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(Guardian)   Air Force vet lived overseas, wanted to fly to US to see ill mother. Couldn't fly, on no-fly list. Then taken off list. Flies home. Now wants to return to job overseas. Obvious what happens next   (guardian.co.uk) divider line 46
    More: Obvious, United States, air forces  
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15225 clicks; posted to Main » on 10 Feb 2013 at 6:02 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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Archived thread
2013-02-10 02:02:22 PM
7 votes:
This no-fly shiat needs to go to the Supreme Court. Then we can find out once and for all just how much freedom we really have to travel to and from The Land Of The Free™
2013-02-10 06:15:19 PM
4 votes:

JRoo: The terrorists win?


Unfortunately yes. We respond to the terrorist threat of "takin' our freedoms" by taking away our freedoms first ourselves.
2013-02-10 11:11:37 PM
3 votes:

HotWingAgenda: He came back on a temporary basis to visit the family he left behind in the US. His home now is Qatar, which although not part of some modern axis of evil, is still a bit too close to hotspots like Yemen, Lebanon, Syria, etc., for comfort. He's got a valid complaint in that he hasn't been charged with anything, but if some bureaucrat was only aware if him through his movements, he would look suspicious as hell.


Being suspicious because he DARED live in a Muslim country shouldn't be a valid reason to restrict the free movements of an American citizen.
2013-02-10 06:45:36 PM
3 votes:

NutWrench: This no-fly shiat needs to go to the Supreme Court. Then we can find out once and for all just how much freedom we really have to travel to and from The Land Of The Free™


The very fact that U.S. citizens can be arbitrarily placed on a no-fly list, without due process or even a charge, is appalling.
2013-02-10 06:35:22 PM
3 votes:
This is bullshiat, no charges, no investigation, just saying "no, you can't fly" for no particular reason. Because they can, and fark you, fark your citizens rights, we can do what we want and we don't have to tell you why. Your constitutional rights? Your bill of rights? fark them, we do what we want. You don't have "rights" you have what they allow you to have. Same thing we did with the Japanese Americans at the start of WWII, we threw them in prison for nothing more than being Japanese. No charges, just yanked out of their homes and put in prison for no reason. We did it because we can. Ill just leave this here.

Link
2013-02-10 06:11:17 PM
3 votes:

Arthur Jumbles: Travel by car to Mexico and fly out from there?


Border Patrol would stop him at the border and question him for 12 hours as to why he didn't simply fly back to Quatar. And then they would notify the Mexican government that a person on a no-fly list was seeking to enter Mexico.
2013-02-10 04:14:02 PM
3 votes:

NutWrench: This no-fly shiat needs to go to the Supreme Court. Then we can find out once and for all just how much freedom we really have to travel to and from The Land Of The Free™


I have little faith in the Court doing the right thing.
2013-02-10 02:27:12 PM
3 votes:
Travel by car to Mexico and fly out from there?
2013-02-10 11:38:25 PM
2 votes:

HotWingAgenda: He came back on a temporary basis to visit the family he left behind in the US.  His home now is Qatar, which although not part of some modern axis of evil, is still a bit too close to hotspots like Yemen, Lebanon, Syria, etc., for comfort.  He's got a valid complaint in that he hasn't been charged with anything, but if some bureaucrat was only aware if him through his movements, he would look suspicious as hell.


Exactly.

He's a black muslim from a country we consider an ally. Definitely suspicious.

Re-read your comment and realize how goddamn stupid it is.
2013-02-10 09:59:59 PM
2 votes:
My husband has "Mohamed" in his name. It's next to impossible for him to get anything government related done bc he's on a list, apparently. It's farking ridiculous and downright racist.
2013-02-10 09:08:56 PM
2 votes:

jdamaral: I know we all hate the TSA and no-fly lists and these stories seemingly pop up once a week. Usually it's an 8 year old who has the same initials as a wanted Al-qaeda leader or something dumb.

