If you can read this, either the style sheet didn't load or you have an older browser that doesn't support style sheets. Try clearing your browser cache and refreshing the page.

(Seattle Times)   To the Farkers that predicted Boeing's extensive outsourcing and lack of oversight on the 787 design would come back to bit them in the ass, stand up and say 'I told you so'   (seattletimes.com) divider line 168
    More: Fail, Boeing  
•       •       •

14712 clicks; posted to Main » on 03 Feb 2013 at 8:09 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



168 Comments   (+0 »)
   
View Voting Results: Smartest and Funniest

Archived thread
 
2013-02-03 08:10:34 AM
If it's Boeing, I'm not going.
 
2013-02-03 08:11:53 AM

Mad Scientist: If it's Boeing, I'm not going.


Done in one.
 
2013-02-03 08:12:20 AM
I thought about saying something, then I was all, like, "Watch shis thit!"
 
2013-02-03 08:12:24 AM
Outsourcing shiat to third world countries known for half assing shiat at the expense of American stupidity isn't a good idea still? Who'da thunk it?
 
2013-02-03 08:12:48 AM
fail.brm.sk
 
2013-02-03 08:14:26 AM

styckx: Outsourcing shiat to third world countries known for half assing shiat at the expense of American stupidity isn't a good idea still? Who'da thunk it?


Hey it's cheap and most of the time it works.
 
2013-02-03 08:16:32 AM

styckx: Outsourcing shiat to third world countries known for half assing shiat at the expense of American stupidity isn't a good idea still? Who'da thunk it?


Damned shareholders and other assorted paper shufflers, who don't give a flying fark about the long-term consequences to jobs or the public as long as the original decision to outsource and supposedly better value makes enough for them to make a killing when they unload their poisoned stock on some poor sucker.
 
2013-02-03 08:18:29 AM
If it's bit, then it's shiat. If it's bite, you're doing it right.
 
2013-02-03 08:20:06 AM
A lot of grocery baggers with engineering degrees in the Everett WA are feeling pretty smug right now.
 
2013-02-03 08:20:31 AM
wait wait wait, are you telling me quality and cost are directly related? Umpossible.
 
2013-02-03 08:21:07 AM

EvilEgg: styckx: Outsourcing shiat to third world countries known for half assing shiat at the expense of American stupidity isn't a good idea still? Who'da thunk it?

Hey it's cheap and most of the time it works.


that's a WONDERFUL thing to tell people just before you get on a plane.
 
2013-02-03 08:21:32 AM

styckx: Outsourcing shiat to third world countries known for half assing shiat at the expense of American stupidity isn't a good idea still? Who'da thunk it?


Hey, gotta pay for those multi-million dollar exec bonuses some how. And the best part is many of the execs that pushed for outsourcing are long gone.
 
2013-02-03 08:22:48 AM
Mad Scientist: If it's Boeing, I'm not going.

"Boeing faces an indefinite grounding of the Dreamliner because of a battery fire"

Battery Fire Dreamlighter
 
2013-02-03 08:23:43 AM
But Radio Shack parts mean that they just have to pop into any Mall and get replacements, right?
 
2013-02-03 08:24:48 AM

BiffSpiffy: But Radio Shack parts mean that they just have to pop into any Mall and get replacements, right?


Only if you're looking for a new phone contract.
 
2013-02-03 08:27:24 AM
From all the science I've seen, you can survive a plane malfunction by using a dingy to float onto the ground.

People should STFU and buy a dingy.
 
2013-02-03 08:28:39 AM
Unlike earlier Boeing jets, he said, the innards of the 787 power distribution panels - which control the flow of electricity to the plane's many systems - are "like Radio Shack," with parts that are "cheap, plastic and prone to failure."

http://www.theonion.com/articles/even-ceo-cant-figure-out-how-radios ha ck-still-in-b,2190/
 
2013-02-03 08:29:05 AM

GungFu: From all the science I've seen, you can survive a plane malfunction by using a dingy to float onto the ground.

People should STFU and buy a dingy.


Didn't the Mythbusters say that was terrifying but plausible.
 
2013-02-03 08:29:38 AM
Perhaps there aren't enough liberal arts majors at Boeing.
 
2013-02-03 08:30:22 AM
And some executive still got a fat bonus for it.
 
2013-02-03 08:31:36 AM
Doesn't matter, they'll just buy a few Senators to pass a law mandating the government purchase 5000 of them at a steep markup as part of the next defense spending bill.
 
2013-02-03 08:35:15 AM
BiffSpiffy: But Radio Shack parts mean that they just have to pop into any Mall and get replacements, right?

Only if you're looking for a new phone contract.


Yeah, but with that fancy phone you can call your family members to say goodby, but you might get voice mail which means you will have to Choose the Language press #1 for English, #2 for French, #3 for Mandarin #4 Canadian, then pick #1 Fire, #2 Loss of Power, #3 Loss of Oxy.....
 
2013-02-03 08:36:29 AM
"The supplier management organization (at Boeing) didn't have diddly-squat in terms of engineering capability when they sourced all that work," he said.

Interesting, since the supplier management organization (at Boeing) thought they were red hot.
 
2013-02-03 08:37:06 AM

generallyso: And some executive still got a fat bonus for it.


Shenanigans like that paid off for management in other big multinational corporations ( HP ).  Plausible.

/ wish I could "fail upward" with a golden parachute in my career..
 
2013-02-03 08:37:32 AM
Boeing is certainly bad enough, but let us not forget that a good portion of the country almost elected another person with a long history of outsourcing and he would have been president. So really is this "787 revelation" comes as little surprise when viewed in light of corporate leadership that spends more time negotiating their golden parachutes than making sound business decisions or worrying about their employees, or the safety of their customers, or the safety of the customers of their customers and so on and so forth.

On a related note.....what do corporations and soylent green have in common?
 
2013-02-03 08:39:21 AM
This is just part of a larger result of letting wall street run the country for the benefit of a few.

When idiots scream about "WE GOTTA TAKE OUR COUNTRY BACK", I wonder how many realize who it is we really have to take our country back from.

Reaping the whirlwind, we are.
 
2013-02-03 08:39:22 AM
Maybe Boeing should just rename it the Screamliner or the Flying Nightmare.
 
2013-02-03 08:41:38 AM
"The supplier management organization (at Boeing) didn't have diddly-squat in terms of engineering capability when they sourced all that work," he said.

You mean a part of Boeing, a company that when they bought MD the first thing they did was let go a ton of engineers, didn't have any engineering staff handy? You're shiatting me.
 
2013-02-03 08:42:37 AM
I blame the Unions.

If they had not been so greedy, Boeing wouldn't have been forced to outsource to remain cost competitive.
 
2013-02-03 08:44:37 AM
Yes, Japanese manufacturers are known for their crappy technology and inattention to detail.  And would you rather rely on Boeing's in-house lithium battery expertise?

Everyone outsources everything.  Most companies (Apple and perhaps every other computer company) don't ever even touch any phase of their production.  It's efficient, cost effective and lets companies take advantage of best-in-class technology and fabrication.  It's just how things are done now, not some evil conspiracy.

/still wearing tinfoil hat
/just in case
 
2013-02-03 08:46:04 AM
Boeing:

You worry so we don't have to.

Wait...
 
2013-02-03 08:46:36 AM
If you want something done right you have to do it yourself

/seriously Boeing, you went full retard
 
2013-02-03 08:47:02 AM
Boeing's in-house union engineers pointing the fingers at everyone else?  Color me shocked.  They may be correct, but I'll wait for someone with a slightly smaller axe to grind before I pass judgment on how this happened.
 
2013-02-03 08:54:15 AM
There has never been a recall of an 100% american made product. Ever.
 
2013-02-03 08:59:51 AM

homelessdude: Boeing is certainly bad enough, but let us not forget that a good portion of the country almost elected another person with a long history of outsourcing and he would have been president. So really is this "787 revelation" comes as little surprise when viewed in light of corporate leadership that spends more time negotiating their golden parachutes than making sound business decisions or worrying about their employees, or the safety of their customers, or the safety of the customers of their customers and so on and so forth.

On a related note.....what do corporations and soylent green have in common?


Bu-bu-bu UNIONS!
 
2013-02-03 09:01:45 AM

BiffSpiffy: But Radio Shack parts mean that they just have to pop into any Mall and get replacements, right?


Popping into a mall in midflight is frowned upon by the FAA.

/that's the kind of overregulation that makes things tough for small businesses like Boeing
 
2013-02-03 09:01:55 AM

styckx: Outsourcing shiat to third world countries known for half assing shiat at the expense of American stupidity isn't a good idea still? Who'da thunk it?


FTFA:

"Since the battery and its monitoring system were made in Japan, and all the connected pieces were integrated by French company Thales "

Third world?

PS - If Americans are stupid, why would you want *them* to build it?
 
2013-02-03 09:05:06 AM
Don't know why you guys are all against outsourcing parts and labor for aircraft.

It worked wonders for the F22.

Oh wait...
 
2013-02-03 09:06:01 AM

beefoe: Everyone outsources everything.  Most companies (Apple and perhaps every other computer company) don't ever even touch any phase of their production.  It's efficient, cost effective and lets companies take advantage of best-in-class technology and fabrication.  It's just how things are done now, not some evil conspiracy.


I agree with the thought of outsourcing as a viable business and manufacturing method. It makes sense and while it hurts domestically, it is the way the world works. For my part, I deal every single day with the barrage of low cost providers in my field from outside of my country. It drives me crazy but it also drives me to improve my skillset to stay ahead of the pack. It is the only way to stay viable in my field.

The problem though with outsourcing is that all too often, the decision to outsource is not to take advantage of "best-in-class technology and fabrication". Instead, it is due to people channeling the work flow where the bottom line is paramount and not the product. Yes, companies need to make their money and all that and profit is good and necessary for corporate survival. But when a completely inferior product is created (and in this case, maybe a truly fatal flaw), then the methods of production and the reasons for choosing those techniques must be questioned. I am no aerospace engineer by any stretch or a production guru, but after so many mis-steps in the 787's short life, it is difficult not to be at least a little skeptical.

Something is rotten in Denmark....or Seattle as it were.
 
2013-02-03 09:09:24 AM
I informed you thusly.
 
2013-02-03 09:11:34 AM
So they tried the Airbus model and found that it didn't work??
 
2013-02-03 09:12:35 AM
Dumb article. Everyone knows it is only the union made planes that are having issues.
 
