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(Jezebel)   The best advice some people will never learn: "If women keep responding to you like you're some weirdo creeper, then chances are that you're acting like a weirdo creeper"   (jezebel.com) divider line 230
    More: Interesting, sex predator, p.f. chang, Amy Pond  
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10602 clicks; posted to Main » on 06 Feb 2013 at 12:45 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-02-06 12:49:24 AM
22 votes:
Which would be fine if creepy behavior was something besides flirting while being unattractive.
2013-02-06 02:06:44 AM
10 votes:
Men, if you never listen to anything I say ever again, hear this: these feminist articles about the rules of approaching women are made strictly to inhibit men with low sexual market value, because they're the only ones who would even consider taking this advice to heart. The most confident (and therefore desirable) men don't play by the rules.

Don't believe me? Read the erotic fan fiction that women write and see for yourself what turns them on. Sure, they don't want YOU taking their headphones off on the subway, but if George Clooney did that it would result in a vaginal flood of Biblical proportions.
2013-02-06 12:51:22 AM
10 votes:
When I was a hopeless single guy, I always hated when people said, "Be confident" as if it were some kind of useful advice.

That's kind of like a track coach saying, "Run faster."
2013-02-06 07:44:30 AM
7 votes:

Coelacanth Filet: PUA is social nihilism, sure, but it works. Hate the game, not the player, etc.


No, if they think that game is a good idea, I'm in the clear for hating the player.

But yeah, friend-zoning and the "women don't like 'nice guys'" stuff is still bullshiat.  If a woman tells you she likes you as a friend you have two scenarios:
1) She doesn't really like you, but is a nervous about how you will react if she actually flat out says "No, I'm not interested." Possibly because you're behaving like someone who's going to take great offense at the idea she wouldn't want to date you.
2) She actually thinks you're a fun person to hang out with.  This should not be the end of the farking world; friends are awesome.  Friendship isn't a consolation prize. If you don't want that, then back the fark off.  Be her friend or DON'T; don't skulk around behind her like some demented remora looking for any fragment of attention.

If she doesn't see you as a romantic option and just sees you as a friend (which she is allowed to farking do); that's when it's time to take a second to reevaluate why you're friends with the girl.  And if you think you really are okay with being her friend? Respect the other party's decision, act like a decent farking human being, and don't think she OWES you something because you're nice to her.  And if you can't do that?  You're not a "nice guy"; you're the same kind of douchebag you're railing against, you just hide it better.


And additional food for thought: If you start to wonder why all the girls you like only like jerks, it's possible you need to reevaluate what kind of women you are interested in.  Because, I'm not gonna lie, some women have appallingly shiatty taste in relationships, and some men have equally appalling taste.  It happens.

And as far as the idea that women are being shallow and that being creepy is just "hitting on someone while being unattractive", don't think for a farking SECOND that men can't be guilty of the same farking thing. If Salma Hayek sat right nex to you on the bus (when there are plenty of free seats) and pulled your headphone out to ask "what are you listening to?" You'd probably react a lot differently than if a 300 lb woman with greasy hair did.
2013-02-06 12:51:09 AM
7 votes:
If you think about things as much as this article would have you, then no two people would ever get together on the planet, ever.

The point is not to "never take the chance of offending" it's to learn to give up when you get a negative sign. If guys did that, everyone would be better off, but there would still be a good number of success stories. If she says no, take it for that and move on. And then women would be more likely to just say no rather than maybe, which they might feel obligated because it's "nicer"

Follow all the guidelines here--even the first one mentioned "does she want to be talked to?" how the fark should I know? You could always answer that "well, maybe not, I'd better not say anything"--and women would never be asked out. Then they'd complain about that...oh wait they already do.
2013-02-06 12:35:25 AM
7 votes:
The biggest common thread in every suggestion is that it generally makes people uncomfortable if you come on to them in a situation where they can't easily get away from you or are obligated to be nice.
2013-02-06 01:46:26 PM
6 votes:
It is esp. amusing when men on Fark biatch about good-looking men being able to get away with behavior less-attractive men don't.

Because, obviously, that's never true of women. Men don't ever tolerate behavior from attractive women they wouldn't put up with for a second from the uggos.

They're very ethical and even-handed that way. I know from reading many Fark threads.
2013-02-06 01:51:34 AM
6 votes:
FTA: "don't tell her that she'd be prettier if she smiled. She knows what face she's making and doesn't want anyone telling her to change it."

I don't know what possesses people to say that, but I hear it enough that it's turned into a pet peeve of mine. If there's ever a thread about me going postal on someone, chances are good that'll be what triggered it.
2013-02-06 01:31:49 AM
6 votes:

The_Sponge: FTFA:
If You Sit Next to Her On a PlaneNope. Leave her alone. Unless we're on Rihanna's 777 plane or your voice holds the secret to making our Xanax kick in faster, we don't want to talk to you.


What kind of stupid blanket rule is this?  That being said, I have never tried getting somebody's number on a plane.

CSB:

Back in 2004 I was on a short flight from Phoenix to Vegas.  I had an aisle seat, this cute girl in the middle, and this douche was next to the window.  I left her alone, but Mr. Douche tried way too hard....like showing off his new Motorola RAZR phone, and mentioning how he had connections at a few clubs in Vegas.

I did my best not to laugh...especially when he thought that showing off his phone was going to work.

/He did not get her number.


I was in almost the same exact position, except I was sitting next to the window and the creep had the aisle seat.  At one point he got up to go to the bathroom and she turned her head so fast to face me that I thought I heard her neck snap!  She looked me right in the eyes and said, "I'll give you $50 to change seats with me.  Please!"  I actually did laugh at her comment, not at her, but in a friendly manner.  I quickly changed seats with her, told her to keep the $50, and when the guy got back he was shocked to see the woman he had been chatting up was "fast asleep," her head against the bulk head, with her jacket as a pillow.  I quietly explained to him that she told me she suffers from migraines and asked to switch seats with me so that she could try and take a nap. Not surprisingly the guy did not try to chat me up.  After the flight we shared a laugh after he had gone and we ended up sharing a cab from O'hare to the North side of Chicago. And we had a nice conversation.  I could tell that she was not interested in me in the least bit so I just talked to her and never asked her for her phone number.  I got out first and that was the last I ever saw of her.  And, at some point she managed to slip a 50-dollar bill into my carry-on.  I wish she had not done so, but since she did I treated myself to a nice bottle of scotch.
2013-02-06 01:17:32 AM
6 votes:

AccuJack: If you think being seen as a "creeper" is bad, try being repeatedly friend zoned shortly after "hello".

Rejection is bad, being perceived as ruining a potential great friendship by wanting to actually *date* when that's what you had in mind from the start is really, really hard.

Seriously, I'm going to start acting like more of an asshole if it'll at least keep me from looking like someone who'd be a "really good friend".


The friend zone is not a thing. If you end up there, it's because the object of your affection thinks you are a nice person and enjoys your company but does not envision the two of you getting naked together. That's not the end of the world. At some point, you will find someone that DOES think it would be fun to get naked with you.
2013-02-06 12:50:49 AM
6 votes:

nelsonal: Which would be fine if creepy behavior was something besides flirting while being unattractive.


False.
2013-02-06 03:05:55 AM
5 votes:
The thing that gets me the most about the guys that complain about the "friend zone" is that they think women owe them something. Protip: if you think you deserve something for being a nice guy, you're not a nice guy.
2013-02-06 01:37:33 AM
5 votes:

astoreth: Yep. Imagine a gal who has all of your interests and is a blast to hang out with, but you have no attraction to her. Zero. Zip. But she's into you! Do you owe it to her to date her? Even though the thought of kissing her makes you kind of queasy? She's put so much time into the friendship!


Exactly. Being someone's friend does not entitle them to more, no matter how much they want it.
2013-02-06 12:53:47 AM
5 votes:

Seth'n'Spectrum: Some farker once said in a thread that the best way to get women to talk to you at a bar is to audibly mutter, "That dress with those shoes?" as they walk by.

/I have not tried this yet
//still working on the basic flirtation techniques


I would think you were 1) gay and an asshole or 2) negging me and thus a PUA asshole.
2013-02-06 02:22:57 PM
4 votes:

misterpriapus: Being in the friend zone means watching Pretty In Pink with her (since she's got the night off from banging her pickup artist), knowing that nothing more risque than a bucket of popcorn will happen while secretly wishing that Molly Ringwold had hooked up with Ducky at the end instead of that rich yuppie guy.  You feel that brother's pain.

It means that you put up with her using you because at the end of the day you still love her with all of your heart and you'd rather that she not have to deal with a broken toilet than risk losing her altogether.  Being in the friend zone means that you don't ever dare tell her how you feel because that would make her feel awkward and she'll very likely pull you out of that friend zone and put you straight into the creeper zone and you'll never see her again.



Yes, that's exactly what it means.  If you're both dishonest and deeply, profoundly misogynistic.

It's getting to the point where "friend zone" and "nice guy" are becoming codes for "I neither understand nor like women."
2013-02-06 04:21:02 AM
4 votes:

untaken_name: astoreth: Yep. Imagine a gal who has all of your interests and is a blast to hang out with, but you have no attraction to her. Zero. Zip.

Ok, so how do I ever find out that she has all of my interests and is a blast to hang out with, again?



By treating her like a human being instead of a potential lay.
2013-02-06 02:34:40 AM
4 votes:

AccuJack: If you think being seen as a "creeper" is bad, try being repeatedly friend zoned shortly after "hello".

Rejection is bad, being perceived as ruining a potential great friendship by wanting to actually *date* when that's what you had in mind from the start is really, really hard.

Seriously, I'm going to start acting like more of an asshole if it'll at least keep me from looking like someone who'd be a "really good friend".


Well there's your problem.  Quit acting like it is a competition or unlocking an achievement,  If you are talking to women just to get your rocks off, it will be nothing but frustration.  Approach interactions with women as trying to form friendships just like you would with men.  There is nothing stopping you from wanting to fark them, but you just need to accept that most are not going to fark you.  And don't treat the friendships as dependent on the farking.  You will increase your friends, get a much better sense of what women want, and eventually one or more will fark you.  Focus on the human interactions, and the farking will come (so to speak).  I have many more female friends as male ones, I have one that farks me in a legally-recognized union, and while I made several of those friendships hoping for non-legally-recognized-union-farking (all before the LRUF), I really don't care about that anymore when dealing with them (though this does not mean I do not leer ^_^ ).

Oh, and God's sake realize that asking her about her interests is the price you pay for telling her about your Grey Knight Terminators.  Oh, and if she talks about Grey Knight Terminators, too, find another set of topics to discuss, because if you obsess over a common geekoid interest, somebody is going to end up in a woodchipper, and it is 50/50 that it will be you.
2013-02-06 02:22:56 AM
4 votes:

Tommy Moo: browntimmy: Guy they like being bold = sexy.
Guy they don't like being bold = creepy weirdo.
But no guy knows which one he is until after making the first move. (granted some guys are just plain creepy weirdos, but even then there's someone out there for almost everyone)

When you look at the fact that most guys won't be offended or creeped out by women flirting with them (unless they're just uncommonly disgusting), it would make the most sense and make everything easier for women to initiate things. But we all know that won't ever happen and the world making sense is way too much to ask.

Ok, here's a tip: Initiate the conversation, but don't initiate the "move" until she is giving you signals of attraction. Just talk neutrally about the environment or something she's holding or whatever. Then start talking about her and yourself. Find an excuse to bring up a few interesting things about yourself that convey that you have friends, interesting hobbies, ex-girlfriends (TRUST ME ON THIS! It's like an automatic "Ok. He's safe. Another woman dated him." switch.) Then look for the following: Is she facing you with her entire body instead of over her shoulder? If you drop the conversation, does she restart it? Does she touch any part of her face or hair more than once while listening to you? Does she tip her head forward while listening? Does she smile when you say something that isn't funny?

You get adept at it with experience. Since you haven't hit on her yet, you haven't risked anything. You can back away without being called a creeper.

Hey, Farkers, did you think this was good advice? If so, you just agreed with one of the "douchebag pickup artists" you all love to hate. See? It isn't all evil mind hacking. The vast majority of it is all about making her feel comfortable with the stance that she will be more attracted to you if you aren't desperately trying to invade her space with your own pathetic needs. There's way too much emphasis on "negging." The community mo ...


It's also hilarious that women complain about men trying to learn better techniques to meet women, when women's magazines are full of articles that are not only about how to get men, but how to coldly manipulate them to get what you want.
2013-02-06 02:18:28 AM
4 votes:

BarkingUnicorn: Genevieve Marie: AccuJack: If you think being seen as a "creeper" is bad, try being repeatedly friend zoned shortly after "hello".

Rejection is bad, being perceived as ruining a potential great friendship by wanting to actually *date* when that's what you had in mind from the start is really, really hard.

Seriously, I'm going to start acting like more of an asshole if it'll at least keep me from looking like someone who'd be a "really good friend".

The friend zone is not a thing. If you end up there, it's because the object of your affection thinks you are a nice person and enjoys your company but does not envision the two of you getting naked together.

The "friend zone" is for men a woman doesn't want to fark but who have other skills she thinks might come in handy someday.


And men who complain about being friend-zoned often have no interest in an actual friendship and just want to sleep with the woman.
2013-02-06 01:36:02 AM
4 votes:

Genevieve Marie: AccuJack: If you think being seen as a "creeper" is bad, try being repeatedly friend zoned shortly after "hello".

Rejection is bad, being perceived as ruining a potential great friendship by wanting to actually *date* when that's what you had in mind from the start is really, really hard.

Seriously, I'm going to start acting like more of an asshole if it'll at least keep me from looking like someone who'd be a "really good friend".

The friend zone is not a thing. If you end up there, it's because the object of your affection thinks you are a nice person and enjoys your company but does not envision the two of you getting naked together. That's not the end of the world. At some point, you will find someone that DOES think it would be fun to get naked with you.


Yep. Imagine a gal who has all of your interests and is a blast to hang out with, but you have no attraction to her. Zero. Zip. But she's into you! Do you owe it to her to date her? Even though the thought of kissing her makes you kind of queasy? She's put so much time into the friendship!
2013-02-06 01:27:09 AM
4 votes:

Genevieve Marie: nelsonal: Which would be fine if creepy behavior was something besides flirting while being unattractive.

False.


It's not the ONLY thing that's creepy behavior, but it *is* "creepy behavior."

I mean it's not like men are all poor, much-maligned victims of stupid jerk women, it's that for every instance of men being assholes is an instance of women being the same thing.

I mean hell, if being a persistent pushy jackass refusing to take no for an answer didn't WORK, then the boys doing it wouldn't end up planting so many boorish little babies every generation to grow up and repeat the cycle.  Women reward bad behavior with sex a lot more than they like to admit.  I'm sure YOU (whoever is reading this) don't, (maybe, denial is always "in" among the human race) but if we're talking about men as a demographic it's only fair we talk about women as a demographic.
2013-02-06 12:53:35 AM
4 votes:
I'd think that "be polite and don't invade people's space" would be complete no-brainer advice.  Then I remember there's a thread just below where people don't understand that dog shiat on the porch isn't a stand your ground situation.
2013-02-06 02:35:36 PM
3 votes:

Smackledorfer: I don't think I've ever seen men claim they treat beautiful and ugly women the same in relationships and potential relationships.  Almost 500 comments in the thread, and while I didn't read them all, has anyone made this claim?

What I see men doing in this thread is trying to point out that women are just as bad about things as they are.  That, when coupled with the standard that more often than not men are the ones who approach the women first (and are expected to do so) leaves a double standard.  It results in men who act exactly the same as the attractive men but are not found to be physically attractive get the creeper vibe. These men aren't allowed to hit on coworkers, waitresses, bartenders, salesgirls, etc etc because if they proceed with an unwanted advance it is creepy and they are horrible people for giving things a shot - at least according to many of the women in this thread and plenty of the stupid feminist internet articles.  I don't think it is fair to guys with mediocre looks that they already have a strike against them and are then asked to make less attempts on top of that, all to keep some apparently fragile women from being annoyed. One would think that the feminist women would be against that double standard too, but all too often they want it both ways.

That said, obviously there are numerous double standards between the sexes, so don't read this post as me trying to say women have it easy and woe is men. This is just my opinion on this one issue.


Of course they don't claim it. They just do it. Most people are not terribly honest about their interpersonal relationships gone wrong. They tell the parts that make the other person look like an asshole and leave out the parts that make THEM look like an asshole. I know both genders do this.

As for the striking out part, I can't see every one of these interactions. So we're obviously being asked to take at face value everybody's assessment of it (the men saying, "No, I'm not a creep!" and the women saying, "OMG, what a creep!"). No doubt many of those people on both sides are assessing it inaccurately ie, many of the men did indeed give off a creep vibe, and many of those who didn't were still perceived as creeps by women who think all unattractive men who hit on them are creepy.

The linked article is not terrible. It makes a lot of sense. I think the plane advice is a little harsh. Many people meet on planes.

I think what many women object to is the asshole who just won't take "No, thanks" as an answer. I'm not sure what's so unreasonable about this. If you make a tentative overture and it is not reciprocated, that's it. Not reciprocating is pretty much the international sign for: "Thanks for the compliment of hitting on me, but no thanks." Women are adults. They don't have to explain why they don't want to carry on a conversation/go out with you/have sex with you. Strangers you find attractive don't really owe you anything other than a modicum of civility in your interaction with them. They are not required to give you a fair shot at them. And if you've encountered women who respond assholishly to overtures, well, that's unfortunate, but you should probably keep in mind that many women have learned through unpleasant experience that often, anything less than "Leave me the fark alone" is interpreted by some men as "code" for "She's just playing hard to get, I should try harder, because chicks dig a guy with confidence."

And if you find the double standard in this regard unfair, maybe you should contemplate the double standard women deal with regarding sexual activity. Men who fark a lot of different people are studs. Women who fark a lot of different people are skanks, whores, sluts. That's not very fair, either. But I don't see all that many men here at Fark condemning it. And they sure don't mind benefiting from it. So it is difficult to feel a great deal of sympathy for men who want to benefit from a double standard that works in their favor but complain when another one doesn't.

I can't do anything about women who reward good-looking assholes with copious sex. I can think they're stupid, but that's all I can do.
2013-02-06 01:37:18 PM
3 votes:

browntimmy: Yep, I'm assuming most guys all got this except for Theaetetus. But hopefully after 2 dozen posts this one explains it well enough that he doesn't have to derail the thread anymore.


FirstNationalBastard: honesty is creepy now.


You two are being willfully ignorant of the fact that he wasn't honest. He thought she wasn't interesting to talk to even platonic yet wanted to be in a relationship. I didn't fall off the turnip truck yesterday, and anyone with an ounce of intelligence will recognize someone that BORES you isn't good for any kind of relationship unless all you are interested in is farking. And if that's what you wanted in the first place, don't go through the motions of making it like you want a relationship with them.
2013-02-06 12:24:58 PM
3 votes:

yapopo: gulogulo: yapopo: never listen to a woman's advice on women. seriously. they are the worst.

Right. Because only men know what I want. Please tell me again what I want, I'm just too feeble minded to figure it out for myself.

say what you want, miss sarcasmo.  i'm going by a lifetime of experience.


Sorry you had such crappy life experiences. You might fail to realize it's only your experience, not universal (which perhaps means the problem is you).
2013-02-06 12:24:12 PM
3 votes:
Guys, once you have a good grasp of basic social etiquette, including reading the cues and knowing when to back off, then banish the word "creeper" from your mind.

This word is just over-used and misapplied so much.  Frankly, it tends to be the only tool in a woman's toolbox for ending and/or writing off any social situation in which she was not completely satisfied by the outcome, regardless of whether that had anything to do with your behavior.

I'll never forget when I was in college, I asked a woman out, and she said "we should just be friends."  Now, I could have said "Ok", and dealt with that as it came, but I owned a van at the time, and so like clockwork, that kind of "friend" always seemed to call up around the end of spring semester, asking if I would help her move.  On top of that, I just didn't find her terribly interesting to talk to on a platonic level.

So, I decided to be honest and soften it to "I appreciate that, but I have not had good luck being friends with women I'm attracted to."  She looked a little taken aback, but she hugged me and we went on our separate ways.  A couple days later this story gets back to me from a friend of a friend with the addendum, "she thought that was totally creepy."

