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2013-02-09 09:57:40 PM

amquelbettamin: Pinker: The surprising decline in violence


As I said in my previous post when you were actually claiming that people were getting "less evil" (I noticed you abandoned that line pretty quick), we are imposing more order through rule of law and better enforcement through forensic science. So yes, in societies where rule of law is well enforced we are seeing a decline in violence. In places were society is in tatters the violence still runs rampant.

If this decline was due to your god's magic, don't you think he could have improved it everywhere?

Whereas, if it is due to the evolution of society combined with the improvements in forensic sciences (i.e. non-magical man), there would only be improvements where societies are stable. And, funny enough, this is the case.
 
2013-02-09 09:58:48 PM

Popular Opinion: i kind of regret that, but my reference was directed at what i consider the militant atheist types (ie worshipers of the FSM)


Nobody worships the FSM. It is a parody. So who exactly were you targeting??
 
2013-02-09 10:01:01 PM

Popular Opinion: Smgth: Popular Opinion: Smgth: Popular Opinion: while i am not religious, i have a growing dislike for the anti-religious.
i am battered daily by protestations from the FSM worshippers proclaiming the absolute disconnection between church and charity, and yet for 17 years now, I have yet to meet an atheist group at the local community center feeding the poor.
i could understand if i only worked at a few, or only at faith based centers...

atheist is another word for selfish and don't give a f*ck about anyone else. jmo.

and i don't even believe in "god".

You're certainly welcome to view the world as if your experiences are the only way the world functions. But just because you haven't seen at your community center doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_secularist_organizations

But please, continue to paint all atheists with the same brush.

i should have added some disclaimer, to be sure. sorry.
i am not saying that all atheists are not charitable, although perhaps the inference is present when the logic isn't..
there are secular groups for sure. high school groups...but nothing specifically atheist.

am i purposely being provocative (i suppose that is trolling)?
i don't think any provocation to help people less fortunate that yourself is a bad thing.

Trolling or not you said Athiest meant selfish. Which is an unsupportable statement.

And as has been said repeatedly in this thread, there's no REAL need for atheist organizations. Any more then we need an anti-Easter bunny coalition. Atheists give to charity through secular organizations because their lack of belief doesn't define them.

yeah, i kind of regret that, but my reference was directed at what i consider the militant atheist types (ie worshipers of the FSM). rather than meaning people that don't believe in a "supreme being" (or your definition) i meant those that also blame religion for pretty much everything that's gone wrong since there was such a thing.


So what you MEAN to say, is that extremists are bad. I think we (sane people) can all get behind that. I dislike proselytization in all its pernicious forms. Everyone is entitled to their opinion, just don't try and force it on others.

Extremists of every ilk make those who agree with them look bad. 'Militant' ANYTHING is a bad thing. I mean, I love animals, but PETA are psychos.

/You need to work on how you make your points. Not an insult, constructive criticism.
 
2013-02-09 10:08:26 PM

Farking Canuck: Popular Opinion: i kind of regret that, but my reference was directed at what i consider the militant atheist types (ie worshipers of the FSM)

Nobody worships the FSM. It is a parody. So who exactly were you targeting??


i'm not sure that it is possible to explain my reference if you don't get it already.
again (ime) those that "worship" the flying spaghetti monster means those that demean any and all facets of religion, and believe that anyone that believes is god, or goes to church must be some sort of retard.
in retrospect, since most politicians claim to go to church, this might not be far off base.
 
2013-02-09 10:09:08 PM

amquelbettamin: Pinker: The surprising decline in violence


P.S. Did you actually watch this video? It completely supports my position that there was no magic involved in the 'civilization' of society that has resulted in the reduction in violence. In fact, he has an entire section on how horrifically violent the bible is.
 
2013-02-09 10:13:53 PM

Farking Canuck: amquelbettamin: Pinker: The surprising decline in violence

As I said in my previous post when you were actually claiming that people were getting "less evil" (I noticed you abandoned that line pretty quick), we are imposing more order through rule of law and better enforcement through forensic science. So yes, in societies where rule of law is well enforced we are seeing a decline in violence. In places were society is in tatters the violence still runs rampant.

If this decline was due to your god's magic, don't you think he could have improved it everywhere?

Whereas, if it is due to the evolution of society combined with the improvements in forensic sciences (i.e. non-magical man), there would only be improvements where societies are stable. And, funny enough, this is the case.


As I age I have started to equate evil with disorder and good with order. I see things like the violence at Newtown as being an act of great disorder. The ripples of that sort of act will cause even more hurt, pain, and disorder. I see acts of great kindness as instilling order. For example If someone is able to get someone the help they need to sober up that can make great ripples of good and order in that person's life and those around him rather than abuse and neglect. Ripples from a good act like that or the prevention of a suicide can span generations.

I have begun to equate good with order and I believe that with time more good will come of humanity. I believe with time, order and God's will will prevail in the hands of man. It will take time, but humanity is essentially good and that is because we have a likeness with God. In that sense our world is a work in progress. No one said magic.
 
