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(My Fox Detroit)   Detroit high school coach shows how a good guy with a gun on campus can stop a bad guy with a gun   (myfoxdetroit.com) divider line 102
    More: Hero, MLK High School, Detroit, Martin Luther King, St. Clair Shores, video player  
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22741 clicks; posted to Main » on 03 Feb 2013 at 7:38 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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Archived thread
2013-02-03 05:09:05 PM  
6 votes:
Goody Guys 1 Bad Guys 297
2013-02-03 07:15:56 PM  
5 votes:
Is this another thread where we pretend that there wasn't an armed security guard at Columbine who actually shot at the gunmen there?
2013-02-03 08:11:02 PM  
4 votes:
Look, The USA has the laxest gun control in the developed world, the most guns in the world per capita (by far) and the highest rate of gun violence (by far) in the developed world.

I'm not actually in support of banning any non-automatic (fully automatic) gun for civilian use outright. I'm am in support of full background checks on all gun purchases, more strenuous licensing and training for guns (and different training a licensing for different classes of firearms), tracking of ammunition purchases in excess of ordinary use, a minimum age for gun use (like we have for, say, voting, alcohol, cigarettes, military service, and driving) and banning clips in excess of 10 shots UNLESS specifically licensed (which would be limited to, say, farmers who have large to medium size mammals infesting and threatening their land). AND LAST: that we should damn well be able to research and record statistics on gun use, ownership, and purchase freely.

What is wrong with anything I just said, constitutionally, and how does any of it contain anything which could be framed as actually banning guns that aren't already banned for civilian use? And, for that matter, does anyone have statistics on how many gun crimes a year in the US are committed not with illegally obtained firearms, but banned firearms, like fully automatic weapons? Anybody?
2013-02-03 07:57:39 PM  
4 votes:

pedrop357: austerity101: If a school shooting were stopped by a guy with a gun, we'd hear about it. Sadly, that doesn't happen very often, if ever.

Well, given that CCW holders can't carry in schools in 46 or states, and most schools don't have even a single armed resource officer/security guard/police officer, I suppose that's why it doesn't happen.


Columbine High School had an armed security guard at the time of the attack. But by all means, do go on.
2013-02-03 07:53:44 PM  
4 votes:

piperTom: Azlefty: cretinbob: Goody Guys 1 Bad Guys 297
No, good guys 2,500.000

Your side should start taking the score of the good guys also!

They should count the good guys, but there is no possible way.  A great majority of "good" gun encounters are the kind where the good guy shows his/her gun and the bad guy just backs off; no report is ever made.


Maybe you should be encouraging your fellow "good guys with guns" to report crimes to law enforcement, so that you'd have something other than a bare assertion pulled from your ass.
2013-02-03 07:52:32 PM  
4 votes:
I wonder if any noticed that the shooter was a reserve police officer . . .
2013-02-03 07:31:31 PM  
4 votes:

GAT_00: Is this another thread where we pretend that there wasn't an armed security guard at Columbine who actually shot at the gunmen there?


Use it however you want. Just don't pretend that this story will be given the same coverage as the tragic ones. My guess is that this school's choir doesn't get invited to sing at the Superbowl next year.
2013-02-03 05:41:58 PM  
4 votes:
Sounds like this was a mugging picking the wrong target, rather than a school shooting prevented by a hero.

Therefore quiet, all of you... they're approaching the Tyrannosaur paddock.
2013-02-03 11:12:39 PM  
3 votes:

GAT_00: Is this another thread where we pretend that there wasn't an armed security guard at Columbine who actually shot at the gunmen there?


Yeah, and where I have to point out that law enforcement doctrine at the time was to NOT engage armed persons in a school when sighted.

The presumption up until that point was that an armed individual at a school was there to take hostages, not start shooting.  The standard response plan was to let him take hostages, get a hostage negotiator and SWAT team on site, let the negotiator do his work, and expect him to eventually talk the gunman into surrendering.

By the time the guard at Columbine realized that it wasn't a hostage scenario, it was a massacre, he was not in a good position to end the situation.

It's much like how until 9/11 the standard law enforcement reply about handling a hijacking was to not resist, that the hijackers just wanted to take the plane to some other country, maybe for a political statement, maybe for ransom, but everybody would be unharmed as long as nobody resisted.

Columbine changed the doctrine of how armed intruders at schools were handled just as much as 9/11 changed air hijacking response doctrine.
2013-02-03 09:39:06 PM  
3 votes:
So some "hero" with murder fantasies kills a young male who just wanted some cash, and that makes guns cool now? The coach could have just given him his wallet. Is a young man's life worth the few bucks you have in your pocket? Yes the guy was wrong for trying to rob the coach, but he was a product of his surroundings who shows time and time again that they don't care about the black man. The coach could have tried to open a line of dialogue with him. Maybe helped him understand what he was doing was wrong, and helped him turn his life around.
Instead he got the moment he had been waiting his whole life for, the chance to use his penis extention to murder someone and get away with it. If states would be resonsible and not issue 'concealed murder permits' this young man would still be alive.


/Thats a lot of derp, right? Thats what you anti gun people sound like.
2013-02-03 07:48:04 PM  
3 votes:
Seems like there is a difference here. Those two guys intended to rob him according to the article. That strikes me as a little different situation than "two guys bent on killing people for shock value".

Good for the coach though.
2013-02-03 07:43:35 PM  
3 votes:

The Muthaship: Slaxl: Sounds like this was a mugging picking the wrong target, rather than a school shooting prevented by a hero.

Therefore quiet, all of you... they're approaching the Tyrannosaur paddock.

Exactly.  2 students who go to the school the guy coaches at try to rob him while he was walking them to their car.  How the hell did they think they were going to get away with that?


Glad you can read. He was walking 2 female students to their car, 2 males, former studentsn approached and tried to rob him.
2013-02-03 07:40:03 PM  
3 votes:

Slaxl: Sounds like this was a mugging picking the wrong target, rather than a school shooting prevented by a hero.


This.
2013-02-03 06:59:38 PM  
3 votes:

Azlefty: Funny how it is the "progressives" that seem to like to misquote Freud, perhaps it is their way of projecting their "little issues" onto those they fear- or perhaps lust after?


