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(The New York Times)   Because they can   (nytimes.com) divider line 109
    More: Obvious, American Justice, racial minorities, expletives, State Supreme Court in Brooklyn, New York City Police Department  
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15477 clicks; posted to Main » on 03 Feb 2013 at 1:53 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-02-03 10:57:28 AM  
... And get away with it too.
 
2013-02-03 12:04:05 PM  
That's actually a pretty good article.

The incentive IS there to lie, through artificial quotas and financial incentives such as property forfeitures. Especially since it's all for the greater good.

/the greater good
 
2013-02-03 01:32:02 PM  
You were swerving.


/bullshiat
 
2013-02-03 01:32:40 PM  
Obligatory. Glad I could post this early. You never talk to the police. Exercise your right to silence and lawyer up if you need to. The one time I dealt with a cop questioning me went poorly, and his police report was substandard. He even got my first name wrong in the report even though it should have been kind of easy to remember, we both had the same first name. Nice of him to get basic facts wrong, like my name (and I gave him my driver's license so he had the info!). The rest of his report left out other important facts.

I was lucky in that instead of my case being sent to court, it went before a magistrate who's decision spared me a criminal record and further lawyer costs. But in general I'd be wary of police.
 
2013-02-03 01:32:57 PM  
Sadly that article is far too accurate.  I have no idea what the solution to clean things up might be (especially considering that there will be so many powerful people vehemently against doing so) but it would be nice to do as my parents did & teach me that if there is a problem find a policeman.  These days I tell my kids that in general it seems that the LAST thing that you want to do is involve the police in any problem you may be having.

/unless of course that problem is an old dog that you can't bear to put down
//in which case having the police show up may take care of that for you
 
2013-02-03 01:50:11 PM  
I think I see an arrest in the future of this author.
 
2013-02-03 01:58:20 PM  
Ric Romero is writing for the NY Times. WTG hotshot.
 
2013-02-03 02:01:18 PM  
Oh good! Cop hate thread! Can never get too many of these on FARK.
 
2013-02-03 02:02:24 PM  
Anytime someone calls police heroes I laugh my ass off. They rarely save lives during a crime... 99% of the time they are there well after the crime has occurred and just do paperwork. Their main job is to bring revenue to the city via tickets and the for-profit prisons we have.
 
2013-02-03 02:02:31 PM  
Clearly they should be the only ones with assault weapons.
 
2013-02-03 02:03:57 PM  
If only there were some way to detect lies.
 
2013-02-03 02:04:19 PM  

machoprogrammer: They rarely save lives during a crime...


How many lives do you save each day? I agree there are corrupt cops, but there are corrupt anything (fire fighters, investors, CEOs, etc). But there are actual police heroes that save lives. Perhaps not often, perhaps not always - but they do exist. And I'd imagine they save more lives and add more to the public good than a lot of other individuals.
 
2013-02-03 02:04:43 PM  

Chach: Oh good! Cop hate thread! Can never get too many of these on FARK.

 
Exactly.
 
2013-02-03 02:07:01 PM  
I wont click any NYtimes links.
 
2013-02-03 02:07:20 PM  

Because People in power are Stupid: I think I see an arrest fatal accident in the future of this author.


If you dont teach your children to be scared shiatless by cops then you are setting them up for a future suprise tazing.  In austin they taze you for shiats and giggles.

/for the greater good.....
 
2013-02-03 02:07:24 PM  

Chach: Oh good! Cop hate thread! Can never get too many of these on FARK.


Because the tenor of the article was so rabid!  If you cannot see that there is something rotten with law enforcement in the United States these days, you're delusional.  The increased emphasis on paramilitary tactics and weapons rather than the old style of de-escalation and problem solving is killing trust in LEOs.  Even in people like me who have never had a particularly negative interaction with the police.
 
2013-02-03 02:09:17 PM  
"Because they can"

What? Login to read the article?
 
2013-02-03 02:12:17 PM  
How far they have strayed:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peelian_Principles
 
2013-02-03 02:12:41 PM  
it should be titled, "because its been incentivized.'
 
