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(AZ Family)   Even though the poor plants stand there silently with their arms up, people still go out into the Arizona desert and use saguaro cacti for target practice   (azfamily.com) divider line 120
    More: Sad, Tonto National Forest, United States National Forest, tonto, Fish Department, Arizona, shooter game, target practice, injury  
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4414 clicks; posted to Main » on 08 Feb 2013 at 8:49 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-02-08 12:26:52 PM

violentsalvation: I think the reason you don't see bullet-riddled appliances in the midwest is they rust away, blend in and get covered in vegetation. Or they just end up under water. In Arizona they just sit out in the middle of open nothingness forever, sunbaked brilliant white.


Well, you need them out there as shelter in case of unexpected nuclear tests.
 
2013-02-08 12:33:51 PM

dittybopper: When you start talking about taking guns away, though, you need a pretty damned good reason for it, backed up with evidence and due process for the accused. It's an enumerated constitutional right.


I'd say using them in the commission of a crime (shooting the cacti is illegal) and firing them in close enough proximity to someones home to the point it's causing them concern is a good enough reason to deem these people too irresponsible to own deadly weapons. No where in the constitution does it say you can act like an asshole with your firearms. Being an asshole is not a right. Don't want to lose your gun... don't be an asshole with it. If someone started shooting up trees in your neighborhood would you be all hunky dory with that?

Seriously, gun folks. If you ALL exhibited some common sense then this discussion wouldn't even be happening. For those of you that are indeed responsible and respectful you should be screaming the loudest at the idiots. They are your biggest enemy in this fight. Not the evil "libruls". Most gun control advocates don't want a full ban. They want to make sure that YOU the REAL responsible gun owners are the ones who have the weapons. And even the sh*tcocks can have weapons too... just as long as they learn not be sh*tcocks with them.

Now I'm sure that I'll get a reasonable response that totally doesn't ignore everything I said and not blame me for being a gunny gun grabby mcgrabber homosex 0bamassiah felching socialist Nazi hippie thug with poop in my pants.
 
2013-02-08 12:42:34 PM
Oh and for a "right" that has supposedly been handed down by God himself and is expected to be taken with the utmost seriousness a lot of gun owners sure seem to crap all over that notion the second the conversation about regulation ends.

Gun dudes: "Me and my rights should be taken seriously dammit!! I am a serious person who takes the responsibility of gun ownership SERIOUSLY!!"

Libturds: "Well... alright. We'll trust you on that."

Gun dudes: "YEE HAW!!!" *reckless senseless mayhem*

Libturds: *eye roll* "Hand 'em over, Tex."

Gun dudes "RESPONSIBLE, GOD, MURRICA, FLAGS, CRYING EAGLES!!!"
 
2013-02-08 01:10:10 PM
I did a little sleuthing on the Intarwebs.

George and Lynn Martin operate JF Ranch, and guess what?   They didn't complain when the local Rod and Gun club came by and repaired a couple miles of their fence.  It's an effort the local gun club calls "Adopt A Ranch".

Kind of a nice counterbalance to the image of shooters as just assholes who only destroy stuff.
 
2013-02-08 01:27:04 PM
I hate people.
 
2013-02-08 01:36:38 PM

dittybopper: Kind of a nice counterbalance to the image of shooters as just assholes who only destroy stuff.


I'm sure they are fine with the gun club and for the most part so am I. This isn't about gun owners in general. It's about assholes that own guns. Why do you want to defend assholes who undermine your own agenda and beliefs? Seems counterproductive.
 
2013-02-08 01:39:44 PM

here to help: I'd say using them in the commission of a crime (shooting the cacti is illegal)


It's only a misdemeanor.  In fact, even the third offense is still only a misdemeanor.  Doesn't rise to the level where you get your rights taken away (felony level).

and firing them in close enough proximity to someones home to the point it's causing them concern is a good enough reason to deem these people too irresponsible to own deadly weapons.

Actually, the main complaint in the article isn't safety, it's people shooting protected cacti, and littering.   Look at the pictures I posted, which came from the article:  Nice safe backstops in the form of huge hills.  This isn't a flat desert area.  The people are complaining about the trash:

 Their property borders the Tonto National Forest where target shooters are causing damage to plants and leaving huge amounts of trash behind.
...


Shooters bring out all types of junk, from refrigerators to washing machines, to use as targets and the ground is littered with spent shells.

"The place has gone to hell," said George Martin. "And it's just getting worse everyday."

While they applaud the efforts of the Pinal County Sheriff's Department, they said the Tonto National Forest and the Arizona Game and Fish Department are doing little to control illegal shooting and the trashing of the area.

 ...
The Martins want Shoemaker and other shooters to remember the area along the Tonto is their neighborhood and they'd like them to treat it with respect.