But I'm not going to jump to crazy conclusions here. Maybe he's on the list for a non-total-BS reason. I'm not saying he's some terrorist agent or something but perhaps his job in Qatar is linked to some shady stuff. Who knows?


Yeah, I doubt that. I also doubt this is any deliberate attempt to do anything to "Muslims" or "black Muslims" or anyone in particular; although I'll believe there's some effort to bother CAIR members just because. I've been saying for weeks now, you reap what you sow, and here it is again. The US bought into this "War on Terror" shiat, built up (or allowed to be built) a huge bureaucracy to enforce it, and now we've got it and it's doing what bureaucracies do: F*ck up people's lives because they can. Or because somebody lost the clearance this guy got given when he came back into the country. Or someone said "WTF? This guy is black, he can't really have been cleared!" Or some petty myrmidon was feeling pissy and decided to throw all the clearances his boss granted into the shredder. Or whatever.

There are a million reasons why this crap happens, none of which involve a massive government conspiracy to deliberately sabotage our rights. They DO involve a massive government apathy to let lapses happen because it's easier to let them go and let the regional office deal with them on an ad hoc basis than try to correct the system from the top down; the effect is the same and we should worry about it more, instead of theorizing about coverups and conspiracies. Because it's a lot harder to fix.
2013-02-10 08:23:35 PM
2 votes:

Popcorn Johnny: No system is perfect, doesn't mean it should be done away with.


Lists make us safe?

Hmm... No.    Hunting down our enemies and putting them on trial (or killing them) is what makes us safe. 
Lists allow bureaucrats to expediently harass and punish people we don't have the justification to arrest.
Its about circumventing due process.

This entire setup is a threat to principles of the remaining system.
It must be done away with.
2013-02-10 07:47:37 PM
2 votes:

HotWingAgenda: He served honorably in the Air Force... and then immediately left the country to permanently live in the Middle East?  That article was tl;dr, but hopefully there was an explanation somewhere in that limey tirade.  The government would have freaked if someone in the Air Force in the 70's or 80's had immediately moved to Russia after leaving the service.


Did you not read the article?  He left to live in a country that's our ally and home port to one of our fleets.  That's like saying that any soldier to moves to Germany after leaving the service is a traitor who shouldn't be allowed to come back to the US because he's a Nazi now.

jdamaral: But I'm not going to jump to crazy conclusions here. Maybe he's on the list for a non-total-BS reason. I'm not saying he's some terrorist agent or something but perhaps his job in Qatar is linked to some shady stuff. Who knows?


Then maybe interview him, investigate him?  Charge him?  Why let him fly in if he's so dangerous?
2013-02-10 07:23:50 PM
2 votes:

Shahab: HotWingAgenda: He served honorably in the Air Force... and then immediately left the country to permanently live in the Middle East?  That article was tl;dr, but hopefully there was an explanation somewhere in that limey tirade.  The government would have freaked if someone in the Air Force in the 70's or 80's had immediately moved to Russia after leaving the service.

Because "the middle" easy is a country? The US is not at war with "the middle east", even though it seems that way, the US carries out military missions in countries like Iraq and Afghanistan. The US has more allies in the region than countries it is militarily active in.

But again, this does not matter, if they are going to take punitive action against a US citizen they have to charge him with a crime first. That is how it works. Why is that hard for people to grasp?


A friend of mine was in the marines, and stationed in Japan. When he got out, he MOVED TO JAPAN. Because he spent the first few years of his life as an adult outside of school and away from his family there. He spoke the language. He had friends and connections there. It only seemed weird to people who were assholes.

So maybe this guy lived in Qatar, converted to Islam, then realized that going back to OK might have been MORE of a culture shock. Maybe?
2013-02-10 06:31:13 PM
2 votes:
www.safety4sea.com
2013-02-10 06:26:38 PM
2 votes:
I have to admit that when the guy in the article put forth the theory that this was someone in the FBI looking to get a little payback for embarrassing the department, there was an odd echo of credibility to it.
2013-02-10 06:14:50 PM
2 votes:
www.fishandcheese.com
Let's see the list.
2013-02-10 06:13:17 PM
2 votes:

mrlewish: Go to Canada fly to where ever.


