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(NPR)   Fifty years later, does Betty Friedan's "Feminine Mystique" still resonate, or has it become too broad?   (npr.org) divider line 41
    More: Followup, Betty Friedan, Gail Collins, Hanna Rosin, discrimination in the workplace, manifestos, World War II America  
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4614 clicks; posted to Main » on 10 Feb 2013 at 1:02 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-02-10 01:09:29 PM
4 votes:

DamnYankees: Feminism is one of those things which was so successful in completely transforming the way society views itself and its goal was so broadly achieved and became so 'normal' (mostly), that the idea of having a movement for it become a weird thing and therefore garnered a lot of hate.


Were you not paying attention during the last Presidential election? There seem to be a lot of pretty paleo politicians around who still want to dicktate to women.
2013-02-10 11:48:06 AM
4 votes:
Feminism is one of those things which was so successful in completely transforming the way society views itself and its goal was so broadly achieved and became so 'normal' (mostly), that the idea of having a movement for it become a weird thing and therefore garnered a lot of hate.
2013-02-10 01:27:51 PM
3 votes:
The Betty Friedan who came from a well-off family and went to private schools all her life then married 'wealthy' and had maids cleaning her houses and basically had the world by the tail then wrote a book biatching how tough it is to be a woman?That Betty Friedan?

Bullshiat is bullshiat especially from a hypocrite.
2013-02-10 01:23:10 PM
3 votes:

Generation_D: First wave feminism.

Wrecking relationships since 1963.


Feminism not only diminishes women's choices but denigrates the very gender it is supposed to protect.

The roll of "full-time mom" is both a "career choice" that is more unavailable to women and is a career-choice that is denigrated by the "feminist" movement.

Note also that by denigrating the idea of a "full-time dad" or "house-dad", feminism is also saying that a homemaker role is one to be looked down upon.

In the end, there are no favors for women in feminism.
2013-02-10 01:22:46 PM
3 votes:
If you ladies would like to be treated as equals, you must be willing to give up the privileged status you enjoy in so many aspects of life.
2013-02-10 10:45:34 AM
3 votes:
First wave feminism.

Wrecking relationships since 1963.
2013-02-10 03:28:21 PM
2 votes:

GF named my left testicle thundercles: MadAzza: GF named my left testicle thundercles: [i1172.photobucket.com image 724x390]

"The only job for men is sludge digger; women smile constantly while doing housework."

one of the largest problems with feminism in general is the fact that they always look at the top of society, find that there are mostly men there, and then declare that society is set up to benefit men. The problem is that feminists will look up and see CEOs, presidents, nobles, generals, and whatever but they do not also look down at the bottom of society. if you do look down, you will find mostly men there too. about 80% of the homeless are men, almost all of combat deaths are men, almost all of uncomfortable and dangerous jobs are done by men, etc. feminists talk about the glass ceiling but they never ever talk about the glass floor. Its a major criticism because there are way more homeless people and prisoners and men in the army than there are CEOs and presidents. the entire idea that society benefits men came from looking at maybe the top 10% of society, and that is not a representative sample.

anyway here is a link to some really good ideas about that. http://www.psy.fsu.edu/~baumeistertice/goodaboutmen.htm


Something else that they ignore is suicide rates. If men are so privileged, and life is great for them, why do they commit suicide at a rate nearly four times larger than women, and why does almost no one seem to care?
2013-02-10 03:13:32 PM
2 votes:

dersk: WhippingBoy: dersk: No, no, no - someone posted about how all the feminists, including someone in the thread, only care about equal rights and stuff like that because they were once insulted. When I challenged the poster to say who he was talking about, he detumesced.

He's talking about me.

Here is what I said:

Actually, I've found this to be true about a number of self-described "feminists": upper-middle class background, highly educated, high-five or six figure income, life of privilege... yet somehow, they're "oppressed" because one guy in a bar once called them "fat".

I most certainly did not claim "all" feminists.

But you did call out someone in the thread and then detumesce when I challenged you.


I don't understand your big words. If you mean that I called someone out in this thread, and then failed to identify her when challenged, then yes, I did do that. It was intellectually(?) dishonest of me to do that; I certainly deserve your scorn.

However, is it really that hard to believe that some people who claim "oppression" aren't nearly as "oppressed" as they'd like you to think?
2013-02-10 02:02:22 PM
2 votes:

WhippingBoy: dersk: WhippingBoy: dersk: WhippingBoy: douchebag/hater: The Betty Friedan who came from a well-off family and went to private schools all her life then married 'wealthy' and had maids cleaning her houses and basically had the world by the tail then wrote a book biatching how tough it is to be a woman?That Betty Friedan?

