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(ESPN)   Miami Times: We have more names of players, but we aren't releasing them because we can't say they took steroids. Yahoo Sports: You won't but we will   (espn.go.com) divider line 82
    More: Interesting, Miami, Yahoo, steroids, Gio Gonzalez, Francisco Cervelli, Ryan Braun, Asdrubal Cabrera, Miami New Times  
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2862 clicks; posted to Sports » on 06 Feb 2013 at 10:05 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-02-06 09:39:30 AM
Aw jeez not this etc etc
 
2013-02-06 10:13:23 AM
Man, Ryan Braun's rolodex of excuses must be jam packed.
 
2013-02-06 10:15:51 AM
I still don't believe he did it but holy crap, pay your damn bills.
 
2013-02-06 10:16:50 AM
Major League Baseball officials have asked the Miami New Times for the records the newspaper obtained for last week's report. Miami New Times editor Chuck Strouse said Tuesday the paper had not yet decided how to respond, describing MLB's move as a request and noting the league does not have legal subpoena power.

Their lack of enthusiasm to had over the records makes me doubt their legitimacy or how much damning evidence is actually on them.
 
2013-02-06 10:19:45 AM

CipollinaFan: Their lack of enthusiasm to had over the records makes me doubt their legitimacy or how much damning evidence is actually on them.


Or that they are protecting their sources from legal danger.
 
2013-02-06 10:21:00 AM

thecpt: I still don't believe he did it but holy crap, pay your damn bills.


This.
 
2013-02-06 10:23:33 AM
Umm subby, why not link directly to Yahoo Sports instead of ESPN?
 
2013-02-06 10:24:16 AM
I agree that most of those guys probably juiced, but I don't think just because some scumbag doctor wrote down their names really means that there's evidence for it.
 
2013-02-06 10:26:21 AM

Gyrth: Umm subby, why not link directly to Yahoo Sports instead of ESPN?


Because my submission of that got redlit last night. Deal with it.
 
2013-02-06 10:29:16 AM

CatfoodSpork: I agree that most of those guys probably juiced, but I don't think just because some scumbag doctor wrote down their names really means that there's evidence for it.


*writes name down of every player in the AL West except for the Mariners with random cash figures next to it*

/Mariners still fail to win division
 
2013-02-06 10:29:52 AM

WTF Indeed: CipollinaFan: Their lack of enthusiasm to had over the records makes me doubt their legitimacy or how much damning evidence is actually on them.

Or that they are protecting their sources from legal danger.


Considering releasing medical records is a pretty clear HIPPA violation, I would think that perhaps the newspaper itself might be trying to square that circle. The Feds would probably be more than willing to grant them immunity in return for what they have though. MLB can't do that.
 
2013-02-06 10:31:27 AM

CheatCommando: Considering releasing medical records is a pretty clear HIPPA violation, I would think that perhaps the newspaper itself might be trying to square that circle. The Feds would probably be more than willing to grant them immunity in return for what they have though. MLB can't do that.


Bouch is not a doctor, he has no medical licence. Therefore no HIPPA laws were violated and all his records and the records kept by his employees are legal.
 
2013-02-06 10:36:13 AM

CatfoodSpork: I agree that most of those guys probably juiced, but I don't think just because some scumbag doctor wrote down their names really means that there's evidence for it.


That's why the Miami New Times didn't just start pointing fingers everywhere. They actually did what real reporters are supposed to do - take time investigating, instead of just throwing up random rumors under a sensationalist headline as soon as they saw one hastily-scribbled note. They've specifically said that the only names that they released (like A-Rod) are the ones that they've been able to verify actually bought specific things (even if it was only perfectly legal stuff, like Gio Gonzalez was listed as doing) from BioGenesis. Simply having a name on a single sheet wasn't enough for the New Times to consider it real proof - hence, why Ryan Braun's name (along with Cervelli and the others) was not released by them.
 
2013-02-06 10:37:37 AM

WTF Indeed: Gyrth: Umm subby, why not link directly to Yahoo Sports instead of ESPN?

Because my submission of that got redlit last night. Deal with it.


I think the bigger story here is that ESPN actually credited Yahoo Sports with something, including an actual link to the article, instead of saying "sources pointed us to Ryan Braun's name".
 