The fact is what I said and did was honest and polite, she didn't get what she wanted out of the situation, and calling me "creepy" was the only way she knew of to blame me for her hard feelings over the situation.  I saw her a couple of times after that, I was cordial as I didn't feel I had anything to be ashamed of, but she was always really awkward and you could tell she was embarrassed every time we saw each other.
2013-02-06 12:21:53 PM
3 votes:

gulogulo: yapopo: never listen to a woman's advice on women. seriously. they are the worst.

Right. Because only men know what I want. Please tell me again what I want, I'm just too feeble minded to figure it out for myself.


You want an argument.
2013-02-06 11:59:55 AM
3 votes:

BMFPitt: When I was a hopeless single guy, I always hated when people said, "Be confident" as if it were some kind of useful advice.

That's kind of like a track coach saying, "Run faster."


I'll expand this a bit for those in your similar situation...

Be confident means...

1. Be confident in your wardrobe. Take a look at yourself in the mirror with your usual wardrobe on. Do you think girls like the way you dress? Do you think you personally dress well? Do you think you have too faded of clothes, or holes in your jeans. Are you happy with the way you dress? If not, do something about it until you are.
2. Be confident with your body. Drop down to your underwear and look at yourself in the mirror again. If you were a girl, would you want to have sex with you? If the answer is no, do something about it. Either start working out, or develop a better personality so she won't care as much about your looks.
3. Be confident with your mind. Think you are too stupid? You are... do something about it. Think girls are running away because you use too many big words, or talk incessentially about comic books and Star Wars? Do something about it. Now the trolls who can't find girls will say, "but I want to be myself". Well, that's why you are still single. Would you date a girl that constantly talked about My Little Pony, or had a room full of stuffed animals when she's older than 30? I'm not advocating changing who you are, but changing the presentation of who you are. -She can find out you are a closet nerd after she falls in Love with you. -You'll probably find out she's got some things she didn't want everyone knowing about as well.
4. Be confident with everything else. I can't cover all of the topics here, but between dress, fitness, and having something interesting to say without coming across as creepy/nerdy/whatever, there's not much more. If you have family issues you aren't happy with, do something about it... If you hate your job...  If you can't dance... Do something about it...

No girl wants a guy who whines about his problems and does nothing to fix them. That's what being confident is all about... being happy with who you are, and if you aren't, doing something about it rather than whining.
2013-02-06 10:47:36 AM
3 votes:
taurusowner:There have been a number of women in this thread who say "don't do ___" or "don't hit on people in retail/bartenders/etc". But the FACT is that if the guy was hot/rich/tall/buff enough, every single on of those women would break these rules. Females bartenders DO give out their real numbers to guys.....hot guys. Same with strippers, waitresses, that cute chick at Kohls, whatever. But no guy will know if he's the one she'll break the "rule" for until he tries.

Protip:  When you introduce an opinion as " the FACT is that " that's a pretty big warning sign.  Not of being a creeper, but of someone whose comment the rest of us should probably ignore as this is someone who is here to rant, rather than discuss.

Also "every single on of those women."  Another sign you're not here to listen to anyone else's opinion.
2013-02-06 10:36:48 AM
3 votes:

fredklein: No two situations are EXACTLY alike. Therefore, a solution that works for one situation would never work, and should never, ever be attempted in a different, but similar situation. Got it.


More like "No two people are EXACTLY alike. Therefore, a solution that works for one person might not work for another person, and should not be attempted until you know why it worked for that person and can be confident it will work for you."

"Don't be creepy" is probably the only universal rule when it comes to dealing with women. The basics are pretty, well, basic.

1) Never, ever, ever continue to pursue someone who has stated that she's not interested. A brief mistake here can follow you for years.
2) Do not take steps to look menacing (difficulty: using sexual humor with a stranger counts as menacing). But also do not go out of your way to not look menacing; that's even creepier.
3) Leave your obsessions at home. If you cannot do this, then express many obsessions at once: no fewer than four. If you cannot do this, you need more obsessions.
4) Do something with your hair. What matters here is just not ignoring your hair; exactly what you do with it doesn't matter so much, as long as you're clearly paying some attention to it.
5) Shower before going to meet people. If you cannot do this, then at least change your clothes. This is about smell, not sight, so change all your clothes, even things you don't expect people to see.
6) Get some women into your social circle: people who happen to be female, but in whom you are not interested romantically. Aside from having more friends -you can never have too many friends, especially local ones- this will help you get more comfortable dealing with women in general.
2013-02-06 08:11:44 AM
3 votes:

Tat'dGreaser: CtrlAltDestroy: Eh, flirting is something I don't have a grasp on. I'm the type who is surprisingly smart, almost too much for my own good, and skilled with many things which require critical thinking. I'm also pretty good with figuring people out, until it comes to the subject of attraction. I don't know how to flirt. It's not a natural thing for me. there has been once, maybe twice, in my life where someone started to do it with me but I didn't realize it until hours later.

You don't need to FLIRT FLIRT, just do what you say you can do and talk to them. See I can be the most charming man ever but I don't ever go up to a woman in public and hit on her. It's just something I was never comfortable doing but I've "done well" in my life by just being good at conversation. Oh and being a hot piece of man meat but let's not toot my horn here. Toot toot.


Speaking as a smart girl, I don't like to be hit on. I REALLY love having conversations about mutual interests and compelling topics. It's usually when I'm having one of those conversations that I suddenly find myself immensely attracted to a person.
2013-02-06 07:46:42 AM
3 votes:
I do love the way that threads like this devolve into 2 camps:
Those to whom this is all obvious,
Those whose posts could be paraphrased as "I'm a creepy guy, but I still believe it is all the fault of every single woman I have ever met"
2013-02-06 06:57:40 AM
3 votes:

Tommy Moo: Explain the 50 Shades of Grey phenomenon then. I stand behind my assessment. Anyway, life is constantly proving me right. Think what you will.


I'd wager that most women entertained and titilated by reading 50 Shades of Grey aren't actually looking to become some controlling jerks' love slaves any more than most guys watching video porn are actually contemplating becoming pizza deliverymen. There's a giant farking difference between enjoying a porn fantasy and wanting that as a reality.
2013-02-06 06:18:25 AM
3 votes:
My biggest problem right now with women is just finding someone that I like. Once you get past any self esteem or validation issues women represent to you then you quickly realize most women that reject you are no better suited for you than you are for them.

The problem with most guys failing with women is they try and hit on girls they have nothing in common with. If you're a nerdy guy with nerdy interests then chances are that girl decked out in designer clothing wants nothing to do with you and even if you convince her to date you she'd annoy the fark out of you.
2013-02-06 04:39:31 AM
3 votes:
The more I think about it, the more I think "pick up" is entirely the wrong approach for an interesting or even, dare I say, long term relationship.  I know that's not the point of picking someone up, but hear me out.  You want to get to know someone.  You have to approach it differently per individual and by your own wants.  If you want a long term relationship, friendship is the way to start, I think at least.  If you're just trying to pick up a random stranger, you don't know that they're not seeking a long term relationship - if they are, the "pick up" stuff will just come off as creepy.  If they're not, they probably would get it on with much less effort on your part.

The catch is, you don't know this about a person until you actually try it.  So, why not drop all of the con artistry and quit bemoaning the friend zone, and just get to know people before you make up your mind about trying to hop onto / into their organs?
2013-02-06 03:45:37 AM
3 votes:

Tommy Moo: I sound fat: I am always a bit wary of a woman giving guys advice about what works to pick them up. Guys tend to know what works better than women do. What women dont get is that if you reject a man, he doesent CARE if you think he is creepy. Most (not all) women would lay down rules for guys that would be in stark contrast to the way they were approached by the love of their life. "dont approach if she is looking at her phone." Seriously? I fall in love at first sight with a girl and I am supposed to not at least acknowledge her existance? If you offend them or scare them, sure, get the hell away, but ... you never know unless you approach them.

The guy upthread had it right. These articles aren't written with the goal of coaching the author's future boyfriends into how to approach and win her over. They are written because the author and her friends are constantly approached by an endless barrage of boring beta males, the kind of guys who read farking Jezebel articles are are likely to be swayed and discouraged from ever approaching them again. They want to get the losers out of the way so their attention is cleared up for the alpha males who don't give a fark what anyone thinks about how and when they should approach because they are going to do it whenever they damn well feel like it.


Yea, this is a PUA take on this and it's wholly innaccurate. This piece was written by a woman who's tired of being made to feel uncomfortable all the time. It was helpful hints for how not to make a woman feel threatened or like she has to be on her guard.

If you're not someone who enjoys making women feel uncomfortable, these are good tips. If you are, a good therapist might be in order.
2013-02-06 03:05:25 AM
3 votes:

miss diminutive: browntimmy: That is good advice. But on the flip side, how about making the mating signal something a little more overt than "playing with hair" or "facing him with her whole body". Recently there was a girl I really liked who was naturally a very friendly and outgoing person to everyone, so the mental games of "Was that playful shove flirting or friendly? etc." drove me nuts.

Chances are she knows it drives men nuts and loves that fact.


It's really fun when every woman gets classified as a frigid biotch, a pricktease, or a slut.  It would be nice if you would allow for more options.
2013-02-06 02:54:57 AM
3 votes:

Tommy Moo: On the off chance that she brings it up, just say something flippant like "I wanted to see if your hands were cold," and then change the subject.


That, my friend, is extremely creepy.
2013-02-06 02:53:21 AM
3 votes:

Yogimus: Throw jizz in her face and yell: "I CAN SMELL YOUR CUNNNT!"


You know what you look like to me, with your clever quote and your cheap profile? You look like a liter. A well scrubbed, hustling liter with a little taste. Good education's given you some length of post, but you're not more than one generation from poor AOL trash, are you, Yogimus? And that accent you've tried so desperately to shed: pure Silicon Valley. What is your father, dear? Is he a LAN admin? Does he stink of exhaust fan? You know how quickly the boys found you... all that tedious sticky cybering in yahoo chatrooms... while you could only dream of getting out... getting anywhere... getting all the way to F.A.R.K.
2013-02-06 02:42:10 AM
3 votes:

browntimmy: That is good advice. But on the flip side, how about making the mating signal something a little more overt than "playing with hair" or "facing him with her whole body". Recently there was a girl I really liked who was naturally a very friendly and outgoing person to everyone, so the mental games of "Was that playful shove flirting or friendly? etc." drove me nuts.


Chances are she knows it drives men nuts and loves that fact.
2013-02-06 02:17:37 AM
3 votes:

nelsonal: Which would be fine if creepy behavior was something besides flirting while being unattractive.


Came for the defensive men trying to blame it all on women.

Fark, you never fail to come through.
2013-02-06 02:11:02 AM
3 votes:

TheBigJerk: So you told him "no" once, ONCE, and you were already creeped out. He checked one more time after the rejection, you told him no again and he threw a childish tantrum but then left you alone. Yes?


No, I told him no twice before I was creeped out. And bear in mind, he didn't ask me for my number- he got it through asking other people for it and he called me out of the blue. And this was someone I hadn't paid any more than polite hostess attention to in the first place.
2013-02-06 01:50:08 AM
3 votes:
I like how the writer keeps going on about "respect" while talking to men in a disrespectful way. The good old double standard.
2013-02-06 01:46:43 AM
3 votes:

Fano: Ooh. That's probably even MORE sinister. Being told NO is a pretty strong indicator. Creepy friendzone guys work their asses off to avoid a no in the first place, so if they can't take the hint then... they move on to creepy stalker guy. There may be farkers that can tell tales of girlfriends that initially said hell no, no way, then they ended up together. Heck actually, I can think of a married couple I knew from college that was a Chasing Amy situation, except it was more the girl wasn't dating ANYONE, but was judged to be a lesbian for various reasons, and her future husband pined for her ENDLESSLY. But she never told him NO.


So a few years ago, my roommate and I decided  to have a Christmas party. Super low key, maybe 20 of our friends, I cooked, it was nice. A friend of ours asked if he could bring his brother and his brother's buddies for the night, and we said sure, the more the merrier. I thought they were all nice people, and I was a good hostess and hung out with them, and didn't think more of it. In passing, I'd mentioned to one of them that my office was near his.

So maybe two days later, I'm at work and I get a call. It's the dude- he got my number through my friend and wanted me to have lunch. I told him I was busy and couldn't do it. So he calls again the next day- offers to take me out for a nice dinner.  At this point I'm starting to get a little uncomfortable, but not overly so. I tell him again that I'm really busy at work, that I can't go to dinner and gave a general non-committal response to hanging out with him and a group of people at a bar some time.

So the next week, HE SHOWS UP AT MY OFFICE. Just shows up, walks right up to my desk with a book, and said "Hey I thought you might like to read this and maybe now would be a good time to get coffee?" At the time, I was working for a hellacious boss, plus I was also just beginning a relationship with one of my co-workers, who I'm with to this day.

I very firmly told him that I wasn't interested and to please leave.

He called again the next week, and offered me a ticket to the Saints final playoff game during the superbowl year. Now, those tickets were like gold dust at that time. Everyone wanted to go. And I knew damn well what this was- he thought he was offering me something so rare and special that I'd accept his company just to get the ticket, and then I'd owe him another date. Not being a total idiot, I turned him down firmly.

He got nasty. Like he genuinely couldn't believe I'd turn down playoffs tickets and he insinuated any other girl would be lucky to go.

The whole thing was just really, really off putting and weird.
2013-02-06 01:38:58 AM
3 votes:
Just do like me and freeze in silent, nervous loserdom, then drink heavily and masturbate.
2013-02-06 01:38:40 AM
3 votes:
Guy they like being bold = sexy.
Guy they don't like being bold = creepy weirdo.
But no guy knows which one he is until after making the first move. (granted some guys are just plain creepy weirdos, but even then there's someone out there for almost everyone)

When you look at the fact that most guys won't be offended or creeped out by women flirting with them (unless they're just uncommonly disgusting), it would make the most sense and make everything easier for women to initiate things. But we all know that won't ever happen and the world making sense is way too much to ask.
2013-02-06 01:26:51 AM
3 votes:

Duck_of_Doom: nelsonal: Which would be fine if creepy behavior was something besides flirting while being unattractive.

What you describe is the female equivalent reaction of a ham-faced she-beast coming on to you.

You don't want uggos flirting with you, and you probably think them creepy as well.

/ham-faced uggo


Exactly, and surprised to see Genevieve_Marie declare it as false out of hand. If you are completely unattracted to a person, you are already negative enough that you would ascribe terrible motives to them.
2013-02-06 01:11:35 AM
3 votes:
doubletaxation.files.wordpress.com

1. Be attractive
2. Don't be unattractive
2013-02-06 01:00:11 AM
3 votes:
Pick-up Artist.

imgs.xkcd.com
2013-02-06 12:56:25 AM
3 votes:
I had a friend whose entire game was keeping copies of his ATM receipts on him from right after his paycheck was deposited. He'd then meet girls at bars and give them his number with the line "this is really tacky, but it's the only piece of paper I have".

/he had a 75% success rate
//and a 6 figure income
2013-02-07 09:53:19 AM
2 votes:

yapopo: don't worry about being thought of as creepy.  it doesn't mean anything about you as a person.  that's just what women say when they're approached by someone they're not interested in.


This is where you're dead wrong. It's what women say when they continue to be approached by someone they've said they're not interested in, and it does say a lot about you as a person, none of it good.

who gives a crap if she thinks you're "creepy" lol.

The people she talks to do. That's what makes it worth taking seriously when someone calls you creepy: it has a ripple effect. You ruin your chances not only with her, but with the people she knows, and depending on just how creepy you are, that can even go out by another degree. It should go without saying that you don't want that to happen, but the only way to prevent it is by not being creepy.
2013-02-06 06:26:00 PM
2 votes:
This thread reminds me of all the times (many of them here on Fark!) white people tell black people there is no racism anymore and any opinion to the contrary is a figment of the black peoples' imagination or obvious lies.

Thank goodness the manly men are here to explain to all of us stupid biatches what we really say and do.
2013-02-06 03:31:51 PM
2 votes:

Smackledorfer: Sure, but I wouldn't be insulted and pissy about it if a woman I didn't want was hitting on me.  As you say she would have to do a better job to land me (well, not me, I've got pretty low standards :P ) but I would never feel upset at her for making an attempt.


If she started calling you at work, you might. If she showed up at your house, you definitely would. And if women murdered men in anywhere near the numbers that men murder women, you would feel threatened.

Why do men not understand this? Why do you not understand that almost all men (under the age of, say, 70) are inherently threatening (in that they could potentially pose a physical threat) to all women, regardless of age. No need to take it personally. It's just that many (most?) women don't feel like they can afford to give someone the benefit of the doubt. If they feel a creepy vibe (whether that is what's actually happening or not) the default response to this is "Get away as soon as possible and avoid in the future."

I'm sure many dudes have been on the receiving end of this and feel they were unjustly accused. Sorry. But if you want to blame somebody for that, you should probably start with the sex offenders who make this default position necessary (for those women trying to avoid legitimate rape).
2013-02-06 02:56:14 PM
2 votes:

udhq: That doesn't mean a woman is to blame for not wanting a romantic relationship, and conversely a man shouldn't be blamed for not wanting a platonic relationship.



Nor should he wig out and start thinking "that biatch only wanted to use me for my sweet van".  To me, that's kind of a sad, paranoid way of looking at life.

For a long time now, I've had a little pickup truck. I've helped tons of people move - and I've never felt like I was being "used" by anyone. And I've only said no once - to a dude I was working with that biatched and moaned about saving the environment and people driving cars until he needed me to haul a couch to his place. Fark that guy.

 Friends help friends move. Sometimes you help someone you barely know move. You meet people, you have an experience. I never felt used. But then I'm not out looking to pork everyone that moves. Lighten up, take the long view, start seeing women as people and you'll get a lot more out of life.

/pork moves
2013-02-06 02:41:42 PM
2 votes:

misterpriapus: It means that you put up with her using you because at the end of the day you still love her with all of your heart and you'd rather that she not have to deal with a broken toilet than risk losing her altogether. Being in the friend zone means that you don't ever dare tell her how you feel because that would make her feel awkward and she'll very likely pull you out of that friend zone and put you straight into the creeper zone and you'll never see her again.


Your complete unwillingness to pursue a woman "you love with all your heart" is probably the main reason she disqualified you as a potential partner in the first place. She is treating you like a neuter because that's how you are acting.

The bad news is this one is completely farked. Even if you somehow worm your way into her next rebound, your unrelenting neediness and "whole heart love" will be absolute kryptonite to her lady boner. You might as well give her a that big ball of her hair you've been picking off her couch cushions.

The good news is that you probably don't love her. You're just obsessed with her. She isn't the quirky, perfect angel who is going to save you. She is just another insecure human with all the annoying tendencies and selfishness that we all have. Also, she seems to have a terrible time picking men, so there is likely some abandonment issues or other traumas to work through. She'll cheat on you when your relationship doesn't provide the dysfunction that is hardwired into her brain as "normal."

So move on, pursue your next interest honestly, and try not to make the same mistakes.
2013-02-06 02:15:32 PM
2 votes:

Millennium: This is why I say you should never continue to pursue someone who has said she's not interested.


This I agree with.  I think "creep" is massively overused in this thread, but when you strike out, it is time to leave the plate.
2013-02-06 02:07:10 PM
2 votes:

ciberido: Yeah, ok. You know, just going on what you typed, it could be that calling you "creepy" was the only way she knew of to blame your for her hard feelings over the situation, or it just could be that you already had some issues with women before she even laid eyes on you, which she detected through that "honest and polite" smokescreen.

But I'm sure it was the first one and she's totally to blame for everything.


No one's "to blame for everything".  I asked a girl out, and she wasn't interested.  It's happened 10 times this week to every guy in this thread.  There's no reason for either party to treat the simple interaction as a traumatic breech of decorum or personal safety.

My point is just that "creepy" is simply the female version of "biatch", it's a gender-loaded pejorative that people of a certain quality throw out there when they've got nothing else.
2013-02-06 01:56:58 PM
2 votes:

fredklein: And if Joe flirts a certain way with a woman and gets laid, then Bob should be able to flirt that way with a woman and get laid, too. Similar.


Why? Joe is not Bob. They are different people; they have different tools.

Let's flip it around. If I took a bunch of pictures of women and asked you to rank them from most to least attractive, you could certainly do that. At the top of this list would probably be some women who would only have to say hello to you and you'd already be fumbling for your zipper, and at the bottom might be some who would have a very hard time convincing you to date them (for some, it might even be impossible). I doubt this is controversial. If I were to take that same list and rank them, my ordering would probably differ at least a little from yours. Even if our lists agreed completely, I could certainly find men who would make different lists. I doubt that this is controversial either; you'd write it off as differing tastes between us.