2013-02-03 09:16:57 AM
this all began when the Feds had Boeing bail out/buy McDonald Douglas, the Douglas execs were put on Boeings board and eventually became a majority.   the company moved it's HQ to the Douglas HQ in Chicago,  and started a massive outsourcing campaign.   They laid off 1/5th of the Boeing workers in favor of the outsource people.

Suddenly the McD scandles and corruption was hitting boeing.  Remember the Air Tanker Fiasco?  All Douglas execs, all corrupt.
 
2013-02-03 09:17:11 AM

jeffowl: I blame the Unions.

If they had not been so greedy, Boeing wouldn't have been forced to outsource to remain cost competitive.


You get what you pay for. That includes labor.

How competitive is Boeing looking now?
 
2013-02-03 09:18:05 AM

fatbear: styckx: Outsourcing shiat to third world countries known for half assing shiat at the expense of American stupidity isn't a good idea still? Who'da thunk it?

FTFA:

"Since the battery and its monitoring system were made in Japan, and all the connected pieces were integrated by French company Thales "

Third world?

PS - If Americans are stupid, why would you want *them* to build



Widen your horizons, that's low level logic. Everyone knows fat men in Kentucky build some of the fastest cars in the world.  Stupid people are needed to build airplanes (parts) that (boeing) engineers design, because you teach them how to do one and only one f@ck!n& thing right.  Don't let them touch anything else.
 
2013-02-03 09:22:54 AM
My iPhone was built by outsourcing to soulless companies whose employees are suicidal. Let's let them build airplane parts!
 
2013-02-03 09:26:13 AM

beefoe: It's efficient, cost effective and lets companies take advantage of best-in-class technology and fabrication.


Except, it's not, not necessarily and not very often.

madgordy: , the Douglas execs were put on Boeings board and eventually became a majority


And yet it was Boeing that laid off a fark ton of MD engineers, particularly the most senior ones.
 
2013-02-03 09:27:41 AM

Cataholic: Boeing's in-house union engineers pointing the fingers at everyone else?  Color me shocked.  They may be correct, but I'll wait for someone with a slightly smaller axe to grind before I pass judgment on how this happened.


Yeah, goldarn them Union Thugs.  Who the hell do they think they are, wanting to be paid a decent fraction of what the work is worth?  CEOs?

Boeing tried to get quality work for schitt pay, and you wingnuts are shocked -- SHOCKED! -- that it didn't work out for them.
 
2013-02-03 09:28:15 AM
I was looking forward to a resurgence of a form of cottage industry, such as much British manufacturing employed prior to the '70s. Having groups of suppliers providing parts that are assembled into a greater thing can work. Every arm or the industry must assume a share in responsibility (and pride) in the outcome.

Nothing wrong with the part being made in Japan (a la Boeing) as long as they hold interest in the overall outcome. Perhaps a significant portion of profits derived only from the resulting end-product, in place of exclusively direct up-front sales.

Boeing's fault was, as Hart-Smith predicted, that they outsourced risk and responsibility along with most of the work. That work was tiered at such distance that there was a dilution in share of responsibility for the overall outcome, potentially not much interest at all. Each supply chain tier needs to be completely engaged in the end product, not only the concern in a low-cost provider as we're experiencing here.
 
2013-02-03 09:30:01 AM

BiffSpiffy: But Radio Shack parts mean that they just have to pop into any Mall and get replacements, right?


But you have giving them your goddamned ZIP code every time.
 
2013-02-03 09:32:07 AM

Lee Jackson Beauregard: Boeing tried to get quality work for schitt pay, and you wingnuts are shocked -- SHOCKED! -- that it didn't work out for them.


It's not just that, Boeing has a long history of discouraging engineers from getting their PE certifications. An aerospace or aeronautical engineer with a PE can command a much higher salary than one without it. However an engineer without it can't sign off on their own work. And if you have something with as many parts and assemblies as an airliner and not enough engineers with PE's you get a nice back log of work. Of course it's not like the engineers at Boeing get to really do much, the heads of the various divisions aren't engineers and force the top engineers into meeting after meeting, on top of all the meetings without engineers there. And the meetings are the sort of things the engineers hate. Like meetings to discuss change requests, changes the design system can handle in real time without a problem. Basically management is acting like everyone is at a drafting table with a slide rule, while the engineers are cursing at their work stations they have to fill out change requests and get them approved, which can take a week.
 
2013-02-03 09:33:50 AM
Boeing's problem isn't that they outsourced manufacture.  Outsourcing manufacturing and assembly demonstrably works (look at Apple).  Outsourcing parts manufacturing to be later assembled by your own people demonstrably works (look at the auto industry).  In both of these cases, the designers and engineers are in-house.  Apple doesn't go to Foxxconn or any of its other suppliers and say "We need to refresh our smartphone lineup.  Please design a swank one for us.  Kthx."  Similarly, no serious auto company is going to allow a third party outsourcer to design their brake system or transmission.  In both cases, Apple and the car companies, design is done in-house.  Once they're satisfied with the fit and finish, they give detailed specifications to their suppliers.  You may even recall Foxxconn whining that Apple's iphone5 specifications were too exacting.

Boeing, on the other hand, tried to outsource way too early in the design phase.  Their engineers didn't first design the plane, build one and tweak things until they were satisfied and then produce a detailed set of specifications for their suppliers.  Instead, their suppliers essentially designed the parts themselves with little or no apparent oversight.  Saying to your suppliers "You figure it out" rarely works as intended.
 
2013-02-03 09:36:46 AM

arcas: Similarly, no serious auto company is going to allow a third party outsourcer to design their brake system or transmission



Not entirely true as far as transmissions go, the big two for transmissions ZF and Getrag both design stuff in house and various car makers will pick what fits their needs and then perhaps request changes, like to the size of the case or something else. Also both companies are so experienced that the car companies will come to them and tell them what they need and have them design it. But that's because both ZF and Getrag know what they're doing and have a long history of doing it very very well, their reputations ride on not farking things up.
 
2013-02-03 09:39:27 AM
Yeah, we said it. We screamed it from the rooftops. We told them that this would turn out to be a nightmare. The conversations my old company had with Boeing regarding how much work we could take in from them vs. the amount of work available from other sources, Boeing flat out telling us that if we wanted to make parts for them, we couldn't turn down a contract (bid exclusively on THEIR terms at the prices THEY dictate) and our other customers would have to wait. So we have to start turning down work from other customers, while we wait for Boeing to deliver their own certified materials that we aren't allowed to get anywhere else.

What Boeing does, once a small machine shop starts bidding on and doing their parts, is increase their level of work to the point where other customers are sacrificed to make room for doing Boeing work. They escalate this to the point where no other customers are needed (sez the bossman) and the company gets fat, buys new, very expensive machines (on credit) to conform to Boeing reliability standards, hires high salary programmers and administration staff to accommodate the growth, moves into a larger building (on credit) and goes to huge expense to meet inspection and shopworthiness criteria (cleanliness, organized according to Boeing Standards, six Sigma bullshiat and ANSI etc etc etc) hires a consultant or two to help the shop conform to those standards (@ $80-$100,000/year each who then milk the game until the bossman realized he's being farkED.)

Then, after Boeing totally monopolizes the shop and floods it with so much work that it can never get done in time, (yeah, weekly surprise "emergencies" WE NEED THIS NOW AIRCRAFT ON GROUND AND NO EXPENSE SPARED) they yank the rug out from under the company because lag time causes increasing delays in deliveries, not to mention the stupid bullshiat castings that Boeing delivers that must be machined RIGHT NOW but somehow, are never consistent enough coming in the door to build reliable tooling for, and we spend weeks, goddamn WEEKS re-engineering and refining those fixtures at our own expense to get a consistent part run, because Boeing cannot spare an extra .05 of an inch of material on the profile of each one to allow for machining. They demand a zero-level scrap rate, and will repeatedly reject parts that are perfectly in conformance just to save their own warehouse space and provide them with an excuse to "negotiate" a lower price, "or else".

Boeing specializes in totally screwing over and destroying small machine shops. Anyone that delves into doing small-shop level work for Boeing goes out of business within six or seven years. Once you agree to a sourcing contract, they dictate the prices of the parts you make even if that price won't even pay the wages of the workers actually making the parts, and there is no room for error. I've watched shops go from a half dozen or so top-notch machinists to 40 mediocre and barely trained operators on million-dollar machines in a shop with painted floors in temperature controlled buildings, to ZERO in the span of about 4-5 years. They do this over, and over, and over again.

After all of that, they then start contracting with foreign firms to make the same parts, and what they get is a 90% scrap rate and they still make money as they can afford to pay for the surplus material required to compensate for that.

Boeing can go to hell.
 
2013-02-03 09:40:13 AM
im just happy nobody died due to this plane crashing. Yet.
 
2013-02-03 09:42:43 AM
Fast
Cheap
Good
Choose two.
 
2013-02-03 09:52:58 AM
madgordy: this all began when the Feds had Boeing bail out/buy McDonald1Douglas, the Douglas execs were put on Boeings board and eventually became a majority.   the company moved it's HQ to the Douglas HQ in Chicago2,  and started a massive outsourcing campaign.   They laid off 1/5th of the Boeing workers in favor of the outsource people.

Suddenly the McD scandles and corruption was hitting boeing.  Remember the Air Tanker Fiasco?  All Douglas execs, all corrupt.

1) Its McDonnell
2) McDonnell Douglas had it headquarters in St Louis, and if you're referring to the pre-merger Douglas Aircraft Company, that was based in L.A.
 
2013-02-03 09:57:26 AM
Wait, you mean refusing to pay in-house folks a few bucks more to do it right is a bad idea?  WHOA!
 
2013-02-03 10:00:12 AM

ComaToast: My iPhone was built by outsourcing to soulless companies whose employees are suicidal. Let's let them build airplane parts!


that iphone is perty good huh, the made in the usa smart phones not so much
 
2013-02-03 10:00:21 AM
Scarebus! Scarebus!!

Ooops ... wrong thread.

Screamliner!!!
 
2013-02-03 10:07:30 AM

madgordy: this all began when the Feds had Boeing bail out/buy McDonald Douglas, the Douglas execs were put on Boeings board and eventually became a majority.   the company moved it's HQ to the Douglas HQ in Chicago,  and started a massive outsourcing campaign.   They laid off 1/5th of the Boeing workers in favor of the outsource people.

Suddenly the McD scandles and corruption was hitting boeing.  Remember the Air Tanker Fiasco?  All Douglas execs, all corrupt.