This was enough for me to take a peek at your profile. You know you come off kinda crazy, right?
jbc [TotalFark]
2013-02-03 05:32:42 PM  
3 votes:

Azlefty: cretinbob: Goody Guys 1 Bad Guys 297
No, good guys 2,500.000

Your side should start taking the score of the good guys also!


Especially to keep the count correct, since the guys who need a gun just to get an erection tend to overestimate by several magnitudes of order.
2013-02-04 08:44:01 AM  
2 votes:
Regardless of whether or not this was a "school shooting" attempt or a mugging, the hero tag still applies.  This is how society should be dealing with useless pieces of living garbage like these "kids".  If someone is willing to endanger another purely for greed they deserve to die.   If anything, the one who was critically wounded should have been left to bleed out.  It would save everyone a lot of money in the long run.  Won't have to pay for a long drawn out court case to show what is already self evident, because some scumbag lawyer decides to game the system.
2013-02-04 03:08:54 AM  
2 votes:

justtray: Victim bravely defends himself, killing one, possibly two kids who try to mug him. Successfully defends the $3.50 in his wallet.


The amount of money doesn't matter.  Whether it is a single dollar or a million dollars, the right to defend yourself and your property remains the same.
2013-02-03 10:29:34 PM  
2 votes:
Every time I read one of these threads, I'm reminded that everyone on both of the extreme ends of the political spectrum are complete morons.
2013-02-03 08:32:40 PM  
2 votes:

BigNumber12: dookdookdook: Haha, sure. "Gang violence" totally isn't a code word for "Black people".

It certainly seems to be in your mind. FYI, there are large numbers of Hispanic, Asian, and White gangs as well.

[i660.photobucket.com image 344x226]


What a white gang may look like:
1.bp.blogspot.com
2013-02-03 07:48:22 PM  
2 votes:

AverageAmericanGuy: Carrying a gun into a school should be a federal offense.


To the best of my knowledge, ALL schools are gun free zones. I think he did the right think, I also think he should be charged, too.

pedrop357: AverageAmericanGuy: Carrying a gun into a school should be a federal offense.

Why?

What part of the Constitution gives the government the power to make such a law?


Tons of shiat isn't mentioned in the Constitution. I suppose you should quit the internet, it isn't mentioned. Fark off.
2013-02-03 07:47:14 PM  
2 votes:
Yeah mugging not equal to shooting.
2013-02-03 07:42:10 PM  
2 votes:
Think of how many muggings we could stop if everyone had their own tactical nuke!
2013-02-03 05:53:12 PM  
2 votes:

Azlefty: cretinbob: Goody Guys 1 Bad Guys 297

No, good guys 2,500.000


[citation needed]

And I swear, if you cite John Lott, I will cockpunch you through the Internet.
2013-02-03 05:37:47 PM  
2 votes:
There haven't even been that many school shootings, guntards
2013-02-03 05:20:07 PM  
2 votes:

cretinbob: Goody Guys 1 Bad Guys 297

No, good guys 2,500.000

Your side should start taking the score of the good guys also!
2013-02-04 04:52:48 PM  
1 votes:

arentol: Quick Quiz:

Name the three branches of the government of the USA.


Igneous, Sedimentary, and Metamorphic
2013-02-04 04:35:55 PM  
1 votes:

Ablejack: Securitywyrm: I propose a change in perspective. The objective of CCW is not to 'STOP' a mugging. Put yourself in the perspective of a criminal: You don't care about the law, and you don't fear the police. However what scares you is the possibility that your victim is armed and will shoot you. However places with more restrictive gun laws mean that your victims are less likely to be armed. You love gun control, because it takes guns out of the hands of the people that scare you the most: Law abiding citizens.

But strangely that is not the case. In fact quite the opposite has borne out. Places in the US with more restrictive legislation do in fact have less gun violence. The South for example has way more gun violence than the Northeast.


Correlation is not causation. Look at the education level and economic indicators of the 'north vs the south.' That's like saying the civil war was caused by 'slavery' and not 'the north using their population majority to pass extra taxes on the south to pay for infrastructure in the north'
2013-02-04 04:32:21 PM  
1 votes:

justtray: However, that will be impossible, because no one is interested in tracking stats that will only hurt their agenda.


Like you refusing to answer the questions?
2013-02-04 03:45:04 PM  
1 votes:

justtray: djh0101010: justtray: djh0101010: justtray: To elaborate though, i think its interesting that for every justified gun death there are 50 murders by gun. I guess thats the tradeoff the people who want to keep the status quo find acceptable. That seems ridiculous to me IE opposing more gun control.

You got a cite for this unlikely claim?

Would it change your beliefs?

If so I will give you a cite

Yeah, didn't think so.  It's just that you made an unsubstantiated and unlikely claim as if it were fact, and then presumed to speak for me and say I (a) agree that it's true, and (b) accept it.  Since we're still on (a), you haven't built a foundation for (b).  So we can't even get to what my beliefs are, since you're reluctant to establish (a).

Also, thank you for shining a light on how clear statistical facts are "unlikely claims" to gun nuts. While gun nuts still through around the entirely baseless, and wildly varying DGU numbers. You encapsulate your position perfectly.


Readers should be aware that justtray is an established liar and that nothing stated by him should be considered to be credible.
2013-02-04 03:31:23 PM  
1 votes:

nmemkha: snocone: nmemkha: snocone: justtray: To elaborate though, i think its interesting that for every justified gun death there are 50 murders by gun. I guess thats the tradeoff the people who want to keep the status quo find acceptable. That seems ridiculous to me IE opposing more gun control.

And all disarming the citizens will do is remove the "justified" deaths, not reduce the murders!
Your mission is to reduce the murdurs, is it not?
Your response, disarming lawful citizens, is counterproductive and misdirected.
How did that happen?

Um, an AR-15 can kill dozens in seconds. A knife or club, not so much.

Absolute BULLCHIT!
"Dozens in seconds"
You idiot!

Is this Piers?Frank N Stein: nmemkha: an AR-15 can kill dozens in seconds.

I see the propaganda campaign is working just fine.

