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(Jezebel)   The best advice some people will never learn: "If women keep responding to you like you're some weirdo creeper, then chances are that you're acting like a weirdo creeper"   (jezebel.com) divider line 635
    More: Interesting, sex predator, p.f. chang, Amy Pond  
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10602 clicks; posted to Main » on 06 Feb 2013 at 12:45 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-02-06 02:19:19 PM

I drunk what: after you guys give me some pointers for how to win with the ladies can you offer some financial direction in the form of stock tips and portfolio creation?

also if i have some deep philosophical questions if you don't mind


Oh, sweet FSM, IDW is here.  This thread will now implode.

*goes to pop some more popcorn*
 
2013-02-06 02:20:45 PM

Theaetetus: fredklein: If I see a guy unlock a safe with the combo 1-2-3-4-5*, I'm going to try the same combination. I'm not going to sit there and try to figure out WHY the combination worked (maybe the first guy unlocked it on Jan 2, at 3:45pm), I'm just gonna try it. Especially if I see lots of other guys use that combination.

Note to observers that now fred has gone from talking about different women, to not just the same woman, but the same woman who has been "unlocked" by "lots of guys".



Um, no- I said "I see lots of other guys use that combination." I never said they used it on the same safe.
 
2013-02-06 02:22:57 PM

misterpriapus: Being in the friend zone means watching Pretty In Pink with her (since she's got the night off from banging her pickup artist), knowing that nothing more risque than a bucket of popcorn will happen while secretly wishing that Molly Ringwold had hooked up with Ducky at the end instead of that rich yuppie guy.  You feel that brother's pain.

It means that you put up with her using you because at the end of the day you still love her with all of your heart and you'd rather that she not have to deal with a broken toilet than risk losing her altogether.  Being in the friend zone means that you don't ever dare tell her how you feel because that would make her feel awkward and she'll very likely pull you out of that friend zone and put you straight into the creeper zone and you'll never see her again.



Yes, that's exactly what it means.  If you're both dishonest and deeply, profoundly misogynistic.

It's getting to the point where "friend zone" and "nice guy" are becoming codes for "I neither understand nor like women."
 
2013-02-06 02:24:29 PM

ciberido: Theaetetus: udhq: Theaetetus: It's a little creepy to ask someone that you don't talk to and don't find interesting for sex. And quite creepy to say, when they try to politely turn you down, that you don't have any interest in them other than sex.

Note that I didn't say "dishonest". But yes, creepy.

You do realize that there is more than sex to a romantic relationship, right?

You're projecting your own creepiness on other people in this thread.....

Pro-tip: when you've told a story about how other people have called you creepy, and others in the thread agree that you sound creepy, it's probably a bit late to try the "NO U ARE!" tactic.


It's particularly telling that HE's telling the story in HIS words.  If there is any bias to the story at all, it's presumably in his favor.

If you paint a story in such a way as to make it look like you were the wronged party, and people STILL tell you that you acted like a creep ... well, draw your own conclusions.


I don't understand.  Please explain how either of us were "wronged" in my story.  I asked her out, she wasn't interested.

I was simply pointing out that I thought the follow up was interesting, she went to her friends and used the word in question, which is no different than if I had gone to my friends and said "I asked that biatch out but that biatch said no because she's a biatch."

It's unfortunate that she sunk to that level, and if I had known she was that kind of person, I wouldn't have asked her out, but at the end of the day, her behavior demeaned herself more than me.  I don't feel "wronged" by it, and I don't feel I have anything to feel ashamed of from the situation.
 
2013-02-06 02:26:04 PM
hitlersbrain:
The hardest thing to realize for a man is that a woman has absolutely, positively no interest whatsoever in sex. You have to play a lot of games to even get a woman to think about it. It's very maddening.

they do, but men are so much more interested in sex (yes yes not ALWAYS the case) that sometimes it seems like they have absolutely no interest.  check this out:   http://www.thisamericanlife.org/radio-archives/episode/220/testostero n e.  the whole thing is fascinating, but act 2 specifically is about a woman who takes testosterone and how it affected her sexuality, as told by her.
 
2013-02-06 02:26:36 PM

Millennium: udhq: I'll never forget when I was in college, I asked a woman out, and she said "we should just be friends." Now, I could have said "Ok", and dealt with that as it came, but I owned a van at the time, and so like clockwork, that kind of "friend" always seemed to call up around the end of spring semester, asking if I would help her move. On top of that, I just didn't find her terribly interesting to talk to on a platonic level.

So, I decided to be honest and soften it to "I appreciate that, but I have not had good luck being friends with women I'm attracted to." She looked a little taken aback, but she hugged me and we went on our separate ways. A couple days later this story gets back to me from a friend of a friend with the addendum, "she thought that was totally creepy."

The fact is what I said and did was honest and polite, she didn't get what she wanted out of the situation, and calling me "creepy" was the only way she knew of to blame me for her hard feelings over the situation. I saw her a couple of times after that, I was cordial as I didn't feel I had anything to be ashamed of, but she was always really awkward and you could tell she was embarrassed every time we saw each other.

