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(NBC News)   Your father died while waiting 30 minutes for an ambulance to show up? That will be $780.85   (usnews.nbcnews.com) divider line 103
    More: Asinine, Oxon Hill, District of Columbia, Prince George's County, ambulances  
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8808 clicks; posted to Main » on 10 Feb 2013 at 1:46 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-02-10 02:57:34 AM

fusillade762: DanZero: Not asinine. They still require payment.

So send the bill to the father. I'm sure he'll get right on it. Why make the son pay?


just curious, are you against the estate tax?
 
2013-02-10 02:59:31 AM

starsrift: ladyfortuna: Gah.

/punctuate, or 'apply punctuation'

I changed the sentence and tense went to hell.

.......seriously......that was messed.....


Wine. Copious amounts of wine. Also have you looked at the clock? ~_~

/TO BED
 
2013-02-10 02:59:38 AM

starsrift: ladyfortuna: Gah.

/punctuate, or 'apply punctuation'

I changed the sentence and tense went to hell.

.......seriously......that was messed.....


.........can we make this............a new meme........
sersleh you guys.......... you don't even know
the fun we gonna have with this....
 
2013-02-10 03:00:33 AM

BronyMedic: It appears the delay was on DC's side, not with the ambulance that responded from Prince George's County.


I wonder if there was any missed communication that wasn't documented in the records they viewed. I regularly listen to the fire/ems/police freqs in my town and will occasionally hear a lost request for service. The neighboring county sends a call to our ems but it doesn't get picked up by the dispatcher. 10-20 mins later they follow up, the dispatch says the request never came through and at that moment he/she sends out an ambulance to the location.
 
2013-02-10 03:03:15 AM

HotWingAgenda: starsrift: ladyfortuna: Gah.

/punctuate, or 'apply punctuation'

I changed the sentence and tense went to hell.

.......seriously......that was messed.....

.........can we make this............a new meme........
sersleh you guys.......... you don't even know
the fun we gonna have with this....


25.media.tumblr.com
 
2013-02-10 03:05:47 AM
Sounds like a dispatcher error. How am I not suprised
 
2013-02-10 03:06:06 AM

Tenatra: BronyMedic: It appears the delay was on DC's side, not with the ambulance that responded from Prince George's County.

I wonder if there was any missed communication that wasn't documented in the records they viewed. I regularly listen to the fire/ems/police freqs in my town and will occasionally hear a lost request for service. The neighboring county sends a call to our ems but it doesn't get picked up by the dispatcher. 10-20 mins later they follow up, the dispatch says the request never came through and at that moment he/she sends out an ambulance to the location.


That's the thing. DC Fire's radio system is widely regarded as the most advanced digital public safety system in the United States, if not the world. Everything is redundant, and recorded. If there was a call for help put out that wasn't answered, I find it hard to believe that a few minutes later it wouldn't be repeated, or someone wouldn't have picked up their cell phone and direct dialed dispatch.

Someone, clearly, by this dropped the ball. The question is who, not if, at this point.
 
2013-02-10 03:22:32 AM

Active introvert: Sounds like a dispatcher error.


no it doesn't.
 
2013-02-10 04:04:29 AM
Our return value on the taxes we pay sucks compared to other countries. Maybe if we had a few less wars and aircraft carriers pointlessly cruising around the world then we could afford to have medical services come in an emergency.
 
2013-02-10 04:20:52 AM
There are a lot of failures here, and I'm not going to defend any of them, but if it's your day, it's your day.
 
2013-02-10 04:37:05 AM

MayoSlather: Our return value on the taxes we pay sucks compared to other countries. Maybe if we had a few less wars and aircraft carriers pointlessly cruising around the world then we could afford to have medical services come in an emergency.


What does the article you linked to have to do with "return value" on our taxes?  Try showing some evidence that France, Germany, or Italy's emergency health care systems are any better than ours due to the amount of taxes we pay.
 
2013-02-10 04:41:11 AM

LeoffDaGrate: MayoSlather: Our return value on the taxes we pay sucks compared to other countries. Maybe if we had a few less wars and aircraft carriers pointlessly cruising around the world then we could afford to have medical services come in an emergency.

What does the article you linked to have to do with "return value" on our taxes?  Try showing some evidence that France, Germany, or Italy's emergency health care systems are any better than ours due to the amount of taxes we pay.


