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(The Weekly Standard)   New York's highest court says it's illegal for a court to order or a county to hand out the gun owners list to journalists. Gun owners privacy is protected by law. Let the lawsuits against Westchester begin   (weeklystandard.com) divider line 228
    More: Interesting, Westchester, Indiana, gun owners, New York City, NYT, lower courts, public access, appeals court, supreme courts  
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1239 clicks; posted to Politics » on 07 Feb 2013 at 8:18 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-02-07 01:07:48 AM  
Of course a "gun owners" list creates another list by default: An "unarmed people's" list. Very handy for some.
 
2013-02-07 01:35:24 AM  
Any kind of organized list of law abiding citizens made public without their express consent is kind of against the letter and spirit of American law.

Imagine if I compiled a list of all the single women in a county and made an interactive map of their houses. I'd be strung up as the devil incarnate by a lynch mob (metaphorically and/or literally) in hours, possibly minutes of the list going live.

Imagine if I compiled a list of all the people who owned nice sports cars and gave you an interactive map of their houses. I'd be sued out of existence.

Why would you think guns are somehow different?
 
2013-02-07 01:40:53 AM  

torch: Of course a "gun owners" list creates another list by default: An "unarmed people's" list. Very handy for some.


Yes, dozens of moustache-twirling villians are pouncing on that list.
 
2013-02-07 01:57:08 AM  
Good. People can't, won't, and should not be expected to carry their firearm(s) around everywhere they go, especially in NYC (unless, you know, that's what you anti-gun nuts want......didn't think so). Folks should be able to leave their firearms properly secured at home while they are at work or elsewhere without fear that some hack journalist will compile a treasure map for criminals that would break in and use the guns on the streets.

Sorry, we don't want you to advertise the whereabouts of our guns, so they can be stolen, so you can use our stolen guns and their criminal use in your anti-gun agenda. There are lives at stake.
 
2013-02-07 07:21:13 AM  
This is nice, I suppose, but I don't see why the government needs to have that list in the first place.

I could see if it was a list of people licensed to carry concealed, maybe, but it's not that, it's a list of people who merely possess a handgun (legally, at any rate).

There is a circuit split right now on whether a state has to allow some form of handgun carry.   I'm betting that when it goes to the Supreme Court, they will say essentially that one of the core purposes of the Second Amendment is  self-defense, and because it says "keep and bear", not just "keep", that the states must issue CCWs to those who pass some objective criteria.
 
2013-02-07 07:55:33 AM  

violentsalvation: your anti-gun agenda


And it's painfully obvious that the published list was nothing more than an attempt to "shame" gun owners in that county.
 
2013-02-07 08:04:46 AM  
The First Department is not NY's highest court.  It's an intermediate court.  Might want to change title if you get a chance.
 
2013-02-07 08:13:10 AM  
Weird, can someone parse the court speak?  I don't understand why they said it was illegal.  After all, handing out information doesn't actually violate the 2nd amendment.
 
2013-02-07 08:23:13 AM  

dittybopper: This is nice, I suppose, but I don't see why the government needs to have that list in the first place.

I could see if it was a list of people licensed to carry concealed, maybe, but it's not that, it's a list of people who merely possess a handgun (legally, at any rate).

There is a circuit split right now on whether a state has to allow some form of handgun carry.   I'm betting that when it goes to the Supreme Court, they will say essentially that one of the core purposes of the Second Amendment is  self-defense, and because it says "keep and bear", not just "keep", that the states must issue CCWs to those who pass some objective criteria.


You don't think that their should be a registry of firearm owners and what firearms they own to make them accountable for their guns?

And it is just wrong to allow that registry to be open for the public to see.
 
2013-02-07 08:25:15 AM  

dittybopper: This is nice, I suppose, but I don't see why the government needs to have that list in the first place.

I could see if it was a list of people licensed to carry concealed, maybe, but it's not that, it's a list of people who merely possess a handgun (legally, at any rate).

There is a circuit split right now on whether a state has to allow some form of handgun carry.   I'm betting that when it goes to the Supreme Court, they will say essentially that one of the core purposes of the Second Amendment is  self-defense, and because it says "keep and bear", not just "keep", that the states must issue CCWs to those who pass some objective criteria.


I don't understand why all cars have to be registered but guns absolutely cannot be registered.
 
2013-02-07 08:25:28 AM  

torch: Of course a "gun owners" list creates another list by default: An "unarmed people's" list. Very handy for some.


No it doesn't. Many guns are not required to be registered at all. Shotguns, for example.