2013-02-09 10:17:12 PM

Farking Canuck: amquelbettamin: Pinker: The surprising decline in violence

P.S. Did you actually watch this video? It completely supports my position that there was no magic involved in the 'civilization' of society that has resulted in the reduction in violence. In fact, he has an entire section on how horrifically violent the bible is.


Yes, but, then God sent either a profet (if you are a Jew or Muslim) or himself (if you are a Christian) to tell man he was doing it wrong. What God wanted was for us to love and forgive each other. That message has been ignored throughout time by most, but does not negate that this is His will. The section of that talk supports my point as well.
 
2013-02-09 10:20:14 PM

Popular Opinion: Farking Canuck: Popular Opinion: i kind of regret that, but my reference was directed at what i consider the militant atheist types (ie worshipers of the FSM)

Nobody worships the FSM. It is a parody. So who exactly were you targeting??

i'm not sure that it is possible to explain my reference if you don't get it already.
again (ime) those that "worship" the flying spaghetti monster means those that demean any and all facets of religion, and believe that anyone that believes is god, or goes to church must be some sort of retard.
in retrospect, since most politicians claim to go to church, this might not be far off base.


You are taking the arguments that people make on Fark and painting people with them. It isn't fair.

I am vary anti-religion myself as I feel it preys on the vulnerable and it pushes cave-man morals on to modern society. I will argue this on Fark with religious people who will defend the actions of the child raping catholic church or orthodox jews spitting on a women because she dared to take pictures on the sabbath.

Neither side of the argument necessarily does this in their day to day life. Members of my family are religious and I do not feel they are stupid.

Your assumptions are like assuming a boxer beats the snot out of everyone he meets because that's what he does in the ring. Fark is a sparring ring for topics like this ... if you don't want to go a few rounds don't get in the ring.
 
2013-02-09 10:20:45 PM

Lsherm: FloydA: Dead for Tax Reasons:

it seems like he just went there to point and laugh at how wrong the people there were, not to actually think or see the other side.

Yep.

Two people see something that they don't completely understand.  The atheist will usually say "I don't know," and if s/he is motivated to do so, will go on to try to find an explanation.  The theist will usually say "must be God" and cease all further speculation, because s/he has already come to an answer that satisfies him/her.

I find this stereotypical summation, typical of liberal bigotry, amusingly ironic.

Please, you two, tell us more about how "those people" think.  Make sure to fluff yourselves up as the enlightened class at the same time.  Extra bonus points for ridiculous generalizations and/or complete ignorance baout the people you are criticizing.


So you're complaining about a generalization, while making one about liberals *in the same sentence*. Smooth.
 
2013-02-09 10:21:53 PM
I hate to bug out, but I must. I'll read for ten more minutes without comment so I don't try to steal the last word.
 
2013-02-09 10:23:10 PM
This thread has taken a turn that would make Poe(of Poe's Law) dizzy and nauseous.
 
2013-02-09 10:24:53 PM

amquelbettamin: As I age I have started to equate evil with disorder and good with order. I see things like the violence at Newtown as being an act of great disorder. The ripples of that sort of act will cause even more hurt, pain, and disorder. I see acts of great kindness as instilling order. For example If someone is able to get someone the help they need to sober up that can make great ripples of good and order in that person's life and those around him rather than abuse and neglect. Ripples from a good act like that or the prevention of a suicide can span generations.

I have begun to equate good with order and I believe that with time more good will come of humanity. I believe with time, order and God's will will prevail in the hands of man. It will take time, but humanity is essentially good and that is because we have a likeness with God. In that sense our world is a work in progress. No one said magic.


Well equating order with good and vise versa is a common, if not necessarily correct, position. But then you had to go and throw the god stuff in there where there is absolutely no justification.

Man has invented over 1000 gods ... which one do you feel is responsible and why?

/by definition, god is magic. When you say "god did it" you are saying "it was magic"
 
2013-02-09 10:29:06 PM

amquelbettamin: I strongly feel God inside me and all around people I meet. I also see and feel evil or the opposite of God at times.


Wow.
 
2013-02-09 10:34:39 PM

ciberido: FloydA: Somacandra:

Wow. If only your incredibly stupid

Well that was helpful. Thank you for advancing the conversation in a useful and effective way.

Well, I disagree with you as well, but I won't say that you or your opinions are stupid.


I would not make that a blanket rule. Some people's opinions  arestupid.
 
2013-02-09 10:38:11 PM

Farking Canuck: Popular Opinion: Farking Canuck: Popular Opinion: i kind of regret that, but my reference was directed at what i consider the militant atheist types (ie worshipers of the FSM)

Nobody worships the FSM. It is a parody. So who exactly were you targeting??

i'm not sure that it is possible to explain my reference if you don't get it already.
again (ime) those that "worship" the flying spaghetti monster means those that demean any and all facets of religion, and believe that anyone that believes is god, or goes to church must be some sort of retard.
in retrospect, since most politicians claim to go to church, this might not be far off base.