They're better because they're federally standardized across the board. England, Canada, France, etc all have federally standardized levels of education (which is higher than 99% of the United States), training, and equipment, and they are treated as a third service seperate from Fire and Law Enforcement.
 
2013-02-10 04:48:16 AM
I don't know how it works in DC, but where I live an engine or truck company has all of the capabilities of an ambulance save the stretcher. In a pinch that can and have loaded a patient in a litter and transported them on the engine.
 
2013-02-10 05:16:13 AM
Stupid liberal assholes. Pay the money and shut up.
 
2013-02-10 05:33:05 AM

Tenatra: BronyMedic: It appears the delay was on DC's side, not with the ambulance that responded from Prince George's County.

I wonder if there was any missed communication that wasn't documented in the records they viewed. I regularly listen to the fire/ems/police freqs in my town and will occasionally hear a lost request for service. The neighboring county sends a call to our ems but it doesn't get picked up by the dispatcher. 10-20 mins later they follow up, the dispatch says the request never came through and at that moment he/she sends out an ambulance to the location.


That is why proper radio etiquette is important. Call your unit number and wait for a response before relaying a message.
 
2013-02-10 05:38:20 AM

LeoffDaGrate: MayoSlather: Our return value on the taxes we pay sucks compared to other countries. Maybe if we had a few less wars and aircraft carriers pointlessly cruising around the world then we could afford to have medical services come in an emergency.

What does the article you linked to have to do with "return value" on our taxes?  Try showing some evidence that France, Germany, or Italy's emergency health care systems are any better than ours due to the amount of taxes we pay.


In most of those cases fees are limited or nonexistent for ems as part of socialized healthcare, and no I am not going to spend the next 15 minutes digging up research to appease you.
 
2013-02-10 06:42:09 AM

log_jammin: fusillade762: DanZero: Not asinine. They still require payment.

So send the bill to the father. I'm sure he'll get right on it. Why make the son pay?

just curious, are you against the estate tax?


No. Get boostrappy instead of relying on your ancestor's money.
 
2013-02-10 06:45:53 AM

FNG: If you take a taxi or drive to the ER you spend countless hours trying to find parking and then waiting.


no you don't. you drive right up to the ambulance entrance ,get out and yell for help.
 
2013-02-10 06:57:51 AM

BronyMedic: And I'm also curious why DC is sending them the bill for the ambulance, and NOT Prince George's County.


I'm curious as to why the ambulance costs money at all. There should be no billing process to patients who legitimately needed EMS services, and DOUBLY so to the family of patients who didn't make it.

But that's a societal issue, and has nothing to to with the EMS people.

The world could be so much better with such a minor change as government healthcare.
 
2013-02-10 07:06:28 AM

BronyMedic: Smeggy Smurf: BronyMedic: Smeggy Smurf: They wouldn't if we started hanging them for fraud.  They'll either run out of morons or get the idea that fraud isn't viable any more.

I'm curious to hear your justification that this was not just bad taste, but fraud.

Billing for a service not rendered is fraud.  You wouldn't pay for a beer you were never served would you?

Again, I'm curious to hear how you feel services weren't rendered? There was an ALS Pumper on scene within 9 minutes (The national standard is 10 minutes) and delivering care, and a neighboring county sent a mutual aid ambulance which transported the patient to the hosptial after a substantially incompetent delay on the part of DC, but they did render care. I'm willing to bet that what happened was the mutual aid agency billed DC for the response, and DC in turn passed the bill to the patient like they normally do through their contracted billing agency without knowing the details of the call.

While it's rather a dick move, and poor PR to send the family a bill after their substantial delay in obtaining transport, there's too little information in the article to ascertain whether the delay was the cause of his death, or if it was something that was not preventable in the first place.

However, it's not fraud.


fraud /frôd/ Noun 1. Wrongful or criminal deception intended to result in financial or personal gain.
2. A person or thing intended to deceive others, typically by unjustifiably claiming or being credited with accomplishments or qualities.

The criminal deception being that transport and care was provided for a living patient (the patient had already expired and was no longer in need of transport, but a coroner thanks to incompetence on the EMS personnel side). The financial gain aspect is self-explanatory. It doesn't matter if DC was aware of the circumstances of the call or not when they received the bill, they issued the bill and are therefore on the hook for the fraud, but the other county who billed DC for services not rendered are just as culpable and fraudulent.