2013-02-03 02:12:53 PM  

machoprogrammer: Anytime someone calls police heroes I laugh my ass off. They rarely save lives during a crime... 99% of the time they are there well after the crime has occurred and just do paperwork. Their main job is to bring revenue to the city via tickets and the for-profit prisons we have.


Why complain? That is exactly what you want.

Everytime anything is done to prevent crime (stop and frisk, sting operations, etc) you decry it. Anytime there is a big enough police presence where there can be a fast enough response to a crime in progress, you yell "Police State!"

You get exactly the type of law enforcement you're asking for.
 
2013-02-03 02:13:39 PM  

BalugaJoe: I wont click any NYtimes links.


At the risk of making an inane post more inane, I'll bite. "Tell us BalugaJoe, why won't you click on NYtimes links?"
 
2013-02-03 02:15:05 PM  
So, most cops are the same type of people who would be in prison if they didn't have a badge. Got it.
 
2013-02-03 02:15:41 PM  
How nice of the NYT to finally admit what leftists and marijuana advocates have been saying since, oh, 1966: cops routinely plant drugs on you and lie about it.

The fact that this common knowledge might be news to some people is a frightening indicator of the failure of mass education to produce critical thinkers, a basic element in any democratic republic. People who routinely and habitually believe everything a cop says are too stupid to be allowed to drive or have kids, let alone vote or serve on a jury. Authority Figures should be approached with more skepticism and treated as people with increased incentive to lie and befudddle.

It's not that most Americans are born idiots, it's that our current system strongly encourages idiocy in most people, which by age 18 is usually so ingrained that it cannot be unlearned. And don't imagine that "higher education" can cure it: the vast majority of Ameruca's elected politicians and unelected appartchiks have at least a college degree, and there are few intellectual titans among them.

And why? If hoi polloi are taught to be stupid and gullible they will be incapable of understanding how and why they're being farked over, let alone frame a coherent challenge to the "Thrones and Dominions."
 
2013-02-03 02:16:13 PM  
I had no defense but my word against six police officer's pre-trial testimony until one slipped up and mentioned that they had a video that hadn't been introduced as evidence. I mean, really, why would you when it contradicted everything they said.

After the judge reviewed it the case was dismissed but it cost me $3500 in attorney fees up to that point. There were no consequences for the police.

Their impunity from perjury is a huge problem. My opinion is that we wouldn't have so many civil suits against PD's if they'd prosecute them when they break the law.
 
2013-02-03 02:16:37 PM  
Chach:

Oh good! Cop hate thread! Can never get too many of these on FARK.

Few groups or "professions" deserve it more.
 
2013-02-03 02:17:55 PM  
"Peter Keane, a former San Francisco Police commissioner :...""...undercover narcotics officers intentionally lying under oath. It is a perversion of the American justice system that strikes directly at the rule of law. Yet it is the routine way of doing business in courtrooms everywhere in America.""

Since this is the purpose of laws; to allow those in power to game the system, it's not a perversion at all but an INTENTION.
 
2013-02-03 02:19:01 PM  
Easy enough problem to solve.  Two items:

1./ Stop doing the "hand on the Bible" thing while promising to tell the truth.  Everyone gets hooked up to a polygraph while on the stand.  Yes, there will be people who will beat it and there will be people who will false positive...but those numbers will be lower than the ones generated by everyone who is lying on the stand.  You want perfection?  You can't have it.  You want more truth (or be able to tell when what you're hearing isn't true), this does that.

2./ Start handing out serious effing sentences for perjury.  Having a witness verbally fence with the prosecutor and judge over the definition of "is" is farking stupid.  If you lie on the stand, you've committed perjury.  Period.  And now you go to jail.  Period.  Imagine how many cops will want to run the risk of going to jail such that they think lying on the stand is an option.  I'd imagine not very many.
 
2013-02-03 02:19:12 PM  
NotoriousFire:

[T]here are actual police heroes that save lives. Perhaps not often, perhaps not always - but they do exist. And I'd imagine they save more lives and add more to the public good than a lot of other individuals.

Would you like to buy some first-class beachfront property in Lexington, KY?
 
2013-02-03 02:19:23 PM  

Chach: Oh good! Cop hate thread! Can never get too many of these on FARK.


It's sad that it's gotten to the point where some people hate cops so much that's all they can do whenever it gets brought up.