Why, then, would it be controversial to flip the genders? Is it not possible that women might be attracted to some people, but not others, along similar lines? What makes this unfair?
2013-02-06 01:55:26 PM
2 votes:

udhq: I'll never forget when I was in college, I asked a woman out, and she said "we should just be friends."  Now, I could have said "Ok", and dealt with that as it came, but I owned a van at the time, and so like clockwork, that kind of "friend" always seemed to call up around the end of spring semester, asking if I would help her move.  On top of that, I just didn't find her terribly interesting to talk to on a platonic level.

So, I decided to be honest and soften it to "I appreciate that, but I have not had good luck being friends with women I'm attracted to."  She looked a little taken aback, but she hugged me and we went on our separate ways.  A couple days later this story gets back to me from a friend of a friend with the addendum, "she thought that was totally creepy."

The fact is what I said and did was honest and polite, she didn't get what she wanted out of the situation, and calling me "creepy" was the only way she knew of to blame me for her hard feelings over the situation.  I saw her a couple of times after that, I was cordial as I didn't feel I had anything to be ashamed of, but she was always really awkward and you could tell she was embarrassed every time we saw each other.



Yeah, ok.  You know, just going on what you typed, it could be that calling you "creepy" was the only way she knew of to blame your for her hard feelings over the situation, or it just could be that you already had some issues with women before she even laid eyes on you, which she detected through that "honest and polite" smokescreen.

But I'm sure it was the first one and she's totally to blame for everything.
2013-02-06 01:12:05 PM
2 votes:

FirstNationalBastard: Theaetetus: It's a little creepy to ask someone that you don't talk to and don't find interesting for sex. And quite creepy to say, when they try to politely turn you down, that you don't have any interest in them other than sex.

Note that I didn't say "dishonest". But yes, creepy.

I'll just refer you to this post...

udhq: Theaetetus: ... Uh, huh. Let's reexamine this for a second:
I asked a woman out... I just didn't find her terribly interesting to talk to on a platonic level.
The fact is, you're creepy, and she picked up on that.

You do realize that there is a distinction between platonic relationships and romantic ones, right?  That they aren't the same?

I have dated dozens of women who I would never consider calling up just to talk or hang out.  Conversely, I have hundreds of people I would consider platonic friends that I would never consider dating.  They're two different kinds of relationships, and a person can, in fact, pique one kind of interest and not the other.

Not every relationship is created equal.


No, but it's creepy to get angry when someone isn't interested in a sex-only relationship. She dodged a bullet there, I think.
2013-02-06 01:11:25 PM
2 votes:
Seems like both in the article and in this thread that there's this baseline assumption that when a man talks to a woman for any length of time he's only interested in nailing her, preferably on the same day.  As blatantly sexist as that view may be, I find this virulent little concept has imbedded itself into Western culture.  It especially bothers me when intelligent or intellectual people make this assumption because they ought to know better but they've fallen into the trap of thinking they are too intellectual to be sexist.

This of course ties into rule no. 1.  If dude that looks like Brad Pitt starts chatting up a chick, it's assumed that he's trying to nail her but it's OK because he is sooooo cute.  He can pretty much say or do all kinds of fark up shiat because she wants to nail him too (double standard anyone?).  However if the dude is slightly less attractive, socially awkward, not metrosexual enough, etc., it's still assumed that he's trying to nail her, even if he just wants to chat her up about music or something.  And since no sensible girl would be interested in such a boorish subhuman then how dare he even speak to her since it's ~obvious~ that he wants nothing more than to tie her up, throw her into a van with no windows, and sell her into slavery.

The "thinking" seems to be conversation =  interest, interest = interest in casual sex, interest in casual sex = Ed Gein.

Understand I'm not talking about genuine creeps like the guys who send pee pee shots to every girl on OK Cupid, or guys that just start throwing random pickup lines at someone who's clearly not interested.  Ladies, I feel your pain and I think I speak for all the reasonable men in the world when I say you have our explicit blessing to kick these boys in the nuts.

Now I'm not a bad looking bloke and when I run my mouth I at least try to be entertaining and not just drone on about WoW or some tripe.  But I'm bigger and a little heavier than average (bigger than Jack Black but not as big as Chris Christie) and tend to wear Megadeth t-shirts as opposed to Armani suits.  I'll never be a pickup artist but I'm certainly not an uggo (I officially hate that word).  The way it was explained to me by a much wiser friend in the same predicament was this:  while we aren't bad looking or socially inept, we're the guy who's police sketch is seen on the news whenever a rapist or socialite-molester is on the loose.  Nothing we can say or do can change that.

Which brings me to the part that really grinds my gears:

We're not being paranoid or defensive when we don't want to talk to you. We're remembering the time just yesterday when someone literally rubbed their naked dick on us.

So, not only are we up against the sexist assumption that just because we like you and want to talk to you, that we only want instant, borderline non-consensual sex.  Not only do we have to deal with your spurious logic that sexual interest equals sexual predation based on the fact that we're not all Brad Pitt.  But we have do deal with that nonsense because of what some other schlub that we don't even know did to you when we weren't even there.  Yes, you are being paranoid and defensive.  I'm sorry that this happened to you, just the idea makes my skin crawl, but don't blame someone else for that shiat just because he wants to chat you up.

It's a simple equation...the guy that rubbed his dick on you is wrong.  The guy that wants to chat you up and ask you out is doing it right, even if he's not very good at it. You don't have to chat him up but don't criminalize him for his interest when he didn't do anything wrong.  It's called "innocent until proven guilty" and if you respond that way often enough then the good guys, the guys you really want to date, are going to get the message and stay away.  What you are left with is the creepers which you still have to fend off, followed by the con pickup artists who know how to manipulate you until you are left heartbroken and wondering why you always have such bad taste in men.
2013-02-06 01:11:03 PM
2 votes:

Magnanimous_J: Taught me a valuable lesson about being friends with women I wanted to date.


Is the lesson "actually be friends with them, rather than pretend to be their friend so you can nail them"?
2013-02-06 01:08:28 PM
2 votes:

FirstNationalBastard: Maybe the man hoped the date would end in sex. And what, exactly, is wrong with that?

Are you now going to tell me that precious, holy womynkind doesn't go for a good old fashioned booty call every now and then?


Sometimes. Sometimes they don't, where in advances like that come across as disingenuous and creepy. I can tell when I guy really isn't interested in getting to know me, no matter how hard he might be trying to pretend he does. It's that. If you are trying to put forward that you're interested in a relationship when you're only interested in sex, THAT is creepy and manipulative. If you are only interested in sex be pretty forthright about that.
2013-02-06 12:36:02 PM
2 votes:

udhq: I'll never forget when I was in college, I asked a woman out, and she said "we should just be friends."  Now, I could have said "Ok", and dealt with that as it came, but I owned a van at the time, and so like clockwork, that kind of "friend" always seemed to call up around the end of spring semester, asking if I would help her move.  On top of that, I just didn't find her terribly interesting to talk to on a platonic level.

So, I decided to be honest and soften it to "I appreciate that, but I have not had good luck being friends with women I'm attracted to."  She looked a little taken aback, but she hugged me and we went on our separate ways.  A couple days later this story gets back to me from a friend of a friend with the addendum, "she thought that was totally creepy."

The fact is what I said and did was honest and polite, she didn't get what she wanted out of the situation, and calling me "creepy" was the only way she knew of to blame me for her hard feelings over the situation.  I saw her a couple of times after that, I was cordial as I didn't feel I had anything to be ashamed of, but she was always really awkward and you could tell she was embarrassed every time we saw each other.


... Uh, huh. Let's reexamine this for a second:
I asked a woman out... I just didn't find her terribly interesting to talk to on a platonic level.
The fact is, you're creepy, and she picked up on that.
2013-02-06 12:35:13 PM
2 votes:

yapopo: never listen to a woman's advice on women.  seriously.  they are the worst.


I'm personally of the opinion that neither being male nor being female is any real barrier to being an "expert" on how women's minds work.  Or how men's minds work, for that matter.

I'm also fond of the idea that the differences between men and women are largely cultural (though there is some real debate on how much of it is nature and how much is nurture). Which means that, if you want to understand how and why women are different from men, a good approach is to look at it anthropologically.
2013-02-06 12:04:38 PM
2 votes:

yapopo: never listen to a woman's advice on women.  seriously.  they are the worst.




forward.com
Proud.
2013-02-06 11:57:41 AM
2 votes:

yapopo: never listen to a woman's advice on women. seriously. they are the worst.


Right. Because only men know what I want. Please tell me again what I want, I'm just too feeble minded to figure it out for myself.
2013-02-06 11:55:09 AM
2 votes:

plewis: This just in:  Women can be picky assholes.  Not good at public speaking or talking to strangers?  Creep.  Too respectful but still horny?  Creep.  Broke but otherwise charming?  Creep.  Trying too hard? Creep.  There is no relational fark up that a guy can commit that is not punishable by fire.



What a sad, self-defeating attitude. Some guys truly think that being turned down by a woman is the worst thing that can possibly happen. The only reason you were interested in them in the first place is their potential for dating. Now that you know they are not interested in you for that, why do you care if they think you're creepy or not? Why do you care what they think about anything?
2013-02-06 11:32:42 AM
2 votes:

plewis: This just in:  Women can be picky assholes.  Not good at public speaking or talking to strangers?  Creep.  Too respectful but still horny?  Creep.  Broke but otherwise charming?  Creep.  Trying too hard? Creep.  There is no relational fark up that a guy can commit that is not punishable by fire.  I'm SOOOOO  glad to be married and not have to deal with picky biatches any more.  (Now I just have to focus on the one)


The respect you show for your wife is awe inspiring.
2013-02-06 11:12:02 AM
2 votes:

CtrlAltDestroy: I've thought about it but I don't have anyone that I can ask. I thought, for a split second, about asking anonymous for a critique but then realized how dangerous that would be. I do want to take some new pictutes soon. But I can't, for the life of me, look good in a picture. My looks are already iffy and this inability to look decent in a photo doesn't help. I might try to overhaul the profiles this weekend.

/Holy hell Fark's new comment system is not phone friendly.


There's your problem.  It is hard to get a girlfriend without female friends, pretty much impossible without any friends at all.  It gives you practice talking to girls.  It makes you more attractive to unknown females because they see you talking to females.  It tells everyone you aren't a creeper.  Female friends increase attractiveness exponentially.  Hot female friends increase attractiveness exponentially cubed.

If you're a hermit, you can change that by joining activity clubs.  Kickball, bocce, any local sporting stuff with young adults.  Volunteering is also huge.  Volunteer at whatever local thing to meet people.  Get off fark and go out and start doing stuff in your spare time to meet people.  Start hanging out with them, girls and guys alike.

Your objective should be: "Find guys and girls to have fun with and be friends with"
By virtue of doing that, you'll eventually come across a girl that's attracted to you.
2013-02-06 10:59:51 AM
2 votes:
I think if you are going to be successful at approaching women you don't already know, it's important to have a really realistic appraisal of yourself. Every guy secretly believes that he deserves a beautiful woman solely by virtue of being the protagonist in his own life story. Realizing that the universe actually owes you nothing is one of the most liberating truths I have ever personally had to learn, but it's endlessly applicable to dating as well.

So be honest about your own level of attractiveness and if you get too ambitious, don't be so surprised when you get shot down. You wouldn't date a girl that was significantly less attractive than you normally get, so why should she? You're not farking special, is my point. If you really want to improve your romantic situation, work out more and wear nicer clothes. There are things you can do.
2013-02-06 09:53:29 AM
2 votes:

spyderqueen: And additional food for thought: If you start to wonder why all the girls you like only like jerks, it's possible you need to reevaluate what kind of women you are interested in.  Because, I'm not gonna lie, some women have appallingly shiatty taste in relationships, and some men have equally appalling taste.  It happens.


Exactly. Women who like jerks are probably somewhat emotionally vulnerable. "Nice guys" who complain about and always try to date women who like jerks are, at least subconsciously, looking for someone somewhat emotionally vulnerable, hence their whole strategy of overwhelming "niceness". Accordingly, it's a cycle doomed to repeat.
2013-02-06 09:46:39 AM
2 votes:

Serious Post on Serious Thread: Tag me, block me, break my little on-line heart.  gulogulo's post stated "in the end", sure, maybe she/he/it meant after the first sentence, but "in the end" implies to me a more substantial getting-to-know-you period. And that's the point. You don't even get that far if any approach is deemed 'creepy by virtue of unattractiveness'.



Nobody OWES you a chance to prove you're not a creep.  Oh hell, let me just quote the article.  "No one other than your therapist or attorney owes you a conversation."

That's the point you're not getting.  You think women OWE you a chance.  We don't.
2013-02-06 09:44:46 AM
2 votes:

gunther_bumpass: By treating her like a human being instead of a potential lay.


Best piece of advice I've read in this thread.

No, I'm not kidding.
2013-02-06 09:35:08 AM
2 votes:

Tommy Moo: Explain the 50 Shades of Grey phenomenon then. I stand behind my assessment. Anyway, life is constantly proving me right. Think what you will.


Roller coasters are perfectly safe, but they're designed to provide an illusion of danger (and depending on who you talk to, this illusion is very convincing indeed). This is a similar thing: it's fairly common to seek out an illusion of dominance (or submission, for that matter) without wanting to actually be dominated or force someone to submit.

50 Shades -really, romance novels in general, but 50 Shades is more extreme and more badly-written than most- provide that illusion by way of fantasy. I would argue that this isn't a particularly healthy way to go about getting those illusions, as they're rarely illusory for the characters in the books, but for the reader, it gets the job done. That's what keeps the publishers in business.
2013-02-06 09:17:56 AM
2 votes:

Tommy Moo: As for the "women like jerks" thing: I find that some women like nice guys and some girls like jerks and some girls like both. What all women like are strong guys. It's a quadrant. You can be mean and weak. Think of a sniveling, angry, bitter jerk who biatches on Facebook about how girls are stupid all the time. These guys never get laid. You can also be nice and weak, like the white knights who lavish girls with praise and complements and then jerk off on Saturday nights instead of taking a shot. It's the strength that women like, and sometimes weak nice guys mistake what girls want when they go for strong jerks. There are strong nice guys who do very well. Think of a club proprietor, the guy who goes around making sure everyone feels safe and everyone is having a good time.


This actually is really good advice.
2013-02-06 09:15:20 AM
2 votes:

spyderqueen: Coelacanth Filet: PUA is social nihilism, sure, but it works. Hate the game, not the player, etc.

No, if they think that game is a good idea, I'm in the clear for hating the player.

But yeah, friend-zoning and the "women don't like 'nice guys'" stuff is still bullshiat.  If a woman tells you she likes you as a friend you have two scenarios:
1) She doesn't really like you, but is a nervous about how you will react if she actually flat out says "No, I'm not interested." Possibly because you're behaving like someone who's going to take great offense at the idea she wouldn't want to date you.
2) She actually thinks you're a fun person to hang out with.  This should not be the end of the farking world; friends are awesome.  Friendship isn't a consolation prize. If you don't want that, then back the fark off.  Be her friend or DON'T; don't skulk around behind her like some demented remora looking for any fragment of attention.

If she doesn't see you as a romantic option and just sees you as a friend (which she is allowed to farking do); that's when it's time to take a second to reevaluate why you're friends with the girl.  And if you think you really are okay with being her friend? Respect the other party's decision, act like a decent farking human being, and don't think she OWES you something because you're nice to her.  And if you can't do that?  You're not a "nice guy"; you're the same kind of douchebag you're railing against, you just hide it better.


And additional food for thought: If you start to wonder why all the girls you like only like jerks, it's possible you need to reevaluate what kind of women you are interested in.  Because, I'm not gonna lie, some women have appallingly shiatty taste in relationships, and some men have equally appalling taste.  It happens.

And as far as the idea that women are being shallow and that being creepy is just "hitting on someone while being unattractive", don't think for a farking SECOND that men can't be guilty of the sam ...


You and many other people share a misunderstanding of PUA game. Any guy who throws a shiat fit if a girl doesn't immediately show attraction to him is doing it wrong and will be ostracized/corrected by the community. There are all kinds of rules taught by the masters regarding the following principles: If she's not into you, you didn't do enough to attract her. There's no such thing as a biatch. Learn from every person you meet. And most of us are happy to maintain friendships with women. If nothing else, a female friend makes the best wing. When I go out with a girl, any girl in the bar will talk to me because she can see that I'm safe.

As for the "women like jerks" thing: I find that some women like nice guys and some girls like jerks and some girls like both. What all women like are strong guys. It's a quadrant. You can be mean and weak. Think of a sniveling, angry, bitter jerk who biatches on Facebook about how girls are stupid all the time. These guys never get laid. You can also be nice and weak, like the white knights who lavish girls with praise and complements and then jerk off on Saturday nights instead of taking a shot. It's the strength that women like, and sometimes weak nice guys mistake what girls want when they go for strong jerks. There are strong nice guys who do very well. Think of a club proprietor, the guy who goes around making sure everyone feels safe and everyone is having a good time.
2013-02-06 08:53:10 AM
2 votes:
Creepy is usually only creepy if you don't wanna fark the other person. The same behavior from an attractive person would be cute or silly, usually. There is a line, but it's set waaay back for hotties.

Plus women are more choosy. So they're more likely to pull the trigger on the creepy gun. Men just say "Crazy broad, better wear a condom."
2013-02-06 08:37:56 AM
2 votes:
I wasn't aware asking a woman to go out to dinner or a movie was being a weirdo creeper. Good to know. Next time I'll just grab her tits.
2013-02-06 08:23:13 AM
2 votes:

Smackledorfer: browntimmy: Guy they like being bold = sexy.
Guy they don't like being bold = creepy weirdo.
But no guy knows which one he is until after making the first move. (granted some guys are just plain creepy weirdos, but even then there's someone out there for almost everyone)

When you look at the fact that most guys won't be offended or creeped out by women flirting with them (unless they're just uncommonly disgusting), it would make the most sense and make everything easier for women to initiate things. But we all know that won't ever happen and the world making sense is way too much to ask.

This. And while our feminist may disagree out of personal experience, I've got ten years of restaurant time sharing with waitresses to back that up. Office, restaurant, captive target, whatever; women respond well to physically attractive, and poorly to ugly. Denying that is lying.

I'm not judging, but the ladies need to be more honest about it.


'Being an ugly man' is infinitely different than 'being an ugly woman'.  Looks aren't that important in womens' minds, not to the degree that they are for men.  For a guy to be 'ugly' he needs to be significantly different from the norm: misshapen face, extremely bad teeth or skin, very fat or very thin.  Most mens' deficiencies in looks can be compensated for by attractive and well-tailored clothes, a good haircut, and excellent gooming.  Women, otoh, are judged extremely harshly,  In fact, the first thing a man does when he sees a woman is to start tabulating her numeric value, and if she's anything less than a 7 then she's immediately considered expendable if something better is in the immediate vicinity.  If she's anything less than a 6 then she's 'byproduct' to resort to in case of desperation, and if she's anything less than a 5 she's a subhuman who really should be killed with fire.
2013-02-06 08:22:10 AM
2 votes:

browntimmy: Guy they like being bold = sexy.
Guy they don't like being bold = creepy weirdo.
But no guy knows which one he is until after making the first move. (granted some guys are just plain creepy weirdos, but even then there's someone out there for almost everyone)

When you look at the fact that most guys won't be offended or creeped out by women flirting with them (unless they're just uncommonly disgusting), it would make the most sense and make everything easier for women to initiate things. But we all know that won't ever happen and the world making sense is way too much to ask.


Pretty much the most important thing that's been said in this thread. There have been a number of women in this thread who say "don't do ___" or "don't hit on people in retail/bartenders/etc". But the FACT is that if the guy was hot/rich/tall/buff enough, every single on of those women would break these rules. Females bartenders DO give out their real numbers to guys.....hot guys. Same with strippers, waitresses, that cute chick at Kohls, whatever. But no guy will know if he's the one she'll break the "rule" for until he tries.
2013-02-06 08:18:52 AM
2 votes:

Tat'dGreaser: gulogulo: Speaking as a smart girl, I don't like to be hit on. I REALLY love having conversations about mutual interests and compelling topics. It's usually when I'm having one of those conversations that I suddenly find myself immensely attracted to a person.

See, there you go. I'm not a pick up artist at all but I gave a good piece of advice that a woman agreed with. You don't need tricks and lines, just hold a conversation for crying out loud.