/wouldn't pay the cable or sat company for something i wasn't receiving either...
//bill was for the ambulance, not the fire truck
 
2013-02-10 07:07:48 AM

Hobodeluxe: FNG: If you take a taxi or drive to the ER you spend countless hours trying to find parking and then waiting.

no you don't. you drive right up to the ambulance entrance ,get out and yell for help.


won't help down here... the ambulance entrance is not within earshot of anyone inside.
 
2013-02-10 07:15:32 AM

fusillade762: log_jammin: fusillade762: DanZero: Not asinine. They still require payment.

So send the bill to the father. I'm sure he'll get right on it. Why make the son pay?

just curious, are you against the estate tax?

No. Get boostrappy instead of relying on your ancestor's money.


then you're kind of a hypocrite.
 
2013-02-10 07:19:04 AM

HindiDiscoMonster: BronyMedic: Smeggy Smurf: BronyMedic: Smeggy Smurf: They wouldn't if we started hanging them for fraud.  They'll either run out of morons or get the idea that fraud isn't viable any more.

I'm curious to hear your justification that this was not just bad taste, but fraud.

Billing for a service not rendered is fraud.  You wouldn't pay for a beer you were never served would you?

Again, I'm curious to hear how you feel services weren't rendered? There was an ALS Pumper on scene within 9 minutes (The national standard is 10 minutes) and delivering care, and a neighboring county sent a mutual aid ambulance which transported the patient to the hosptial after a substantially incompetent delay on the part of DC, but they did render care. I'm willing to bet that what happened was the mutual aid agency billed DC for the response, and DC in turn passed the bill to the patient like they normally do through their contracted billing agency without knowing the details of the call.

While it's rather a dick move, and poor PR to send the family a bill after their substantial delay in obtaining transport, there's too little information in the article to ascertain whether the delay was the cause of his death, or if it was something that was not preventable in the first place.

However, it's not fraud.

fraud /frôd/ Noun 1. Wrongful or criminal deception intended to result in financial or personal gain.
2. A person or thing intended to deceive others, typically by unjustifiably claiming or being credited with accomplishments or qualities.

The criminal deception being that transport and care was provided for a living patient (the patient had already expired and was no longer in need of transport, but a coroner thanks to incompetence on the EMS personnel side). The financial gain aspect is self-explanatory. It doesn't matter if DC was aware of the circumstances of the call or not when they received the bill, they issued the bill and are therefore on the hook for the fraud, but the other county who billed DC for services not rendered are just as culpable and fraudulent.

/wouldn't pay the cable or sat company for something i wasn't receiving either...
//bill was for the ambulance, not the fire truck


This assumes EMS personnel can pronounce someone dead. The family, who has less medical experience than EMS, definitely can't.

(Hint: in most places they can't and need their medical direction to decide on treatment in extreme
circumstances. Since this is a cardiac case, the odds were against the patient, but the odds weren't zero so required the patient to be transported. Unless you're seeing in the article where the patient showed signs of rigor which would be difficult after thirty minutes.)
 
2013-02-10 07:40:05 AM

HindiDiscoMonster: fraud /frôd/ Noun 1. Wrongful or criminal deception intended to result in financial or personal gain.
2. A person or thing intended to deceive others, typically by unjustifiably claiming or being credited with accomplishments or qualities.

The criminal deception being that transport and care was provided for a living patient (the patient had already expired and was no longer in need of transport, but a coroner thanks to incompetence on the EMS personnel side). The financial gain aspect is self-explanatory. It doesn't matter if DC was aware of the circumstances of the call or not when they received the bill, they issued the bill and are therefore on the hook for the fraud, but the other county who billed DC for services not rendered are just as culpable and fraudulent.

/wouldn't pay the cable or sat company for something i wasn't receiving either...
//bill was for the ambulance, not the fire truck


I'm going to go with, you are being slotted with their service for the allotted time. It didn't make it to your person within the time but you still used their services and kept their vehicle from going anywhere else. Have you ever seen how a daycare works? To enroll your child in a daycare would mean that there is one less seat in that specific room. It doesn't matter if your child goes just one day a week, you will still be paying the full rate as if the child was still in the room that whole week since no one else can fill that same seat.
 
2013-02-10 07:55:39 AM

HindiDiscoMonster: The criminal deception being that transport and care was provided for a living patient (the patient had already expired and was no longer in need of transport, but a coroner thanks to incompetence on the EMS personnel side).