Ha! That's just what they want him to do! He'll get to that magical area 100 miles from the border where the 4th amendment doesn't apply and they'll be able to search him without a warrant and get enough information to arrest him. Ingenious, really.
2013-02-11 01:41:55 PM
1 votes:

ZeroPly: atomicxblue: This is how we treat our vets...

No. This has nothing to do with vets. On the contrary, it's an example of a one-size-fits-all system that was not well thought out. Now it indiscriminately inconveniences vets, along with car dealers, business travelers, and 5 year olds. But it's as egalitarian as can be given the atrocious design. Would you want a system that does not hassle vets, but is still a living nightmare for many other travelers?


How about neither? A system that is not a nightmare for travellers and doesn`t hassle vets?
2013-02-11 06:27:48 AM
1 votes:

Asphyxium: You guys don't know shiat about Qatar.  It's the best damn country of the entire Middle East.  It's what happens when you get a dictator who actually cares about his people and wants to improve their lives.

It was another dark ages random M.E. country until the son of the dictator took over and changed everything.

Its average people have more money than anybody else in the world.  The government pays them shiat loads of money and it's so progressive that all the major American universities have campuses over there.

If your gonna be in the Middle East THAT is the place you WANT to be.  Also, it is stated in the article that the country maintains positive relations with the United States.

Not sure how long the good life is gonna last though, as their way of life is entirely dependent on their oil and natural gas reserves.  But hopefully they will figure something out before that runs out.


except for that whole unindentured servitude thing going on. Thats right, I said slavery.


Slavery is rampant in Qatar.
2013-02-11 12:44:52 AM
1 votes:

evil saltine: Erebus1954: It seems we are free to travel but using most publicly available forms of transportation is a privilege.

Surprisingly, conservatives are OK with the federal government telling people where they can and can't go as long as it's one of "those people".


I think you are confusing conservatives with the religious radicals controlling the Republican party. You know, the uppity ones that think they can tell you what you can do because its their religious beliefs. That has nothing to do with being conservative. Everything to do with zealotry.
2013-02-10 11:56:19 PM
1 votes:

Gyrfalcon: There are a million reasons why this crap happens, none of which involve a massive government conspiracy to deliberately sabotage our rights. They DO involve a massive government apathy to let lapses happen because it's easier to let them go and let the regional office deal with them on an ad hoc basis than try to correct the system from the top down; the effect is the same and we should worry about it more, instead of theorizing about coverups and conspiracies. Because it's a lot harder to fix.


It's not a conspiracy in the active sense.  It's just the general progression of government.  It's why I'm disgusted when people who claim to care about liberty see nothing wrong with granting the government every new power just because it would make things easier, and 'It's something good to do.'  They never consider the inevitable growth and abuse of the authority they are granting the government.
2013-02-10 11:24:37 PM
1 votes:

HotWingAgenda: He served honorably in the Air Force... and then immediately left the country to permanently live in the Middle East?  That article was tl;dr, but hopefully there was an explanation somewhere in that limey tirade.  The government would have freaked if someone in the Air Force in the 70's or 80's had immediately moved to Russia after leaving the service.


The Middle East is a big place filled with some very diverse nations, many of which the US is on good relations with, even despite post 9-11 events. Of the varied nations in the Middle East, Qatar is one of the countries the US is on better terms with.
2013-02-10 10:38:58 PM
1 votes:

macadamnut: HotWingAgenda: He served honorably in the Air Force... and then immediately left the country to permanently live in the Middle East?

If he left the country permanently, how is he here now?