This for the truth, and not everyone is interested in you but hey you may get to meet and sleep with some interesting people along the way. And the interesting people aren't always the ones you sleep with but hey you get to meet them.
2013-02-06 08:13:08 AM
2 votes:

gulogulo: Speaking as a smart girl, I don't like to be hit on. I REALLY love having conversations about mutual interests and compelling topics. It's usually when I'm having one of those conversations that I suddenly find myself immensely attracted to a person.


See, there you go. I'm not a pick up artist at all but I gave a good piece of advice that a woman agreed with. You don't need tricks and lines, just hold a conversation for crying out loud.
2013-02-06 07:53:20 AM
2 votes:

jack21221: Maybe they thought I was being creepy or hitting on them. In reality, I just wanted to talk about science, which was what she just commented on on the television. I didn't think I was that out of line talking to somebody at a bar. I thought that's what people did at bars. I wasn't hitting on her at the least.


Or they had something they wanted to 'girl chat about' between themselves and didn't want to interrupt your conversation. It may have had nothing to do with you.
2013-02-06 07:16:25 AM
2 votes:

freeforever: Being a pickup artist is ALL ABOUT "stimulating the mind," regardless of what feminists would have you believe.


Just to clarify, stimulating my mind actually means you have to be pretty damn smart. If you're a charming lug, you're still a lug and I will get annoyed and bored.  That's not something learning the arts of body language can teach you.
2013-02-06 07:01:54 AM
2 votes:
I second the "don't be overtly flirtatious in a situation where they are a captive audience."  That goes for men AND women. I had a shuttle driver do that to me, in front of the other passengers. It went from me trying to be courteous since I was sitting in the front and striking up conversation to inappropriate offers of him to take me directly to my house (a service the shuttle doesn't offer).  It was a 2 hour drive and I was enormously unnerved by his aggressiveness.
2013-02-06 06:35:53 AM
2 votes:

Serious Post on Serious Thread: Let me re-write that in something approaching English:

The thrust of the article, is about INITIAL IMPRESSIONS that project a sense of 'creepiness'. The criticism of the article is that if one finds a person unattractive then you are never going to find out if they are 'creepy' or 'swell', you will auto-reject them as creepy. Your lazy comments communicate the obvious and unargued point, which is not made byanyone including the article, that once you get to know someone, attractive or not, you may or may not find them creepy.

/Farking jezebel, makes me talk no good mad so much at stupid


How initial are we talking? I'm talking about the first words that come out of the guys mouth.  And yes, people ARE making that argument in this thread that the only thing that makes someone a creeper is being unattractive.  It has been actually said on occasion in this very thread that "good looking guys can get away with anything." So, did you just not read this thread?
2013-02-06 06:17:41 AM
2 votes:

gulogulo: HotWingAgenda: That article can be boiled down to:

1.  Be handsome
2.  Be attractive
3.  Don't be unattractive

This is really lazy logic. Sure, for some people their looks are going to make them more likely to be labeled a creeper. It may be shocking, though, that your behavior too, no matter how you look, can also make you a creeper. I've been hit on by many guys who on first glance I was attracted to but in the end had me back pedaling so quick and looking for a way out.


This. Being attractive may help with initial attraction from across the room, but once you open your mouth and start with the creepaderp, no amount of good looks will stop them from running for the hills.
2013-02-06 06:04:44 AM
2 votes:

HotWingAgenda: That article can be boiled down to:

1.  Be handsome
2.  Be attractive
3.  Don't be unattractive


This is really lazy logic. Sure, for some people their looks are going to make them more likely to be labeled a creeper. It may be shocking, though, that your behavior too, no matter how you look, can also make you a creeper. I've been hit on by many guys who on first glance I was attracted to but in the end had me back pedaling so quick and looking for a way out.
2013-02-06 04:59:43 AM
2 votes:
SAT time:

Jezebel is to Gender Relations as:
a) Townhall is to Politics
b) Clowns are to Comedy
c) Fark is to News
d) Goatse is to Erotica
e) All of the Above

/Hint: The Answer is 'e'
2013-02-06 03:31:07 AM
2 votes:

I sound fat: I am always a bit wary of a woman giving guys advice about what works to pick them up. Guys tend to know what works better than women do. What women dont get is that if you reject a man, he doesent CARE if you think he is creepy. Most (not all) women would lay down rules for guys that would be in stark contrast to the way they were approached by the love of their life. "dont approach if she is looking at her phone." Seriously? I fall in love at first sight with a girl and I am supposed to not at least acknowledge her existance? If you offend them or scare them, sure, get the hell away, but ... you never know unless you approach them.


The guy upthread had it right. These articles aren't written with the goal of coaching the author's future boyfriends into how to approach and win her over. They are written because the author and her friends are constantly approached by an endless barrage of boring beta males, the kind of guys who read farking Jezebel articles are are likely to be swayed and discouraged from ever approaching them again. They want to get the losers out of the way so their attention is cleared up for the alpha males who don't give a fark what anyone thinks about how and when they should approach because they are going to do it whenever they damn well feel like it.
2013-02-06 02:54:12 AM
2 votes:
Too many are grasping here.  Women are like dog turds, the older they get, the easier they are to pick up.
2013-02-06 02:32:58 AM
2 votes:
Just do what I do --

Be an introverted depressive social retard one step away from agoraphobia.
If you don't go anywhere or do anything, you can't creep out women.
2013-02-06 02:31:29 AM
2 votes:

Genevieve Marie: bingethinker: It's also hilarious that women complain about men trying to learn better techniques to meet women, when women's magazines are full of articles that are not only about how to get men, but how to coldly manipulate them to get what you want.

For what it's worth, I think those articles in women's magazines are pretty creepy and weird and gross too.


These are the same magazines that say it's sexy to be a jealously psycho quim, and men get off on you giving their cocks friction burns.  The magazines themselves are creepy and worthless.
2013-02-06 02:13:11 AM
2 votes:
Actually... the best advice that never sinks in for most guys is to stop taking advice from women.  Everyone knows advice from women about how to attract women sucks.  This "Don't be aggressive, pick apart the subtle nuances in her body language" advice is a load of garbage.  This kind of advice is just a sh**t test: you fail by paying any mind to it.  The real way to pick up women is to have confidence, and to be persistent -  When one chick turns you down, just let it roll off your back and move on to the next one.  A man carrying himself with the attitude that his normal healthy desire to interact with a person in his vicinity is something scary and gross, worrying about whether women think he is a "creeper" - that is the COMPLETE OPPOSITE of what heterosexual women generally find attractive.

So then the question becomes... how does a man find the confidence to behave in this way?  Well, that depends on individual circumstances, there's no quick fix, it might be a long journey.  Seeing a therapist would probably be a good first step.
2013-02-06 02:02:29 AM
2 votes:

browntimmy: Guy they like being bold = sexy.
Guy they don't like being bold = creepy weirdo.
But no guy knows which one he is until after making the first move. (granted some guys are just plain creepy weirdos, but even then there's someone out there for almost everyone)

When you look at the fact that most guys won't be offended or creeped out by women flirting with them (unless they're just uncommonly disgusting), it would make the most sense and make everything easier for women to initiate things. But we all know that won't ever happen and the world making sense is way too much to ask.


This. And while our feminist may disagree out of personal experience, I've got ten years of restaurant time sharing with waitresses to back that up. Office, restaurant, captive target, whatever; women respond well to physically attractive, and poorly to ugly. Denying that is lying.

I'm not judging, but the ladies need to be more honest about it.
2013-02-06 01:59:49 AM
2 votes:

browntimmy: Guy they like being bold = sexy.
Guy they don't like being bold = creepy weirdo.
But no guy knows which one he is until after making the first move. (granted some guys are just plain creepy weirdos, but even then there's someone out there for almost everyone)

When you look at the fact that most guys won't be offended or creeped out by women flirting with them (unless they're just uncommonly disgusting), it would make the most sense and make everything easier for women to initiate things. But we all know that won't ever happen and the world making sense is way too much to ask.


Ok, here's a tip: Initiate the conversation, but don't initiate the "move" until she is giving you signals of attraction. Just talk neutrally about the environment or something she's holding or whatever. Then start talking about her and yourself. Find an excuse to bring up a few interesting things about yourself that convey that you have friends, interesting hobbies, ex-girlfriends (TRUST ME ON THIS! It's like an automatic "Ok. He's safe. Another woman dated him." switch.) Then look for the following: Is she facing you with her entire body instead of over her shoulder? If you drop the conversation, does she restart it? Does she touch any part of her face or hair more than once while listening to you? Does she tip her head forward while listening? Does she smile when you say something that isn't funny?

You get adept at it with experience. Since you haven't hit on her yet, you haven't risked anything. You can back away without being called a creeper.

Hey, Farkers, did you think this was good advice? If so, you just agreed with one of the "douchebag pickup artists" you all love to hate. See? It isn't all evil mind hacking. The vast majority of it is all about making her feel comfortable with the stance that she will be more attracted to you if you aren't desperately trying to invade her space with your own pathetic needs. There's way too much emphasis on "negging." The community moved beyond that years ago.
2013-02-06 01:53:05 AM
2 votes:

apoptotic: FTA: "don't tell her that she'd be prettier if she smiled. She knows what face she's making and doesn't want anyone telling her to change it."

I don't know what possesses people to say that, but I hear it enough that it's turned into a pet peeve of mine. If there's ever a thread about me going postal on someone, chances are good that'll be what triggered it.


That's one of my things too. I've straight up told several guys "I'm under no obligation to fake a smile for you, so no, fark off"
2013-02-06 01:49:20 AM
2 votes:

Bathysphere: As someone who works retail, I am getting a kick out of this thread. We are like sitting ducks for creeper men, especially since we are forced to act as friendly as possible and weirdos misinterperet that.


I used to bartend. Same thing.
2013-02-06 01:48:49 AM
2 votes:
As someone who works retail, I am getting a kick out of this thread. We are like sitting ducks for creeper men, especially since we are forced to act as friendly as possible and weirdos misinterperet that.
2013-02-06 01:47:49 AM
2 votes:

Genevieve Marie: Fano: Exactly, and surprised to see Genevieve_Marie declare it as false out of hand. If you are completely unattracted to a person, you are already negative enough that you would ascribe terrible motives to them.

Maybe that's how it works for some people, but I don't think I've ever been like that personally. It's never bothered me when a guy I'm not attracted to flirts with me, as long as it's polite and not too intrusive.

The only problem I occasionally ran into when I was single was the guy who thought he'd be able to change my mind and make himself attractive to me if he tried hard enough. There was one guy that stepped so, so far out of line on that one. It still creeps me out when I think about it.


I wasn't calling you a liar or anything. I agree with the content of that post too. Too many guys think that a "no" means they just need to figure out the key to the lock, when they should just move on. My post was based on thinking of some female friends that ascribed crummier motives to unattractive guys that hit on them. More handsome guys were just assholes, but less good looking guys were creeps for even asking.
2013-02-06 01:39:09 AM
2 votes:

Genevieve Marie: Fano: Genevieve Marie: The biggest common thread in every suggestion is that it generally makes people uncomfortable if you come on to them in a situation where they can't easily get away from you or are obligated to be nice.

That is a very good point. To me, that's the most sinister thing that romcoms teach men that see them.

Yup. That and "Being told no just means that you should try harder. "


Ooh. That's probably even MORE sinister.  Being told NO is a pretty strong indicator. Creepy friendzone guys work their asses off to avoid a no in the first place, so if they can't take the hint then... they move on to creepy stalker guy. There may be farkers that can tell tales of girlfriends that initially said hell no, no way, then they ended up together.  Heck actually,  I can think of a married couple I knew from college that was a Chasing Amy situation, except it was more the girl wasn't dating ANYONE, but was judged to be a lesbian for various reasons, and her future husband pined for her ENDLESSLY. But she never told him NO.
2013-02-06 01:24:49 AM
2 votes:

BSABSVR: rynthetyn: I have a friend who's routinely posting on Facebook about how women don't like nice guys. He's also the same guy who's one of those really huggy people where I had to put my foot down and make it really clear that I don't like people touching me. Instead of picking up on body language, when people recoiled he'd try to be extra huggy.

Did he just not get that pulling back meant "less of this" not "try more", or did he just think he could changing your emotional state through the healing power of his hugs?


He's one of those extroverts who needs physical contact with people but too socially awkward to understand that if somebody's an introvert who hates being touched, you can't force them to like it.
2013-02-06 01:23:59 AM
2 votes:

Fano: Genevieve Marie: The biggest common thread in every suggestion is that it generally makes people uncomfortable if you come on to them in a situation where they can't easily get away from you or are obligated to be nice.

That is a very good point. To me, that's the most sinister thing that romcoms teach men that see them.


Yup. That and "Being told no just means that you should try harder. "
2013-02-06 12:59:07 AM
2 votes:

Seth'n'Spectrum: PUA = Philistine: Uncouth, Aggressive?


Pick Up Artist.
2013-02-06 12:49:05 AM
2 votes:
25.media.tumblr.com
2013-02-06 12:22:57 AM
2 votes:
"I have a well in my basement that you would look so good in" isn't a compliment that works very well, at least in my experience.
2013-02-06 12:19:48 AM
2 votes:
Complimenting shoes and eyeglasses are usually safe, in my experience.

That's all I got.
2013-02-07 09:25:07 AM
1 votes:
don't worry about being thought of as creepy.  it doesn't mean anything about you as a person.  that's just what women say when they're approached by someone they're not interested in.  from your side though, nothing ventured nothing gained.  i'd say 75% of the time, even if a girl is attracted to you, you'll still need to make the first move.  that's our burden as men.  so just go up to her and do your thing.  if you get rejected, move on.  who gives a crap if she thinks you're "creepy" lol.  i mean try not to be a spaz or drool or pick your nose or whatever, but even if you do suck at talking to women, just suck it up and go for it anyway man!
2013-02-07 08:50:04 AM
1 votes:
Smelly Pirate Hooker:
Thank goodness the manly men are here to explain to all of us stupid biatches what we really say and do.

c'mon, you kvetched about the words slut and whore (that you brought up in the first place), and you named yourself 'smelly pirate hooker'.


i'm not saying that makes you a stupid biatch, but self awareness may not exactly be your strong suit.
and that really has nothing to do with if you pee sitting down or standing up.
2013-02-07 08:36:40 AM
1 votes:

Smelly Pirate Hooker: If she started calling you at work, you might. If she showed up at your house, you definitely would. And if women murdered men in anywhere near the numbers that men murder women, you would feel threatened.


If you look at familial murders (those of siblings, parents, children and spouses), the perpetrator is female in a third of the cases. Taking that down to just spousal murder is more relevant to your statement here. For spousal murder, the number is 41% overall, and 47% for black couples. PDF, Bureau of Justice Statistics.

The perception that the numbers are so vastly unbalanced doesn't seem to be supported by statistics I could find.
 
And they don't usually make multiple movies and TV shows in which the man who kills his wife is portrayed as some kind of heroic figure who got revenge for a terrible wrong the way they did about Betty Broderick  or as some kind of sympathetic anti-hero like Clara Harris was.
2013-02-06 11:52:55 PM
1 votes:

Comsamvimes: I'm not bad looking, I'm just crushingly awkward and shy. Makes meeting girls very hard. And I have a very hard time telling when a girl is craving my wave.


I'm still reading through this topic, but this stood out, because...well, it's me in a nutshell.

There are times where I'll wonder if the girl I just passed who I could only glance at out of the corner of my eye awkwardly was genuinely intrigued by me and probably wondering why I didn't stop to talk to her.  As for the confidence bit, well, there's a difference between looking in the mirror and thinking you're hot stuff and getting out in the world and still feeling the same way.  I'm still trying to work on that, honestly.  Couple that with the fact that I'm still a benchwarmer (so to speak) and, well...

/I really do believe that there's some beautiful, intelligent woman out there, perhaps in the same position as me
//But in Baltimore?  Farked if I know...
2013-02-06 05:16:48 PM
1 votes:

heap: Smelly Pirate Hooker: Yes, I'm sure that the 15% or so of the people on Fark with vaginas are grateful to be identified as sluts or whores.

if you're really het up about people calling others slut, whore, or skank....guys in generally really aren't your target audience.

this isn't saying that no man has ever uttered the phrases in judgment, but...be damned if it isn't waaaaay overwhelmed by the number of women who make those judgments, and use those terms to do so. hell, you yourself used the phrase 'easy' to describe 'i like sex', when in men that condition is just 'normal'.

liking sex is good. it's how we're designed. there's nothing 'easy' or 'slutty' about it. but at the same time, acting like those are magic words you should actually give two shiats about is just as absurd.


I'm not "het up" about it. Just making an observation.
2013-02-06 04:56:00 PM
1 votes:

udhq: apoptotic: udhq: I've had relationships with women I didn't like personally

Why?

Attraction is a complicated thing, if I could quantify it, I would be a very wealthy man.

I mean, in some cases, I've been with women who couldn't hold a conversation because I valued their kindness over their intelligence, in others I've just found antagonism to be stimulating.  I don't know how else to say it, but fighting, in a controlled manner, can be a lot of fun.


I understand that attraction is complicated, but I don't understand how you end up in relationships with women you don't like. Are you leading these women to believe that you do like them, even though you don't? Or are you finding women that are so insecure that they'll say ok when you announce "I don't like you, but we should totally be in a relationship anyway"?

Maybe I should back up a step....what do you mean by the word "relationship"?
2013-02-06 04:10:00 PM
1 votes:

apoptotic: udhq: I've had relationships with women I didn't like personally

Why?


Attraction is a complicated thing, if I could quantify it, I would be a very wealthy man.

I mean, in some cases, I've been with women who couldn't hold a conversation because I valued their kindness over their intelligence, in others I've just found antagonism to be stimulating.  I don't know how else to say it, but fighting, in a controlled manner, can be a lot of fun.
2013-02-06 03:58:39 PM
1 votes:

udhq: I've had relationships with women I didn't like personally


Why?
2013-02-06 03:36:23 PM
1 votes:

heap: Smelly Pirate Hooker: But I don't see all that many men here at Fark condemning it.

i resemble that remark. few places in the world are more skank, slut, or whore friendly than fark.


Yes, I'm sure that the 15% or so of the people on Fark with vaginas are grateful to be identified as sluts or whores.

I understand that men like having access to women who are easy. But they don't usually LIKE them as people. And they sure as fark don't respect them. Maybe that's why few women embrace those labels.
2013-02-06 03:34:58 PM
1 votes:

udhq: don't think you'd be as interested as you claim in a synopses of a day in the life of my relationship with my ex-girlfriend, but if you're arguing that it doesn't happen, you're wrong. I've had relationships with women I didn't like personally, and relationships with women who I loved deeply that were good people but not at all curious about the world around them. I've made both "work" to varying degrees. Like I said, romance can cloud one's judgement.

Sometimes you find small, seemingly insignificant things you have in common, sometimes you find ways of avoiding meaningful communication altogether. In one case, I worked days and she worked nights, and so we hardly ever saw each other.

I'm not saying it's a good idea, but the possibility is not going to stop me from asking a women out on a date to whom I'm otherwise attracted.


Uh huh. So..tell me what the relationship is if you aren't talking to one another. How do you interact? What is it precisely that you do that still makes it a relationship rather than a roommate?
2013-02-06 03:15:56 PM
1 votes:

gulogulo: No, I don't read Jane Austen novels (or haven't since high school) because I found them trite and ridiculous, fiction if you will.


/aside: they're actually great works of satire about human relationships, much like what we're talking about in this thread. They went over my head when I was in high school because I missed the fact that it's all very tongue in cheek - consider the very first sentences of Pride and Prejudice: "It is a truth universally acknowledged, that a single man in possession of a good fortune must be in want of a wife.However little known the feelings or views of such a man may be on his first entering a neighbourhood, this truth is so well fixed in the minds of the surrounding families, that he is considered as the rightful property of some one or other of their daughters."
It's really not being serious in the slightest.
2013-02-06 03:12:06 PM
1 votes:

FirstNationalBastard: Theaetetus: fredklein: But if Ms. One and Ms. Ten (on my list) both came up to me and said "Hi", I wouldn't go calling Ms. One a 'creeper' because she said 'Hi' to me.

But I bet you would if she said "hi, want to go out," you replied, "no, thanks, let's just be friends," and she said "no, I have no interest in being friends with you, and I'm also never going to help you with anything in the future."

No, I believe his reaction would be "...biatch",


Well, you'd know better that I what my reaction would be. ::eyeroll::
2013-02-06 02:40:27 PM
1 votes:

udhq: A guy isn't doing anyone any favors by pretending he doesn't want to be more than friends when he does. I would argue that there are few things worse than a guy hanging around "as a friend" because he thinks that that might change someday. That is like stalking.