Cops are human. I've had cops tell me they will lie their ass off if they nab incriminating evidence during a search if they found it by illegal means. I've had a cop write me a ticket while listing off a story that was completely contrary to what I stated. I've known a lot of good cops too.

Ultimately cops like to be in control of their surroundings and they like seeing people they don't like go to jail. The best way to handle this is to make sure you have good people as cops.
 
2013-02-03 02:20:01 PM  
Why do dogs lick their balls?
 
2013-02-03 02:20:57 PM  

Otto_E_Rodika: Why do dogs lick their balls?


To get to the other side?
 
2013-02-03 02:22:31 PM  
FTFA"
a New York City police officer named Adil Polanco told a local ABC News reporter that "our primary job is not to help anybody, our primary job is not to assist anybody, our primary job is to get those numbers and come back with them." He continued: "At the end of the night you have to come back with something.  You have to write somebody, you have to arrest somebody, even if the crime is not committed, the number's there. So our choice is to come up with the number."

This is the kind of thing I point to when I explain why you need to be absolutely sure that you want to report a crime.  If they do not find someone easily, it is your ass they are hauling off.
 
2013-02-03 02:24:49 PM  

craig328: Easy enough problem to solve.  Two items:

2./ Start handing out serious effing sentences for perjury.  Having a witness verbally fence with the prosecutor and judge over the definition of "is" is farking stupid.  If you lie on the stand, you've committed perjury.  Period.  And now you go to jail.  Period.  Imagine how many cops will want to run the risk of going to jail such that they think lying on the stand is an option.  I'd imagine not very many.


This will only work if police get a mandatory life sentence for perjury.
 
2013-02-03 02:26:51 PM  

Awesome T-Shirt: machoprogrammer: Anytime someone calls police heroes I laugh my ass off. They rarely save lives during a crime... 99% of the time they are there well after the crime has occurred and just do paperwork. Their main job is to bring revenue to the city via tickets and the for-profit prisons we have.

Why complain? That is exactly what you want.

Everytime anything is done to prevent crime (stop and frisk, sting operations, etc) you decry it. Anytime there is a big enough police presence where there can be a fast enough response to a crime in progress, you yell "Police State!"

You get exactly the type of law enforcement you're asking for.

 To quote the article: Even where no clear financial incentives exist, the "get tough" movement has warped police culture to such a degree that police chiefs and individual officers feel pressured to meet stop-and-frisk or arrest quotas in order to prove their "productivity."


So what were you trying to say?
 
2013-02-03 02:28:48 PM  

albatros183: "Peter Keane, a former San Francisco Police commissioner :...""...undercover narcotics officers intentionally lying under oath. It is a perversion of the American justice system that strikes directly at the rule of law. Yet it is the routine way of doing business in courtrooms everywhere in America.""


Since this is the purpose of laws; to allow those in power to game the system, it's not a perversion at all but an INTENTION.

[Emphasis added to indicate strong agreement.]
 
2013-02-03 02:29:01 PM  
My cousin's husband was a police officer for 20 years.  Over Christmas I asked him if the whole "quota" for speeding tickets thing was true.

He said no they didn't have it when he was there or they didn't threaten to put you on a desk job for not writing tickets... but he did say that motorcycle cops are nothing but a ticket revenue stream.


//really nice guy now that he's been out of the biz for the last 10 years.
 
2013-02-03 02:29:56 PM  

Mrbogey: Chach: Oh good! Cop hate thread! Can never get too many of these on FARK.

It's sad that it's gotten to the point where some people hate cops so much that's all they can do whenever it gets brought up.

Cops are human. I've had cops tell me they will lie their ass off if they nab incriminating evidence during a search if they found it by illegal means. I've had a cop write me a ticket while listing off a story that was completely contrary to what I stated. I've known a lot of good cops too.

Ultimately cops like to be in control of their surroundings and they like seeing people they don't like go to jail. The best way to handle this is to make sure you have good people as cops.


I can also beat people I don't like up.
I don't pretend that I have some other authority than myself.

If I have a gang does that make me legit?, it makes me right, right.

/Go on a death camp tour, your a villager.
//Godwin, but with what is happening in the States and thus the rest of the world it's becoming very not funny.
 