Well, yeah; it was creepy. You stuck around her for years on end, with no real interest other than figuring out an angle to get into her pants. Of course that's creepy: you weren't a friend, you were a hunter, and you got her to tell you where she lived. You farking scared the farking bejeezus out of her, you fark.

This is why I say you should never continue to pursue someone who has said she's not interested. You scared her so badly that she started warning the people she knows. And now you're wondering why you're having trouble meeting people? You've got a reputation now, and you earned it; they're scared of you because you did something that should scare them. If you'd been honest about this from the beginning, things would have been different, but instead you did the Ni ...


I'm not going to touch whether or not the initial contact was creepy or not, but social circles in college aren't what I would call insular. He very well could have been "that dude with the van that so-and-so knows" to a lot of people. The woman in question might not have been forward enough prior to his initiating contact to try and take advantage of that through a mutual friend, but she was after she realized that he had interest in pursuing something. That's pretty shiatty in and of itself.
 
2013-02-06 02:28:18 PM
this has turned into Dear Abby but with more spite and angst.

kudos? yah. kudos.
 
2013-02-06 02:29:12 PM
hitlersbrain:Never, ever ask a woman how to meet women, they have no idea. There are three types of men as far as women are concerned, the type they SAY they want, the type they THINK they want and the type they end up having sex with. The three types usually have nothing in common.

There is a grain of truth to that.  But it's less a statement about women and more a statement about the human condition.

This may seem like a silly comparison, but I used to spend a good bit of time reading about the philosophy of game design.  I remember some comment a developer wrote about a MMO he had been working on.  It's just a paraphrase, but it went something like this:

"The biggest mistake I ever made as a developer was to listen to what people complained about on the forums and try to change the game to assuage those complaints.  Rather than appeasing them, we lost subscribers.  Once I learned that what players ranted about on the forums and what changes we should (or shouldn't) make to keep our subscribers had very little to do with each other, we did much better."
 
2013-02-06 02:30:25 PM

Millennium: udhq: I'll never forget when I was in college, I asked a woman out, and she said "we should just be friends." Now, I could have said "Ok", and dealt with that as it came, but I owned a van at the time, and so like clockwork, that kind of "friend" always seemed to call up around the end of spring semester, asking if I would help her move. On top of that, I just didn't find her terribly interesting to talk to on a platonic level.

So, I decided to be honest and soften it to "I appreciate that, but I have not had good luck being friends with women I'm attracted to." She looked a little taken aback, but she hugged me and we went on our separate ways. A couple days later this story gets back to me from a friend of a friend with the addendum, "she thought that was totally creepy."

The fact is what I said and did was honest and polite, she didn't get what she wanted out of the situation, and calling me "creepy" was the only way she knew of to blame me for her hard feelings over the situation. I saw her a couple of times after that, I was cordial as I didn't feel I had anything to be ashamed of, but she was always really awkward and you could tell she was embarrassed every time we saw each other.

Well, yeah; it was creepy. You stuck around her for years on end, with no real interest other than figuring out an angle to get into her pants. Of course that's creepy: you weren't a friend, you were a hunter, and you got her to tell you where she lived. You farking scared the farking bejeezus out of her, you fark.

This is why I say you should never continue to pursue someone who has said she's not interested. You scared her so badly that she started warning the people she knows. And now you're wondering why you're having trouble meeting people? You've got a reputation now, and you earned it; they're scared of you because you did something that should scare them. If you'd been honest about this from the beginning, things would have been different, but instead you did the Ni ...


Lol wat?  I don't know what you're talking about.  I didn't pursue her for "years on end", I don't know where you got that.  I knew her for all of 2 weeks, and I never spoke to her again, beyond saying "hi" in public, after the situation in question.  I didn't try to maintain proximity, I didn't try to play the "nice guy", and I certainly don't have a reputation of being anything but completely Michael-Cera-esque with women.

Seriously, It seems like a lot of you people have a preconceived agenda and you're seeing what you want to see in my story.
 
2013-02-06 02:31:15 PM

udhq: My point is just that "creepy" is simply the female version of "biatch", it's a gender-loaded pejorative that people of a certain quality throw out there when they've got nothing else.


Yes.  That IS your point.  And it's also your problem.  It's exactly why women don't like you.

But, like in the xkcd cartoon, telling you this won't help.
 
2013-02-06 02:32:21 PM

Millennium: Safes are not people. Safes don't have brains or hormones; they react the same way to the same action every time. People don't do that; you don't do it either. Why would you expect women to be any different?


But people DO do that (within a certain margin for error).

Playing hard-to-get is a cruel thing to do. You do not want to end up with someone who would play with your emotions in such a heartless manner; just write her off and move on with your life.

If men just 'moved on' every time a woman said no, I don't think we'd exist as a species anymore. Can anyone HONESTLY say they have ONLY had sex with women who immediately (and honestly) said "YES" the very first time they were approached?

Didn't think so.

Heck, even my wife said 'No' the first time I asked her out. But I asked her out again, and here we are.