Boeing's move to Chicago wasn't about the lower tax rates in Illinois, it was the fact that after 30 years of tax deferrals and waivers in Washington State, the time came to pay the piper and make up for those deferred taxes, and Boeing flat out refused to pay the taxes that they had already agreed to pay. Washington State has a law in its Constitution forbidding direct subsidy of business, Illinois has no such law. Boeing demands that the State pays most of the costs of its business, demanding the State conform to their demands for tax structure to support their employment requirements, then outsources the work anyway.

Building airplanes is just an ancillary business. Their major business is generating cash flow to support their executives bonus and salary structures. They'll pay 35 cents dividend per share, while the board members take home $20 million per year in bonuses.
 
2013-02-03 10:10:27 AM

haywatchthis: that iphone is perty good huh, the made in the usa smart phones not so much


If your iPhone freezes up, it doesn't kill three hundred people though.
 
2013-02-03 10:13:06 AM

Dogsbody: Fast
Cheap
Good
Choose two.


I am stealing that, thanks.
 
2013-02-03 10:15:22 AM
NPR had a segment on this.  Instead of giving blueprints to the supplier like before, this time they gave them requirements and had the supplier create the blueprints, then the parts from their own blueprints.  Oops.

/former Boeing employee
/former MDC employee too
/madgordy, Bhags: citation?
 
2013-02-03 10:15:28 AM
FTFA: The senior Boeing engineer with indirect knowledge of the battery and electrical system troubles believes that's what happened.  "Internally, we may not have the engineering horsepower required to understand the depths of the (battery system) problem as quickly as we prefer," he said. "We let too much capability slip away from us."

FTFA:  . . .  management recognized the shortfall in supplier oversight a couple of years ago and has staffed up its supplier management organization since then.

Not enough in-house engineering expertise to even write detailed specs correctly?  Yeah, Boeing really learned a lesson from this.  Adding more management to oversee the outsourced suppliers is definitely the right answer.
 
2013-02-03 10:20:06 AM

homelessdude: beefoe: Everyone outsources everything.  Most companies (Apple and perhaps every other computer company) don't ever even touch any phase of their production.  It's efficient, cost effective and lets companies take advantage of best-in-class technology and fabrication.  It's just how things are done now, not some evil conspiracy.

I agree with the thought of outsourcing as a viable business and manufacturing method. It makes sense and while it hurts domestically, it is the way the world works. For my part, I deal every single day with the barrage of low cost providers in my field from outside of my country. It drives me crazy but it also drives me to improve my skillset to stay ahead of the pack. It is the only way to stay viable in my field.

The problem though with outsourcing is that all too often, the decision to outsource is not to take advantage of "best-in-class technology and fabrication". Instead, it is due to people channeling the work flow where the bottom line is paramount and not the product. Yes, companies need to make their money and all that and profit is good and necessary for corporate survival. But when a completely inferior product is created (and in this case, maybe a truly fatal flaw), then the methods of production and the reasons for choosing those techniques must be questioned. I am no aerospace engineer by any stretch or a production guru, but after so many mis-steps in the 787's short life, it is difficult not to be at least a little skeptical.

Something is rotten in Denmark....or Seattle as it were.


I am in Aerospace (not Boeing), and I can assure you the outsourcing is scary as hell.  They ship stuff out all over the place and the fight to get the components and systems qualified to our satisfaction is mind boggling.  We have to CONSTANTLY fight Program Management and push back against components that failed tests, don't meet our specifications, etc.  The suppliers are always giving us the "But we feel it's good enough and meets the spirit of the specification", while we scream that it FAILED and they need to fix the design.  Then Program management comes down on us with the schedule pressure because the calendar they have shows everything being done early, because that's how if should be in the land of unicorns.
Many of us Engineers have pictures of the Space Shuttle Challenger on our desks with the quote "At least they made the schedule".  (A few of the more dickhead Program Managers have seen that and damn near blew their stacks.  The good ones have seen that and said "Lets do whatever we have to in order to ensure that doesn't happen to us, but they are outnumbered by a massive margin.)
I used to like to fly.  I no longer do.
 
2013-02-03 10:23:02 AM
This story can't be true. The specs were met. They were enforcing the schedule. The boxes were checked. The risks were all green. Therefore failure is not possible.

FTA: "As to our quality flow down through our supply chain, we have very robust processes,"

Maybe aerospace companies should focus on robust engineering instead of robust processes. "Systems engineering" doesn't work so well when many of your (systems) engineers have little technical experience-- especially design/test/integration experience. Too often they are focused on the process instead of the product.
 
2013-02-03 10:23:40 AM

WhyteRaven74: Lee Jackson Beauregard: Boeing tried to get quality work for schitt pay, and you wingnuts are shocked -- SHOCKED! -- that it didn't work out for them.

It's not just that, Boeing has a long history of discouraging engineers from getting their PE certifications. An aerospace or aeronautical engineer with a PE can command a much higher salary than one without it. However an engineer without it can't sign off on their own work. And if you have something with as many parts and assemblies as an airliner and not enough engineers with PE's you get a nice back log of work. Of course it's not like the engineers at Boeing get to really do much, the heads of the various divisions aren't engineers and force the top engineers into meeting after meeting, on top of all the meetings without engineers there. And the meetings are the sort of things the engineers hate. Like meetings to discuss change requests, changes the design system can handle in real time without a problem. Basically management is acting like everyone is at a drafting table with a slide rule, while the engineers are cursing at their work stations they have to fill out change requests and get them approved, which can take a week.


No sh*t...
 
2013-02-03 10:41:27 AM

homelessdude: let us not forget that a good portion of the country almost elected another person with a long history of outsourcing and he would have been president

Instead, we got the guy who is fighting to give Corporations even more powers and outsource jobs to newer cheaper locales.

A critical document from President Barack Obama's free trade negotiations with eight Pacific nations was leaked online early Wednesday morning, revealing that the administration intends to bestow radical new political powers upon multinational corporations

dl.dropbox.com

/Corporations aren't just people
//They're the most important people of all
 
2013-02-03 10:41:51 AM

Farkage: homelessdude: beefoe: Everyone outsources everything.  Most companies (Apple and perhaps every other computer company) don't ever even touch any phase of their production.  It's efficient, cost effective and lets companies take advantage of best-in-class technology and fabrication.  It's just how things are done now, not some evil conspiracy.

I agree with the thought of outsourcing as a viable business and manufacturing method. It makes sense and while it hurts domestically, it is the way the world works. For my part, I deal every single day with the barrage of low cost providers in my field from outside of my country. It drives me crazy but it also drives me to improve my skillset to stay ahead of the pack. It is the only way to stay viable in my field.

The problem though with outsourcing is that all too often, the decision to outsource is not to take advantage of "best-in-class technology and fabrication". Instead, it is due to people channeling the work flow where the bottom line is paramount and not the product. Yes, companies need to make their money and all that and profit is good and necessary for corporate survival. But when a completely inferior product is created (and in this case, maybe a truly fatal flaw), then the methods of production and the reasons for choosing those techniques must be questioned. I am no aerospace engineer by any stretch or a production guru, but after so many mis-steps in the 787's short life, it is difficult not to be at least a little skeptical.

Something is rotten in Denmark....or Seattle as it were.

I am in Aerospace (not Boeing), and I can assure you the outsourcing is scary as hell.  They ship stuff out all over the place and the fight to get the components and systems qualified to our satisfaction is mind boggling.  We have to CONSTANTLY fight Program Management and push back against components that failed tests, don't meet our specifications, etc.  The suppliers are always giving us the "But we feel it's good enough and ...


Seattle Boeing has known this was a screwed up idea for years. But when you play engineers off against each other, open separate companies in South Carolina just so you can show Wall Street how you whipped the unions .. then engineers turn into commodies and are interchangeable.

Which is exactly what you don't want when building and designing a plane. You want dedicated long term top of the industry pros who are invested in their work coming out right.

Old Boeing was an Engineering-first company. Mullaly would have made a fine senior exec for Boeing. Instead he was forced out by the Stonecipher McDonnell politicians. And now runs Ford, doing pretty well last I heard.

I still trust the old Boeing work, the 737's and such.

The product of when the company was still run by engineers and located its HQ right where the work was going on, no skirting the issue for the execs, they were our neighbors.

Now, that stupid rented tower in Chicago might as well be in europe for all they care about what happens to the plane's quality. They've insulated themselves. Engineering trouble is just seen as another cost of doing business.

The same crappy planes McDonnel built, like the DC10 and then renamed MD Deathbombs... Thats the future of Boeing. All the senior execs from McDonnell's fault when people start dying.
 
2013-02-03 10:42:47 AM

Satan's Dumptruck Driver: This story can't be true. The specs were met. They were enforcing the schedule. The boxes were checked. The risks were all green. Therefore failure is not possible.

FTA: "As to our quality flow down through our supply chain, we have very robust processes,"

Maybe aerospace companies should focus on robust engineering instead of robust processes. "Systems engineering" doesn't work so well when many of your (systems) engineers have little technical experience-- especially design/test/integration experience. Too often they are focused on the process instead of the product.



Several times I've seen parts come in, aluminium castings/forgings or polycarbonate, where hole locations are toleranced geometrically at .0039 of an inch (thats .1mm) on the prints. Machine the part, inspect it on the machine and it is in tolerance. Take it off the jig, deburr it, clean it and send it to inspection, and its out by .001". Reject!

So you call the engineers up at the Kite Factory, and try to get information on what they would suggest as to a good method to achieve that tolerance. The 25 year old schnook on the phone who is fresh out of New Delhi University School of Engineering tells you to filter and chill the coolant.

Headdesk.

So you do that. You spend the $1500 to buy a rather expensive filtration system for the coolant, and then a chilling system (Boeing approved of course) and spend the next two weeks trying to figure out how to hold that goddamn tolerance, for what turns out to be a through-hole clearance on a flexible hydraulic line.
 
2013-02-03 10:50:18 AM

Deathfrogg: Satan's Dumptruck Driver: This story can't be true. The specs were met. They were enforcing the schedule. The boxes were checked. The risks were all green. Therefore failure is not possible.

FTA: "As to our quality flow down through our supply chain, we have very robust processes,"

Maybe aerospace companies should focus on robust engineering instead of robust processes. "Systems engineering" doesn't work so well when many of your (systems) engineers have little technical experience-- especially design/test/integration experience. Too often they are focused on the process instead of the product.