2013-02-06 10:43:19 AM

Joe_diGriz: ESPN actually credited Yahoo Sports with something, including an actual link to the article, instead of saying "sources pointed us to Ryan Braun's name".



they've taken a lot of criticism recently for their "ESPN has confirmed" or "ESPN broke the story" assertions, and although it wasn't directly related to their apparent change in position, the "RGIII isn't really black" incident also gave -- no pun intended -- Four Letters a black eye.

so i wonder if their recent rash of criticism on journalistic practice/integrity has made them decide not to be such dicks.

jay glazer was on carolla a few weeks ago, and he mentioned a recent incident where he tweeted some story about a player, and then a few hours later ESPN "broke the story".  he was pretty upset, and contacted ESPN and I think he said there was a twitter war about it.

ray ratto had something happen like that too during MLB season wrapping up.
 
2013-02-06 10:48:03 AM

Yanks_RSJ: Man, Ryan Braun's rolodex of excuses must be jam packed.


Of all the guys who had the "I didn't do PED's press conferences" I believed him the least. I mean I can't really recall one I did believe but with him I was thinking, 'dude, just shut up already. you got lucky on a ridiculous technicality - getting all self righteous is not helping your case because the more you say the less i believe you.'
 
2013-02-06 10:49:06 AM
yeah, Braun is innocent, it is just a total coincidence. Just like all the Lance Armstrong stuff was.
 
2013-02-06 10:49:54 AM
Where's Bud Selig from again?
 
2013-02-06 10:49:55 AM

thecpt: I still don't believe he did it but holy crap, pay your damn bills.


I really wish he/his people had come forward when the news first broke of this guy's ledger.  While it would have been a total PR move and not changed any facts, it would have made his name being on there a complete non-story at this point.

While I still do not think he did anything, I still cannot say without a doubt he did not.

//When Mark Schlereth, the meat-headiest meat head to ever sit in front of a microphone says that there is no reason to rush to judgement (apparently BALCO legitimately provided vitamins to the entire Broncos team while he was there so every member of that team would be on BALCO's logs), I just cannot use this information to completely reverse my admittedly biased opinion.
 
2013-02-06 10:54:42 AM

WTF Indeed: Therefore no HIPPA laws were violated and all his records and the records kept by his employees are legal


I stand corrected, but also your second clause does not follow from your first. Nothing may be illegal under HIPPA, but it is hardly the only law regarding the release of personal information. Again, sending them to the prosecutors would not be a problem, but releasing them to a non-governmental entity like MLB might be.
 
2013-02-06 11:01:10 AM

JohnBigBootay: Yanks_RSJ: Man, Ryan Braun's rolodex of excuses must be jam packed.

Of all the guys who had the "I didn't do PED's press conferences" I believed him the least. I mean I can't really recall one I did believe but with him I was thinking, 'dude, just shut up already. you got lucky on a ridiculous technicality - getting all self righteous is not helping your case because the more you say the less i believe you.'


Yeah that press conference was a terrible idea.  I was relatively indifferent until he spent 45 minutes telling everyone how far above the fray he was and pretending he wasn't questioning the collector's integrity while doing exactly that.  What a weasel.
 
2013-02-06 11:10:59 AM

roc6783: I still do not think he did anything


Why? Not being sure he did... fair enough. But being being pretty sure he didn't is a distinction I cannot fathom. Have we learned nothing in the last decade?
 
2013-02-06 11:17:55 AM

JohnBigBootay: Why? Not being sure he did... fair enough. But being being pretty sure he didn't is a distinction I cannot fathom. Have we learned nothing in the last decade?


Yeah, there is always doubt now.  There is a high enough chance that a false positive happened with the added facts about mishandled samples that could sway people who would normally be on the fence about such things to believe that maybe he didn't do it.  I could misdirect outrage and judge Braun, but I'd rather point my anger at MLB's helplessness when it comes to testing.

I'm just hoping there will never be any "evidence" that says Joey Bats took anything.  Haters have tried every ridiculous theory to create doubt that he's taken it, and normally you can say that I as a fan am just biased but accusations have to have limits for what is discernible.