You are taking the arguments that people make on Fark and painting people with them. It isn't fair.

1) I am vary anti-religion myself as I feel it preys on the vulnerable and it pushes cave-man morals on to modern society. I will argue this on Fark with religious people who will defend the actions of the child raping catholic church or orthodox jews spitting on a women because she dared to take pictures on the sabbath.

2) Neither side of the argument necessarily does this in their day to day life. Members of my family are religious and I do not feel they are stupid.

3) Your assumptions are like assuming a boxer beats the snot out of everyone he meets because that's what he does in the ring. Fark is a sparring ring for topics like this ... if you don't want to go a few rounds don't get in the ring.


1) rule #1 (and really the only one you need): do unto others as you would have done unto you.
2) i think deep down you do, or you rationalize it by telling yourself they just do it out of habit or tradition, and not because they actually believe god took a rib from adam to make eve.
3) your assumptions of my assumptions are so far off, i don't even understand your interpretations of my assumptions.
 
2013-02-09 10:47:47 PM
OK, I'm a late arrival but I know all of the major arguments for the existence of A God.   none of them acctually point at there being a Christian God, nor do they preclude the existance of other equally powerful Gods.

The idea of God.   if you think about an all powerful infinite being that knows everything is everything etc.  you cannot imagine something greater and because you cannot imagine something that nothing can be greater than God it must be God.

the universe is finite and required a first cause, a cause prior to all other causes  (contradicts previous)

We have not yet found a society where the people did not understand the concept of Gods.  thus the Christian Gods must exist.

You cannot have a clock without a clock maker.    much the same as argument 2.

People have an emotional need for a God, thus there must be such a being.

Without a God, and the possiblility of horrific punishments people would just kill each other.

It is impossible to know everything or understand the concepts of everything thus the universe needs a dungeon master, God.

The Universe and Universal laws are to orderly and work so absolutly the same way that the only way this could happen is God.

you cannot prove a negative, thus God must exist.
 
2013-02-09 10:56:02 PM
Smgth:

I was going to be nice and give them the benefit of the doubt and just assume they lived in some Podunk town no atheist would be caught dead in. Because any atheist there would be killed.

Or maybe atheists don't need to make a big show of their charity because they believe it will get them into heaven?

/Is it ACTUALLY charity if you're doing it for a reward?
//As long as the poor get fed, I don't really care, I just find it interesting.


i suppose the motivation might be hard to grasp, especially since i already said i am not religious. i certainly don't think i am going to heaven and spend eternity in the blessed presence of some divine lord. (although that would be cool, lol)

i don't think everyone can necessarily get anything out of volunteering, in the same way that everyone is not capable of violence against an innocent victim.

if you genuinely find it interesting, you should give it a try. the reward will present itself to you.
 
2013-02-09 10:56:54 PM

madgordy: OK, I'm a late arrival but I know all of the major arguments for the existence of A God.   none of them acctually point at there being a Christian God, nor do they preclude the existance of other equally powerful Gods.

The idea of God.   if you think about an all powerful infinite being that knows everything is everything etc.  you cannot imagine something greater and because you cannot imagine something that nothing can be greater than God it must be God.

the universe is finite and required a first cause, a cause prior to all other causes  (contradicts previous)

We have not yet found a society where the people did not understand the concept of Gods.  thus the Christian Gods must exist.

You cannot have a clock without a clock maker.    much the same as argument 2.

People have an emotional need for a God, thus there must be such a being.

Without a God, and the possiblility of horrific punishments people would just kill each other.

It is impossible to know everything or understand the concepts of everything thus the universe needs a dungeon master, God.

The Universe and Universal laws are to orderly and work so absolutly the same way that the only way this could happen is God.

you cannot prove a negative, thus God must exist.


Lovely. But not sure what it brings to the thread...
 
2013-02-09 11:06:20 PM

Popular Opinion: Smgth:

I was going to be nice and give them the benefit of the doubt and just assume they lived in some Podunk town no atheist would be caught dead in. Because any atheist there would be killed.

Or maybe atheists don't need to make a big show of their charity because they believe it will get them into heaven?

/Is it ACTUALLY charity if you're doing it for a reward?
//As long as the poor get fed, I don't really care, I just find it interesting.

i suppose the motivation might be hard to grasp, especially since i already said i am not religious. i certainly don't think i am going to heaven and spend eternity in the blessed presence of some divine lord. (although that would be cool, lol)

i don't think everyone can necessarily get anything out of volunteering, in the same way that everyone is not capable of violence against an innocent victim.

if you genuinely find it interesting, you should give it a try. the reward will present itself to you.