However, what is this "have to continue pursuing them"? This does not happen. You always have the option to stop and look for another fish in the sea; nothing binds you to continue pursuing her.

...and if ALL the fish in the sea act like that?

Actually, the basics aren't really subjective at all: societal defaults do have their uses. Don't make a habit of looking scary

Define "scary" in a way that it will apply to all women.

Hint: you can't. Women (people) are different. What one finds "scary" another finds attractive.

Thus, it is impossible to not be "scary". Unless you can read her mind and know what scares her.

or consistently reminding people of your (real or illusory) ability to overpower them,

I know of no one who does this...unless you mean 'doing' this by simply existing. The way men 'oppress' women by simply being men.

Just don't fake things.

They say Sincerity is important- if you can fake that, you got it made.
 
2013-02-06 02:33:08 PM

udhq: I'll never forget when I was in college....



why did you rape that nice lady's van? WHY YOU MONSTER, WHY????
 
2013-02-06 02:34:13 PM

udhq: I don't understand.  Please explain how either of us were "wronged" in my story.  I asked her out, she wasn't interested.


No.  I am done with you.  Good luck figuring your problems out.
 
2013-02-06 02:35:20 PM

Smackledorfer: 2. Aside from me seeing a different trend in the thread, you didn't respond to anything I actually said, just changed the argument and pushed what I can only imagine is your own baggage onto me. I've made no personal assumptions about you and your behaviors, so why would you jump straight to do so about me?


You were talking about mediocre looking guys and it not being fair that they have to initiate contact. That's what I was responding to.
 
2013-02-06 02:35:36 PM

Smackledorfer: I don't think I've ever seen men claim they treat beautiful and ugly women the same in relationships and potential relationships.  Almost 500 comments in the thread, and while I didn't read them all, has anyone made this claim?

What I see men doing in this thread is trying to point out that women are just as bad about things as they are.  That, when coupled with the standard that more often than not men are the ones who approach the women first (and are expected to do so) leaves a double standard.  It results in men who act exactly the same as the attractive men but are not found to be physically attractive get the creeper vibe. These men aren't allowed to hit on coworkers, waitresses, bartenders, salesgirls, etc etc because if they proceed with an unwanted advance it is creepy and they are horrible people for giving things a shot - at least according to many of the women in this thread and plenty of the stupid feminist internet articles.  I don't think it is fair to guys with mediocre looks that they already have a strike against them and are then asked to make less attempts on top of that, all to keep some apparently fragile women from being annoyed. One would think that the feminist women would be against that double standard too, but all too often they want it both ways.

That said, obviously there are numerous double standards between the sexes, so don't read this post as me trying to say women have it easy and woe is men. This is just my opinion on this one issue.


Of course they don't claim it. They just do it. Most people are not terribly honest about their interpersonal relationships gone wrong. They tell the parts that make the other person look like an asshole and leave out the parts that make THEM look like an asshole. I know both genders do this.

As for the striking out part, I can't see every one of these interactions. So we're obviously being asked to take at face value everybody's assessment of it (the men saying, "No, I'm not a creep!" and the women saying, "OMG, what a creep!"). No doubt many of those people on both sides are assessing it inaccurately ie, many of the men did indeed give off a creep vibe, and many of those who didn't were still perceived as creeps by women who think all unattractive men who hit on them are creepy.

The linked article is not terrible. It makes a lot of sense. I think the plane advice is a little harsh. Many people meet on planes.

I think what many women object to is the asshole who just won't take "No, thanks" as an answer. I'm not sure what's so unreasonable about this. If you make a tentative overture and it is not reciprocated, that's it. Not reciprocating is pretty much the international sign for: "Thanks for the compliment of hitting on me, but no thanks." Women are adults. They don't have to explain why they don't want to carry on a conversation/go out with you/have sex with you. Strangers you find attractive don't really owe you anything other than a modicum of civility in your interaction with them. They are not required to give you a fair shot at them. And if you've encountered women who respond assholishly to overtures, well, that's unfortunate, but you should probably keep in mind that many women have learned through unpleasant experience that often, anything less than "Leave me the fark alone" is interpreted by some men as "code" for "She's just playing hard to get, I should try harder, because chicks dig a guy with confidence."

And if you find the double standard in this regard unfair, maybe you should contemplate the double standard women deal with regarding sexual activity. Men who fark a lot of different people are studs. Women who fark a lot of different people are skanks, whores, sluts. That's not very fair, either. But I don't see all that many men here at Fark condemning it. And they sure don't mind benefiting from it. So it is difficult to feel a great deal of sympathy for men who want to benefit from a double standard that works in their favor but complain when another one doesn't.

I can't do anything about women who reward good-looking assholes with copious sex. I can think they're stupid, but that's all I can do.
 
2013-02-06 02:37:22 PM

udhq: I don't know how many times I can say the same thing: I was interested in pursuing a romantic relationship with this women. I don't understand why that seems to be such a difficult answer?


I'm asking you to tell me what specifically entails a romantic relationship, if not talking because she bored you so very much when she spoke.
 
