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(SciFi Now)   Comics guru Mark Millar explains why a Justice League movie is "a good way to lose $200 million"   (scifinow.co.uk) divider line 129
    More: Interesting, Justice League, avengers assemble, WOLVERINE MOVIE, comics  
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6716 clicks; posted to Geek » on 06 Feb 2013 at 5:19 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-02-07 08:39:04 AM  

HeartBurnKid: I just want to drive home how comically stupid Millar's reasoning is:

Captain America: created in 1941
Iron Man: created in 1963
Thor:  created in, roughly, the seventh farking century
The Hulk: created in 1962
Hawkeye: created in 1964
Black Widow: created in 1962
Nick Fury: created in 1963


Wow, imagine how old would they be today in dog years.
 
2013-02-07 08:53:32 AM  

TwistedFark: TopoGigo: Lord Binky: The best that Marvel has ever produced for television - Avengers: Earth's Mightiest Heroes - a damn good cartoon show - still feels juvenile compared to Justice League.

I agree 100% with this statement. I really loved that show, and it had some fantastic writing. Even with the sophomoric feel, and the overplayed intros to the characters, it probably was as good as the original Justice League. It didn't come close to measuring up to JLU, though.

Then you look at DC's animated movies. They blow any of Marvel's blockbuster movies out of the water in any metric other than the sheer awesome factor they gave Tony Stark.

No. Flat out - no.

I get that this is your opinion, but you should understand that it's severely in the minority. I won't rant and rave at you because I understand that you're not actually critically assessing any of the films - but still.... gack.  You should feel bad for typing that, it actually embarassed me to read it.


You're an idiot.
 
2013-02-07 09:17:14 AM  
With WB Movies thrown into the mix I agree with his conclusion but the path he took to get there I'm a little more iffy about.  These characters can work on the big screen - bats and supes have had successful movies and I've little doubt the rest of the League could as well if done right.  And lets be honest, we saw the same arguments against the Avengers movie right before it made over a billion bux.

The JLA movie is going to suck because WB execs saw the success of the Avengers and are in a mad dash to get their motherfarkin movie check, skipping the bothersome set-up window that the Avengers had from two iron man movies, cap, thor, and to some extent a coupla hulk movies.  Its going to have a half-dozen writers, its going to be entirely suit-driven, and its going to be awful.

Prove me wrong, WB, I triple-dog dare you.
 
2013-02-07 09:24:10 AM  

ianthetexan: Millar is Fox's super hero franchise chief. Let's not forget that he failed on two major franchises:  X-Men (III and Origins were crap on film), and Fantastic Four (gaaaaaah).


Didn't Millar just get there a few months ago?
 
2013-02-07 09:32:11 AM  
All I want from DC is a Starman tv series. And maybe a Doom Patrol or Spectre cartoon.

www.stanza101.com
 
2013-02-07 09:58:16 AM  

HeartBurnKid: I just want to drive home how comically stupid Millar's reasoning is:

Captain America: created in 1941
Iron Man: created in 1963
Thor:  created in, roughly, the seventh farking century
The Hulk: created in 1962
Hawkeye: created in 1964
Black Widow: created in 1962
Nick Fury: created in 1963


I think you inadvertently point out that it might be easier updating Cold War-era heroes (especially for the "War on Terror" age) than it is to update pre-World War II-era heroes. And Captain America works without much updating because he's supposed to be a contrast to the modern age.
 
2013-02-07 10:16:10 AM  

likefunbutnot: So Superman is benevolent enough to get a kitty out of a tree, but if he hears non-consensual sex three blocks away or notices a parent beating their kid with his X-ray vision, that's not his deal? Does he stop a schoolyard bully? What about the possibly justifiable school shooting that happens in response? Does he turn a blind eye to gay bashing because Pa Kent had a bad night on shore leave in Bangkok?

That's not to say that morality is somehow absolute, but in effectively acting as a sort of local deity, he has to assume a corresponding level of responsibility even for the things that he allowed to happen through inaction. That's just the law of super heroes.


I would love it if a superman movie dealt with some more serious shiat like that. I mean it seems that superman from what I have read or seen is either dealing with local problems (bank robbers, or other criminals) or cosmic problems (Zod, or other guys like that who could destroy the earth) but what about the in between problems. I mean if super man existed in our world Al Queda exist, or  would superman have found them and brought them all to justice before 9/11 happened? What about natural disasters, say something like the Japan earthquake/Tsunami from a few years ago, would superman have stopped a bunch of the damage. And if not would people be pissed off about it.

