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(Yahoo)   Two of the Great Lakes are about to be downgraded to just Good Lakes   (news.yahoo.com) divider line 90
    More: Scary, Great Lakes, water levels, Lake Ontario, Lake Huron, Traverse City, economic loss, lakes, Army Corps of Engineers  
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16694 clicks; posted to Main » on 06 Feb 2013 at 9:02 AM (2 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-02-06 10:07:07 AM  

StreetlightInTheGhetto: Gun to your head, soda... or pop?


what is soda?
 
2013-02-06 10:09:06 AM  

Dick Gozinya: To be fair, all that dredging of the St Clair river wasnt done to make the shipping channel deeper by removing more of the river bottom; it was done to remove all the chemical blobs left on the bottom of the river thanks to illegal dumping by the Dow chemical plant and the refineries on the Canadian side.

I grew up in that area (Port Huron). I've gone diving in the St Clair river many times with my brother. The stuff you find on the bottom of that river would make you not want to live on this planet anymore. My brother is able to bring up enough bottles and cans on each dive to pay for the air in his tanks. That plus all the lead fishing sinkers that he resells to the fishermen have pretty much paid for his diving hobby. It's disgusting really.


You (and especially your brother) are a far braver souls than I am, and I've swam in the Detroit.  Diving in St. Clair is a new to me.

If you'd like to read some depressing news about rare childhood cancer clusters around the St Clair River...

http://www.environmentreport.org/show.php?showID=620

/sigh
//f--k you Dow
 
2013-02-06 10:12:00 AM  

costermonger: StreetlightInTheGhetto: Less lake effect snow then too.  Sounds like it's back on track this year, though.

Nah, if the lakes are open, you get more snow - provided it's cold, which it wasn't last year. If the lakes freeze, lake effect kind of stops because of the lack of evaporation.

That is a ridiculously cool picture.


Eh, you're right.  I need to make coffee now.

McFifenstein: StreetlightInTheGhetto: Gun to your head, soda... or pop?

what is soda?


Well played!
 
2013-02-06 10:16:03 AM  
Woo Hoo!  This means there's more waterfront property to develop!
 
2013-02-06 10:16:57 AM  
There were many times growing up that the local newspaper would report a "spill" by Dow Canada a week or so after it happened.....and also advise us not to drink the water for a couple days. Gee, thanks for the heads up, farking Canucks.

BTW, i've been transplanted to the east coast for so long that i now call it soda, and want to correct my mother when we go visit and she tells us "there's pop in the fridge." My wife is from NY and had no idea what my mom was talking about. It was amusing to watch her grinding her gears trying to figure it out.
 
2013-02-06 10:17:07 AM  

bhcompy: HMS_Blinkin: But don't worry, climate change is still a liberal hoax because it snowed in Minnesota, amirite?

But studies have shown that Huron and Michigan fell by 10 to 16 inches because of dredging over the years to deepen the navigational channel in the St. Clair River, most recently in the 1960s. Dredging of the river, which is on the south end of Lake Huron, accelerated the flow of water southward from the two lakes toward Lake Erie and Lake Ontario, and eventually into the Atlantic Ocean.

Yes, let's blame it all on one scapegoat.  Instead, maybe you should blame it just plain on nearsighted humans.  Who'd have thought that dredging the waterways would mean more waterflow?


www.columbia.edu

Troll-ing picture.  That was diversion, not dredging.  But I like to remind people of it.

enry: If they get smaller than Lake Champlain, does it get a chance at being Great?


If Baikal doesn't get to, nope!
 
2013-02-06 10:17:22 AM  
davidhansen.org
 
2013-02-06 10:20:19 AM  

StrikitRich: Woo Hoo!  This means there's more waterfront property to develop!


And thanks to Lansing, it's much easier to do so!  Who needs to protect sand dunes!  They're sandy!

http://www.legislature.mi.gov/documents/2011-2012/publicact/pdf/2012 -P A-0297.pdf
 
2013-02-06 10:24:43 AM  

shastacola: My parents live on Lake Huron,their dock is now completely out of the water and what used to be their shoreline is now covered in grass.


Good, now the state can come out, remeasure your parents' property and adjust the property tax to reflect the new larger plot of land.  That should help our state economy.  Could happen and I'm glad my property is land locked.  Or in time, don't declare the property lakefront anymore and the value will drop as will the property taxes, if the lake drops far enough.

/Even if Lake Huron drops down to just a puddle, it will still be the greatest little lake because it's just so cuuute.
 
2013-02-06 10:25:35 AM  
i232.photobucket.com
Here's a current photo of Lake Erie taken from one of the jetties at Huntington Beach.
You can barely make out Cleveland in the distance.
 
2013-02-06 10:27:06 AM  
They're the same lake.  Call it Huron/Michigan.
 