2013-02-06 02:38:32 PM

ciberido: But just so you know, a lot of women would never, ever date a guy who didn't want to be friends. The problem, at least in many cases, is in step 3 of this scenario.

Boy: "I want to date you, but I don't want to be friends."
Girl: "I don't want to date you if you don't want to be friends. "
Boy: "Ok, goodbye, then." OR "Graaaar! Girls are evil!"

I guess we're back to "If they don't want that, fair enough."


A guy isn't doing anyone any favors by pretending he doesn't want to be more than friends when he does.  I would argue that there are few things worse than a guy hanging around "as a friend" because he thinks that that might change someday.  That is like stalking.

That doesn't mean a woman is to blame for not wanting a romantic relationship, and conversely a man shouldn't be blamed for not wanting a platonic relationship.
 
2013-02-06 02:38:40 PM

Smelly Pirate Hooker: But I don't see all that many men here at Fark condemning it.


i resemble that remark. few places in the world are more skank, slut, or whore friendly than fark.
 
2013-02-06 02:40:27 PM

udhq: A guy isn't doing anyone any favors by pretending he doesn't want to be more than friends when he does. I would argue that there are few things worse than a guy hanging around "as a friend" because he thinks that that might change someday. That is like stalking.

That doesn't mean a woman is to blame for not wanting a romantic relationship, and conversely a man shouldn't be blamed for not wanting a platonic relationship.


How do you have a romantic relationship with someone you can't be friends with?  I mean, you don't like talking to them, walk me through the day to day of what makes that relationship romantic and special since you don't have friendship in common?
 
2013-02-06 02:41:42 PM

misterpriapus: It means that you put up with her using you because at the end of the day you still love her with all of your heart and you'd rather that she not have to deal with a broken toilet than risk losing her altogether. Being in the friend zone means that you don't ever dare tell her how you feel because that would make her feel awkward and she'll very likely pull you out of that friend zone and put you straight into the creeper zone and you'll never see her again.


Your complete unwillingness to pursue a woman "you love with all your heart" is probably the main reason she disqualified you as a potential partner in the first place. She is treating you like a neuter because that's how you are acting.

The bad news is this one is completely farked. Even if you somehow worm your way into her next rebound, your unrelenting neediness and "whole heart love" will be absolute kryptonite to her lady boner. You might as well give her a that big ball of her hair you've been picking off her couch cushions.

The good news is that you probably don't love her. You're just obsessed with her. She isn't the quirky, perfect angel who is going to save you. She is just another insecure human with all the annoying tendencies and selfishness that we all have. Also, she seems to have a terrible time picking men, so there is likely some abandonment issues or other traumas to work through. She'll cheat on you when your relationship doesn't provide the dysfunction that is hardwired into her brain as "normal."

So move on, pursue your next interest honestly, and try not to make the same mistakes.
 
2013-02-06 02:43:07 PM

Magnanimous_J: misterpriapus: It means that you put up with her using you because at the end of the day you still love her with all of your heart and you'd rather that she not have to deal with a broken toilet than risk losing her altogether. Being in the friend zone means that you don't ever dare tell her how you feel because that would make her feel awkward and she'll very likely pull you out of that friend zone and put you straight into the creeper zone and you'll never see her again.

Your complete unwillingness to pursue a woman "you love with all your heart" is probably the main reason she disqualified you as a potential partner in the first place. She is treating you like a neuter because that's how you are acting.

The bad news is this one is completely farked. Even if you somehow worm your way into her next rebound, your unrelenting neediness and "whole heart love" will be absolute kryptonite to her lady boner. You might as well give her a that big ball of her hair you've been picking off her couch cushions.

The good news is that you probably don't love her. You're just obsessed with her. She isn't the quirky, perfect angel who is going to save you. She is just another insecure human with all the annoying tendencies and selfishness that we all have. Also, she seems to have a terrible time picking men, so there is likely some abandonment issues or other traumas to work through. She'll cheat on you when your relationship doesn't provide the dysfunction that is hardwired into her brain as "normal."

So move on, pursue your next interest honestly, and try not to make the same mistakes.


Or, just give up.

Giving up is perfectly fine, too.
 
2013-02-06 02:43:48 PM

ciberido: udhq: I don't understand.  Please explain how either of us were "wronged" in my story.  I asked her out, she wasn't interested.

No.  I am done with you.  Good luck figuring your problems out.


Fine by me, you're just using this thread to confirm the prejudices you came in with anyways.
 
2013-02-06 02:45:10 PM

Smelly Pirate Hooker: Of course they don't claim it. They just do it


I don't know if you have terrible reading comprehension or what, but I've reread your Boobies that I responded to and this new response to mine and I have no idea where the hell you are going with your post or why you think it has anything to do with either your Boobies or my response.

It is almost like you read neither your own words nor mine.
 
2013-02-06 02:47:20 PM
This is why I need a wingman. Or rather, a whole company of wingmen.
 