What "law" prohibits publishing a list of registered gun owners' names in a newspaper?
 
2013-02-07 08:30:13 AM  

doglover: Any kind of organized list of law abiding citizens made public without their express consent is kind of against the letter and spirit of American law.

Imagine if I compiled a list of all the single women in a county and made an interactive map of their houses. I'd be strung up as the devil incarnate by a lynch mob (metaphorically and/or literally) in hours, possibly minutes of the list going live.

Imagine if I compiled a list of all the people who owned nice sports cars and gave you an interactive map of their houses. I'd be sued out of existence.

Why would you think guns are somehow different?


FAIL

All kinds of "lists" are already available to the public, such as property owners, registered voters and campaign contributors.

Further, if you give money to a charity or buy a magazine sunscription, that data is endlessly sold.

How do you think it is that you get so many unsolicited personalized pieces of junk mail?
 
2013-02-07 08:30:35 AM  
I understand they published a list/map of people with permits for concealed weapons.  Not quite the same thing.

csb
My cousin has a permit, which apparently came up when was pulled over for speeding, with the officer involved having his hand on his weapon when he came up to the vehicle she was driving.
She doesn't own, but she has the permit.
/csb
 
2013-02-07 08:30:43 AM  

dartben: dittybopper: This is nice, I suppose, but I don't see why the government needs to have that list in the first place.

I could see if it was a list of people licensed to carry concealed, maybe, but it's not that, it's a list of people who merely possess a handgun (legally, at any rate).

There is a circuit split right now on whether a state has to allow some form of handgun carry.   I'm betting that when it goes to the Supreme Court, they will say essentially that one of the core purposes of the Second Amendment is  self-defense, and because it says "keep and bear", not just "keep", that the states must issue CCWs to those who pass some objective criteria.

I don't understand why all cars have to be registered but guns absolutely cannot be registered.


What's use would registration of firearms be?
 
2013-02-07 08:31:57 AM  
So they're going to sue the newspaper over a judicial disagreement? Ok.
 
2013-02-07 08:32:07 AM  

doglover: Imagine if I compiled a list of all the people who owned nice sports cars and gave you an interactive map of their houses. I'd be sued out of existence.


Depends how you got that data.  If there were a Sunshine Law that required your DMV to release car registration information when requested properly, then you might be entitled to it.

The problem here is that the registration data isn't clearly inside or outside the NY Sunshine Law.  This judge took a stance, but it's quite plausible that other NY judges (at the trial or appellate level) will disagree quite strenuously.
 
2013-02-07 08:33:06 AM  
100 years of privacy erosion by the courts stopped by "gun owners list." fark this country.
 
2013-02-07 08:33:39 AM  

dittybopper: This is nice, I suppose, but I don't see why the government needs to have that list in the first place.


I think it's more problem that they, like a lot of states, made their sunshine/open records laws far to broad.  Not every piece of paper generated by the government should be made available to the public.  We had a story yesterday greenlit about an inmate wanting a list of all the licensed strippers in the state.

There's been past problems of people getting bank account routing numbers, bank account pin's, addresses of women's shelters, addresses of explosives storage, etc, all from public records requests.
 
2013-02-07 08:35:19 AM  

ongbok: You don't think that their should be a registry of firearm owners and what firearms they own to make them accountable for their guns?


I don't. There's a reasons that a national gun registry is illegal as per the Firearms Owners Protection act. It mostly has to do with the ATF being incompetent dicks who's prosecutions were unconstitutional 75% of the time. While I don't believe that a national registry will lead to a national confiscation (although there is precedence on a local level), I do believe that a registry will give the ATF free reign for undue prosecutions, scrutiny, and harassment of legal gun owners.

We something somewhat similar with the DEA harassing state-legal marijuana growing operations.
 
2013-02-07 08:36:36 AM  

dartben: I don't understand why all cars have to be registered but guns absolutely cannot be registered.


Because a mythical tyrannical government will march gun owners to the ovens using that list.

Though a facebook graph search for everyone that has " liked" certain groups will probably do just fine when the time comes.
 
2013-02-07 08:38:46 AM  

HotWingConspiracy: dartben: I don't understand why all cars have to be registered but guns absolutely cannot be registered.

Because a mythical tyrannical government will march gun owners to the ovens using that list.

Though a facebook graph search for everyone that has " liked" certain groups will probably do just fine when the time comes.


Naw, they'll just come take them away during some national emergency when law abiding gun owners need them most. There's some folks down in New Orleans who know how this feels.
 
