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(The New York Times)   Because they can   (nytimes.com) divider line 109
    More: Obvious, American Justice, racial minorities, expletives, State Supreme Court in Brooklyn, New York City Police Department  
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15485 clicks; posted to Main » on 03 Feb 2013 at 1:53 PM (2 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



109 Comments   (+0 »)
   
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2013-02-03 10:57:28 AM  
... And get away with it too.
 
2013-02-03 12:04:05 PM  
That's actually a pretty good article.

The incentive IS there to lie, through artificial quotas and financial incentives such as property forfeitures. Especially since it's all for the greater good.

/the greater good
 
2013-02-03 01:32:02 PM  
You were swerving.


/bullshiat
 
2013-02-03 01:32:40 PM  
Obligatory. Glad I could post this early. You never talk to the police. Exercise your right to silence and lawyer up if you need to. The one time I dealt with a cop questioning me went poorly, and his police report was substandard. He even got my first name wrong in the report even though it should have been kind of easy to remember, we both had the same first name. Nice of him to get basic facts wrong, like my name (and I gave him my driver's license so he had the info!). The rest of his report left out other important facts.

I was lucky in that instead of my case being sent to court, it went before a magistrate who's decision spared me a criminal record and further lawyer costs. But in general I'd be wary of police.
 
2013-02-03 01:32:57 PM  
Sadly that article is far too accurate.  I have no idea what the solution to clean things up might be (especially considering that there will be so many powerful people vehemently against doing so) but it would be nice to do as my parents did & teach me that if there is a problem find a policeman.  These days I tell my kids that in general it seems that the LAST thing that you want to do is involve the police in any problem you may be having.

/unless of course that problem is an old dog that you can't bear to put down
//in which case having the police show up may take care of that for you
 
2013-02-03 01:50:11 PM  
I think I see an arrest in the future of this author.
 
2013-02-03 01:58:20 PM  
Ric Romero is writing for the NY Times. WTG hotshot.
 
2013-02-03 02:01:18 PM  
Oh good! Cop hate thread! Can never get too many of these on FARK.
 
2013-02-03 02:02:24 PM  
Anytime someone calls police heroes I laugh my ass off. They rarely save lives during a crime... 99% of the time they are there well after the crime has occurred and just do paperwork. Their main job is to bring revenue to the city via tickets and the for-profit prisons we have.
 
2013-02-03 02:02:31 PM  
Clearly they should be the only ones with assault weapons.
 
2013-02-03 02:03:57 PM  
If only there were some way to detect lies.
 
2013-02-03 02:04:19 PM  

machoprogrammer: They rarely save lives during a crime...


How many lives do you save each day? I agree there are corrupt cops, but there are corrupt anything (fire fighters, investors, CEOs, etc). But there are actual police heroes that save lives. Perhaps not often, perhaps not always - but they do exist. And I'd imagine they save more lives and add more to the public good than a lot of other individuals.
 
2013-02-03 02:04:43 PM  

Chach: Oh good! Cop hate thread! Can never get too many of these on FARK.

 
Exactly.
 
2013-02-03 02:07:01 PM  
I wont click any NYtimes links.
 
2013-02-03 02:07:20 PM  

Because People in power are Stupid: I think I see an arrest fatal accident in the future of this author.


If you dont teach your children to be scared shiatless by cops then you are setting them up for a future suprise tazing.  In austin they taze you for shiats and giggles.

/for the greater good.....
 
2013-02-03 02:07:24 PM  

Chach: Oh good! Cop hate thread! Can never get too many of these on FARK.


Because the tenor of the article was so rabid!  If you cannot see that there is something rotten with law enforcement in the United States these days, you're delusional.  The increased emphasis on paramilitary tactics and weapons rather than the old style of de-escalation and problem solving is killing trust in LEOs.  Even in people like me who have never had a particularly negative interaction with the police.
 
2013-02-03 02:09:17 PM  
"Because they can"

What? Login to read the article?
 
2013-02-03 02:12:17 PM  
How far they have strayed:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peelian_Principles
 
2013-02-03 02:12:41 PM  
it should be titled, "because its been incentivized.'
 
2013-02-03 02:12:53 PM  

machoprogrammer: Anytime someone calls police heroes I laugh my ass off. They rarely save lives during a crime... 99% of the time they are there well after the crime has occurred and just do paperwork. Their main job is to bring revenue to the city via tickets and the for-profit prisons we have.


Why complain? That is exactly what you want.

Everytime anything is done to prevent crime (stop and frisk, sting operations, etc) you decry it. Anytime there is a big enough police presence where there can be a fast enough response to a crime in progress, you yell "Police State!"

You get exactly the type of law enforcement you're asking for.
 
2013-02-03 02:13:39 PM  

BalugaJoe: I wont click any NYtimes links.


At the risk of making an inane post more inane, I'll bite. "Tell us BalugaJoe, why won't you click on NYtimes links?"
 
2013-02-03 02:15:05 PM  
So, most cops are the same type of people who would be in prison if they didn't have a badge. Got it.
 
2013-02-03 02:15:41 PM  
How nice of the NYT to finally admit what leftists and marijuana advocates have been saying since, oh, 1966: cops routinely plant drugs on you and lie about it.

The fact that this common knowledge might be news to some people is a frightening indicator of the failure of mass education to produce critical thinkers, a basic element in any democratic republic. People who routinely and habitually believe everything a cop says are too stupid to be allowed to drive or have kids, let alone vote or serve on a jury. Authority Figures should be approached with more skepticism and treated as people with increased incentive to lie and befudddle.

It's not that most Americans are born idiots, it's that our current system strongly encourages idiocy in most people, which by age 18 is usually so ingrained that it cannot be unlearned. And don't imagine that "higher education" can cure it: the vast majority of Ameruca's elected politicians and unelected appartchiks have at least a college degree, and there are few intellectual titans among them.

And why? If hoi polloi are taught to be stupid and gullible they will be incapable of understanding how and why they're being farked over, let alone frame a coherent challenge to the "Thrones and Dominions."
 
2013-02-03 02:16:13 PM  
I had no defense but my word against six police officer's pre-trial testimony until one slipped up and mentioned that they had a video that hadn't been introduced as evidence. I mean, really, why would you when it contradicted everything they said.

After the judge reviewed it the case was dismissed but it cost me $3500 in attorney fees up to that point. There were no consequences for the police.

Their impunity from perjury is a huge problem. My opinion is that we wouldn't have so many civil suits against PD's if they'd prosecute them when they break the law.
 
2013-02-03 02:16:37 PM  
Chach:

Oh good! Cop hate thread! Can never get too many of these on FARK.

