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(Seattle Times)   RGIII defeats Russell Wilson, despite not being able to defeat Russell Wilson   (seattletimes.com ) divider line
    More: Stupid, Seahawks  
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1440 clicks; posted to Sports » on 03 Feb 2013 at 12:09 AM (3 years ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-02-02 11:46:49 PM  
They're both great athletes, but as I said in the redlit thread the Redskins without RG3 would probably be worse than the Seahawks without Wilson.  RG3 deserves it more.
 
2013-02-03 12:12:08 AM  
Damn it so much....I kept hoping Wilson would get it.

Regardless, I wish a speedy recovery for RG3, and hopefully he will have a long career along with the other QBs from the class of 2012....Wilson and Luck.
 
2013-02-03 12:16:06 AM  
They should have split it between RG3 and Alfred Morris because without Morris, the Redskins probably win 3 games this year
 
2013-02-03 12:17:58 AM  
I love butthurt subbies
 
2013-02-03 12:18:27 AM  
I would have given it to Andrew Luck, personally.
All three had great seasons, but RGIII had a pretty good defense around him, as did Wilson. Both Griffin and Wilson also had pretty good running games behind them as well. Luck had a team that went 2-14 last year, had almost nothing in the running game,  Reggie Wayne as his only dependable wideout, and a defense that was in the process of transitioning from 4-3 to 3-4.
 
2013-02-03 12:21:25 AM  
John Stephens won in 1988 over some bums named Michael Irvin, Tim Brown, Sterling Sharpe, and Thurman Thomas.
 
2013-02-03 12:31:28 AM  
Of course RG3 got it because it wouldn't matter if the Hawks won the Superbowl and then went on to cure cancer.  The AP would still say "Meh"..  Seattle is the Rodney Dangerfield of football.  They don't get no respect.

But the fan vote at NFL.com gave it to Wilson.
 
2013-02-03 12:33:29 AM  
Luck did more with less. He deserved it, but RGIII sells more.
 
2013-02-03 12:36:50 AM  

davidphogan: They're both great athletes, but as I said in the redlit thread the Redskins without RG3 would probably be worse than the Seahawks without Wilson.  RG3 deserves it more.


Especially when you consider that the Seahawks back up is a highly paid guy they got to be the starter.
 
2013-02-03 12:37:44 AM  

Noah_Tall: Of course RG3 got it because it wouldn't matter if the Hawks won the Superbowl and then went on to cure cancer.


You really think that if the Seahawks won the Super Bowl tomorrow, it would not have helped Russell Wilson win an award tonight?  You don't say...
 
2013-02-03 12:40:46 AM  

iron_city_ap: Luck did more with less. He deserved it, but RGIII sells more.


Pretty sure this result had something to do with the Rooney Rule.
 
2013-02-03 12:44:08 AM  

SilentStrider: I would have given it to Andrew Luck, personally.
All three had great seasons, but RGIII had a pretty good defense around him, as did Wilson. Both Griffin and Wilson also had pretty good running games behind them as well. Luck had a team that went 2-14 last year, had almost nothing in the running game,  Reggie Wayne as his only dependable wideout, and a defense that was in the process of transitioning from 4-3 to 3-4.


yes.
 
2013-02-03 12:45:27 AM  
Meh, a bigger travesty was Kuechly getting Defensive ROY over LaVonte David. Do the voters even watch the games, or just look at where they were drafted and vote based on that?
 
2013-02-03 12:57:42 AM  
The thing I like about Wilson over the other two is that no one expected anything of him.  He could have even ended up being third string before Jackson got traded.  Instead, he earned the starting position and took them to the playoffs.
 
2013-02-03 01:04:17 AM  

velvet_fog: Meh, a bigger travesty was Kuechly getting Defensive ROY over LaVonte David. Do the voters even watch the games, or just look at where they were drafted and vote based on that?


You misspelled Bobby Wagner.

Keek had a great year tho, hats off to both him and RGIII.

/more fuel to the fire...
 
2013-02-03 01:16:46 AM  

davidphogan: They're both great athletes, but as I said in the redlit thread the Redskins without RG3 would probably be worse than the Seahawks without Wilson.


This

The_Sponge:
Regardless, I wish a speedy recovery for RG3, and hopefully he will have a long career along with the other QBs from the class of 2012....Wilson and Luck.

The NFC is going to be sick for the next couple of years. Can you imagine the playoff match ups that could happen with QBs  like RG3, Wilson, Kapernick, Rodgers, Ryan, and Newton.