2013-02-06 10:27:29 AM  
Michigan recently joined other Great Lakes states in passing the Great Lakes Compact, an agreement limiting large water withdrawals. Despite the fact that each fracking well can use up to five million gallons of locally-sourced water, the practice is exempt from regulation under the legislation implementing the Compact.
 
2013-02-06 10:30:57 AM  
Michigan steams like a young old man's dream.
The islands and bays are for sportsmen hikers.

/doesn't really rhyme, but neither did the original
 
2013-02-06 10:39:47 AM  
i301.photobucket.com
 
2013-02-06 10:40:44 AM  

Deep Contact: Michigan recently joined other Great Lakes states in passing the Great Lakes Compact, an agreement limiting large water withdrawals. Despite the fact that each fracking well can use up to five million gallons of locally-sourced water, the practice is exempt from regulation under the legislation implementing the Compact.


I find it really funny which site you ended up copy and pasting that from.  On a personal level.  Thought it sounded familiar.

2009, yes.  There's a bottled water loophole as well, for containers under 5.7 gallons.

I'm currently reading this, which pretty great so far and talks about the Compact but was written before it passed (in 06 I think).

ecx.images-amazon.com
 
2013-02-06 10:42:33 AM  

Dick Gozinya: There were many times growing up that the local newspaper would report a "spill" by Dow Canada a week or so after it happened.....and also advise us not to drink the water for a couple days. Gee, thanks for the heads up, farking Canucks.

BTW, i've been transplanted to the east coast for so long that i now call it soda, and want to correct my mother when we go visit and she tells us "there's pop in the fridge." My wife is from NY and had no idea what my mom was talking about. It was amusing to watch her grinding her gears trying to figure it out.


Uh, I'm from the East Coast (Pgh, PA) and we call it Pop.
/sorry for threadjack
 
2013-02-06 10:44:18 AM  

raerae1980: Dick Gozinya: There were many times growing up that the local newspaper would report a "spill" by Dow Canada a week or so after it happened.....and also advise us not to drink the water for a couple days. Gee, thanks for the heads up, farking Canucks.

BTW, i've been transplanted to the east coast for so long that i now call it soda, and want to correct my mother when we go visit and she tells us "there's pop in the fridge." My wife is from NY and had no idea what my mom was talking about. It was amusing to watch her grinding her gears trying to figure it out.

Uh, I'm from the East Coast (Pgh, PA) and we call it Pop.
/sorry for threadjack


Obligatory

strangemaps.files.wordpress.com
 
2013-02-06 10:45:19 AM  
I assume Pgh = Pittsburgh, and i definitely would not consider that "East Coast".
 
2013-02-06 10:46:02 AM  

StreetlightInTheGhetto: raerae1980: Dick Gozinya: There were many times growing up that the local newspaper would report a "spill" by Dow Canada a week or so after it happened.....and also advise us not to drink the water for a couple days. Gee, thanks for the heads up, farking Canucks.

BTW, i've been transplanted to the east coast for so long that i now call it soda, and want to correct my mother when we go visit and she tells us "there's pop in the fridge." My wife is from NY and had no idea what my mom was talking about. It was amusing to watch her grinding her gears trying to figure it out.

Uh, I'm from the East Coast (Pgh, PA) and we call it Pop.
/sorry for threadjack

Obligatory

[strangemaps.files.wordpress.com image 850x512]


Yea, I was thinking about that map.  Thanks.
 
2013-02-06 10:46:59 AM  

Dick Gozinya: I assume Pgh = Pittsburgh, and i definitely would not consider that "East Coast".


It is.  Midwest starts with Ohio.   PA = Keystone State and one of the original 13 colonies.
 
2013-02-06 10:49:31 AM  
Whether we say it's man-made or natural doesn't change the fact that it's happening.  We could even take the "warming" out of its name, just so we can get past describing a thing and getting lost in name-calling.  We are going through "climate turmoil"; maybe the marmosets have joined with the penguins and their evil plans are moving towards fruition.

Extreme weather affects us, and we're seeing more extremes.  Maybe if we could talk about ways to live with it and ways to possibly slow it down, we might live long enough to move our cities inland and improve our water delivery infrastructure.

// I admit it: I have an agenda. I want a farking hovercraft; either that or an amphibious vehicle.
 
2013-02-06 11:01:02 AM  
lives on Lake Superior, getting a kick...
 
2013-02-06 11:09:59 AM  

raerae1980: Dick Gozinya: I assume Pgh = Pittsburgh, and i definitely would not consider that "East Coast".

It is.  Midwest starts with Ohio.   PA = Keystone State and one of the original 13 colonies.


I'm from Western PA too and it is not east coast, it's mid-atlantic...
 
