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(APM Marketplace)   Would paying public school teachers a $125,000 salary improve student performance? One New York City school is trying it out   (marketplace.org) divider line 148
    More: Interesting, New York City, University of New York, student tests, students, salary, student achievement, special educations  
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4921 clicks; posted to Main » on 05 Feb 2013 at 5:07 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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NFA [TotalFark]
2013-02-04 08:43:23 PM
Although higher performance was promised by the labor unions, it didn't work for police departments.
 
2013-02-04 08:49:14 PM
So, cut frills and make each teacher do two jobs.  Turnover may skyrocket due to burnout, but while they're there they're producing results.  Might work.
 
2013-02-04 10:11:33 PM
Would paying professional football, baseball, and basketball players $125K have any effect on their performance?
 
2013-02-04 11:47:13 PM
Teachers who don't have to work three jobs can plan better lessons.
 
2013-02-04 11:53:24 PM

doglover: Teachers who don't have to work three jobs can plan better lessons.


Nonsense, it's uniquely American to work three jobs.  It's fantastic if a teacher is doing that.
 
2013-02-04 11:57:52 PM
And that's still not enough money to put up with all the little monsters.
 
2013-02-05 12:29:41 AM

FloydA: Would paying professional football, baseball, and basketball players $125K have any effect on their performance?


For the analogy to hold you'd have to measure the audience's performance.
 
2013-02-05 12:34:04 AM

fusillade762: FloydA: Would paying professional football, baseball, and basketball players $125K have any effect on their performance?

For the analogy to hold you'd have to measure the audience's performance.


I bet kids would perform really well if tested them in body paint, loud yelling, eating nachos, and poorly made signs.
 
2013-02-05 12:39:56 AM
Please, for the love of god, let this strategy work.
 
2013-02-05 12:57:45 AM

fusillade762: For the analogy to hold you'd have to measure the audience's performance.


I'm not joking here. I really wish throngs of drunken high school dropouts would get as excited for math and science test scores as they do professional sports.
 
2013-02-05 01:00:05 AM

fusillade762: FloydA: Would paying professional football, baseball, and basketball players $125K have any effect on their performance?

For the analogy to hold you'd have to measure the audience's performance.


Doesn't Nielsen do that already?
 
2013-02-05 01:01:19 AM

Bashar and Asma's Infinite Playlist: fusillade762: For the analogy to hold you'd have to measure the audience's performance.

I'm not joking here. I really wish throngs of drunken high school dropouts would get as excited for math and science test scores as they do professional sports.


If we let them bet on the outcomes, and paid scientists athlete money, they would.
 
2013-02-05 01:06:26 AM
While the increased pay would certainly help with motivation, it's not going to do a thing unless...

a.) administrators (and politicians) stop doing every asinine thing to interfere with how and what teachers teach
b.) teachers are properly trained on how to present material as well as having adequate knowledge of their subject (and given chances and adequate funding to do such training periodically)
c.) class sizes are decreased and classes are separated by ability

Hell, if I could have those three things happen (including being given adequate time and funding for b.) to happen to continue improving), I wouldn't need the pay raise (though it would, of course, be nice). Hell, I'd be willing to double my teaching hours for the same salary if it meant I could cut my class sizes in half and separate the halves based on ability and interest.

Granted, I'm not teaching in a US school system, so YMMV. But I have a feeling that those three things are pretty universal.

But still, I definitely wouldn't say no to a raise. ;)
 
2013-02-05 01:09:22 AM

BarkingUnicorn: Turnover may skyrocket due to burnout, but while they're their there they're they're there producing results


Sorry, pet peave.
 
2013-02-05 01:16:40 AM

doglover: If we let them bet on the outcomes, and paid scientists athlete money, they would.


"And Dr. Filmore Bernstein has been traded to UC Berkeley. What effect do you think this will have on their salary cap, Nicolai?"

"Well Bernstein is one of the best theoretical physics hands-men out there, but UC Berkeley is already drowning in environmental science grad students. They may have to cut some of the team to make salary cap room."

"Won't that help their rivals at UCLA?"

"We'll just have to wait and see, Dave! That's what makes science education the best sport on earth!"
 
2013-02-05 01:16:53 AM
Oh, forgot one...

d.) Stop blaming the teacher if a student is doing poorly

Yes, if an entire class has poor performance, then the teacher and his/her abilities need to be looked at, and assistance or discipline needs to be applied. However, if it is only a few, then maybe, just maybe the problem is not with the teacher but with the student. So, stop blaming us if your precious little snowflake is screwing around and not doing the work and then ends up failing. Do some damn parenting and help us out by not producing little shiat-heads. :p
 
2013-02-05 01:18:32 AM

tallguywithglasseson: BarkingUnicorn: Turnover may skyrocket due to burnout, but while they're their there they're they're there producing results

Sorry, pet peave.


WTF did you just do? LOL!

And it's "peeve."
 
2013-02-05 01:22:37 AM

BarkingUnicorn: tallguywithglasseson: BarkingUnicorn: Turnover may skyrocket due to burnout, but while they're their there they're they're there producing results

Sorry, pet peave.

WTF did you just do? LOL!

And it's "peeve."


pieve.
 
2013-02-05 01:25:30 AM

mamoru: BarkingUnicorn: tallguywithglasseson: BarkingUnicorn: Turnover may skyrocket due to burnout, but while they're their there they're they're there producing results

Sorry, pet peave.

WTF did you just do? LOL!

And it's "peeve."

pieve.


If you play Scrabble, you may get shot.
 
2013-02-05 02:22:05 AM

BarkingUnicorn: tallguywithglasseson: BarkingUnicorn: Turnover may skyrocket due to burnout, but while they're their there they're they're there producing results

Sorry, pet peave.

WTF did you just do? LOL!

And it's "peeve."


*thatsthejoke.gif*
 
2013-02-05 02:26:09 AM

mamoru: Hell, I'd be willing to double my teaching hours for the same salary if it meant I could cut my class sizes in half and separate the halves based on ability and interest.


Double? There are not enough hours in the day for me to double my teaching time. Sure, I do some days with 1 lesson. Tomorrow will be one such. But usually I've got the McDonald's schedule going on. 4-6 lessons at one of several public schools in the day, class size 32-40, followed by 4-6 more at night one on one with adult students.

It's grueling.

I'd be willing to halve my working hours or even reduce them to a third for a raise to real salary, though. It doesn't sound like a good offer phrased that way, but what it actually means is that your kid's one of a few dozen students I can focus on as opposed to one of over a 1000 kids I have to entertain without getting winded because I'm going to be up till midnight fixing people's sentences regardless of the effort I spend on that morning class.
 
2013-02-05 04:17:12 AM
@doglover, been there, done that. Unless you can get a full time contract at a single school, teaching English in general and specifically in Japan pretty much sucks. I'm very glad I'm don't teach English anymore.

But, "double" is a bit of an exaggeration, as I currently have 24 hrs of class time per week, and 48 would be impossible. Perhaps if I could drop a couple of classes (maybe my 7th grade math classes so I could focus solely on 10, 11, 12 biology classes) then double hours with half class sizes (so 36 hrs/wk) would be such a good thing.

Overall point is that smaller classes would be so nice that I'd rather have that than a salary increase.
 
2013-02-05 04:20:26 AM
I'm also very glad that the fact I don't teach English any more was made quite obvious in the sentence where I stated it. :-/
 
2013-02-05 05:08:50 AM

mamoru: I'm also very glad that the fact I don't teach English any more was made quite obvious in the sentence where I stated it. :-/


I know, but the filthy liters might not.

DON'T TEACH ENGLISH!
 
2013-02-05 05:18:20 AM
The large amount of money would attract a large pool of candidates to apply, essentially allowing the school to pick their dream team staff, which should result in better test scores.
 
2013-02-05 05:23:08 AM
Lol public schools
 
2013-02-05 05:25:16 AM
Is that even particularly high for NYC?  Doesn't it cost like a billion and five dollars just to make rent in some parts?
 
2013-02-05 05:26:41 AM
A friend of line started teaching math at a local high school this year and he's already burnt out dealing with unruly kids and their dumb parents.

He writes up 6 to 10 kids a week and most of the are for telling them to put up their phones which makes them mad and they call him a mother farker.


Then the parents blame him for their little snow flake getting an F in his class and are just shocked and don't believe that their kids would lie and not do their home work or play with phones all day in class rather than paying attention to what is being taught.
 
