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(Washington Post)   Step 1) School system to copyright and claim ownership over all teacher and student work. Step 2) ???? Step 3) Profit   (washingtonpost.com) divider line 83
    More: Asinine, Prince George's, school systems  
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9396 clicks; posted to Main » on 03 Feb 2013 at 3:37 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-02-03 12:50:07 PM
Isn't that the unofficial Modus Operandi of EVERY University on the planet?

Also, Step 2 is sell said copyright or patent.
 
ZAZ [TotalFark]
2013-02-03 12:59:38 PM
As I recall MIT used to insist on owning the copyright on student theses. You would have to go to the department secretary and beg for permission to grant the school unlimited rights while keeping copyright in your own name. I think the policy now lets you do that without begging permission.

There was also a controversy on Fark some years back when somebody finally read the ToS and noticed the rules assigned copyright on all comments as "works for hire." Drew had his lawyer write up new language that merely granted a license to use comments in books and media as well as on the web site itself.
 
2013-02-03 01:34:46 PM

ZAZ: As I recall MIT used to insist on owning the copyright on student theses. You would have to go to the department secretary and beg for permission to grant the school unlimited rights while keeping copyright in your own name. I think the policy now lets you do that without begging permission.

There was also a controversy on Fark some years back when somebody finally read the ToS and noticed the rules assigned copyright on all comments as "works for hire." Drew had his lawyer write up new language that merely granted a license to use comments in books and media as well as on the web site itself.


Which is as it should be. Many people would like to keep the rights to their own work, even though said work is created in the context of another's work. For example, my caption threads wouldn't work in any other medium, so I have no problem with Drew claiming the rights to use them as long as he doesn't claim the copyright.

I think the same should apply to classwork where the work is created in the context provided by the school and the instructor- rights to use, but no copyright ownership.
 
2013-02-03 01:47:30 PM
When I went to Humber College for Audio/Visual production back in '84 the college claimed copyright ownership of everything we created while we were students whether they were made on our own time with our own equipment and materials or not. I guess the one upside was the equipment the college had at the time was so horrendously outdated that it made it extremely difficult to produce something that wasn't crap. Congratulations Humber College, you own the copyright to a black and white video shot on a camera from the 1960s.

God I was so bitter about that course. They sold it to us like we'd be working with cutting edge equipment, learning to make state of the art productions but everything was pure crap. The equipment was worse than the stuff I was working with in high school at our small town cable station. We were making multi-image slide shows synced to analogue tape in a time where that sort of stuff was being phased out for multi screen video production. And when I complained about the quality and age of the equipment we were working on I was told "Well what we do here is teach you the basics which you'll need to get a job and that's where you'll learn the real stuff".

The motto of our course was "I should have gone to Seneca", for it was rumoured that Seneca college was at the high tech vanguard. I don't know if they were or not but we all imagined it was.

I've been tempted to go back and visit Humber sometime to see if they're still using that same old shiatty equipment and teaching the same obsolete techniques on outdated technology or if they've upgraded and actually run a decent programme now.
 
2013-02-03 01:50:02 PM
ZAZ:
There was also a controversy on Fark some years back when somebody finally read the ToS and noticed the rules assigned copyright on all comments as "works for hire." Drew had his lawyer write up new language that merely granted a license to use comments in books and media as well as on the web site itself.


POOP POOP POOP POOP TITTY TITTY ASS POOP. ©2013 Drew Curtis
 
2013-02-03 02:19:19 PM
In the University context, where the school may be a private research institution that is sponsoring research labs and paying grad students to advance its mission, I can see the argument for something like a shop right doctrine.  I may not like it, but I can understand it.

But this is a public K-12 school system, funded entirely through tax dollars.  Attendance is compulsory.  The equities seem very different.

Also, who's really going to buy a coffee table book of 1st grade art?  I barely want to hang my own kid's stuff on the fridge.
 
2013-02-03 02:31:18 PM

Ghastly: ZAZ:
There was also a controversy on Fark some years back when somebody finally read the ToS and noticed the rules assigned copyright on all comments as "works for hire." Drew had his lawyer write up new language that merely granted a license to use comments in books and media as well as on the web site itself.