2013-02-06 11:33:26 AM  

Muta: The story I saw tried to blame this on global warming for the low water levels.  I wonder how much if this is due to more channels being dug around Niagara to power more hydro-electric plants.  Do those increase the amount of water that can flow out of Lake Erie?


No, the guy above you said it was global warming so it is global warming the consensus so shut up.
 
2013-02-06 11:35:45 AM  

Deep Contact: Michigan recently joined other Great Lakes states in passing the Great Lakes Compact, an agreement limiting large water withdrawals. Despite the fact that each fracking well can use up to five million gallons of locally-sourced water, the practice is exempt from regulation under the legislation implementing the Compact.


No, it's not.   The compact is international, and includes the government of Canada as well as provincial governments, who don't permit that as an exception.  Also, each US state implemented the compact as a simple "accept or not" vote of the negotiated compact language, so there's no wiggle room.

Also, five million gallons is only for the largest projects, most if it is re-usable or can be otherwise put back into the earth.  For comparison to the apparently huge amount of water you state each well can use, Lake superior alone contains about 4 quadrillion gallons of water.  All the fracking wells made to date in the US taking water from the lake and putting nothing back into the system would lower its level by less than 1 foot.


/large numbers without context or comparison are derpy.
 
2013-02-06 11:36:21 AM  

HMS_Blinkin: But don't worry, climate change is still a liberal hoax because it snowed in Minnesota, amirite?


Except the reduction in lake levels is being attributed to dredging.  If you had read the entire article you would have seen this:

FTA: But studies have shown that Huron and Michigan fell by 10 to 16 inches because of dredging over the years to deepen the navigational channel in the St. Clair River, most recently in the 1960s. Dredging of the river, which is on the south end of Lake Huron, accelerated the flow of water southward from the two lakes toward Lake Erie and Lake Ontario, and eventually into the Atlantic Ocean.

This is not about climate change.  It is about the mismanagement of resources.
 
2013-02-06 11:48:35 AM  

AccuJack: Deep Contact: Michigan recently joined other Great Lakes states in passing the Great Lakes Compact, an agreement limiting large water withdrawals. Despite the fact that each fracking well can use up to five million gallons of locally-sourced water, the practice is exempt from regulation under the legislation implementing the Compact.

No, it's not.   The compact is international, and includes the government of Canada as well as provincial governments, who don't permit that as an exception.  Also, each US state implemented the compact as a simple "accept or not" vote of the negotiated compact language, so there's no wiggle room.

Also, five million gallons is only for the largest projects, most if it is re-usable or can be otherwise put back into the earth.  For comparison to the apparently huge amount of water you state each well can use, Lake superior alone contains about 4 quadrillion gallons of water.  All the fracking wells made to date in the US taking water from the lake and putting nothing back into the system would lower its level by less than 1 foot.


/large numbers without context or comparison are derpy.


Put back into the earth full of fracking chemicals?  It isn't.  It never flows back into the lakes, and only 2% of the lakes are renewable.

And it does, currently, have an exemption.  The Compact refers to withdrawals out of the Great Lakes Basin.  Fracking withdrawals are exempt from the Michigan Water Withdrawal Assessment Tool.
 
2013-02-06 12:22:54 PM  
linkee to the
Great Lakes Water Level Dashboard:
http://www.glerl.noaa.gov/data/now/wlevels/levels.html
 
2013-02-06 12:22:57 PM  

HMS_Blinkin: But don't worry, climate change is still a liberal hoax because it snowed in Minnesota, amirite?


No, it's a hoax because even the scientists own data show nothing happened in the last 15 years.
 
2013-02-06 12:34:28 PM  

AccuJack: Deep Contact: Michigan recently joined other Great Lakes states in passing the Great Lakes Compact, an agreement limiting large water withdrawals. Despite the fact that each fracking well can use up to five million gallons of locally-sourced water, the practice is exempt from regulation under the legislation implementing the Compact.

No, it's not.   The compact is international, and includes the government of Canada as well as provincial governments, who don't permit that as an exception.  Also, each US state implemented the compact as a simple "accept or not" vote of the negotiated compact language, so there's no wiggle room.

Also, five million gallons is only for the largest projects, most if it is re-usable or can be otherwise put back into the earth.  For comparison to the apparently huge amount of water you state each well can use, Lake superior alone contains about 4 quadrillion gallons of water.  All the fracking wells made to date in the US taking water from the lake and putting nothing back into the system would lower its level by less than 1 foot.


/large numbers without context or comparison are derpy.


Using more water than reported is shrinking the lakes.
 
2013-02-06 12:37:48 PM  
It's places from outside the drainage basin figuring themselves able to take the water (and yes, that includes part of Chicago). When a place inside the drainage basin uses lake water, the water drains back into the lake. When a place outside the basin takes the water, that water is gone.