He came back on a temporary basis to visit the family he left behind in the US.  His home now is Qatar, which although not part of some modern axis of evil, is still a bit too close to hotspots like Yemen, Lebanon, Syria, etc., for comfort.  He's got a valid complaint in that he hasn't been charged with anything, but if some bureaucrat was only aware if him through his movements, he would look suspicious as hell.
2013-02-10 09:35:28 PM
1 votes:

Breygon: Gyrfalcon: ... some petty myrmidon...

there's a word you don't hear often.
last/only time I'd heard it was on Myth; The Fallen Lords


It's an awesome word for the drones who work in lower-level bureaucracy. It means "ant" and comes from the army made for Achilles. He needed an endless army that would blindly do his bidding, so his mother the sea-goddess made them from ants. His Myrmidons would follow any orders and never ask questions...much like the idiots at the DMV or Post Office will demand you fill out a stack of forms just to get your driver's license renewed or a package mailed across the street.
2013-02-10 09:08:29 PM
1 votes:

jtown: ClavellBCMI: Arthur Jumbles: Travel by car to Mexico and fly out from there?

Border Patrol would stop him at the border and question him for 12 hours as to why he didn't simply fly back to Quatar. And then they would notify the Mexican government that a person on a no-fly list was seeking to enter Mexico.

Have you ever crossed the border into Mexico?  I admit it's been 3 or 4 years since I walked across but, the last time I went to Mexico, there were no government agents on either side even looking at people going into Mexico.  Every time I've walked, ridden, or driven across the border from the US into Mexico, I barely slowed down, and I've never been interrogated or had to identify myself in any way.


Took about two hours to cross into Mexico this weekend, in San Diego.
2013-02-10 08:46:01 PM
1 votes:

Krieghund: ClavellBCMI: Arthur Jumbles: Travel by car to Mexico and fly out from there?

Border Patrol would stop him at the border and question him for 12 hours as to why he didn't simply fly back to Quatar. And then they would notify the Mexican government that a person on a no-fly list was seeking to enter Mexico.

Do you know how many people you have to talk to when you cross the border heading south?

Zero.

The Border Patrol only cares if you're heading INTO the US. There is one sad and lonely guard on the Mexican side that only cares if you're bringing high end consumer electronics in.

/may not apply during manhunts for fugitive ex-LAPD officers.


I drive up to Canada to visit friends a lot. In the past couple of years I have been seeing more and more "pre checks" as you drive up to the border in Blaine. I actually don't know what agency it is, but US dudes stop cars about a half-mile short of the Canadian border. They wave a lot of cars through. Normally I get waved through but a couple of times they have stopped me and asked the usual sort of border crossing questions, like where are you going and for what purpose and shiat. I have no farking idea why they are doing this.
2013-02-10 08:37:41 PM
1 votes:

Snarcoleptic_Hoosier: It's not going to be found unconstitutional because the airlines are the ones making the list.


According to the ACLU, the TSA is in charge of maintaining the no-fly list through a secret process and airlines are required to take "appropriate action" if they encounter someone on the no-fly list trying to acquire a boarding pass.

http://aclu-wa.org/news/frequently-asked-questions-about-no-fly-list
2013-02-10 08:37:36 PM
1 votes:
I have no reason to believe that I'm on a no-fly list, and the probability that I am is near zero, I'm sure. There is no reason for me to be on one. But shiat like this makes me very wary about every flying home to the US to visit family and friends. Because I have no way of knowing whether or not I am on such a list, and the last thing I need is to be stranded over there unable to return to work, and with no means of fixing the situation.

Yeah, highly unlikely and overly paranoid. But my luck sucks. :-/
2013-02-10 08:20:07 PM
1 votes:

Popcorn Johnny: No system is perfect, doesn't mean it should be done away with.


Religion.
2013-02-10 08:17:42 PM
1 votes:

Skirl Hutsenreiter: HotWingAgenda: He served honorably in the Air Force... and then immediately left the country to permanently live in the Middle East?  That article was tl;dr, but hopefully there was an explanation somewhere in that limey tirade.  The government would have freaked if someone in the Air Force in the 70's or 80's had immediately moved to Russia after leaving the service.

But he didn't move to a country we're at war with (cold or otherwise), he moved to one of our strongest allies in the region.