2013-02-06 02:48:29 PM

Smackledorfer: Smelly Pirate Hooker: Of course they don't claim it. They just do it

I don't know if you have terrible reading comprehension or what, but I've reread your Boobies that I responded to and this new response to mine and I have no idea where the hell you are going with your post or why you think it has anything to do with either your Boobies or my response.

It is almost like you read neither your own words nor mine.


...but where will we find a duck and a hose at this hour?
 
2013-02-06 02:49:39 PM

Millennium: fredklein: And if Joe flirts a certain way with a woman and gets laid, then Bob should be able to flirt that way with a woman and get laid, too. Similar.

Why? Joe is not Bob. They are different people; they have different tools.


Yes, every situation is different. No two are exactly the same. But if I see a plumber use a pipe wrench under the bathroom sink, and he successfully tightens the fitting, then when my kitchen sink is leaking, it is only logical to try a pipe wrench on it to tighten it. Even though it's a different sink,in a different room of the house, it's still a sink, and is similar.

So, if Bob sees Joe act a certain way and get laid, it's only logical for Bob to try acting that way himself, if his goal is to get laid. Even though it's a different woman, it's a different bar, a different time of day, different patrons in the bar, different phase of the moon, and there's a different song playing on the jukebox. But it's still a woman in a bar, and is similar.

Let's flip it around. If I took a bunch of pictures of women and asked you to rank them from most to least attractive, you could certainly do that.

Physical attraction? Sure.

If I were to take that same list and rank them, my ordering would probably differ at least a little from yours. Even if our lists agreed completely, I could certainly find men who would make different lists. I doubt that this is controversial either; you'd write it off as differing tastes between us.

Why, then, would it be controversial to flip the genders? Is it not possible that women might be attracted to some people, but not others, along similar lines? What makes this unfair?


Nothing.

But if Ms. One and Ms. Ten (on my list) both came up to me and said "Hi", I wouldn't go calling Ms. One a 'creeper' because she said 'Hi' to me.
 
2013-02-06 02:52:45 PM

ciberido: I drunk what: after you guys give me some pointers for how to win with the ladies can you offer some financial direction in the form of stock tips and portfolio creation?

also if i have some deep philosophical questions if you don't mind

Oh, sweet FSM, IDW is here.  This thread will now implode.

*goes to pop some more popcorn*


well, while we are doing an advice thread, i would like to update my belief system if you guys have the time
 
2013-02-06 02:55:01 PM

gulogulo: udhq: A guy isn't doing anyone any favors by pretending he doesn't want to be more than friends when he does. I would argue that there are few things worse than a guy hanging around "as a friend" because he thinks that that might change someday. That is like stalking.

That doesn't mean a woman is to blame for not wanting a romantic relationship, and conversely a man shouldn't be blamed for not wanting a platonic relationship.

How do you have a romantic relationship with someone you can't be friends with?  I mean, you don't like talking to them, walk me through the day to day of what makes that relationship romantic and special since you don't have friendship in common?


Have you ever read any of Jane Austen's novels?

The idea of being attracted to someone who you don't particularly like is not at all new.  Not saying it's a good idea, or forms the basis for a lasting relationship, but it happens, and it clouds your judgement.
 
2013-02-06 02:56:14 PM

udhq: That doesn't mean a woman is to blame for not wanting a romantic relationship, and conversely a man shouldn't be blamed for not wanting a platonic relationship.



Nor should he wig out and start thinking "that biatch only wanted to use me for my sweet van".  To me, that's kind of a sad, paranoid way of looking at life.

For a long time now, I've had a little pickup truck. I've helped tons of people move - and I've never felt like I was being "used" by anyone. And I've only said no once - to a dude I was working with that biatched and moaned about saving the environment and people driving cars until he needed me to haul a couch to his place. Fark that guy.

 Friends help friends move. Sometimes you help someone you barely know move. You meet people, you have an experience. I never felt used. But then I'm not out looking to pork everyone that moves. Lighten up, take the long view, start seeing women as people and you'll get a lot more out of life.

/pork moves
 
2013-02-06 02:58:45 PM

udhq: gulogulo: udhq: A guy isn't doing anyone any favors by pretending he doesn't want to be more than friends when he does. I would argue that there are few things worse than a guy hanging around "as a friend" because he thinks that that might change someday. That is like stalking.

That doesn't mean a woman is to blame for not wanting a romantic relationship, and conversely a man shouldn't be blamed for not wanting a platonic relationship.

How do you have a romantic relationship with someone you can't be friends with?  I mean, you don't like talking to them, walk me through the day to day of what makes that relationship romantic and special since you don't have friendship in common?

Have you ever read any of Jane Austen's novels?

The idea of being attracted to someone who you don't particularly like is not at all new.  Not saying it's a good idea, or forms the basis for a lasting relationship, but it happens, and it clouds your judgement.


Walk me through the day, please. How would you interact with a person, or imagine a relationship being possible, with someone you have no interest in friendship with (as in, talking to them and being interested in what they say).  No, I don't read Jane Austen novels (or haven't since high school) because I found them trite and ridiculous, fiction if you will.
 