That's cold, that's unfeeling, but build inside the basin if you want the water.
 
2013-02-06 12:57:12 PM  

HMS_Blinkin: bhcompy: Yes, let's blame it all on one scapegoat.  Instead, maybe you should blame it just plain on nearsighted humans.  Who'd have thought that dredging the waterways would mean more waterflow?

I'll repeat my question from above: If Michigan and Huron are lower due to increased outflow into Erie/Ontario, why are the latter two lakes ALSO lower than average.  Wouldn't those two lakes be higher after getting more water from Michigan/Huron, if dredging was the cause of all of this?

Oh, and you're talking about dredging in the 1960s.  We're talking about the 2010s here.


Of course, to determine the effect of dredging the St. Clare plays on Lake Erie's levels you would have to compare pre-dredging average levels to post-dredging average levels.   Simply looking at Lake Erie's current levels over the past several years and claiming that they are lower due to climate change proves nothing, especially when it is false.

Specifically, Ohio disagrees with your assessment that Lake Erie is currently lower than average.  After discussing the effects of rainfall, temperature, wind has on evaporation of lake levels, it notes:

Notably above normal precipitation has fallen in the Lake Erie basin from February 2011 through December 2011. During this period, precipitation in the Lake Erie basin has averaged about 16 inches above normal. This precipitation and the combination of other hydrologic factors such as evaporation, have resulted in a rise of 25 inches in the level of Lake Erie during this period. Historic mean lake levels for the months of February and December are typically the same. The U.S. Army Corps of Engineers predicts that, based on the hydrologic condition of the Great Lakes basin at the end of December 2011 and anticipated future weather conditions, the level of Lake Erie is expected to remain above normal for the foreseeable future.Source:  http://www.dnr.state.oh.us/tabid/7829/default.aspx
 
2013-02-06 12:58:30 PM  
I don't get why they keep asking for more dredging. If you make the canals, streams, and rivers deeper... won't the same amount of water just flow to the new bottom, leaving them just as shallow as before, only with higher shores? I could only see it working if they built concrete locks in exactly the width of the typical shipper, preventing any absorption or runoff. Of course that would utterly sterilize any ecosystem, but hey, it's not like anyone gets food from the Mississippi, eh?
 
2013-02-06 01:52:21 PM  
And I see the democrats have diverted the funds for other purposes.  Will the stupid ever stop voting democrat?


"Shippers are taxed to support a harbor maintenance fund, but only about half of the revenue is spent on dredging. The remainder is diverted to the treasury for other purposes."
 
2013-02-06 03:38:48 PM  

aegean: And I see the democrats have diverted the funds for other purposes. Will the stupid ever stop voting democrat?


"Shippers are taxed to support a harbor maintenance fund, but only about half of the revenue is spent on dredging. The remainder is diverted to the treasury for other purposes."


What? You mean the government collected taxes for infrastructure and spent the money on something else? Next you are going to tell me they want to raise taxes to pay for infrastructure improvements.
 
2013-02-06 04:34:21 PM  
The global warming they try to scare us here with says it will make lakes and oceans rise...
 
2013-02-06 04:47:38 PM  
I'm hoping to get into water treatment/conservation when I graduate, just hope there's going to be water around to protect.

/studying greywater systems, really want one if I ever get a house.
 
2013-02-06 07:24:53 PM  

Graffito: [i232.photobucket.com image 539x404]
Here's a current photo of Lake Erie taken from one of the jetties at Huntington Beach.
You can barely make out Cleveland in the distance.


Nice photo. Way too chilly for me to consider going out there, although I did go by when Sandy came through. That was a neat sight.
 
2013-02-07 03:56:34 AM  

Ronin_S: I'm hoping to get into water treatment/conservation when I graduate, just hope there's going to be water around to protect.

/studying greywater systems, really want one if I ever get a house.


a) keep doing what you're doing.

b) You don't necessarily have to own a house to work the greywater.  You can set up pretty basic systems, from actually involving installation to just setting up a water saving ghetto engineering setup in the shower and wherever your laundry drains.  Hell, you can just set up a herb garden near the closest door to the kitchen, use decent soap, and a basin to catch your dish rinse water in that you can then just toss straight out the door into the garden.

I'm born and raised Michigander. so saving water benefits me in a purely economic sense... I don't have to worry about rationing/shortages and I probably hopefully never will.   But if I'm growing food in my garden to save money (amongst other reasons), reclaimed water is free and  city water ain't.
 
2013-02-07 09:32:20 AM  

Graffito: [i232.photobucket.com image 539x404]
Here's a current photo of Lake Erie taken from one of the jetties at Huntington Beach.
You can barely make out Cleveland in the distance.


I used to vacation at Middle Bass Island in Lake Erie. The lake was low 10 years ago when we stopped going. Fishing was awful.
 
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