Few groups or "professions" deserve it more.
 
2013-02-03 02:17:55 PM  
"Peter Keane, a former San Francisco Police commissioner :...""...undercover narcotics officers intentionally lying under oath. It is a perversion of the American justice system that strikes directly at the rule of law. Yet it is the routine way of doing business in courtrooms everywhere in America.""

Since this is the purpose of laws; to allow those in power to game the system, it's not a perversion at all but an INTENTION.
 
2013-02-03 02:19:01 PM  
Easy enough problem to solve.  Two items:

1./ Stop doing the "hand on the Bible" thing while promising to tell the truth.  Everyone gets hooked up to a polygraph while on the stand.  Yes, there will be people who will beat it and there will be people who will false positive...but those numbers will be lower than the ones generated by everyone who is lying on the stand.  You want perfection?  You can't have it.  You want more truth (or be able to tell when what you're hearing isn't true), this does that.

2./ Start handing out serious effing sentences for perjury.  Having a witness verbally fence with the prosecutor and judge over the definition of "is" is farking stupid.  If you lie on the stand, you've committed perjury.  Period.  And now you go to jail.  Period.  Imagine how many cops will want to run the risk of going to jail such that they think lying on the stand is an option.  I'd imagine not very many.
 
2013-02-03 02:19:12 PM  
NotoriousFire:

[T]here are actual police heroes that save lives. Perhaps not often, perhaps not always - but they do exist. And I'd imagine they save more lives and add more to the public good than a lot of other individuals.

Would you like to buy some first-class beachfront property in Lexington, KY?
 
2013-02-03 02:19:23 PM  

Chach: Oh good! Cop hate thread! Can never get too many of these on FARK.


It's sad that it's gotten to the point where some people hate cops so much that's all they can do whenever it gets brought up.

Cops are human. I've had cops tell me they will lie their ass off if they nab incriminating evidence during a search if they found it by illegal means. I've had a cop write me a ticket while listing off a story that was completely contrary to what I stated. I've known a lot of good cops too.

Ultimately cops like to be in control of their surroundings and they like seeing people they don't like go to jail. The best way to handle this is to make sure you have good people as cops.
 
2013-02-03 02:20:01 PM  
Why do dogs lick their balls?
 
2013-02-03 02:20:57 PM  

Otto_E_Rodika: Why do dogs lick their balls?


To get to the other side?
 
2013-02-03 02:22:31 PM  
FTFA"
a New York City police officer named Adil Polanco told a local ABC News reporter that "our primary job is not to help anybody, our primary job is not to assist anybody, our primary job is to get those numbers and come back with them." He continued: "At the end of the night you have to come back with something.  You have to write somebody, you have to arrest somebody, even if the crime is not committed, the number's there. So our choice is to come up with the number."

This is the kind of thing I point to when I explain why you need to be absolutely sure that you want to report a crime.  If they do not find someone easily, it is your ass they are hauling off.
 
2013-02-03 02:24:49 PM  

craig328: Easy enough problem to solve.  Two items:

2./ Start handing out serious effing sentences for perjury.  Having a witness verbally fence with the prosecutor and judge over the definition of "is" is farking stupid.  If you lie on the stand, you've committed perjury.  Period.  And now you go to jail.  Period.  Imagine how many cops will want to run the risk of going to jail such that they think lying on the stand is an option.  I'd imagine not very many.


This will only work if police get a mandatory life sentence for perjury.
 
2013-02-03 02:26:51 PM  

Awesome T-Shirt: machoprogrammer: Anytime someone calls police heroes I laugh my ass off. They rarely save lives during a crime... 99% of the time they are there well after the crime has occurred and just do paperwork. Their main job is to bring revenue to the city via tickets and the for-profit prisons we have.

Why complain? That is exactly what you want.

Everytime anything is done to prevent crime (stop and frisk, sting operations, etc) you decry it. Anytime there is a big enough police presence where there can be a fast enough response to a crime in progress, you yell "Police State!"

You get exactly the type of law enforcement you're asking for.

 To quote the article: Even where no clear financial incentives exist, the "get tough" movement has warped police culture to such a degree that police chiefs and individual officers feel pressured to meet stop-and-frisk or arrest quotas in order to prove their "productivity."


So what were you trying to say?
 
2013-02-03 02:28:48 PM  

albatros183: "Peter Keane, a former San Francisco Police commissioner :...""...undercover narcotics officers intentionally lying under oath. It is a perversion of the American justice system that strikes directly at the rule of law. Yet it is the routine way of doing business in courtrooms everywhere in America.""


Since this is the purpose of laws; to allow those in power to game the system, it's not a perversion at all but an INTENTION.

[Emphasis added to indicate strong agreement.]
 
2013-02-03 02:29:01 PM  
My cousin's husband was a police officer for 20 years.  Over Christmas I asked him if the whole "quota" for speeding tickets thing was true.

He said no they didn't have it when he was there or they didn't threaten to put you on a desk job for not writing tickets... but he did say that motorcycle cops are nothing but a ticket revenue stream.


//really nice guy now that he's been out of the biz for the last 10 years.
 
2013-02-03 02:29:56 PM  

Mrbogey: Chach: Oh good! Cop hate thread! Can never get too many of these on FARK.

It's sad that it's gotten to the point where some people hate cops so much that's all they can do whenever it gets brought up.

Cops are human. I've had cops tell me they will lie their ass off if they nab incriminating evidence during a search if they found it by illegal means. I've had a cop write me a ticket while listing off a story that was completely contrary to what I stated. I've known a lot of good cops too.

Ultimately cops like to be in control of their surroundings and they like seeing people they don't like go to jail. The best way to handle this is to make sure you have good people as cops.


I can also beat people I don't like up.
I don't pretend that I have some other authority than myself.

If I have a gang does that make me legit?, it makes me right, right.

/Go on a death camp tour, your a villager.
//Godwin, but with what is happening in the States and thus the rest of the world it's becoming very not funny.
 
2013-02-03 02:32:27 PM  
Unlike most big problems, there's a pretty simple fix for this one:

1.  Require all cops to keep a mini audio/video camera clipped to their shirt at all times when on duty, with the recordings automatically going to a third-party escrow.

2.  Send cops to prison when they're caught committing perjury.

And, if you really want to do a thourough job  of fixing gthe problem,

3.  End the war on drugs.


Too bad these simple fixes are politically impossible  to actually do.
 
2013-02-03 02:32:51 PM  

ox45tallboy: That's actually a pretty good article.

The incentive IS there to lie, through artificial quotas and financial incentives such as property forfeitures. Especially since it's all for the greater good.