EMS cannot pronounce defenitive death in the field in the absence of specific criteria (such as decapitation, decomposition, or injury incompatable with life.) They still have to transport for pronouncement, and even then they continue resuscitatory efforts in the field until arrival at ER or told to do so by an ER physician on the line.

Unless he had a DNR or was pronounced by a personal physician he did not "expire" in the field.

So yes. Care was provided. There was no criminal deception in this event.

HindiDiscoMonster: The financial gain aspect is self-explanatory. It doesn't matter if DC was aware of the circumstances of the call or not when they received the bill, they issued the bill and are therefore on the hook for the fraud, but the other county who billed DC for services not rendered are just as culpable and fraudulent.


I'm sorry, but you have no idea what you're talking about. If Prince George County transported the patient while providing ALS care, they are legally allowed to bill the organization that called for them to come for mutual aid according to ALS 1 Emergency, or even ALS 2 rates if they provided resusictative care. These are outlined in the CMS rules for Fee Reimbursement.

My point was that while it was in bad taste to write the bill to the family after everything that happened, it is not even close to being illegal or a fraud to do so.
 
2013-02-10 08:23:56 AM

Tenatra: HindiDiscoMonster: fraud /frôd/ Noun 1. Wrongful or criminal deception intended to result in financial or personal gain.
2. A person or thing intended to deceive others, typically by unjustifiably claiming or being credited with accomplishments or qualities.

The criminal deception being that transport and care was provided for a living patient (the patient had already expired and was no longer in need of transport, but a coroner thanks to incompetence on the EMS personnel side). The financial gain aspect is self-explanatory. It doesn't matter if DC was aware of the circumstances of the call or not when they received the bill, they issued the bill and are therefore on the hook for the fraud, but the other county who billed DC for services not rendered are just as culpable and fraudulent.

/wouldn't pay the cable or sat company for something i wasn't receiving either...
//bill was for the ambulance, not the fire truck

I'm going to go with, you are being slotted with their service for the allotted time. It didn't make it to your person within the time but you still used their services and kept their vehicle from going anywhere else. Have you ever seen how a daycare works? To enroll your child in a daycare would mean that there is one less seat in that specific room. It doesn't matter if your child goes just one day a week, you will still be paying the full rate as if the child was still in the room that whole week since no one else can fill that same seat.


go with whatever helps you sleep at night.

/still wouldn't pay for something i didn't get.
 
2013-02-10 08:25:01 AM

BronyMedic: lack of warmth: How to learn the hard way, 30 minutes or it's free, does not apply to emergency services.

I had to read the article.

FTFA: According to records, the 911 call was made at 1:25 a.m. A DC fire truck arrived only nine minutes later, but an ambulance was unavailable. According to Prince George's County Fire & EMS records, DC Fire did not call Prince George's County for assistance until 1:47 a.m. One minute later, the county dispatched an ambulance from Oxon Hill to go to Ford's home in Southeast Washington. It arrived at 1:58 a.m.

It appears the delay was on DC's side, not with the ambulance that responded from Prince George's County. And I'm also curious why DC is sending them the bill for the ambulance, and NOT Prince George's County. It was a mutual aid response, and at that point all of the billing should have been handled by them.

But this isn't the first time that DC Fire Department has had "total failures". They can't get enough people to staff their units, and don't have enough units to cover their area - the same problem Detroit is having right now - and they have to rely on outside EMS agencies to cover the slack through mutual aid. This is the same department that cut all their Paramedic ALS units at night because they didn't have enough coverage to maintain them.


Why so serious, it was a joke?  This is Fark, in case you forgot.
Also, you may have forgotten, most people don't care about the intricate reasons why an ambulance is delayed or why a bill is sent out that they don't believe they should pay.  Kind of like a coworker that lost her mother, refused to pay for the helicopter ride her mother took to another hospital before passing on.  I saw why she was billed, services rendered in best attempt to save a life and helicopters cost money, however she felt that since her mother died she shouldn't have to pay.  Coincidentally, she was my boss at a pizza place.
 
2013-02-10 08:25:09 AM

BronyMedic: HindiDiscoMonster: The criminal deception being that transport and care was provided for a living patient (the patient had already expired and was no longer in need of transport, but a coroner thanks to incompetence on the EMS personnel side).

EMS cannot pronounce defenitive death in the field in the absence of specific criteria (such as decapitation, decomposition, or injury incompatable with life.) They still have to transport for pronouncement, and even then they continue resuscitatory efforts in the field until arrival at ER or told to do so by an ER physician on the line.