They did absolutely fark us out of hosting the World Cup though, so there is that.
2013-02-10 08:01:50 PM
1 votes:

Popcorn Johnny: No system is perfect, doesn't mean it should be done away with.


No system is perfect, but few are as blatantly unconstitutional and poorly implemented as this one.

Go back to playing with your blocks and trucks.
2013-02-10 08:00:15 PM
1 votes:
No system is perfect, doesn't mean it should be done away with.
2013-02-10 07:49:56 PM
1 votes:
10 Million illegals here and the government won't do shiat about getting rid of them. 1 citizen wants to LEAVE in a legal manner and the government shiats all over itself in a panic to prevent this.

firegoat: [www.safety4sea.com image 850x553]


Yeah, because there are a ton of cruise ships at the port of Oklahoma City. Or are you suggestion that he fly to NYC or LA to grab a ship? Oops, there's that pesky 'no fly list' again. It's like this country has been run by the Golgafrincham from the B Arc for the last decade.
2013-02-10 07:49:19 PM
1 votes:
For sake of asking a loaded question: Are the rest of his family on the same list?  I know there's only one way to find out... but at least they'd be together then.

\if it weren't such a farked up society in regards to women's freedoms, we'd actually have tons more of these situations
\\hell, my great-uncle married a German girl, they made an entire musical about GIs liking Viet chicks....
2013-02-10 07:48:16 PM
1 votes:

aerojockey: The issues of the law the author brings up are valid.

But the author's just being full of himself to claim it's beyond doubt that it's a malicious persecution by the FBI.  I just think they're a bunch of incompetent boobs.


Hanlon's Razor.
2013-02-10 07:45:14 PM
1 votes:

redmid17: jdamaral: Shahab: jdamaral: I know we all hate the TSA and no-fly lists and these stories seemingly pop up once a week. Usually it's an 8 year old who has the same initials as a wanted Al-qaeda leader or something dumb.

But I'm not going to jump to crazy conclusions here. Maybe he's on the list for a non-total-BS reason. I'm not saying he's some terrorist agent or something but perhaps his job in Qatar is linked to some shady stuff. Who knows?

Who knows is exactly the point. You can defend yourself from charges that are never made. But really if there was evidence of wrong doing he would be arrested and charged. In America the government is not supposed to be able to punish you without proving you broke the law.

Yeah, I hear you. I'd be pissed if my name was on a no-fly list too. The thought that those on the no-fly list should be able to challenge their position on that list is a valid one -- and we see a lot of these cases are overturned/corrected and the person is allowed to fly after all. I'm wondering if they assessed his case and decided that he should be on a no-fly list, even after the media scrutiny originally received.

I guess the idea is that flight is a privilege, not a right, and it can be taken away in the interest of national security. Fair or foul? I don't know. But (any maybe I'm naive) I don't think the government is spending a lot of time intentionally making sure innocent citizens, particularly veterans, can't fly around at will. It's either a mistake that's fixed or a mistake that.. oh hey.. maybe that's not a mistake at all.

http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/49/40103


49 USC § 40103 - Sovereignty and use of airspace

(a)Sovereignty and Public Right of Transit.-

(1) The United States Government has exclusive sovereignty of airspace of the United States.
(2)  A citizen of the United States has a public right of transit through the navigable airspace. To further that right, the Secretary of Transportation shall consult with the Archite ...


*eats words, scampers away*
2013-02-10 07:38:01 PM
1 votes:

jdamaral: Shahab: jdamaral: I know we all hate the TSA and no-fly lists and these stories seemingly pop up once a week. Usually it's an 8 year old who has the same initials as a wanted Al-qaeda leader or something dumb.

But I'm not going to jump to crazy conclusions here. Maybe he's on the list for a non-total-BS reason. I'm not saying he's some terrorist agent or something but perhaps his job in Qatar is linked to some shady stuff. Who knows?

Who knows is exactly the point. You can defend yourself from charges that are never made. But really if there was evidence of wrong doing he would be arrested and charged. In America the government is not supposed to be able to punish you without proving you broke the law.