2013-02-05 05:29:58 AM
Isnt $125,000 in New York approximately equal to $37,000 in the "fly over states" ?
 
2013-02-05 05:32:03 AM
Raise the pay to attract the people and raise the standards to get in.  Yeah, I can see that works as long as the standards include in-depth knowledge of the topics being taught and screening tests to prove it.  And as someone said, get the politicians out of the way to end the micromanaging.  Let the good teachers teach!

Could try the same with Police Departments.  (Minus the union "Protect them all or else" mentality though).  Raise the salary to the point that many more try to become officers, and don't let anyone in that has broken the law in the past, get rid of anyone acting like a bully with a badge, etc.

Lets be realistic, when you pay people crap, you don't exactly get the cream of the crop applying...
 
2013-02-05 05:32:06 AM
Since all the teachers seem to like farking their kids these days, make THAT be the incentive for better grades.

C average - handjob

B average - oral

A average - the whole tour!
 
2013-02-05 05:35:18 AM
No matter the outcome, we all win. If the scores go up (and stay up) then it proves that teacher saleries are too low. If not, it may prove that teachers are not the problem, and we need to start up elite schools for kids that want to perform and "dumb dumb" schools for the ones that scream out "when will I ever need to know this in real life" during class. Then let's try the experiment again, and see if raising saleries for teachers does anything.

There is a small chance that raising saleries actually reduces student performance. That would be a terrible, but facinating outcome.
 
2013-02-05 05:38:44 AM
maybe if the schools were not there to be daycare...
 
2013-02-05 05:40:26 AM
The job deserves the compensation, make no mistake (especially the zero support at TEP).

But a second lever needs to be pulled in order for those kids to succeed: a home where homework is a concern, bedtime is a habit, and breakfast is a guarantee.
 
2013-02-05 05:40:54 AM

AmbassadorBooze: ... ones that scream out "when will I ever need to know this in real life" during class...


Perhaps the onus would be on the teachers to, I dunno, connect what they're trying to teach with real-world applications?

Half the stuff I wish I remembered well enough, that I was taught in highschool? I didn't find a use for it until about a year and a half ago. And my 10 year reunion is coming up.
 
2013-02-05 05:43:13 AM
Or we could try readkng to our kids. And reading ourselves so that they realize that education and scholarship are valuable. Kids pick up on that stuff. Raise a child in a dumb culture, you get an underperforming kid. Apple falling near tbe tree and all that.
 
2013-02-05 05:45:50 AM
Repeal the mandatory attendance laws and boot the ones that don't want to be there.  I have a kid that is really enjoying driving every adult nuts, just for the attention.  Totally disruptive in class, completely disengaged, dumb as a box of rocks, and is simply marking time until the magic age of emanicipation is reached.  Everyone from case worker, to bio-parents, to foster parents, to teachers is fed up with the fact that all the adult hands are tied by laws that punish us instead of just turning the kid over to juvenile for the orange jumpsuit.

Rant over, going for coffee.  BBL
 
2013-02-05 05:45:56 AM

Evilnissan: A friend of line started teaching math at a local high school this year and he's already burnt out dealing with unruly kids and their dumb parents.

He writes up 6 to 10 kids a week and most of the are for telling them to put up their phones which makes them mad and they call him a mother farker.


Then the parents blame him for their little snow flake getting an F in his class and are just shocked and don't believe that their kids would lie and not do their home work or play with phones all day in class rather than paying attention to what is being taught.


Cameras in each class to keep students and teachers honest. Boot any kid who breaks the rules x number of times.

Seriously, just expel kids who won't put the phones down, let their parents figure out what to do for daycare.
 
2013-02-05 05:47:10 AM
Fark that. They can google life's questions.
 
2013-02-05 05:48:12 AM

fusillade762: FloydA: Would paying professional football, baseball, and basketball players $125K have any effect on their performance?

For the analogy to hold you'd have to measure the audience's performance.


No, you would have to measure the on field performance.  Meaning what they are getting paid to do.

Teachers get paid to impart knowledge on the students.

/ paying CURRENT teachers twice as much wont help.  paying BETTER people to walk away from their jobs to become teachers by making it pay six figures would.  so when this fails, it wont have proven anything.
// not trying to talk bad about current teachers, but the reason you get better doctors by paying them more is because the driven and or smart people chose that field because of the income potential.
 
2013-02-05 05:48:43 AM

BarkingUnicorn: tallguywithglasseson: BarkingUnicorn: Turnover may skyrocket due to burnout, but while they're their there they're they're there producing results

Sorry, pet peave.

WTF did you just do? LOL!

And it's "peeve."


*Looks at unicorm's profile.*  Yup, a newbie. That's so sweet...
 
2013-02-05 05:50:37 AM

DO NOT WANT Poster Girl: Evilnissan: A friend of line started teaching math at a local high school this year and he's already burnt out dealing with unruly kids and their dumb parents.

He writes up 6 to 10 kids a week and most of the are for telling them to put up their phones which makes them mad and they call him a mother farker.


Then the parents blame him for their little snow flake getting an F in his class and are just shocked and don't believe that their kids would lie and not do their home work or play with phones all day in class rather than paying attention to what is being taught.

Cameras in each class to keep students and teachers honest. Boot any kid who breaks the rules x number of times.

Seriously, just expel kids who won't put the phones down, let their parents figure out what to do for daycare.


Stop giving children purchase power.
 
2013-02-05 05:52:00 AM
Also, keep in mind that 125,000 in NYC is chump change.   Nice pay for a teacher, but crap when compared to what  all the other white collar workers are making.
 
2013-02-05 05:54:39 AM

Summercat: AmbassadorBooze: ... ones that scream out "when will I ever need to know this in real life" during class...

Perhaps the onus would be on the teachers to, I dunno, connect what they're trying to teach with real-world applications?

Half the stuff I wish I remembered well enough, that I was taught in highschool? I didn't find a use for it until about a year and a half ago. And my 10 year reunion is coming up.


I respect the coment (and that would probably work somewhat), but I I don't think we value education as a society enough. As for finding real world applications, I am a farmer and have found use for fractal analysis and low level calculus. I kept all my college textbooks, and the only ones I don't at least crack open once a year are the art history and english books. I am teching myself hobby level electronics and micro controller programming to build some automated equipment. So I believe it is more in the individual to use education, than to be told what value a particular topic is.
 
2013-02-05 06:03:11 AM

fusillade762: FloydA: Would paying professional football, baseball, and basketball players $125K have any effect on their performance?

For the analogy to hold you'd have to measure the audience's performance.


Economists do that sort of thing. Check this Planet Money from 2010 when they studied the effects of LeBron James moving to Miami and the effects of human happiness.
 
2013-02-05 06:10:14 AM
everybody tells me so
 
2013-02-05 06:10:40 AM
First of all- most people when entering a carrer field are smart enough to investigate things like salaries and benefits before they hire on, so its not like they were sideswiped with a job that didn't meet their financial expectations.

I would say yes, initially yes- performance would improve.  You get more, there is a reasonable expectation that your scope of responsibility would increase so either (or your employer) feel the need to enhance your performance to justify that increase- which by the way-- will not address teacher burnout.   After a few years when 125k has become the norm? Not really.

The national average wage index for 2011 was 42,979.61 which happens to be the national average for teachers as well.  New York starting pay at 45K with a bachelors, and 55K with a masters.  Keeping in mind the cost of living within the city of New York, I'd say their pay was right in line with national average. Keeping in mind there is a reasonable expectation of salary increases by teachers all across the United States, I'm not sure if the teachers of New York are special enough to warrant a 200+% increase in pay however.  I probably need not mention the unfair advantage New York would have when hiring the best the nation has to offer, nor the stress of having to meet the standard to maintain your current position as a teacher in New York.

 Any Farkers out there from NY care to weigh in on where they plan to get the extra money to pay for the increase in salaries (and retirement packages).
 
2013-02-05 06:12:14 AM
the fact that they're not making 125k already is terrifying me.  why would someone want to live in such a place without at least a 7 figure income??
 
2013-02-05 06:23:07 AM
"How much pay is required for a person to make their career the center of their entire being/life and ignore friends & family & personal health?"

or

"How's about we make these Golden Handcuffs a bit heavier? Will ya stay longer or die trying?"

I look forward to the follow-up article in 5 years when more that 1/2 of these dedicated teachers lose their minds.
 
2013-02-05 06:24:09 AM
Yes, teachers should be paid more. But, if you really want student performance to increase, you have to find a way to increase the parent give a f*ck factor. That's a major part of the problem... And for crying out loud, stop teaching to the ridiculous SOL test! It's nothing but a handcuff.