/sorry for the rant.
//steroid convos give me feelings n stuff
 
2013-02-06 11:21:21 AM
Honestly, that's not a bad excuse for Braun to use

/He's probably lying, though
 
2013-02-06 11:27:21 AM

WTF Indeed: CheatCommando: ***snip***

Bouch is not a doctor, he has no medical licence. Therefore no HIPPA laws were violated and all his records and the records kept by his employees are legal.


I am not saying you are wrong, but being a doctor is not a requirement to violate HIPAA laws.

http://www.cms.gov/Regulations-and-Guidance/HIPAA-Administrative-Sim pl ification/HIPAAGenInfo/Downloads/CoveredEntitycharts.pdf

I could see a lawyer arguing whether or not Biogenesis is a covered entity, and here is the list of protected information:


What Information Is Protected

Information your doctors, nurses, and other health care providers put in your medical record

Conversations your doctor has about your care or treatment with nurses and othersInformation about you in your health insurer's computer system

Billing information about you at your clinic

Most other health information about you held by those who must follow these laws
 
2013-02-06 11:35:11 AM

Rex_Banner: Honestly, that's not a bad excuse for Braun to use

/He's probably lying, though


I guess as excuses go, it's the best possible fit, but for what practical reason would you meet with someone who has no medical license/degree to talk about testosterone levels?  Surely someone like Braun could afford to meet with a real expert in the field with an actual degree or license...

I'm sure it's all on the up and up.
 
2013-02-06 11:38:50 AM

pastorkius: I guess as excuses go, it's the best possible fit, but for what practical reason would you meet with someone who has no medical license/degree to talk about testosterone levels?  Surely someone like Braun could afford to meet with a real expert in the field with an actual degree or license...

I'm sure it's all on the up and up.


Hey, go to the experts.

simpsonswiki.net
 
2013-02-06 11:40:13 AM

thecpt: I could misdirect outrage and judge Braun, but I'd rather point my anger at MLB's helplessness when it comes to testing.


They have a good thing going - the players want to use without getting caught. And the owners don't want to catch them. So I think it's working out wonderfully for all involved. The mlbpa will never sign off on a drug testing program that will actually keep them from doing ped's. They could, but they won't. So they'll keep going with the token bullshiat program that will catch an idiot now and again to satisfy the massses and provide plausible deniability for the owners (we were trying to catch them!).
 
2013-02-06 11:41:09 AM

pastorkius: I'm sure it's all on the up and up.


The guy had an office - seems legit.
 
2013-02-06 11:45:33 AM

pastorkius: Rex_Banner: Honestly, that's not a bad excuse for Braun to use

/He's probably lying, though

I guess as excuses go, it's the best possible fit, but for what practical reason would you meet with someone who has no medical license/degree to talk about testosterone levels?  Surely someone like Braun could afford to meet with a real expert in the field with an actual degree or license...

I'm sure it's all on the up and up.


Oh, it's very fishy and more than likely bullshiat, but I think it's enough for reasonable doubt
 
2013-02-06 11:53:34 AM

rickythepenguin: Joe_diGriz: ESPN actually credited Yahoo Sports with something, including an actual link to the article, instead of saying "sources pointed us to Ryan Braun's name".


they've taken a lot of criticism recently for their "ESPN has confirmed" or "ESPN broke the story" assertions, and although it wasn't directly related to their apparent change in position, the "RGIII isn't really black" incident also gave -- no pun intended -- Four Letters a black eye.


Uh, how did I miss this?
 
2013-02-06 11:54:56 AM
 
2013-02-06 12:00:22 PM

DeWayne Mann: Here's a link for everyone to pretend to read:

http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/brauns-explanation-on-bioge ne sis-is-entirely-plausible/


It's absolutely plausible.  That doesn't mean anyone has to believe it.
 
2013-02-06 12:02:23 PM
Noooooooo, not The Cisco Kid!
 
2013-02-06 12:07:49 PM

thecpt: I'm just hoping there will never be any "evidence" that says Joey Bats took anything. Haters have tried every ridiculous theory to create doubt that he's taken it, and normally you can say that I as a fan am just biased but accusations have to have limits for what is discernible.