If you can't kill 24 unarmed people at point blank range in under 60 seconds with a semi-automatic AR-15, your pretty bad.


I am unable to kill any number of unarmed individuals at any range with an AR-15 because I am not psychotic.
2013-02-04 03:24:10 PM  
1 votes:
Since I am a Papered, Certified, medaled Expert w/ M-16, I am getting a kick out of how so many farking idiots have fallen for the outright lies about guns, specificially the AR-15.
Inconcievable!

BTW, when you repeat these lies, you appear somewhat foolish.
2013-02-04 03:17:44 PM  
1 votes:

nmemkha: an AR-15 can kill dozens in seconds.


I see the propaganda campaign is working just fine.
2013-02-04 03:05:28 PM  
1 votes:

justtray: To elaborate though, i think its interesting that for every justified gun death there are 50 murders by gun. I guess thats the tradeoff the people who want to keep the status quo find acceptable. That seems ridiculous to me IE opposing more gun control.


And all disarming the citizens will do is remove the "justified" deaths, not reduce the murders!
Your mission is to reduce the murdurs, is it not?
Your response, disarming lawful citizens, is counterproductive and misdirected.
How did that happen?
2013-02-04 01:31:30 PM  
1 votes:

justtray: Justified homicides by gun - 200, murders by gun - 10,000


So you suggest we lower the number by 200 then?

/we covered this shiat 200 posts ago. Slap your bumper sticker on the next gun thread. People might confuse you for being clever if you get in early enough.
2013-02-04 12:55:40 PM  
1 votes:

Mikey1969: OK, maybe you don't really understand the people who would carry concealed. No, you don't just whip it out, so to speak. You actually try to avoid anyone getting shot. This might include not even letting the person know you have a gun and handing them your wallet. That guy shoots your wife though, and you draw while he's doing it and drop him if you can. Despite what people pretend, CCW holders don't just pull out their guns and blast away, they look for an opening and use it to their advantage, they also will find cover before getting in a John Woo calibre gunfight. I don't understand why this is a tough concept. Either people truly don't know, or they are just being assholes about it. What I can't figure out is the ratio.


See, that sounds reasonable to me.  You even stopped just short of admitting that any criminal or group of criminals worth a damn would try to arrange it so that even if you did have a gun, it wouldn't make sense to use it.  It's not that hard, I can admit there are certain times where a gun would be useful.  But I don't think those times occur often enough that I would actually want the responsibility and bother of carrying one, and there are probably just as many rare situations where carrying a gun would be a detriment.

But as long as you're sane and responsible, if you want to heft one about... be my guest.
2013-02-04 12:39:54 PM  
1 votes:

JustGetItRight: AverageAmericanGuy: pedrop357: AverageAmericanGuy: Carrying a gun into a school should be a federal offense.

Why?

What part of the Constitution gives the government the power to make such a law?

The Constitution can be amended. The rules written by a handful of rich, white, racist slaveowners 200 years ago can be changed, and should be changed if they fail to keep up with fundamental changes to our American culture.

It can't be denied that people are outraged and horrified at the sheer volume of gun violence news these days.

You know what is important about your statement?  The underlined part.

You might want to look at murder rates over the last few decades.  I think you'll be quite surprised.

Keep on with the gun grab and I think you'll be surprised at the congressional mid terms too.


Fark that.  You guys set that narrative as soon as Sandy Hook happened.  You all invented the specter of gun grabbing.  And you will continue to peddle the idea that your guns are about to be grabbed (any day now) until the midterms because you know it plays well to low information voters.  Grabbed or not, this is now the Tax Discussion.  Democrats want to raise your taxes to pay for gay marriages because they are democrats.  Now?  Democrats obviously want to take your guns because that's what democrats do when there's a shooting.

So even if there are only 3 Yea Votes for Feinstein's bill, all democrats will be in jeopardy, because the NRA is that powerful.

So you keep on keeping on, but don't blame this political shiatshow on the dems.  The ring leader of this particular circus is Wayne La Pierre.  Feinstein's just one of the clowns.
2013-02-04 12:36:32 PM  
1 votes:

Dimensio: Mercutio74: Dimensio: Opponents of allowing civilians to carry firearms believe that the law should give the benefit of the doubt to the violent criminal.

Or, I guess you could say that opponents of allowing civilians to carry firearms believe that the law should expect as much responsibility from that citizen as you would from a police officer concerning the care and discharge of their weapons.  You can't just turn a city into a rootin' tootin' old west re-enactment.

Are you saying that a police officer should not use deadly force to end an unprovoked violent attack?


Are you saying they should?  Because police themselves disagree with that particular assessment, champ.  I don't find self defense with deadly force disturbing, but I DO find the hero worship of these people who end a human life a little disturbing.

Happened with Zimmerman too.  WOOOOOO Get 'em cowboy!  Is the prevailing American response to these stories, when it should be, "The loss of human life is always a tragedy, even when that human was a criminal.  And I sincerely hope there comes a day when nobody has to make a choice like that."

As it stands, I see a farkload of really farked up people who seem to be itching to get into a situation like this on their own so they can really see how they measure up on the "hero scale".

Our default reaction to "dead americans" shouldn't be "whatever, he was a scumbag.  We should kill em all anyway."  If you don't see why, then you're a neanderthal who wasn't hugged enough growing up.
2013-02-04 12:30:50 PM  
1 votes:

BraveNewCheneyWorld: Just because being under attack lowers the chance of your gun serving you, doesn't mean there aren't other situations where your gun can't serve you or someone else. Quite honestly, it's a bit ridiculous to discuss how we may react in a hypothetical situation, because there's so many variables that tip the scales back and forth, each case has to be decided upon at the time. If someone has a gun on me, and I believe they're going to kill me, it would be stupid not to try something though, wouldn't it? I may have to wait for an opportune moment, and one may never show up, but it's better to have an option than no options.


Yes, true.  However, I see far more opportunity that you'd be able to protect someone else from harm with your gun than you would be able to protect yourself with a gun.  And honestly as far as I'm concerned, if you're a sane and responsible gun owner, you can take it pretty much wherever you want and I don't have a problem with that. If you want to take it to dinner and feed it little bits of steak from your plate... knock yourself out, my friend.