SilentStrider: I would have given it to Andrew Luck, personally.
All three had great seasons, but RGIII had a pretty good defense around him, as did Wilson. Both Griffin and Wilson also had pretty good running games behind them as well. Luck had a team that went 2-14 last year, had almost nothing in the running game,  Reggie Wayne as his only dependable wideout, and a defense that was in the process of transitioning from 4-3 to 3-4.


I am sorry but any offensive player that turns the ball over 23 times does not deserve to win offensive rookie of the year.
 
2013-02-03 01:22:26 AM  
I'm a diehard Colts fan, but I 100% agree with the decision to give it to RG3.  You can't deny his numbers.  He was the best rookie at the QB position, and, honestly, the best rookie numbers-wise at any position.

This isn't the MVP, which measures actual value to the team - Luck would take that one hands down.  Remember, the Redskins were able to win without RG3 even on the field - do you think the Colts would have been anything other than their hapless 2-14 selves from last year without Luck on the field?

And as far as Russell Wilson goes, he had a good season but had a much better cast around him. His numbers were not really spectacular other than touchdowns/int ratio, but I don't think awards should be handed out to teams for showing a lack of class and running up the score just to pad stats.  Those two 50-point games in a row pretty much made the difference between him having a mediocre season and looking like a top QB.  Ah well, what does it matter, if there's one thing I've learned about Seattle fans they will cry about perceived snubs for years and years - we'll be hearing about this during his retirement (probably from the Raiders) a decade from now.
 
2013-02-03 01:23:22 AM  

CipollinaFan: The_Sponge:
Regardless, I wish a speedy recovery for RG3, and hopefully he will have a long career along with the other QBs from the class of 2012....Wilson and Luck.

The NFC is going to be sick for the next couple of years. Can you imagine the playoff match ups that could happen with QBs like RG3, Wilson, Kapernick, Rodgers, Ryan, and Newton.



In the words of Bart Scott:

CAN'T WAIT!
 
2013-02-03 01:29:22 AM  

Shaggy_C: but I don't think awards should be handed out to teams for showing a lack of class and running up the score just to pad stats.


i106.photobucket.com
 
2013-02-03 01:37:31 AM  

CipollinaFan: davidphogan: They're both great athletes, but as I said in the redlit thread the Redskins without RG3 would probably be worse than the Seahawks without Wilson.

This

The_Sponge:
Regardless, I wish a speedy recovery for RG3, and hopefully he will have a long career along with the other QBs from the class of 2012....Wilson and Luck.

The NFC is going to be sick for the next couple of years. Can you imagine the playoff match ups that could happen with QBs  like RG3, Wilson, Kapernick, Rodgers, Ryan, and Newton.

SilentStrider: I would have given it to Andrew Luck, personally.
All three had great seasons, but RGIII had a pretty good defense around him, as did Wilson. Both Griffin and Wilson also had pretty good running games behind them as well. Luck had a team that went 2-14 last year, had almost nothing in the running game,  Reggie Wayne as his only dependable wideout, and a defense that was in the process of transitioning from 4-3 to 3-4.

I am sorry but any offensive player that turns the ball over 23 times does not deserve to win offensive rookie of the year.



Scoreboard.
Luck was forced to do more, with less, than either Griffen or Wilson. Despite those 23 turnovers he still led his team to 11 wins. Griffen's team (minus him against Cleveland) won 10, and Wilson's team won 11, one of which was the assistance of the replacement refs.
 
2013-02-03 01:38:33 AM  
This particular award from the Associated Press is voted on before the playoffs, so it literally wouldn't have mattered if Wilson had led the Seahawks to a Super Bowl win and the Redskins didn't even make the playoffs. It seems that Wilson got the fan vote, and honestly that has more credibility than the AP's east-coast-biased poll.
 
2013-02-03 01:41:28 AM  

CipollinaFan: davidphogan: They're both great athletes, but as I said in the redlit thread the Redskins without RG3 would probably be worse than the Seahawks without Wilson.

This

The_Sponge:
Regardless, I wish a speedy recovery for RG3, and hopefully he will have a long career along with the other QBs from the class of 2012....Wilson and Luck.

The NFC is going to be sick for the next couple of years. Can you imagine the playoff match ups that could happen with QBs  like RG3, Wilson, Kapernick, Rodgers, Ryan, and Newton.