My wife is a public school teacher, making me an indisputable expert.

Thread over.
 
2013-02-05 06:26:44 AM

EZ Writer: Yes, teachers should be paid more. But, if you really want student performance to increase, you have to find a way to increase the parent give a f*ck factor. That's a major part of the problem... And for crying out loud, stop teaching to the ridiculous SOL test! It's nothing but a handcuff.

My wife is a public school teacher, making me an indisputable expert.

Thread over.


us.123rf.com
 
2013-02-05 06:28:28 AM
I was a sixth grade teacher 17 years ago, an eager, energetic young man with visions of doing good for the world through dedication to this profession, and boy did it humble me.  What a horrible, horrible job that was.  I cried like a baby on many Sunday nights, knowing that no matter what I did, each day would be derailed into chaos by five or six students.  Nothing would stop them...because ultimately, their parents didn't care. 

To be the kind of person who can pull off consistent great teaching in today's world, one has to excel at many things...on one hand, being an empathetic person who's also creative, energetic and intelligent with subject matter.  On the other, a fantastic air-traffic controller.  That sort of skill set would earn you many times that amount of money in other professions!   And who, in their right mind, would do it?

I had the good personable skills and content intelligence, lacked the air traffic control skills, and paid the price.  After two years of a living Hell, the best thing I ever did was leave that profession.  I refused to give in and be a marine drill sargent who passed out worksheets all day in order to survive the job. 

All that for $26,900 in 1995. 

/Never psychologically recovered, either.  If you're like me in your first year and suicidal, DON'T stick it out for two years to prove how tough you are.
 
2013-02-05 06:40:54 AM
I doubt it. It would probably be better to hire more teachers or teacher assistants or tutors. I bet that smaller class sizes and more one-on-one time for those students who need it would help more.
 
2013-02-05 06:45:40 AM

FloydA: Would paying professional football, baseball, and basketball players $125K have any effect on their performance?


There was a TED talk about what motivates us and it claimed that physical performance differs from mental peformance when it comes to monetary reward. For physical tasks, it does make for improvements when more money is offered but not for mental tasks.
 
2013-02-05 06:46:43 AM
Pay them for the hours they spend making lesson plans, PTA meetings, and grading papers. It probably would double most teachers' salaries.
 
2013-02-05 06:50:42 AM

mamoru: While the increased pay would certainly help with motivation, it's not going to do a thing unless...

a.) administrators (and politicians) stop doing every asinine thing to interfere with how and what teachers teach
b.) teachers are properly trained on how to present material as well as having adequate knowledge of their subject (and given chances and adequate funding to do such training periodically)
c.) class sizes are decreased and classes are separated by ability

Hell, if I could have those three things happen (including being given adequate time and funding for b.) to happen to continue improving), I wouldn't need the pay raise (though it would, of course, be nice). Hell, I'd be willing to double my teaching hours for the same salary if it meant I could cut my class sizes in half and separate the halves based on ability and interest.

Granted, I'm not teaching in a US school system, so YMMV. But I have a feeling that those three things are pretty universal.

But still, I definitely wouldn't say no to a raise. ;)


Here we separate kidsinto 6 levels according to scholastic results at age 12. The highest 2 levels (HAVO and VWO) has stuff in year 2 of 6 that the "regular" to low levels (VMBO which has 4 tiers) have at the end of year 4 of 4. The smart kids got in depth information at a higher pace while the others could spend additional weeks learning what a sine is or how to find x is a basic sum.

You also notice the seperation in the school environment. I have a ti-83 that I sometimes left at a table while I was away for an hour or two. Nothing ever happened to it. A few years after I graduated they let some of the VMBO classes be held in our building due to renovations. Suddenly all kinds of stuff went missing. If someone noticed your wallet? gone. Calculator? Gone.

/Glad I was away at that point.
 
2013-02-05 06:51:06 AM
Also, money is poorly spent. For example $15,000 per student is paid by the city of Baltimore for public education link

That money is NOT going to better teachers or to school supplies. Where does it all go?
 
2013-02-05 06:54:08 AM
They would biatch that it was not enough and want a 20% raise.
 
2013-02-05 06:58:13 AM
With that kind of money I bet they will attract more hot teachers to bang students.
 
2013-02-05 06:59:55 AM

mamoru: While the increased pay would certainly help with motivation, it's not going to do a thing unless...

b.) teachers are properly trained on how to present material as well as having adequate knowledge of their subject (and given chances and adequate funding to do such training periodically)


As a parent with five kids in public school, this gets me.  I had two kids in freshman science last year.  One teacher taught the class; one sent home worksheets and spent class time on Facebook and YouTube.  This year, the student who had FB teacher constantly hears, "You should have learned that last year."

I have no problem paying the teachers who are there to teach.  We've had many of those.  The ones who are there for vacations need to be sent packing.  We've had plenty of those, too.
 
2013-02-05 07:00:31 AM

Befuddled: I doubt it. It would probably be better to hire more teachers or teacher assistants or tutors. I bet that smaller class sizes and more one-on-one time for those students who need it would help more.


Eitehr way, it only addresses the least of three problems. It does not address the problem of bloated, inefficient administration, nor does it address the huge, hulking elephant in the living room - the attitudes of parents.
They expect the schools to educate and socialize the undisciplined little monsters they have raise without any inconvenience to them, and without ever rustling said little monsters precious jimmies in any way.
And to have it done by people they hold in contempt, and treat like garbage collectors.
Until that changes, nothing anybody does is going to help.
 
2013-02-05 07:02:16 AM
It would provide some benefit in that it would attract more qualified applicants to the teaching ranks. With better applicants, schools would be able to hire better/smarter teachers, relative to now.

Would the benefit/improvement be worth the cost? Probably not, as I agree with those above who have said the problem is not with the teachers but with the students. It's GIGO. The best carpenter in the world couldn't make fine furniture from a rotted piece of lumber.
 
2013-02-05 07:04:37 AM

EZ Writer: Yes, teachers should be paid more. But, if you really want student performance to increase, you have to find a way to increase the parent give a f*ck factor. That's a major part of the problem... And for crying out loud, stop teaching to the ridiculous SOL test! It's nothing but a handcuff.

My wife is a public school teacher, making me an indisputable expert.

Thread over.


Where exactly does your wife work that none of her co-workers are part of the problem?  "Poorly educated" or "failing to give even the minimum required number of farks" described about 3/4 of the teachers when I worked public schools.

Actually I'd say that something like half the reason the US trails in most subjects at the primary/secondary level is that we allow people to teach with an "education" degree, which is a major that people with real degrees in undergrad use as shorthand to insult each others' intelligence.

And half the remaining problems are a complete lack of teacher accountability for anything short of a major felony.  I mean, look at the anti-standardized test people.  They're not suggesting some better form of performance metric, they're suggesting that  teachers arbitrarily get to rate their own performance, with a monetary incentive to say they're doing well.  And with the way the unions work in some states no one can get fired, ever.

But sure, blame the other 25% on the parents, go for it.  That said, we cannot magically force people to behave responsibly on their own time.  Instead of passing the buck every time the issue comes up, primary/secondary needs to get its own house in order.

//Teacher salaries are actually perfectly in-line with other jobs requiring generalist or academic degrees.  The "not paid enough" line hasn't been valid since like the 1970s, if then.
 
2013-02-05 07:17:54 AM
The schools with the highest paid teachers in my county is also the schools with the lowest test scores for decades now. Higher teacher/administrator salaries do not equate to better student performance. Though, that does pose the question of what impact simply putting that money into teaching supplies/equipment by itself would make.
 
2013-02-05 07:22:47 AM
It depends.

Are they going to go out and find the very best teachers in the country, or otherwise get experts in various fields (who would have at least some teaching background) to come in?

Or are they just going to give teachers who are already there a giant raise?
 
2013-02-05 07:24:53 AM

EZ Writer: Yes, teachers should be paid more. But, if you really want student performance to increase, you have to find a way to increase the parent give a f*ck factor. That's a major part of the problem...


Came here to say this. The decline in education came when both parents were either too busy working jobs to care or they thought they could outsource their parenting to the schools and siblings because the kids were "holding them back". I'm not a fan of dumping money at the problem while looking the other way from the causes of it.
 
2013-02-05 07:26:24 AM
Why not? It works for politicians.
 