Bautista is an interesting case, because practically everything he's done in the past few years can be attributed to a (vastly) changed swing and better approach at the plate. A side-by-side comparison of him now versus even 5 years ago pretty much shows this. Of course, that doesn't mean that he isn't also taking stuff, but it would have to be the greatest miracle drug in history to be responsible for his turnaround.
 
2013-02-06 12:10:13 PM

DeWayne Mann: Here's a link for everyone to pretend to read:

http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/brauns-explanation-on-bioge ne sis-is-entirely-plausible/


I actually do believe him (in this case). But that doesn't mean it wasn't a stupid thing to do - consulting with someone who was already under investigation and who didn't exactly have the most sterling reputation even then.
 
2013-02-06 12:14:28 PM

JohnBigBootay: roc6783: I still do not think he did anything

Why? Not being sure he did... fair enough. But being being pretty sure he didn't is a distinction I cannot fathom. Have we learned nothing in the last decade?


A. I am a Brewers fan who especially likes Braun.  Until there is actual evidence of him doing something wrong, I will always lean toward him not doing anything wrong.

B. He had a positive test that was overturned on appeal*.

*I get that the appeal was overturned due to a procedural issue and not a refutation of the positive result. However, anything conclusion beyond that fact is speculation.

This isn't like the Bonds case where a guy is sitting in jail because he refuses to testify.  If Anderson's testimony wasn't going to incriminate Bonds, he wouldn't have gone to jail over it, therefore, a logical conclusion can be drawn that Bonds did something.  What that something will be speculated on until someone admits something.

In Braun's case, there is no corroborating "smoking gun".  There is a positive test result, which was overturned on appeal.  I am not saying that exonerates him, but I don't think that makes him dirty either, as we do live in a world where false positives do occur.

The main issue I have with the whole chain of events boils down to the timing of the positive test.  MLB randomly tests throughout the season with no warning, but the test that Braun fails is the scheduled test that every player takes right before the playoffs?  Braun is image conscious to a fault, yet fails the only scheduled test of the season?  That leaves enough doubt for me, until there is additional evidence.

I can totally understand how someone has the opposite interpretation, but I just can't agree until there is more evidence and less conjecture.  Again, I am a Brewers homer and will readily admit it colors my view.
 
2013-02-06 12:14:44 PM

Joe_diGriz: Bautista is an interesting case, because practically everything he's done in the past few years can be attributed to a (vastly) changed swing and better approach at the plate. A side-by-side comparison of him now versus even 5 years ago pretty much shows this. Of course, that doesn't mean that he isn't also taking stuff, but it would have to be the greatest miracle drug in history to be responsible for his turnaround.


And the turnaround happened during the last month of the season no less.  I just get tired of defending everything regarding him, but I respect what he's done for my team so much that his player jersey is the only one I own.  I live in the most biased Yankee area there is, full of people who buy into what Michael Kay says about "the man in white" and that Roger's centre is suddenly a hitter's park despite it being labeled a pitcher's park for the decade prior to Bautista arriving.

They'll keep calling me a homer, but I don't care.  I know they're the ones full of shiat.  They're just angry that they're players keep getting linked with roids.  Then again, if Joey is actually tied with roids I won't cry or anything.  I'll probably just stop watching baseball for a year or two.
 
2013-02-06 12:15:51 PM

DeWayne Mann: Here's a link for everyone to pretend to read:

http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/brauns-explanation-on-bioge ne sis-is-entirely-plausible/


Read the article, still not buying it. The extremely cynical side of me says he would use the same excuse with any shady PED's doctor. He was just a "consultant" for his appeal. Sure Braun.

/he's bloody lucky he got off on a technicality last time
 
2013-02-06 12:22:05 PM

roc6783: I get that the appeal was overturned due to a procedural issue and not a refutation of the positive result.


Not necessarily true. Braun's legal team argued that the improper handling could cause a false positive on its own. We'd have to ask Shyam Das if he was convinced by that line of reasoning, though.
 
2013-02-06 12:23:27 PM

roc6783: In Braun's case, there is no corroborating "smoking gun". There is a positive test result, which was overturned on appeal. I am not saying that exonerates him, but I don't think that makes him dirty either


Of course not. I'm just a cynic. I don't have proof of anything. But after having seen these scenarios play out over the years I am forced to conclude that lots of these guys have plausible stories but they all seem to end up the same way. Give me a million bucks that has to be wagered one way or the other and I'm going juicer. Doesn't mean I'm right. There's just a hell of a lot of smoke for there not to be a fire.
 