Bullshiat is bullshiat especially from a hypocrite.

Actually, I've found this to be true about a number of self-described "feminists": upper-middle class background, highly educated, high-five or six figure income, life of privilege... yet somehow, they're "oppressed" because one guy in a bar once called them "fat".

Name one.

One has posted in this thread.

And that would be...?

I'd rather not get banned.


Translation: "Uh, crap. I got called on it, and I can't actually name anyone who has posted in the thread who meets that condition. I better give a weak excuse, and then name some vague strawman that no one can directly quote to show me wrong."

How about any PhD level professor of "Gender Studies" working at a major university?
2013-02-10 01:56:39 PM
2 votes:

DS1970: Generation_D: First wave feminism.

Wrecking relationships since 1963.

Feminism not only diminishes women's choices but denigrates the very gender it is supposed to protect.

The roll of "full-time mom" is both a "career choice" that is more unavailable to women and is a career-choice that is denigrated by the "feminist" movement. Note also that by denigrating the idea of a "full-time dad" or "house-dad", feminism is also saying that a homemaker role is one to be looked down upon.


... said the Straw Feminist. We don't know her, she's from Canada. But she totally exists, we'll just have to trust you.
2013-02-10 01:43:16 PM
2 votes:

WhippingBoy: douchebag/hater: The Betty Friedan who came from a well-off family and went to private schools all her life then married 'wealthy' and had maids cleaning her houses and basically had the world by the tail then wrote a book biatching how tough it is to be a woman?That Betty Friedan?

Bullshiat is bullshiat especially from a hypocrite.

Actually, I've found this to be true about a number of self-described "feminists": upper-middle class background, highly educated, high-five or six figure income, life of privilege... yet somehow, they're "oppressed" because one guy in a bar once called them "fat".


Name one.
2013-02-10 01:40:10 PM
2 votes:

stiletto_the_wise: Women in the workplace is why things can now cost twice what they used to, putting single-income households at a disadvantage. Discuss.


Yes, because look at how great the economies are in countries where women aren't allowed to work outside the home.

You do know that women have always worked, don't you? It's just now employers have to at least pretend to pay them a similar wage to men. What do you think happened to women whose husbands died or left them?
2013-02-10 01:34:39 PM
2 votes:

douchebag/hater: The Betty Friedan who came from a well-off family and went to private schools all her life then married 'wealthy' and had maids cleaning her houses and basically had the world by the tail then wrote a book biatching how tough it is to be a woman?That Betty Friedan?

Bullshiat is bullshiat especially from a hypocrite.


The wealthy and privileged tend to have the time and resources to take on causes and be listened to where a poor person does not.

/This is not surprising to most people
2013-02-10 01:30:31 PM
2 votes:

douchebag/hater: The Betty Friedan who came from a well-off family and went to private schools all her life then married 'wealthy' and had maids cleaning her houses and basically had the world by the tail then wrote a book biatching how tough it is to be a woman?That Betty Friedan?

Bullshiat is bullshiat especially from a hypocrite.


Check your privilege.
2013-02-10 01:08:13 PM
2 votes:
Well, let's be honest.  A masculine Mystique wouldn't look quite as alluring painted blue and kicking Hugh Jackman's ass.
2013-02-10 01:02:16 PM
2 votes:
Yes, because Fark is the place I come to to discuss the relevance of earlier waves of feminism.
2013-02-10 06:38:25 PM
1 votes:

WhippingBoy: Am I a troll, or am I a vile bigot peddling my wares under the guise of feminism?


... but you repeat yourself.
2013-02-10 05:43:30 PM
1 votes:

rustypouch: Something else that they ignore is suicide rates. If men are so privileged, and life is great for them, why do they commit suicide at a rate nearly four times larger than women, and why does almost no one seem to care?


I'm not sure who you think "they" are, or who constitutes " almost no one," but in fact books have been written on the time.  It is being studied.

In fact, one of the books mentioned in the article, The End of Men, discusses the problem at length.

As has already been pointed out in this thread, the goal of feminism is to create equality, not to subjugate men or create a matriarchy.  So, yes, concern about how these changes will affect men is part of feminism, and feminists are aware of and concerned about them.
2013-02-10 05:34:42 PM
1 votes:

austerity101: WhippingBoy: austerity101: WhippingBoy: austerity101: WhippingBoy: austerity101: WhippingBoy: I didn't misidentify her; those were meant to be two separate examples (one general and one specific) of privileged individuals who claim that they're oppressed.