2013-02-06 02:59:02 PM

yapopo: hitlersbrain:
The hardest thing to realize for a man is that a woman has absolutely, positively no interest whatsoever in sex. You have to play a lot of games to even get a woman to think about it. It's very maddening.

they do, but men are so much more interested in sex (yes yes not ALWAYS the case) that sometimes it seems like they have absolutely no interest.  check this out:   http://www.thisamericanlife.org/radio-archives/episode/220/testostero n e.  the whole thing is fascinating, but act 2 specifically is about a woman who takes testosterone and how it affected her sexuality, as told by her.


I will have to wait until after work but it sounds interesting. Thanks for the link.
 
2013-02-06 03:02:53 PM

hitlersbrain: yapopo: hitlersbrain:
The hardest thing to realize for a man is that a woman has absolutely, positively no interest whatsoever in sex. You have to play a lot of games to even get a woman to think about it. It's very maddening.

they do, but men are so much more interested in sex (yes yes not ALWAYS the case) that sometimes it seems like they have absolutely no interest.  check this out:   http://www.thisamericanlife.org/radio-archives/episode/220/testostero n e.  the whole thing is fascinating, but act 2 specifically is about a woman who takes testosterone and how it affected her sexuality, as told by her.

I will have to wait until after work but it sounds interesting. Thanks for the link.


Transgender people who use hormone replacement therapy to make their bodies more masculine or more feminine (depending on whether they are male-to-female or female-to-male, or other) report some interested effects of either going on, or suppressing, testosterone.
 
2013-02-06 03:03:36 PM

fredklein: But if Ms. One and Ms. Ten (on my list) both came up to me and said "Hi", I wouldn't go calling Ms. One a 'creeper' because she said 'Hi' to me.


But I bet you would if she said "hi, want to go out," you replied, "no, thanks, let's just be friends," and she said "no, I have no interest in being friends with you, and I'm also never going to help you with anything in the future."
 
2013-02-06 03:05:34 PM

Theaetetus: fredklein: But if Ms. One and Ms. Ten (on my list) both came up to me and said "Hi", I wouldn't go calling Ms. One a 'creeper' because she said 'Hi' to me.

But I bet you would if she said "hi, want to go out," you replied, "no, thanks, let's just be friends," and she said "no, I have no interest in being friends with you, and I'm also never going to help you with anything in the future."


No, I believe his reaction would be "...biatch", which goes toward proving the theory upthread that "creepy" is just a woman's version of a catch-all word used to describe someone who pisses them off in some way.
 
2013-02-06 03:10:15 PM

FirstNationalBastard: Theaetetus: fredklein: But if Ms. One and Ms. Ten (on my list) both came up to me and said "Hi", I wouldn't go calling Ms. One a 'creeper' because she said 'Hi' to me.

But I bet you would if she said "hi, want to go out," you replied, "no, thanks, let's just be friends," and she said "no, I have no interest in being friends with you, and I'm also never going to help you with anything in the future."

No, I believe his reaction would be "...biatch", which goes toward proving the theory upthread that "creepy" is just a woman's version of a catch-all word used to describe someone who pisses them off in some way.


Fred's a guy, y'know. I'm not sure how your assumption about his reaction supports your other assumption about women's reactions.
 
2013-02-06 03:10:54 PM

Theaetetus: fredklein: But if Ms. One and Ms. Ten (on my list) both came up to me and said "Hi", I wouldn't go calling Ms. One a 'creeper' because she said 'Hi' to me.

But I bet you would if she said "hi, want to go out," you replied, "no, thanks, let's just be friends," and she said "no, I have no interest in being friends with you, and I'm also never going to help you with anything in the future."


First, I think you're confusing me with udhq.

Second, what udhq actually said was ""I appreciate that, but I have not had good luck being friends with women I'm attracted to.""
 
2013-02-06 03:10:54 PM
Plus, as much as I dislike fred for many reasons, I don't think his immediate reaction to a woman saying "hi" would be to call her a biatch, no matter how ugly she was.
 
2013-02-06 03:12:06 PM

fredklein: Theaetetus: fredklein: But if Ms. One and Ms. Ten (on my list) both came up to me and said "Hi", I wouldn't go calling Ms. One a 'creeper' because she said 'Hi' to me.

But I bet you would if she said "hi, want to go out," you replied, "no, thanks, let's just be friends," and she said "no, I have no interest in being friends with you, and I'm also never going to help you with anything in the future."

First, I think you're confusing me with udhq.

Second, what udhq actually said was ""I appreciate that, but I have not had good luck being friends with women I'm attracted to.""


Third, what udhq did was assume that this girl was going to demand moving help from him, even though she had never asked and he had only known her for two weeks, and since he had no interest in helping someone he wasn't banging, he told her no to being friends.
 
2013-02-06 03:12:06 PM

FirstNationalBastard: Theaetetus: fredklein: But if Ms. One and Ms. Ten (on my list) both came up to me and said "Hi", I wouldn't go calling Ms. One a 'creeper' because she said 'Hi' to me.