No, I meant I found the 'charity of religionists doing charity solely in order to secure a place in heaven' paradox interesting. As an intellectual problem. I understand why people give to charity. It's the right thing to do. But people shouldn't be in it to get something out of it. I mean if it makes you feel good, so much the better. But enlightened self interest states what's good for others is good for you. Plus, as a society, those with more SHOULD help with those with less.

/I felt really good when I helped repaint that battered woman's shelter, or did all those canned food drives, but I didn't do it to get into heaven or because I thought it would make me feel better about myself, but because they needed help and I was able at the time.
//And I only mention it here to make my point that I believe in charity, not because I feel I deserve a pat on the back or to brag.
 
2013-02-09 11:20:25 PM

Smgth: Popular Opinion: Smgth:

I was going to be nice and give them the benefit of the doubt and just assume they lived in some Podunk town no atheist would be caught dead in. Because any atheist there would be killed.

Or maybe atheists don't need to make a big show of their charity because they believe it will get them into heaven?

/Is it ACTUALLY charity if you're doing it for a reward?
//As long as the poor get fed, I don't really care, I just find it interesting.

i suppose the motivation might be hard to grasp, especially since i already said i am not religious. i certainly don't think i am going to heaven and spend eternity in the blessed presence of some divine lord. (although that would be cool, lol)

i don't think everyone can necessarily get anything out of volunteering, in the same way that everyone is not capable of violence against an innocent victim.

if you genuinely find it interesting, you should give it a try. the reward will present itself to you.

No, I meant I found the 'charity of religionists doing charity solely in order to secure a place in heaven' paradox interesting. As an intellectual problem. I understand why people give to charity. It's the right thing to do. But people shouldn't be in it to get something out of it. I mean if it makes you feel good, so much the better. But enlightened self interest states what's good for others is good for you. Plus, as a society, those with more SHOULD help with those with less.

/I felt really good when I helped repaint that battered woman's shelter, or did all those canned food drives, but I didn't do it to get into heaven or because I thought it would make me feel better about myself, but because they needed help and I was able at the time.
//And I only mention it here to make my point that I believe in charity, not because I feel I deserve a pat on the back or to brag.


i never claimed to be some altruistic saint, and therefore feel no shame from mentioning that i donate *.*
the point in fact is that i do get something out of it, and that's probably the only reason i do it.
i've had people serving community service assigned to help me, and some come back afterwards and do it because they felt good doing it.
 
2013-02-09 11:27:39 PM
 
2013-02-09 11:33:32 PM

Popular Opinion: Smgth: Popular Opinion: Smgth:

I was going to be nice and give them the benefit of the doubt and just assume they lived in some Podunk town no atheist would be caught dead in. Because any atheist there would be killed.

Or maybe atheists don't need to make a big show of their charity because they believe it will get them into heaven?

/Is it ACTUALLY charity if you're doing it for a reward?
//As long as the poor get fed, I don't really care, I just find it interesting.

i suppose the motivation might be hard to grasp, especially since i already said i am not religious. i certainly don't think i am going to heaven and spend eternity in the blessed presence of some divine lord. (although that would be cool, lol)

i don't think everyone can necessarily get anything out of volunteering, in the same way that everyone is not capable of violence against an innocent victim.

if you genuinely find it interesting, you should give it a try. the reward will present itself to you.

No, I meant I found the 'charity of religionists doing charity solely in order to secure a place in heaven' paradox interesting. As an intellectual problem. I understand why people give to charity. It's the right thing to do. But people shouldn't be in it to get something out of it. I mean if it makes you feel good, so much the better. But enlightened self interest states what's good for others is good for you. Plus, as a society, those with more SHOULD help with those with less.

/I felt really good when I helped repaint that battered woman's shelter, or did all those canned food drives, but I didn't do it to get into heaven or because I thought it would make me feel better about myself, but because they needed help and I was able at the time.
//And I only mention it here to make my point that I believe in charity, not because I feel I deserve a pat on the back or to brag.

i never claimed to be some altruistic saint, and therefore feel no shame from mentioning that i donate *.*
the point in fact is that i do get something out of it, and that's probably the only reason i do it.
i've had people serving community service assigned to help me, and some come back afterwards and do it because they felt good doing it.


There's nothing wrong with doing something good because it makes you feel good. There's no shame in mentioning it. I did.

MY point was merely that doing good because you think it will afford you a special place in heaven, under the cloak of piety, is disingenuous.

Frankly my view is as long as charity gets done, I don't care the circumstances. I don't care why people do it, I don't care if they brag about it, I don't care if they think it will get them special favors.
 
2013-02-09 11:41:18 PM
Smgth:
There's nothing wrong with doing something good because it makes you feel good. There's no shame in mentioning it. I did.
MY point was merely that doing good because you think it will afford you a special place in heaven, under the cloak of piety, is disingenuous.
Frankly my view is as long as charity gets done, I don't care the circumstances. I don't care why people do it, I don't care if they brag about it, I don't care if they think it will get them special favors.


and that comes full circle back to my point.
i don't see that many non faith-based groups.
even secular groups, like high school clubs, tend to have volunteers that are religious, so saying they are not also motivated by some church teaching would not be true.
i went to both parochial school and public school, and we never did things for the homeless or poor in public school (except private clubs).
 