And then lets take it a step further. If superman was around would there be any dictators or warlords controlling countries? What would North Korea look like? And if he takes down North Korea, what about somewhere like Cuba. And if he can actually control governments how does he decide which ones? Does he fix syria? What about a country that has the death penalty or mandatory military service, or even something simple like no government funded health care. Would he force those countries to change?
 
2013-02-07 10:20:18 AM  

Nexzus: Reboot Batman to fit in, so quickly after the TDK trilogy, and you're gonna confuse the general movie going public. Try to shoehorn, say, Joseph Gordon-Levitt to try to tie things together and it's gonna be stupid.


If they try to shoe horn any other DC movie into the universe that Nolan made for batman it is going to suck. I mean first off it is going to make any big gun super hero look like a total asshole. I mean look at the dark knight rises, Bane held Gotham hostage for months with a weapon of mass destruction. Superman or Green Lantern could have taken care of that bomb in about a minute. So why didn't anyone help batman out, unless they are all jerks.  Plus I have said it before but in the Batman movies the only thing close to a super power we saw was a guy who could survive and walk around with half his face blown off.
 
2013-02-07 10:40:09 AM  

mechgreg: And then lets take it a step further. If superman was around would there be any dictators or warlords controlling countries? What would North Korea look like? And if he takes down North Korea, what about somewhere like Cuba. And if he can actually control governments how does he decide which ones? Does he fix syria? What about a country that has the death penalty or mandatory military service, or even something simple like no government funded health care. Would he force those countries to change?


That's why I said I would prefer it if Zod were our leader. He wouldn't put up with any evil dictators. That's his farking job. And the terrorism shiat wouldn't fly either.
 
2013-02-07 10:42:33 AM  

mechgreg: likefunbutnot: So Superman is benevolent enough to get a kitty out of a tree, but if he hears non-consensual sex three blocks away or notices a parent beating their kid with his X-ray vision, that's not his deal? Does he stop a schoolyard bully? What about the possibly justifiable school shooting that happens in response? Does he turn a blind eye to gay bashing because Pa Kent had a bad night on shore leave in Bangkok?

That's not to say that morality is somehow absolute, but in effectively acting as a sort of local deity, he has to assume a corresponding level of responsibility even for the things that he allowed to happen through inaction. That's just the law of super heroes.

I would love it if a superman movie dealt with some more serious shiat like that. I mean it seems that superman from what I have read or seen is either dealing with local problems (bank robbers, or other criminals) or cosmic problems (Zod, or other guys like that who could destroy the earth) but what about the in between problems. I mean if super man existed in our world Al Queda exist, or  would superman have found them and brought them all to justice before 9/11 happened? What about natural disasters, say something like the Japan earthquake/Tsunami from a few years ago, would superman have stopped a bunch of the damage. And if not would people be pissed off about it.

And then lets take it a step further. If superman was around would there be any dictators or warlords controlling countries? What would North Korea look like? And if he takes down North Korea, what about somewhere like Cuba. And if he can actually control governments how does he decide which ones? Does he fix syria? What about a country that has the death penalty or mandatory military service, or even something simple like no government funded health care. Would he force those countries to change?


I think the Authority dealt with that in their comic. They decided going after giant cosmic threats was a bit silly if they just let ordinary dictators do whatever they wanted, so they stopped the dictators too. The rest of the world's nations got a bit upset that their sovereignty was being challenged so they tried to stop the Authority. Eventually they just ended up taking over the entire world to try and solve its problems. The Elite from 'Superman vs the Elite' were based on them, and it's a pretty good read, if a bit 90's.
 
2013-02-07 11:36:15 AM  

Brass_Robo: I think the Authority dealt with that in their comic. They decided going after giant cosmic threats was a bit silly if they just let ordinary dictators do whatever they wanted, so they stopped the dictators too. The rest of the world's nations got a bit upset that their sovereignty was being challenged so they tried to stop the Authority. Eventually they just ended up taking over the entire world to try and solve its problems. The Elite from 'Superman vs the Elite' were based on them, and it's a pretty good read, if a bit 90's.