But here's the thing.  How do we separate out "sane and responsible" from Mikey?  That's the issue I have.  I think it's too easy to get a permit.  I think that if carrying a gun in public (when not performing the duties as a militia member) is that important to you, detailed training and certification should be required.  Including not only tactics for dealing with armed threats, but also education on the psychology of non-violent conflict resolution and also situational awareness on when pulling a gun is apt to do more harm than good (like say in a crowded hallway during confusion generated by a public shooting).
2013-02-04 11:57:17 AM  
1 votes:
The easiest way for these two sweet little angels to have not been shot: Don't try to mug someone.

It was that simple, they were not shot for being black in public, they were not shot for freedom riding, they were shot because they tried to commit a crime.

It is not that someone else decided their lives was worth 10 bucks at most, it was THEM that decided their lives was worth only that. They decided to gamble for that amount and they lost.
2013-02-04 11:54:57 AM  
1 votes:

Yogimus: No, people get shot in the U.S. every year because Americans, as a society, have abandoned teaching children how to deal with conflict and adversity. We grow up surrounded by an overwhelming message of victory through violence. Think about it: When was the last time conflict was resolved in media in a manner that did not involve violence? People just do not know how to be adults anymore. Their sense of "pride" is unchecked by any form of parentage (because parents lack this skill as well, or are absent) and slights against pride must be avenged.


I'm Canadian and grew up in Southern Ontario.  I watched exactly the same moves and TV as any American growing up as did nearly 30 million of my fellow countrymen (most of us live near the border and pretty much all of us consume US media).  The reason is not the media.
2013-02-04 11:53:10 AM  
1 votes:

BraveNewCheneyWorld: So you think you should wait until after you're injured to draw your weapon? Do you think you have a good chance of drawing a weapon after someone's already slugging away at you? Are you sure this person who's slugging away at you is going to stop before injuries become serious?


That's why I don't understand concealed carry at all. In order for self-defense to be effective if you are the target of a crime, you would have to act pre-emptively.  This would mean shooting a guy before they point a gun at you, or before they assault you.  As you've correctly asserted, if you wait for trouble to actually begin, it's probably already too late.  The likelihood of such an act working is low, which is why we aren't inundated with hundreds of stories a day about "Man saves himself from mugging with handgun."  So the solution that the pro-gun lobby and legislators have come up with is, as long as the shooter has an honest belief that bad stuff is about to happen, you can kill the person yelling/threatening/acting aggressive.

I ask the pro-concealed carry farkers in this thread.  Put yourself in this situation.  You've got a concealed carry permit.  Since you're responsible gun owners you've got it in a nice shoulder holster under your jacket and the safety is on.  You're out for a walk and you hear a voice behind you say that they've got a gun on you and that they want your wallet.  Are you legitimately going to draw, spin around and fire?

I'd say that coach is a very, very lucky man.  Lucky that the muggers were of the very stupid and non-shooty variety.
2013-02-04 11:51:16 AM  
1 votes:

Cinaed: You will still have to explain how two dead is worth the time to make a few phone calls to the credit card companies and the loss of twenty bucks.


What two dead? This story mentions one dead. Granted, it's buried way deep, in the headline, in 200 point type, but it is buried. Between the comma and the word "outside".

And yeah, it's worth it to me. Why? Because if someone is willing to threaten MY life, that means that their life is a fair exchange. If the guys hadn't been threatening the coach's life, then you would have a point.
2013-02-04 11:46:56 AM  
1 votes:

rufus-t-firefly: Yogimus: The answer isn't to remove my ability to carry a gun, but to hold me to the letter of the law for when I do.  One way treats me like a child, the other as an adult.

That worked out well in Newtown, didn't it?

When is Adam Lanza's trial?


As I said: The newtown massacre is a reasonable price to pay for the right to bear arms.
2013-02-04 11:44:29 AM  
1 votes:

Mercutio74: Damn, I guess that's why so many people get shot in the US every year.


No, people get shot in the U.S. every year because Americans, as a society, have abandoned teaching children how to deal with conflict and adversity. We grow up surrounded by an overwhelming message of victory through violence.  Think about it:  When was the last time conflict was resolved in media in a manner that did not involve violence?  People just do not know how to be adults anymore.  Their sense of "pride" is unchecked by any form of parentage (because parents lack this skill as well, or are absent) and slights against pride must be avenged.
2013-02-04 11:39:29 AM  
1 votes:

Yogimus: The answer isn't to remove my ability to carry a gun, but to hold me to the letter of the law for when I do.  One way treats me like a child, the other as an adult.


That worked out well in Newtown, didn't it?

When is Adam Lanza's trial?
2013-02-04 11:39:25 AM  
1 votes:

Cinaed: Why not? And if it's self-defense with a bat, or a knife, am I still absolved of any wrong-doing?
And the 'apparent and reasonable worst case scenario' is subjective as all hell.
A mugging's apparent, and reasonable, worst case scenario is 'having your cash and credit cards taken from you'.

You will still have to explain how two dead is worth the time to make a few phone calls to the credit card companies and the loss of twenty bucks.


Are supposed to take the criminal's word that all they want to do is rob them?  Many, rapes, murders, and kidnappings have started out looking like robberies.
2013-02-04 10:37:10 AM  
1 votes:

Cinaed: BraveNewCheneyWorld: Cinaed: Trying to figure out how much two lives are worth.

I'm sure the pocket change was worth the loss.

That's the thing about self defense with firearms,  you're not obligated to weigh the situation based on what you hope they'll do, you weigh it on the the apparent and reasonable worst case scenario.

Why not?  And if it's self-defense with a bat, or a knife, am I still absolved of any wrong-doing?
And the 'apparent and reasonable worst case scenario' is subjective as all hell.
A mugging's apparent, and reasonable, worst case scenario is 'having your cash and credit cards taken from you'.

You will still have to explain how two dead is worth the time to make a few phone calls to the credit card companies and the loss of twenty bucks.