2013-02-09 11:45:32 PM

Dead for Tax Reasons: it seems like he just went there to point and laugh at how wrong the people there were, not to actually think or see the other side.


You're right! How dare he?! I could never see an atheist doing such a thing.
 
2013-02-09 11:50:40 PM

Popular Opinion: Smgth:
There's nothing wrong with doing something good because it makes you feel good. There's no shame in mentioning it. I did.
MY point was merely that doing good because you think it will afford you a special place in heaven, under the cloak of piety, is disingenuous.
Frankly my view is as long as charity gets done, I don't care the circumstances. I don't care why people do it, I don't care if they brag about it, I don't care if they think it will get them special favors.

and that comes full circle back to my point.
i don't see that many non faith-based groups.
even secular groups, like high school clubs, tend to have volunteers that are religious, so saying they are not also motivated by some church teaching would not be true.
i went to both parochial school and public school, and we never did things for the homeless or poor in public school (except private clubs).


I'm sorry, I just can't parse any of that in any way that makes sense to me.

I thought your original point was that atheists don't do charity?

I didn't do charity in school either, but I don't see what that had to do with anything.

I think I've lost the thread of this conversation entirely.
 
2013-02-09 11:50:51 PM

Smgth: Much in the way that A-theism, still has theism in it. Just have to take the good with the bad. And as my friend was wont to say, the bad with the scotch.


So does A-Team, and I pity the fool.
 
2013-02-09 11:58:06 PM

clowncar on fire: The bible was never intended as science but rather, a collection parables attempting to introduce law to a lawless society and answers to a society troubled with unanserable questions.


Lewis Black has an explanation not too different from yours.
 
2013-02-10 12:02:33 AM

Smgth: Popular Opinion: Smgth:
There's nothing wrong with doing something good because it makes you feel good. There's no shame in mentioning it. I did.
MY point was merely that doing good because you think it will afford you a special place in heaven, under the cloak of piety, is disingenuous.
Frankly my view is as long as charity gets done, I don't care the circumstances. I don't care why people do it, I don't care if they brag about it, I don't care if they think it will get them special favors.

and that comes full circle back to my point.
i don't see that many non faith-based groups.
even secular groups, like high school clubs, tend to have volunteers that are religious, so saying they are not also motivated by some church teaching would not be true.
i went to both parochial school and public school, and we never did things for the homeless or poor in public school (except private clubs).

I'm sorry, I just can't parse any of that in any way that makes sense to me.

I thought your original point was that atheists don't do charity?

I didn't do charity in school either, but I don't see what that had to do with anything.

I think I've lost the thread of this conversation entirely.


"militant atheists (in my experience) claim that religion serves no purpose,
i would argue that it does, since (again, ime) the overwhelming majority of private groups, functions, facilities and such tend to be faith based.
 
2013-02-10 12:05:47 AM

BumpInTheNight: Militant atheists are just as bad as militant fundamentalists, they're just bad in different ways.


Ob:
imgs.xkcd.com
 
2013-02-10 12:12:18 AM
FloydA: How do you think I should respond to him?

Assume that he reacted as defensively/rudely as he did because he felt as if you had attacked and insulted his deeply-held beliefs.  Ignore the sentences before and after the meat of  Somacandra's argument and focus on that meat ("People of varying religious commitments have made (and continue to make) remarkable contributions to science, medicine, engineering,  economics and many forms of related knowledge")

If that had been all that Somacandra had said, then how would you have responded to that?
 
2013-02-10 12:12:34 AM

Popular Opinion: 3) your assumptions of my assumptions are so far off, i don't even understand your interpretations of my assumptions


You are not even arguing my point. You referred to "FSM worshippers" ... I explained that this is a parody ... you clarified that you were referring to people "who demean all facets of religion" ... I explained that arguments made on Fark cannot be considered sufficient to decide what a person is like due to it being one limited aspect of the person (like a boxer when they are in the ring tells you nothing about them except how they box).

And now you put out this gem ...

Popular Opinion: militant atheists (in my experience) claim that religion serves no purpose,


Please explain how having an opinion, based on a lot of reasonable evidence, makes one 'militant'? Is it because you don't agree with the opinion? Do the words hurt you??

Islamic extremists are militant ... they blow people up. Christian abortion doctor murderers are militant as they use weapons to kill people they disagree with. How is someone who does not like a snake-oil industry militant???
 
2013-02-10 12:16:02 AM
Small group of atheists troll the christians... and they get taken seriously. Now, the rest of us will never hear the end of it.
 
2013-02-10 12:18:36 AM

Popular Opinion: militant atheists (in my experience) claim that religion serves no purpose,


There is a service inherent in most religions(people socializing), but that service is not exclusive to religions.