I remember that, that was back when I was reading comics. It was actually kind of interesting and it would be cool if superman did something similar (The Authority kicking the Russians out of Chechnya was funny). Although wasn't that when the fake versions of the Avengers took over because the Authority was challenging the power of the world's nations? Because I thought that was kind of lame.
 
2013-02-07 12:50:24 PM  

TwistedFark: TopoGigo: Lord Binky: The best that Marvel has ever produced for television - Avengers: Earth's Mightiest Heroes - a damn good cartoon show - still feels juvenile compared to Justice League.

I agree 100% with this statement. I really loved that show, and it had some fantastic writing. Even with the sophomoric feel, and the overplayed intros to the characters, it probably was as good as the original Justice League. It didn't come close to measuring up to JLU, though.

Then you look at DC's animated movies. They blow any of Marvel's blockbuster movies out of the water in any metric other than the sheer awesome factor they gave Tony Stark.

No. Flat out - no.

I get that this is your opinion, but you should understand that it's <b>severely in the minority</b>. I won't rant and rave at you because I understand that you're not actually critically assessing any of the films - but still.... gack.  You should feel bad for typing that, it actually embarassed me to read it.


Now THAT'S how you troll...
 
2013-02-07 12:59:11 PM  

Mugato: mechgreg: And then lets take it a step further. If superman was around would there be any dictators or warlords controlling countries? What would North Korea look like? And if he takes down North Korea, what about somewhere like Cuba. And if he can actually control governments how does he decide which ones? Does he fix syria? What about a country that has the death penalty or mandatory military service, or even something simple like no government funded health care. Would he force those countries to change?

That's why I said I would prefer it if Zod were our leader. He wouldn't put up with any evil dictators. That's his farking job. And the terrorism shiat wouldn't fly either.


Again, Justice League animated already did it.

upload.wikimedia.org 

This is why I think any movie version of Justice League will suck - it won't be as thoughtfully crafted by people who give a shiat about the DC universe as the animated series was.

Sadly, I think the same about any more Superman movies. Superman TAS was better than the live action movies, except (most of) Superman 1 and  2...
 
2013-02-07 01:50:50 PM  

Supes: Throw in Martian Manhunter, and eliminate Superman. Don't explain it, explanations don't matter. Having Superman around just upsets the balance.


I'm willing to acknowledge that it's tricky to write good Superman stories (but I'll also argue that when they do, those are among the very best stories), but it seems odd that you want to swap him out with one of the few characters that are even more level-unbalanced than Superman.

Instead of a super strong, flying brick with super senses and laser eyes, you get a super strong, flying brick with super senses, shape shifting and vast mental powers. About the only thing that offsets this is that he  might be vulnerable to fire (although, these days, that's more of a psychological limitation than an actual weakness).

If you really want a replacement brick, how about Big Barda?
 
2013-02-07 01:53:30 PM  

ianthetexan: Millar is Fox's super hero franchise chief. Let's not forget that he failed on two major franchises:  X-Men (III and Origins were crap on film), and Fantastic Four (gaaaaaah). So before he even gets a chance to say how unrelatable he thinks DC's characters are to audiences, we have to remember that Nolan Batman worked and worked well because of its characters, while he shiat the bed on two franchises noted for the strength and relatability of theirs.

The direct relationship of Marvel comics to live action movies is amazing, they do a fairly good job and they make fun and watchable cinema. The direct relationship of DC comics to animated films is amazing. Just about everything the DCAU puts out is more watchable than anything Marvel has put out into the animated realm.

Justice League was a great TV show that was able to pull of actual drama and fun while having large-scale super battles.
X-Men: Evolution was on television at some point. I watched it and honestly couldn't tell you a single thing that happened.
The Avengers Animated movie was choppy and awkward.

Even beyond that, Justice League: Doom, Batman/Superman: Apocalypse, and Green Lantern: Emerald Knights were all better than any animated picture that Marvel has managed to date. It's a shame that writing talent won't be put to work on a live-action JLA movie.


I agree with you in most respects, except that Marvel's animated offerings aren't universally awful, just their TV shows.  I loved Hulk vs. Wolverine (Deadpool cameo!  A good one!), and Planet Hulk was really solid (even got the Mrs. to agree to that one).  If I hadn't seen any of the DC movies you mentioned, I would have enjoyed Iron Man more, but it was too slow, and Dr. Strange is just not my cup of tea.  Even Wolverine vs. Thor was enjoyable.