That doesn't mean a woman is to blame for not wanting a romantic relationship, and conversely a man shouldn't be blamed for not wanting a platonic relationship.


How do you have a romantic relationship with someone you can't be friends with?  I mean, you don't like talking to them, walk me through the day to day of what makes that relationship romantic and special since you don't have friendship in common?
2013-02-06 02:31:15 PM
1 votes:

udhq: My point is just that "creepy" is simply the female version of "biatch", it's a gender-loaded pejorative that people of a certain quality throw out there when they've got nothing else.


Yes.  That IS your point.  And it's also your problem.  It's exactly why women don't like you.

But, like in the xkcd cartoon, telling you this won't help.
2013-02-06 02:30:25 PM
1 votes:

Millennium: udhq: I'll never forget when I was in college, I asked a woman out, and she said "we should just be friends." Now, I could have said "Ok", and dealt with that as it came, but I owned a van at the time, and so like clockwork, that kind of "friend" always seemed to call up around the end of spring semester, asking if I would help her move. On top of that, I just didn't find her terribly interesting to talk to on a platonic level.

So, I decided to be honest and soften it to "I appreciate that, but I have not had good luck being friends with women I'm attracted to." She looked a little taken aback, but she hugged me and we went on our separate ways. A couple days later this story gets back to me from a friend of a friend with the addendum, "she thought that was totally creepy."

The fact is what I said and did was honest and polite, she didn't get what she wanted out of the situation, and calling me "creepy" was the only way she knew of to blame me for her hard feelings over the situation. I saw her a couple of times after that, I was cordial as I didn't feel I had anything to be ashamed of, but she was always really awkward and you could tell she was embarrassed every time we saw each other.

Well, yeah; it was creepy. You stuck around her for years on end, with no real interest other than figuring out an angle to get into her pants. Of course that's creepy: you weren't a friend, you were a hunter, and you got her to tell you where she lived. You farking scared the farking bejeezus out of her, you fark.

This is why I say you should never continue to pursue someone who has said she's not interested. You scared her so badly that she started warning the people she knows. And now you're wondering why you're having trouble meeting people? You've got a reputation now, and you earned it; they're scared of you because you did something that should scare them. If you'd been honest about this from the beginning, things would have been different, but instead you did the Ni ...


Lol wat?  I don't know what you're talking about.  I didn't pursue her for "years on end", I don't know where you got that.  I knew her for all of 2 weeks, and I never spoke to her again, beyond saying "hi" in public, after the situation in question.  I didn't try to maintain proximity, I didn't try to play the "nice guy", and I certainly don't have a reputation of being anything but completely Michael-Cera-esque with women.

Seriously, It seems like a lot of you people have a preconceived agenda and you're seeing what you want to see in my story.
2013-02-06 02:26:36 PM
1 votes:

Millennium: udhq: I'll never forget when I was in college, I asked a woman out, and she said "we should just be friends." Now, I could have said "Ok", and dealt with that as it came, but I owned a van at the time, and so like clockwork, that kind of "friend" always seemed to call up around the end of spring semester, asking if I would help her move. On top of that, I just didn't find her terribly interesting to talk to on a platonic level.

So, I decided to be honest and soften it to "I appreciate that, but I have not had good luck being friends with women I'm attracted to." She looked a little taken aback, but she hugged me and we went on our separate ways. A couple days later this story gets back to me from a friend of a friend with the addendum, "she thought that was totally creepy."

The fact is what I said and did was honest and polite, she didn't get what she wanted out of the situation, and calling me "creepy" was the only way she knew of to blame me for her hard feelings over the situation. I saw her a couple of times after that, I was cordial as I didn't feel I had anything to be ashamed of, but she was always really awkward and you could tell she was embarrassed every time we saw each other.

Well, yeah; it was creepy. You stuck around her for years on end, with no real interest other than figuring out an angle to get into her pants. Of course that's creepy: you weren't a friend, you were a hunter, and you got her to tell you where she lived. You farking scared the farking bejeezus out of her, you fark.

This is why I say you should never continue to pursue someone who has said she's not interested. You scared her so badly that she started warning the people she knows. And now you're wondering why you're having trouble meeting people? You've got a reputation now, and you earned it; they're scared of you because you did something that should scare them. If you'd been honest about this from the beginning, things would have been different, but instead you did the Ni ...


I'm not going to touch whether or not the initial contact was creepy or not, but social circles in college aren't what I would call insular. He very well could have been "that dude with the van that so-and-so knows" to a lot of people. The woman in question might not have been forward enough prior to his initiating contact to try and take advantage of that through a mutual friend, but she was after she realized that he had interest in pursuing something. That's pretty shiatty in and of itself.
2013-02-06 02:15:12 PM
1 votes:

ciberido: No, her didn't want to be more than friends. "More than friends" means "friends and more." What he wanted was a girlfriend whom he had no interest in being friends with. That's LESS than friends.


No.

This could literally not be more wrong.

If you think a romantic relationship is simply friendship plus sex, then I offer my sincere condolences on the hand you have been dealt in your love life.
2013-02-06 02:09:49 PM
1 votes:

gulogulo: misterpriapus: Oh, and about the whole friend zone thing. It's pretty simple. Being in the friend zone means you're the guy who gets to fix her toilet and run her errands when her car is broken down while listening to her go on endlessly about her wonderful new boyfriend, who you know is just another con pickup artist. She's basically using you to deal with all her mundane shiat while someone else gets to enjoy her glamorous side.

It means she answers the door for you in a grandma house coat and no makeup and only bothers to make herself look pretty for said pickup artist, and asks you for opinions while modeling something sexy that she's wearing only for him. It means that she looks better and more endearing to you in that house coat than she will ever look to him all dolled up. It means listening to her give you well-intentioned but useless advice on how to meet some hypothetical woman somewhere when you'd just rather hook up with her because you're not interested in anyone else. It means being there for her when she's crying and losing her shiat after said pickup artist just tossed her aside and knowing that you would treat her so much better if only she'd let you.

Being in the friend zone means watching Pretty In Pink with her (since she's got the night off from banging her pickup artist), knowing that nothing more risque than a bucket of popcorn will happen while secretly wishing that Molly Ringwold had hooked up with Ducky at the end instead of that rich yuppie guy. You feel that brother's pain.

It means that you put up with her using you because at the end of the day you still love her with all of your heart and you'd rather that she not have to deal with a broken toilet than risk losing her altogether. Being in the friend zone means that you don't ever dare tell her how you feel because that would make her feel awkward and she'll very likely pull you out of that friend zone and put you straight into the creeper zone and you'll never see her again.


Don't be such a coward and doormat. Fixed.  Or do it and understand its YOUR CHOICE to stay there.

Yeah. Either be upfront and risk getting smacked down, or just break it off completely. The "Nice Guy" act is complete bullshiat, and the "nice guys" in the "friend zone" are generally more manipulative scumbags than what this thread refer to as pick-up artists.
2013-02-06 02:05:45 PM
1 votes:
It's best to just take a few 'how to pick up women' courses if you are no good at it. It's not a simple thing for a man to talk to women and, unless you were lucky enough to learn it naturally as you grew up, you really need someone to show you the ropes. I wish I had done it but I'm old and my time was before the internet.

Also, telling a man to treat a woman as a 'person' is not a good idea. You can't talk to a woman you are sexually interested in like you would another guy. The best you will get is 'friend' status which is worse than nothing.

The hardest thing to realize for a man is that a woman has absolutely, positively no interest whatsoever in sex. You have to play a lot of games to even get a woman to think about it. It's very maddening.

Never, ever ask a woman how to meet women, they have no idea. There are three types of men as far as women are concerned, the type they SAY they want, the type they THINK they want and the type they end up having sex with. The three types usually have nothing in common.

/ my 2 cents.
2013-02-06 02:05:22 PM
1 votes:

misterpriapus: Oh, and about the whole friend zone thing. It's pretty simple. Being in the friend zone means you're the guy who gets to fix her toilet and run her errands when her car is broken down while listening to her go on endlessly about her wonderful new boyfriend, who you know is just another con pickup artist. She's basically using you to deal with all her mundane shiat while someone else gets to enjoy her glamorous side.

It means she answers the door for you in a grandma house coat and no makeup and only bothers to make herself look pretty for said pickup artist, and asks you for opinions while modeling something sexy that she's wearing only for him. It means that she looks better and more endearing to you in that house coat than she will ever look to him all dolled up. It means listening to her give you well-intentioned but useless advice on how to meet some hypothetical woman somewhere when you'd just rather hook up with her because you're not interested in anyone else. It means being there for her when she's crying and losing her shiat after said pickup artist just tossed her aside and knowing that you would treat her so much better if only she'd let you.

Being in the friend zone means watching Pretty In Pink with her (since she's got the night off from banging her pickup artist), knowing that nothing more risque than a bucket of popcorn will happen while secretly wishing that Molly Ringwold had hooked up with Ducky at the end instead of that rich yuppie guy. You feel that brother's pain.

It means that you put up with her using you because at the end of the day you still love her with all of your heart and you'd rather that she not have to deal with a broken toilet than risk losing her altogether. Being in the friend zone means that you don't ever dare tell her how you feel because that would make her feel awkward and she'll very likely pull you out of that friend zone and put you straight into the creeper zone and you'll never see her again.

Seriou ...


Don't be such a coward and doormat. Fixed.  Or do it and understand its YOUR CHOICE to stay there.
2013-02-06 02:04:14 PM
1 votes:

udhq: It is not. It is a completely separate paradigm. And it is not purely sexual, as you and others keep insinuating. Sex is a single competent of the experience of a romantic relationship. I would describe the totality of that experience to be more a spiritual one than anything else, and I have genuine pity for anyone who's life experience has led them to believe otherwise.


Ok. What kind of relationship did you want to have with this woman?  You didn't like talking to her, and you weren't ok with being just friends,  so what then?
2013-02-06 02:04:05 PM
1 votes:

Smelly Pirate Hooker: It is esp. amusing when men on Fark biatch about good-looking men being able to get away with behavior less-attractive men don't.

Because, obviously, that's never true of women. Men don't ever tolerate behavior from attractive women they wouldn't put up with for a second from the uggos.

They're very ethical and even-handed that way. I know from reading many Fark threads.


I don't think I've ever seen men claim they treat beautiful and ugly women the same in relationships and potential relationships.  Almost 500 comments in the thread, and while I didn't read them all, has anyone made this claim?

What I see men doing in this thread is trying to point out that women are just as bad about things as they are.  That, when coupled with the standard that more often than not men are the ones who approach the women first (and are expected to do so) leaves a double standard.  It results in men who act exactly the same as the attractive men but are not found to be physically attractive get the creeper vibe. These men aren't allowed to hit on coworkers, waitresses, bartenders, salesgirls, etc etc because if they proceed with an unwanted advance it is creepy and they are horrible people for giving things a shot - at least according to many of the women in this thread and plenty of the stupid feminist internet articles.  I don't think it is fair to guys with mediocre looks that they already have a strike against them and are then asked to make less attempts on top of that, all to keep some apparently fragile women from being annoyed. One would think that the feminist women would be against that double standard too, but all too often they want it both ways.

That said, obviously there are numerous double standards between the sexes, so don't read this post as me trying to say women have it easy and woe is men. This is just my opinion on this one issue.
2013-02-06 02:03:47 PM
1 votes:

Theaetetus: udhq: I never hung out with those women, I never spoke to them.

You also didn't find this girl interesting to talk to... so why ask her out?


He wanted to use her to move his junk around.

And she only wanted to use him to move her junk around.

The nerve.
2013-02-06 02:02:01 PM
1 votes:

browntimmy: gulogulo:
So..why were you friends with someone that only contacted you to help her move that you had no interest in on any other level other than dating? It sounds like you were pretty dishonest with the college friend about "being friends." "

Um, he said he first asked her out, that's a pretty honest indicator that he'd like to be more than friends.


No, her didn't want to be more than friends.  "More than friends" means "friends and more."  What he wanted was a girlfriend whom he had no interest in being friends with.   That's LESS than friends.
2013-02-06 02:01:11 PM
1 votes:

Millennium: fredklein: And if Joe flirts a certain way with a woman and gets laid, then Bob should be able to flirt that way with a woman and get laid, too. Similar.

Why? Joe is not Bob. They are different people; they have different tools.

Let's flip it around. If I took a bunch of pictures of women and asked you to rank them from most to least attractive, you could certainly do that. At the top of this list would probably be some women who would only have to say hello to you and you'd already be fumbling for your zipper, and at the bottom might be some who would have a very hard time convincing you to date them (for some, it might even be impossible). I doubt this is controversial. If I were to take that same list and rank them, my ordering would probably differ at least a little from yours. Even if our lists agreed completely, I could certainly find men who would make different lists. I doubt that this is controversial either; you'd write it off as differing tastes between us.

Why, then, would it be controversial to flip the genders? Is it not possible that women might be attracted to some people, but not others, along similar lines? What makes this unfair?


I'm sure he'll find a reason.
2013-02-06 01:55:07 PM
1 votes:

udhq: Theaetetus: udhq: My response was essentially just the caveat of "don't call me to ask you for help moving at the end of the semester."

Theaetetus: I was totally right about your anger issues.

The only thing I can glean from your posts is that I don't think you know what the word "anger" means.


If you genuinely think "anger" is synonymous with a refusal to be taken advantage of, well, then that would be entirely consistent with the personality profile of a guy white-knighting a gender studies thread in a desperate bid for attention from anonymous women on the internet.
2013-02-06 01:50:14 PM
1 votes:
Oh, and about the whole friend zone thing.  It's pretty simple.  Being in the friend zone means you're the guy who gets to fix her toilet and run her errands when her car is broken down while listening to her go on endlessly about her wonderful new boyfriend, who you know is just another con pickup artist.  She's basically using you to deal with all her mundane shiat while someone else gets to enjoy her glamorous side.

It means she answers the door for you in a grandma house coat and no makeup and only bothers to make herself look pretty for said pickup artist, and asks you for opinions while modeling something sexy that she's wearing only for him.  It means that she looks better and more endearing to you in that house coat than she will ever look to him all dolled up.  It means listening to her give you well-intentioned but useless advice on how to meet some hypothetical woman somewhere when you'd just rather hook up with her because you're not interested in anyone else. It means being there for her when she's crying and losing her shiat after said pickup artist just tossed her aside and knowing that you would treat her so much better if only she'd let you.

Being in the friend zone means watching Pretty In Pink with her (since she's got the night off from banging her pickup artist), knowing that nothing more risque than a bucket of popcorn will happen while secretly wishing that Molly Ringwold had hooked up with Ducky at the end instead of that rich yuppie guy.  You feel that brother's pain.

It means that you put up with her using you because at the end of the day you still love her with all of your heart and you'd rather that she not have to deal with a broken toilet than risk losing her altogether.  Being in the friend zone means that you don't ever dare tell her how you feel because that would make her feel awkward and she'll very likely pull you out of that friend zone and put you straight into the creeper zone and you'll never see her again.

Seriously, fark the friend zone!
2013-02-06 01:42:58 PM
1 votes:

fredklein: Because every lonely guy can afford to get a degree in psychology to figure out why women like some guys and not others.

If I see a guy unlock a safe with the combo 1-2-3-4-5*, I'm going to try the same combination. I'm not going to sit there and try to figure out WHY the combination worked (maybe the first guy unlocked it on Jan 2, at 3:45pm), I'm just gonna try it. Especially if I see lots of other guys use that combination.


Safes are not people. Safes don't have brains or hormones; they react the same way to the same action every time. People don't do that; you don't do it either. Why would you expect women to be any different?

And women should never play hard-to-get. Then men would never have to continue pursuing them.

Playing hard-to-get is a cruel thing to do. You do not want to end up with someone who would play with your emotions in such a heartless manner; just write her off and move on with your life. She won't be back.

However, what is this "have to continue pursuing them"? This does not happen. You always have the option to stop and look for another fish in the sea; nothing binds you to continue pursuing her.

So, don't be menacing (which, I'll just point out is a highly subjective thing- how am I supposed to read her mind to know what she thinks is 'menacing'??")...

Actually, the basics aren't really subjective at all: societal defaults do have their uses. Don't make a habit of looking scary or consistently reminding people of your (real or illusory) ability to overpower them, and you're pretty much there. Some people will still be frightened by you due to less-rational factors, but that's their own problem: there's nothing you can do about it, and trying will look fake to anyone who isn't worried about such factors.

...and don't NOT be menacing.

Just don't fake things.
2013-02-06 01:38:18 PM
1 votes:

udhq: Theaetetus: udhq: Theaetetus: It's a little creepy to ask someone that you don't talk to and don't find interesting for sex. And quite creepy to say, when they try to politely turn you down, that you don't have any interest in them other than sex.

Note that I didn't say "dishonest". But yes, creepy.

You do realize that there is more than sex to a romantic relationship, right?

You're projecting your own creepiness on other people in this thread.....

Pro-tip: when you've told a story about how other people have called you creepy, and others in the thread agree that you sound creepy, it's probably a bit late to try the "NO U ARE!" tactic.

Right, because I'm the guy white-knighting a gender studies thread in a transparent attempt to gain the attention and approval of anonymous internet women.


Heh. I was totally right about your anger issues.
2013-02-06 01:37:27 PM
1 votes:

The sound of one hand clapping: Theaetetus: It's a little creepy to ask someone that you don't talk to and don't find interesting for sex. And quite creepy to say, when they try to politely turn you down, that you don't have any interest in them other than sex.

Note that I didn't say "dishonest". But yes, creepy.

I think you are misinterpreting him a little.

I've asked women out who I've maybe chatted to once or twice and got the 'I think we should just be friends' line.  This tells me 2 things.  They are aware that I'm asking them out because I'm attracted to them, not just because I want to talk about the latest Marvel Action Movie and they are not attracted to me.

Now, I have enough friends anyway.  I already have too many that I can't hang out with them as much as I want.  If I tried to start a friendship with every girl I asked out it would just get stupid.  It's not that I wouldn't want to be friends with them.  It's more that I only need so many friends.  But I'm not going to stop asking girls out just because I can't take on anymore friends.

It's not about hating the girl for saying no.  It's about being honest with them and simply saying that I'm not looking for a friendship but a relationship.  If they don't want that, fair enough.

As far as I'm concerned, that kind of behavior isn't creepy, it's just honest.


Oh, I get it now, he thinks I was "angry" for not wanting to be friends with a woman I asked out.

In all fairness, there's probably a decent shot that she didn't want to actually be "friends", it's just something you say in that situation.

Chances are, at that point, we both wanted the same thing: to agree that if we saw each other again in public, we would briefly-but-cordially acknowledge one another, but nothing else.  My response was essentially just the caveat of "don't call me to ask you for help moving at the end of the semester."
2013-02-06 01:37:12 PM
1 votes:

fredklein: If I see a guy unlock a safe with the combo 1-2-3-4-5*, I'm going to try the same combination. I'm not going to sit there and try to figure out WHY the combination worked (maybe the first guy unlocked it on Jan 2, at 3:45pm), I'm just gonna try it. Especially if I see lots of other guys use that combination.


Note to observers that now fred has gone from talking about different women, to not just the same woman, but the same woman who has been "unlocked" by "lots of guys".
2013-02-06 01:35:25 PM
1 votes:
Ah, I love seeing Theaetetus get his ass handed to him time after time on Fark. He's a smarmy little asshole who deserves every bit of insult he's been slapped down with.

For those of you looking for an explanation of his atrociously bad behavior, he's an engineer and a patent lawyer, according to previous threads.
2013-02-06 01:29:21 PM
1 votes:
Submitter is wrong. All women are biatches and whores. If a male person (like, say, one on Fark) has a negative experience with a female, it means ALL females are bad people.

It's science.
2013-02-06 01:22:38 PM
1 votes:

udhq: Theaetetus: It's a little creepy to ask someone that you don't talk to and don't find interesting for sex. And quite creepy to say, when they try to politely turn you down, that you don't have any interest in them other than sex.

Note that I didn't say "dishonest". But yes, creepy.

You do realize that there is more than sex to a romantic relationship, right?

You're projecting your own creepiness on other people in this thread.....


Pro-tip: when you've told a story about how other people have called you creepy, and others in the thread agree that you sound creepy, it's probably a bit late to try the "NO U ARE!" tactic.
2013-02-06 01:12:34 PM
1 votes:

Theaetetus: Is the lesson "actually be friends with them, rather than pretend to be their friend so you can nail them"?