Ergo, religion is not required.  It serves no purpose that cannot be achieved via normal human drives and needs or other societal structures.

Law, "right" and "wrong", even socializing, etc, none of these things are exclusive to religions, indeed, many non-religious people practice such things all of the time.

Just because religion has popularized something like "thou shalt not murder", does not mean that it is right only because of religion, or was even invented by religion(as in we owe religion the credit).  In humans, even present in some animals, is a hashing out of things that can cause danger to one's self and making them not so much condoned.  Primates often shun members that "break the rules" in some circumstances, for example.  Completely and utterly without religion.
 
2013-02-10 12:22:47 AM

Smgth: Popular Opinion: Smgth: Popular Opinion: while i am not religious, i have a growing dislike for the anti-religious.
i am battered daily by protestations from the FSM worshippers proclaiming the absolute disconnection between church and charity, and yet for 17 years now, I have yet to meet an atheist group at the local community center feeding the poor.
i could understand if i only worked at a few, or only at faith based centers...

atheist is another word for selfish and don't give a f*ck about anyone else. jmo.

and i don't even believe in "god".

You're certainly welcome to view the world as if your experiences are the only way the world functions. But just because you haven't seen at your community center doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_secularist_organizations

But please, continue to paint all atheists with the same brush.

i should have added some disclaimer, to be sure. sorry.
i am not saying that all atheists are not charitable, although perhaps the inference is present when the logic isn't..
there are secular groups for sure. high school groups...but nothing specifically atheist.

am i purposely being provocative (i suppose that is trolling)?
i don't think any provocation to help people less fortunate that yourself is a bad thing.

Trolling or not you said Athiest meant selfish. Which is an unsupportable statement.

And as has been said repeatedly in this thread, there's no REAL need for atheist organizations. Any more then we need an anti-Easter bunny coalition. Atheists give to charity through secular organizations because their lack of belief doesn't define them.



Since we're at the point where we're repeating things, allow me to repeat something I already said in this thread earlier: Why is it about NEED?  What if some atheists just WANT to get together and have an atheist club?  Why is it a problem?  Those atheists who WANT to go can, and those atheists who aren't interested can stay home and sleep in.

I honestly am having difficulty understanding why so many people seem to have a problem with this.
 
2013-02-10 12:26:55 AM

amquelbettamin: Farking Canuck: amquelbettamin: I didn't mean in terms of energy, but in terms of morality. We should all be tending toward more disorder and chaos with increasing populations, not more order and peace.

Again ... speculation without support. Walk in the wrong parts of any big city and you will see disorder and chaos. Go to war-torn Africa or the middle east and you will see chaos and disorder.

You look at the world through your god colored glasses and see what you want to see. Denying reality ... as I mentioned above.

Pinker: The surprising decline in violence


Pinker's ideas are interesting, but his work is a bit flawed.

For what it's worth, I've read and enjoyed several of Pinker's books.  But he has his limitations.
 
2013-02-10 12:29:14 AM

Farking Canuck: Popular Opinion: i kind of regret that, but my reference was directed at what i consider the militant atheist types (ie worshipers of the FSM)

Nobody worships the FSM. It is a parody. So who exactly were you targeting??


I'm Christian, but I pretend to worship FSM sometimes because I find in amusing.  I've never worried that anyone was going to mistake my little joke as ACTUAL belief in Pastafarianism.
 
2013-02-10 12:35:31 AM

ciberido: What if some atheists just WANT to get together and have an atheist club?  Why is it a problem?


It's not.  People like to make it look like they're trolling, however.  See below:

Suroool: Small group of atheists troll the christians... and they get taken seriously. Now, the rest of us will never hear the end of it.


It's difficult to understand because it's an irrational concept to begin with, that people are "trolls" for simply organizing a social function.

Some people, even those not particularly religious, are so trained that even admitting atheism is now some huge attack upon the religious, some social faux paus(that's not in spell check and I'm too lazy to deal with it as i'm about to go to bed) that is not to be tolerated.  It's but one example of how liberal people can be, and are really, just as bad as conservatives at times.  Tolerate everyone, except those people I don't like...
 
2013-02-10 12:38:16 AM

ciberido: I've never worried that anyone was going to mistake my little joke as ACTUAL belief in Pastafarianism.


Most don't have that worry, until some-one comes along, as above, who flat out calls it worship, as if we know exactly what he means despite the words he uses..
 
2013-02-10 12:39:30 AM

Farking Canuck: Popular Opinion: 3) your assumptions of my assumptions are so far off, i don't even understand your interpretations of my assumptions

You are not even arguing my point. You referred to "FSM worshippers" ... I explained that this is a parody ... you clarified that you were referring to people "who demean all facets of religion" ... I explained that arguments made on Fark cannot be considered sufficient to decide what a person is like due to it being one limited aspect of the person (like a boxer when they are in the ring tells you nothing about them except how they box).