Unless he had a DNR or was pronounced by a personal physician he did not "expire" in the field.

So yes. Care was provided. There was no criminal deception in this event.

HindiDiscoMonster: The financial gain aspect is self-explanatory. It doesn't matter if DC was aware of the circumstances of the call or not when they received the bill, they issued the bill and are therefore on the hook for the fraud, but the other county who billed DC for services not rendered are just as culpable and fraudulent.

I'm sorry, but you have no idea what you're talking about. If Prince George County transported the patient while providing ALS care, they are legally allowed to bill the organization that called for them to come for mutual aid according to ALS 1 Emergency, or even ALS 2 rates if they provided resusictative care. These are outlined in the CMS rules for Fee Reimbursement.

My point was that while it was in bad taste to write the bill to the family after everything that happened, it is not even close to being illegal or a fraud to do so.


I guess it wasn't obvious, but i was playing devil's advocate there...

/still wouldn't pay for something i didn't get... (life saving treatment, or an attempt at such)
 
2013-02-10 08:26:25 AM

Summoner101: HindiDiscoMonster: BronyMedic: Smeggy Smurf: BronyMedic: Smeggy Smurf: They wouldn't if we started hanging them for fraud.  They'll either run out of morons or get the idea that fraud isn't viable any more.

I'm curious to hear your justification that this was not just bad taste, but fraud.

Billing for a service not rendered is fraud.  You wouldn't pay for a beer you were never served would you?

Again, I'm curious to hear how you feel services weren't rendered? There was an ALS Pumper on scene within 9 minutes (The national standard is 10 minutes) and delivering care, and a neighboring county sent a mutual aid ambulance which transported the patient to the hosptial after a substantially incompetent delay on the part of DC, but they did render care. I'm willing to bet that what happened was the mutual aid agency billed DC for the response, and DC in turn passed the bill to the patient like they normally do through their contracted billing agency without knowing the details of the call.

While it's rather a dick move, and poor PR to send the family a bill after their substantial delay in obtaining transport, there's too little information in the article to ascertain whether the delay was the cause of his death, or if it was something that was not preventable in the first place.

However, it's not fraud.

fraud /frôd/ Noun 1. Wrongful or criminal deception intended to result in financial or personal gain.
2. A person or thing intended to deceive others, typically by unjustifiably claiming or being credited with accomplishments or qualities.

The criminal deception being that transport and care was provided for a living patient (the patient had already expired and was no longer in need of transport, but a coroner thanks to incompetence on the EMS personnel side). The financial gain aspect is self-explanatory. It doesn't matter if DC was aware of the circumstances of the call or not when they received the bill, they issued the bill and are therefore on the hook ...


cdn.ientry.com
/dead is dead
 
2013-02-10 08:42:09 AM

HindiDiscoMonster: BronyMedic: Smeggy Smurf: BronyMedic: Smeggy Smurf: They wouldn't if we started hanging them for fraud.  They'll either run out of morons or get the idea that fraud isn't viable any more.

I'm curious to hear your justification that this was not just bad taste, but fraud.

Billing for a service not rendered is fraud.  You wouldn't pay for a beer you were never served would you?

Again, I'm curious to hear how you feel services weren't rendered? There was an ALS Pumper on scene within 9 minutes (The national standard is 10 minutes) and delivering care, and a neighboring county sent a mutual aid ambulance which transported the patient to the hosptial after a substantially incompetent delay on the part of DC, but they did render care. I'm willing to bet that what happened was the mutual aid agency billed DC for the response, and DC in turn passed the bill to the patient like they normally do through their contracted billing agency without knowing the details of the call.

While it's rather a dick move, and poor PR to send the family a bill after their substantial delay in obtaining transport, there's too little information in the article to ascertain whether the delay was the cause of his death, or if it was something that was not preventable in the first place.

However, it's not fraud.

fraud /frôd/ Noun 1. Wrongful or criminal deception intended to result in financial or personal gain.
2. A person or thing intended to deceive others, typically by unjustifiably claiming or being credited with accomplishments or qualities.

The criminal deception being that transport and care was provided for a living patient (the patient had already expired and was no longer in need of transport, but a coroner thanks to incompetence on the EMS personnel side). The financial gain aspect is self-explanatory. It doesn't matter if DC was aware of the circumstances of the call or not when they received the bill, they issued the bill and are therefore on the hook for the fraud, but ...