2013-02-07 08:39:35 AM  

Cinaed: I understand they published a list/map of people with permits for concealed weapons.  Not quite the same thing.

csb
My cousin has a permit, which apparently came up when was pulled over for speeding, with the officer involved having his hand on his weapon when he came up to the vehicle she was driving.
She doesn't own, but she has the permit.
/csb


I don't like how cool story bro has become the preamble for the anecdote. IMO it should be a response phrase used to dismiss trolls.

Back on point: Here in Chicago, police commissioner Gary McCarthy has cryptically suggested that his officers should simply shoot concealed carry permits. But, in my own anecdote, I've found that cops here are sympathetic towards law abiding gun owners.

/csb
 
2013-02-07 08:42:07 AM  

dittybopper: I'm betting that when it goes to the Supreme Court, they will say essentially that one of the core purposes of the Second Amendment is self-defense...


You're correct, of course.  There's no doubt that a majority of the Supreme Court will do what they did in Heller to pull something out of their arse ignoring the clear language of the amendment by engaging in a Herculean effort in semantics and ignores the clear language of the actual text.  They're activist judges, after all.

...and because it says "keep and bear", not just "keep", that the states must issue CCWs to those who pass some objective criteria.

Judging by the number of CCWs issued- that objective criteria has sunk to the level of "does the requester steam a mirror when they put it under his nose?"  Way to many CCWs issued by states as it is,  If the reason debate has shown anything there are far too many unbalanced, tinfoil-hat types carrying around loaded guns in general society.
 
2013-02-07 08:42:24 AM  

joness0154: HotWingConspiracy: dartben: I don't understand why all cars have to be registered but guns absolutely cannot be registered.

Because a mythical tyrannical government will march gun owners to the ovens using that list.

Though a facebook graph search for everyone that has " liked" certain groups will probably do just fine when the time comes.

Naw, they'll just come take them away during some national emergency when law abiding gun owners need them most. There's some folks down in New Orleans who know how this feels.


My chief in the Coast Guard came across an instance where a guy was essentially holding his apartment building hostage. Having a gun that wasn't on the grid, he wasn't disarmed, allowing him to reign over his unarmed fellow tenants, taking there provisions and such.
 
2013-02-07 08:42:36 AM  
That's not New York's highest court.  Subby stole a green light by pretending this is more final than it is.  Bad Subby.
 
2013-02-07 08:43:36 AM  

Blathering Idjut: dittybopper: I'm betting that when it goes to the Supreme Court, they will say essentially that one of the core purposes of the Second Amendment is self-defense...

You're correct, of course.  There's no doubt that a majority of the Supreme Court will do what they did in Heller to pull something out of their arse ignoring the clear language of the amendment by engaging in a Herculean effort in semantics and ignores the clear language of the actual text.  They're activist judges, after all.

...and because it says "keep and bear", not just "keep", that the states must issue CCWs to those who pass some objective criteria.

Judging by the number of CCWs issued- that objective criteria has sunk to the level of "does the requester steam a mirror when they put it under his nose?"  Way to many CCWs issued by states as it is,  If the reason debate has shown anything there are far too many unbalanced, tinfoil-hat types carrying around loaded guns in general society.


You are correct, as is evident by the fact that concealed weapons permit holders commit crime at a rate greater than that of the general adult population, as you will certainly be able to demonstrate through reference to data.
 
2013-02-07 08:44:14 AM  

joness0154: Naw, they'll just come take them away during some national emergency when law abiding gun owners need them most. There's some folks down in New Orleans who know how this feels.


Yeah, and it's no surprise that happened under a LIBERAL president.
 
2013-02-07 08:44:17 AM  

doglover: Any kind of organized list of law abiding citizens made public without their express consent is kind of against the letter and spirit of American law.

Imagine if I compiled a list of all the single women in a county and made an interactive map of their houses. I'd be strung up as the devil incarnate by a lynch mob (metaphorically and/or literally) in hours, possibly minutes of the list going live.

Imagine if I compiled a list of all the people who owned nice sports cars and gave you an interactive map of their houses. I'd be sued out of existence.

Why would you think guns are somehow different?


But announce that you'd like to compile a list of people, their relationships, habits, likes, dislikes, spending, and other sundry details about them and we actively help out!
 
2013-02-07 08:45:06 AM  

Frank N Stein: joness0154: HotWingConspiracy: dartben: I don't understand why all cars have to be registered but guns absolutely cannot be registered.

Because a mythical tyrannical government will march gun owners to the ovens using that list.