And now you put out this gem ...

Popular Opinion: militant atheists (in my experience) claim that religion serves no purpose,
o.
Please explain how having an opinion, based on a lot of reasonable evidence, makes one 'militant'? Is it because you don't agree with the opinion? Do the words hurt you??

Islamic extremists are militant ... they blow people up. Christian abortion doctor murderers are militant as they use weapons to kill people they disagree with. How is someone who does not like a snake-oil industry militant???


let me clarify again...<sigh>
when i say militant, i mean those that denigrate all religion and seek to banish it, but in my opinion, are not prepared or willing to replace the actual good things some of them do. all talk.
the negativity is not only not helpful, it is possibly harmful to the efforts of many good people just wanting to help (for whatever reason).
it is one thing to not buy into the bullshiat, but another thing altogether to bash others that have some "faith" or beliefs that you might find laughable. the red cross, while not a faith based organization, was founded by people that thought it was their religious duty to help others.
 
2013-02-10 12:43:25 AM

omeganuepsilon: ciberido: I've never worried that anyone was going to mistake my little joke as ACTUAL belief in Pastafarianism.

Most don't have that worry, until some-one comes along, as above, who flat out calls it worship, as if we know exactly what he means despite the words he uses..


worship/invocation fsm = making fun of anyone with religious beliefs.
it is obviously used only mockingly.
 
2013-02-10 12:44:43 AM

ciberido: Smgth: Popular Opinion: Smgth: Popular Opinion: while i am not religious, i have a growing dislike for the anti-religious.
i am battered daily by protestations from the FSM worshippers proclaiming the absolute disconnection between church and charity, and yet for 17 years now, I have yet to meet an atheist group at the local community center feeding the poor.
i could understand if i only worked at a few, or only at faith based centers...

atheist is another word for selfish and don't give a f*ck about anyone else. jmo.

and i don't even believe in "god".

You're certainly welcome to view the world as if your experiences are the only way the world functions. But just because you haven't seen at your community center doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_secularist_organizations

But please, continue to paint all atheists with the same brush.

i should have added some disclaimer, to be sure. sorry.
i am not saying that all atheists are not charitable, although perhaps the inference is present when the logic isn't..
there are secular groups for sure. high school groups...but nothing specifically atheist.

am i purposely being provocative (i suppose that is trolling)?
i don't think any provocation to help people less fortunate that yourself is a bad thing.

Trolling or not you said Athiest meant selfish. Which is an unsupportable statement.

And as has been said repeatedly in this thread, there's no REAL need for atheist organizations. Any more then we need an anti-Easter bunny coalition. Atheists give to charity through secular organizations because their lack of belief doesn't define them.


Since we're at the point where we're repeating things, allow me to repeat something I already said in this thread earlier: Why is it about NEED?  What if some atheists just WANT to get together and have an atheist club?  Why is it a problem?  Those atheists who WANT to go can, and those atheists who aren't interested can stay home and sleep in.

I honestly am having difficulty understanding why so many people seem to have a problem with this.


I'm with you. I just meant that organized religion, by its nature, must be an organization, whereas atheists don't NEED to get together. But they want to. As most people do. As we are communal animals. People naturally gravitate towards each other, and, naturally, gravitate towards those who share beliefs (or lack thereof).

I THINK people are mostly up in arms because of the co-opting of the term 'church', muddying the waters betwixt religionists and atheists. Which some atheists deem a retreat towards religion and some religionists see an imposition on their territory, where it need not be either.

These people just want a community of like minded individuals so they can hang out with people like themselves, and get that same community feeling people get when they go to a church or temple or whatever.

/I'm ok with this.
 
2013-02-10 12:48:36 AM

Popular Opinion: when i say militant, i mean those that denigrate all religion and seek to banish it, but in my opinion assumption, are not prepared or willing to replace the actual good things some of them do. all talk.


FTFY

You seem to assume an awful lot about how people deal in society based on very limited experience of them.  Not to mention the repeated misuse of "militant".

We don't all need the social structure created by religion.
We can't all volunteer.  Many have not the time nor the energy.

You seem to genuinely think people who do not do these things are "bad" people for some reason or another which is why we're having problems understanding you, either that or your skill with the written word is lacking. (which would be evidenced by your constant need to clarify, but held in contrast with your insistence with using words like "militant" and some unexplainable view of how people "should" volunteer or whatever).

In short, you're sending mixed signals.
 
2013-02-10 12:51:11 AM

madgordy: OK, I'm a late arrival but I know all of the major arguments for the existence of A God.   none of them acctually point at there being a Christian God, nor do they preclude the existance of other equally powerful Gods.


Strictly speaking, nothing in the Christian Bible precludes the existence of other gods.  The modern interpretation of Christianity is that no other gods ever existed, but the Bible itself never makes that claim.  It doesn't even say you can't worship them.  It merely says that Jehovah must come first.
 