It is quite possible to be privileged in some aspects and oppressed in others.

Of course it is. But it's as applicable to men as it is to women.

Surely you're not suggesting that any oppression enacted on men is equivalent to that enacted on women.

It all depends on what men or what women you're talking about.

We're talking about them en masse.

I can't honestly answer that question without some parameters. For example, is being (historically) expected to fight and die in war a form of oppression or privilege?

Does that ambiguous example somehow even out all of the far less ambiguous forms of privilege and oppression present in history and in the present?


I don't know. I honestly don't. You obviously expect me to say that men have been more "oppressed" so you can jump down my throat and show me how "wrong" I am. It just seems to me that throughout history (including the present day) people in general have had it pretty rough for different and varying reasons.

In any case, these constant "us vs them", "men vs women", "feminists vs the ignorant masses" have only left me weary and depressed. I give up. You win.
2013-02-10 04:57:17 PM
1 votes:

austerity101: WhippingBoy: austerity101: WhippingBoy: austerity101: WhippingBoy: I didn't misidentify her; those were meant to be two separate examples (one general and one specific) of privileged individuals who claim that they're oppressed.

It is quite possible to be privileged in some aspects and oppressed in others.

Of course it is. But it's as applicable to men as it is to women.

Surely you're not suggesting that any oppression enacted on men is equivalent to that enacted on women.

It all depends on what men or what women you're talking about.

We're talking about them en masse.


I can't honestly answer that question without some parameters. For example, is being (historically) expected to fight and die in war a form of oppression or privilege?
2013-02-10 04:56:58 PM
1 votes:

rustypouch: GF named my left testicle thundercles: MadAzza: GF named my left testicle thundercles: [i1172.photobucket.com image 724x390]

"The only job for men is sludge digger; women smile constantly while doing housework."

one of the largest problems with feminism in general is the fact that they always look at the top of society, find that there are mostly men there, and then declare that society is set up to benefit men. The problem is that feminists will look up and see CEOs, presidents, nobles, generals, and whatever but they do not also look down at the bottom of society. if you do look down, you will find mostly men there too. about 80% of the homeless are men, almost all of combat deaths are men, almost all of uncomfortable and dangerous jobs are done by men, etc. feminists talk about the glass ceiling but they never ever talk about the glass floor. Its a major criticism because there are way more homeless people and prisoners and men in the army than there are CEOs and presidents. the entire idea that society benefits men came from looking at maybe the top 10% of society, and that is not a representative sample.

anyway here is a link to some really good ideas about that. http://www.psy.fsu.edu/~baumeistertice/goodaboutmen.htm

Something else that they ignore is suicide rates. If men are so privileged, and life is great for them, why do they commit suicide at a rate nearly four times larger than women, and why does almost no one seem to care?


Men SUCCEED in their suicide attempts more often than women because men *tend* to use direct, violent methods, such as handguns. Women tend to use passive methods, such as pills, which have a higher failure rate (the woman doesn't take enough, she's found before she expires, etc.).

Again, sex roles and socialization determine the outcome.

I don't think anyone is saying "life is so great for men." That's a gross oversimplification. Equality, by definition, goes both ways.
2013-02-10 04:05:42 PM
1 votes:

austerity101: WhippingBoy: austerity101: WhippingBoy: I didn't misidentify her; those were meant to be two separate examples (one general and one specific) of privileged individuals who claim that they're oppressed.

It is quite possible to be privileged in some aspects and oppressed in others.

Of course it is. But it's as applicable to men as it is to women.

Surely you're not suggesting that any oppression enacted on men is equivalent to that enacted on women.


It all depends on what men or what women you're talking about.
2013-02-10 03:41:39 PM
1 votes:

WhippingBoy: dersk: WhippingBoy: dersk:
I don't understand your big words. If you mean that I called someone out in this thread, and then failed to identify her when challenged, then yes, I did do that. It was intellectually(?) dishonest of me to do that; I certainly deserve your scorn.


That's because it's an unrelated medical term that he's trying to shoehorn into a sentence it doesn't fit in.  Someone is trying to sound a bit more intelligent than they are and doing a poor job of it.
2013-02-10 03:38:25 PM
1 votes:

dersk: It's not hard to believe that there's a woman somewhere who self-identifies as a feminist because she was insulted once. But it doesn't jibe with my experience. Every person I know who self-identifies as a feminist just thinks that women should be treated fairly and men shouldn't collectively be assholes. And I suspect that's where the vast majority are coming from.