Several times I've seen parts come in, aluminium castings/forgings or polycarbonate, where hole locations are toleranced geometrically at .0039 of an inch (thats .1mm) on the prints. Machine the part, inspect it on the machine and it is in tolerance. Take it off the jig, deburr it, clean it and send it to inspection, and its out by .001". Reject!

So you call the engineers up at the Kite Factory, and try to get information on what they would suggest as to a good method to achieve that tolerance. The 25 year old schnook on the phone who is fresh out of New Delhi University School of Engineering tells you to filter and chill the coolant.

Headdesk.

So you do that. You spend the $1500 to buy a rather expensive filtration system for the coolant, and then a chilling system (Boeing approved of course) and spend the next two weeks trying to figure out how to hold that goddamn tolerance, for what turns out to be a through-hole clearance on a flexible hydraulic line.


It's rather sad how people with no clue throw down stupidly tight and unnecessary GD&T stuff just because...
 
2013-02-03 10:51:15 AM
I have yet to see a case where outsourcing anything besides payroll (no I don't work for ADP but they seem to have their act together) actually worked the way it was intended. Outsource enterprise tech ops: costs go up, service level goes down. Outsource HR: same thing.

The old saying: if you want something done right, do it yourself, still holds true. Every time you outsource something, you forfeit a potential means of competitive advantage. Unfortunately, the C level execs who hold this line are often the ones run out on a rail. I can only speculate that there are massive kickbacks at stake between the board members of outsurcers and outsourcees. Nothing else would explain why otherwise intellegent people do things that will so obviously end badly.
 
2013-02-03 10:51:35 AM

Deathfrogg: So you call the engineers up at the Kite Factory, and try to get information on what they would suggest as to a good method to achieve that tolerance. The 25 year old schnook on the phone who is fresh out of New Delhi University School of Engineering tells you to filter and chill the coolant.


Sounds like somebody needs a refresher course. It's all ball-bearings these days.
 
2013-02-03 10:52:09 AM

Farkage: The suppliers are always giving us the "But we feel it's good enough and meets the spirit of the specification",


Wow, there's a line of bullshiat I've never heard before..."meets the spirit of the specification"...
 
2013-02-03 10:57:17 AM

Day_Old_Dutchie: styckx: Outsourcing shiat to third world countries known for half assing shiat at the expense of American stupidity isn't a good idea still? Who'da thunk it?

Damned shareholders and other assorted paper shufflers, who don't give a flying fark about the long-term consequences to jobs or the public as long as the original decision to outsource and supposedly better value makes enough for them to make a killing when they unload their poisoned stock on some poor sucker.




Don't ha know? The only reason why firms exist is to proved jobs for workers?
 
2013-02-03 10:58:33 AM
But if they ground the planes, can they still sell two or three tickets for every seat?
 
2013-02-03 10:58:39 AM
Yes, but I expect to be told that this is all the union's fault. That's what dumb people do. They find a simple source of a complex problem.
 
2013-02-03 10:59:16 AM

Deathfrogg: Satan's Dumptruck Driver: This story can't be true. The specs were met. They were enforcing the schedule. The boxes were checked. The risks were all green. Therefore failure is not possible.

FTA: "As to our quality flow down through our supply chain, we have very robust processes,"

Maybe aerospace companies should focus on robust engineering instead of robust processes. "Systems engineering" doesn't work so well when many of your (systems) engineers have little technical experience-- especially design/test/integration experience. Too often they are focused on the process instead of the product.


Several times I've seen parts come in, aluminium castings/forgings or polycarbonate, where hole locations are toleranced geometrically at .0039 of an inch (thats .1mm) on the prints. Machine the part, inspect it on the machine and it is in tolerance. Take it off the jig, deburr it, clean it and send it to inspection, and its out by .001". Reject!

So you call the engineers up at the Kite Factory, and try to get information on what they would suggest as to a good method to achieve that tolerance. The 25 year old schnook on the phone who is fresh out of New Delhi University School of Engineering tells you to filter and chill the coolant.

Headdesk.

So you do that. You spend the $1500 to buy a rather expensive filtration system for the coolant, and then a chilling system (Boeing approved of course) and spend the next two weeks trying to figure out how to hold that goddamn tolerance, for what turns out to be a through-hole clearance on a flexible hydraulic line.


just waller it out, make the goddam thing fit, we do't pay you to think we pay you to work
 
2013-02-03 10:59:51 AM

Ishidan: Farkage: The suppliers are always giving us the "But we feel it's good enough and meets the spirit of the specification",

Wow, there's a line of bullshiat I've never heard before..."meets the spirit of the specification"...


My freaking head exploded!  I mean holy shiat!  They were COMPLETELY serious and I had to tell them the only way I would let that part fly was if they put their wives and kids on the aircraft and we would sit in lawn chairs on the tarmac and watch. (I was dead farking serious and so pissed I was almost shaking - it was a primary flight control component too).  Even with that they tried to push the issue.  Scary sh*t...
 
2013-02-03 11:00:16 AM
Is this the same company that was trying to move out of Washington to a right to work state to break the unions?  Wonder how that cost savings will help with this?
 
2013-02-03 11:03:38 AM
arcas:Similarly, no serious auto company is going to allow a third party outsourcer to design their brake system or transmission.

Well, you know how it is...up until now it was airframe by Boeing, ENGINES by Pratt and Whitney, TIRES by Michelin, so on and so forth.  They just tried to outsource more key components until it screwed up.
 
2013-02-03 11:05:50 AM
I told you so:
* fuselage parts outsourced to an Italian supplier who didn't even have a CAD system, let alone the ability to use Boeing's CATIA.  That meant when components showed up they didn't align with other fuselage pieces
* the shortest flight test schedule (by several months) ever for a Boeing plane, despite using a new design
* completelly new manufacturing techniques for composites
* tight top-down control of schedule and feedback -- meaning that senior management was bullshiatted by the program managers
 
2013-02-03 11:06:20 AM
WOW, Subby!  You are so smart!  I didn't know BOEING made BATTERIES!!  Holy crap...maybe I should run down to the Radio Shack or Target and buy Boeing batteries for my garage door opener.

Because we all know, when you buy a car, that car manufacturer made EVERY SINGLE PART IN THE CAR IN THEIR FACTORY.  They don't outsource the radio, the glass, the tires, the wheels, the seats, the door panels, the lights, the light bulbs, hoses, cooling systems, electronic controls, brakes, assemblies, the floormats, the radiator, etc.  Nope.  All of it is made in-house.

Just like Boeing.  The make every part in house in Seattle or Wichita or South Carolina.  Hell, the even assemble stuff in their shiny downtown Chicago tower!  They never outsource the manufacture of stuff like ENGINES, BATTERIES, landing gear, avionics, tires, hoses, sub-assemblies, lubricants, etc.

/Subby really showed his ass today
//Stupid
 
2013-02-03 11:07:33 AM

homelessdude: beefoe: Everyone outsources everything.  Most companies (Apple and perhaps every other computer company) don't ever even touch any phase of their production.  It's efficient, cost effective and lets companies take advantage of best-in-class technology and fabrication.  It's just how things are done now, not some evil conspiracy.

I agree with the thought of outsourcing as a viable business and manufacturing method. It makes sense and while it hurts domestically, it is the way the world works. For my part, I deal every single day with the barrage of low cost providers in my field from outside of my country. It drives me crazy but it also drives me to improve my skillset to stay ahead of the pack. It is the only way to stay viable in my field.

The problem though with outsourcing is that all too often, the decision to outsource is not to take advantage of "best-in-class technology and fabrication". Instead, it is due to people channeling the work flow where the bottom line is paramount and not the product. Yes, companies need to make their money and all that and profit is good and necessary for corporate survival. But when a completely inferior product is created (and in this case, maybe a truly fatal flaw), then the methods of production and the reasons for choosing those techniques must be questioned. I am no aerospace engineer by any stretch or a production guru, but after so many mis-steps in the 787's short life, it is difficult not to be at least a little skeptical.

Something is rotten in Denmark....or Seattle as it were.


Honestly, is this who fiasco much different than Boeing hiring a bunch of homeless dudes (no offense) and putting them on the production line. Blaming the failures on, "Well the Union labor was too expensive".
 
2013-02-03 11:09:10 AM
Which executive(s) thought this was a good idea, and have they been shown the door yet? Someone needs to fall on their sword for this one.
 
2013-02-03 11:14:20 AM

Day_Old_Dutchie: styckx: Outsourcing shiat to third world countries known for half assing shiat at the expense of American stupidity isn't a good idea still? Who'da thunk it?

Damned shareholders, customers,and other assorted paper shufflers, who don't give a flying fark about the long-term consequences to jobs or the public as long as the original decision to outsource and supposedly better value makes enough for them to make a killing when they unload their poisoned stock on some poor sucker.


FTFY
 
2013-02-03 11:18:13 AM

Deathfrogg: madgordy: this all began when the Feds had Boeing bail out/buy McDonald Douglas, the Douglas execs were put on Boeings board and eventually became a majority.   the company moved it's HQ to the Douglas HQ in Chicago,  and started a massive outsourcing campaign.   They laid off 1/5th of the Boeing workers in favor of the outsource people.

Suddenly the McD scandles and corruption was hitting boeing.  Remember the Air Tanker Fiasco?  All Douglas execs, all corrupt.

Boeing's move to Chicago wasn't about the lower tax rates in Illinois, it was the fact that after 30 years of tax deferrals and waivers in Washington State, the time came to pay the piper and make up for those deferred taxes, and Boeing flat out refused to pay the taxes that they had already agreed to pay. Washington State has a law in its Constitution forbidding direct subsidy of business, Illinois has no such law. Boeing demands that the State pays most of the costs of its business, demanding the State conform to their demands for tax structure to support their employment requirements, then outsources the work anyway.

Building airplanes is just an ancillary business. Their major business is generating cash flow to support their executives bonus and salary structures. They'll pay 35 cents dividend per share, while the board members take home $20 million per year in bonuses.




It takes all day to fly from Seattle to Washington DC. If you are bidding on military contracts you need to be closer. Priorities, it's all about priorities. Commercial is secondary business at Boeing now.
 
2013-02-03 11:23:11 AM

Dogsbody: Fast
Cheap
Good
Choose two.


Seeing how it took 10 years to develop and the fleet has been grounded, it sounds like Boeing only chose one.
 
2013-02-03 11:23:57 AM
I've seen similar results in larger software development projects where a substantial portion of the work was outsourced overseas. Nevermind the communication issues that come up in what should be a simple conference call.
 