/the greater good


encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com
 
2013-02-03 02:33:18 PM  

rev. dave: craig328: Easy enough problem to solve.  Two items:

2./ Start handing out serious effing sentences for perjury.  Having a witness verbally fence with the prosecutor and judge over the definition of "is" is farking stupid.  If you lie on the stand, you've committed perjury.  Period.  And now you go to jail.  Period.  Imagine how many cops will want to run the risk of going to jail such that they think lying on the stand is an option.  I'd imagine not very many.

This will only work if police get a mandatory life sentence for perjury.


I don't think that's necessary, TBH.  For example: cop lies, cop gets caught lying, cop gets charged with and convicted of perjury and does some time (maybe 30 days say).

Now, cop is out of jail for lying on the stand in court.  His employer...wants him back?  Not likely but his union will prolly figure out a way to make that happen.  But as an officer of the law, how much is his testimony worth now?  Keep in mind, if he does testify again, he's doing it hooked up to a polygraph.  But then again, he did also have to spend 30 days in jail alongside the people he and his buddies have been tossing in there.

I think it would be a pretty good deterrent...IF you can get the judges behind it.
 
2013-02-03 02:37:25 PM  

The One True TheDavid: Awesome T-Shirt: machoprogrammer: Anytime someone calls police heroes I laugh my ass off. They rarely save lives during a crime... 99% of the time they are there well after the crime has occurred and just do paperwork. Their main job is to bring revenue to the city via tickets and the for-profit prisons we have.

Why complain? That is exactly what you want.

Everytime anything is done to prevent crime (stop and frisk, sting operations, etc) you decry it. Anytime there is a big enough police presence where there can be a fast enough response to a crime in progress, you yell "Police State!"

You get exactly the type of law enforcement you're asking for.
 To quote the article: Even where no clear financial incentives exist, the "get tough" movement has warped police culture to such a degree that police chiefs and individual officers feel pressured to meet stop-and-frisk or arrest quotas in order to prove their "productivity."


So what were you trying to say?


What you're quoting in regards to my response makes no sense. Perhaps you're taking what I'm saying out of its context. Just because no financial incentive exists in some cases doesn't mean that police chiefs aren't being pressured by their bosses (politicians) to have their officers do proactive police work, but that's not what I was even talking about in the first place.

Right or wrong, people will always be unhappy with how the police handle things.
 
2013-02-03 02:38:24 PM  

Recoil Therapy: I have no idea what the solution to clean things up might be...


Ending the War On Drugs would be a good start

/the only real solution involves a comprehensive change in the way we look at law enforcement and the criminal justice system. "Tough on Crime" initiatives need to go and replaced with an emphasis on rehabilitating people and helping them to contribute to society rather than punishing the guilty.
 
2013-02-03 02:42:20 PM  
Power tripping adrenalin junkies, trained and encouraged to lie and coerce every citizen they meet while on the job into waiving their constitutional rights. That alone is their primary function when faced with any citizen they are suspicious of. Given para-military equipment and military training they itch to use it. The smiling policemen knocking on your door are quite likely the most dangerous animals a civilized person will ever encounter. Don't answer.
 
2013-02-03 02:43:20 PM  

Voiceofreason01: Ending the War On Drugs would be a good start


Ditto the War on Terror.
 
2013-02-03 02:44:20 PM  

craig328: rev. dave: craig328: Easy enough problem to solve.  Two items:

2./ Start handing out serious effing sentences for perjury.  Having a witness verbally fence with the prosecutor and judge over the definition of "is" is farking stupid.  If you lie on the stand, you've committed perjury.  Period.  And now you go to jail.  Period.  Imagine how many cops will want to run the risk of going to jail such that they think lying on the stand is an option.  I'd imagine not very many.

This will only work if police get a mandatory life sentence for perjury.

I don't think that's necessary, TBH.  For example: cop lies, cop gets caught lying, cop gets charged with and convicted of perjury and does some time (maybe 30 days say).

Now, cop is out of jail for lying on the stand in court.  His employer...wants him back?  Not likely but his union will prolly figure out a way to make that happen.  But as an officer of the law, how much is his testimony worth now?  Keep in mind, if he does testify again, he's doing it hooked up to a polygraph.  But then again, he did also have to spend 30 days in jail alongside the people he and his buddies have been tossing in there.

I think it would be a pretty good deterrent...IF you can get the judges behind it.


Happy day, sorry but laws don't apply to cops period.
here in TO cops where and are randomly stopping people and demanding ID (they were doing it downtown around the G20) even though that is explicitly illegal, when one of the units of the drug squad got sent to trial they crown deliberately screwed things up and the trial was dragged out so long it got thrown out.
No cop was ever held accountable for taking someone on the " Cherry beach express".

Laws exist to keep people in power, things may be more extreme in the States than some other western nations but the principle is the same.

Cops only exist because the army was to sympathetic to the people it was trying to oppress.
 
2013-02-03 02:46:36 PM  
http://i.imgur.com/LQxPm9f.gif">
 
2013-02-03 02:47:11 PM  

craig328: Now, cop is out of jail for lying on the stand in court.  His employer...wants him back?  Not likely but his union will prolly figure out a way to make that happen.  But as an officer of the law, how much is his testimony worth now?  Keep in mind, if he does testify again, he's doing it hooked up to a polygraph.  But then again, he did also have to spend 30 days in jail alongside the people he and his buddies have been tossing in there.

I think it would be a pretty good deterrent...IF you can get the judges behind it.


Was going to say *this* right here.

It really isn't necessary to give a cop a long sentence for perjury.  If a cop is caught lying on the stand or otherwise has his integrity marked, even once for anything, that cop is finished as a trial witness.  The circumstances will be be known by every defense attorney for a 50 mile radius and the indiscretion will come up should he ever testify again.
 
2013-02-03 02:48:12 PM  

Voiceofreason01: Recoil Therapy: I have no idea what the solution to clean things up might be...

Ending the War On Drugs would be a good start

/the only real solution involves a comprehensive change in the way we look at law enforcement and the criminal justice system. "Tough on Crime" initiatives need to go and replaced with an emphasis on rehabilitating people and helping them to contribute to society rather than punishing the guilty.


The problem is that they have an income stream which cannot be replaced easily.

Q: How can the police make as much or even more money than they do with the drug war?
A: Give them permission  to confiscate and liquidate all assets of anyone suspected of fraud in the banking and securities sector.  After retroactively setting the statute of limitations to 75 years.

Oh after that, who the hell cares about drugs anymore?
 