2013-02-06 12:26:50 PM

rickythepenguin: jay glazer was on carolla a few weeks ago, and he mentioned a recent incident where he tweeted some story about a player, and then a few hours later ESPN "broke the story".  he was pretty upset, and contacted ESPN and I think he said there was a twitter war about it.

ray ratto had something happen like that too during MLB season wrapping up.


One of the reasons why I don't give ESPN the clicks anymore.
 
2013-02-06 12:27:43 PM

HeathenHealer: Read the article, still not buying it.


I read it. It's plausible - one can be certain it wouldn't have been put out there if it wasn't at least plausible. It was a statement crafted by big money professionals who spent hours coming up with the perfect way to put it - of course it's plausible. But I don't buy it either. Why don't these guys (braun, armstrong, etc.) get their consultations from expert specialists who are not under investigation for enabling dopers? For fark's sake, brain could afford literally any specialist in the world but he goes to this guy for his expert testimony as his number one choice? That's.... NOT plausible.
 
2013-02-06 12:31:40 PM

JohnBigBootay: For fark's sake, brain could afford literally any specialist in the world but he goes to this guy for his expert testimony as his number one choice?


Braun never said Bosch was his number one choice, Braun wasn't limited to a single consultant, and Bosch wasn't used for testimony.

You sure you read the article?
 
2013-02-06 12:32:50 PM

JohnBigBootay: HeathenHealer: Read the article, still not buying it.

I read it. It's plausible - one can be certain it wouldn't have been put out there if it wasn't at least plausible. It was a statement crafted by big money professionals who spent hours coming up with the perfect way to put it - of course it's plausible. But I don't buy it either. Why don't these guys (braun, armstrong, etc.) get their consultations from expert specialists who are not under investigation for enabling dopers? For fark's sake, brain could afford literally any specialist in the world but he goes to this guy for his expert testimony as his number one choice? That's.... NOT plausible.


That's pretty similar to my reason why I think those that went to this guy for legit stuff aren't completely above guilt. There are better places to get your legal supplements than from a dinky Tampa area anti-aging clinic, no? Why go to this guy if you weren't also getting a little something on the side?
 
2013-02-06 12:35:50 PM

LessO2: One of the reasons why I don't give ESPN the clicks anymore.



yeah.....fox sports seems to get stories quicker and there's not as much of a Tebow / Boston / NYC angle.  also, fox doesn't embed video into their stories, which gets annoying.

cnnsi is pretty good, probably the best host of NFL commentators.

ESPN probably has the best host of MLB commentators but i care less about MLB and to what i said above, once the season starts it becomes BSPN / JeterSPN.  so ESPN is typically the third sprots outlet i use.  and i've kinda given up on sportscenter.
 
2013-02-06 12:39:35 PM

DeWayne Mann: Braun never said Bosch was his number one choice, Braun wasn't limited to a single consultant, and Bosch wasn't used for testimony.


It's still a good question though, and that's from someone who believes Braun.  It looks like an oddity that any skeptic would point out.
 
2013-02-06 12:40:08 PM

rickythepenguin: ESPN probably has the best host of MLB commentators


Nope. That would be MLBN*.

*Warning: MLBN may contain Kevin Millar. Women, children and the elderly may experience adverse reactions to Kevin Millar. If you have an adverse reaction to Kevin Millar, please stop watching MLBN for about an hour. He'll probably be gone by the time you get back.
 
2013-02-06 12:41:32 PM

thecpt: DeWayne Mann: Braun never said Bosch was his number one choice, Braun wasn't limited to a single consultant, and Bosch wasn't used for testimony.

It's still a good question though, and that's from someone who believes Braun.  It looks like an oddity that any skeptic would point out.


It's a question that was answered in the article.
 
2013-02-06 12:41:59 PM

rickythepenguin: and i've kinda given up on sportscenter.


How in the world can you be informed about sports without their various "expert" opinions or the Coors Light cold hard facts that aren't really facts at all?
 
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