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(Terre Haute Tribune Star)   Catholic college founded in 1840 decides to offer online classes. Dept of Education: "that'll be $42 million dollars because you're like DeVry now"   (tribstar.com) divider line 102
    More: Sad, online learning, DeVry, Higher Education Act, Office of the Inspector General, U.S. Department of Education, Noblesville, Title IV, accreditation  
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15849 clicks; posted to Main » on 10 Feb 2013 at 6:46 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-02-10 03:28:24 PM
Well, actually, according to the article:

A federal audit says St. Mary-of-the-Woods College should return $42 million in loans and grants made to students between 2005 and 2010, something the college plans to challenge.

The Office of the Inspector General (OIG) of the U.S. Department of Education says the college's students, both on campus and distance education, should not have received Title IV federal financial aid.

The audit says the college's distance learning programs did not meet the regulatory definition of "telecommunications courses" and should instead have been categorized as "correspondence" courses.
The college disagrees and says its accrediting agency has designated its distance programs as telecommunications.


Further down:

According to the audit report, under the Higher Education Act of 1965, "an institution is not eligible to participate in the Title IV programs if 50 percent or more of its students were enrolled in correspondence courses during its latest complete award year. The college considered its programs to be offered in either on-campus or telecommunications formats. It did not consider any of its programs to be offered through correspondence. However, based on our review of the College's documentation and interviews with college officials and students, we concluded that courses were in fact offered in a correspondence format."

Therein lies the crux of the matter. The number of students who are essentially doing correspondence classes, as opposed to actually putting butts in seats, and their classification for qualifying for aid funds for those students.
 
2013-02-10 03:30:31 PM
They're screwing more than boys out of their money?

/here all week and all that, I hear the veal's pretty good
 
2013-02-10 04:32:57 PM
I've read the article several times and don't get what the point is.

Feds demand money back. Therefore students have not paid for their classes. So the school will need to charge the students.

This does nothing to the school but should hammer the students very well.
 
2013-02-10 04:35:26 PM

DanZero: They're screwing more than boys out of their money?

/here all week and all that, I hear the veal's pretty good


That's funny because all Catholics are child molesters!!
 
2013-02-10 05:11:05 PM
Without reading this derp, I'm going to assume that the college violated the Program Participation Agreement, which very very clearly lays out what degree granting or certificate granting programs the the school can offer ED funding for, and where the facilities are physically located.

Adding an online program to your school is fine. Offering students in that program federal loans and grants requires advance certification from the Department of Education.

By the way, DeVry University is fully certified by the ED, because they went through the proper steps.

My last employer, a 150 year old research university in Boston, just had the same screw up- they were offering funding to certificate programs without adding those programs to the PPA.

That's not allowed, for OBVIOUS reasons.
 
2013-02-10 06:49:24 PM

Donnchadha: DanZero: They're screwing more than boys out of their money?

/here all week and all that, I hear the veal's pretty good

That's funny because all Catholics are child molesters!!


I thought it was just the clergy...
 
2013-02-10 06:50:53 PM

what_now: My last employer, a 150 year old research university in Boston, just had the same screw up- they were offering funding to certificate programs without adding those programs to the PPA.


So how did it turn out for them?
 
2013-02-10 06:51:52 PM

what_now: Without reading this derp, I'm going to assume that the college violated the Program Participation Agreement, which very very clearly lays out what degree granting or certificate granting programs the the school can offer ED funding for, and where the facilities are physically located.

Adding an online program to your school is fine. Offering students in that program federal loans and grants requires advance certification from the Department of Education.

By the way, DeVry University is fully certified by the ED, because they went through the proper steps.

My last employer, a 150 year old research university in Boston, just had the same screw up- they were offering funding to certificate programs without adding those programs to the PPA.

That's not allowed, for OBVIOUS reasons.


So are you going to read the article?
 
2013-02-10 06:53:11 PM
The hell is a telecommunications course if not a correspondence course?
 
2013-02-10 06:54:50 PM
Catholic college... Lol
 
2013-02-10 06:57:49 PM

Donnchadha: DanZero: They're screwing more than boys out of their money?