POOP POOP POOP POOP TITTY TITTY ASS POOP. ©2013 Drew Curtis


Penis.
 
2013-02-03 02:34:56 PM

Warthog: Also, who's really going to buy a coffee table book of 1st grade art? I barely want to hang my own kid's stuff on the fridge.


media.heavy.com


My niece just said, "that looks like a mini-fridge."
 
2013-02-03 02:53:47 PM

ox45tallboy: Warthog: Also, who's really going to buy a coffee table book of 1st grade art? I barely want to hang my own kid's stuff on the fridge.

[media.heavy.com image 500x423]

My niece just said, "that looks like a mini-fridge."


1.  That book is apparently Microsoft advertising copy for their home server business.

2.  People who bought this book also bought:
ecx.images-amazon.com

Coincidence?  I think not.
 
2013-02-03 03:14:01 PM
Copyrighting "student work"
+ art class
+ Facebook exists
+ accidentally marking things public
--------------------------------------------------------------------- - -----------------------------
= PG Schools liable for the 20 child porn charges in one afternoon?
 
2013-02-03 03:24:11 PM
Same thing companies do to all of their employees work.  If you have a problem with this, you must have a problem with that.
 
2013-02-03 03:35:26 PM

GAT_00: Same thing companies do to all of their employees work.  If you have a problem with this, you must have a problem with that.


completely different situation. Nobody is forced to go to work somewhere. You can't opt out of taxpayer funded compulsory K-12 education.
 
2013-02-03 03:41:45 PM
Governments are corporations, and Citizens are employees.

Same as it ever was.
 
2013-02-03 03:42:57 PM

ajgeek: Isn't that the unofficial Modus Operandi of EVERY University on the planet?

Also, Step 2 is sell said copyright or patent.


I think it differs place to place. Where I was at grad school, there were leaning towards saying that technically your syllabus is the school's intellectual property since they provided the resources.

At my current place though, we just had a meeting about outside for-profit schools pretending to be students in order to ask for your syllabus to steal for their courses. The Dean basically said, you could do what you want because the syllabus is your property (they just wanted us aware about what some for-profits were up to).
 
2013-02-03 03:44:22 PM

dillenger69: GAT_00: Same thing companies do to all of their employees work.  If you have a problem with this, you must have a problem with that.

completely different situation. Nobody is forced to go to work somewhere. You can't opt out of taxpayer funded compulsory K-12 education.


Homeschool
 
2013-02-03 03:46:16 PM
The school is likely to be funded with tax dollars, why should it not be public domain?
 
2013-02-03 03:49:14 PM
Oh HELL no! I am a college student, and also publish work relevant to my field. If the school wants part of it, the 'burden of proof', I'd say, would be to show how I used school facilities (which I pay for) to produce a product that they were in some way responsible for. Of course, I am at a university, not a public school. But still...it's just a dick move. School boards are populated by the dregs of society.
 
2013-02-03 03:52:27 PM
GAT_00: Same thing companies do to all of their employees work.  If you have a problem with this, you must have a problem with that.

completely different situation. Nobody is forced to go to work somewhere. You can't opt out of taxpayer funded compulsory K-12 education.

Homeschool


Home schooling is an option of the parent, not the student.  The student can't opt for homeschooling without a parent or guardian to do the actual home schooling.  Therefore your solution fails to address the underlying problem - the student him/herself does not have the ability to opt out on his/her own.
 
2013-02-03 03:57:26 PM
Prince Georges County is the richest black county in the US.  Most of it's elected representatives and members of the school board are black.  Prince Georges, also. has one of the nation's most brutal police forces which indulge in beating the crap out of black men.  The cops are both black and white.  When you think deep backwards racist south, you are really thinking about Prince Georges County in the Peoples Republic of Maryland.  Black people really hate black people.
 
2013-02-03 03:57:31 PM

ajgeek: Isn't that the unofficial Modus Operandi of EVERY University on the planet?