You ... do realize that sometimes people just want to fark each other with no relationship or even friendship required... and that's OK, right?
2013-02-06 01:11:12 PM
1 votes:

Mister Pleco: 1) Half the liquid is in the glass.


The glass is full- half is filled with liquid, half is filled with air.

2) The grapes ARE sour.

Well they will be by the time I can reach them. :-)

3) If you don't like lemonade, then you needn't worry about what to do when being handed lemons.

I always hated that phrase: "If life gives you lemons, make lemonade." It's stupid- to make lemonade, I would also need sugar, water, a pitcher, and a spoon to stir it with. And maybe some wood to make a lemonade stand, and poster-board to make a sign 'Lemonade $1', and cups to serve it in. Just lemons by themselves are farking useless.

4) Winners never quit and quitters never win, but those that never win and never quit are idiots.

The only winning move is not to play.
2013-02-06 01:09:56 PM
1 votes:

udhq: Theaetetus: ... Uh, huh. Let's reexamine this for a second:
I asked a woman out... I just didn't find her terribly interesting to talk to on a platonic level.
The fact is, you're creepy, and she picked up on that.

You do realize that there is a distinction between platonic relationships and romantic ones, right?  That they aren't the same?

I have dated dozens of women who I would never consider calling up just to talk or hang out.  Conversely, I have hundreds of people I would consider platonic friends that I would never consider dating.  They're two different kinds of relationships, and a person can, in fact, pique one kind of interest and not the other.

But thanks for proving my point that "creepy" is just the female version of "biatch", an essentially meaningless, demeaning gender-loaded catch-all that is used solely in these impotent attempts to claim unearned power or status in social situations.


You have anger issues, too. Probably feeds into the creepiness.
2013-02-06 01:08:51 PM
1 votes:

fredklein: Theaetetus: No two situations are EXACTLY alike. Therefore, a solution that works for one situation would never work, and should never, ever be attempted in a different, but similar situation. Got it.

I had sex with my wife. It was great. I'm going to have sex with your wife. If she has any questions, I'll just show her this thread as your tacit approval.

That's not a similar situation. Having sex with another person's wife is not similar to having sex with one's own wife.

But if you have sex with yours, I can have sex with mine. That is a similar situation.

And if Joe flirts a certain way with a woman and gets laid, then Bob should be able to flirt that way with a woman and get laid, too. Similar.


So, when a man's ownership is involved, it's a different situation, but otherwise single women are all identical?
2013-02-06 01:04:47 PM
1 votes:

Theaetetus: ... Uh, huh. Let's reexamine this for a second:
I asked a woman out... I just didn't find her terribly interesting to talk to on a platonic level.
The fact is, you're creepy, and she picked up on that.


You do realize that there is a distinction between platonic relationships and romantic ones, right?  That they aren't the same?

I have dated dozens of women who I would never consider calling up just to talk or hang out.  Conversely, I have hundreds of people I would consider platonic friends that I would never consider dating.  They're two different kinds of relationships, and a person can, in fact, pique one kind of interest and not the other.

But thanks for proving my point that "creepy" is just the female version of "biatch", an essentially meaningless, demeaning gender-loaded catch-all that is used solely in these impotent attempts to claim unearned power or status in social situations.
2013-02-06 01:03:59 PM
1 votes:

Theaetetus: FirstNationalBastard: Theaetetus: FirstNationalBastard: Theaetetus: udhq: I'll never forget when I was in college, I asked a woman out, and she said "we should just be friends."  Now, I could have said "Ok", and dealt with that as it came, but I owned a van at the time, and so like clockwork, that kind of "friend" always seemed to call up around the end of spring semester, asking if I would help her move.  On top of that, I just didn't find her terribly interesting to talk to on a platonic level.

So, I decided to be honest and soften it to "I appreciate that, but I have not had good luck being friends with women I'm attracted to."  She looked a little taken aback, but she hugged me and we went on our separate ways.  A couple days later this story gets back to me from a friend of a friend with the addendum, "she thought that was totally creepy."

The fact is what I said and did was honest and polite, she didn't get what she wanted out of the situation, and calling me "creepy" was the only way she knew of to blame me for her hard feelings over the situation.  I saw her a couple of times after that, I was cordial as I didn't feel I had anything to be ashamed of, but she was always really awkward and you could tell she was embarrassed every time we saw each other.

... Uh, huh. Let's reexamine this for a second:
I asked a woman out... I just didn't find her terribly interesting to talk to on a platonic level.
The fact is, you're creepy, and she picked up on that.

So, not finding someone interesting to talk to is creepy now?

Does that mean that women who brush guys off are creepy, too?

Amazing how you missed the entire first half of that quote. I'm going to go out on a limb and guess you're creepy too.

And I'm going to guess you're either an entitled broad or a guy white knighting all of womankind.

The fact that you can't or won't bother to tell the difference is enlightening.


Mmm-hmm.

Asked a woman out, didn't really find them interesting to talk to.

Your point?

Maybe the man hoped the date would end in sex. And what, exactly, is wrong with that?

Are you now going to tell me that precious, holy womynkind doesn't go for a good old fashioned booty call every now and then?
2013-02-06 01:01:34 PM
1 votes:

Coelacanth Filet: Men, if you never listen to anything I say ever again, hear this: these feminist articles about the rules of approaching women are made strictly to inhibit men with low sexual market value, because they're the only ones who would even consider taking this advice to heart. The most confident (and therefore desirable) men don't play by the rules.

Don't believe me? Read the erotic fan fiction that women write and see for yourself what turns them on. Sure, they don't want YOU taking their headphones off on the subway, but if George Clooney did that it would result in a vaginal flood of Biblical proportions.


If you can't differentiate between fantasy and reality to the point where you're trying to act out porn with random women, you should seek medical help.
2013-02-06 01:00:16 PM
1 votes:

udhq: I never hung out with those women, I never spoke to them.


You also didn't find this girl interesting to talk to... so why ask her out?
2013-02-06 12:55:10 PM
1 votes:

Theaetetus: FirstNationalBastard: Theaetetus: udhq: I'll never forget when I was in college, I asked a woman out, and she said "we should just be friends."  Now, I could have said "Ok", and dealt with that as it came, but I owned a van at the time, and so like clockwork, that kind of "friend" always seemed to call up around the end of spring semester, asking if I would help her move.  On top of that, I just didn't find her terribly interesting to talk to on a platonic level.

So, I decided to be honest and soften it to "I appreciate that, but I have not had good luck being friends with women I'm attracted to."  She looked a little taken aback, but she hugged me and we went on our separate ways.  A couple days later this story gets back to me from a friend of a friend with the addendum, "she thought that was totally creepy."

The fact is what I said and did was honest and polite, she didn't get what she wanted out of the situation, and calling me "creepy" was the only way she knew of to blame me for her hard feelings over the situation.  I saw her a couple of times after that, I was cordial as I didn't feel I had anything to be ashamed of, but she was always really awkward and you could tell she was embarrassed every time we saw each other.

... Uh, huh. Let's reexamine this for a second:
I asked a woman out... I just didn't find her terribly interesting to talk to on a platonic level.
The fact is, you're creepy, and she picked up on that.

So, not finding someone interesting to talk to is creepy now?

Does that mean that women who brush guys off are creepy, too?

Amazing how you missed the entire first half of that quote. I'm going to go out on a limb and guess you're creepy too.


And I'm going to guess you're either an entitled broad or a guy white knighting all of womankind.
2013-02-06 12:53:34 PM
1 votes:

FirstNationalBastard: Theaetetus: udhq: I'll never forget when I was in college, I asked a woman out, and she said "we should just be friends."  Now, I could have said "Ok", and dealt with that as it came, but I owned a van at the time, and so like clockwork, that kind of "friend" always seemed to call up around the end of spring semester, asking if I would help her move.  On top of that, I just didn't find her terribly interesting to talk to on a platonic level.

So, I decided to be honest and soften it to "I appreciate that, but I have not had good luck being friends with women I'm attracted to."  She looked a little taken aback, but she hugged me and we went on our separate ways.  A couple days later this story gets back to me from a friend of a friend with the addendum, "she thought that was totally creepy."

The fact is what I said and did was honest and polite, she didn't get what she wanted out of the situation, and calling me "creepy" was the only way she knew of to blame me for her hard feelings over the situation.  I saw her a couple of times after that, I was cordial as I didn't feel I had anything to be ashamed of, but she was always really awkward and you could tell she was embarrassed every time we saw each other.

... Uh, huh. Let's reexamine this for a second:
I asked a woman out... I just didn't find her terribly interesting to talk to on a platonic level.
The fact is, you're creepy, and she picked up on that.

So, not finding someone interesting to talk to is creepy now?

Does that mean that women who brush guys off are creepy, too?


Amazing how you missed the entire first half of that quote. I'm going to go out on a limb and guess you're creepy too.
2013-02-06 12:48:21 PM
1 votes:

Theaetetus: udhq: I'll never forget when I was in college, I asked a woman out, and she said "we should just be friends."  Now, I could have said "Ok", and dealt with that as it came, but I owned a van at the time, and so like clockwork, that kind of "friend" always seemed to call up around the end of spring semester, asking if I would help her move.  On top of that, I just didn't find her terribly interesting to talk to on a platonic level.

So, I decided to be honest and soften it to "I appreciate that, but I have not had good luck being friends with women I'm attracted to."  She looked a little taken aback, but she hugged me and we went on our separate ways.  A couple days later this story gets back to me from a friend of a friend with the addendum, "she thought that was totally creepy."

The fact is what I said and did was honest and polite, she didn't get what she wanted out of the situation, and calling me "creepy" was the only way she knew of to blame me for her hard feelings over the situation.  I saw her a couple of times after that, I was cordial as I didn't feel I had anything to be ashamed of, but she was always really awkward and you could tell she was embarrassed every time we saw each other.

... Uh, huh. Let's reexamine this for a second:
I asked a woman out... I just didn't find her terribly interesting to talk to on a platonic level.
The fact is, you're creepy, and she picked up on that.


So, not finding someone interesting to talk to is creepy now?

Does that mean that women who brush guys off are creepy, too?
2013-02-06 12:40:40 PM
1 votes:
gulogulo:
So..why were you friends with someone that only contacted you to help her move that you had no interest in on any other level other than dating? It sounds like you were pretty dishonest with the college friend about "being friends." "

Um, he said he first asked her out, that's a pretty honest indicator that he'd like to be more than friends.
2013-02-06 12:38:59 PM
1 votes:

yapopo: gulogulo: yapopo: if not, then i'm positive i've dated more women than you have. anyway, my advice is not for you. it's for the guys.

True. By volume you may have. But being that you remain constant in this, it is likely that your 'sample size' is neither random nor large enough to draw the conclusion you did.

what do you mean?  you're assuming that my dating experiences have been few/bad?  not sure where you're coming from.


Unless your dating experience is numbering into at least 5 digits, with a distribution across the entire US, then you probably shouldn't be attempting to speak for all women.
2013-02-06 12:33:37 PM
1 votes:

yapopo: if not, then i'm positive i've dated more women than you have. anyway, my advice is not for you. it's for the guys.


True. By volume you may have. But being that you remain constant in this, it is likely that your 'sample size' is neither random nor large enough to draw the conclusion you did.
2013-02-06 12:32:04 PM
1 votes:

udhq: Guys, once you have a good grasp of basic social etiquette, including reading the cues and knowing when to back off, then banish the word "creeper" from your mind.

This word is just over-used and misapplied so much.  Frankly, it tends to be the only tool in a woman's toolbox for ending and/or writing off any social situation in which she was not completely satisfied by the outcome, regardless of whether that had anything to do with your behavior.

I'll never forget when I was in college, I asked a woman out, and she said "we should just be friends."  Now, I could have said "Ok", and dealt with that as it came, but I owned a van at the time, and so like clockwork, that kind of "friend" always seemed to call up around the end of spring semester, asking if I would help her move.  On top of that, I just didn't find her terribly interesting to talk to on a platonic level.

So, I decided to be honest and soften it to "I appreciate that, but I have not had good luck being friends with women I'm attracted to."  She looked a little taken aback, but she hugged me and we went on our separate ways.  A couple days later this story gets back to me from a friend of a friend with the addendum, "she thought that was totally creepy."

The fact is what I said and did was honest and polite, she didn't get what she wanted out of the situation, and calling me "creepy" was the only way she knew of to blame me for her hard feelings over the situation.  I saw her a couple of times after that, I was cordial as I didn't feel I had anything to be ashamed of, but she was always really awkward and you could tell she was embarrassed every time we saw each other.


So..why were you friends with someone that only contacted you to help her move that you had no interest in on any other level other than dating? It sounds like you were pretty dishonest with the college friend about "being friends." You didn't like her personality to begin with hence the "not interesting on a platonic level."
2013-02-06 12:06:14 PM
1 votes:
I just want to throw out a quick anecdote into the whole "Be attractive, don't be unattractive" these threads always have. I'll admit, most of my boyfriends have been very physically attractive men, though their personality needs to be attractive as well.

One of my longer term boyfriends was the most attractive man, still is, I have ever been around... and it has NOTHING to do with his looks. In all honesty, he's physically, well... ugly. 6'4", 170 pounds, prematurely balding ginger, bad under-bite, thick glasses, a never ending stutter, and a bulbous nose that looked like it had been broken six times. But the way he carries himself, who he is, everything about him is unendingly attractive. I mean, goddamn, just beautiful. Even my sisters and girlfriends would comment about how he just attracts you to him like moths to a flame.

There's my CSS, take what you will.
2013-02-06 12:02:57 PM
1 votes:

Theaetetus: nickerj1: CtrlAltDestroy: I've thought about it but I don't have anyone that I can ask. I thought, for a split second, about asking anonymous for a critique but then realized how dangerous that would be. I do want to take some new pictutes soon. But I can't, for the life of me, look good in a picture. My looks are already iffy and this inability to look decent in a photo doesn't help. I might try to overhaul the profiles this weekend.

/Holy hell Fark's new comment system is not phone friendly.

There's your problem.  It is hard to get a girlfriend without female friends, pretty much impossible without any friends at all.  It gives you practice talking to girls.  It makes you more attractive to unknown females because they see you talking to females.  It tells everyone you aren't a creeper.  Female friends increase attractiveness exponentially.  Hot female friends increase attractiveness exponentially cubed.

If you're a hermit, you can change that by joining activity clubs.  Kickball, bocce, any local sporting stuff with young adults.  Volunteering is also huge.  Volunteer at whatever local thing to meet people.  Get off fark and go out and start doing stuff in your spare time to meet people.  Start hanging out with them, girls and guys alike.

Your objective should be: "Find guys and girls to have fun with and be friends with"
By virtue of doing that, you'll eventually come across a girl that's attracted to you.

Yeah, seriously... if you don't have any female friends, then you should completely put plans for dating aside and focus on getting more female friends -  and honestly focus on friends, not trying to date them.Find girls you're absolutely not attracted to, if that helps. Point is, you have to be comfortable and confident and used to talking to women as people, rather than targets.


this is a golden piece of advice.
2013-02-06 11:53:36 AM
1 votes:
As a guy who has recently struck out and expects to be put in the friend zone next time I see her, I'm getting a kick out of this thread.

For once in my life it would be nice if the woman I like and the woman I'm sleeping with were the same person.
2013-02-06 11:47:32 AM
1 votes:

nickerj1: CtrlAltDestroy: I've thought about it but I don't have anyone that I can ask. I thought, for a split second, about asking anonymous for a critique but then realized how dangerous that would be. I do want to take some new pictutes soon. But I can't, for the life of me, look good in a picture. My looks are already iffy and this inability to look decent in a photo doesn't help. I might try to overhaul the profiles this weekend.

/Holy hell Fark's new comment system is not phone friendly.

There's your problem.  It is hard to get a girlfriend without female friends, pretty much impossible without any friends at all.  It gives you practice talking to girls.  It makes you more attractive to unknown females because they see you talking to females.  It tells everyone you aren't a creeper.  Female friends increase attractiveness exponentially.  Hot female friends increase attractiveness exponentially cubed.

If you're a hermit, you can change that by joining activity clubs.  Kickball, bocce, any local sporting stuff with young adults.  Volunteering is also huge.  Volunteer at whatever local thing to meet people.  Get off fark and go out and start doing stuff in your spare time to meet people.  Start hanging out with them, girls and guys alike.

Your objective should be: "Find guys and girls to have fun with and be friends with"
By virtue of doing that, you'll eventually come across a girl that's attracted to you.


Yeah, seriously... if you don't have any female friends, then you should completely put plans for dating aside and focus on getting more female friends -  and honestly focus on friends, not trying to date them.Find girls you're absolutely not attracted to, if that helps. Point is, you have to be comfortable and confident and used to talking to women as people, rather than targets.
2013-02-06 11:34:54 AM
1 votes:

plewis: I'm SOOOOO glad to be married and not have to deal with picky biatches any more. (Now I just have to focus on the one)


Any man who considers his wife to be a "picky biatch", probably isn't happily married.

Seven years of marriage.
Never used that word to describe my wife.
Never will.


...or maybe I read that wrong.
2013-02-06 11:26:38 AM
1 votes:
This just in:  Women can be picky assholes.  Not good at public speaking or talking to strangers?  Creep.  Too respectful but still horny?  Creep.  Broke but otherwise charming?  Creep.  Trying too hard? Creep.  There is no relational fark up that a guy can commit that is not punishable by fire.  I'm SOOOOO  glad to be married and not have to deal with picky biatches any more.  (Now I just have to focus on the one)
2013-02-06 11:09:16 AM
1 votes:

CtrlAltDestroy: I've thought about it but I don't have anyone that I can ask. I thought, for a split second, about asking anonymous for a critique but then realized how dangerous that would be. I do want to take some new pictutes soon. But I can't, for the life of me, look good in a picture. My looks are already iffy and this inability to look decent in a photo doesn't help. I might try to overhaul the profiles this weekend.


If you want to have me have a peek at it, I'd be happy to. EIP.
2013-02-06 11:01:32 AM
1 votes:

Repo Man: SkunkWerks: Smackledorfer: women respond well to physically attractive, and poorly to ugly. Denying that is lying.

'Attractive' and 'Ugly' are subjective concepts.

I lie because I have different experiences than you, and I experience them differently.  Big shocker, I know.

Not completely. Find someone who would think John Merrick was attractive. Large surveys of humans show that there is a peak of the bell curve for what most of us find physically attractive. In the sense of aesthetics

My best friend has a crush on Tatum Channing. I think he's a butter face. I have a crush on Ryan Gosling. My friend thinks he's wonky eye and calls him "Male Paris". Taste is subjective and I highly doubt you look like John Merrick.
2013-02-06 10:59:30 AM
1 votes:
www.behindthevoiceactors.com

Fark...I am disappoint
2013-02-06 10:54:41 AM
1 votes:

CtrlAltDestroy: gulogulo: Yeah, it can be really tough. I think, too, I tend to be a little bit more extroverted than it sounds like you are, so I have lots of friends that I go out with, and when I'm out with them is when I meet those rare individuals.

I am pretty introverted, but not to the point where I'm totally screwed up socially because of it. I can get into an extroverted mood at times. Sometimes I'm in the mood for human interaction. Sometimes I need to be alone to recharge. My brother is more extroverted than I am, yet (as his girlfriend pointed out) I'm better/more easy going/more open socially than he is. I prefer smaller groups of known people to large groups of strangers. At best, I enjoy talking to others. At worst, I can fake it for an evening. I tend to think of myself as a "functional geek". When I was in customer service hell I was always one of the better employees. Nowadays I'm making a living working with my hands in a job that's a mix of an IT and mechanic role.

I'm not afraid of people and I'm talented with my hands. I'm not the stereotypical geek, even though I enjoy many of the stereotypical geek things.

gulogulo: However, for someone like you and I who are stimulated by interests and thoughts first, I might recommend trying something like OKCupid.

I'm in the SW burbs. I have an account on OKC and PoF. OKC is much better. The accounts have been open for about 3/4 of a year now. There's a fair amount of information about myself. There's enough to get a feel for who I am while leaving something to talk about in person. There's also recent and straightforward (no myspace angles) photos.

So far I've had some luck with one girl. We conversations over the messenger and texted a few times. She eventually asks what intentions I had just to make sure that I wasn't leading her on (IE was actually interested in dating). Then later she tells me that she's about to move 4 hours away for college, which she knew all along. WTF? Anyway, I say that we should meet at l ...