/here all week and all that, I hear the veal's pretty good

That's funny because all Catholics are child molesters!!


hey! i've moved on to inappropriately touching animals as well. give me credit.

/ and i'm starting to give my neighbors evergreens the eye as well
 
2013-02-10 06:59:12 PM

edmo: students have not paid for their classes. So the school will need to charge the students.

This does nothing to the school but should hammer the students very well.


Unless the school does the right thing and eats the expense.

Prolly too Christian for them, though
 
2013-02-10 07:00:31 PM

Donnchadha: DanZero: They're screwing more than boys out of their money?

/here all week and all that, I hear the veal's pretty good

That's funny because all Catholics are child molesters!!


Those who cannot do, teach.
 
2013-02-10 07:01:43 PM

zorlack7: Catholic college... Lol


There's over 1,300 of them in the world, and they pretty much invented the idea back in Medieval times; what's wrong with that?
 
2013-02-10 07:03:16 PM
"I'm a little angry," said Dottie King, college president.

You wouldn't like her when she's angry.
 
2013-02-10 07:04:23 PM
Is this where Rudy went?  I was trying to make a joke about Rudy, Te'o and this pile being a bunch of liars but I couldn't make it work.
 
2013-02-10 07:05:10 PM
ask the Pope to sell off some gaudy relics to pay for it
 
2013-02-10 07:05:45 PM
Don't eat the veal.
 
2013-02-10 07:07:19 PM

jaytkay: edmo: students have not paid for their classes. So the school will need to charge the students.

This does nothing to the school but should hammer the students very well.

Unless the school does the right thing and eats the expense.

Prolly too Christian for them, though


Eats the expense from what?  They either charge the past students and screw them over, or take it from their endowments and screw over current and future students.  This isn't a for profit corporation where they can take a loss on profits and cover it.  Either way, someone is getting screwed.
 
2013-02-10 07:09:44 PM

GilRuiz1: zorlack7: Catholic college... Lol

There's over 1,300 of them in the world, and they pretty much invented the idea back in Medieval times; what's wrong with that?


So they are to blame for all the student loan mess then.
 
2013-02-10 07:10:21 PM

edmo: I've read the article several times and don't get what the point is.

Feds demand money back. Therefore students have not paid for their classes. So the school will need to charge the students.

This does nothing to the school but should hammer the students very well.


Tracking down and suing $42 million worth of alums is going to be expensive, if even possible, and will alienate almost all of them. This is definitely a massive problem for the school.
 
2013-02-10 07:13:29 PM
I trust the DOE will also refund all the loan payments made by these students, and cancel their remaining debt once it gets its $42 million in hand too.
 
2013-02-10 07:17:38 PM
Is the fact that the college is Catholic and old supposed to make me feel any sympathy I might otherwise not?
 
2013-02-10 07:18:45 PM

flak attack: Eats the expense from what? They either charge the past students and screw them over, or take it from their endowments and screw over current and future students. This isn't a for profit corporation where they can take a loss on profits and cover it. Either way, someone is getting screwed.


??

How would a university "charge the past students "?

And by your definition, any expense to the school is an unfair charge to students.

Amazing how people leap out of the woodwork to defend child rape. Unbelievable.
 
2013-02-10 07:19:02 PM

Donnchadha: DanZero: They're screwing more than boys out of their money?

/here all week and all that, I hear the veal's pretty good

That's funny because all Catholics are child molesters!!


Nah, they just support an organization that explicitly protects pedophiles. And yes, they should feel terrible for it.
 
2013-02-10 07:23:21 PM

SacriliciousBeerSwiller: Donnchadha: DanZero: They're screwing more than boys out of their money?

/here all week and all that, I hear the veal's pretty good

That's funny because all Catholics are child molesters!!

Nah, they just support an organization that explicitly protects pedophiles. And yes, they should feel terrible for it.


Feeling bad about that wouldn't be humble enough.  Feeling bad would be prideful and that's a deadly sin.  Because pride is much more dangerous than lust, bearing false witness, adultery, sloth and dancing.
 