It's not a safety issue, it's a littering/damage to natural resources issue.

 No where in the constitution does it say you can act like an asshole with your firearms.

Actually, yes it does, in the same place it says you can act like an asshole online, the Bill of Rights.  Now, if you do something that is actionable, like littering or damaging something, you have to face the consequences of that.  But generally we don't take things away from assholes.

Being an asshole is not a right.

Sure it is, you douchebag.  Your mother really knows how to gobble the knob, you know?  If it weren't for the fact that penicillin shots are so expensive, I'd visit her more often.   See, you do have the right to be an asshole.  If you cause some actual damage, you're liable for that, of course, but generally being an asshole is one of those cherished American rights.

Don't want to lose your gun... don't be an asshole with it.

Don't want to lose your computer?  Don't be an asshole with it.

Don't want to lose your right to remain silent?  Don't be an asshole to cops.

Don't want to lose your right to just compensation for property seized?  Don't be an asshole.

Don't want to lose your right against unreasonable search and seizure?  Don't be an asshole.

Don't want to lose your right to worship (or not) as you please?  Don't be an asshole.

Don't want to lose your right to vote?  Don't be an asshole.

See, where I come from, even assholes have rights.

 If someone started shooting up trees in your neighborhood would you be all hunky dory with that?

Actually, yes, if there were huge backstops like that in my neighborhood.

In fact, I'm from a rural part of New York State.  Gunfire isn't an unknown sound where I grew up.  In fact, it was quite common.  Hell, I still go over to my father's house to shoot, and while it's not quite safe enough for regular shooting of actual firearms in my immediate neighborhood, I do shoot my air rifle and my bow in the backyard, and no one thinks twice about it.  I have shot a coyote on my property, but I was very careful about it*, and I had no problems, but that's the exception.


*There is a very narrow area where I can shoot a firearm safely, and I had to wait until the 'yote entered that zone.  Out of deference to my neighbors I used subsonic ammo.  This was back when we had a problem with the local coyotes being too bold in an area with almost a dozen kids under 10 years old. I had a hunting license, they were in season, and my neighbors were OK with it.
 
2013-02-08 01:41:58 PM

here to help: dittybopper: Kind of a nice counterbalance to the image of shooters as just assholes who only destroy stuff.

I'm sure they are fine with the gun club and for the most part so am I. This isn't about gun owners in general. It's about assholes that own guns. Why do you want to defend assholes who undermine your own agenda and beliefs? Seems counterproductive.


As I pointed out above, assholes have rights, even assholes like you (and me, for that matter).

Maybe I'm just a bit old fashioned, but losing an enumerated right for a littering charge seems a little excessive to me, Officer Obie.
 
2013-02-08 02:02:54 PM
Welp... then I have no sympathy for you. All people want is a little more accountability and responsibility from the "responsible" gun owners. If you just want to pull the firearms equivalent of farting in everyone's face then don't expect any respect from the rest of society who are desperately trying to figure out some fair and decent solutions to this very important problem.

*fart*
 
2013-02-08 02:07:11 PM
And really I don't have a puppy in this fight but it does bother me to see people getting hurt and a country ripping itself apart when a little bit of thought and co-operation from BOTH sides could easily garner some positive and reasonable solutions. Life could be better. Society could be better. Why not make it better?
 
2013-02-08 02:18:55 PM
Never Surrender
 
2013-02-08 02:19:39 PM

here to help: Welp... then I have no sympathy for you. All people want is a little more accountability and responsibility from the "responsible" gun owners. If you just want to pull the firearms equivalent of farting in everyone's face then don't expect any respect from the rest of society who are desperately trying to figure out some fair and decent solutions to this very important problem.

*fart*


I don't have a problem with the part that I bolded, and we in fact agree on that, except by putting scare quotes around the word responsible, you are tarring every gun owner.

That I can't accept.

Also, your idea about taking away the guns of people for littering seems excessive.
 
2013-02-08 02:23:21 PM

wambu: Never Surrender


Ah, yes, the motto of the Provisional NRA.
 
2013-02-08 02:55:54 PM

dittybopper: I don't have a problem with the part that I bolded, and we in fact agree on that, except by putting scare quotes around the word responsible, you are tarring every gun owner.

That I can't accept.

Also, your idea about taking away the guns of people for littering seems excessive.


The quotations were not in reference to the actual responsible gun owners which I know there are plenty of. I'll explain my motivation for that a bit further. There are a lot of folks who are very much IRRESPONSIBLE yet hide behind their self proclaimed "responsible" status. These are the people I deride. These are the people I think that need to be reigned in. Personally I'd rather see them learn to reflect the word properly through education as opposed to removing the weapons from them outright. However they don't want that. They don't feel they should be accountable for ANYTHING. Therein lies the issue and if they are unwilling to get their own behavior under control what other options are there than to FORCE them to be responsible? Guns are too dangerous in the wrong hands to just dismiss these folks.