2013-02-03 11:26:05 AM

I_Can't_Believe_it's_not_Boutros:
Sounds like somebody needs a refresher course. It's all ball-bearings these days.


Actually, you'd be amazed at the number and variety of bushings they use. We'd get sacks of pre-fab 17-4 bushings coated in alodine, 1000 or more at a time, that we'd have to bore out and hold .0005 on the size. Not difficult really, small lathe will hold that all day with only a few insert changes. But they'll only pay 30 cents each. Can get three a minute if you're sharp. So, 90 cents a minute. Times 60, thats $54 an hour.

The shop needs $75 an hour minimum to break even.

The inserts are $15-$20 each, three corners on each one. You wanna pay some schnook $15 an hour who is intelligent enough to run the machine and not have his hand held and his nose blown every time he pushes the Start button. For a run of 2000, one can reasonably expect to turn the insert every half hour or so, thats five minutes each time to turn the insert and touch it off on the toolsetter to reset the zero on the corner and dork around backing the offset out and walking it back in so you don't scrap the part. That puts a new insert in the bar every hour and a half if everything goes perfectly. Break an insert, and thats probably 15 minutes of farking around because it bent the damn hold down screw, which is about $10 each for each one of those. Wrap a chip and that shatters the bar, which will run anywhere from $70-$200 to replace that.

Now, do that on a 20,000 part run and ship them out a week after getting the sacks of bushings in the door.

Thats how Boeing does business.
 
2013-02-03 11:28:19 AM

Mi-5: WOW, Subby!  You are so smart!  I didn't know BOEING made BATTERIES!!  Holy crap...maybe I should run down to the Radio Shack or Target and buy Boeing batteries for my garage door opener.

Because we all know, when you buy a car, that car manufacturer made EVERY SINGLE PART IN THE CAR IN THEIR FACTORY.  They don't outsource the radio, the glass, the tires, the wheels, the seats, the door panels, the lights, the light bulbs, hoses, cooling systems, electronic controls, brakes, assemblies, the floormats, the radiator, etc.  Nope.  All of it is made in-house.

Just like Boeing.  The make every part in house in Seattle or Wichita or South Carolina.  Hell, the even assemble stuff in their shiny downtown Chicago tower!  They never outsource the manufacture of stuff like ENGINES, BATTERIES, landing gear, avionics, tires, hoses, sub-assemblies, lubricants, etc.

/Subby really showed his ass today
//Stupid


You know that the the entire 787 fleet is grounded until further notice, yes?
 
2013-02-03 11:29:18 AM

MindStalker: Honestly, is this who fiasco much different than Boeing hiring a bunch of homeless dudes (no offense) and putting them on the production line. Blaming the failures on, "Well the Union labor was too expensive".


heh heh ....no offence taken....I get your point.
 
2013-02-03 11:31:11 AM
Wait what!?!?!

"On the 787, he said, Boeing management thought it could outsource risk and responsibility along with most of the work."

Wow, Boeing management in this case are either stupid or lazy...or both. The prime never cede's risk, it's always the prime's fault.
 
2013-02-03 11:33:47 AM

priapic_abandon: I've seen similar results in larger software development projects where a substantial portion of the work was outsourced overseas. Nevermind the communication issues that come up in what should be a simple conference call.


With people who don't all speak the same language natively.

Hell, I was just helping out at a local block party last night as traffic control...in Chinatown.  I can't tell you how many times somebody approached my barricade and yelled "I TURN HEA YAH?  I TURN!"  "No, sir, this road is closed."  "I TURN HEAH!"
 
2013-02-03 11:35:09 AM

HempHead:  
It takes all day to fly from Seattle to Washington DC. If you are bidding on military contracts you need to be closer. Priorities, it's all about priorities. Commercial is secondary business at Boeing now.


When Boeing is negotiating a contract with the Pentagon, the government employee is on the other end of the phone with a rubber stamp. The only "flying" involved is the directors on the company jets heading out to their condos in the Bahamas.
 
2013-02-03 11:36:42 AM

DaWormyPimpsta: [fail.brm.sk image 384x439]


Dig deeper, Watson!
 
2013-02-03 11:38:05 AM
Ouch! Something just bit me!
I'd bite it back if I could catch it.


/wo hoo, rack me up a cool dozen!!!
 
2013-02-03 11:40:11 AM
If you want ti done right, you have to do it yourself ....

stevengoddard.files.wordpress.com
 
2013-02-03 11:47:13 AM

johnnyrocket: Wait what!?!?!

"On the 787, he said, Boeing management thought it could outsource risk and responsibility along with most of the work."

Wow, Boeing management in this case are either stupid or lazy...or both. The prime never cedes risk, it's always the prime's fault.


Not up on the latest management paradigm, I see.  Management never cedes REWARD.  Privatize reward, socialize risk.
 
2013-02-03 11:52:29 AM

Clemkadidlefark: If you want ti done right, you have to do it yourself ....

[stevengoddard.files.wordpress.com image 655x338]


Snerk.  BIRFER!

You want ti done right?
www.hawaiiashscatterings.com

/just figured out the new Fark controls
//I'll get used to it
 
2013-02-03 11:59:55 AM

Mad Scientist: If it's Boeing, I'm not going.


because AirBus is such a byword for quality

/flying commercial is for chumps anyway
 
2013-02-03 12:13:48 PM
meanwhile... upper management gives themselves a raise
...again
 
2013-02-03 12:14:26 PM
Voiceofreason01:

/flying commercial is for chumps anyway

^ This.
 
2013-02-03 12:16:30 PM

WhyteRaven74: beefoe: It's efficient, cost effective and lets companies take advantage of best-in-class technology and fabrication.

Except, it's not, not necessarily and not very often.


Great logical argument.  My response:

Yes it is, neener, neener, and you're a poopyhead!

madgordy: , the Douglas execs were put on Boeings board and eventually became a majority

And yet it was Boeing that laid off a fark ton of MD engineers, particularly the most senior ones.
 
2013-02-03 12:19:04 PM

Clemkadidlefark: If you want ti done right, you have to do it yourself ....

[stevengoddard.files.wordpress.com image 655x338]


Wow ... birthers still exist??

Didn't you get the memo? He's already been re-elected and cannot run again. This line of propaganda no longer has any use. It no longer matters how many idiots can be convinced that Obama is not natural born ... there will not be another vote on the matter.
 
2013-02-03 12:21:25 PM
If only there was a competitor from which Boeing's customers could purchase planes to punish them.
 
2013-02-03 12:23:32 PM

LarryDan43: A lot of grocery baggers with engineering degrees in the Everett WA are feeling pretty smug right now.


THREADOVER
 
2013-02-03 12:27:42 PM
Any time one of your senior engineers uses the term "diddly-squat" in a statement to the media, things probably aren't going as well as they should be.
 
2013-02-03 12:30:25 PM
Once a company gets big enough to pull in the kind of money that attracts C-level MBAs like sharks to fresh chum, it's time to cash out and go start another firm.
 
2013-02-03 12:31:35 PM
so u can say "told you so" TOLD U SO

-depeche mode
 
2013-02-03 12:32:57 PM
No wonder this circuit failed. It says "Made in Japan".
cdn.hark.com
 
2013-02-03 12:35:23 PM

LarryDan43: A lot of grocery baggers with engineering degrees in the Everett WA are feeling pretty smug right now.


What about those same engineers in Everett that actually DID work on the 787, and who now think about going on strike for moar money?

I'd say they probably feel like shiat...but in this situation i'd just laugh at how farking sad it is.  My plane's broke!  I need a raise!
 
2013-02-03 12:38:59 PM
Typical case of trying to be too slick for their own good. Squeezing every last dime out of " right sourcing" from suppliers. Probably looked good on the powerpoint charts.
 
2013-02-03 12:39:24 PM

Fade2black: LarryDan43: A lot of grocery baggers with engineering degrees in the Everett WA are feeling pretty smug right now.

What about those same engineers in Everett that actually DID work on the 787, and who now think about going on strike for moar money?

I'd say they probably feel like shiat...but in this situation i'd just laugh at how farking sad it is.  My plane's broke!  I need a raise!


Those engineers who actually did work on the aircraft were overruled in their design considerations by the MBAs with law degrees.
 
2013-02-03 12:40:29 PM

Deathfrogg: I_Can't_Believe_it's_not_Boutros:
Sounds like somebody needs a refresher course. It's all ball-bearings these days.

Actually, you'd be amazed at the number and variety of bushings they use. We'd get
...
<snip>
Thats how Boeing does business.


I don't know the policies of the company you work for, but you need to use caution when posting information that might run afoul of your company's "Company Most Secret" information.  It's likely that any numbers with dollar signs are included in that definition.

Of course, like some traffic laws, a company's rule book could create situations in which 100% of all employees must violate some sort of rule in order to perform their jobs, making it easy to justify summary dismissal.  Hypothetically, of course.
 
2013-02-03 12:45:08 PM

Deathfrogg: HempHead:
It takes all day to fly from Seattle to Washington DC. If you are bidding on military contracts you need to be closer. Priorities, it's all about priorities. Commercial is secondary business at Boeing now.

When Boeing is negotiating a contract with the Pentagon, the government employee is on the other end of the phone with a rubber stamp. The only "flying" involved is the directors on the company jets heading out to their condos in the Bahamas.




You have obviously never worked on a government contract. There is quite a bit of schmoozing involved (drinks, dinner, promises of a jobs,etc) and those company jets are generally taking Senators and Congressman on 'fact finding missions' to the Caribbean.


Ex-Boeing CFO pleads guilty in tanker deal scandal

By Alan Bjerga
Knight Ridder

WASHINGTON - Boeing's former chief financial officer pleaded guilty yesterday to illegally hiring an Air Force official who helped negotiate a $23.5 billion deal for Boeing to supply 100 tanker aircrafts to the Air Force.
Link
 
2013-02-03 12:50:58 PM

Dogsbody: Fast
Cheap
Good
Choose two.


The only time you can get all three is when looking for a cheap piece of trailer trash tail
 
2013-02-03 12:52:53 PM

fatbear: styckx: Outsourcing shiat to third world countries known for half assing shiat at the expense of American stupidity isn't a good idea still? Who'da thunk it?

FTFA:

"Since the battery and its monitoring system were made in Japan, and all the connected pieces were integrated by French company Thales "

Third world?

PS - If Americans are stupid, why would you want *them* to build it?