2013-02-03 02:49:56 PM  

corn-bread: craig328: Now, cop is out of jail for lying on the stand in court.  His employer...wants him back?  Not likely but his union will prolly figure out a way to make that happen.  But as an officer of the law, how much is his testimony worth now?  Keep in mind, if he does testify again, he's doing it hooked up to a polygraph.  But then again, he did also have to spend 30 days in jail alongside the people he and his buddies have been tossing in there.

I think it would be a pretty good deterrent...IF you can get the judges behind it.

Was going to say *this* right here.

It really isn't necessary to give a cop a long sentence for perjury.  If a cop is caught lying on the stand or otherwise has his integrity marked, even once for anything, that cop is finished as a trial witness.  The circumstances will be be known by every defense attorney for a 50 mile radius and the indiscretion will come up should he ever testify again.


yes since attempting to kidnap someone for x years should not be punished by more than loosing your job.
 
2013-02-03 02:50:10 PM  
the answer is found in the lyrics of DJ Shadow's "Why Hip Hop Sucks in '96", from his brilliant album Endtroducing. the lyrics, in their entirety:

It's the money.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s2VG53RIJ50
 
2013-02-03 02:52:22 PM  

ox45tallboy: That's actually a pretty good article.

The incentive IS there to lie, through artificial quotas and financial incentives such as property forfeitures. Especially since it's all for the greater good.

/the greater good


www.tooconservative.com
 
2013-02-03 02:52:25 PM  
It's like police and prosecutors get off on ruining lives.  Anti-DUI PSAs seem to bare this out.  Let the punishment fit the crime, not the conceptual theoretical amplified and exaggerated damage the person conceivably could have possibly maybe caused had they been drunk driving with a poorly-maintained russian nuclear power plant in their back seat.

/I'm hard on crime
//or was that hardon for crime
///whatever
 
2013-02-03 02:53:27 PM  
The only people who have ever pointed a deadly weapon at me have been cops. Yet even they have had to admit that they have never found a deady weapon on me, unless you count a pocketknife with a blade 1/4" over the legal limit for that state -- which that cop stole confiscated.

When I was a skinny 15 year old hitchhiker an Arizona state cop threw me across his car hood, jammed a .357 muzzle into the back of my neck and cocked the trigger, because I didn't comply quite fast enough. If a passing trucker hadn't slammed on his brakes very soon after that and told the cop about a big accident a few miles down the road I might well have died then and there; that there was in fact no accident is the kind of interaction I'd encourage people to have with police, if we must talk to them at all. (He said that scene made the CB airwaves immediately and he was less a mile away when he heard; it seemed like a matter of seconds to me, maybe a minute. That's what I call heroism.)
 
2013-02-03 02:53:47 PM  

Riche: Unlike most big problems, there's a pretty simple fix for this one:

1.  Require all cops to keep a mini audio/video camera clipped to their shirt at all times when on duty, with the recordings automatically going to a third-party escrow

 online, live, and archived on a website forever for everyone to watch. just like that cameras that should be in every school room.

2.  Send cops to prison when they're caught committing perjury.

And, if you really want to do a thourough job  of fixing gthe problem,

3.  End the war on drugs.


Too bad these simple fixes are politically impossible  to actually do.
 
2013-02-03 02:56:58 PM  
Remember there used to be a "stolen valor" law that made it illegal to lie about past military service. Essentially a law in essence, making it illegal to lie.Then that law got shot down soon after. Why? I believe because it was fast appearing to be a potentially dangerous precedent of law which could filter into law enforcement and politics. We can't have a law on the books making it against the law to lie now can we. That just wouldn't work out for those who lie for a living. Those same people who make the rules and enforce them. No, that's gotta go.
 
2013-02-03 02:58:19 PM  

craig328: Easy enough problem to solve.  Two items:

1./ Stop doing the "hand on the Bible" thing while promising to tell the truth.  Everyone gets hooked up to a polygraph while on the stand.  Yes, there will be people who will beat it and there will be people who will false positive...but those numbers will be lower than the ones generated by everyone who is lying on the stand.  You want perfection?  You can't have it.  You want more truth (or be able to tell when what you're hearing isn't true), this does that.

2./ Start handing out serious effing sentences for perjury.  Having a witness verbally fence with the prosecutor and judge over the definition of "is" is farking stupid.  If you lie on the stand, you've committed perjury.  Period.  And now you go to jail.  Period.  Imagine how many cops will want to run the risk of going to jail such that they think lying on the stand is an option.  I'd imagine not very many.


#2 is a perfect solution.  #1 will not work because polygraphs simply cannot detect lies.  Objective well-run studies have shown that 'experts' cannot detect who is lying.  The polygraph only 'works' in a coercive way on those who believe it works.
 
2013-02-03 02:59:45 PM  

craig328: rev. dave: craig328:
This will only work if police get a mandatory life sentence for perjury.

I don't think that's necessary, TBH. For example: cop lies, cop gets caught lying, cop gets charged with and convicted of perjury and does some time (maybe 30 days say).

Now, cop is out of jail for lying on the stand in court. His employer...wants him back? Not likely but his union will prolly figure out a way to make that happen. But as an officer of the law, how much is his testimony worth now? Keep in mind, if he does testify again, he's doing it hooked up to a polygraph. But then again, he did also have to spend 30 days in jail alongside the people he and his buddies have been tossing in there.

I think it would be a pretty good deterrent...IF you can get the judges behind it.


The problem is that what I suggest is equivalent to the death penalty in its extremity.  It is supposed to instill a sense of absolute fear in those who already have bought into the follow of the rule of law.  Since they own the execution of the law, they need to be held to a high standard for the people to take them seriously.  It will solve many problems at the same time.  And the few who get as far as a life sentence will become examples.
 
2013-02-03 03:01:22 PM  

rev. dave: craig328: Easy enough problem to solve.  Two items:

2./ Start handing out serious effing sentences for perjury.  Having a witness verbally fence with the prosecutor and judge over the definition of "is" is farking stupid.  If you lie on the stand, you've committed perjury.  Period.  And now you go to jail.  Period.  Imagine how many cops will want to run the risk of going to jail such that they think lying on the stand is an option.  I'd imagine not very many.

This will only work if police get a mandatory life sentence for perjury.


Or a death sentence if it's severe enough, for example one of those all-too-frequent no-knock bust-ins to the wrong address where an unarmed resident gets blown away for being there. Of course my cynical side says if we start punishing cops for perjury, especially in a fatal "accident," they'll just start executing the witnesses on the spot and planting pistols and meth.
 