The Avengers animated movie was just episodes of the TV show stitched together, and that show was crap to begin with, easily on par with the 90s Iron Man or FF shows, but with worse animation.  Ultimate Spider-Man is not what I'm looking for in an SM cartoon, but hey, it seems to be getting good reviews.

I think the specialization in live action or animated says something about the fundamental differences between DC and Marvel.  DC's characters are meant to always just "be", allowing for episodic adventures in a way that the tightly integrated, reality based Marvel U is just not able to anymore.  Pre-Onslaught Marvel could still pull off some great standalone stories for the individual groups, but that's been blown away by everything since.  While I've enjoyed the ride (particularly Civil War and Secret Invasion), I'm not sure how Marvel can back off and get back to doing stand alone things.  In that respect, I think that DC is better positioned to spring a new type of comic book movie on us, one that doesn't rely on 3 movies to tell an arc including the origin and instead just drops us into the action Superman Returns style but with, y'know, plot and good editorial decisions.
 
2013-02-07 01:59:24 PM  

Metaluna Mutant: Again, Justice League animated already did it.


Spider-Man works in part because of the ongoing internal conversation about his place in the world, having his powers and obligations and having to struggle with every day life.

Superman does not have to struggle to live, ever. He is effectively omniscient; he can see and hear everything that happens within some undefined range of his physical being, plus he has who knows what kind of monitoring systems happening going on at the Fortress of Solitude. But he is to the best of my knowledge NEVER plagued with any concerns over his behavior. He seems to have absolute faith in his own righteousness.

I'll grant that I can't really stand to read DC Comics, so perhaps there are depictions of the character as something other than a zealot, but that's the impression I have from cartoons and movies. And it's not really that much of a stretch to say that he's not behaving in a particularly different fashion from the characters in that episode of Justice League. The being who chooses to be a reporter and cover the minutes of Metropolis Sanitation Board Meetings instead of preventing a fatal car car is already making a judgment of human life, whether or not he actively took it.

Kurt Busiek kind of touched on this sort of thing with his Superman Expy in Astro City, but only in the most cursory fashion, and Doctor Manhattan's perspective on these ideas is probably smarter than anything that's ever been done in the history of Superman, but the philosophical implications suggested by his abilities are far more interesting than the character ever could be.
 
2013-02-07 02:06:04 PM  

mechgreg: That's not to say that morality is somehow absolute, but in effectively acting as a sort of local deity, he has to assume a corresponding level of responsibility even for the things that he allowed to happen through inaction.


Deities have a habit of demanding worship, so be careful what you ask for.

The real answer, of course, is the a narrative built around Superman doing nothing but stopping petty crimes 24 hours a day would be a farking boring story. Good stories need characters and "guy flying around doing nothing but fighting crime" isn't much of a character.

Any complaint that basically requires you to destroy the story to make it fit into some ill-considered notion of realism (or moral reasoning, in this case) fits squarely into MST3K's "you should really just relax" territory.
 
2013-02-07 02:40:27 PM  

mechgreg: likefunbutnot: So Superman is benevolent enough to get a kitty out of a tree, but if he hears non-consensual sex three blocks away or notices a parent beating their kid with his X-ray vision, that's not his deal? Does he stop a schoolyard bully? What about the possibly justifiable school shooting that happens in response? Does he turn a blind eye to gay bashing because Pa Kent had a bad night on shore leave in Bangkok?

That's not to say that morality is somehow absolute, but in effectively acting as a sort of local deity, he has to assume a corresponding level of responsibility even for the things that he allowed to happen through inaction. That's just the law of super heroes.

I would love it if a superman movie dealt with some more serious shiat like that. I mean it seems that superman from what I have read or seen is either dealing with local problems (bank robbers, or other criminals) or cosmic problems (Zod, or other guys like that who could destroy the earth) but what about the in between problems. I mean if super man existed in our world Al Queda exist, or  would superman have found them and brought them all to justice before 9/11 happened? What about natural disasters, say something like the Japan earthquake/Tsunami from a few years ago, would superman have stopped a bunch of the damage. And if not would people be pissed off about it.