Though a facebook graph search for everyone that has " liked" certain groups will probably do just fine when the time comes.

Naw, they'll just come take them away during some national emergency when law abiding gun owners need them most. There's some folks down in New Orleans who know how this feels.

My chief in the Coast Guard came across an instance where a guy was essentially holding his apartment building hostage. Having a gun that wasn't on the grid, he wasn't disarmed, allowing him to reign over his unarmed fellow tenants, taking there provisions and such.


Things That Never Happened for $1000, Alex.
 
2013-02-07 08:47:26 AM  

Satanic_Hamster: joness0154: Naw, they'll just come take them away during some national emergency when law abiding gun owners need them most. There's some folks down in New Orleans who know how this feels.

Yeah, and it's no surprise that happened under a LIBERAL president.


What does the President have to do with an order given by the mayor?
 
2013-02-07 08:47:29 AM  

HotWingConspiracy: Frank N Stein: joness0154: HotWingConspiracy: dartben: I don't understand why all cars have to be registered but guns absolutely cannot be registered.

Because a mythical tyrannical government will march gun owners to the ovens using that list.

Though a facebook graph search for everyone that has " liked" certain groups will probably do just fine when the time comes.

Naw, they'll just come take them away during some national emergency when law abiding gun owners need them most. There's some folks down in New Orleans who know how this feels.

My chief in the Coast Guard came across an instance where a guy was essentially holding his apartment building hostage. Having a gun that wasn't on the grid, he wasn't disarmed, allowing him to reign over his unarmed fellow tenants, taking there provisions and such.

Things That Never Happened for $1000, Alex.


2nd hand info, for sure. I don't blame you for questioning it. But I'm just going by what he told me.

/It's funny cause my first name actually is Alex
//Made me do a double take
///Published fark list somewhere?
 
2013-02-07 08:49:16 AM  

Frank N Stein: /It's funny cause my first name actually is Alex
//Made me do a double take
///Published fark list somewhere?


I maintain an extensive Fark database so I can always find people with booze.
 
2013-02-07 08:49:46 AM  
Weird, can someone parse the court speak?  I don't understand why they said it was illegal.  After all, handing out information doesn't actually violate the 2nd amendment

So I guess you wouldn't mind publishing lists of women who have had abortions?
 
2013-02-07 08:50:40 AM  
The Supreme Court in New York is the lowest court of general jurisdiction.  Our highest court is the Court of Appeals.  An opinion by a Supreme Court justice is scarcely worth the paper it's written on.

/The more you know.
 
2013-02-07 08:51:33 AM  

HotWingConspiracy: Frank N Stein: /It's funny cause my first name actually is Alex
//Made me do a double take
///Published fark list somewhere?

I maintain an extensive Fark database so I can always find people with booze.


Once I drunkenly tried to convince Drew to unban me at a bar. It didn't work.
 
2013-02-07 08:51:46 AM  

milesl: Weird, can someone parse the court speak?  I don't understand why they said it was illegal.  After all, handing out information doesn't actually violate the 2nd amendment

So I guess you wouldn't mind publishing lists of women who have had abortions?


Medical records aren't public.
 
2013-02-07 08:52:00 AM  

milesl: Weird, can someone parse the court speak?  I don't understand why they said it was illegal.  After all, handing out information doesn't actually violate the 2nd amendment

So I guess you wouldn't mind publishing lists of women who have had abortions?


That's regulated by Federal Law.  HIPAA ring a bell?
 
2013-02-07 08:56:34 AM  
No one is taking away your guns idiots, most liberals own guns too, you must have forgot our full demographics.
 
2013-02-07 08:56:50 AM  
Fun fact: the Westchester County executive is a Republican.
 
2013-02-07 08:57:11 AM  

ongbok: You don't think that their should be a registry of firearm owners and what firearms they own to make them accountable for their guns?


Absolutely not.

A registry of firearms is a necessary precondition to confiscation.  It doesn't *ALWAYS* lead to that, but it's happened often enough in the last 30 years to make me wary of any such thing.

List of Confiscations of Registered Guns, last 30 years:

1. Semi-automatic and pump action rifles larger than .22 LR caliber  UK 1988
2. Handguns larger than .22 LR caliber  UK 1997
3. All modern handguns regardless of caliber  UK 1998
4. Semi-automatic and pump rifles and shotguns Australia 1997
5. So-called "Assault Weapons" NYC 1991

Those are just recent examples off the top of my head of registered guns being confiscated*.  There are more, and that's why I expect near zero compliance with the new New York State requirement to register "Assault Weapons".    I bet the number registered doesn't exceed 10% of the legally owned ones in the state right now when the registration becomes mandatory.