2013-02-03 02:32:27 PM  
Unlike most big problems, there's a pretty simple fix for this one:

1.  Require all cops to keep a mini audio/video camera clipped to their shirt at all times when on duty, with the recordings automatically going to a third-party escrow.

2.  Send cops to prison when they're caught committing perjury.

And, if you really want to do a thourough job  of fixing gthe problem,

3.  End the war on drugs.


Too bad these simple fixes are politically impossible  to actually do.
 
2013-02-03 02:32:51 PM  

ox45tallboy: That's actually a pretty good article.

The incentive IS there to lie, through artificial quotas and financial incentives such as property forfeitures. Especially since it's all for the greater good.

/the greater good


encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com
 
2013-02-03 02:33:18 PM  

rev. dave: craig328: Easy enough problem to solve.  Two items:

2./ Start handing out serious effing sentences for perjury.  Having a witness verbally fence with the prosecutor and judge over the definition of "is" is farking stupid.  If you lie on the stand, you've committed perjury.  Period.  And now you go to jail.  Period.  Imagine how many cops will want to run the risk of going to jail such that they think lying on the stand is an option.  I'd imagine not very many.

This will only work if police get a mandatory life sentence for perjury.


I don't think that's necessary, TBH.  For example: cop lies, cop gets caught lying, cop gets charged with and convicted of perjury and does some time (maybe 30 days say).

Now, cop is out of jail for lying on the stand in court.  His employer...wants him back?  Not likely but his union will prolly figure out a way to make that happen.  But as an officer of the law, how much is his testimony worth now?  Keep in mind, if he does testify again, he's doing it hooked up to a polygraph.  But then again, he did also have to spend 30 days in jail alongside the people he and his buddies have been tossing in there.

I think it would be a pretty good deterrent...IF you can get the judges behind it.
 
2013-02-03 02:37:25 PM  

The One True TheDavid: Awesome T-Shirt: machoprogrammer: Anytime someone calls police heroes I laugh my ass off. They rarely save lives during a crime... 99% of the time they are there well after the crime has occurred and just do paperwork. Their main job is to bring revenue to the city via tickets and the for-profit prisons we have.

Why complain? That is exactly what you want.

Everytime anything is done to prevent crime (stop and frisk, sting operations, etc) you decry it. Anytime there is a big enough police presence where there can be a fast enough response to a crime in progress, you yell "Police State!"

You get exactly the type of law enforcement you're asking for.
 To quote the article: Even where no clear financial incentives exist, the "get tough" movement has warped police culture to such a degree that police chiefs and individual officers feel pressured to meet stop-and-frisk or arrest quotas in order to prove their "productivity."


So what were you trying to say?


What you're quoting in regards to my response makes no sense. Perhaps you're taking what I'm saying out of its context. Just because no financial incentive exists in some cases doesn't mean that police chiefs aren't being pressured by their bosses (politicians) to have their officers do proactive police work, but that's not what I was even talking about in the first place.

Right or wrong, people will always be unhappy with how the police handle things.
 
2013-02-03 02:38:24 PM  

Recoil Therapy: I have no idea what the solution to clean things up might be...


Ending the War On Drugs would be a good start

/the only real solution involves a comprehensive change in the way we look at law enforcement and the criminal justice system. "Tough on Crime" initiatives need to go and replaced with an emphasis on rehabilitating people and helping them to contribute to society rather than punishing the guilty.
 
2013-02-03 02:42:20 PM  
Power tripping adrenalin junkies, trained and encouraged to lie and coerce every citizen they meet while on the job into waiving their constitutional rights. That alone is their primary function when faced with any citizen they are suspicious of. Given para-military equipment and military training they itch to use it. The smiling policemen knocking on your door are quite likely the most dangerous animals a civilized person will ever encounter. Don't answer.
 
2013-02-03 02:43:20 PM  

Voiceofreason01: Ending the War On Drugs would be a good start


Ditto the War on Terror.
 
2013-02-03 02:44:20 PM  

craig328: rev. dave: craig328: Easy enough problem to solve.  Two items:

2./ Start handing out serious effing sentences for perjury.  Having a witness verbally fence with the prosecutor and judge over the definition of "is" is farking stupid.  If you lie on the stand, you've committed perjury.  Period.  And now you go to jail.  Period.  Imagine how many cops will want to run the risk of going to jail such that they think lying on the stand is an option.  I'd imagine not very many.