But I bet you would if she said "hi, want to go out," you replied, "no, thanks, let's just be friends," and she said "no, I have no interest in being friends with you, and I'm also never going to help you with anything in the future."

No, I believe his reaction would be "...biatch",


Well, you'd know better that I what my reaction would be. ::eyeroll::
 
2013-02-06 03:12:23 PM

gulogulo: Walk me through the day, please. How would you interact with a person, or imagine a relationship being possible, with someone you have no interest in friendship with (as in, talking to them and being interested in what they say). No, I don't read Jane Austen novels (or haven't since high school) because I found them trite and ridiculous, fiction if you will.


I don't think you'd be as interested as you claim in a synopses of a day in the life of my relationship with my ex-girlfriend, but if you're arguing that it doesn't happen, you're wrong.  I've had relationships with women I didn't like personally, and relationships with women who I loved deeply that were good people but not at all curious about the world around them.  I've made both "work" to varying degrees.  Like I said, romance can cloud one's judgement.

Sometimes you find small, seemingly insignificant things you have in common, sometimes you find ways of avoiding meaningful communication altogether.  In one case, I worked days and she worked nights, and so we hardly ever saw each other.

I'm not saying it's a good idea, but the possibility is not going to stop me from asking a women out on a date to whom I'm otherwise attracted.
 
2013-02-06 03:13:17 PM

FirstNationalBastard: Theaetetus: fredklein: But if Ms. One and Ms. Ten (on my list) both came up to me and said "Hi", I wouldn't go calling Ms. One a 'creeper' because she said 'Hi' to me.

But I bet you would if she said "hi, want to go out," you replied, "no, thanks, let's just be friends," and she said "no, I have no interest in being friends with you, and I'm also never going to help you with anything in the future."

No, I believe his reaction would be "...biatch", which goes toward proving the theory upthread that "creepy" is just a woman's version of a catch-all word used to describe someone who pisses them off in some way.


Not sure I personally would use the word "biatch", but it would definitely be noted that it was somewhat weird. That being said, I'd wager I'd be the weird one if after that happened I continued to call the person wanting the help that they already made clear that they wouldn't offer.
 
2013-02-06 03:14:21 PM

Theaetetus: Third, what udhq did was assume that this girl was going to demand moving help from him, even though she had never asked and he had only known her for two weeks, and since he had no interest in helping someone he wasn't banging, he told her no to being friends.


His comment made it clear the same thing had happened before: "that kind of "friend" always seemed to call up around the end of spring semester, asking if I would help her move."

He didn't want "that kind of 'friend'". I don't see the problem.
 
2013-02-06 03:14:27 PM

hitlersbrain: yapopo: hitlersbrain:
The hardest thing to realize for a man is that a woman has absolutely, positively no interest whatsoever in sex. You have to play a lot of games to even get a woman to think about it. It's very maddening.

they do, but men are so much more interested in sex (yes yes not ALWAYS the case) that sometimes it seems like they have absolutely no interest.  check this out:   http://www.thisamericanlife.org/radio-archives/episode/220/testostero n e.  the whole thing is fascinating, but act 2 specifically is about a woman who takes testosterone and how it affected her sexuality, as told by her.

I will have to wait until after work but it sounds interesting. Thanks for the link.


surething man
 
2013-02-06 03:15:07 PM

fredklein: Millennium: Safes are not people. Safes don't have brains or hormones; they react the same way to the same action every time. People don't do that; you don't do it either. Why would you expect women to be any different?

But people DO do that (within a certain margin for error).


Actually, by and large, they don't. Especially not when it comes to things like this.

Playing hard-to-get is a cruel thing to do. You do not want to end up with someone who would play with your emotions in such a heartless manner; just write her off and move on with your life.

If men just 'moved on' every time a woman said no, I don't think we'd exist as a species anymore. Can anyone HONESTLY say they have ONLY had sex with women who immediately (and honestly) said "YES" the very first time they were approached?

Didn't think so.


Not that this is any of your business, but if we're going to go here, then what the hell; I'll stand. I can say it honestly, and I doubt that cases like mine are exceptional.

However, what is this "have to continue pursuing them"? This does not happen. You always have the option to stop and look for another fish in the sea; nothing binds you to continue pursuing her.

...and if ALL the fish in the sea act like that?


They don't, so the point is moot.

Actually, the basics aren't really subjective at all: societal defaults do have their uses. Don't make a habit of looking scary

Define "scary" in a way that it will apply to all women.


Something scary that'll apply to all women? A guy who follows/herds them to a place they cannot escape, and then stops taking "no" for an answer. That catches the sane ones; anyone this doesn't scare is not someone you want to be with.

Hint: you can't. Women (people) are different. What one finds "scary" another finds attractive.

Not on this. There are those who like to indulge in an illusion of danger from time to time, but even these are not interested in the real thing. The moment they get any inkling that the menace you display might be real, everything will come crashing down so fast you won't know what hit you. That's what got udhq into trouble; this girl suddenly saw him as a threat, and she went straight to her support network with warnings. Years later, she's still afraid of him.
 