Also, Step 2 is sell said copyright or patent.


No.  Most universities own partof your patent, but not all of it.  That also means when you are sued for patent infringement or breach of contract the university will step in and help defend you.

/My PhD adviser was sued for breach of contract about a patent for anti-Alzheimer's medication
 
2013-02-03 03:57:39 PM

ajgeek: Isn't that the unofficial Modus Operandi of EVERY University on the planet?

Also, Step 2 is sell said copyright or patent.


No no no. Step 2 is wait for someone to violate said copyright or patent, and then sue them. You get more money that way.
 
2013-02-03 03:58:40 PM

ox45tallboy: ZAZ: As I recall MIT used to insist on owning the copyright on student theses. You would have to go to the department secretary and beg for permission to grant the school unlimited rights while keeping copyright in your own name. I think the policy now lets you do that without begging permission.

There was also a controversy on Fark some years back when somebody finally read the ToS and noticed the rules assigned copyright on all comments as "works for hire." Drew had his lawyer write up new language that merely granted a license to use comments in books and media as well as on the web site itself.

Which is as it should be. Many people would like to keep the rights to their own work, even though said work is created in the context of another's work. For example, my caption threads wouldn't work in any other medium, so I have no problem with Drew claiming the rights to use them as long as he doesn't claim the copyright.

I think the same should apply to classwork where the work is created in the context provided by the school and the instructor- rights to use, but no copyright ownership.


What about artwork in art class?
 
2013-02-03 03:59:17 PM
Except I am not being paid to develop materials for a school system but to instruct students. Places which have copyright over employee work have employees which develop materials. Besides, trying to copyright student work seems unreasonable... students are the consumers, so this would akin to Adobe claiming copyright over all works produced with Photoshop.
 
2013-02-03 03:59:18 PM
Is there a psychological benefit to pretending to have so much power over children?

Because God damn, do these people love to make laws and rules.

//Went to public school in Florida.
///They ought to have just put up guard towers and barbed wire and had it over with.
 
2013-02-03 04:00:18 PM

Lenny and Carl: GAT_00: Same thing companies do to all of their employees work.  If you have a problem with this, you must have a problem with that.

completely different situation. Nobody is forced to go to work somewhere. You can't opt out of taxpayer funded compulsory K-12 education.

Homeschool

Home schooling is an option of the parent, not the student.  The student can't opt for homeschooling without a parent or guardian to do the actual home schooling.  Therefore your solution fails to address the underlying problem - the student him/herself does not have the ability to opt out on his/her own.


As a minor does the child actually have any rights to the work they create, or do their work belong to the legal guardian?
 
2013-02-03 04:01:11 PM
This isn't new

/Happened to me in primary school
 
2013-02-03 04:01:40 PM
I don't see how this can be constitutional in a compulsory situation. It's peonage.
 
2013-02-03 04:02:58 PM

RogermcAllen: Lenny and Carl: GAT_00: Same thing companies do to all of their employees work.  If you have a problem with this, you must have a problem with that.

completely different situation. Nobody is forced to go to work somewhere. You can't opt out of taxpayer funded compulsory K-12 education.

Homeschool

Home schooling is an option of the parent, not the student.  The student can't opt for homeschooling without a parent or guardian to do the actual home schooling.  Therefore your solution fails to address the underlying problem - the student him/herself does not have the ability to opt out on his/her own.

As a minor does the child actually have any rights to the work they create, or do their work belong to the legal guardian?


If a child has no legal rights why can't I sell them?
 
2013-02-03 04:10:00 PM
As a backwoods,undereducated hick all I see here is the growing government infringment on our lives.
And yes,I do at times don a tinfoil hat.
 
2013-02-03 04:10:09 PM
Seems to me that there are two issues here.

First is the one of teaching materials created by teachers outside school hours. The assumption in the UK is that teachers will spend time at home marking pupils' work and planning lessons. If they don't do these things they are not doing their job and will, ultimately, be liable to dismissal as a result. The idea of "private time" as opposed to "paid time" is therefore very nebulous indeed. My contract - I am not a teacher, but work in a related area - explicitly says that I have no set working hours, in part to get round this sort of issue. That's very common in professional contracts here. So, if a teacher creates material to use in the school where they have a full time job, it's at least arguable that the school should have rights to that material. I'd have expected the contract of employment to set this all out.