I completely understand and respect that. However, in my experience, women are treated fairly and the vast majority of men are not assholes. Perhaps I'm seeing the world through rose-coloured glasses, or am willfully ignorant, I don't know. I just find it offensive, for example, when some "feminist" gets on his or her soapbox and tells me to "stop sexually assaulting women" when the very concept is abhorrent and utterly and completely repulsive to me. When you constantly hear about how "bad" the menz are, you tend to go on the defensive a bit.
2013-02-10 03:23:19 PM
1 votes:

dersk: By the way, using the phrase 'a number of' or 'some say' or other words like that is really weak beer. Perhaps you were intending to troll, but I usually read that as 'Here's what I think, and I have no evidence or specific examples, but...'...


Fair enough. I wasn't attempting to troll, and I was trying to be as honest as possible. Feminism, like every other movement, has its share of self-serving individuals who are only seeking personal gain and have no interest in justice or equality. There seems to be a disturbing trend to decry or label a "minsogynst" anyone who expresses scepticism of any aspect of the feminist movement, or expresses an opinion that differs from "the party line". This strikes me as intellectually dishonest (not to mention highly suspicious). I'm trying to provide an alternate voice (admittedly, sometimes exaggerated or extreme) in order to force the discussion and keep people "honest".

Merely my opinion, of course; at this time I have no evidence or specific examples...
2013-02-10 03:13:06 PM
1 votes:

dersk: WhippingBoy: dersk: No, no, no - someone posted about how all the feminists, including someone in the thread, only care about equal rights and stuff like that because they were once insulted. When I challenged the poster to say who he was talking about, he detumesced.

He's talking about me.

Here is what I said:

Actually, I've found this to be true about a number of self-described "feminists": upper-middle class background, highly educated, high-five or six figure income, life of privilege... yet somehow, they're "oppressed" because one guy in a bar once called them "fat".

I most certainly did not claim "all" feminists.

But you did call out someone in the thread and then detumesce when I challenged you.


By the way, using the phrase 'a number of' or 'some say' or other words like that is really weak beer. Perhaps you were intending to troll, but I usually read that as 'Here's what I think, and I have no evidence or specific examples, but...'...
2013-02-10 03:09:44 PM
1 votes:

MadAzza: GF named my left testicle thundercles: [i1172.photobucket.com image 724x390]

"The only job for men is sludge digger; women smile constantly while doing housework."


one of the largest problems with feminism in general is the fact that they always look at the top of society, find that there are mostly men there, and then declare that society is set up to benefit men. The problem is that feminists will look up and see CEOs, presidents, nobles, generals, and whatever but they do not also look down at the bottom of society. if you do look down, you will find mostly men there too. about 80% of the homeless are men, almost all of combat deaths are men, almost all of uncomfortable and dangerous jobs are done by men, etc. feminists talk about the glass ceiling but they never ever talk about the glass floor. Its a major criticism because there are way more homeless people and prisoners and men in the army than there are CEOs and presidents. the entire idea that society benefits men came from looking at maybe the top 10% of society, and that is not a representative sample.

anyway here is a link to some really good ideas about that. http://www.psy.fsu.edu/~baumeistertice/goodaboutmen.htm
2013-02-10 03:06:01 PM
1 votes:

dersk: No, no, no - someone posted about how all the feminists, including someone in the thread, only care about equal rights and stuff like that because they were once insulted. When I challenged the poster to say who he was talking about, he detumesced.


He's talking about me.

Here is what I said:

Actually, I've found this to be true about a number of self-described "feminists": upper-middle class background, highly educated, high-five or six figure income, life of privilege... yet somehow, they're "oppressed" because one guy in a bar once called them "fat".

I most certainly did not claim "all" feminists.
2013-02-10 02:54:29 PM
1 votes:

Generation_D: First wave feminism.

Wrecking relationships since 1963.


Yes, because God forbid women should stand up for themselves and demand equality.

I knew before I click this thread would be full of hostile, defensive men, but I've still gotta hand it to you for your alacrity.  Right off the bat.

I will say, so that this post does more than just point out what a defensive idiot Generation D is (and really, you don't need me to tell you that), that it's very interesting to read The Feminine Mystique now, 50 years later.  It's encouraging to see how far we've come, and enlightening to see how far we still have to go.
2013-02-10 02:33:44 PM
1 votes:

Shakespeare's Sister: To teach my students about argument, I use this: Women should or should not be required to register for selective service. Once I explain what it is, most of my female students argue yes, they should, and my male students argue no, they should not. I have been using this example for 10 years, and the answers almost always mirror this. I have yet to understand.