If the EMS responder worked a cardiac arrest, and the patient still died, the EMS agency can bill insurance and/or the estate for a response fee and any supplies used. They can not bill for a transport or mileage. Response time is not relavant.

/long time EMS billing consultant
 
2013-02-10 08:43:08 AM

HindiDiscoMonster: Summoner101: HindiDiscoMonster: BronyMedic: Smeggy Smurf: BronyMedic: Smeggy Smurf: They wouldn't if we started hanging them for fraud.  They'll either run out of morons or get the idea that fraud isn't viable any more.

I'm curious to hear your justification that this was not just bad taste, but fraud.

Billing for a service not rendered is fraud.  You wouldn't pay for a beer you were never served would you?

Again, I'm curious to hear how you feel services weren't rendered? There was an ALS Pumper on scene within 9 minutes (The national standard is 10 minutes) and delivering care, and a neighboring county sent a mutual aid ambulance which transported the patient to the hosptial after a substantially incompetent delay on the part of DC, but they did render care. I'm willing to bet that what happened was the mutual aid agency billed DC for the response, and DC in turn passed the bill to the patient like they normally do through their contracted billing agency without knowing the details of the call.

While it's rather a dick move, and poor PR to send the family a bill after their substantial delay in obtaining transport, there's too little information in the article to ascertain whether the delay was the cause of his death, or if it was something that was not preventable in the first place.

However, it's not fraud.

fraud /frôd/ Noun 1. Wrongful or criminal deception intended to result in financial or personal gain.
2. A person or thing intended to deceive others, typically by unjustifiably claiming or being credited with accomplishments or qualities.

The criminal deception being that transport and care was provided for a living patient (the patient had already expired and was no longer in need of transport, but a coroner thanks to incompetence on the EMS personnel side). The financial gain aspect is self-explanatory. It doesn't matter if DC was aware of the circumstances of the call or not when they received the bill, they issued the bill and are therefore on the hook ...


/dead is dead


I find it interesting that to rebut my argument you chose a dead person in a morgue which meant the patient would have had to be pronounced by someone other than EMS personnel (ED physician, medical examiner, mortician, etc)
 
2013-02-10 08:46:31 AM
Look, if you order a pizza, and fill yourself up on potato chips while waiting and decide you don't need the pizza anymore when it gets to your door, you still gotta pay for it.
 
2013-02-10 08:47:50 AM

Summoner101: HindiDiscoMonster: Summoner101: HindiDiscoMonster: BronyMedic: Smeggy Smurf: BronyMedic: Smeggy Smurf: They wouldn't if we started hanging them for fraud.  They'll either run out of morons or get the idea that fraud isn't viable any more.

I'm curious to hear your justification that this was not just bad taste, but fraud.

Billing for a service not rendered is fraud.  You wouldn't pay for a beer you were never served would you?

Again, I'm curious to hear how you feel services weren't rendered? There was an ALS Pumper on scene within 9 minutes (The national standard is 10 minutes) and delivering care, and a neighboring county sent a mutual aid ambulance which transported the patient to the hosptial after a substantially incompetent delay on the part of DC, but they did render care. I'm willing to bet that what happened was the mutual aid agency billed DC for the response, and DC in turn passed the bill to the patient like they normally do through their contracted billing agency without knowing the details of the call.

While it's rather a dick move, and poor PR to send the family a bill after their substantial delay in obtaining transport, there's too little information in the article to ascertain whether the delay was the cause of his death, or if it was something that was not preventable in the first place.

However, it's not fraud.

fraud /frôd/ Noun 1. Wrongful or criminal deception intended to result in financial or personal gain.
2. A person or thing intended to deceive others, typically by unjustifiably claiming or being credited with accomplishments or qualities.

The criminal deception being that transport and care was provided for a living patient (the patient had already expired and was no longer in need of transport, but a coroner thanks to incompetence on the EMS personnel side). The financial gain aspect is self-explanatory. It doesn't matter if DC was aware of the circumstances of the call or not when they received the bill, they issued the bill and are therefore on the hook ...


/dead is dead

I find it interesting that to rebut my argument you chose a dead person in a morgue which meant the patient would have had to be pronounced by someone other than EMS personnel (ED physician, medical examiner, mortician, etc)


To clarify, the mortician would've received the body from one of the other two.
 