2013-02-06 03:15:56 PM

gulogulo: No, I don't read Jane Austen novels (or haven't since high school) because I found them trite and ridiculous, fiction if you will.


/aside: they're actually great works of satire about human relationships, much like what we're talking about in this thread. They went over my head when I was in high school because I missed the fact that it's all very tongue in cheek - consider the very first sentences of Pride and Prejudice: "It is a truth universally acknowledged, that a single man in possession of a good fortune must be in want of a wife.However little known the feelings or views of such a man may be on his first entering a neighbourhood, this truth is so well fixed in the minds of the surrounding families, that he is considered as the rightful property of some one or other of their daughters."
It's really not being serious in the slightest.
 
2013-02-06 03:18:28 PM

fredklein: Theaetetus: Third, what udhq did was assume that this girl was going to demand moving help from him, even though she had never asked and he had only known her for two weeks, and since he had no interest in helping someone he wasn't banging, he told her no to being friends.

His comment made it clear the same thing had happened before: "that kind of "friend" always seemed to call up around the end of spring semester, asking if I would help her move."

He didn't want "that kind of 'friend'". I don't see the problem.


Weren't you earlier insisting that you  weren't calling all women identical?
 
2013-02-06 03:25:11 PM

Millennium: fredklein: Millennium: Safes are not people. Safes don't have brains or hormones; they react the same way to the same action every time. People don't do that; you don't do it either. Why would you expect women to be any different?

But people DO do that (within a certain margin for error).

Actually, by and large, they don't. Especially not when it comes to things like this.


But they DO. That's how con artists can manipulate their victims. That how pickup artists work. It's how governments keep control of their people. And so on.

Yes, people are individuals. But they have a lot of similarities as well.

Not that this is any of your business, but if we're going to go here, then what the hell; I'll stand. I can say it honestly, and I doubt that cases like mine are exceptional.

So, you walked up to her and said "Hi. I wanna date you and have sex with you" and she said "Okay"? I somehow doubt that.

Something scary that'll apply to all women? A guy who follows/herds them to a place they cannot escape, and then stops taking "no" for an answer.

And I know of absolutely NO guys who meet that description. And, as you said "That catches the sane ones; anyone this doesn't scare is not someone you want to be with.", which means it DOESN'T apply to ALL women.

There are those who like to indulge in an illusion of danger from time to time, but even these are not interested in the real thing. The moment they get any inkling that the menace you display might be real, everything will come crashing down so fast you won't know what hit you.

So, there are no battered wives or girlfriends then?? I mean getting beaten certainly qualifies as an 'inkling' that the 'menace might be real'.

That's what got udhq into trouble; this girl suddenly saw him as a threat, and she went straight to her support network with warnings. Years later, she's still afraid of him.

And the point is, she was crazy to see him as a threat because he said "I appreciate that, but I have not had good luck being friends with women I'm attracted to." There is absolutely nothing threatening there.
 
2013-02-06 03:26:58 PM

Theaetetus: Weren't you earlier insisting that you weren't calling all women identical?


I'm not. But similarities exist.

Y'know what? I'm gonna stop replying to you until you look up the definition of "similar". hint: it doesn't mean "identical", but it's not completely different either!
 
2013-02-06 03:31:51 PM

Smackledorfer: Sure, but I wouldn't be insulted and pissy about it if a woman I didn't want was hitting on me.  As you say she would have to do a better job to land me (well, not me, I've got pretty low standards :P ) but I would never feel upset at her for making an attempt.


If she started calling you at work, you might. If she showed up at your house, you definitely would. And if women murdered men in anywhere near the numbers that men murder women, you would feel threatened.

Why do men not understand this? Why do you not understand that almost all men (under the age of, say, 70) are inherently threatening (in that they could potentially pose a physical threat) to all women, regardless of age. No need to take it personally. It's just that many (most?) women don't feel like they can afford to give someone the benefit of the doubt. If they feel a creepy vibe (whether that is what's actually happening or not) the default response to this is "Get away as soon as possible and avoid in the future."

I'm sure many dudes have been on the receiving end of this and feel they were unjustly accused. Sorry. But if you want to blame somebody for that, you should probably start with the sex offenders who make this default position necessary (for those women trying to avoid legitimate rape).
 
2013-02-06 03:34:58 PM

udhq: don't think you'd be as interested as you claim in a synopses of a day in the life of my relationship with my ex-girlfriend, but if you're arguing that it doesn't happen, you're wrong. I've had relationships with women I didn't like personally, and relationships with women who I loved deeply that were good people but not at all curious about the world around them. I've made both "work" to varying degrees. Like I said, romance can cloud one's judgement.

Sometimes you find small, seemingly insignificant things you have in common, sometimes you find ways of avoiding meaningful communication altogether. In one case, I worked days and she worked nights, and so we hardly ever saw each other.

I'm not saying it's a good idea, but the possibility is not going to stop me from asking a women out on a date to whom I'm otherwise attracted.


Uh huh. So..tell me what the relationship is if you aren't talking to one another. How do you interact? What is it precisely that you do that still makes it a relationship rather than a roommate?
 
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