See this is what made me wet my pants - Thales. One of the TV transmitters I maintain is a Thales transmitter. I love it - fabulous transmitter (for me). See, I get paid by the hour, and Thales makes absolute crap electronic equipment. I am *constantly* out at that site, trying to convince that RPN, contrary bastard to keep running and make square pixels.

\hopes Boeing gets it's shyt together
\\major employer here in Wichita
 
2013-02-03 12:55:16 PM

mofa: Deathfrogg: I_Can't_Believe_it's_not_Boutros:
Sounds like somebody needs a refresher course. It's all ball-bearings these days.

Actually, you'd be amazed at the number and variety of bushings they use. We'd get
...
<snip>
Thats how Boeing does business.

I don't know the policies of the company you work for, but you need to use caution when posting information that might run afoul of your company's "Company Most Secret" information.  It's likely that any numbers with dollar signs are included in that definition.

Of course, like some traffic laws, a company's rule book could create situations in which 100% of all employees must violate some sort of rule in order to perform their jobs, making it easy to justify summary dismissal.  Hypothetically, of course.


I could give a fark.

A: I'm out of that business and currently in University. 25 years carving chunks of metal and shiat into something pretty and useful with ONE single week vacation and six layoffs in that whole time is enough. I went from making $10 an hour in 1984 to $18 in 2007.
B: That company, after being jerked around on 90 day net and having its entire production capacity monopolized for three years by the farktards in Everett, is now out of business because the boss decided that he should get paid first even if he couldn't make payroll or accounts payable on a four man shop while our receivables were consistently two months late.

So, It isn't my problem anymore.
 
2013-02-03 12:58:34 PM

Mi-5: WOW, Subby!  You are so smart!  I didn't know BOEING made BATTERIES!!  Holy crap...maybe I should run down to the Radio Shack or Target and buy Boeing batteries for my garage door opener.

Because we all know, when you buy a car, that car manufacturer made EVERY SINGLE PART IN THE CAR IN THEIR FACTORY.  They don't outsource the radio, the glass, the tires, the wheels, the seats, the door panels, the lights, the light bulbs, hoses, cooling systems, electronic controls, brakes, assemblies, the floormats, the radiator, etc.  Nope.  All of it is made in-house.

Just like Boeing.  The make every part in house in Seattle or Wichita or South Carolina.  Hell, the even assemble stuff in their shiny downtown Chicago tower!  They never outsource the manufacture of stuff like ENGINES, BATTERIES, landing gear, avionics, tires, hoses, sub-assemblies, lubricants, etc.

/Subby really showed his ass today
//Stupid


Dunno, I can't see subby's ass for yours, waving in the breeze like that.

I suggest decaf, and a good book. Or a boot to the head.
 
2013-02-03 01:00:17 PM

Mi-5: WOW, Subby!  You are so smart!  I didn't know BOEING made BATTERIES!!  Holy crap...maybe I should run down to the Radio Shack or Target and buy Boeing batteries for my garage door opener.

Because we all know, when you buy a car, that car manufacturer made EVERY SINGLE PART IN THE CAR IN THEIR FACTORY.  They don't outsource the radio, the glass, the tires, the wheels, the seats, the door panels, the lights, the light bulbs, hoses, cooling systems, electronic controls, brakes, assemblies, the floormats, the radiator, etc.  Nope.  All of it is made in-house.

Just like Boeing.  The make every part in house in Seattle or Wichita or South Carolina.  Hell, the even assemble stuff in their shiny downtown Chicago tower!  They never outsource the manufacture of stuff like ENGINES, BATTERIES, landing gear, avionics, tires, hoses, sub-assemblies, lubricants, etc.

/Subby really showed his ass today
//Stupid


Didn't RTFA, has no idea what he's talking about.

The issue is (if you read TFA) that the electrical systems were outsourced, and the issue is now that the electrical systems might have to be redesigned due to poor quality.

Oh, and the consumer electronics currently are on the same circuit as the airplane's.
 
2013-02-03 01:06:12 PM
eventhelosers:
Widen your horizons, that's low level logic. Everyone knows fat men in Kentucky build some of the fastest cars in the world.  Stupid people are needed to build airplanes (parts) that (boeing) engineers design, because you teach them how to do one and only one f@ck!n& thing right.  Don't let them touch anything else.

If by "fastest cars in the world" you mean "restricted cars that only turn left," then your limited-horizon view is right.

If you mean "fastest cars that turn both left and right" then you might be interested in knowing that America last owned that record in...well, never.

If you mean "fastest production cars" then you must know that America last built the world's fastest production car in ...well, never.

If you mean "fastest car in the world" then you must also know that America hasn't had that record in almost 30 years.
 
2013-02-03 01:14:17 PM

Dogsbody: Fast
Cheap
Good
Choose two.


I love telling management that when they come to us wanting something ridiculous.  "Can you take this product that we've already been refining for 10 years, cut 25% parts cost, 50% assembly time, enable automated testing for every sub-assembly as well as the finished product, eliminate all custom parts from the BoM, cut the failure rate by 60%, and make it so that an 8 y/o autistic girl that has never spent a day in school can troubleshoot and fix it within an hour no matter what the failure mode was????  ..... and we need you to do it by yourself with no budget in 2 months.... and don't let your other projects slip.... Oh, almost forgot.... It has to be backward compatible, with every config, of every previous revision, all the way back to the original prototype so we can retrofit it, again using an autistic child for labor."
 
2013-02-03 01:16:48 PM

BiffSpiffy: BiffSpiffy: But Radio Shack parts mean that they just have to pop into any Mall and get replacements, right?

Only if you're looking for a new phone contract.

Yeah, but with that fancy phone you can call your family members to say goodby, but you might get voice mail which means you will have to Choose the Language press #1 for English, #2 for French, #3 for Mandarin #4 Canadian, then pick #1 Fire, #2 Loss of Power, #3 Loss of Oxy.....


I think Rush Pillbaugh has #3 on speed dial labeled "FARKING END OF THE WORLD EMERGENCY!"
 
2013-02-03 01:34:07 PM
I just bought a seven hundred and fifty dollar pair of "handmade in america" ridell roller skates
so I'm getting a kick...
 
2013-02-03 01:36:43 PM

EvilEgg: Hey it's cheap and most of the time it works.


Hello Sir, my name is James, how may I help you with your Boeing Dreamliner?

Oh, I am sorry to hear your plane is on fire and you are in a controlled glide to a water landing 400 miles from the nearest land.  Have you you tried getting out of the aircraft and getting back in, sir?  I cannot help you until you try the above described process, sir. Good day.  <click>
 
2013-02-03 01:41:30 PM
HempHead:  Ex-Boeing CFO pleads guilty in tanker deal scandal

By Alan Bjerga
Knight Ridder

WASHINGTON - Boeing's former chief financial officer pleaded guilty yesterday to illegally hiring an Air Force official who helped negotiate a $23.5 billion deal for Boeing to supply 100 tanker aircrafts to the Air Force.
Link


The story of Mike Sears and his shenanigans filled up two pages of a Management textbook (the section was regarding power-seeking and corruption) for a class I took last semester. The jackass engaged in tons of insubordinate, illegal behavior, and his higher-ups just let it continue. Glad to know he's literally being held up as a textbook example of "Corrupt Corporate Jackass Behavior Not to Be Emulated Ever."
 
2013-02-03 01:42:41 PM
And the executives that pushed the outsourcing moved to different companies long ago, after collecting their ENORMOUS "cut costs beyond expectations" bonuses...

media.screened.com
 
2013-02-03 01:47:11 PM

fatbear: eventhelosers:
Widen your horizons, that's low level logic. Everyone knows fat men in Kentucky build some of the fastest cars in the world.  Stupid people are needed to build airplanes (parts) that (boeing) engineers design, because you teach them how to do one and only one f@ck!n& thing right.  Don't let them touch anything else.

If by "fastest cars in the world" you mean "restricted cars that only turn left," then your limited-horizon view is right.

If you mean "fastest cars that turn both left and right" then you might be interested in knowing that America last owned that record in...well, never.

If you mean "fastest production cars" then you must know that America last built the world's fastest production car in ...well, never.

If you mean "fastest car in the world" then you must also know that America hasn't had that record in almost 30 years.


lol... You're trying way too hard.
You're confusing "the" with "some of the". Being included in the top group is much different than being at the head of the top group. This applies to things other that vehicles, as well.

It's the weekend. Lighten up.
 
2013-02-03 01:48:47 PM

zepillin: I just bought a seven hundred and fifty dollar pair of "handmade in america" ridell roller skates
so I'm getting a kick...


lucky fark i wish i had that kind of moolah
 
2013-02-03 01:54:00 PM

WordyGrrl: HempHead:  Ex-Boeing CFO pleads guilty in tanker deal scandal

By Alan Bjerga
Knight Ridder

WASHINGTON - Boeing's former chief financial officer pleaded guilty yesterday to illegally hiring an Air Force official who helped negotiate a $23.5 billion deal for Boeing to supply 100 tanker aircrafts to the Air Force.
Link

The story of Mike Sears and his shenanigans filled up two pages of a Management textbook (the section was regarding power-seeking and corruption) for a class I took last semester. The jackass engaged in tons of insubordinate, illegal behavior, and his higher-ups just let it continue. Glad to know he's literally being held up as a textbook example of "Corrupt Corporate Jackass Behavior Not to Be Emulated Ever."




He only got 4 months in jail.
 
2013-02-03 01:58:25 PM

Farkage: Several times I've seen parts come in, aluminium castings/forgings or polycarbonate, where hole locations are toleranced geometrically at .0039 of an inch (thats .1mm) on the prints. Machine the part, inspect it on the machine and it is in tolerance. Take it off the jig, deburr it, clean it and send it to inspection, and its out by .001". Reject!


0.0039>0.001

Don't understand the comment.
 
2013-02-03 01:59:38 PM

LarryDan43: BiffSpiffy: But Radio Shack parts mean that they just have to pop into any Mall and get replacements, right?

Only if you're looking for a new phone contract.


Next up: Radio Shack PoS system crashes due to influx of 98208 zipcodes.
 
2013-02-03 02:03:56 PM
ElLoco:
You're confusing "the" with "some of the". Being included in the top group is much different than being at the head of the top group. This applies to things other that vehicles, as well.

We haven't even been in the top group of manufacturing for 30 years*. America's quality manufacturing is gone, and anyone who outsources is just being smart.

*Except for things designed to kill people.
 
2013-02-03 02:13:30 PM

Fade2black: LarryDan43: A lot of grocery baggers with engineering degrees in the Everett WA are feeling pretty smug right now.