Second is the one of copyrighting pupils' work. That does seem weird. It's well established legally here that universities have no rights at all to work produced by students, but they do have rights to work produced by staff. If you post an assignment answer on the internet there are no copyright issues (there may well be other disciplinary ones) but if you post your lecturer's comments as well you can be done for breach of copyright.
 
2013-02-03 04:13:26 PM
I'm curious as to why this is being considered - I doubt that this decision came out of the blue, and I doubt it's solely driven by possibility, as stated by the article. I'm betting there's a teacher or a student in that district who has something the district can monetize, and the district is either doing this to close the barn door now that their cash cow has left, or is trying to slam that same door shut before their cash cow can profit without the district getting a cut.
 
2013-02-03 04:14:11 PM
If something you did could potentially result in money or power, some farkwaffle will try to claim it as his own - Universal Law #480917
 
2013-02-03 04:17:42 PM
Is Berkeley a public or private school?
 
2013-02-03 04:26:45 PM
So a boyish undercover cop in a high school can find his evidence owned by the very institution he's investigating? Or any viruses done by computer students is owned by the university? Excellent
 
2013-02-03 04:29:18 PM

Mister Peejay: Is Berkeley a public or private school?


You mean the University of California, Berkeley?
 
2013-02-03 04:41:49 PM

GAT_00: Same thing companies do to all of their employees work.  If you have a problem with this, you must have a problem with that.


My company does not own the rights to anything I make with my own materials on my own time. If I were to do it with their equipment on company time then sure. The article seems to indicate that all work created by a student or teacher on their own time with their own property would be owned by the school system. That is where I have an issue.

FTA: It's not unusual for a company to hold the rights to an employee's work, copyright policy experts said. But the Prince George's policy goes a step further by saying that work created for the school by employees during their own time and using their own materials is the school system's property.
 
2013-02-03 04:43:16 PM

FormlessOne: I'm curious as to why this is being considered - I doubt that this decision came out of the blue, and I doubt it's solely driven by possibility, as stated by the article. I'm betting there's a teacher or a student in that district who has something the district can monetize, and the district is either doing this to close the barn door now that their cash cow has left, or is trying to slam that same door shut before their cash cow can profit without the district getting a cut.


There was a teacher in Texas who was making 6 figures a year selling lesson plans for a buck each.

I claim copyright over this whole post.  Just because I claim it doesn't mean I have a legal right to it.
 
2013-02-03 04:49:37 PM
Private property shall not be taken for a public use, without just compensation.
 
2013-02-03 04:50:12 PM

Ghastly: When I went to Humber College for Audio/Visual production back in '84 the college claimed copyright ownership of everything we created while we were students whether they were made on our own time with our own equipment and materials or not. I guess the one upside was the equipment the college had at the time was so horrendously outdated that it made it extremely difficult to produce something that wasn't crap. Congratulations Humber College, you own the copyright to a black and white video shot on a camera from the 1960s.

God I was so bitter about that course. They sold it to us like we'd be working with cutting edge equipment, learning to make state of the art productions but everything was pure crap. The equipment was worse than the stuff I was working with in high school at our small town cable station. We were making multi-image slide shows synced to analogue tape in a time where that sort of stuff was being phased out for multi screen video production. And when I complained about the quality and age of the equipment we were working on I was told "Well what we do here is teach you the basics which you'll need to get a job and that's where you'll learn the real stuff".

The motto of our course was "I should have gone to Seneca", for it was rumoured that Seneca college was at the high tech vanguard. I don't know if they were or not but we all imagined it was.

I've been tempted to go back and visit Humber sometime to see if they're still using that same old shiatty equipment and teaching the same obsolete techniques on outdated technology or if they've upgraded and actually run a decent programme now.