2013-02-05 07:26:34 AM
Just raising a teacher's salary won't make them a better teacher. A shiatty teacher is a shiatty teacher at any price. The idea should be that the higher salary attracts people to the teaching profession who otherwise would have made more money in another business or industry.
 
2013-02-05 07:29:12 AM
Sure, if you empower them to do what they need to.

Allow them to whip out Ol' Spanky when it's appropriate.
 
2013-02-05 07:29:54 AM
FTA "We give our master teachers one year to prove themselves"

For first year teachers with no real lesson plans, no experience, no time proven testing methods, no experience with a class room of crazy children, this goal will be impossible to meet. Either the turnover will be ridiculous at that school or they are hiring teachers near retirement age and nothing to lose.
 
2013-02-05 07:31:29 AM

BarkingUnicorn: So, cut frills and make each teacher do two jobs


That's a pay cut. So i guess you're against the raise idea. Thanks for giving it a chance though.
 
2013-02-05 07:33:34 AM
Get rid of standardized testing, all of it. Get some decent textbooks written by actual experts in the field, not people who do nothing but write school textbooks, stop pushing homework so much, don't over do tests, and actually engage students. When you shovel lessons at students as something they just need to suck down with no thought of actually engaging them, having them think or having any idea what any sort of point in it all is, you get problems.
 
2013-02-05 07:34:04 AM
No, in five years they will all strike to earn 175k a year. I get a kick out of the philosiphy of "if we pay our teachers more, we could get better teachers in our school district." This would make the "good" teachers leave their district or force the district to pay them more.

More money does not mean better teachers and higher test scores.

End tenure and hold teachers more responsible for their students knowledge advancement.
 
2013-02-05 07:35:54 AM

mamoru: Oh, forgot one...

d.) Stop blaming the teacher if a student is doing poorly

Yes, if an entire class has poor performance, then the teacher and his/her abilities need to be looked at, and assistance or discipline needs to be applied. However, if it is only a few, then maybe, just maybe the problem is not with the teacher but with the student. So, stop blaming us if your precious little snowflake is screwing around and not doing the work and then ends up failing. Do some damn parenting and help us out by not producing little shiat-heads. :p


It must suck to be parent and teacher all at once, but it seems that's what we expect of our educators.
 
2013-02-05 07:36:52 AM

mrsjdmcd: mamoru: While the increased pay would certainly help with motivation, it's not going to do a thing unless...

b.) teachers are properly trained on how to present material as well as having adequate knowledge of their subject (and given chances and adequate funding to do such training periodically)

As a parent with five kids in public school, this gets me.  I had two kids in freshman science last year.  One teacher taught the class; one sent home worksheets and spent class time on Facebook and YouTube.  This year, the student who had FB teacher constantly hears, "You should have learned that last year."

I have no problem paying the teachers who are there to teach.  We've had many of those.  The ones who are there for vacations need to be sent packing.  We've had plenty of those, too.


In Pennsylvania, once they get their tenure, it's extremely hard to get rid of them. My school years were over before there was Facebook and YouTube, so instead I had teachers that drank whisky and read magazines but couldn't be fired because they'd been there 20 years and had tenure.

Same problem continues with new technology to enable it.
 
2013-02-05 07:37:35 AM
Back about 8 or so years ago, I was thinking about changing careers and didn't know what I wanted to do.  Getting full-time work in the IT industry wasn't cutting it.  I thought about teaching.  I got the opportunity to observe what teachers these days do in elementary school, so I sat in and watched.

By about 10 AM I was like 'AW HELL NAW.'

The rest, of course, is history.
 
2013-02-05 07:38:14 AM

EZ Writer: Yes, teachers should be paid more. But, if you really want student performance to increase, you have to find a way to increase the parent give a f*ck factor. That's a major part of the problem... And for crying out loud, stop teaching to the ridiculous SOL test! It's nothing but a handcuff.

My wife is a public school teacher, making me an indisputable expert.

Thread over.


it's not just one side. Teachers need to be held just as responsible as the parents and the student themselves. Maybe if all of the teachers gave a fark we would be in a better place.
 
2013-02-05 07:39:40 AM

WhyteRaven74: Get some decent textbooks written by actual experts in the field


I make sure my son only goes to school where they issue "Authentic" Texas Board of Education (tm) textbooks.  I'll accept nothing less.
 
2013-02-05 07:40:58 AM

heili skrimsli: tenure


I could never understand what the thinking was behind that.  If I worked here for 20 years and suddenly one day decided to slack off and watch pr0n or drink while at work, I'd be out on my ass.
 
2013-02-05 07:42:30 AM

doglover: mamoru: I'm also very glad that the fact I don't teach English any more was made quite obvious in the sentence where I stated it. :-/

I know, but the filthy liters might not.

DON'T TEACH ENGLISH IN JAPAN!

 
2013-02-05 07:45:18 AM

great_tigers: End tenure and hold teachers more responsible for their students knowledge advancement.


If you pay more you might get some people who would otherwise do other things. Granted you'd have to accept that some of these people may have some slightly radical ideas, you may end up with math teachers who think anyone with a pulse can learn basic calculus, and worse, they'll prove it.
 
2013-02-05 07:47:11 AM

thisisarepeat: Isnt $125,000 in New York approximately equal to $37,000 in the "fly over states" ?


farkingnotworking: Also, keep in mind that 125,000 in NYC is chump change.   Nice pay for a teacher, but crap when compared to what  all the other white collar workers are making.


Jon iz teh kewl: the fact that they're not making 125k already is terrifying me.  why would someone want to live in such a place without at least a 7 figure income??


The median family income in NYC is 66k.
 
2013-02-05 07:52:35 AM

WhyteRaven74: great_tigers: End tenure and hold teachers more responsible for their students knowledge advancement.

If you pay more you might get some people who would otherwise do other things. Granted you'd have to accept that some of these people may have some slightly radical ideas, you may end up with math teachers who think anyone with a pulse can learn basic calculus, and worse, they'll prove it.


that's why you fire them. There are tons of teachers looking for work.
 
2013-02-05 07:58:35 AM
Um, have you thought about paying the students instead? They're the ones whose performance you're really trying to improve, right? Why pay the teachers more?
 
2013-02-05 07:58:38 AM
Or, you know, we could cut out all this crap that every child can be an doctor or engineer and start teaching some of them that there's no shame in trades. We all had those kids in our classes we knew were never going to college but spent their weekends working on cars or building things. Sure, maybe they can't understand string theory or calculus but they could take apart and put back together a car with a butterknife or spot weld blindfolded. I'm a crane operator and I'm much happier working outside with my hands then I ever would have been in an office.
 
2013-02-05 08:03:47 AM

amquelbettamin: Pay them for the hours they spend making lesson plans, PTA meetings, and grading papers. It probably would double most teachers' salaries.


Bls.gov has work hours by job. Teachers self reported hours is below average worker hours.

Stop the myth of teachers working longer hours. Reports dont line up.
 
2013-02-05 08:05:41 AM

doglover: Teachers who don't have to work three jobs can plan better lessons.


Ah the sniveling of the "poor" teachers

NYC Median income 2012 $56,951

In the 2008-2009 school year, the 50th percentile of teacher salary earnings in New York City was $69,901, according to the New York State Education Department


Link

Median household income for Michigan $48,669

Michigan elementary school teachers on average earned $54,290 per year in May 2009

Middle school teachers in Michigan made slightly more than elementary teachers, 2009 BLS figures show, with an average annual salary of $55,270 and a median salary of $53,700 per year.

Michigan's secondary school teachers were paid an average annual salary of $52,110


It does not work in Detroit:

More than 300 teachers in the region make more than $100,000 - double the median household income - and the average top wage for a teacher with a master's degree and roughly a decade of experience is nearly $82,000

Only 7% of Detroit Public-School 8th Graders Proficient in Reading. only 4 percent scored highly enough to be rated "proficient" or better in math.
 
2013-02-05 08:09:53 AM
As an aside. I agree with more money for teachers, but at the price of less administration. School district I live in siphons off 45% of funds for an incompetent admin. In the late 70s it was only 25% but student test scores were the same.

Let high performing students advance quicker. Do not slow the smart down in the name of self esteem for the dumb. Hold kids back, stop passing failing kids.
 
2013-02-05 08:10:00 AM

mamoru: @doglover, been there, done that. Unless you can get a full time contract at a single school, teaching English in general and specifically in Japan pretty much sucks. I'm very glad I'm don't teach English anymore.