2013-02-03 03:01:46 PM  
If I were a judge and I had a cop lying and purging under oath I would come down with something like this with one or more of the following...
 ... I find under summary judgment that the defendant is not guilty and free to go.
 ... If the state wanted a retrial, no testimony or evidence from the deposed cop would allowed admitted.
 ...For spoiling the court I find the cop in contempt, fine him $100,000.00, sentence him to six months, order the DA to open a case for criminal purgery on the cop. Forfeiture of his pensions.
 ...Order a review and possible retrial on any case that cop had testified on.

/Yeah, I'm in fantasy land right now.
//Me thinks that everyone in court be forced to take truth serum during the trial (when/if it becomes reliable)
 
2013-02-03 03:02:19 PM  
ncacblog.files.wordpress.com
 
2013-02-03 03:02:28 PM  
FTFA: In 2010, a New York City police officer named Adil Polanco told a local ABC News reporter that "our primary job is not to help anybody, our primary job is not to assist anybody, our primary job is to get those numbers and come back with them." He continued: "At the end of the night you have to come back with something.  You have to write somebody, you have to arrest somebody, even if the crime is not committed, the number's there. So our choice is to come up with the number."

So... crime rates would drop if the police stopped lying about them to fill "imaginary" quotas? Good to know.

/policing in this country is in serious need of reform
//oddly, a republican in Illinois is trying to get tougher regulations on the use of tasers passed
 
2013-02-03 03:06:27 PM  
The One True TheDavid: How nice of the NYT to finally admit what leftists and marijuana advocates have been saying since, oh, 1966: cops routinely plant drugs on you and lie about it.

They actually have a name for that.  "Dropsy evidence."  As in "I drop it, then I see it."

The police in this country are as corrupt as anything.  Perjury, manufactured evidence, assault....  Take away the badge and the protection of the state, and what you have, quite literally, is an organized crime syndicate.
 
2013-02-03 03:06:41 PM  
 
2013-02-03 03:07:13 PM  

NotoriousFire: machoprogrammer: They rarely save lives during a crime...

How many lives do you save each day? I agree there are corrupt cops, but there are corrupt anything (fire fighters, investors, CEOs, etc). But there are actual police heroes that save lives. Perhaps not often, perhaps not always - but they do exist. And I'd imagine they save more lives and add more to the public good than a lot of other individuals.


Firefighters, investors and CEOs don't have the ability to get you locked up for years at a time.
 
2013-02-03 03:09:35 PM  

The One True TheDavid: rev. dave:
This will only work if police get a mandatory life sentence for perjury.

Or a death sentence if it's severe enough, for example one of those all-too-frequent no-knock bust-ins to the wrong address where an unarmed resident gets blown away for being there. Of course my cynical side says if we start punishing cops for perjury, especially in a fatal "accident," they'll just start executing the witnesses on the spot and planting pistols and meth.


Since I am from Metro Atlanta, I know about the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kathryn_Johnston_shooting.  You have a point.   But in a more human world people would not let this happen.  I guess there is part of me who would rather see the good in people and the evil in organizations.
 
2013-02-03 03:11:37 PM  

craig328: Easy enough problem to solve.  Two items:

1./ Stop doing the "hand on the Bible" thing while promising to tell the truth.  Everyone gets hooked up to a polygraph while on the stand.  Yes, there will be people who will beat it and there will be people who will false positive...but those numbers will be lower than the ones generated by everyone who is lying on the stand.  You want perfection?  You can't have it.  You want more truth (or be able to tell when what you're hearing isn't true), this does that.

2./ Start handing out serious effing sentences for perjury.  Having a witness verbally fence with the prosecutor and judge over the definition of "is" is farking stupid.  If you lie on the stand, you've committed perjury.  Period.  And now you go to jail.  Period.  Imagine how many cops will want to run the risk of going to jail such that they think lying on the stand is an option.  I'd imagine not very many.


1. Polygraph would only add  to a cop's credibility and you can learn how to beat one on the Internet.

2. Good idea.
 
2013-02-03 03:15:34 PM  

Rent Party: NotoriousFire: machoprogrammer: They rarely save lives during a crime...

How many lives do you save each day? I agree there are corrupt cops, but there are corrupt anything (fire fighters, investors, CEOs, etc). But there are actual police heroes that save lives. Perhaps not often, perhaps not always - but they do exist. And I'd imagine they save more lives and add more to the public good than a lot of other individuals.

Firefighters, investors and CEOs don't have the ability to get you locked up for years at a time.


FTFY
 
2013-02-03 03:17:16 PM  
Of course, the cop who lets you off with a warning or does you the favor of writing down "70 mph" instead of "100 mph" is not being dishonest.
 
2013-02-03 03:17:21 PM  

rezaxis: Remember there used to be a "stolen valor" law that made it illegal to lie about past military service. Essentially a law in essence, making it illegal to lie.Then that law got shot down soon after. Why? I believe because it was fast appearing to be a potentially dangerous precedent of law which could filter into law enforcement and politics. We can't have a law on the books making it against the law to lie now can we. That just wouldn't work out for those who lie for a living. Those same people who make the rules and enforce them. No, that's gotta go.


Poe's law.

/or a solid 9/10 if you're trolling
 
2013-02-03 03:20:43 PM  

albatros183: Rent Party: NotoriousFire: machoprogrammer: They rarely save lives during a crime...

How many lives do you save each day? I agree there are corrupt cops, but there are corrupt anything (fire fighters, investors, CEOs, etc). But there are actual police heroes that save lives. Perhaps not often, perhaps not always - but they do exist. And I'd imagine they save more lives and add more to the public good than a lot of other individuals.

Firefighters, investors and CEOs don't have the ability to get you locked up for years at a time.

FTFY


No, you didn't.  Investors and CEOs don't have the ability to get you locked up for years at a time.

Cops do.
 
2013-02-03 03:27:29 PM  

Rent Party: The One True TheDavid: How nice of the NYT to finally admit what leftists and marijuana advocates have been saying since, oh, 1966: cops routinely plant drugs on you and lie about it.

They actually have a name for that. "Dropsy evidence." As in "I drop it, then I see it."


Funny that when they run it for prints, the only ones that come back are the cops.
 
2013-02-03 03:34:10 PM  
They will act a lot better when they are the only Americans with guns.
 
2013-02-03 03:37:23 PM  
Police don't think of themselves as police anymore. They think they are "paramilitary" us verses them.
 
2013-02-03 03:46:20 PM  
Incentive or not, they lie because they don't know how not to lie.
 
2013-02-03 03:57:41 PM  

joeflood: It's like police and prosecutors get off on ruining lives. Anti-DUI PSAs seem to bare this out. Let the punishment fit the crime, not the conceptual theoretical amplified and exaggerated damage the person conceivably could have possibly maybe caused had they been drunk driving with a poorly-maintained russian nuclear power plant in their back seat.