Sounds like they could use it all, charge double, and call it "Hipster Audio/Video Production"
 
2013-02-03 04:52:35 PM

GAT_00: Same thing companies do to all of their employees work.  If you have a problem with this, you must have a problem with that.


Companies owning their employees work is pretty much obvious, the employee does work for the company.  This would be the same as a school owning teacher's work like a lesson plan. If a teacher is provided time in the day to develop a lesson plan that plan belongs to the school. Employees are compensated.

However owning students work is different, there is no employee/employer relationship. Students being required to do work without being compensated and generating a profit for the school, More or less child slavery. Universities or private schools would be a bit different because of the optional nature of the relationship.
 
2013-02-03 04:56:16 PM

Ghastly: When I went to Humber College for Audio/Visual production back in '84 the college claimed copyright ownership of everything we created while we were students whether they were made on our own time with our own equipment and materials or not. I guess the one upside was the equipment the college had at the time was so horrendously outdated that it made it extremely difficult to produce something that wasn't crap. Congratulations Humber College, you own the copyright to a black and white video shot on a camera from the 1960s.


Not surprising really. I know most of the major film schools in LA (USC is notorious for this) own all the rights to the films that you make while studying there and they DO profit from them, and they also have to approve projects to fit with their "image".

Lucky for me, I go to an art school that gives me complete creative control over my projects and they don't care what you end up making (many classmates of mine made projects that were borderline soft core porn, and the school couldn't object). We also get access to the most up-to-date software (upgraded every 3 months) and have at least one new camera every semester.

 My school faculty consists of graduates from USC and Columbia, and all have told me that they teach their classes in the way that they WISHED they were taught at the more expensive prestigious schools.
 
2013-02-03 05:01:26 PM

super_grass: The school is likely to be funded with tax dollars, why should it not be public domain?




I don't have much of a problem with this.
 
2013-02-03 05:06:07 PM
Of course, there's an easy way around any of these rules. Simply sell the rights to your work to someone else before you attend. Then any contract you make with the school regarding ownership is void, as you no longer own those rights.
 
2013-02-03 05:07:12 PM
That policy is a lawsuit waiting to happen.
 
2013-02-03 05:15:42 PM

AndreMA: Private property shall not be taken for a public use, without just compensation.


That's a lot of attorney fees. Since you are guaranteed a lawyer in cases using the takings clause.

Kelo v. City of New London, 545 U.S. 469 (2005)[1] was a case decided by the Supreme Court of the United States involving the use of eminent domain to transfer land from one private owner to another private owner to further economic development. In a 5-4 decision, the Court held that the general benefits a community enjoyed from economic growth qualified private redevelopment plans as a permissible "public use" under the Takings Clause of the Fifth Amendment.
 
2013-02-03 05:16:46 PM
i309.photobucket.com
 
2013-02-03 05:22:45 PM
OhioUGrad:

Sounds like they could use it all, charge double, and call it "Hipster Audio/Video Production"

I've thought the same thing many times.

"Digital video doesn't have any soul. Everyone knows for real art you have to use reel to reel videotape and a black and white camera. And no transistors in that camera. Vacuum tubes only."
 
2013-02-03 05:34:12 PM
In PG county???  What are they going to copyright?  YouTube videos of illiterate black teenagers fighting?
 
2013-02-03 05:39:40 PM

boinkingbill: Prince Georges County is the richest black county in the US.  Most of it's elected representatives and members of the school board are black.  Prince Georges, also. has one of the nation's most brutal police forces which indulge in beating the crap out of black men.  The cops are both black and white.  When you think deep backwards racist south, you are really thinking about Prince Georges County in the Peoples Republic of Maryland.  Black people really hate black people.


And this has  whatto do with the subject of the article and thread?
 
2013-02-03 05:47:43 PM
Employees usually sign agreements along this line when they start work...  but when would a student ever have agreed to this?  The no-compensation already seems shady enough, but there is simply no voluntary agreement established in that relationship, so I don't see when they could possibly establish this 'right'.  They cannot just unilaterally say someone else's work is theirs.
 
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