2013-02-10 07:38:38 PM

jaytkay: edmo: students have not paid for their classes. So the school will need to charge the students.

This does nothing to the school but should hammer the students very well.

Unless the school does the right thing and eats the expense.

Prolly too Christian for them, though


Known as turning the other cheeks.
 
2013-02-10 07:40:44 PM
Wow. The persecution card was played early in this thread. Bravo!
 
2013-02-10 07:41:38 PM

GilRuiz1: zorlack7: Catholic college... Lol

There's over 1,300 of them in the world, and they pretty much invented the idea back in Medieval times; what's wrong with that?


LOL
 
2013-02-10 07:43:39 PM

GilRuiz1: zorlack7: Catholic college... Lol

There's over 1,300 of them in the world, and they pretty much invented the idea back in Medieval times; what's wrong with that?


Uh, the Middle East might want to have a word with you on that. The Arabs were doing college long before them. And the Greeks.
 
2013-02-10 07:44:04 PM

GilRuiz1: zorlack7: Catholic college... Lol

There's over 1,300 of them in the world, and they pretty much invented the idea back in Medieval times; what's wrong with that?


Nope. LIke most things in the European Renaissance, they were catching up to the Muslims.
 
2013-02-10 07:47:11 PM

SpdrJay: Donnchadha: DanZero: They're screwing more than boys out of their money?

/here all week and all that, I hear the veal's pretty good

That's funny because all Catholics are child molesters!!

I thought it was just the clergy...


Why do you think the non-clergy are known as laity?
 
2013-02-10 07:49:40 PM

Donnchadha: DanZero: They're screwing more than boys out of their money?

/here all week and all that, I hear the veal's pretty good

That's funny because all Catholics are child molesters!!


Well, no but it's still funny anyway.
 
2013-02-10 07:49:54 PM
The scam of on-line schools is that nobody, nobody, will accept their credits. If you take DeVry intending to transfer to a state school...LOL. No. That will not happen. They will tell you this, often in the finest print they can. People biatch about regular, normal schools. That's totally fine. But they are nothing compared to private, for profit schools that look for ways to screw students. It's bad.
 
2013-02-10 07:52:59 PM
I spent the entire article wondering what the U.S. Department of Energy (DOE) had to do with it.  Editor should do the editor thing and check things like acronyms (Dept Education is shortened as ED).

//pedantic
////but I really was confused for a bit.
 
2013-02-10 07:55:02 PM

what_now: Without reading this derp, I'm going to assume that the college violated the Program Participation Agreement, which very very clearly lays out what degree granting or certificate granting programs the the school can offer ED funding for, and where the facilities are physically located.

Adding an online program to your school is fine. Offering students in that program federal loans and grants requires advance certification from the Department of Education.

By the way, DeVry University is fully certified by the ED, because they went through the proper steps.

My last employer, a 150 year old research university in Boston, just had the same screw up- they were offering funding to certificate programs without adding those programs to the PPA.

That's not allowed, for OBVIOUS reasons.


As someone who spent 6 years working at an indy art school who busted its ass to get accreditation and (and the school shut down entirely after this semester for economic reasons), this.

Suck my Batsuit owning Farker cock for-profit and/or half-ass educators.
 
2013-02-10 07:57:08 PM
I took a correspondence course in about the only way it could possibly have been useful. I needed specific knowledge that would enable me to pass a test that would qualify me for a kick-ass job, for which there were openings.
 
2013-02-10 07:58:59 PM
I also wonder if this is one of those private brick and mortar schools that was struggling and was bought by one of the for profit education companies simply to use it's name in connection with their online degrees.
 
2013-02-10 08:01:14 PM
I bet this law is from the 1920s.
 
2013-02-10 08:03:37 PM

moothemagiccow: The hell is a telecommunications course if not a correspondence course?


Correspondence class: read stuff, take a test, return it whenever you're done. Used to be through the mail, hence the name. Now the tests are usually online because its cheaper. Basically requires no faculty involvement.
Online course: read stuff, interact with instructor and other students, take a test during a window of time.  Actually involves faculty.
 