Could you elaborate? Are you arguing that drunken driving is lethal under and amplified and exaggerated scenario?
 
2013-02-03 04:14:21 PM  

Voiceofreason01: rezaxis: Remember there used to be a "stolen valor" law that made it illegal to lie about past military service. Essentially a law in essence, making it illegal to lie.Then that law got shot down soon after. Why? I believe because it was fast appearing to be a potentially dangerous precedent of law which could filter into law enforcement and politics. We can't have a law on the books making it against the law to lie now can we. That just wouldn't work out for those who lie for a living. Those same people who make the rules and enforce them. No, that's gotta go.

Poe's law.

/or a solid 9/10 if you're trolling


It was a coherent and valid point. Didn't sound like a troll to me. In fact, I'm going to go ahead and click 'Smart' next to it. You cannot make lying illegal (except perjury) as it would no longer work in the favour of the judicial system. Prosecutors are some of the biggest liars the system produces. Much bigger liars in point of fact than the guy holding the gun yelling 'I didn't do it'.

I suppose you might respond to my post now with a 3/10 or something. :)
 
2013-02-03 04:40:52 PM  

Awesome T-Shirt: The One True TheDavid: Awesome T-Shirt:

You: Everytime anything is done to prevent crime (stop and frisk, sting operations, etc) you decry it. Anytime there is a big enough police presence where there can be a fast enough response to a crime in progress, you yell "Police State!"

 Me: To quote the article: Even where no clear financial incentives exist, the "get tough" movement has warped police culture to such a degree that police chiefs and individual officers feel pressured to meet stop-and-frisk or arrest quotas in order to prove their "productivity."

You now: What you're quoting in regards to my response makes no sense. Perhaps you're taking what I'm saying out of its context.</i>


No. You said we "decry" stop and frisk": I quoted the article giving a reason why we "decry" it, as you yourself said we do.

How is that out of context? Its as if you say "Hi, I'm Fred!" then my friend walks up and I say "Ben, this is Fred."

Just because no financial incentive exists in some cases doesn't mean that police chiefs aren't being pressured by their bosses (politicians) to have their officers do proactive police work, but that's not what I was even talking about in the first place.

Yes, it is. You mentioned "stop and frisk" as something we "decry." I quoted the article saying why, now you claim "stop and frisk" is not what you were talking about even though you brought up "stop and frisk" in the first place.

Do you know left from right? Stop from go?


Right or wrong, people will always be unhappy with how the police handle things.

Actually I have to admit there were a few cops in my 40-odd years of experience with them who were nice to me and did not repress me unduly. And, for example, hen someone is raped by someone  who looks something like me I'm not offended if the cops stop me without brutality, find out I'm not who they're looking for and then let me go. There's a difference between "doing their job" and "being pricks with guns and power."
 
2013-02-03 04:47:01 PM  

Mrbogey: joeflood: It's like police and prosecutors get off on ruining lives. Anti-DUI PSAs seem to bare this out. Let the punishment fit the crime, not the conceptual theoretical amplified and exaggerated damage the person conceivably could have possibly maybe caused had they been drunk driving with a poorly-maintained russian nuclear power plant in their back seat.

Could you elaborate? Are you arguing that drunken driving is lethal under and amplified and exaggerated scenario?


Sounds like someone got pulled over for a fairly innocuous infraction like rolling through a deserted red light after a few hours at the bar and is still dealing with it years later.

Seems fairly ridiculous, but how else can we try to get people to stop drinking and driving?
Sometimes I think that if the government were really serious about stopping drinking and driving instead of generating court costs, they would just mandate that breathalyzer key locks (or whatever they are called) be installed on every car.
 
2013-02-03 04:51:16 PM  
"Michelle Alexander is the author of 'The New Jim Crow: Mass Incarceration in the Age of Colorblindness.'"

'Nuff said.
 
2013-02-03 04:52:41 PM  
A few years ago, I was removed from the jury during voir dire because I said that I don't trust a cop's word over anyone else's.
 
2013-02-03 05:03:50 PM  

lousy screw: "Michelle Alexander is the author of 'The New Jim Crow: Mass Incarceration in the Age of Colorblindness.'"

'Nuff said.


And what is that, exactly?
 
2013-02-03 05:29:15 PM  

Rent Party: albatros183: Rent Party: NotoriousFire: machoprogrammer: They rarely save lives during a crime...

How many lives do you save each day? I agree there are corrupt cops, but there are corrupt anything (fire fighters, investors, CEOs, etc). But there are actual police heroes that save lives. Perhaps not often, perhaps not always - but they do exist. And I'd imagine they save more lives and add more to the public good than a lot of other individuals.

Firefighters, investors and CEOs don't have the ability to get you locked up for years at a time.

FTFY

No, you didn't.  Investors and CEOs don't have the ability to get you locked up for years at a time.

Cops do.


Right because investors and CEOs have no influence with the state at all...

Your just flat wrong, your employer can set you up anytime they want and people with money can buy the police anytime they want.

You are wrong.
 
2013-02-03 05:35:26 PM  

fredklein: Rent Party: The One True TheDavid: How nice of the NYT to finally admit what leftists and marijuana advocates have been saying since, oh, 1966: cops routinely plant drugs on you and lie about it.

They actually have a name for that. "Dropsy evidence." As in "I drop it, then I see it."

Funny that when they run it for prints, the only ones that come back are the cops.


There is no need to run it for prints when you have the officer's testimony that he witnessed the perp in possession of the evidence.   They have a name for that, too.  "Testilying."
 
2013-02-03 05:37:00 PM  
But but police keep us safe!!1


craig328
1./ Stop doing the "hand on the Bible" thing while promising to tell the truth. Everyone gets hooked up to a polygraph while on the stand.

The word "testify" comes from back when a guard had one of the witness's testicles between a thumb and forefingers, and if they lied, *pop*.

Just throwin' that out there.
 
2013-02-03 05:38:39 PM  

albatros183: Rent Party: albatros183: Rent Party: NotoriousFire: machoprogrammer: They rarely save lives during a crime...

How many lives do you save each day? I agree there are corrupt cops, but there are corrupt anything (fire fighters, investors, CEOs, etc). But there are actual police heroes that save lives. Perhaps not often, perhaps not always - but they do exist. And I'd imagine they save more lives and add more to the public good than a lot of other individuals.

Firefighters, investors and CEOs don't have the ability to get you locked up for years at a time.

FTFY

No, you didn't.  Investors and CEOs don't have the ability to get you locked up for years at a time.

Cops do.

Right because investors and CEOs have no influence with the state at all...