What about those same engineers in Everett that actually DID work on the 787, and who now think about going on strike for moar money?

I'd say they probably feel like shiat...but in this situation i'd just laugh at how farking sad it is.  My plane's broke!  I need a raise!


This is the exact time they should go on strike. All the 787 problems can be traced to management wanting to farm out manufacturing (both for price and to please foreign governments).
They should strike for more pay and to bring more expertise in house. What is Boeing's response going to be? No? The entire freakin fleet of their newest plane is grounded.
 
2013-02-03 02:23:08 PM
Once again, outsourcing saves the day!

Seriously, though, I get so damned tired of hearing managers extoll the cost savings of outsourcing, only to watch those managers disappear when it comes time to pony up for the bill resulting from outsourcers not just screwing up product, but damaging the brand itself.

No one wants to pay for quality, not when they can reap short-term profits up front & bolt when the inevitable occurs.
 
2013-02-03 02:24:33 PM

Day_Old_Dutchie: styckx: Outsourcing shiat to third world countries known for half assing shiat at the expense of American stupidity isn't a good idea still? Who'da thunk it?

Damned shareholders and other assorted paper shufflers, who don't give a flying fark about the long-term consequences to jobs or the public as long as the original decision to outsource and supposedly better value makes enough for them to make a killing when they unload their poisoned stock on some poor sucker.


This. Boomers looking to turn a quick profit ere they retire. It's getting to the point where privately-held corporations are actually using that fact as a selling point.
 
2013-02-03 02:29:04 PM

Cataholic: Boeing's in-house union engineers pointing the fingers at everyone else?  Color me shocked.  They may be correct, but I'll wait for someone with a slightly smaller axe to grind before I pass judgment on how this happened.


This.
 
2013-02-03 02:31:51 PM

ilambiquated: Farkage: Several times I've seen parts come in, aluminium castings/forgings or polycarbonate, where hole locations are toleranced geometrically at .0039 of an inch (thats .1mm) on the prints. Machine the part, inspect it on the machine and it is in tolerance. Take it off the jig, deburr it, clean it and send it to inspection, and its out by .001". Reject!

0.0039>0.001

Don't understand the comment.


That wasn't my statement...I think you got something out of a quote I was responding to from someone else...
 
2013-02-03 02:34:43 PM

jeffowl: I blame the Unions.

If they had not been so greedy, Boeing wouldn't have been forced to outsource to remain cost competitive.


So. . .

Boeing: We need you engineers to design our new airliner.

Engineering Union: Since you're a Fortune 500 multinational company that makes money hand-over-fist, and we're the highly educated technical professionals the design your core product, we want pay appropriate to our level of education and skill and the ability to live a comfortable lifestyle and support our families.

Boeing: That's outrageous!  You union thieves!  You should take minimum wage and be happy!  If we paid you that we would only have big profits, not ludicrously huge profits!  I'll outsource all this work to India and get Habib and Sanjay to design it for a quarter of what you are charging and it will be just as good!

Engineering Union: Yeah, tell me how that works for you.
 
2013-02-03 02:36:46 PM

ilambiquated: Farkage: Several times I've seen parts come in, aluminium castings/forgings or polycarbonate, where hole locations are toleranced geometrically at .0039 of an inch (thats .1mm) on the prints. Machine the part, inspect it on the machine and it is in tolerance. Take it off the jig, deburr it, clean it and send it to inspection, and its out by .001". Reject!

0.0039>0.001

Don't understand the comment.



Ah, a rube. I'll type it real slow for you.

The tolerance is .1 mm. One tenth of a millimeter. Thats .0039 of an inch. Dial in your setup, get that goddamn centerline of the hole ON the nominal, that gives you .0019 of an inch to play with. Run the first article on half rapid just so you can watch the chips and make sure your coolant hoses are all perfect, this also gives you a few minutes to light a smoke, scratch your 'nads and pour a cup of coffee.

Cycle finishes. Open the doors. Blow the jig off with the air hose, whip out your bore gauges, pins and pin mic. Checks out right where you wanted it to be. Hole size is perfect, location is dead nuts, other features right where they should be. Everything is copa-farkin-cetic. Schweet. Wrench the nuts off the clamps, and take the part out. Spray it with a little cleaner and put it on the table. Blow the jig off again and put the next part in the jug and waste a minute or so documenting the time and filling out the little card that goes with that first part. This gives you time to light another smoke and fark around deburring the part with something pointy, (I make my own deburring gizmos). Then schlep the part up to the inspectors office.

Then you wait. And wait. Pour another cup of coffee and spend a half hour or so bullshiatting with the guy on the machine next to you. Just as you light another smoke or go to the head to take a stanky dump, the inspector brings that first part back and hands it to you with a red tag attached to it. Sometime between the time you took the part off the jig, deburred it and wrote it up, and the time the fat bastard in the inspectors office got around to putting the damn thing on the Computerized Measuring Machine, that goddamn hole moved .003 of an inch. Thats out .0011 of an inch out of tolerance.

Polycarbonates are famous for this. As are rough castings and forgings, especially in aluminium. 10 degrees variance in the ambient temperature from the shop floor to the inspection room is enough to make you want to start drinking heavily.
 
2013-02-03 02:49:10 PM
This is why I dislike shareholder-based multinational capitalism. It discourages accountability and just about rewards creative falsehoods.

There's a reason we look back fondly on our old mom-and-pop, bricks-and-mortar economy. It wasn't the most efficient means of distributing goods, but human decency and integrity had a chance to thrive.
 
2013-02-03 02:53:38 PM
He said he doesn't believe the engineering union, set to vote this month to authorize a strike, will go out in the midst of the 787 crisis.

"Nobody is going to do any striking until we get this airplane fixed," he said.


I think somebody is overestimating the loyalty of a group of employees who have gotten screwed over year in and year out decade after decade. I think it's called whistling in the graveyard and knowing that payback is a biatch. Maybe the exec bonuses will be missing some zeros this year.
 
2013-02-03 03:03:10 PM
You what we manufacture in this country?

Lawsuits and excuses.
 
2013-02-03 03:10:11 PM

Generation_D: Instead he was forced out by the Stonecipher McDonnell politicians.


This. The entire pile of outsourcing crap can be piled right around that asshole's ankles (just like his tighty-whities apparently, which is why he's not still on board to see this come to roost).

In the end, Boeing will recover. The 787 is the best plane out there now. It is the next generation of plane technology that has much further to grow than the the aluminum tube design, and over the past couple years it has been Boeing engineers sent out to the incompetent supplier companies who did the fix-it lifting so they have the expertise in house to not do that screw up again. But there is still another hit yet to come when Boeing has to fess up about how many of the 787's that are 'just about to be delivered' are never going to fly in commercial service due to farkups that can't be fixed retroactively. That's gonna hurt.

I'll be buying some BA if they dip below 50 again. (And I'm still kicking myself for not buying more when they were in the 30's and my dad pointed out the relationship between contracted bonuses and the stock price on a specific date - which happened to be about when the stock price hit a major low. Hmmm.)
 
2013-02-03 04:28:47 PM
Everyone here is assuming malevolence where there really isn't any, just incompetence. The whole aerospace industry, starting right around 1999, decided it was going to be really smart and try to copy the Toyota system of building cars, except with airplanes. That included finding the lowest cost solution, which most of the time included large amounts of outsourcing from unionized shops, and for parts where you only needed 15 per year instead of the thousands for a car plant. The result is that all of the technical engineers have now become integrators of parts made by the lowest bidder and American manufacturing plants are actually assembly plants for parts made somewhere else.
 
2013-02-03 04:37:09 PM

Negligible: Everyone here is assuming malevolence where there really isn't any, just incompetence. The whole aerospace industry, starting right around 1999, decided it was going to be really smart and try to copy the Toyota system of building cars, except with airplanes. That included finding the lowest cost solution, which most of the time included large amounts of outsourcing from unionized shops, and for parts where you only needed 15 per year instead of the thousands for a car plant. The result is that all of the technical engineers have now become integrators of parts made by the lowest bidder and American manufacturing plants are actually assembly plants for parts made somewhere else.


It's not just the aerospace industry. The same practice has been going on for some time in the software industry, and in many cases, with the same outcome. For at least two companies at which I've worked, including my present company, project managers serve as those integrators, with a couple of developers added as "assemblers", ensuring the stuff developed in outsourced silos will integrate and work together. The fun part is watching this model fail on things that require both deep and wide knowledge of a software product - read "documentation, training, and support" - because folks that do piecework don't do "holistic overview."
 
2013-02-03 04:45:18 PM

LarryDan43: A lot of grocery baggers with engineering degrees in the Everett WA are feeling pretty smug right now.


If you have an engineering degree in mechanical engineering, aerospace engineering, or electrical engineering and are bagging groceries in Everett, then there is something seriously wrong with you.  Boeing is begging for engineers and even paying contractors $50-75/hour to come to Seattle.

On top of that, they are hiring at Honda, Piper, Cessna, Spirit Aerosystems, Bell Helicopter, Hawker Beechcraft, Bombardier (in Canada), Learjet, Gulfstream, Sikorsky in Connecticut and Florida, and even Airbus in Wichita is adding to their engineering team.   Plus there are tons of contract engineering firms that are hiring all over the country.

So if you're smug and self righteous and bagging groceries in Everett, WA, you just might want to ask some other folks in the industry what the hell is wrong with you, because you shouldn't be bagging groceries now.  This is a boom time for engineers in Aerospace and Defense.  Now is when you need to save up for then next down time in 2015-2016.
 
2013-02-03 04:51:38 PM
Sometime in the middle of my high school calculus class, I had that eureka! moment and thought I'd learned how to solve (or at least bound) every problem everywhere.

Then I went to college, where I learned that most high school math and science classes only really focus on problems with analytical solutions (as opposed to those in which the solutions can only be approximated to the degree of precision limited to your cleverness, patience and computing power) and that most real world problems were quite a bit more complex. I think the MBAs of the world are still in their honeymoon stage with spreadsheets and MS Project, where an hour of new hire effort is the same as that of someone with twenty years' experience, and it's perfectly reasonable to have engines invent new things and solve new problems in six minute increments.
 
2013-02-03 04:54:24 PM
Um, that should have been "engineers" instead of engines. Auto-correct probably needed to be shipped NOW.
 
2013-02-03 07:32:52 PM
LETS GO FOOT BALL LETS GO  WOO WOO!!!
 