As far as "littering" you know this isn't just throwing a candybar wrapper on the ground. This is dragging large objects into nature to get their rocks off then leaving a mess and yes, it can be quite unnerving to some. If I lived in an area where this type of thing was going on I'd be concerned for my safety and those around me as if those people have so little respect for nature and common decency how much respect are they going to to have towards the local population. Add to that they are destroying endangered wildlife and messing with the eco system... well it paints a picture of someone who doesn't seem to give a f*ck about much of anything. That is not the type of person I want to see having massive military grade fire power. It's just asking for trouble. At the very least downgrade them to only being able to own a six shooter and low capacity rifles for home defense and hunting.

With great power comes great responsibility. Guns = power. Guns + irresponsibility = the potential for abuse of power.

I'm not a fan of big gov and I can respect the need for the people to be able to keep that power in check... however I trust big gov to rule over me than the type of people who think the behavior described in the article is acceptable.

Knowaddimean? Just want to get the yahoos to be less yahooish more than anything.
 
2013-02-08 04:05:12 PM

Kit Fister: Or, you know, you can continue to be blinded by rage over something stupid and continue to be part of the problem.


I apologize for being an asshole.
 
2013-02-08 04:12:50 PM

here to help: Knowaddimean? Just want to get the yahoos to be less yahooish more than anything.


Might as well ask the googles to be less googlish.

On the serious note, though, it does pretty much boil down to littering.

It's unsightly and shouldn't be done.

I've actually gone shooting in wild areas, and I've always packed out what I packed in.  The one exception is the projectiles for my mortar:  They tend to bury themselves.  I recover the ones I can.

Now, the proper way to handle this is to go ahead and clean up an area, then watch it.  If someone messes it up, there are legal remedies for that.  You can charge them for littering, and if a few people have to pay some fines, it will get around that it's not a good idea to do it, and the incidents of it will drop.

As it is, it sounds like the regulations about littering and against shooting the saguaros aren't being enforced at all.  That's a recipe for disaster.  Imagine if, on the highway near your home, the speed limit was set at 65 MPH, but it was never, ever enforced.  What do you think would happen?  Most people would drive close enough to the limit, but you'd have some assholes who decide that because no one ever gets a ticket there, they can drive 125 MPH.

Thinking on it now, perhaps the article in question is more to embarrass the local law enforcement into action than anything else.
 
2013-02-08 04:49:36 PM

Kit Fister: Yes, really. Honestly. I'm sorry, but I don't see what the hell the problem is.


It's just that they're really slow-growing.  To somebody from elsewhere, they're the size of a tree that's a couple of years old.

At five years, a Saguaro is about the size of a jellybean.  At 10, it's a cocktail weiner.  At <i>forty years</i>, it will be about four feet tall, and if it does well for itself, it may have a single stubby branch by 75.  The stereotypical multi-armed ones you see in pictures are generally in the 150-year-old ballpark.
 
2013-02-08 05:17:28 PM
If only the trash left by illegal immigrants would bring forth such outrage.  No appliances, but lots of bottles, backpacks, clothes, poop and stuff.
 
2013-02-09 11:26:27 AM

SevenizGud: OMG, those poor cacti! This just pushes them that much closer to extinction. There are hardly any left.

[www.planetware.com image 500x334]


God, I HATE Republican "logic".  It is the logic of a child.

Liberals develop critical thinking skills.  If Repugs ever developed those skills we wouldn't be in the situation we are in.

Yes, they are endangered.  They are close together BECAUSE THEY DON'T HAVE LEGS!

If you put all the endangered tigers together, it would look like a lot too, you idiot.
 
2013-02-09 06:18:16 PM

dittybopper: That looks like an extremely safe place to shoot.

Cleaning up after yourself, and trying not to damage the cacti would be a good thing


In general, it is: I used to shoot there. Every time I went, I'd pack out about four or five big trash bags with spent brass, shotgun hulls, cardboard boxes, metal crap, trash, etc. -- that's about all that could fit in my trunk. Other stuff we'd bag up and leave in a convenient place for the next guy or the rangers to pack out if they had the room/time. (We'd leave a note attached saying that the bags were cases, hulls, trash, etc. and should be discarded appropriately but we didn't have enough room in our vehicles and would be obliged if others could take at least one with them.) If I went out with a friend with a pickup, we'd take out some of the bigger stuff like water heaters(!) that people would shoot and drop them off at a metal recycler.

People leaving trash, spent cases, etc. are douches who are irresponsible. One should always try to pack out more than one packs in and leave it in a better state than before.

People shooting cactus go beyond irresponsible and into the realm of douchebaggery. Fark them sideways.
 
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