But, "double" is a bit of an exaggeration, as I currently have 24 hrs of class time per week, and 48 would be impossible. Perhaps if I could drop a couple of classes (maybe my 7th grade math classes so I could focus solely on 10, 11, 12 biology classes) then double hours with half class sizes (so 36 hrs/wk) would be such a good thing.

Overall point is that smaller classes would be so nice that I'd rather have that than a salary increase.


So, you're wanting to work less for more pay. I get it.
 
2013-02-05 08:12:53 AM

Jim_Callahan: EZ Writer: Yes, teachers should be paid more. But, if you really want student performance to increase, you have to find a way to increase the parent give a f*ck factor. That's a major part of the problem... And for crying out loud, stop teaching to the ridiculous SOL test! It's nothing but a handcuff.

My wife is a public school teacher, making me an indisputable expert.

Thread over.

Where exactly does your wife work that none of her co-workers are part of the problem?  "Poorly educated" or "failing to give even the minimum required number of farks" described about 3/4 of the teachers when I worked public schools.

Actually I'd say that something like half the reason the US trails in most subjects at the primary/secondary level is that we allow people to teach with an "education" degree, which is a major that people with real degrees in undergrad use as shorthand to insult each others' intelligence.


The teachers who are "Poorly educated" or "failing to give even the minimum required number of farks" are in the best positions to succeed long-term under the current education system.

If you have the content mastered, why would you bang your head against the wall to do crowd control every day when you could have much less stress at almost any other job?  If employees are disruptive or won't work then they are fired.  If students are disruptive or won't work then it's just another part of the teacher's job to somehow fix someone else's attitude.  Everyone wants public school teachers to have college professor level knowledge but also do the work that's done by TAs and secretaries for those professors.

Caring about students too deeply gives emotional highs and lows but, just like being a doctor, you have to learn to separate yourself or you will just burn out emotionally.  The old jaded teachers are the ones who've learned that lesson.  Emotional separation is seen as a plus in a doctor and as a huge negative in a teacher.
 
2013-02-05 08:13:10 AM
Notice in some locations where teachers are paid above average they have some of the poorest performing schools-like Waashington DC. Conversely some locations with low teacher pay do better in perforamnce.


www.teachersalaryinfo.comhttp://www.teachersalaryinfo.com/images/datacharts-2.gif">


Average Teacher Salary Compared to Median Household Income.

Note: this chart compares one teacher's salary with that of a "household" income. So according to this chart, it is better to be in a state with bars on the right side of the chart, which means a teacher in that state makes more than the Median Household Income for that state
 
2013-02-05 08:13:16 AM

alwaysjaded: Or, you know, we could cut out all this crap that every child can be an doctor or engineer and start teaching some of them that there's no shame in trades. We all had those kids in our classes we knew were never going to college but spent their weekends working on cars or building things. Sure, maybe they can't understand string theory or calculus but they could take apart and put back together a car with a butterknife or spot weld blindfolded. I'm a crane operator and I'm much happier working outside with my hands then I ever would have been in an office.


You're spot on.  I've currently got a son with two Ds and a C (algebra, biology, and English).  Give him something to take apart and put back together, no problem.
 
2013-02-05 08:14:54 AM

Tumunga: mamoru: @doglover, been there, done that. Unless you can get a full time contract at a single school, teaching English in general and specifically in Japan pretty much sucks. I'm very glad I'm don't teach English anymore.

But, "double" is a bit of an exaggeration, as I currently have 24 hrs of class time per week, and 48 would be impossible. Perhaps if I could drop a couple of classes (maybe my 7th grade math classes so I could focus solely on 10, 11, 12 biology classes) then double hours with half class sizes (so 36 hrs/wk) would be such a good thing.

Overall point is that smaller classes would be so nice that I'd rather have that than a salary increase.

So, you're wanting to work less for more pay. I get it.


Wat?
 
2013-02-05 08:16:14 AM

Tumunga: So, you're wanting to work less for more pay. I get it.


Your math teachers obviously failed you, if you think the suggestion of having more teaching hours for the same pay is somehow equal to less work for more pay.
 
2013-02-05 08:17:47 AM

MyRandomName: amquelbettamin: Pay them for the hours they spend making lesson plans, PTA meetings, and grading papers. It probably would double most teachers' salaries.

Bls.gov has work hours by job. Teachers self reported hours is below average worker hours.

Stop the myth of teachers working longer hours. Reports dont line up.


Can you link to that report?  I'm looking at BLS and not finding it.
 
2013-02-05 08:17:47 AM
Might work.

They cut the unions out of the deal and make the teachers compete for the jobs. Which means, assuming the hiring folks knew their asses from a hole in the ground, they should have been able to find The Best And The Brightest.

We'll see how well that works out for them once the students come into play.

Of course, since it's a charter school, they were able to be selective about their students, too.
 
2013-02-05 08:20:43 AM

great_tigers: No, in five years they will all strike to earn 175k a year. I get a kick out of the philosiphy of "if we pay our teachers more, we could get better teachers in our school district." This would make the "good" teachers leave their district or force the district to pay them more.

More money does not mean better teachers and higher test scores.

End tenure and hold teachers more responsible for their students knowledge advancement.


Charter school. No union, no strikes. Try again.
 
2013-02-05 08:21:05 AM
Paying a decent wage AND finding teachers that are competent will improve performance in schools.  Throwing money at a problem is never a solution.
 
2013-02-05 08:23:29 AM

hasty ambush: Notice in some locations where teachers are paid above average they have some of the poorest performing schools-like Waashington DC. Conversely some locations with low teacher pay do better in perforamnce.



Teachers get paid more in poorly-performing areas because no one wants to teach there.
 
2013-02-05 08:23:42 AM

mamoru: Tumunga: So, you're wanting to work less for more pay. I get it.

Your math teachers obviously failed you, if you think the suggestion of having more teaching hours for the same pay is somehow equal to less work for more pay.


If you're at work less than 2200 hours a year and earning more than $McPay, you're "working less" and getting "more pay" than most of the people that recite that refrain.

Grading papers at home isn't work, because you can do it with your pants off. You might as well be playing XBox.
 
2013-02-05 08:28:39 AM

dv-ous: Grading papers at home isn't work, because you can do it with your pants off


what is this logic ... i don't even ... ???

it's time spent on job duties that would otherwise spent on non-job duties. how is that not "work"?

the absence or presence of pants is a red herring.
 
2013-02-05 08:30:31 AM

RabidJade: The decline in education came when both parents were either too busy working jobs to care or they thought they could outsource their parenting to the schools and siblings because the kids were "holding them back".


   Who could forget mass parent riots that lead to dropping spelling and cursive from the curriculum. Those were violent days.
 
2013-02-05 08:34:11 AM

fireclown: Or we could try readkng to our kids. And reading ourselves so that they realize that education and scholarship are valuable. Kids pick up on that stuff. Raise a child in a dumb culture, you get an underperforming kid. Apple falling near tbe tree and all that.


Psh, why do that?  All the girls in the class see Beyonce running around scantily clad up on a stage making millions.  It's obvious that all they have to do is sell themselves out to have it made.  And the boys?  It's obvious that if they want to be anything in the world all they have to do is be a rapper or an athlete.  So maybe the teachers should lay off them using their phones in class; for all they know they're penning the lyrics to their future or uploading the next big hit on youtube.
 
2013-02-05 08:35:53 AM

Mighty Taternuts: The median family income in NYC is 66k.


Two adults earning an average of $33,000 each in NYC? Hell, I make more than that, with only a 2-year degree, and in an area where the cost of living is nowhere near NYC- levels. I grew up in Poughkeepsie, and used to go down to the City on the weekend nights. Moved here in 1987, and even then, NY was incredibly expensive to live in. Even if you don't pay $350,000 for the equivalent of a walk-in closet in Manhattan, it's still expensive as hell. And then you've got to deal with Federal, State, and City taxes. While I've still got Federal and State taxes to pay, the state tax is pretty much half of NY's. One of the best parts: the acrid fumes of burnt fuel out aren't covering everything with soot and making my eyes burn here. Ironically, while NYC is supposed to be a "cultural center", what this "culture" mostly results in is denizens who can't say an entire compound sentence without sprinkling F-bombs in it.
 
2013-02-05 08:38:16 AM

MyRandomName: Hold kids back,


the people of Finland and the Czech Republic would like a word. And why should you listen? They have the best schools in Europe, and among the best in the world, some would say the best

.

dv-ous: Charter school.