2013-02-10 08:08:29 PM
So, because the college was founded in 1840, it doesn't have to follow rules like everyone else?
 
2013-02-10 08:13:36 PM

moothemagiccow: The hell is a telecommunications course if not a correspondence course?


Hard to say from article but I would say that live interaction (video conference) would be more telecommunications while correspondence would be self learning of material.
 
2013-02-10 08:16:01 PM

hartzdog: So, because the college was founded in 1840, it doesn't have to follow rules like everyone else?


i286.photobucket.com
 
2013-02-10 08:18:02 PM
Universities were indeed a medieval development, but that doesn't make them necessarily Christian. They were, in fact, guilds, universitas being the word for guild. The two first were in Bologna and Paris. The one in Bologna was a student guild, formed to make the sure the professors completed their classes as contracted. The one in Paris was a teacher guild, formed in an attempt to offset the power of the Bishop of Paris, who has the power of approval for the faculty at the local cathedral school.

There were, of course, instititions of learning in the ancient and Islamic worlds, just as medieval Europe had monastic and cathedral schools. But if were talking about universities, that's medieval Europe.
 
2013-02-10 08:31:04 PM

Lattices aren't Distributive: moothemagiccow: The hell is a telecommunications course if not a correspondence course?

Correspondence class: read stuff, take a test, return it whenever you're done. Used to be through the mail, hence the name. Now the tests are usually online because its cheaper. Basically requires no faculty involvement.
Online course: read stuff, interact with instructor and other students, take a test during a window of time.  Actually involves faculty.


This. I've taken classes where telecommunicating was possible. It involved going to a telepresence conference room set up so you could watch the lecture in real time and ask questions that the rest of the class could hear and the professor could respond to. You need to be able to hear lectures in real time and interact with the professor.
 
2013-02-10 08:37:54 PM
Subby said "dollars" twice.
 
2013-02-10 08:44:43 PM

greentea1985: Lattices aren't Distributive: moothemagiccow: The hell is a telecommunications course if not a correspondence course?

Correspondence class: read stuff, take a test, return it whenever you're done. Used to be through the mail, hence the name. Now the tests are usually online because its cheaper. Basically requires no faculty involvement.
Online course: read stuff, interact with instructor and other students, take a test during a window of time.  Actually involves faculty.

This. I've taken classes where telecommunicating was possible. It involved going to a telepresence conference room set up so you could watch the lecture in real time and ask questions that the rest of the class could hear and the professor could respond to. You need to be able to hear lectures in real time and interact with the professor.


Doesn't have to be real time - discussions like the one we're in right now have many of the same benefits.
 
2013-02-10 09:00:44 PM

zorlack7: Catholic college... Lol


I know, seriously? Of course you could go to one of the colleges and universities of higher learning started by other mainstream religions that have sprung up throughout the many years if you choose to.
 
2013-02-10 09:02:15 PM

Agatha Crispy: zorlack7: Catholic college... Lol

I know, seriously? Of course you could go to one of the colleges and universities of higher learning started by other mainstream religions that have sprung up throughout the many years if you choose to.


Or you could go to a secular institution in your state for much cheaper tuition and receive the same quality of education minus being forced to pay for mandatory extra classes to make up the "religion" requirements of their degrees.

But hey. It's your religious freedom. If you want to spend more for no added value, more power to you. P.T. Barnum was right.
 
2013-02-10 09:08:52 PM

BronyMedic: Agatha Crispy: zorlack7: Catholic college... Lol

I know, seriously? Of course you could go to one of the colleges and universities of higher learning started by other mainstream religions that have sprung up throughout the many years if you choose to.

Or you could go to a secular institution in your state for much cheaper tuition and receive the same quality of education minus being forced to pay for mandatory extra classes to make up the "religion" requirements of their degrees.

But hey. It's your religious freedom. If you want to spend more for no added value, more power to you. P.T. Barnum was right.


I agree. But where are the Jewish, Shinto, Buddist, and Islamic colleges?
 
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