Two pieces of advice for online dating:
1.  OKC wrote a blog on the best way to write a dating profile to get responses.  In general, you want to give specific examples and elaborate on them, rather than just list a bunch of stuff.
So for like "What would you like to do with your life?"
Do not say: "I want to travel."
Say: "I'd like to go to europe soon, I always wanted to visit Salzburg austria and watch a mozart opera".

This does two things. One, it makes you stand out and gives you somewhat of a personality.  And two, it gives them more information that they can find common ground in (maybe they like opera too).

2. Get 2-3 female friends to independently review the profile and tell you what to change.  Preferably not someone like a sister or really close, but someone you're good enough friends with that will tell you what's wrong with it.
2013-02-06 10:41:05 AM
1 votes:

The sound of one hand clapping: Dating sites are OK, but honestly, I've found that people are way, way more superficial on a dating site than they are in real life. I think it's because they don't have the personality to go off, so they tend to just go off looks rather than reading the profile and seeing if the person seems interesting.


It's not even that. You can't interact with a profile: you can't ask it questions, you can't bounce jokes or references off of it, and you can't watch it interact with others. It's really a very limited tool for making first impressions. People are more superficial on dating sites because they have to be: they don't have the tools they need to be anything else.

You need to keep this in mind, and consider whether you can make a better first impression online or in person. Do not use dating sites if you can make a better first impression without them.
2013-02-06 10:33:35 AM
1 votes:

freeforever: You are the reason the pickup artist community exists...and thrives.  Being a pickup artist is ALL ABOUT "stimulating the mind," regardless of what feminists would have you believe.  It's not about cheesy pickup lines, rude insults and trying to score on the first date.  A pickup artist is someone who uses his resources to make himself the most attractive he can be.  That you assume to know what kind of relationship pickup artists want proves you don't know ...


I'm just going to have to call B.S. on this, sorry.

At least, if the PUA websites accurately reflect the "pickup artist community," as you call it.
2013-02-06 10:21:50 AM
1 votes:

fredklein: Theaetetus: fredklein: ciberido: The rule of not being a creep is, Don't come onto a woman in a way that bothers her; don't express attraction to a woman who doesn't want your attention. So, yes, all other things being equal, it's possible that Bob the Super-Handsome can do some "X" that will not come off as creepy to most women where Tim the Ugly Duckling will come off as creepy to the same women for the same "X."

You can say that makes women shallow if you like, but it doesn't change the basic fact that Tim SHOULD NOT DO "X."

But he sees 'X' working- after all, Bob did it and got laid.

Gosh, if only there was some distinction, some sort of text-but-not-text, like a con-text, that could make something okay in one situation and not okay in another...

No two situations are EXACTLY alike. Therefore, a solution that works for one situation would never work, and should never, ever be attempted in a different, but similar situation. Got it.


I had sex with my wife. It was great. I'm going to have sex with your wife. If she has any questions, I'll just show her this thread as your tacit approval.
2013-02-06 10:09:39 AM
1 votes:

CtrlAltDestroy: Anyway, yeah. I haven't had any luck so far. The messages I sent to others have never garnered a response and I've only been contacted by 1 person who seemed interesting. There were a couple of other messages I received. 1 lead to nothing and the other was a 1 line "hi wanna chat" from an empty profile.

I've thought about said profiles recently. I need to rework them. There's good info, but it seems too boring. I need to get more of my sense of humor in there and make it less matter-of-fact.


Dating sites are OK, but honestly, I've found that people are way, way more superficial on a dating site than they are in real life.  I think it's because they don't have the personality to go off, so they tend to just go off looks rather than reading the profile and seeing if the person seems interesting.

Case in point.  I had profiles on OKC, POF and I've since moved to Match.com.  The OKC and POF profiles were up for 2 months before I got rid of them, the Match.com one about 1 month to date.  To begin with I got only 1 reply despite sending messages to over 40 women in my area.  Eventually I got really fed up and talked to a girl I know about it.  She asked to look at my profile and said 'it's your picture'.  I thought the pic was OK but she said it didn't make me look good.  She helped me take some more pics and I let her choose which one I'd use.  And I'll be damned it worked!  I got 2 responses after messaging 15 women and a third woman even contacted me directly.

You'll always have more luck in real life if you can charm someone because they will overlook your appearance.  On a dating site most will just see if they like how you look.  I'm sure guys do the same so I'm not trying to get at women here, just stating my experience.
2013-02-06 10:00:29 AM
1 votes:

fredklein: ciberido: The rule of not being a creep is, Don't come onto a woman in a way that bothers her; don't express attraction to a woman who doesn't want your attention. So, yes, all other things being equal, it's possible that Bob the Super-Handsome can do some "X" that will not come off as creepy to most women where Tim the Ugly Duckling will come off as creepy to the same women for the same "X."

You can say that makes women shallow if you like, but it doesn't change the basic fact that Tim SHOULD NOT DO "X."

But he sees 'X' working- after all, Bob did it and got laid.


Gosh, if only there was some distinction, some sort of text-but-not-text, like a con-text, that could make something okay in one situation and not okay in another...
2013-02-06 09:55:45 AM
1 votes:

Tommy Moo: You and many other people share a misunderstanding of PUA game. Any guy who throws a shiat fit if a girl doesn't immediately show attraction to him is doing it wrong and will be ostracized/corrected by the community. There are all kinds of rules taught by the masters regarding the following principles...


Masters, rules, ostracizing by the community... That doesn't sound  anything like a cult.
2013-02-06 09:30:57 AM
1 votes:

The sound of one hand clapping: Yep, the whole 'Don't be unattractive' rule is true a lot of the time.  Women can deny it but I've seen it in action so many times.  I have a ridiculously good looking friend who can get away with anything and the women love the attention.  Yet a awkward, below average looking guy I know is called a creep just for talking to them for more than a few minutes.


The rule of not being a creep is, Don't come onto a woman in a way that bothers her; don't express attraction to a woman who doesn't want your attention.  So, yes, all other things being equal, it's possible that Bob the Super-Handsome can do some "X" that will not come off as creepy to most women where Tim the Ugly Duckling will come off as creepy to the same women for the same "X."

You can say that makes women shallow if you like, but it doesn't change the basic fact that Tim SHOULD NOT DO "X."

It's rather like if a cop pulls you over for driving 85 mph in a 55-mph zone and you argue, "B-b-but the other guy in the green car was doing 90!  Go arrest him!"
2013-02-06 09:23:26 AM
1 votes:

Tommy Moo: Explain the 50 Shades of Grey phenomenon then.


Simple.  What a person enjoys reading about has no relationship whatsoever with what they would like to happen to them in real life.  I like reading books by Stephen King, for example.  That doesn't that mean I want all of my family and friends to die of Captain Tripps while I trek to Boulder, Colorado.

Tommy Moo:   I stand behind my assessment. Anyway, life is constantly proving me right. Think what you will.

Translation: "I am arrogant enough to believe that life is constantly proving me right, and I will not listen to anything you say, so you might as well put me on your ignore list. "
2013-02-06 09:13:05 AM
1 votes:

CtrlAltDestroy: Heh. I love when that actually happens. I just can't seem to find anyone which to have such a conversation with. I which I knew where to find people with mutual interests. The Chicago-land area isn't exactly bum-fark fly-over country, but I rarely meet kindred spirits.


Yeah, it can be really tough. I think, too, I tend to be a little bit more extroverted than it sounds like you are, so I have lots of friends that I go out with, and when I'm out with them is when I meet those rare individuals.

However, for someone like you and I who are stimulated by interests and thoughts first, I might recommend trying something like OKCupid. That's where I met my current boyfriend when I moved to a new town and had no friends yet.  When we met, there was no overt romantic gestures, but too nerds just gushing about the things we love.  It's been really good and honestly, one of the easiest relationships I've ever had.  He's not the hottest thing on two legs, but I'm sure glad I've taken the time to get to know him, and each time we spend time together my attraction to him grows.

This isn't a 'one size fits all' sort of deal. What works for you, what works for me, what works for Tommy, and the girls he wants may never be the same. Just be willing to try lots of different things.
2013-02-06 09:06:37 AM
1 votes:

gulogulo: Speaking as a smart girl, I don't like to be hit on. I REALLY love having conversations about mutual interests and compelling topics. It's usually when I'm having one of those conversations that I suddenly find myself immensely attracted to a person.


Heh. I love when that actually happens. I just can't seem to find anyone which to have such a conversation with. I which I knew where to find people with mutual interests. The Chicago-land area isn't exactly bum-fark fly-over country, but I rarely meet kindred spirits.

alwaysjaded: If you have the ability to look at yourself honestly and with a critical eye, read The Manual by W. Anton. Helped me quite a bit. It's not a "gifts + body language + mind games= sex" type book, more of a breakdown of your behaviors.


Eh, I'll peek at it next time I'm in a bookstore. Even if it's nonsense it might be an interesting read in the sense of seeing things through another's perspective and/or as an indirect form of people watching/viewing the "human condition".
2013-02-06 08:53:35 AM
1 votes:

Lernaeus: thisiszombocom: BMFPitt: When I was a hopeless single guy, I always hated when people said, "Be confident" as if it were some kind of useful advice.

That's kind of like a track coach saying, "Run faster."

just be yourself.  you know, act natural

Unless you're weird.

If so, then stop being weird and be normal, but "yourself normal," and be confident about it.

But not creepy confident; regular, normal confident you.

But more stylish and charming. And taller. And get your teeth fixed. Do some situps. Get a new haircut. Replace those shoes. Stop talking about bands all the time. Redecorate. And a new car wouldn't hurt, either.


Don't forget a job where you make enough that you can afford to spend lavishly on her.
2013-02-06 08:52:18 AM
1 votes:

thisiszombocom: BMFPitt: When I was a hopeless single guy, I always hated when people said, "Be confident" as if it were some kind of useful advice.

That's kind of like a track coach saying, "Run faster."

just be yourself.  you know, act natural


Unless you're weird.

If so, then stop being weird and be normal, but "yourself normal," and be confident about it.

But not creepy confident; regular, normal confident you.

But more stylish and charming. And taller. And get your teeth fixed. Do some situps. Get a new haircut. Replace those shoes. Stop talking about bands all the time. Redecorate. And a new car wouldn't hurt, either.
2013-02-06 08:29:08 AM
1 votes:
I assume the every woman I meet already has a boyfriend, and flirting would be a waste of her time and mine.
2013-02-06 08:28:57 AM
1 votes:

taurusowner: Pretty much the most important thing that's been said in this thread. There have been a number of women in this thread who say "don't do ___" or "don't hit on people in retail/bartenders/etc". But the FACT is that if the guy was hot/rich/tall/buff enough, every single on of those women would break these rules. Females bartenders DO give out their real numbers to guys.....hot guys. Same with strippers, waitresses, that cute chick at Kohls, whatever. But no guy will know if he's the one she'll break the "rule" for until he tries.


Yea I don't know why those stupid b*tches don't bang you. God they're so dumb right? B*tches.
2013-02-06 08:12:43 AM
1 votes:

Tat'dGreaser: tinfoil-hat maggie: Zoinks ; ) And I don't even have a cool mystery van wait that could sound weird ; )

Well if women call it a Rape Van then it's cute and saucy, so go for it.


Hey you are talking to a girl that own a VW camper van way back in the day and no one got raped ; )
2013-02-06 07:59:12 AM
1 votes:

tinfoil-hat maggie: jack21221: CSB time:

I was once treated as if I was being a creeper at a bar. The ESPN show Sport Science was on, and they were talking about some physics concepts as it applied to gymnastics. There was a group of 3 sitting next to me, a guy and then two women. The woman 2 seats from me said that this would be a great thing to show in the classroom. At the time, I was working as a physics tutor and had just completed my physics degree. I overheard her conversation, turned and asked her if she was a science teacher. She responded no, she teaches English, so I apologized for overhearing, and explained that I was a physics tutor and that I agreed with her. Her guy friend started talking to me about some pop sci physics concept, which I was happy to do, but when our little side discussion finished, the two women had slid a few seats down, around the corner of the bar table.

Maybe they thought I was being creepy or hitting on them. In reality, I just wanted to talk about science, which was what she just commented on on the television. I didn't think I was that out of line talking to somebody at a bar. I thought that's what people did at bars. I wasn't hitting on her at the least.

Oh well.

Heh, no. Try this guy attaches himself to two girls that walk into a bar, second dude end up engaging in conversation with first dude, girls make escape. Sorry just my 2 cents(not valid in Canada)


Yeah, I like that explanation better. I've been there. You know, sometimes when I'm out with my girlfriends I'm really out with them to talk with them. It may be something important we were going to hash out over a beer. I don't want to be hit on at that point, but the guy could be a really nice guy.
2013-02-06 07:55:28 AM
1 votes:

jack21221: CSB time:

I was once treated as if I was being a creeper at a bar. The ESPN show Sport Science was on, and they were talking about some physics concepts as it applied to gymnastics. There was a group of 3 sitting next to me, a guy and then two women. The woman 2 seats from me said that this would be a great thing to show in the classroom. At the time, I was working as a physics tutor and had just completed my physics degree. I overheard her conversation, turned and asked her if she was a science teacher. She responded no, she teaches English, so I apologized for overhearing, and explained that I was a physics tutor and that I agreed with her. Her guy friend started talking to me about some pop sci physics concept, which I was happy to do, but when our little side discussion finished, the two women had slid a few seats down, around the corner of the bar table.

Maybe they thought I was being creepy or hitting on them. In reality, I just wanted to talk about science, which was what she just commented on on the television. I didn't think I was that out of line talking to somebody at a bar. I thought that's what people did at bars. I wasn't hitting on her at the least.

Oh well.


Heh, no. Try this guy attaches himself to two girls that walk into a bar, second dude end up engaging in conversation with first dude, girls make escape. Sorry just my 2 cents(not valid in Canada)
2013-02-06 07:37:08 AM
1 votes:

Tommy Moo: Some of them are like that, but it's honestly a diverse crowd with different goals and strategies. You'll find a few clowns who are just trying to burn through as many women as they can to impress their guy friends, but you'll also find a lot of genuine guy

s...

Tommy Moo: I've dated dozens of the most beautiful women in my city. I'm clearly doing something right, brother.


Yup, sounds about right.
2013-02-06 07:14:08 AM
1 votes:

freeforever: You are the reason the pickup artist community exists...and thrives. Being a pickup artist is ALL ABOUT "stimulating the mind," regardless of what feminists would have you believe. It's not about cheesy pickup lines, rude insults and trying to score on the first date. A pickup artist is someone who uses his resources to make himself the most attractive he can be. That you assume to know what kind of relationship pickup artists want proves you don't know anything about them.


I guess my only experience with it is the stupid tv show that highlighted it. I guess I assumed that being a Pick Up Artist means you actually repeatedly use your craft, even after you have established a relationship with one person.  So the very nature of how the "craft" is talked about makes it look like someone who is looking for serial relationships than establishing a serious relationship long term with one person.
2013-02-06 07:06:53 AM
1 votes:
Was on the subway last week at witnessed a poor girl get hit on. She definitely looked like she didn't want to be bothered: headphones on, bag on her lap, sleepy-eyed. This guy and his friend get on and sit next to her. The guy asks her something (I didn't hear, I had my headphones on as well), she shakes her head and says "I'm good." He then pulls out an open bag of candy from his pocket and offers it to her. Again, she shakes her head and says "I'm good." His friend was laughing to himself.

Really offering candy to a stranger? That's your pick-up?
2013-02-06 07:00:37 AM
1 votes:

Dogsbody: Call me old fashioned but... How about a polite introduction, ask them their name while holding the gaze and the hand slightly longer than usual, but not so long as to be creepy. Engage in a conversation about interests (besides work or boyfriends, etc.). Invite the person on your yacht over the weekend. It also helps if there's another couple or two there with you to vouch that they will be on the boat as well. It doesn't always work for me, but I find it's a decent non-creepy approach. Having a yacht helps.


No actually that's kinda creepy and I've heard how that boat story ends : )
2013-02-06 06:58:09 AM
1 votes:

breadprincess: tinfoil-hat maggie: Genevieve Marie: Bathysphere: As someone who works retail, I am getting a kick out of this thread. We are like sitting ducks for creeper men, especially since we are forced to act as friendly as possible and weirdos misinterperet that.

I used to bartend. Same thing.

This and this. waited tables and worked retail it's is amazing the things some people do and say in those situations, not to mention the calls after they left while you're still working and you have no clue who they are cause you've just had 500 people go through you're restaurant.

Ugh, retail. I once had an older gentleman come up to my cash register at a big box office supply store, look me straight in the eye, and tell me he was going to have my children one day. He had a nasty habit of doing that to all of the young female workers at that store, and basically had to be escorted out by management whenever he came in.

The creepiest pickup lines I've had thrown my way:
1) "You are too pretty to be lesbian!" by some random creep at a club, accompanied by a squeeze to my butt and boobs. I had been dancing with a gay male friend of mine to fend off guys at another friend's birthday party, had turned down the creep, and then he had his friend grab me and pull me away from my friend because "no" was not a strong enough indicator that I wasn't interested.
2) "Well, I'd like to donate an organ to YOU sometime" by an objectively attractive and still very creepy cashier at a party store after seeing I was an organ donor on my license.
3) "Take a look at your future, my sweet love" by some dude on the street in Brooklyn, who grabbed me on the butt in broad daylight on a busy street, while I had my arms linked with my sister, and leaned into my ear to whisper this.

/css
//being gay I have met my fair share of creeper ladies as well, but they are vastly outnumbered by the creeper guys
///had much less of a problem with this in college when I ran with a pack of metalhead dudes, if any creeps ...


Defiantly CSS reminds me of my own upbringing first girl I lived with was when I was 18 had a lot of cousins that were metalheads/gearheads and such and stopped a lot of problems before they started in that small southern town, granted I was a bit worried when we broke up but it ended well enough.

And you're right men and women can say uncouth/inappropriate things or act inappropriately but the real thing is when I guy does it you're not sure if there is the potential for violence. I mean I never left the restaurant alone late at night.
2013-02-06 06:50:44 AM
1 votes:
As a woman, here's my problem with any advice articles like this and PUA. It's so painfully obvious, and shouldn't need to be said, that women and men are individuals and what is sound advice for one, does not work for another.

I'm a nerdy girl. I 'm pretty extroverted and have been told I'm not a complete uggo.  I don't ever want to sleep with any guy I've met on the first date. I'm not a prude, I have no personal problem with anyone who wants to fark on the first date, it's just my sexual attraction doesn't really kick in until they start stimulating my mind and that can take a couple of dates.  So I'm not going to know right away how much I like you, but I'm also not looking for a one night stand.  It might not work out, and it also might.  I also have a finely tuned PUA bullshiat meter.  So people like the PUA above in this thread would pretty much be instantly rejected. I'm not bashing him, though, he obviously wants a certain kind of relationship for which I'm not suited. If you aren't looking for long term, then that probably works great.

Incidentally, I haven't read 50 Shades of Gray and to equate porn (which is all it is) as being indicative of reality of all women's tastes in men is ludicrous.  Any more than I can assume what's on Red Tube is indicative of what all men want in women. There just isn't as much variety in porn specifically aimed at women, and it's arguably more difficult to construct as it has to usually be of written word, so it makes a bigger splash when it hits the public.
2013-02-06 06:40:06 AM
1 votes:

Serious Post on Serious Thread: gulogulo: Serious Post on Serious Thread: Talk about lazy logic. Are you really that dense you don't even know that the meaning of the words you are writing down are diametrically opposed to very point you are trying to make?? REALLY??

"In the end" means, you engaged these 'creeps' in some way, you talked to them, got to know them well enough to make at least a partially informed decision. The ONLY reason you got to that point is b/c you found them ATTRACTIVE. If they were UNATTRACTIVE you would have no idea if they were 'creepy' or not.

Please read a little closer next time: that isn't what I was arguing.  I realize nuances might be lost on someone who sees only dichotomous situations. I explicitly countering the notion that the ONLY THING that makes a person a creeper is them being unattractive. I already acknowledged that attractiveness can factor into things for some people.

I'll read closer if you will. I know what you were saying. It's just that nobody is arguing that. Obviously once you get to know someone you can judge if they are creepy.  The criticism of the article is that if you find someone unattractive you're more likely to impute creepiness to actions you would not mpute to an 'attractive' person. Your point is valid, just, er, pointless in terms of this article.


Yes, people have been arguing that. It's been said in this very thread and if that were the criticism, it was ineloquently stated at best. Or are you proposing we only can talk strictly in terms of the article now and not comment on what's said in the thread? Since when?
2013-02-06 06:35:06 AM
1 votes:
You can be creepy for being unattractive, you can be creepy for your behaviour, you can be creepy because the other person just isn't feeling it. Either way its not going to happen with that person so move the heck on with your life, plenty of people to meet out there.