Your just flat wrong, your employer can set you up anytime they want and people with money can buy the police anytime they want.

You are wrong.


You're a moron, dude.  Your employer's word isn't admissible as evidence, and your employer's job isn't to collect evidence on behalf of the state in order to put you in jail.

But lets pretend for a moment that you aren't some kind of blithering idiot.  Go ahead and produce one (1) instance of a corporation sentencing someone to years in jail.

I'll wait.
 
2013-02-03 05:48:57 PM  
Cops get away with things that don't involve other cops that have to testify against them....HOLY  SHIAT!
 
2013-02-03 05:49:46 PM  
Neil de Grasse Tyson on testimony

spoiler: he's not a big fan
 
2013-02-03 06:17:57 PM  
It's not as easy as putting it all on the cops, unfortunately. They lie because they get away with it...because most juries instinctively believe cops. So part of it is on the jury and the jury system. Put a guy on the stand in his uniform with ribbons all over it and identify him as Officer So&so with 14 years on the force, and the jury will believe him if he says he saw the defendant shooting heroin from 95 yards away in a dark alley from a moving patrol car at night. Who's more at fault here, the cop for lying or the jury for nodding stupidly and saying "Yep, it could be true?"

Cops also lie because society really really wants to put bad guys in prison and doesn't much care how they get there. It's all well and good to blast cops for lying; but how many people even right here on Fark will get upset when they learn about murderers, rapists and assorted thugs who had to be released due to lack of evidence? Or get mad when killers they were sure were guilty "get off" because the jury just couldn't be convinced? Well guess what, the cops are the ones who ultimately feel that pressure.

They also lie because of frustration, the same frustration some people have expressed right here on Fark. Sometimes, the suspect is so obviously guilty of a crime, and yet is so obviously not going to go to jail, the temptation to lie to make sure he goes to jail is just overwhelming. Like when they pull you over for speeding and your car reeks of marijuana and you can't string two words together without giggling uncontrollably between syllables and yet--somehow--you pass the field sobriety test. Easy to say they should let your stinking drunk wasted ass go and hope you don't kill anyone on the way home OR they could "find" some pot in your back seat. I'm not saying that's right, but it happens. Just like you wish your neighbor would leave the door open so the cops could actually SEE that meth lab when you call for the noise complaint. Oopsie!

If lawyers knew how to read police reports, a lot of this testilying would vanish, because they would know to ask, for instance, "So, officer Jones, did you see that pot on the car seat the first time you walked up to the vehicle or the second time?" instead of leaving it at "This officer saw the pot in plain view on the back seat of the vehicle when he approached the car." Hell, I could start a business teaching defense attorneys how to dissect police reports and probably cut testilying in half in a week (and spend years in prison after that). But people would rather just try to stop cop lying at the back end instead of at the front and hate on cops. Go for it.

Now I gotta go watch the Niners win the Superbowl.
 
2013-02-03 06:26:22 PM  

Acharne: It was a coherent and valid point.


Claiming that the US Supreme Court struck down the Stolen Valor Act for violating the 1st Amendment in order to protect the Police' ability to lie is your idea of a good point?
 
2013-02-03 06:35:16 PM  

SN1987a goes boom: ox45tallboy: That's actually a pretty good article.

The incentive IS there to lie, through artificial quotas and financial incentives such as property forfeitures. Especially since it's all for the greater good.

/the greater good

[encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com image 277x182]


Shut it!
 
2013-02-03 06:48:17 PM  
I'm a non-drinking, church-going, clean-cut college professor.  I got pulled over for a rolling stop at a stop sign.  My total conversation with the officer was "OK" and "yes sir".  I went to court to get the costs reduced.  The prosecutor had the police report which had me arguing and saying lots of stuff I never said.  I thought wow, if they lie so much about something so insignificant...
 
2013-02-03 07:05:03 PM  

Rent Party: albatros183: Rent Party: albatros183: Rent Party: NotoriousFire: machoprogrammer: They rarely save lives during a crime...

How many lives do you save each day? I agree there are corrupt cops, but there are corrupt anything (fire fighters, investors, CEOs, etc). But there are actual police heroes that save lives. Perhaps not often, perhaps not always - but they do exist. And I'd imagine they save more lives and add more to the public good than a lot of other individuals.

Firefighters, investors and CEOs don't have the ability to get you locked up for years at a time.

FTFY

No, you didn't.  Investors and CEOs don't have the ability to get you locked up for years at a time.

Cops do.

Right because investors and CEOs have no influence with the state at all...

Your just flat wrong, your employer can set you up anytime they want and people with money can buy the police anytime they want.

You are wrong.

You're a moron, dude.  Your employer's word isn't admissible as evidence, and your employer's job isn't to collect evidence on behalf of the state in order to put you in jail.

But lets pretend for a moment that you aren't some kind of blithering idiot.  Go ahead and produce one (1) instance of a corporation sentencing someone to years in jail.

I'll wait.


Clearly you don't understand how social systems work or the effects of status, also you do not understand how a society works in general, in particular ones that extort Law over all, Also let us assume that you are not just a shill setting up strawmen and that you actually believe the silliness you just said.

So here you go

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kids_for_cash_scandal
 
2013-02-03 07:09:54 PM  
i0.kym-cdn.com
 
2013-02-03 07:25:29 PM  

Gyrfalcon: Who's more at fault here, the cop for lying or the jury for nodding stupidly and saying "Yep, it could be true?"


Or the cop for intimidating the jurors.

What do you think happens to a juror who votes to convict a cop, or votes to acquit someone y'all want in prison or dead?  And, most jurors have families.
 
2013-02-03 07:50:37 PM  

WanPhat: I'm a non-drinking, church-going, clean-cut college professor.  I got pulled over for a rolling stop at a stop sign.  My total conversation with the officer was "OK" and "yes sir".  I went to court to get the costs reduced.  The prosecutor had the police report which had me arguing and saying lots of stuff I never said.  I thought wow, if they lie so much about something so insignificant...


This is why recording interactions with cops is important, and why they detest it.
 
2013-02-03 08:19:51 PM  

fnordfocus: Gyrfalcon: Who's more at fault here, the cop for lying or the jury for nodding stupidly and saying "Yep, it could be true?"

Or the cop for intimidating the jurors.

What do you think happens to a juror who votes to convict a cop, or votes to acquit someone y'all want in prison or dead?  And, most jurors have families.


You think that happens a lot in the majority of trials? I really doubt that your average drug bust or bank robbery trial features cops threatening juries or their families in order to put away some thug for five years. You need to loosen that tinfoil hat once in a while and just acknowledge that people are generally idiots.
 
