Harbour, warships and service personnel, damn atrocious sneak attack.

Hiroshima, Buildings containing civilians, elderly and children. Another horrible moment in history.

Lets not forget that these people are thinking about their lives, and the way they lived, not about global politics.

The only thing America has learned from World War 2 is how NOT to run an efficient dictorship. PNAC has learned from the mistakes of Hitler, Mussoulini, and Japan. When the time comes to unleash their own brand of nazi fascism, PNAC's deathcount will be in the BILLIONS.

Back during WW2, many politicians and businessmen admired Hitler so much that they became honorary members of the Nazi party. What makes you think their successors are any different? American Neo-Con politicians and businessmen LOVE Nazism, they LOVE its cold, ruthless, efficiency. They LOVE how it makes the citizens and armed forces 100% obedient. They LOVE how it targets liberals, Jews, and homosexuals for genocide, the people who are brutually hated by the fanatical christian right. They LOVE everything about Nazism because it is the perfect political system for men who are greedy, apathic, and power-hungry beyond humanly possible.

Hitler's legacy will eventually prove to be the death of humanity and the end of our civilization.

nomales - hahaha, you win buddy.


....pussy..

Absolutely freakin amazing how every single half-wit alternative history theory makes it onto these posts. They were surrendering to the Russians. BS. We were never going to attack because we were just going to nuke them to oblivion. BS. They never killed civilians and we did. BS. We knew about Pearl Harbor but let it happen. BS. We are making an idol of this plane. BS. The second bomb wasn't necessary because the first proved the point. BS. We could have just dropped it on an island nearby and they would have given up. BS. Honestly, can you people drive a car with your heads so full of fantasy?

I spent 4 years in Japan. They are still racist, centrist and in complete denial of their own role in WWII. They teach almost nothing about it in school, and what they do teach makes it look like the whole war started because of the actions of other countries and not Japan. They do not talk about Nanking, they do not teach about using Korean and Chinese and American and Philipino and Okinawan women as prostitutes and killing them when they were finished with them, they do not teach kids how it was Imperial Army doctrine to bomb hospitals and shoot medics, they do not teach students that Japan has an official policy of denial concerning any war crimes they committed during WWII. Theirs is still a culture that reveres racial purity and considers anyone not Japanese to be genetically inferior. Does this apply to all of them? No. But it still applies to the majority of them. How about those putz's go home and protest the second class status of women in Japanese culture, or the booming child porn business in Japan, or the growing homeless problem that officially doesn't exist, or the rabid homophobia they exhibit, or the the growing influence of the Yakuza, or the prostitution problem in Tokyo and every other major Japanese city, or the fact that they are hunting whales to extinction, or that their environmental laws are a joke as any company can bypass them by paying a fine prior to committing the violation, or any of the other countless problems that their sick country has? I can go on and on. To curb ( but of course not entirely stop for some people can't help being morons ) the posts that say I just hate Japanese, let me tell you that I host exchange students from Japan. I love doing it and everyone learns from it.

Violence is the answer.