Please demonstrate, with absolute certainty, that the shooter would not have been injured had he given his property to the criminals who accosted him. Explain also why criminals are entitled to the property of their intended victims.
2013-02-04 10:35:41 AM  
1 votes:

Ablejack: Couple years ago I was on a bike tour in the NYS Finger Lakes. One day the public campsite we had planned to stay at was full so we were given directions to a private site by the State Rangers. On our way to this site there were some children (4 kids approx.12-15 yrs old.) playing in their front yard. We supposed we were near this unplanned site but not sure exactly where it was. So we stopped, straddling our bikes on the road, to ask the kids if they knew where it was or if the road was nearby. Their father came out pointing a shotgun at us, screaming for us to our "homophobic expiltives" outta there. We obliged. Now we were clearly threatened with gun violence, would we have been the 'good guys' with a gun had we shot the man dead? Or were we the 'bad guys' that this man successfully defended his family from with his 2nd amendment rights?


Depends. Were you there to rob him? Kill his family? Rape his kids?

If not, then no, you weren't the "bad guys". I knew the anti gun crowd was stupid, but I'm starting to see JUST how stupid.
2013-02-04 10:21:16 AM  
1 votes:

SpdrJay: Think of how many muggings we could stop if everyone had their own tactical nuke!


Yeah, THAT'S how to appear serious about the discussion at hand.

And the anti-gun crowd can't figure out why nobody trusts them.
2013-02-04 10:16:14 AM  
1 votes:
I'm calling bullshiat on this story. I hear daily how people who want to carry guns for self defense are just living in in a fantasy world and nobody ever attacks anybody.

Yes, this is what I get told(Right here on Fark) when I state that the only time I personally carry is on long road trips, in case I break down. I then get informed on a regular basis that nobody ever attacks people out in the middle of the desert broken down on the road. I 'm also surprised because this guy was supposed to either shoot himself, or someone i his household, as opposed to the actual bad guys.
2013-02-04 08:39:57 AM  
1 votes:

Ablejack: Farkage: Ablejack: Farkage: Ablejack: Farkage: Should I keep going or does the truth make you sad?

By all means go on, I'll start being impressed when you reach the number of kindergartners killed at Sandy Hook. But of course you and I both know you ultimately lose this morbid scorecard game.
The truth is; a good guy with a gun cannot stop a bad guy with a gun. Simply because the world does not really consist of "good guys" and "bad guys".  That's only true in Hollywood and children's stories. LaPierre's NRA fantasy is included in the children's stories part.

So if I showed you 71 reports like those (VT, Columbine, Sandy Hook combined), you would bow your head in defeat?  Because given the fact I found the 6 that I previously posted in under 5 minutes, this will be easy.  Or an even better idea, why don't you try looking into things for yourself instead of being such an uneducated tool?  That might be fun.  You know...learning n stuff...

Are you pretending that there are more occasions of people defending themselves with a firearm than that of people being shot?

Even people that completely disagree with the NRA have the lowest of the low estimates of defensive use being 10X the number of times.  As I said, try learning a little.  Truth doesn't always go along with your preconceived "facts"
http://www.businessweek.com/articles/2012-12-27/how-often-do-we-use- gu ns-in-self-defense

Ok, so I read that dudes actual report.http://www.stat.duke.edu/~dalene/chance/chanceweb/103.myth0.pd f He concludes that with 95% accuracy he can claim that there are anywhere from 0 to 2.5 million accounts of self defense using a firearm. The 100,000 is extrapolated from sampling polls and estimating how many are probably lying or exaggerating.  And most of these are situations between two armed citizens where an argument escalates and guns are drawn. The shooter in these circumstances always claims self defense as his reason for using his weapon. From the same report, using the same ...


So are you honestly telling me that even though people that don't like other people having guns for any reason came up with a number at the lowest end of the spectrum of 100,000x annual use to prevent a crime and you still don't believe that it happens...ever?  Even though in under 5 minutes I found 6 newspaper reports of it happening???  Really?
2013-02-04 08:25:19 AM  
1 votes:

Without Fail: piperTom: A great majority of "good" gun encounters are the kind where the good guy shows his/her gun and the bad guy just backs off; no report is ever made.

True story. I used to work with a guy who carried. He told me about a time when another driver got to a parking space before him. He showed his gun and the guy pulled out and let him have the space.



Your co-worker is a dumbass, the other guy could have reported him for aggervated assault, a stupid way to go to jail for a parking space
2013-02-04 07:28:40 AM  
1 votes:

Ablejack: Farkage: Ablejack: Farkage: Should I keep going or does the truth make you sad?

By all means go on, I'll start being impressed when you reach the number of kindergartners killed at Sandy Hook. But of course you and I both know you ultimately lose this morbid scorecard game.
The truth is; a good guy with a gun cannot stop a bad guy with a gun. Simply because the world does not really consist of "good guys" and "bad guys".  That's only true in Hollywood and children's stories. LaPierre's NRA fantasy is included in the children's stories part.

So if I showed you 71 reports like those (VT, Columbine, Sandy Hook combined), you would bow your head in defeat?  Because given the fact I found the 6 that I previously posted in under 5 minutes, this will be easy.  Or an even better idea, why don't you try looking into things for yourself instead of being such an uneducated tool?  That might be fun.  You know...learning n stuff...

Are you pretending that there are more occasions of people defending themselves with a firearm than that of people being shot?


Even people that completely disagree with the NRA have the lowest of the low estimates of defensive use being 10X the number of times.  As I said, try learning a little.  Truth doesn't always go along with your preconceived "facts"
http://www.businessweek.com/articles/2012-12-27/how-often-do-we-use- gu ns-in-self-defense
2013-02-04 06:33:03 AM  
1 votes:

Ablejack: Farkage: Should I keep going or does the truth make you sad?

By all means go on, I'll start being impressed when you reach the number of kindergartners killed at Sandy Hook. But of course you and I both know you ultimately lose this morbid scorecard game.
The truth is; a good guy with a gun cannot stop a bad guy with a gun. Simply because the world does not really consist of "good guys" and "bad guys".  That's only true in Hollywood and children's stories. LaPierre's NRA fantasy is included in the children's stories part.