2013-02-10 12:53:35 AM

omeganuepsilon: Popular Opinion: when i say militant, i mean those that denigrate all religion and seek to banish it, but in my opinion assumption, are not prepared or willing to replace the actual good things some of them do. all talk.

FTFY

You seem to assume an awful lot about how people deal in society based on very limited experience of them.  Not to mention the repeated misuse of "militant".

We don't all need the social structure created by religion.
We can't all volunteer.  Many have not the time nor the energy.

You seem to genuinely think people who do not do these things are "bad" people for some reason or another which is why we're having problems understanding you, either that or your skill with the written word is lacking. (which would be evidenced by your constant need to clarify, but held in contrast with your insistence with using words like "militant" and some unexplainable view of how people "should" volunteer or whatever).

In short, you're sending mixed signals.


i can only comment on what i see, and excuse me if i transfer and apply those experiences to generate an overall opinion for how things are, and then express that opinion.

isn't that the point of this forum.
 
2013-02-10 12:58:14 AM

Farking Canuck: Islamic extremists are militant ... they blow people up. Christian abortion doctor murderers are militant as they use weapons to kill people they disagree with. How is someone who does not like a snake-oil industry militant???


The atheistic equivalent would be someone who bulldozes churches, burns religious books, and makes worship a crime, because he doesn't want anyone to follow any religion.  Someone who did such things would be a militant atheist.  Using force (whether it be guns or imprisonment) to prevent someone from following their religious beliefs would be militant.
 
2013-02-10 12:58:41 AM
God makes a male and female of everything EXCEPT humans, then wonders why the man is so lonely.
God puts the one thing he doesn't want touched right smack in the middle of the garden with two people who have no idea why it would be bad to touch it.
God is all-seeing and all-knowing, yet he fails to notice the snake/Lucifer screwing things up.
God's response to said screw-up is to curse all of creation forever to punish all of the descendants of one species of animal forever.
God later gets so emo over a few thousand humans not kowtowing to him that he decides to destroy all of creation right then and there, and he would have if not for one person saying "Hey, God, it's cool, I still like you".
God then purposefully harden's Pharaoh's heart several times so that he could be justified with unleashing worse and worse plagues upon Egypt, instead of simply letting Pharaoh release the Israelites  like he demanded.
God then slaughters half of the Israelites he just had freed because they kneeled to a gold cow.
God later makes a bet with Lucifer and utterly farks up Job's life to make a point both of them knew about anyway.
God then demands an old man sacrifice his only son to him to prove his loyalty (aka for shiats and giggles, since he should already know that Abraham was loyal to him), then says "Psyche! Just fooling ya, you value me over everything else".
God then completely massacres two cities over hospitality issues, and spares one guy and (most) of his family despite the guy practically tossing his daughters to the crowd in exchange for leaving the angels alone, then turns his wife into salt for looking back at the carnage.
God later sends two bears to slaughter a bunch of children because they called an old guy "Baldy".
etc, etc etc.

And Christians wonder why not everyone is willing to throw everything away to kowtow to God (and yes, throwing everything away is part of going to heaven, Jesus said that you must abandon your friends and family and home and ownings in order to follow him and be saved).
 
2013-02-10 12:59:04 AM

ciberido: madgordy: OK, I'm a late arrival but I know all of the major arguments for the existence of A God.   none of them acctually point at there being a Christian God, nor do they preclude the existance of other equally powerful Gods.

Strictly speaking, nothing in the Christian Bible precludes the existence of other gods.  The modern interpretation of Christianity is that no other gods ever existed, but the Bible itself never makes that claim.  It doesn't even say you can't worship them.  It merely says that Jehovah must come first.


Well, not to be an apologist, but the 'Christian bible' wasn't really meant to replace, in it's entirety, the Torah. And THAT states no worshiping of false idols (meaning no worshipping other gods) and says that shalt have no other gods before me. Which implies there ARE other gods. And it says that other cultures have gods, such as Baal, which are false gods, and says no worshipping those guys either.

So I don't see why the Christian bible would go out of its way to reassert any of these when it was all covered in 'the old testament', an essential part of the canon.
 
2013-02-10 01:29:01 AM

leonel: They sing Queen songs at atheist churches? Damn, I wanna go now!

COOL!!   Fat botomed girls....anyone?
 
2013-02-10 01:35:26 AM

FloydA: thamike: Atheist Church?  What, like Brazzers?

[i105.photobucket.com image 500x375]
What an atheist church might look like.

Yeah, and Catholic . And Episcopalian , one-day-a-week Baptist, etc.
 
2013-02-10 01:46:05 AM

phrawgh: Marcintosh: phrawgh: [www.deeptruths.com image 420x300]
[1.bp.blogspot.com image 500x298]

Better yet WHY would your Jesus return?
Given your society's / sect's previous attitude *sheesh*

I'm not Jewish.

You know, I wasn't going there.  Just so you know.  I'm igerrant, not unkind.
 
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