What a great idea, schools that are largely inaccessible to students with special needs, even when those needs have nothing to do with intellect.
 
2013-02-05 08:40:30 AM

MNguy: MyRandomName: amquelbettamin: Pay them for the hours they spend making lesson plans, PTA meetings, and grading papers. It probably would double most teachers' salaries.

Bls.gov has work hours by job. Teachers self reported hours is below average worker hours.

Stop the myth of teachers working longer hours. Reports dont line up.

Can you link to that report?  I'm looking at BLS and not finding it.


On phone. Cant post pdf link. Art4ful.pdf.

http://www.american.com/archive/2011/december/how-many-hours-do-publi c -school-teachers-really-work

Is another mention. Has a different study.
 
2013-02-05 08:44:54 AM

WhyteRaven74: MyRandomName: Hold kids back,

the people of Finland and the Czech Republic would like a word. And why should you listen? They have the best schools in Europe, and among the best in the world, some would say the best

.dv-ous: Charter school.

What a great idea, schools that are largely inaccessible to students with special needs, even when those needs have nothing to do with intellect.


Amazing how you pointed out homogeneous populations. White kids in america match up well with those countries you list for test scores.

Are you honestly advocating promoting failing students? Does highschool students with third grade reading levels not scare you?
 
2013-02-05 08:47:01 AM

MyRandomName: MNguy: MyRandomName: amquelbettamin: Pay them for the hours they spend making lesson plans, PTA meetings, and grading papers. It probably would double most teachers' salaries.

Bls.gov has work hours by job. Teachers self reported hours is below average worker hours.

Stop the myth of teachers working longer hours. Reports dont line up.

Can you link to that report?  I'm looking at BLS and not finding it.

On phone. Cant post pdf link. Art4ful.pdf.

http://www.american.com/archive/2011/december/how-many-hours-do-publi c -school-teachers-really-work

Is another mention. Has a different study.


art4full.pdf. sorry.
 
2013-02-05 08:52:06 AM

MyRandomName: MyRandomName: MNguy: MyRandomName: amquelbettamin: Pay them for the hours they spend making lesson plans, PTA meetings, and grading papers. It probably would double most teachers' salaries.

Bls.gov has work hours by job. Teachers self reported hours is below average worker hours.

Stop the myth of teachers working longer hours. Reports dont line up.

Can you link to that report?  I'm looking at BLS and not finding it.

On phone. Cant post pdf link. Art4ful.pdf.

http://www.american.com/archive/2011/december/how-many-hours-do-publi c -school-teachers-really-work

Is another mention. Has a different study.

art4full.pdf. sorry.


Thanks.
 
2013-02-05 09:11:20 AM

mrsjdmcd: alwaysjaded: Or, you know, we could cut out all this crap that every child can be an doctor or engineer and start teaching some of them that there's no shame in trades. We all had those kids in our classes we knew were never going to college but spent their weekends working on cars or building things. Sure, maybe they can't understand string theory or calculus but they could take apart and put back together a car with a butterknife or spot weld blindfolded. I'm a crane operator and I'm much happier working outside with my hands then I ever would have been in an office.

You're spot on.  I've currently got a son with two Ds and a C (algebra, biology, and English).  Give him something to take apart and put back together, no problem.


I'm a firm believer in encouraging whatever the kids natural interests are. The ironworkers I work with say they love their jobs say they love it cause it's like playing with a giant Erector Set. People that want to learn are going to learn. I've learned more with 5 years with a solid internet connection more than I ever did in school.
 
2013-02-05 09:14:45 AM
http://stateimpact.npr.org/ohio/2011/10/05/teachers-work-fewer-hours-t han-other-professionals-and-were-not-counting-summer-vacations/

Npr report on teacher work hours.
 
2013-02-05 09:24:09 AM

MyRandomName: As an aside. I agree with more money for teachers, but at the price of less administration. School district I live in siphons off 45% of funds for an incompetent admin. In the late 70s it was only 25% but student test scores were the same.

Let high performing students advance quicker. Do not slow the smart down in the name of self esteem for the dumb. Hold kids back, stop passing failing kids.


Definitely to the last part, most to the first. It's a culture of failure. There are lots of shaity teachers out there too though. A lot of get along quite well with admin because they have something in common. They're only there to pull a check. That is the sole merit they need to succeed in the system. That is what they are training kids to do in life.
I've had some great teachers, they truly enriched my life. But no one gave a shiat either way. Not the majority of the kids, not the parents, not the admin.
At the end of day someone has to actually care.
 
2013-02-05 09:26:07 AM
More money only increases performance in the short term. No matter how much you pay someone, they eventually get used to it and start slacking. I'm typing this from work, so I would know.
 
2013-02-05 09:28:02 AM

hasty ambush: Notice in some locations where teachers are paid above average they have some of the poorest performing schools-like Waashington DC. Conversely some locations with low teacher pay do better in perforamnce.


[www.teachersalaryinfo.com image 612x792]http://www.teachersalaryinfo.com/images/datacharts-2.gif">


Average Teacher Salary Compared to Median Household Income.

Note: this chart compares one teacher's salary with that of a "household" income. So according to this chart, it is better to be in a state with bars on the right side of the chart, which means a teacher in that state makes more than the Median Household Income for that state



Let me get this straight... They are comparing a teachers salary to household income? Somehow I don't think that is a very fair comparison considering how many households consist of two incomes...
 
2013-02-05 09:29:54 AM

december: dv-ous: Grading papers at home isn't work, because you can do it with your pants off

what is this logic ... i don't even ... ???

it's time spent on job duties that would otherwise spent on non-job duties. how is that not "work"?

the absence or presence of pants is a red herring.


If the work is done with two glasses of wine and in front of the TV, it may still be work, but you don't get to count it, at least not at full value. You never hear "How long did that surgery take?" "Well, let's see, we watched three episodes of Law & Order..."
 
2013-02-05 09:34:10 AM

mamoru: While the increased pay would certainly help with motivation, it's not going to do a thing unless...

a.) administrators (and politicians) stop doing every asinine thing to interfere with how and what teachers teach
b.) teachers are properly trained on how to present material as well as having adequate knowledge of their subject (and given chances and adequate funding to do such training periodically)
c.) class sizes are decreased and classes are separated by ability

Hell, if I could have those three things happen (including being given adequate time and funding for b.) to happen to continue improving), I wouldn't need the pay raise (though it would, of course, be nice). Hell, I'd be willing to double my teaching hours for the same salary if it meant I could cut my class sizes in half and separate the halves based on ability and interest.

Granted, I'm not teaching in a US school system, so YMMV. But I have a feeling that those three things are pretty universal.

But still, I definitely wouldn't say no to a raise. ;)


A good chunk of THIS.

It would be better to cut administration by about half (if not more), and double the number of teachers to cut class sizes in half.  A slight but significant increase in salary would be useful to attract higher-ability students to teaching rather than engineering or business, but it would be less useful than doubling the number of teachers.
 
2013-02-05 09:35:01 AM
That school will have their pick of teachers, but until schools have an easier time firing bad teachers AND bad administrators nothing will change.
 
2013-02-05 09:44:46 AM

Yes please: december: dv-ous: Grading papers at home isn't work, because you can do it with your pants off

what is this logic ... i don't even ... ???

it's time spent on job duties that would otherwise spent on non-job duties. how is that not "work"?

the absence or presence of pants is a red herring.

If the work is done with two glasses of wine and in front of the TV, it may still be work, but you don't get to count it, at least not at full value. You never hear "How long did that surgery take?" "Well, let's see, we watched three episodes of Law & Order..."


hmm, i don't know ... every time i go to the grocery store or ask a secretary something i have to wait for him or her to put away the iPhone or close youtube or stop gossiping. it seem lots of jobs involve doing something other than working while working.

also, grading papers would take less time if done in my office than at home. if i choose to do it at home i'm choosing to have it take longer in exchange for being able to intermix it with things like Law & Order and wine.
 
2013-02-05 09:47:18 AM
It hasn't worked in Ontario....

/ducks
 
2013-02-05 09:53:07 AM

Mighty Taternuts: thisisarepeat: Isnt $125,000 in New York approximately equal to $37,000 in the "fly over states" ?

farkingnotworking: Also, keep in mind that 125,000 in NYC is chump change.   Nice pay for a teacher, but crap when compared to what  all the other white collar workers are making.

Jon iz teh kewl: the fact that they're not making 125k already is terrifying me.  why would someone want to live in such a place without at least a 7 figure income??