So if I showed you 71 reports like those (VT, Columbine, Sandy Hook combined), you would bow your head in defeat?  Because given the fact I found the 6 that I previously posted in under 5 minutes, this will be easy.  Or an even better idea, why don't you try looking into things for yourself instead of being such an uneducated tool?  That might be fun.  You know...learning n stuff...
2013-02-04 06:22:33 AM  
1 votes:

Yogimus: Ablejack: Farkage: Should I keep going or does the truth make you sad?

By all means go on, I'll start being impressed when you reach the number of kindergartners killed at Sandy Hook. But of course you and I both know you ultimately lose this morbid scorecard game.
The truth is; a good guy with a gun cannot stop a bad guy with a gun. Simply because the world does not really consist of "good guys" and "bad guys".  That's only true in Hollywood and children's stories. LaPierre's NRA fantasy is included in the children's stories part.

So what is your point?


His point is to be willfully ignorant that there might possibly be two sides to every controversy.
2013-02-04 01:32:53 AM  
1 votes:
And he would still be able to do this if all of Obama's gun regulations passes.
2013-02-04 12:52:39 AM  
1 votes:

GUTSU: justtray: Victim bravely defends himself, killing one, possibly two kids who try to mug him. Successfully defends the $3.50 in his wallet.

Amurica.

Exactly, he should have just bared his neck and threw everything valuable at two people who would potentially killed him. How dare him not allowing himself and those two girls to be victims?


Successfully removes a boil from the ass of society.
2013-02-04 12:51:18 AM  
1 votes:

justtray: Victim bravely defends himself, killing one, possibly two kids who try to mug him. Successfully defends the $3.50 in his wallet.

Amurica.


Exactly, he should have just bared his neck and threw everything valuable at two people who would potentially killed him. How dare him not allowing himself and those two girls to be victims?
2013-02-04 12:38:33 AM  
1 votes:
So basically a fluke happened?  Good for him.

But you're still putting yourself and your children even more at risk by insisting that you need to carry one with you 24/7.
2013-02-03 11:53:24 PM  
1 votes:

piperTom: Azlefty: cretinbob: Goody Guys 1 Bad Guys 297
No, good guys 2,500.000

Your side should start taking the score of the good guys also!

They should count the good guys, but there is no possible way.  A great majority of "good" gun encounters are the kind where the good guy shows his/her gun and the bad guy just backs off; no report is ever made.


So its a matter of faith then, since you don't actually know of any such encounter.
2013-02-03 11:27:07 PM  
1 votes:

dookdookdook: pedrop357: But, it's a hell of a dodge to suggest that a substantial amount of our crime is not drug related, OR to pretend that drug and gang related violence only involves black people.

Haha, sure.  "Gang violence" totally isn't a code word for "Black people".


Plenty of ethnic diversity in gangs. You must really need an excuse for your failure of a life huh.

/ turns out it's the shiatty attitude not the appearance.
2013-02-03 10:01:58 PM  
1 votes:
Somebody confuse their alts and double comment?
2013-02-03 10:01:43 PM  
1 votes:

Anderson's Pooper: That's my point. News stories where guns are used responsibly and effectively are typically ignored willfully suppressed by the press.


/Fixed
2013-02-03 09:50:39 PM  
1 votes:

Emposter: 2 kids armed robbers shot at a school, one dead.  This is the gun nuts' everyone's version of a victory.  WAY better to arm victims than try to prevent the shooting from happening at all leave them at the mercy of armed criminals.


Fixed
2013-02-03 09:36:36 PM  
1 votes:
2 kids shot at a school, one dead.  This is the gun nuts' version of a victory.  WAY better to arm victims than try to prevent the shooting from happening at all.
2013-02-03 09:27:52 PM  
1 votes:

Gdalescrboz: BarkingUnicorn: Gdalescrboz: Wolf_Blitzer: Gdalescrboz: SpdrJay: Think of how many muggings we could stop if everyone had their own tactical nuke!

I don't get the nuke argument the left makes. A gun is a precision weapon, a nuke kills indiscriminately. If the left cant see the difference between gun ownership and nuke ownership, their deep has reached critical mass

Those twenty kids in Newtown were sure precisely targeted.

How many people must a weapon be capable of killing before it is "indiscriminate"?

You don't know what indiscriminate means do you?

It means a weapon doesn't give a shiat who it kills.  They're all indiscriminate.

The crew of the Enola Gay didn't care who they killed, as long as they were in Hiroshima.  Lanza didn't care who he killed as long as they were inside the school.  They were indiscriminate about who they killed.

About the closest that anyone who hasn't a clue will get so good try. Indiscriminate is when you don't target anyone in particular, a nuke doesn't target a person, it kills everyone in an are. The kids at SH were targeted, the bullets went exactly where the barrel was pointing, because a gun is a precision weapon.


You know when someone posts something so mind-bogglingly stupid you get like an ice-cream headache just from reading it?

That happened to me just now.

You have physically caused me pain over the internet, congratulations.
2013-02-03 09:23:59 PM  
1 votes:

Dimensio: Has no one yet complained that the death penalty is not typically applied to muggers, and argued that the coach was in the wrong for using deadly force?


No, we're pretty much concentrating on real arguments, like private citizens should not  encouraged to take the place of paid law enforcement professionals.
2013-02-03 08:56:06 PM  
1 votes:

Jim_Callahan: cretinbob: Goody Guys 1 Bad Guys 297

As we tend to point out in every one of these threads, defensive uses of firearms actually outnumber gun-related crimes by an order of magnitude or two. Albeit, most DGUs do not actually end in someone getting shot, because non-criminals tend to prefer not to fire unless they absolutely have to.

//Though, in all fairness to the criminals, many gun-related crimes don't involve them actually shooting someone, either.