2013-02-10 08:56:48 AM

fusillade762: DanZero: Not asinine. They still require payment.

So send the bill to the father. I'm sure he'll get right on it. Why make the son pay?


This

When my uncle died at his apartment he had no immediate family and no money. Obviously, he couldn't pay the hospital or paramedic bills.

The hospital then did not look for the nearest (by distance) relative, me, and then try to bill me. So what gives in this case?
 
2013-02-10 09:07:12 AM

penguinfark: fusillade762: DanZero: Not asinine. They still require payment.

So send the bill to the father. I'm sure he'll get right on it. Why make the son pay?

This

When my uncle died at his apartment he had no immediate family and no money. Obviously, he couldn't pay the hospital or paramedic bills.

The hospital then did not look for the nearest (by distance) relative, me, and then try to bill me. So what gives in this case?


Because next to Kin assumes debts unless otherwise appointed in a will. Not necessary in your case. Most likely just to be able to have the case heard in the same jurisdiction as the hospital if needed.
 
2013-02-10 09:11:36 AM

JSam21: penguinfark: fusillade762: DanZero: Not asinine. They still require payment.

So send the bill to the father. I'm sure he'll get right on it. Why make the son pay?

This

When my uncle died at his apartment he had no immediate family and no money. Obviously, he couldn't pay the hospital or paramedic bills.

The hospital then did not look for the nearest (by distance) relative, me, and then try to bill me. So what gives in this case?

Because next to Kin assumes debts unless otherwise appointed in a will. Not necessary in your case. Most likely just to be able to have the case heard in the same jurisdiction as the hospital if needed.


Next of kin has no legal obligation to pay medical bills.
 
2013-02-10 09:22:44 AM
In my state, ambulances are a free ride, paid in full by a small surcharge on everyones electricty bills.

/ No, not one of the United States.
 
2013-02-10 09:26:46 AM

fusillade762: Next of kin are responsible for their relatives debts?


If you die flat-ass broke, no.  If you have anything to inherit, it goes to pay off debts before inheritors, so effectively.

Besides, it wasn't the dying guy who called 911, most likely.
 
2013-02-10 10:08:09 AM
Tell them to grab a Ouija Board and talk to the guy who actually owes them the money.  Best of luck.
 
2013-02-10 11:27:20 AM
To be fair the ambulance probably used $7 worth of diesel fuel going to the call. Driver and attendant probably make $12 an hour. So send them a check for $19 and call it even.
 
2013-02-10 11:45:33 AM

Uranus Is Huge!: HindiDiscoMonster: BronyMedic: Smeggy Smurf: BronyMedic: Smeggy Smurf: They wouldn't if we started hanging them for fraud.  They'll either run out of morons or get the idea that fraud isn't viable any more.

I'm curious to hear your justification that this was not just bad taste, but fraud.

Billing for a service not rendered is fraud.  You wouldn't pay for a beer you were never served would you?

Again, I'm curious to hear how you feel services weren't rendered? There was an ALS Pumper on scene within 9 minutes (The national standard is 10 minutes) and delivering care, and a neighboring county sent a mutual aid ambulance which transported the patient to the hosptial after a substantially incompetent delay on the part of DC, but they did render care. I'm willing to bet that what happened was the mutual aid agency billed DC for the response, and DC in turn passed the bill to the patient like they normally do through their contracted billing agency without knowing the details of the call.

While it's rather a dick move, and poor PR to send the family a bill after their substantial delay in obtaining transport, there's too little information in the article to ascertain whether the delay was the cause of his death, or if it was something that was not preventable in the first place.

However, it's not fraud.

fraud /frôd/ Noun 1. Wrongful or criminal deception intended to result in financial or personal gain.
2. A person or thing intended to deceive others, typically by unjustifiably claiming or being credited with accomplishments or qualities.

The criminal deception being that transport and care was provided for a living patient (the patient had already expired and was no longer in need of transport, but a coroner thanks to incompetence on the EMS personnel side). The financial gain aspect is self-explanatory. It doesn't matter if DC was aware of the circumstances of the call or not when they received the bill, they issued the bill and are therefore on the hook ...


so how much would they charge for trying to resuscitate this patient?
graphics8.nytimes.com
/response time is invalid... remember?
 