The median family income in NYC is 66k.


NY has an interesting double bell curve.
http://factfinder2.census.gov/faces/tableservices/jsf/pages/productv ie w.xhtml?src=bkmk
   Number of Households earning
$35,000 to $49,999882,191$50,000 to $74,9991,233,315$75,000 to $99,999875,786$100,000 to $149,9991,002,264$150,000 to $199,999421,066
 
2013-02-05 09:54:06 AM

mamoru: While the increased pay would certainly help with motivation, it's not going to do a thing unless...

a.) administrators (and politicians) stop doing every asinine thing to interfere with how and what teachers teach
b.) teachers are properly trained on how to present material as well as having adequate knowledge of their subject (and given chances and adequate funding to do such training periodically)
c.) class sizes are decreased and classes are separated by ability

Hell, if I could have those three things happen (including being given adequate time and funding for b.) to happen to continue improving), I wouldn't need the pay raise (though it would, of course, be nice). Hell, I'd be willing to double my teaching hours for the same salary if it meant I could cut my class sizes in half and separate the halves based on ability and interest.

Granted, I'm not teaching in a US school system, so YMMV. But I have a feeling that those three things are pretty universal.

But still, I definitely wouldn't say no to a raise. ;)


Or you could just remove a great deal of the union obstructionism that prohibits any true salary growth (outside of escalator clauses) from occuring.

I'm all for unions, but seriously, take a look at the breakdown of how much money goes to where in most of your public school systems.  When nearly 60 - 70 cents of every dollar is going towards personnel (with the rest being split between infrastructure, supplies, students)...it might be time to re-evaluate a few things.

Secondy- Teachers in public schools are government stewards.  When you get hired BY the government- you are hired with the expectation of maintaining the public trust.  Not getting rich off the taxpayers dime through schemes like overtime; sick time; pension abuse, and a 'top-dollar' salary.  Those kinds of things only lead to exhorbitant, unsustainable tax increases which places even MORE of a burden on those who can least afford it.

/I am a government employee...I knew what I got into when I put my John Hancock on the dotted line
//My job is NOT a get-rich-quick scheme
 
2013-02-05 09:55:25 AM

MindStalker: NY has an interesting double bell curve.
http://factfinder2.census.gov/faces/tableservices/jsf/pages/productv ie w.xhtml?src=bkmk
Number of Households earning

$35,000 to $49,999    882,191
$50,000 to $74,999    1,233,315
$75,000 to $99,999    875,786
$100,000 to $149,999    1,002,264
$150,000 to $199,999    421,066
 
2013-02-05 09:56:36 AM

Befuddled: FloydA: Would paying professional football, baseball, and basketball players $125K have any effect on their performance?

There was a TED talk about what motivates us and it claimed that physical performance differs from mental peformance when it comes to monetary reward. For physical tasks, it does make for improvements when more money is offered but not for mental tasks.


Douchebags in suits would like you to believe that, but they seem to only be motivated by money.  I guess I should go get an MBA, put on a suit, and get ready for some monetarily rewarding physical tasks!
 
2013-02-05 10:08:35 AM
Just paying teachers more money does not make them suddenly be better teachers. However, keeping teacher wages very low will ensure that fewer and fewer quality people go into the teaching profession. Why, if I am an intelligent, hard working, capable person, would I saddle myself with 4 years of college debt to go into a career with wages so low that I am virtually guaranteed to live most of life hovering around the poverty line? Even if I love children and have a burning desire to be a teacher, that is pretty strong motivation to go into a different field. I realize that Americans have a 30 second attention span and want instant results for everything, but that's just not going to work. You could double teacher pay today, and not see much, if any, difference in student performance in a year's time, or 2 years, or 3 years. If you doubled teacher pay and put assurances into place guaranteeing that they would stay up, then in 5, 6, 7 years down the line, you would see higher caliber people entering the profession. It's basically at least a 10 year minimum time-frame to see measurable results though, and a politician's shelf-life is 2-6 years, so it will never happen. Why would I put my neck out and propose higher teacher pay when my opponent will use it to clobber me in the election next year when we don't see instant results? Our politicians are increasingly short-sighted and do not have the desire or the will to solve problems long-term. It's our fault they are that way though. Any politician who sacrifices short-term gain to reap long-term benefits will be voted out of office long before we are able to see the benefits of his/her ideas by an opponent promising to make me feel good TODAY, dammit!
 
2013-02-05 10:26:42 AM

december: dv-ous: Grading papers at home isn't work, because you can do it with your pants off

what is this logic ... i don't even ... ???

it's time spent on job duties that would otherwise spent on non-job duties. how is that not "work"?

the absence or presence of pants is a red herring.


Actually, it was a parody; a reverse-strawman, if you will.
 
2013-02-05 10:53:13 AM
maybe if they paid the students that much, their scores would improve.  the sad fact is that upwards of 25% of students in a given school don't want to be there and don't care about learning anything.  nothing the teacher is going to do will help these kids.

the best thing to do would be to kick them out of school after 8th grade and let their parents deal with them.  if parents had to risk the possibility that their precious snowflake could get kicked out of school at age 14, you'd see more parents taking a strong interest in their children's education.  and the kids who actually want to learn could do so without three or four idiots in the class slowing everyone else down.

free education should only be given to the kids who actually work for it.
 
2013-02-05 10:58:37 AM
It is a complicated issue with a multitude of variables that significantly affect the whole system.  I've done some substitute work in elementary and middle schools, and have confirmed (to myself, anyway) that there are some woefully unintelligent (not experts in the subject matter) teachers out there and some students that just won't give a fark unless you can PROVE that there's something in it for them.

So, in the current system, I suggest we make rewards tangible for performance.  I mean: school is a job for children.  They have to go and work for some time, but they don't see the intrinsic value in knowedge.  Pay the children to go to school a base amount.  Give bonuses for good marks and fines for behavior issues.  Since they are all minors, the checks go to the parents/guardians/caregivers, and you'd be damn certain you would see parent involvement go through the roof!  Of course, where money is involved, you'd have to watch for corruption and organized crime moving in, but the unions are already there anyways...

\ KY
\\ Teachers are paid well here.
\\\ Though they keep saying they aren't...
 
2013-02-05 11:05:04 AM

enderthexenocide: maybe if they paid the students that much, their scores would improve.  the sad fact is that upwards of 25% of students in a given school don't want to be there and don't care about learning anything.  nothing the teacher is going to do will help these kids.

the best thing to do would be to kick them out of school after 8th grade and let their parents deal with them.  if parents had to risk the possibility that their precious snowflake could get kicked out of school at age 14, you'd see more parents taking a strong interest in their children's education.  and the kids who actually want to learn could do so without three or four idiots in the class slowing everyone else down.

free education should only be given to the kids who actually work for it.


I was typing mine when you posted yours.  It's the same thought, there.
Throw the money in another direction other than administration.
We've basically tried everything else, right?
 
2013-02-05 11:15:13 AM

thisisarepeat: Isnt $125,000 in New York approximately equal to $37,000 in the "fly over states" ?


That sounds elitist.

If two teachers are married, each making $125k, would have a joint income of $250k. This would make them part of the evil rich and the subject of both condemnation and vilification by the left. It would then be said that they did not earn that money and it needs to be redistributed.
 
2013-02-05 11:16:28 AM

mamoru: Oh, forgot one...

d.) Stop blaming the teacher if a student is doing poorly

Yes, if an entire class has poor performance, then the teacher and his/her abilities need to be looked at, and assistance or discipline needs to be applied. However, if it is only a few, then maybe, just maybe the problem is not with the teacher but with the student. So, stop blaming us if your precious little snowflake is screwing around and not doing the work and then ends up failing. Do some damn parenting and help us out by not producing little shiat-heads. :p


Boolsheet! Sometime the greater majority of the students in a class can be misanthropic Neanderthals, and the best teacher in the Universe won't be able to do a damned thing with them. Most kids know that if the majority of the class refuses to do any work, then the teacher will be blamed for their crappy grades. So. the students know that they can use this shiatty little tactic to skate through an entire school year.

The kids know how to play the system, and they're good at it. They know that they can pretty much do whatever they want to do in school, because there are no real consequences - at least not until they get into college, or try to enter the job market. Real life can be a harsh beeyotch.

/Graduated High School in 2010.
//So I know of what I speak.
 
2013-02-05 11:19:55 AM
Treat people like professionals, with a commensurate salary and personal accountability for their success/failure, and watch the system change. Nobody likes being a cog in the machine.
 