Yeah, I hear you. I'd be pissed if my name was on a no-fly list too. The thought that those on the no-fly list should be able to challenge their position on that list is a valid one -- and we see a lot of these cases are overturned/corrected and the person is allowed to fly after all. I'm wondering if they assessed his case and decided that he should be on a no-fly list, even after the media scrutiny originally received.

I guess the idea is that flight is a privilege, not a right, and it can be taken away in the interest of national security. Fair or foul? I don't know. But (any maybe I'm naive) I don't think the government is spending a lot of time intentionally making sure innocent citizens, particularly veterans, can't fly around at will. It's either a mistake that's fixed or a mistake that.. oh hey.. maybe that's not a mistake at all.


http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/49/40103


49 USC § 40103 - Sovereignty and use of airspace

(a)Sovereignty and Public Right of Transit.-

(1) The United States Government has exclusive sovereignty of airspace of the United States.
(2)  A citizen of the United States has a public right of transit through the navigable airspace. To further that right, the Secretary of Transportation shall consult with the Architectural and Transportation Barriers Compliance Board established under section 502 of the Rehabilitation Act of 1973 (29 U.S.C. 792) before prescribing a regulation or issuing an order or procedure that will have a significant impact on the accessibility of commercial airports or commercial air transportation for handicapped individuals.
2013-02-10 07:21:11 PM
1 votes:

firegoat: [CruiseLiner.jpg]



Maybe you didn't read the article linked to in TFA:  Man on no fly list takes ship, gets detained anyway.
2013-02-10 07:18:33 PM
1 votes:
if I was Dictator KrispyKritter i'd treat veterans as the farking heroes they are. anyone willing to put their putz on the line for me and comes home alive, you're getting laid. WTF is wrong with WashDc and the alphabet agencies? perhaps they are crazed. your average street cop is batshiat insane so the people in these big powerful control-alls are probably running in a Mach II with their hair on fire power trip.

my born in teh USA in her 90's MIL, wife of a (deceased) WWII vet, mom of a Viet Nam era vet was put through shiat you wouldn't believe last time she wanted to fly to visit her daughter that's in Bumblefark Mississippi. The Reds in Russia have more freedom than Americans do, comrade. just ask Putin. Hitler is looking at the Fearless Leaders of America from his grave with admiration.

/ this is why we can't have nice things
// I swear to God I'll turn this car around and we'll go straight home, don't think I won't
2013-02-10 06:45:04 PM
1 votes:
I'm just confused that the government considers this guy such a danger that they want to prevent his ass from  leaving the country?!??For fark's sake, if he so dangerous AND he wants to leave, by all means put him on the next available military transport and get him out.
2013-02-10 06:35:15 PM
1 votes:

ClavellBCMI: Arthur Jumbles: Travel by car to Mexico and fly out from there?

Border Patrol would stop him at the border and question him for 12 hours as to why he didn't simply fly back to Quatar. And then they would notify the Mexican government that a person on a no-fly list was seeking to enter Mexico.


Have you ever crossed the border into Mexico?  I admit it's been 3 or 4 years since I walked across but, the last time I went to Mexico, there were no government agents on either side even looking at people going into Mexico.  Every time I've walked, ridden, or driven across the border from the US into Mexico, I barely slowed down, and I've never been interrogated or had to identify myself in any way.
2013-02-10 06:31:01 PM
1 votes:
I dunno. That this is being reported in The Guardian and the timeline involves CAIR makes me think there might be a little more to the story.
2013-02-10 06:10:42 PM
1 votes:
Go to Canada fly to where ever.
2013-02-10 05:43:50 PM
1 votes:
If you look like you'll commit a crime, guess who won't be allowed to fly.

/I kid, but now I feel dirty
//actually have a reason for this or let him fly
///What bothers me more is his kids may not be allowed to see grandma
2013-02-10 03:11:29 PM
1 votes:
A Muslim from Oklahoma. Sounds suspicious to me.
 
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