2013-02-03 07:35:46 PM

HempHead: WordyGrrl: HempHead:  Ex-Boeing CFO pleads guilty in tanker deal scandal

By Alan Bjerga
Knight Ridder

WASHINGTON - Boeing's former chief financial officer pleaded guilty yesterday to illegally hiring an Air Force official who helped negotiate a $23.5 billion deal for Boeing to supply 100 tanker aircrafts to the Air Force.
Link

The story of Mike Sears and his shenanigans filled up two pages of a Management textbook (the section was regarding power-seeking and corruption) for a class I took last semester. The jackass engaged in tons of insubordinate, illegal behavior, and his higher-ups just let it continue. Glad to know he's literally being held up as a textbook example of "Corrupt Corporate Jackass Behavior Not to Be Emulated Ever."

He only got 4 months in jail.


Yeah, that and a $250,000 fine and 200 hours of community service. He got off way too easy, but I imagine he won't be finding another high-profile gig again soon. At least not in aerospace. I'm really surprised his higher-ups put up with him as long as they did, considering Sears' behavior could have the company being banned from military contracts for a long time.
 
2013-02-03 07:58:58 PM
BUT BUT BUT... ITS BEEN WORKING SO WELL IN THE CREATION OF ONLINE GAMES!!!

lol
 
2013-02-03 09:31:01 PM

CornerPocket: Dogsbody: Fast
Cheap
Good
Choose two.

I am stealing that, thanks.


It's basic Project Mgmt 101, except it's usually Time, Resources, and Scope.
 
2013-02-03 10:17:58 PM
Get out of the aerospace and defense arena, it's not worth the stress and strain. Been there and done that. Worked on weapons of mass destruction, never thought they would ever use them.
 
2013-02-03 10:57:54 PM

SineSwiper: CornerPocket: Dogsbody: Fast
Cheap
Good
Choose two.

I am stealing that, thanks.

It's basic Project Mgmt 101, except it's usually Time, Resources, and Scope.


I'm part of a group that claims to call itself the next young leaders.
They love people that talk about vision, dream, so on and so forth.
When they asked me to run a project (with less time, money, heads with brains in them, or purpose other than "We always do this") and I threw that trinity at them, they looked at me like I had just grown a third head.
/I stick around because they're not ALL that stupid
 
2013-02-03 11:17:55 PM

styckx: Outsourcing shiat to third world countries known for half assing shiat at the expense of American stupidity isn't a good idea still? Who'da thunk it?


I must have missed the memo. Last I checked Japan is considered very 1st world. Even more so than the Us when it comes to electronics and manufacturing standards.
 
2013-02-03 11:26:30 PM
I dealt with a major US aerospace company (not boeing) in the 90s for the Australian DOD. They subcontracted the work out to 6 other companies - 1 Australian, 1 Canadian, and 1 Israeli and 3 US but they were responsible for overall design, integration and testing of the final product. When there was a problem, we went to them and expected that they are being across all the details and have a solution in chain. Most of the time they did.

They prided themselves on being a can do company that delivered results. When ever a problem with cropped up, their Weeners was engineering based, not reaching for the contract to try to weasel out of it.

There were some big challenges of the program and fortunately we the customer took quality and capability over some schedule. They delivered late, but delivered a product that was world class.

Some companies do it right.
 
2013-02-04 12:58:04 AM
If aircraft is anything like automotibe (and I'm sure it is) the supplier is responsible for engineering issues.  However, the auto manufactures still have to approve the design of anthing.  Hope nobody dies becasue of corporate greed.
 
2013-02-04 01:18:46 AM
Deathfrogg:
...That company, after being jerked around on 90 day net and having its entire production capacity monopolized for three years by the farktards in Everett, is now out of business because the boss decided that he should get paid first even if he couldn't make payroll or accounts payable on a four man shop while our receivables were consistently two months late.

So, It isn't my problem anymore.


Rick pulled the plug and sold out to P*****s.  They were kinda miffed he never came back, and some of MY tooling got tossed.  Dave at B*****r does my stuff now, having issues getting competent help.

Hope school is good to you.
 
2013-02-04 01:36:07 AM

Cataholic: Boeing's in-house union engineers pointing the fingers at everyone else?  Color me shocked.  They may be correct, but I'll wait for someone with a slightly smaller axe to grind before I pass judgment on how this happened.


my wife worked for that company in a different aerospace division until fairly recently. it was common knowledge in the company that the project was a bust almost from the initial phases.

 it was reasonable to assume there would be teething problems, but since they essentially tried to reinvent the way an aircraft was produced, on multiple levels, on the largest and most complex craft ever devised, using many new technologies and materials and construction techniques for the first time, all at once, with no template to work from, and expecting a seamless success on a short delivery timeline, of course it was an unmitigated disaster.

 the boeing engineers may have an axe to grind, but it doesn't mean they are not correct. many of them left, the rest knew they were in an untenable situation. some of it may also be the contractors problems, but the real finger pointing can be placed at the people at the top in boeing that saddled everyone downstream of them with this clusterfark of a project.
 
2013-02-04 02:22:01 AM

beefoe: Yes, Japanese manufacturers are known for their crappy technology and inattention to detail.  And would you rather rely on Boeing's in-house lithium battery expertise?

Everyone outsources everything.  Most companies (Apple and perhaps every other computer company) don't ever even touch any phase of their production.  It's efficient, cost effective and lets companies take advantage of best-in-class technology and fabrication.  It's just how things are done now, not some evil conspiracy.


It's cheaper because slave wages, lack of worker safety and pollution controls all contribute to higher corporate profits and not into the US labor market.

If you send every job of you can overseas, there will be no middle class left to buy things or pay taxes to fund our standard of living compared to the shiatholes we outsource to.

Unless we want third world infrastructure and barbaric living conditions we need to start employing Americans to make the things we buy.
 
2013-02-04 07:23:09 AM

lohphat: beefoe: Yes, Japanese manufacturers are known for their crappy technology and inattention to detail.  And would you rather rely on Boeing's in-house lithium battery expertise?

Everyone outsources everything.  Most companies (Apple and perhaps every other computer company) don't ever even touch any phase of their production.  It's efficient, cost effective and lets companies take advantage of best-in-class technology and fabrication.  It's just how things are done now, not some evil conspiracy.

It's cheaper because slave wages, lack of worker safety and pollution controls all contribute to higher corporate profits and not into the US labor market.

If you send every job of you can overseas, there will be no middle class left to buy things or pay taxes to fund our standard of living compared to the shiatholes we outsource to.

Unless we want third world infrastructure and barbaric living conditions we need to start employing Americans to make the things we buy.


All of this.

Unfortunately, none of it is going to happen while both parties are owned by the rich and constantly push for more free trade agreements, power for corporations, and lower taxes for the obscenely wealthy.
 
2013-02-04 09:39:11 AM

EvilEgg: Hey it's cheap and most of the time it works.


When its making T-Shirts or fixing a problem networking your printer over the phone SURE.  When its "Building an airplane," things are different.
 
2013-02-04 10:33:10 AM

Farkage: Deathfrogg: Satan's Dumptruck Driver: This story can't be true. The specs were met. They were enforcing the schedule. The boxes were checked. The risks were all green. Therefore failure is not possible.

FTA: "As to our quality flow down through our supply chain, we have very robust processes,"

Maybe aerospace companies should focus on robust engineering instead of robust processes. "Systems engineering" doesn't work so well when many of your (systems) engineers have little technical experience-- especially design/test/integration experience. Too often they are focused on the process instead of the product.


Several times I've seen parts come in, aluminium castings/forgings or polycarbonate, where hole locations are toleranced geometrically at .0039 of an inch (thats .1mm) on the prints. Machine the part, inspect it on the machine and it is in tolerance. Take it off the jig, deburr it, clean it and send it to inspection, and its out by .001". Reject!

So you call the engineers up at the Kite Factory, and try to get information on what they would suggest as to a good method to achieve that tolerance. The 25 year old schnook on the phone who is fresh out of New Delhi University School of Engineering tells you to filter and chill the coolant.

Headdesk.

So you do that. You spend the $1500 to buy a rather expensive filtration system for the coolant, and then a chilling system (Boeing approved of course) and spend the next two weeks trying to figure out how to hold that goddamn tolerance, for what turns out to be a through-hole clearance on a flexible hydraulic line.

It's rather sad how people with no clue throw down stupidly tight and unnecessary GD&T stuff just because...


But the processes dictate that that a hole going  through that material must maintain that GD&T.  It is right there in the engineering standards book.... God I do not know how many times I have fought with drawing standards on this.  I control the design, I know what is going on and no it does not need to be that tight per its function.
 
2013-02-04 11:32:47 AM

Silverstaff: jeffowl: I blame the Unions.

If they had not been so greedy, Boeing wouldn't have been forced to outsource to remain cost competitive.

So. . .

Boeing: We need you engineers to design our new airliner.

Engineering Union: Since you're a Fortune 500 multinational company that makes money hand-over-fist, and we're the highly educated technical professionals the design your core product, we want pay appropriate to our level of education and skill and the ability to live a comfortable lifestyle and support our families.

Boeing: That's outrageous!  You union thieves!  You should take minimum wage and be happy!  If we paid you that we would only have big profits, not ludicrously huge profits!  I'll outsource all this work to India and get Habib and Sanjay to design it for a quarter of what you are charging and it will be just as good!

Engineering Union: Yeah, tell me how that works for you.





What's sad is people really think this way..brainwashed by unions..soon they will all be extinct, thankfully
 
2013-02-04 12:00:13 PM
Until a couple months ago, I worked a Boeing facility on government project.  I was a subcontractor, but basically, I was a staff engineer that worked for a company other than Boeing.  Government contract will often have some amount of "small business set-aside" where the prime will hire subcontractors (because we're typically a little cheaper for the same expertise) to work alongside Boeing people.

Anyway, the facility where I worked has been shedding more experienced people for a couple years.  Nearly every time an experienced engineer left, they were replaced with a college hire.  This was an effort on Boeing's part of cut their overhead and labor rates, but had the obvious effect of leaving a bunch of untrained, inexperienced people in charge of multi-million dollar efforts.

The facility I worked at wasn't in Seattle, either.  Oh, and there were a big group of Boeing people down the hallway that worked on wiring harness design for the 787.  :D
 
Displayed 168 of 168 comments

View Voting Results: Smartest and Funniest


This thread is archived, and closed to new comments.

Continue Farking
Submit a Link »






Report