Self-reported DGUs outnumber gun-related crimes by an order of magnitude.  A DOJ study  http://www.ncjrs.gov/pdffiles/165476.pdf found them to be much rarer, based upon actual crime data.  Since legitimate uses of the "self-defense" provision of homicide law are EXTREMELY rare (about 200 per year), it's likely that the difference between legitimate uses and stated uses is quite overstated, or that DGUs are somewhere in the order of 1 to 6 compared to actual crimes.  To work out the math according to the Kleck figure, one in four hundred guns is used defensively every year. That passes the smell test? The 97 survey above says that 14 million adults carried, and if we adjust that by the guns figure (they place it at 190 million compared to 2010 figures of about 300 million), then maybe 20 million adults carry nowadays. One in twenty of them used their gun this year? Wow.
2013-02-03 08:53:31 PM  
1 votes:

AverageAmericanGuy: Carrying a gun into a school should be a federal offense.


Violating the Constitution should be a federal offense.
2013-02-03 08:49:11 PM  
1 votes:
America, I'm sad that there's such a thing as carry permits of any kind, yes i understand when there is genuine need for it, but to have anyone needing it is sad case of affairs

/good for the old guy, serves the idiots right
//I love me my guns, but find it's ridiculous how America goes about it, it ain't the time of cowboys and Indians
2013-02-03 08:42:26 PM  
1 votes:

dookdookdook: pedrop357: Why would cops still need them?

Meh, I'm not necessarily against banning them for cops as well.

Mass homicides are less than 1% of all homicides.

And 9/11 accounted for about 2% of all homicides over the decade 2000-2009, but it accounted for about 99.999% of all the spending pursuing murder suspects over that time.

Or are you now arguing that the murder of 20 5-year olds deserve no more attention than the murder of 20 gang members?

Technically speaking, the government does not make it harder for people to swap child porn online-there are no background checks, no waiting periods, inspection, etc. only after-the-fact enforcement which more analogous to laws forbidding discharge in city limits, assault, brandishing, etc.

Right, so if there were no laws governing child porn online, it would be exactly as hard to come by, and people would still need to use Darknet and pay with Bitcoins.


You know an awful lot about childporn on line.
2013-02-03 08:17:05 PM  
1 votes:

dookdookdook: Haha, sure. "Gang violence" totally isn't a code word for "Black people".


It certainly seems to be in your mind. FYI, there are large numbers of Hispanic, Asian, and White gangs as well.

i660.photobucket.com
2013-02-03 08:06:44 PM  
1 votes:

pedrop357: Real Women Drink Akvavit: Why did he shoot the unarmed kid? Is it legal to shoot an unarmed person in Michigan because they were with an armed person attempting to rob you? When I took the class for my CCW here in Cali, we were told we couldn't shoot people who were unarmed and/or posed no immediate threat. We have to BE threatened, not simply FEEL threatened.

/curious about the laws there about this sort of thing.

An unarmed person CAN be a threat under many circumstances.


Yeah, I've had that conversation with someone before. We both came to the conclusion that anyone, anywhere CAN be a threat at any time, for any reason, or for no reason at all. He decided that meant it was OK to shoot someone if you FELT threatened. I decided I would try and retreat to safety (just as I was taught) and only fire on an unarmed person if I had no other choice. He doesn't have a CCW, though, so it won't be an issue for him, most likely. He actually failed the test when he took it. Now that I think about it, I'm pretty sure he's the same friend of a friend who failed the HSC test the first time he took it, too. Hmmm...
2013-02-03 08:05:27 PM  
1 votes:

pedrop357: Given that quite a few are gang/drug related, I'd say that ending the drug war would be a fantastic way to save thousands of lives a year.


So it's all the blacks' fault.  Got it.

Even Ann Coulter admits that looking at the white population alone, we still have a higher murder rate than the large majority of first-world nations.
2013-02-03 08:04:29 PM  
1 votes:

pedrop357: AverageAmericanGuy: Carrying a gun into a school should be a federal offense.

Why?

What part of the Constitution gives the government the power to make such a law?


What is wrong with your Google fu, guys?  The federal Gun-Free School Zones Act of 1990 is still in effect.
2013-02-03 08:03:11 PM  
1 votes:
Detroit high school coach shows how a good guy with a gun on campus can stop a bad guy with a gun

Whether he can or not is irrelevant.  That school should already have a top-notch security dept so there isn't a "bad guy with a gun" in the first place.
2013-02-03 08:02:40 PM  
1 votes:

dookdookdook: pedrop357: did the gun pick itself up and kill the person?

derp de derp

How do you get 87?  Are you including suicides?

Link

Sorry, does 34 gun murders per day sound more acceptable?  What is the allowable number of deaths per day in your opinion?


Given that quite a few are gang/drug related, I'd say that ending the drug war would be a fantastic way to save thousands of lives a year.

We're a violent society as evidenced by our non-firearm murder rate alone.  Guns are only part of the story.
2013-02-03 08:00:20 PM  
1 votes:

AverageAmericanGuy: Carrying a gun into a school should be a federal offense.


Why?

Shooters are only stopped by guns, and they're pussies.

They pick schools because schools are soft targets and pussies like soft targets.
They kill themselves because bullets hurt and they're too cowardly to face cops.

A better way would be simply to encourage CCW among teachers. Harden the soft targets and the pussies will look for something softer.
2013-02-03 08:00:07 PM  
1 votes:

pedrop357: did the gun pick itself up and kill the person?


derp de derp

How do you get 87?  Are you including suicides?

Link

Sorry, does 34 gun murders per day sound more acceptable?  What is the allowable number of deaths per day in your opinion?
2013-02-03 07:59:04 PM  
1 votes:
I'd be perfectly happy to make it legal for retired (or active of course) police officers to carry fully automatic guns if in return we'd put in place regulations making it tough for the delusional 'I's gonna save everybodies with my glock' extremists to build their personal arsenals.
2013-02-03 07:56:20 PM  
1 votes:

pedrop357: Well, given that CCW holders can't carry in schools in 46 or states, and most schools don't have even a single armed resource officer/security guard/police officer, I suppose that's why it doesn't happen.


So the tens of millions of people in those 4 states isn't a large enough sample size for you?
2013-02-03 07:56:06 PM  
1 votes:

Azlefty: cretinbob: Goody Guys 1 Bad Guys 297
No, good guys 2,500.000

Your side should start taking the score of the good guys also!


So simple, and yet so effective.