2013-02-05 11:20:40 AM

philotech: hasty ambush: Notice in some locations where teachers are paid above average they have some of the poorest performing schools-like Waashington DC. Conversely some locations with low teacher pay do better in perforamnce.


[www.teachersalaryinfo.com image 612x792]http://www.teachersalaryinfo.com/images/datacharts-2.gif">


Average Teacher Salary Compared to Median Household Income.

Note: this chart compares one teacher's salary with that of a "household" income. So according to this chart, it is better to be in a state with bars on the right side of the chart, which means a teacher in that state makes more than the Median Household Income for that state


Let me get this straight... They are comparing a teachers salary to household income? Somehow I don't think that is a very fair comparison considering how many households consist of two incomes...


But if you look at the chart, using your assumption of two income households,  in places like NY and Washinton DC the average single teacher income is already higher than the avearge two income household.  So tell me again how they are underpaid.
 
2013-02-05 11:31:43 AM

palad: Treat people like professionals, with a commensurate salary and personal accountability for their success/failure, and watch the system change. Nobody likes being a cog in the machine.


Washington DC and the UAW both prove your theory wrong.   Then again they do lack that whole personal accountability thing so never mind.  Your theory may still be valid but unable to be proven since personal accountability is no longer an acceptable work place standard.  This is why teacher unions are so opposed to merit pay.
 
2013-02-05 11:53:38 AM

hasty ambush: palad: Treat people like professionals, with a commensurate salary and personal accountability for their success/failure, and watch the system change. Nobody likes being a cog in the machine.

Washington DC and the UAW both prove your theory wrong.   Then again they do lack that whole personal accountability thing so never mind.  Your theory may still be valid but unable to be proven since personal accountability is no longer an acceptable work place standard.  This is why teacher unions are so opposed to merit pay.


Teachers are so opposed to merit pay because the playing field is so unlevel.  Teaching good classes full of kids who want to learn makes even a mediocre teacher look great.  Get stuck with the worst classes and even the most knowledgeable, hardest working teacher will do poorly on the metrics.  Merit pay that bases teacher pay on student performance needs to provide equivalent student groups and that's not possible.
 
2013-02-05 12:12:07 PM
Anyone who spends that much time around kids without murdering any should be paid in land, livestock, and personal fealty. If the kids actually learn anything, the teachers should be granted sainthood immediately.
 
2013-02-05 01:17:08 PM

hasty ambush: philotech: hasty ambush: Notice in some locations where teachers are paid above average they have some of the poorest performing schools-like Waashington DC. Conversely some locations with low teacher pay do better in perforamnce.


[www.teachersalaryinfo.com image 612x792]http://www.teachersalaryinfo.com/images/datacharts-2.gif">


Average Teacher Salary Compared to Median Household Income.

Note: this chart compares one teacher's salary with that of a "household" income. So according to this chart, it is better to be in a state with bars on the right side of the chart, which means a teacher in that state makes more than the Median Household Income for that state


Let me get this straight... They are comparing a teachers salary to household income? Somehow I don't think that is a very fair comparison considering how many households consist of two incomes...

But if you look at the chart, using your assumption of two income households,  in places like NY and Washinton DC the average single teacher income is already higher than the avearge two income household.  So tell me again how they are underpaid.


That was my point.
 
2013-02-05 01:19:15 PM
1.  $125K teacher marries $125K teacher become $250K joint income couple

2. Leftist propose tax increase on $250K and above joint income earners becasue they are rich.

3 $250K teaching couple opposes tax increase

4 Left respnods with "how much money do you need?" and accuses them of being greedy.
 
2013-02-05 03:10:44 PM
psssst. maybe it's not the teachers. It might be kids with low intelligence.

My advice? Save the money and go back to fudging the test scores.
 
2013-02-05 04:14:34 PM

Ow My Balls: All that for $26,900 in 1995.


Our teachers start at around $28,000 today, and if you want family health insurance, it's $1,600/month out-of-pocket. Of course, they're paid with taxpayer money and have a union, so they are grossly overpaid and have benefits that anyone else could only dream about.
 
2013-02-05 04:25:27 PM

hasty ambush: 1.  $125K teacher marries $125K teacher become $250K joint income couple

2. Leftist propose tax increase on $250K and above joint income earners becasue they are rich.

3 $250K teaching couple opposes tax increase

4 Left respnods with "how much money do you need?" and accuses them of being greedy.



You're really good at predicting what you have been told to imagine the future will be like.
 
2013-02-05 07:57:57 PM

december: hmm, i don't know ... every time i go to the grocery store or ask a secretary something i have to wait for him or her to put away the iPhone or close youtube or stop gossiping. it seem lots of jobs involve doing something other than working while working.


So, let me get this straight: You're more comfortable comparing teachers to grocery store clerks or secretaries than doctors, and you wonder why people don't hold the profession of teaching in high regard?
 
2013-02-05 08:21:04 PM

untaken_name: december: hmm, i don't know ... every time i go to the grocery store or ask a secretary something i have to wait for him or her to put away the iPhone or close youtube or stop gossiping. it seem lots of jobs involve doing something other than working while working.

So, let me get this straight: You're more comfortable comparing teachers to grocery store clerks or secretaries than doctors, and you wonder why people don't hold the profession of teaching in high regard?


 - Because teaching 5th graders basic math is just like being a Doctor right?
 
2013-02-05 08:25:19 PM

churchill72: untaken_name: december: hmm, i don't know ... every time i go to the grocery store or ask a secretary something i have to wait for him or her to put away the iPhone or close youtube or stop gossiping. it seem lots of jobs involve doing something other than working while working.

So, let me get this straight: You're more comfortable comparing teachers to grocery store clerks or secretaries than doctors, and you wonder why people don't hold the profession of teaching in high regard?

 - Because teaching 5th graders basic math is just like being a Doctor right?


Look, I'm not talking about the actuality of the job, I'm talking about the comparisons a teacher is making to other professions  and what that says about subconscious bias. LERN2REED.
 
2013-02-05 08:33:37 PM

Summer Glau's Love Slave: Boolsheet! Sometime the greater majority of the students in a class can be misanthropic Neanderthals, and the best teacher in the Universe won't be able to do a damned thing with them.


Oh, no disagreement. And taking a closer look at the class and the teacher should reveal that. However, in general, if only one or a few students are failing a class, then it most likely is not the teacher's fault or inadequacy (barring cases of personal issues between the teacher and the student). However if it is the whole class or a strong majority of it performing poorly, then the probability increases that it is due to the teacher's inability. Of course, not always. But it is a good enough sign that a closer look is warranted.

Now, I know full well what it is like to have a class that is almost entirely composed of asshats, the majority of whom end up with crap grades because they make no effort. I've had a few (including this year's graduating class; so glad to see those morons go; they haven't earned their graduation IMNSHO, but that's the way Thailand rolls: nobody fails). And I wouldn't have any issues with someone seeing the performance of that class and deciding to take a closer look at my teaching ability and methods. Luckily, I teach several classes and have a few students in that class who were actually good and showed it, that I can show that the problem is not me.

But, and there's a comic out there with something like this on it, overall it seems that anything wrong today is the teacher's fault. It used to be (and it certainly was when I was in school in the early-mid nineties) that if a student got bad grades, a parent-teacher-student meeting would result in the parent demanding of the student to know why he/she is failing. Now it is parent demanding it of the teacher.

Because we are wizards and should be able to magically make all students perfect people with complete knowledge, and do it all on our own with no outside help or support from parents or even the school system.

At least, that's how it can be in Thailand. YMMV, of course. ;)
 
2013-02-05 09:33:26 PM

hasty ambush: 1.  $125K teacher marries $125K teacher become $250K joint income couple

2. Leftist propose tax increase on $250K and above joint income earners becasue they are rich.

3 $250K teaching couple opposes tax increase

4 Left respnods with "how much money do you need?" and accuses them of being greedy.


Um...are you just making shiat up or do you intend to back up your relentless threadshiatting?
 
2013-02-06 12:19:27 AM

doglover: Teachers who don't have to work three jobs can plan better lessons.


This.
 
2013-02-06 05:01:34 PM
No improvement?  Then the magic number must be $150,000.  Yeah, that'll do it!
 
2013-02-07 02:05:23 PM

meta1hed: No improvement?  Then the magic number must be $150,000.  Yeah, that'll do it!


I wish I was able to arrive at accurate results before running an experiment.  It would make research so much easier.
 
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