2013-02-10 11:47:08 AM

Summoner101: /dead is dead

I find it interesting that to rebut my argument you chose a dead person in a morgue which meant the patient would have had to be pronounced by someone other than EMS personnel (ED physician, medical examiner, mortician, etc)


media.tumblr.com
 
2013-02-10 12:09:38 PM

HindiDiscoMonster: Summoner101: /dead is dead

I find it interesting that to rebut my argument you chose a dead person in a morgue which meant the patient would have had to be pronounced by someone other than EMS personnel (ED physician, medical examiner, mortician, etc)

[media.tumblr.com image 400x400]

www.math4ged.com
 
2013-02-10 12:59:32 PM
I'm sure it wouldn't have anything to do with the fact DC has been run (into the ground) by
liberals forever would it?
DC  Dump
Detroit Dump
LA Dump
San Fran Dump
NYC Dump
Chicago Dump
With the exception of mayor dumberg in NYC, all those cities are run by Liberal's.  Dunceberg
is a RINO.  Hummmmm....sure it can't be because they are all liberals could it?
 
2013-02-10 01:30:19 PM

p51d007: I'm sure it wouldn't have anything to do with the fact DC has been run (into the ground) by
liberals forever would it?
DC  Dump
Detroit Dump
LA Dump
San Fran Dump
NYC Dump
Chicago Dump
With the exception of mayor dumberg in NYC, all those cities are run by Liberal's.  Dunceberg
is a RINO.  Hummmmm....sure it can't be because they are all liberals could it?


Herpaderpadoooo!
 
2013-02-10 01:34:48 PM

Summoner101: HindiDiscoMonster: Summoner101: /dead is dead

I find it interesting that to rebut my argument you chose a dead person in a morgue which meant the patient would have had to be pronounced by someone other than EMS personnel (ED physician, medical examiner, mortician, etc)

[media.tumblr.com image 400x400]
[www.math4ged.com image 653x338]


upload.wikimedia.org
/i can do this all day :)
 
2013-02-10 01:48:49 PM

p51d007: I'm sure it wouldn't have anything to do with the fact DC has been run (into the ground) by
liberals forever would it?
DC  Dump
Detroit Dump
LA Dump
San Fran Dump
NYC Dump
Chicago Dump
With the exception of mayor dumberg in NYC, all those cities are run by Liberal's.  Dunceberg
is a RINO.  Hummmmm....sure it can't be because they are all liberals could it?


Slobbering d-bags like yourself, who exhibit the typical senile crankiness associated with low testosterone, are reeeeely boring.
So take your meds grandpa.
 
2013-02-10 02:35:58 PM

Hobodeluxe: no you don't. you drive right up to the ambulance entrance ,get out and yell for help.


Still doesn't mean you are going to been seen right away
But that's OK, it means you aren't going to die.
 
2013-02-10 05:28:15 PM

Lawnchair: fusillade762: Next of kin are responsible for their relatives debts?

If you die flat-ass broke, no.  If you have anything to inherit, it goes to pay off debts before inheritors, so effectively.

Besides, it wasn't the dying guy who called 911, most likely.


Why does it matter who called 911? If I see some stranger having a heart attack and I call 911 for him am I responsible for his medical bills if he dies?


log_jammin: fusillade762: log_jammin: fusillade762: DanZero: Not asinine. They still require payment.

So send the bill to the father. I'm sure he'll get right on it. Why make the son pay?

just curious, are you against the estate tax?

No. Get boostrappy instead of relying on your ancestor's money.

then you're kind of a hypocrite.


It's hypocritical to think that neither red nor black ink should be passed on to relatives?
 
2013-02-10 05:32:07 PM
Dickens,

I'm not feeling enlightened yet.

You cant be telling me you believe the American Heart Association about CPR but not about early defibrillation? The AHA states "80-90" percent probability of survival if cardiovascular collapse is witnessed by experienced ALS provided and immediately defibrillated.  Textbook of Advanced Cardiac LIfe Support 1997 Chapter 1 Page 6.

The only really great treatment for a heart attack  in progress is an emergent balloon angioplasty. Most hospitals that can do this procedure, dont staff it 24/7. A good ambulance service can start all the drugs from aspirin to integrillin that you are likely to get in the ER, and If a Paramedic correctly identifies an acute MI with ST elevation on the 12 lead, they can phone ahead, or transmit the ECG to the ER, and have the ER alert the team that does the angioplasty... who have to get scrubbed and ready, if not woken up and called into the hospital.

Finally, if you do manage to NOT wreck while driving your dead father to the hospital, I'll be impressed.
 
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