10/10
2013-02-03 07:55:20 PM  
1 votes:
Why did he shoot the unarmed kid? Is it legal to shoot an unarmed person in Michigan because they were with an armed person attempting to rob you? When I took the class for my CCW here in Cali, we were told we couldn't shoot people who were unarmed and/or posed no immediate threat. We have to BE threatened, not simply FEEL threatened.

/curious about the laws there about this sort of thing.
2013-02-03 07:55:04 PM  
1 votes:

austerity101: If a school shooting were stopped by a guy with a gun, we'd hear about it. Sadly, that doesn't happen very often, if ever.


Well, given that CCW holders can't carry in schools in 46 or states, and most schools don't have even a single armed resource officer/security guard/police officer, I suppose that's why it doesn't happen.
2013-02-03 07:53:30 PM  
1 votes:

Anderson's Pooper: That's my point. News stories where guns are used responsibly and effectively are typically ignored by the press. If they treated the tragic stories the same, perhaps we wouldn't see as many copycats. I blame the 24/7 news cycle for extending the life of a lot of these stories.


87 people were killed by guns yesterday (and today, and tomorrow, and...) and I don't recall seeing a front page, 30-point font headline on CNN.com about any of those either.

DAMN YOU LAMESTREAM MEDIA!
2013-02-03 07:53:20 PM  
1 votes:

Anderson's Pooper: austerity101: When was the last time that a thwarted mugging was given a lot of coverage on the news?

That's my point. News stories where guns are used responsibly and effectively are typically ignored by the press. If they treated the tragic stories the same, perhaps we wouldn't see as many copycats. I blame the 24/7 news cycle for extending the life of a lot of these stories.


Even *successful* muggings are given virtually no air time.  This story will be largely ignored not because it isn't tragic, but because it isn't as compelling a story as a larger crisis such as a school shooting.  

If a school shooting were stopped by a guy with a gun, we'd hear about it.  Sadly, that doesn't happen very often, if ever.
2013-02-03 07:53:17 PM  
1 votes:

AverageAmericanGuy: The Constitution can be amended. The rules written by a handful of rich, white, racist slaveowners 200 years ago can be changed, and should be changed if they fail to keep up with fundamental changes to our American culture.

It can't be denied that people are outraged and horrified at the sheer volume of gun violence news these days.


In other worse, we amend the constitution to allow the government to make it a federal offense to possess a gun on school grounds?

That sounds like a good idea, and should definitely show those school shooters.
2013-02-03 07:52:24 PM  
1 votes:

AverageAmericanGuy: Carrying a gun into a school should be a federal offense.


Based on what?  You think it's interstate commerce?

Federal gov needs to dry up by several orders of magnitude.
2013-02-03 07:50:06 PM  
1 votes:
Anyone who carries a gun is a bad guy.

/heeeeere fishy fishy fishy
2013-02-03 07:49:49 PM  
1 votes:

pedrop357: AverageAmericanGuy: Carrying a gun into a school should be a federal offense.

Why?

What part of the Constitution gives the government the power to make such a law?


The Constitution can be amended. The rules written by a handful of rich, white, racist slaveowners 200 years ago can be changed, and should be changed if they fail to keep up with fundamental changes to our American culture.

It can't be denied that people are outraged and horrified at the sheer volume of gun violence news these days.
2013-02-03 07:49:00 PM  
1 votes:

You know it and love it, here it is one more time:

i45.tinypic.com

http://i45.tinypic.com/hukg0i.gif
2013-02-03 07:47:53 PM  
1 votes:
Blah blah blah, guns bad; blah blah blah

It's not a gun control problem; it's a people control problem. Until someone figures out how to either control humanity or breed violence out; we will be a small people; a silly people; barbarous and cruel.
2013-02-03 07:47:31 PM  
1 votes:

Azlefty: cretinbob: Goody Guys 1 Bad Guys 297
No, good guys 2,500.000

Your side should start taking the score of the good guys also!


They should count the good guys, but there is no possible way.  A great majority of "good" gun encounters are the kind where the good guy shows his/her gun and the bad guy just backs off; no report is ever made.
2013-02-03 07:45:31 PM  
1 votes:

AverageAmericanGuy: Carrying a gun into a school should be a federal offense.


Why?

What part of the Constitution gives the government the power to make such a law?
2013-02-03 07:44:26 PM  
1 votes:

SpdrJay: Think of how many muggings we could stop if everyone had their own tactical nuke!


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E2tLVPVS0Bc
2013-02-03 07:44:11 PM  
1 votes:
Carrying a gun into a school should be a federal offense.
2013-02-03 07:42:54 PM  
1 votes:

jbc: Especially to keep the count correct, since the guys who need a gun just to get an erection tend to overestimate by several magnitudes of order.


DRINK!
2013-02-03 07:40:52 PM  
1 votes:

Anderson's Pooper: GAT_00: Is this another thread where we pretend that there wasn't an armed security guard at Columbine who actually shot at the gunmen there?

Use it however you want. Just don't pretend that this story will be given the same coverage as the tragic ones. My guess is that this school's choir doesn't get invited to sing at the Superbowl next year.


When was the last time that a thwarted mugging was given a lot of coverage on the news?
2013-02-03 06:44:11 PM  
1 votes:

kmmontandon: [citation needed]


I'm in
2013-02-03 06:26:30 PM  
1 votes:

jbc: Especially to keep the count correct, since the guys who need a gun just to get an erection tend to overestimate by several magnitudes of order.


Funny how it is the "progressives" that seem to like to misquote Freud, perhaps it is their way of projecting their "little issues" onto those they fear- or perhaps lust after?


kmmontandon: And I swear, if you cite John Lott, I will cockpunch you through the Internet.


So the thought of John Lott makes you wan to touch my junk, Kinky to say the least.
2013-02-03 05:59:16 PM  
1 votes:
Obviously the U.S. needs more firearms.
2013-02-03 05:45:36 PM  
1 votes:

Slaxl: Sounds like this was a mugging picking the wrong target, rather than a school shooting prevented by a hero.

Therefore quiet, all of you... they're approaching the Tyrannosaur paddock.


Exactly.  2 students who go to the school the guy coaches at try to rob him while he was walking them to their car.  How the hell did they think they were going to get away with that?
 
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