And then lets take it a step further. If superman was around would there be any dictators or warlords controlling countries? What would North Korea look like? And if he takes down North Korea, what about somewhere like Cuba. And if he can actually control governments how does he decide which ones? Does he fix syria? What about a country that has the death penalty or mandatory military service, or even something simple like no government funded health care. Would he force those countries to change?


Certain elements of that were behind Siegel and Shuster's intial creation of Superman. Matter of fact some of Superman's first foes were mob bosses and corrupt officials. The problem is to do those types of stories now for the big screen you'd need to significantly depower Superman and movie goers just aren't gonna go to see a Superman who can't fly or shoot laser beams from his eyes.
 
2013-02-07 02:46:20 PM  

Metaluna Mutant: Mugato: mechgreg: And then lets take it a step further. If superman was around would there be any dictators or warlords controlling countries? What would North Korea look like? And if he takes down North Korea, what about somewhere like Cuba. And if he can actually control governments how does he decide which ones? Does he fix syria? What about a country that has the death penalty or mandatory military service, or even something simple like no government funded health care. Would he force those countries to change?

That's why I said I would prefer it if Zod were our leader. He wouldn't put up with any evil dictators. That's his farking job. And the terrorism shiat wouldn't fly either.

Again, Justice League animated already did it.

 

This is why I think any movie version of Justice League will suck - it won't be as thoughtfully crafted by people who give a shiat about the DC universe as the animated series was.

Sadly, I think the same about any more Superman movies. Superman TAS was better than the live action movies, except (most of) Superman 1 and  2...


Or even, in some instances, by comics editorial. After Justice League Unlimited wrapped up, Dwayne McDuffie had a brief run on the Justice League comic. There was so much interference from editorial, so many characters he wasn't allowed to use, so many stories that were approved had to be changed at the last minute because the suits changed their minds that McDuffie walked away.
 
2013-02-07 03:11:59 PM  
Dwayne McDuffie was largely in charge of the Animated DCU. He had a lot of passion for the characters, and it showed.

His death really hurts the possibility of a great JLA movie, because nobody else has really stepped up to fill his shoes.
 
2013-02-07 03:28:28 PM  

Some 'Splainin' To Do: Any complaint that basically requires you to destroy the story to make it fit into some ill-considered notion of realism (or moral reasoning, in this case) fits squarely into MST3K's "you should really just relax" territory.


You quoted the wrong person since you were actually replying to me but I'll freely acknowledge that the idea of Superman bothers me for exactly the same reason I'm bothered by the idea of any other interventionist deity, especially since the stories that tend to be told about him invariably involve beating up muggers or dealing with inconsequential villains. I'm probably more bothered by the idea that the stories being told about this character are so far beneath his abilities. Like writers can't think of anything better for Superman to do with his time.
 
2013-02-07 03:52:46 PM  

Pyynk: Certain elements of that were behind Siegel and Shuster's intial creation of Superman. Matter of fact some of Superman's first foes were mob bosses and corrupt officials. The problem is to do those types of stories now for the big screen you'd need to significantly depower Superman and movie goers just aren't gonna go to see a Superman who can't fly or shoot laser beams from his eyes.


But wasn't Siegel and Shuster's superman pretty damn weak compared to modern superman? At the time he was basically a super strong guy, that could run very fast, who couldn't be injured and could jump very far or very high. That kind of guy I can see fighting gangsters and that sort of thing, but when you can fly at the speed of light or survive in space, you should have better things to do.
 
2013-02-07 04:04:57 PM  

mechgreg: Pyynk: Certain elements of that were behind Siegel and Shuster's intial creation of Superman. Matter of fact some of Superman's first foes were mob bosses and corrupt officials. The problem is to do those types of stories now for the big screen you'd need to significantly depower Superman and movie goers just aren't gonna go to see a Superman who can't fly or shoot laser beams from his eyes.

But wasn't Siegel and Shuster's superman pretty damn weak compared to modern superman? At the time he was basically a super strong guy, that could run very fast, who couldn't be injured and could jump very far or very high. That kind of guy I can see fighting gangsters and that sort of thing, but when you can fly at the speed of light or survive in space, you should have better things to do.


Yep. As I said, if you wanted to do those kinds of stories now you'd need to signficantly de-power the character. And like it or no, nobody is going to go see a Superman movie where Superman can't fly.

If anything the modern action hero has just as much in common with the original Superman as the modern Superman does.
 