Woman or man, doesn't matter, the ability to be creepy transcends genders. Doesn't make the man an asshole, doesn't make the woman a biatch, doesn't really matter in the long run or deserve much thought. I you're comfortable with who you are just move on.
2013-02-06 06:33:04 AM
1 votes:

Serious Post on Serious Thread: Talk about lazy logic. Are you really that dense you don't even know that the meaning of the words you are writing down are diametrically opposed to very point you are trying to make?? REALLY??

"In the end" means, you engaged these 'creeps' in some way, you talked to them, got to know them well enough to make at least a partially informed decision. The ONLY reason you got to that point is b/c you found them ATTRACTIVE. If they were UNATTRACTIVE you would have no idea if they were 'creepy' or not.


Please read a little closer next time: that isn't what I was arguing.  I realize nuances might be lost on someone who sees only dichotomous situations. I explicitly countering the notion that the ONLY THING that makes a person a creeper is them being unattractive. I already acknowledged that attractiveness can factor into things for some people.
2013-02-06 04:54:58 AM
1 votes:

gunther_bumpass: untaken_name: astoreth: Yep. Imagine a gal who has all of your interests and is a blast to hang out with, but you have no attraction to her. Zero. Zip.

Ok, so how do I ever find out that she has all of my interests and is a blast to hang out with, again?


By treating her like a human being instead of a potential lay.


If I wanted to interact with a human being, I'd talk to a man.
2013-02-06 04:20:33 AM
1 votes:
tinfoil-hat maggie
Tavernknight:

What worked for me was to go to the bar alone with a book. Sit at the bar and order a drink. Then completely ignore everything going on around you and read the book. They will come to you and ask about the book. Great ice breaker.

That would probably work with me ; )


The article clearly explains that the book is a signal that he wants to be left alone, you unrespectful creeperette!
2013-02-06 03:36:49 AM
1 votes:

Yogimus: miss diminutive: Yogimus: miss diminutive: Yogimus: Throw jizz in her face and yell: "I CAN SMELL YOUR CUNNNT!"

You know what you look like to me...

Oh you poor sweetie, you must think you're still attractive enough for that to matter.

You see a lot, Yogimus. But are you strong enough to point that high-powered perception at yourself? What about it? Why don't you - why don't you look at yourself and write down what you see? Or maybe you're afraid to.

I am a divorced sociopath that gets more pleasure out of masturbation than a long term relationship. I treat people as replaceable drones, and only have 2 or 3 people I can talk to.  I numb the emptiness in me with power, and take more pleasure than I should in the shortcomings of others. In this, I feel no guilt.  I am also an UNCANNY user and manipulator of people, and I know you.  I know you VERY well.


cdn.inquisitr.com
2013-02-06 03:31:29 AM
1 votes:
Legalized prostitution would solve stupid matters like this.
2013-02-06 03:13:25 AM
1 votes:
"Granted, approaching someone on the street is tricky. Chances are that you'll be shot down, so be prepared for that "

yeah, right, I am ME.  I havent been shot down on the street in 16 years.  I am apparently unshootdownable.

of course I've been married 16 years, but nonetheless...

I am always a bit wary of a woman giving guys advice about what works to pick them up.  Guys tend to know what works better than women do.  What women dont get is that if you reject a man, he doesent CARE if you think he is creepy.   Most (not all) women would lay down rules for guys that would be in stark contrast to the way they were approached by the love of their life.  "dont approach if she is looking at her phone."  Seriously?  I fall in love at first sight with a girl and I am supposed to not at least acknowledge her existance?    If you offend them or scare them, sure, get the hell away, but ... you never know unless you approach them.
2013-02-06 03:09:37 AM
1 votes:
Yogimus: I AM SO HARDCORE
2013-02-06 03:00:14 AM
1 votes:

Yogimus: miss diminutive: Yogimus: Throw jizz in her face and yell: "I CAN SMELL YOUR CUNNNT!"

You know what you look like to me...

Oh you poor sweetie, you must think you're still attractive enough for that to matter.


You see a lot, Yogimus. But are you strong enough to point that high-powered perception at yourself? What about it? Why don't you - why don't you look at yourself and write down what you see? Or maybe you're afraid to.
2013-02-06 02:59:27 AM
1 votes:

Coelacanth Filet: ciberido: [imgs.xkcd.com image 540x931]
There's an xkcd for everything.  It's like rule 34, only with less nudity.

/Though then again, maybe EVERYBODY in xkcd is nude.

Xkcd completely whiffed on understanding the art of the neg in that strip. A neg isn't a blatant insult, that would be pickup suicide. It's a statement that can be interpreted several different ways - the intent is to keep the girl thinking "What did he mean by that?"

PUA is social nihilism, sure, but it works. Hate the game, not the player, etc.


True.  The woman isn't negging the man.  It would be a different, possibly better, strip if she did.

And I'm quite capable of hating both the game AND the players, I assure you.
2013-02-06 02:52:37 AM
1 votes:

miss diminutive: browntimmy: That is good advice. But on the flip side, how about making the mating signal something a little more overt than "playing with hair" or "facing him with her whole body". Recently there was a girl I really liked who was naturally a very friendly and outgoing person to everyone, so the mental games of "Was that playful shove flirting or friendly? etc." drove me nuts.

Chances are she knows it drives men nuts and loves that fact.


That's very possible. I tried to retaliate with the whole "Don't seem toooo interested, they like a challenge" thing, but I might have taken that too far. I have no idea if the effect was: 1. Nothing, since she didn't like me that way or 2. She came to the conclusion that I didn't like her that way.
This is all such farking nonsense when you step back and look at it.
2013-02-06 02:50:55 AM
1 votes:
Linking to Jezebel will only produce more misogynists, even among women.
2013-02-06 02:37:19 AM
1 votes:

Duck_of_Doom: Tommy Moo: Ok, here's a tip: Initiate the conversation, but don't initiate the "move" until she is giving you signals of attraction. Just talk neutrally about the environment or something she's holding or whatever. Then start talking about her and yourself. Find an excuse to bring up a few interesting things about yourself that convey that you have friends, interesting hobbies, ex-girlfriends (TRUST ME ON THIS! It's like an automatic "Ok. He's safe. Another woman dated him." switch.) Then look for the following: Is she facing you with her entire body instead of over her shoulder? If you drop the conversation, does she restart it? Does she touch any part of her face or hair more than once while listening to you? Does she tip her head forward while listening? Does she smile when you say something that isn't funny?

Let's shorten that to: Do not make sexual advances unless you are given the mating signal.

Sound better?  Maybe even make it a rule, or commandment.


That is good advice. But on the flip side, how about making the mating signal something a little more overt than "playing with hair" or "facing him with her whole body". Recently there was a girl I really liked who was naturally a very friendly and outgoing person to everyone, so the mental games of "Was that playful shove flirting or friendly? etc." drove me nuts.
2013-02-06 02:35:54 AM
1 votes:

phalamir: AccuJack: If you think being seen as a "creeper" is bad, try being repeatedly friend zoned shortly after "hello".

Rejection is bad, being perceived as ruining a potential great friendship by wanting to actually *date* when that's what you had in mind from the start is really, really hard.

Seriously, I'm going to start acting like more of an asshole if it'll at least keep me from looking like someone who'd be a "really good friend".

Well there's your problem.  Quit acting like it is a competition or unlocking an achievement,  If you are talking to women just to get your rocks off, it will be nothing but frustration.  Approach interactions with women as trying to form friendships just like you would with men.  There is nothing stopping you from wanting to fark them, but you just need to accept that most are not going to fark you.  And don't treat the friendships as dependent on the farking.  You will increase your friends, get a much better sense of what women want, and eventually one or more will fark you.  Focus on the human interactions, and the farking will come (so to speak).  I have many more female friends as male ones, I have one that farks me in a legally-recognized union, and while I made several of those friendships hoping for non-legally-recognized-union-farking (all before the LRUF), I really don't care about that anymore when dealing with them (though this does not mean I do not leer ^_^ ).

Oh, and God's sake realize that asking her about her interests is the price you pay for telling her about your Grey Knight Terminators.  Oh, and if she talks about Grey Knight Terminators, too, find another set of topics to discuss, because if you obsess over a common geekoid interest, somebody is going to end up in a woodchipper, and it is 50/50 that it will be you.


Quit pretending that it means more than unlocking an achievement.
2013-02-06 02:33:23 AM
1 votes:
Let's be honest here... women are some creepy farks.
2013-02-06 02:32:25 AM
1 votes:

bingethinker: It's also hilarious that women complain about men trying to learn better techniques to meet women, when women's magazines are full of articles that are not only about how to get men, but how to coldly manipulate them to get what you want.


There's nothing wrong with both genders seeking out guidance for how best to attain their goals in their social and love lives. This whole thing works better when you don't view love as a war between the sexes. Yeah, in the back of my mind, I acknowledge that there are conflicting mass interests, in that women want other women to get fat so the best men get stuck with them, and the top 1% of men want to crush and steal from all other men, which hurts most women. But I try to keep that functional knowledge buried beneath a practical spirit of cooperation.

Or at least I used to. It's been a shiatty year for me, so I haven't really been focused on dating lately. I need to get back into my positive groove I had going.
2013-02-06 02:26:32 AM
1 votes:
CSB:

Knew a girl for a year. She'd often send me pictures of herself naked. Yet, everytime I'd ask her to spend the night, she called me a creeper.

The hell?
2013-02-06 02:24:44 AM
1 votes:

bingethinker: It's also hilarious that women complain about men trying to learn better techniques to meet women, when women's magazines are full of articles that are not only about how to get men, but how to coldly manipulate them to get what you want.


For what it's worth, I think those articles in women's magazines are pretty creepy and weird and gross too.
2013-02-06 02:21:48 AM
1 votes:

Dion Fortune: Actually... the best advice that never sinks in for most guys is to stop taking advice from women.  Everyone knows advice from women about how to attract women sucks.  This "Don't be aggressive, pick apart the subtle nuances in her body language" advice is a load of garbage.  This kind of advice is just a sh**t test: you fail by paying any mind to it.  The real way to pick up women is to have confidence, and to be persistent -  When one chick turns you down, just let it roll off your back and move on to the next one.  A man carrying himself with the attitude that his normal healthy desire to interact with a person in his vicinity is something scary and gross, worrying about whether women think he is a "creeper" - that is the COMPLETE OPPOSITE of what heterosexual women generally find attractive.

So then the question becomes... how does a man find the confidence to behave in this way?  Well, that depends on individual circumstances, there's no quick fix, it might be a long journey.  Seeing a therapist would probably be a good first step.


Great post. The confidence only comes with success. Eventually you have nothing left to prove to yourself. In my 20s I wanted desperately to be approved of. Today, most women are nice enough people, but I've seen enough of them naked. I'm looking for a friend that's great in bed. So 9 out of 10 women I just genuinely don't want to fark. At least not at first. A few of them surprise me as I get to know them. But it's funny... When you don't want to fark a woman, it increases the likelihood that she will have attraction for you. It's like this itch at first, when you aren't getting any, but then it snowballs from there.
2013-02-06 02:21:06 AM
1 votes:

feffer: Seth'n'Spectrum: Some farker once said in a thread that the best way to get women to talk to you at a bar is to audibly mutter, "That dress with those shoes?" as they walk by.

/I have not tried this yet
//still working on the basic flirtation techniques

I would think you were 1) gay and an asshole or 2) negging me and thus a PUA asshole.


imgs.xkcd.com
There's an xkcd for everything.  It's like rule 34, only with less nudity.

/Though then again, maybe EVERYBODY in xkcd is nude.
2013-02-06 02:09:09 AM
1 votes:
Genevieve Marie: (post too long to quote)

So you told him "no" once, ONCE, and you were already creeped out.  He checked one more time after the rejection, you told him no again and he threw a childish tantrum but then left you alone.  Yes?

Until the childish tantrum, everything he did was "Chasing Amy"-style romantic that I see in a hojillion chick-flick romance storiesThe only difference is he didn't psychically read the future and/or your mind and tell that "I'm busy" meant "fark off you're unattractive" instead of "I'm playing hard-to-get or actually farking busy, maybe later."

After the childish tantrum?  Well clearly he's a childish asshole, congratulations on dodging that bullet; but you can't claim you knew that anymore than he could have known, until you gave a straight answer, that you weren't interested and never would be.  He was, up until then, just trying, like men are constantly, endlessly told (By women!) they are supposed to in order to be "proper" and desirable men.
2013-02-06 02:07:46 AM
1 votes:
I'm not bad looking, I'm just crushingly awkward and shy. Makes meeting girls very hard. And I have a very hard time telling when a girl is craving my wave.

/Still remember the last day of high school when a classmate said "Yeah, like half the girls in school had a crush on you."
//Responded with "Wait, whaaaaaa? They did? WHY DIDN'T YOU TELL ME THIS BEFORE WHEN I COULD HAVE USED THAT INFORMATION?!"
2013-02-06 02:04:05 AM
1 votes:
FTFA:  I once had a man on the Q train refuse to break eye contact with me as he ate an entire rotisserie chicken with his mittens on.


I laughed way too hard at this.
2013-02-06 02:03:21 AM
1 votes:

astoreth: Genevieve Marie: AccuJack: If you think being seen as a "creeper" is bad, try being repeatedly friend zoned shortly after "hello".

Rejection is bad, being perceived as ruining a potential great friendship by wanting to actually *date* when that's what you had in mind from the start is really, really hard.

Seriously, I'm going to start acting like more of an asshole if it'll at least keep me from looking like someone who'd be a "really good friend".

The friend zone is not a thing. If you end up there, it's because the object of your affection thinks you are a nice person and enjoys your company but does not envision the two of you getting naked together. That's not the end of the world. At some point, you will find someone that DOES think it would be fun to get naked with you.

Yep. Imagine a gal who has all of your interests and is a blast to hang out with, but you have no attraction to her. Zero. Zip. But she's into you! Do you owe it to her to date her? Even though the thought of kissing her makes you kind of queasy? She's put so much time into the friendship!


The thing is though, assuming she's an average looking person (like many  friendzoned guys), if we're hanging out together all the time there's a very very good chance that one or more of those times a guy will be thinking, "I'd really like to be having sex...you'll do." Our standards on what's attractive fluctuates depending on the scenario.
2013-02-06 01:47:08 AM
1 votes:

Genevieve Marie: Seth'n'Spectrum: feffer: I would think you were 1) gay and an asshole or 2) negging me and thus a PUA asshole.

PUA = Philistine: Uncouth, Aggressive?

Once again, Fark advice proves to be counter-productive and only good for self-sabotage. But, hey, would we want it any other way?

Pick Up Artist. A truly weird culture of really creepy people.


Some of them are like that, but it's honestly a diverse crowd with different goals and strategies. You'll find a few clowns who are just trying to burn through as many women as they can to impress their guy friends, but you'll also find a lot of genuine guys who are frustrated and unsatisfied with their love lives that want to learn how to flirt. The fact is, though some PUAs go too far in the rudeness, they do have a point when they say that there's such a thing as being too nice too soon. When I was in college I used to pick one girl to have a crush on at a time because it felt like infidelity to talk to two of them. The girls I liked were overwhelmed at how much I liked them so quickly. PUA taught me that it's ok to just be cool and casual and not buy a girl flowers and tell her you love her within ten seconds of meeting her.
2013-02-06 01:44:53 AM
1 votes:
Yay for being average, nondescript, and blending into a crowd- fewer creepers that way!  Wait, that probably means I am a creeper. :-/  I'm a lady-creep.  Great.

Though personally, I've found it's pretty no brainer stuff.  Stop your efforts if they're just not buying it.  Don't hold a door open and wait 6 minutes for them to cross a busy parking lot, unless their arms are really full or something I guess, just to smell their hair as they dip under you.  What attracts on type of woman may not attract every type, that sort of thing.
2013-02-06 01:38:04 AM
1 votes:
As always it boils down to two rules:
1. Be a mindreader
2. Don't be unattractive
2013-02-06 01:29:25 AM
1 votes:
That article can be boiled down to:

1.  Be handsome
2.  Be attractive
3.  Don't be unattractive
2013-02-06 01:29:17 AM
1 votes:

Fano: Exactly, and surprised to see Genevieve_Marie declare it as false out of hand. If you are completely unattracted to a person, you are already negative enough that you would ascribe terrible motives to them.


Maybe that's how it works for some people, but I don't think I've ever been like that personally. It's never bothered me when a guy I'm not attracted to flirts with me, as long as it's polite and not too intrusive.

The only problem I occasionally ran into when I was single was the guy who thought he'd be able to change my mind and make himself attractive to me if he tried hard enough. There was one guy that stepped so, so far out of line on that one. It still creeps me out when I think about it.
2013-02-06 01:27:15 AM
1 votes:
That was much better than I expected. I do wish that more women would do the hard wink, it'd make things so much less stressful.
2013-02-06 01:21:43 AM
1 votes:
I had a friend way back that reminded me of Howard from The Big Bang Theory. He was desperate and would hit on anything that was the opposite sex with the predictable results. He was big into showing off his watch and his shoes to the ladies. After being with him when security was called or when the b/f of his target would show up, I stopped associating with him. Years later I got a call out of the blue from him, he needed a character witness of some sort for a protection order hearing. I had to work that day and had no time off left to take. That's the last I heard from him.

//hearing wasactually on my day off, hehe
2013-02-06 01:15:29 AM
1 votes:

feffer: Pick-up Artist.

[imgs.xkcd.com image 540x931]


Ah, yes. The perfect putdown by a woman -- written by a man, as the perfect compliment to a sociopath.
2013-02-06 01:05:43 AM
1 votes:

rynthetyn: BSABSVR: I'd think that "be polite and don't invade people's space" would be complete no-brainer advice.  Then I remember there's a thread just below where people don't understand that dog shiat on the porch isn't a stand your ground situation.

I have a friend who's routinely posting on Facebook about how women don't like nice guys. He's also the same guy who's one of those really huggy people where I had to put my foot down and make it really clear that I don't like people touching me. Instead of picking up on body language, when people recoiled he'd try to be extra huggy.


Ugh.

And next time he posts about how women don't like nice guys, link him to this: http://www.wired.com/underwire/2013/01/alt-text-nice-guy/
2013-02-06 01:03:33 AM
1 votes:

BSABSVR: I'd think that "be polite and don't invade people's space" would be complete no-brainer advice.  Then I remember there's a thread just below where people don't understand that dog shiat on the porch isn't a stand your ground situation.


I have a friend who's routinely posting on Facebook about how women don't like nice guys. He's also the same guy who's one of those really huggy people where I had to put my foot down and make it really clear that I don't like people touching me. Instead of picking up on body language, when people recoiled he'd try to be extra huggy.
2013-02-06 01:00:20 AM
1 votes:

Seth'n'Spectrum: feffer: I would think you were 1) gay and an asshole or 2) negging me and thus a PUA asshole.

PUA = Philistine: Uncouth, Aggressive?

Once again, Fark advice proves to be counter-productive and only good for self-sabotage. But, hey, would we want it any other way?


Pick Up Artist. A truly weird culture of really creepy people.
2013-02-06 12:59:21 AM
1 votes:

Seth'n'Spectrum: Some farker once said in a thread that the best way to get women to talk to you at a bar is to audibly mutter, "That dress with those shoes?" as they walk by.


I always liked "buy me a drink and I will allow you to swoon at my booted feet" better myself. Whether the reaction is positive or negative, its always amusing, and lets face it, classier than "want to go halfsies on a baby?"
2013-02-06 12:57:05 AM
1 votes:
Perhaps I've simply been playing too much Minecraft, but when I saw the term 'Creeper', one of my first thoughts was "It's going to explode!" instead of 'creepy guy'.
2013-02-06 12:54:13 AM
1 votes:

Christian Bale: Follow all the guidelines here--even the first one mentioned "does she want to be talked to?" how the fark should I know? You could always answer that "well, maybe not, I'd better not say anything"--and women would never be asked out. Then they'd complain about that...oh wait they already do.


That was in relation to a woman you don't know at all who's just walking around going about her day. Not someone you've met through work or friends or at a party or at a bar. Just some stranger going about their day.
2013-02-06 12:52:56 AM
1 votes:

BMFPitt: When I was a hopeless single guy, I always hated when people said, "Be confident" as if it were some kind of useful advice.

That's kind of like a track coach saying, "Run faster."


Not really. It works for me in everyday life.

Just man up and go, and realize it's no big deal.
 
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