*In most cases, the owners were compensated with money for the confiscation, except for NYC.
 
2013-02-07 08:57:22 AM  

mattharvest: it's quite plausible that other NY judges (at the trial or appellate level) will disagree quite strenuously.


I surely hope not. If so, I hope they're de-benched immediately
 
2013-02-07 08:58:31 AM  
Having an abortion is medically confidential, and the information about it is federally protected.
Its called HIPPA.
Gun ownership is public knowledge, just like voting records, tax records and real estate ownership.

CSB:
Last night a guy came to my door, knew my name, knew we had a home alarm system and tried to sell us a different monitoring company.
The fact that we have a home security system (alarm) is PUBLIC KNOWLEDGE that anyone can access.
On file at our local city hall.
Because most municipalities insist that you get a damn alarm permit, if you want police response.
/end CSB

The same goes for registered gun owners.
As it should,.
 
2013-02-07 09:00:10 AM  

Blathering Idjut: dittybopper: I'm betting that when it goes to the Supreme Court, they will say essentially that one of the core purposes of the Second Amendment is self-defense...

You're correct, of course.  There's no doubt that a majority of the Supreme Court will do what they did in Heller to pull something out of their arse ignoring the clear language of the amendment by engaging in a Herculean effort in semantics and ignores the clear language of the actual text.  They're activist judges, after all.

...and because it says "keep and bear", not just "keep", that the states must issue CCWs to those who pass some objective criteria.

Judging by the number of CCWs issued- that objective criteria has sunk to the level of "does the requester steam a mirror when they put it under his nose?"  Way to many CCWs issued by states as it is,  If the reason debate has shown anything there are far too many unbalanced, tinfoil-hat types carrying around loaded guns in general society.


Heh, in your case, nomen est omen, eh?
 
2013-02-07 09:00:25 AM  

dittybopper: A registry of firearms is a necessary precondition to confiscation. It doesn't *ALWAYS* lead to that, but it's happened often enough in the last 30 years to make me wary of any such thing.

List of Confiscations of Registered Guns, last 30 years:


Did New York have a registry of everyone who owned a qualifying weapon?
 
2013-02-07 09:00:38 AM  

doglover: de-benched


Is that a word?

From what I can tell, while the NYS Supreme Court judges are elected, NYS Court of Appeals judges are not.
 
2013-02-07 09:01:09 AM  

devek: No one is taking away your guns idiots


Well, not all of them at least.

devek: most liberals own guns too


It's actually around 40 percent, if you count all registered Democrats as "liberal"
 
2013-02-07 09:01:24 AM  

Frank N Stein: I don't like how cool story bro has become the preamble for the anecdote. IMO it should be a response phrase used to dismiss trolls.

Back on point: Here in Chicago, police commissioner Gary McCarthy has cryptically suggested that his officers should simply shoot concealed carry permits. But, in my own anecdote, I've found that cops here are sympathetic towards law abiding gun owners.

/csb


Fair enough on the csb thing.

But on topic, with very specific exceptions already managed by federal law, there are no 'gun owner' lists.
I have a driver's license, and while that infers that I own a car it doesn't guarantee that I do.
I could have a pilot's license.  That doesn't mean I own an airplane.

Hell, a friend of mine owns a handgun, keeps it at the firing range, and doesn't have a permit.
 
2013-02-07 09:01:47 AM  

Nekronn99: Gun ownership is public knowledge, just like voting records, tax records and real estate ownership.


Voting records aren't public knowledge, nor are tax records.

Real estate ownership *IS*, but real estate is different than most other property, in that it's a chunk of the Earth itself, and is thus unmovable.
 
2013-02-07 09:03:49 AM  

Nekronn99: The same goes for registered gun owners.
As it should,.


Why?
 
2013-02-07 09:05:56 AM  

MorrisBird: milesl: Weird, can someone parse the court speak?  I don't understand why they said it was illegal.  After all, handing out information doesn't actually violate the 2nd amendment

So I guess you wouldn't mind publishing lists of women who have had abortions?

That's regulated by Federal Law.  HIPAA ring a bell?



Funny you should mention that since one of Obama's proposals is piecing the protection of HIPAA for "Mental Illness".  That's sure to get people to seek treatment.   "Free Prozac if you're stressed from life, but please surrender your 2nd Amendment at the door"
 
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