This will only work if police get a mandatory life sentence for perjury.

I don't think that's necessary, TBH.  For example: cop lies, cop gets caught lying, cop gets charged with and convicted of perjury and does some time (maybe 30 days say).

Now, cop is out of jail for lying on the stand in court.  His employer...wants him back?  Not likely but his union will prolly figure out a way to make that happen.  But as an officer of the law, how much is his testimony worth now?  Keep in mind, if he does testify again, he's doing it hooked up to a polygraph.  But then again, he did also have to spend 30 days in jail alongside the people he and his buddies have been tossing in there.

I think it would be a pretty good deterrent...IF you can get the judges behind it.


Happy day, sorry but laws don't apply to cops period.
here in TO cops where and are randomly stopping people and demanding ID (they were doing it downtown around the G20) even though that is explicitly illegal, when one of the units of the drug squad got sent to trial they crown deliberately screwed things up and the trial was dragged out so long it got thrown out.
No cop was ever held accountable for taking someone on the " Cherry beach express".

Laws exist to keep people in power, things may be more extreme in the States than some other western nations but the principle is the same.

Cops only exist because the army was to sympathetic to the people it was trying to oppress.
 
2013-02-03 02:46:36 PM  
http://i.imgur.com/LQxPm9f.gif">
 
2013-02-03 02:47:11 PM  

craig328: Now, cop is out of jail for lying on the stand in court.  His employer...wants him back?  Not likely but his union will prolly figure out a way to make that happen.  But as an officer of the law, how much is his testimony worth now?  Keep in mind, if he does testify again, he's doing it hooked up to a polygraph.  But then again, he did also have to spend 30 days in jail alongside the people he and his buddies have been tossing in there.

I think it would be a pretty good deterrent...IF you can get the judges behind it.


Was going to say *this* right here.

It really isn't necessary to give a cop a long sentence for perjury.  If a cop is caught lying on the stand or otherwise has his integrity marked, even once for anything, that cop is finished as a trial witness.  The circumstances will be be known by every defense attorney for a 50 mile radius and the indiscretion will come up should he ever testify again.
 
2013-02-03 02:48:12 PM  

Voiceofreason01: Recoil Therapy: I have no idea what the solution to clean things up might be...

Ending the War On Drugs would be a good start

/the only real solution involves a comprehensive change in the way we look at law enforcement and the criminal justice system. "Tough on Crime" initiatives need to go and replaced with an emphasis on rehabilitating people and helping them to contribute to society rather than punishing the guilty.


The problem is that they have an income stream which cannot be replaced easily.

Q: How can the police make as much or even more money than they do with the drug war?
A: Give them permission  to confiscate and liquidate all assets of anyone suspected of fraud in the banking and securities sector.  After retroactively setting the statute of limitations to 75 years.

Oh after that, who the hell cares about drugs anymore?
 
2013-02-03 02:49:56 PM  

corn-bread: craig328: Now, cop is out of jail for lying on the stand in court.  His employer...wants him back?  Not likely but his union will prolly figure out a way to make that happen.  But as an officer of the law, how much is his testimony worth now?  Keep in mind, if he does testify again, he's doing it hooked up to a polygraph.  But then again, he did also have to spend 30 days in jail alongside the people he and his buddies have been tossing in there.

I think it would be a pretty good deterrent...IF you can get the judges behind it.

Was going to say *this* right here.

It really isn't necessary to give a cop a long sentence for perjury.  If a cop is caught lying on the stand or otherwise has his integrity marked, even once for anything, that cop is finished as a trial witness.  The circumstances will be be known by every defense attorney for a 50 mile radius and the indiscretion will come up should he ever testify again.


yes since attempting to kidnap someone for x years should not be punished by more than loosing your job.
 
2013-02-03 02:50:10 PM  
the answer is found in the lyrics of DJ Shadow's "Why Hip Hop Sucks in '96", from his brilliant album Endtroducing. the lyrics, in their entirety:

It's the money.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s2VG53RIJ50
 
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