I read the book. It was awful.

There is a big difference between feminist and feminazi.

I do admit, I like having doors opened for me, help on with my coat, and chairs pulled out. There is something about that old fashioned behavior that makes me willing to put out. The entire time my fiance and I have been together I have not opened my own door, put on my coat without help, pulled out my own chair, or had to lift anything heavy. However, I do pay for dates. I have no problem with that at all. I joke with him that I paid, so he has to put out. He smiles and agrees.


Oh, apparently YOU'RE the one who's bitter because someone called you fat in a bar once. I can just sense the rage seeping between the lines of your post.
2013-02-10 02:32:23 PM
1 votes:

WhippingBoy: bighairyguy: What's Corporate America paying for a Women's Studies graduate these days?

What they're worth, I suspect.


It's really bizarre how concerned you are with what somebody somewhere chooses to study.
2013-02-10 02:30:24 PM
1 votes:
To teach my students about argument, I use this: Women should or should not be required to register for selective service. Once I explain what it is, most of my female students argue yes, they should, and my male students argue no, they should not. I have been using this example for 10 years, and the answers almost always mirror this. I have yet to understand.

I read the book. It was awful.

There is a big difference between feminist and feminazi.

I do admit, I like having doors opened for me, help on with my coat, and chairs pulled out. There is something about that old fashioned behavior that makes me willing to put out. The entire time my fiance and I have been together I have not opened my own door, put on my coat without help, pulled out my own chair, or had to lift anything heavy. However, I do pay for dates. I have no problem with that at all. I joke with him that I paid, so he has to put out. He smiles and agrees.
2013-02-10 02:13:29 PM
1 votes:

cookiefleck: i guess i don't understand the outright hatred i've seen from some people in this thread over feminism.


"hatred" = someone who has a different opinion than me
2013-02-10 02:12:38 PM
1 votes:

Spaced Cowboy: And there we have it. All the usual little white knights have shown up. I believe we can call this a wrap fellas. Might as well shut the door now before they start screaming in their manliest soprano voice about how you shouldn't "insert whatever random feminist shiat they've chosen to whine about today."

Yesterday it was 50 year old statues, I wonder what they shoved up their ass today to get them going...


You seem awfully anally fixated for an alpha male.
2013-02-10 02:06:39 PM
1 votes:

HairBolus: TFA has extensive quotes from Jessica Valenti, the good looking "modern feminist" who attended a luncheon with Bill Clinton and stood in front of him in a pose to accentuate her breasts. Maybe she was just trying to entrap him

[www.nospeedbumps.com image 450x320]


Christ, you're dumb.

Longer version: she's turned to the side, her shoulders aren't really pitched far back, her back isn't particularly arched. She's only accentuating her breasts in the sense that she has breasts.
2013-02-10 01:51:33 PM
1 votes:

WhippingBoy: How about any PhD level professor of "Gender Studies" working at a major university?


Why did you put Gender Studies in quote marks. Are you quoting someone?
2013-02-10 01:46:11 PM
1 votes:

Ross E. Krushan: Why is there never any discussion about masculinists?


We do, but the preferred term is "pick up artist".
2013-02-10 01:43:27 PM
1 votes:

Urbn: douchebag/hater: The Betty Friedan who came from a well-off family and went to private schools all her life then married 'wealthy' and had maids cleaning her houses and basically had the world by the tail then wrote a book biatching how tough it is to be a woman?That Betty Friedan?

Bullshiat is bullshiat especially from a hypocrite.

The wealthy and privileged tend to have the time and resources to take on causes and be listened to where a poor person does not.

/This is not surprising to most people


That's not cool pointing this out and generally deflating the arguments of a lot of people in this thread who are too pussy to admit they merely want women back in the kitchen.
2013-02-10 01:31:21 PM
1 votes:

DS1970: In the end, there are no favors for women in feminism.


I thought it was about equality, not doing one side favors.
2013-02-10 01:19:54 PM
1 votes:
Tomatoes are disgusting so I don't blame women for not wanting to be called tomatoes.
2013-02-10 01:19:48 PM
1 votes:

dersk: DamnYankees: Feminism is one of those things which was so successful in completely transforming the way society views itself and its goal was so broadly achieved and became so 'normal' (mostly), that the idea of having a movement for it become a weird thing and therefore garnered a lot of hate.

Were you not paying attention during the last Presidential election? There seem to be a lot of pretty paleo politicians around who still want to dicktate to women.


And a lot of them want to dick men, preferably anonymously.
 
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