2013-02-04 02:09:10 AM  

Because People in power are Stupid: I think I see an arrest in the future of this author.


20 years ago, my dad was a locally well-known journalist. He got after the cops for something along these lines.

Guess who got popped for multiple "broken" tail lights, 2 mph over the limit speeding tickets and littering incidents over the next few years?

/But all cops are heroes...
 
2013-02-04 04:16:58 AM  
More cops need to be convicted of perjury, like this one where I live.  I don't know him personally, but I know of him.  He started balling when he heard the guilty verdict.....and then he had to pay his compensation back....there's your hero....haha.  Of course he got a slap on the wrist, but hearing he started crying was just the frosting on the cake.


http://www.mailtribune.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20110407/NEWS0 7/ 104070334&cid=sitesearch

The jury took little more than an hour to find against Joshua Danrich by a count of 11 to 1. Danrich, a 12-year veteran of the Medford Police Department, broke down as Circuit Court Judge Tim Gerking sentenced him to community service and three years' supervised probation for the two guilty verdicts.

Danrich was fired from the MPD in January 2010 because he lied under oath about receiving a distracting phone call from his girlfriend that he said caused him to turn down the wrong street while responding to a routine nuisance call in August 2009. The state charged Danrich criminally because his lies allowed him to receive $12,818 in unemployment benefits, said Jodee Jackson, a special prosecutor from Douglas County.

Danrich took the stand on Wednesday and said his supervisor at the time, Lt. Greg Lemhouse, lambasted him during a performance review in September 2008. Danrich said he was being retaliated against for complaining to management that Lemhouse had made sexual advances toward his girlfriend.
 
2013-02-04 06:00:15 AM  

Rent Party: The One True TheDavid: How nice of the NYT to finally admit what leftists and marijuana advocates have been saying since, oh, 1966: cops routinely plant drugs on you and lie about it.

They actually have a name for that.  "Dropsy evidence."  As in "I drop it, then I see it."

The police in this country are as corrupt as anything.  Perjury, manufactured evidence, assault....  Take away the badge and the protection of the state, and what you have, quite literally, is an organized crime syndicate.


I trust the mob more than the police...you pay the mob for protection and someone beats/robs you they will kick in doors and break some bones (if they don't they look 'soft' and a rival family will take them out), the cops will 'file a report' (and have no 'rivals').
 
2013-02-04 06:25:50 AM  
From the town I live in...


Man wrongfully accused of child molestation, what this article doesn't tell you is that cop that accused him was farking dudes wife, and drummed up the charges that he molested his step-daughter (who later confessed she was in NO WAY molested) so he could 'get him out of the way'. Now for the REALLY messed up part....the cop still to this day works for the city.

 
Whatever you do...don't get pulled over in my town, and NEVER move here if you have a hot wife.
 
2013-02-04 11:28:58 AM  
Was surprised and pleased to see the Op-Ed piece was written by Michelle Alexander. Her book is a must-read.
 
2013-02-04 01:43:33 PM  
So who would you trust to tell the truth?  Your average cop, or the New York Times?
 
2013-02-04 02:26:19 PM  
albatros183:
So here you go

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kids_for_cash_scandal


So your evidence that CEOs can land you in the poke is a corrupt judge?

You're an idiot.  Really.  Don't breed, dude.  You are exactly what is wrong with the world.
 
2013-02-04 04:08:26 PM  

Rent Party: albatros183:
So here you go

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kids_for_cash_scandal

So your evidence that CEOs can land you in the poke is a corrupt judge?

You're an idiot.  Really.  Don't breed, dude.  You are exactly what is wrong with the world.


You asked, and he/she presented you with a valid case of it happening, so you become upset and resort to childish name-calling.
 
2013-02-04 04:26:16 PM  

Awesome T-Shirt: Rent Party: albatros183:
So here you go

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kids_for_cash_scandal

So your evidence that CEOs can land you in the poke is a corrupt judge?

You're an idiot.  Really.  Don't breed, dude.  You are exactly what is wrong with the world.

You asked, and he/she presented you with a valid case of it happening, so you become upset and resort to childish name-calling.


No, he didn't provide a valid case of it happening.  He provided a case of a corrupt judge, like police, armed with the power of the state to imprison you.   Remove the judge and how far does this go?   If anything he proved my point.

I take it you're not so smart, either.
 
2013-02-04 05:06:42 PM  
Rent Party
No, he didn't provide a valid case of it happening. He provided a case of a corrupt judge, like police, armed with the power of the state to imprison you. Remove the judge and how far does this go? If anything he proved my point.

The State is the means by which capitalists control us. If it wasn't that judge they'd find another one. If it wasn't through the courts they'd do it through paramilitaries.

Funny how libertarians are always saying, guns don't kill people, people do; but won't say, the State doesn't oppress people, capitalists do.
 
2013-02-04 06:41:42 PM  

Rent Party: Awesome T-Shirt: Rent Party: albatros183:
So here you go

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kids_for_cash_scandal

So your evidence that CEOs can land you in the poke is a corrupt judge?

You're an idiot.  Really.  Don't breed, dude.  You are exactly what is wrong with the world.

You asked, and he/she presented you with a valid case of it happening, so you become upset and resort to childish name-calling.

No, he didn't provide a valid case of it happening.  He provided a case of a corrupt judge, like police, armed with the power of the state to imprison you.   Remove the judge and how far does this go?   If anything he proved my point.

I take it you're not so smart, either.


By the CEO paying the judge, the judge is technically working for the CEO. Remove the CEO and see how far it goes.

Also, a final point unrelated to yours, the NYT author  asks whether jurors would be predisposed to believe a guy in an orange jumpsuit or two clean-cut, well-dressed police officers.

The US Supreme Court answered that question almost a century ago, if memory serves, ruling that a defendant wearing traditional prison garb to trial is, in fact, prejudicial to the jury. The only times traditional prison garb is allowed are when there is NO jury present -- preliminary hearings before a judge, motions, etc. The author should be intelligent enough to have known this, but deliberately lied to paint an image in the reader's mind.
 
2013-02-04 09:26:08 PM  

Voiceofreason01: Acharne: It was a coherent and valid point.

Claiming that the US Supreme Court struck down the Stolen Valor Act for violating the 1st Amendment in order to protect the Police' ability to lie is your idea of a good point?


Well, that was a belief statement. That the Supreme Court struck down the law for 1st Amendment reasons is true, that it had a shadow reason for doing it is conjecture and opinion. I think the argument that making it against the law to lie would have other ramifications was clear and clearly presented.
 
2013-02-05 09:53:32 AM  
You're my new best friend.
 
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