2013-02-07 04:20:04 PM  
I wish Green Lantern hadnt sucked, but i also wish it could have been DCs Iron Man. A broader universe doesnt work with the Nolanverse,  that would have been idiotic, yeah Batman threw Superman out of Gotham during the Cataclysm arc, but the movie was different enough that if he existed, Superman should have just flown in, snatched the truck with the nuke and tossed it into the sun. Then scooped up Bane, toss him into blackgate and weld the doors shut again with his heat vision. So in that context, a Batman reboot is justified if theyre going to build it all up over a decade and give the big five at least their own movies, but theyre not going to bother.

They could have done it with Green Lantern, they could have gotten the ball rolling, throw a few references around, hints of a larger shared continuity... they just didnt. :-/
 
2013-02-07 06:12:37 PM  

Dumb-Ass-Monkey: Dwayne McDuffie was largely in charge of the Animated DCU. He had a lot of passion for the characters, and it showed.

His death really hurts the possibility of a great JLA movie, because nobody else has really stepped up to fill his shoes.


McDuffie's influence definitely was felt in JLU but he wasn't running the DCAU, that was mostly Timm as far as I recall (I say this as a huge fan of McDuffie's).
 
2013-02-07 11:09:10 PM  

Cyno01: I wish Green Lantern hadnt sucked, but i also wish it could have been DCs Iron Man. A broader universe doesnt work with the Nolanverse,  that would have been idiotic, yeah Batman threw Superman out of Gotham during the Cataclysm arc, but the movie was different enough that if he existed, Superman should have just flown in, snatched the truck with the nuke and tossed it into the sun. Then scooped up Bane, toss him into blackgate and weld the doors shut again with his heat vision. So in that context, a Batman reboot is justified if theyre going to build it all up over a decade and give the big five at least their own movies, but theyre not going to bother.

They could have done it with Green Lantern, they could have gotten the ball rolling, throw a few references around, hints of a larger shared continuity... they just didnt. :-/


GL had Amanda Waller (basically DC's Nick Fury) and an allusion to "a suspected alien in Metropolis." It's not much, but it's there.

I too wish that Green Lantern was able to be Warner Brothers' "Iron Man." Unfortunately, the problem with Green Lantern, to me, was that the producers just didn't understand what made people love Iron Man. The only thing Green Lantern had going for it were decent to good visual effects ( except for scale - Green Lantern and Parallax were comparable to the size of the sun in the climax), but movie goers can watch Transformers if they want that stuff. No, Green Lantern was a Dagwood sandwich of mistakes. Poor casting choices (Ryan Reynolds just make for a good Hal Jordan - not even a good Guy Gardner; Blake Lively is dull eye candy), poor script writing choices, middling direction at best (again, the scaling of celestial bodies, as well as the editing of things like the training sequence), and the characters in general weren't written in any engaging way.

I simply don't believe that Marvel's characters are really that much better than DC's - Marvel's just been much better at modernizing them. If Thor and Captain America can be made interesting and work, then any DC character can work. If Marvel's characters were written in the style of Stan Lee today, everyone would think that they're just as corny as DC's characters (outside of Batman) are perceived. I firmly believe that it's WB's fault for the poor public perception of DC characters and if they drop the ball on Justice League, it's going to be a really long time before that is fixed, if ever.
 
2013-02-08 01:27:44 AM  
I would rather see a movie of deliveryboyman than watch another movie with superman.

fark superman.

/doesn't like supes

I thoroughly enjoy most of DCs characters though.
 
2013-02-08 12:24:34 PM  

Lord Binky: GL had Amanda Waller (basically DC's Nick Fury) and an allusion to "a suspected alien in Metropolis." It's not much, but it's there.


Heh. No it didnt, you actually read me suggest that they shouldve done that in some previous Fark thread, i know i have a few times, i just happened to leave that bit out of my standard rant about the GL movie this time.

http://www.fark.com/comments/6334354/70063390#c70063390

http://www.fark.com/comments/7081362/76597850#c76597850
 
2013-02-08 02:42:34 PM  
A Justice League movie is easy, take the iconic big five Super Man, Wonder Woman, Batman, Green Lantern, The Flash and don't explain their origins, hell don't even do a how we all got together movie just have them be big dam hero's against a big dam bunch of bad guys. No angst, no whining, no Smallville shiat, just big dam heroes.

this
 
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