SilentStrider: I would have given it to Andrew Luck, personally.
All three had great seasons, but RGIII had a pretty good defense around him, as did Wilson. Both Griffin and Wilson also had pretty good running games behind them as well. Luck had a team that went 2-14 last year, had almost nothing in the running game,  Reggie Wayne as his only dependable wideout, and a defense that was in the process of transitioning from 4-3 to 3-4.

I am sorry but any offensive player that turns the ball over 23 times does not deserve to win offensive rookie of the year.


Overall TO % was 3.8% for Luck and 3.3% for Wilson/Griffin. Given the vast disparity in running support, design of Arians' offense (deep, deeper, and more deep), and Luck's offensive line giving up the most pressure in the NFL, I don't think it's fair to knock him for TOs when Griffin and Wilson had their fair share.
 
2013-02-03 01:50:13 AM  
This is silly.

Just another case of East coast bias.
 
2013-02-03 01:53:42 AM  
Assorted ranks

completion %
RG3 - 65.6%(4th)
Wilson - 64.1%(8th)
Luck - 54.1%(31st)

Passing TDs

Wilson - 26(9th)
Luck - 23(14th)
RG3 - 20(19th)

Yds/A

RG3 - 8.14(1st)
Wilson - 7.93(4th)
Luck - 6.98(17th)

INT

Luck - 18(3rd)
Wilson - 10(24th)
RG3 - 5(34th)

Rating
RG3 - 102.4(4th)
Wilson - 100(5th)
Luck - 76.5(26th)


Luck threw much more, but did so less effectively. Going by passer rating he was a bottom 10 QB statistically while Wilson and RG3 were top 5. I don't think you should get that much of a "bad team" bonus when you were statistically nowhere near as good.
 
2013-02-03 01:56:43 AM  

libranoelrose: Just another case of East coast bias.


I don't really think so. While the case could be made for any of them, the Seahawks were already a bubble playoff caliber team who were made solid playoff material, the Colts were clearly just a QB short of a playoff caliber team (10-6 in 2010, 2-14 in 2011, I wonder what the only real difference there was?) so Luck had receiver support for his arm. The Redskins hadn't won the NFC East in 13 years, and hadn't had a winning season in 5 years. Plus when you see that Griffin only had, what? 5 INTs all season. Combine that with a QB rating of 102, and I don't think it was bias that got him the nod.
 
2013-02-03 01:56:49 AM  

Veserius: Assorted ranks

completion %
RG3 - 65.6%(4th)
Wilson - 64.1%(8th)
Luck - 54.1%(31st)

Passing TDs

Wilson - 26(9th)
Luck - 23(14th)
RG3 - 20(19th)

Yds/A

RG3 - 8.14(1st)
Wilson - 7.93(4th)
Luck - 6.98(17th)

INT

Luck - 18(3rd)
Wilson - 10(24th)
RG3 - 5(34th)

Rating
RG3 - 102.4(4th)
Wilson - 100(5th)
Luck - 76.5(26th)


Luck threw much more, but did so less effectively. Going by passer rating he was a bottom 10 QB statistically while Wilson and RG3 were top 5. I don't think you should get that much of a "bad team" bonus when you were statistically nowhere near as good.


I'll give you a hint, how far you throw the ball on average will have a distinct and obvious impact on your QB rating.

2nd hint: One of the people in this comparison threw the ball much farther downfield on average than the other two.
 
2013-02-03 01:58:36 AM  
And the first person to call Russell Wilson...

img685.imageshack.us

'Sup Wilson?
 
2013-02-03 02:01:08 AM  

nmrsnr: libranoelrose: Just another case of East coast bias.

I don't really think so. While the case could be made for any of them, the Seahawks were already a bubble playoff caliber team who were made solid playoff material, the Colts were clearly just a QB short of a playoff caliber team (10-6 in 2010, 2-14 in 2011, I wonder what the only real difference there was?) so Luck had receiver support for his arm. The Redskins hadn't won the NFC East in 13 years, and hadn't had a winning season in 5 years. Plus when you see that Griffin only had, what? 5 INTs all season. Combine that with a QB rating of 102, and I don't think it was bias that got him the nod.


The Colts were a bad football team. The fact that Luck more or less matched Manning is farking impressive. The Colts were not a "QB" short of a playoff caliber team. They were an elite QB away from a playoff caliber team, against the league's easiest schedule (or close to it).
 
2013-02-03 02:12:51 AM  

redmid17: against the league's easiest schedule (or close to it).


I think this is important to remember, they only beat 3 teams with a winning record all season. Next year, when they have tougher strength games, we'll see whether they keep their impressive record up. I stick with my assessment that the Colts were a competent QB away from being a good team again, I'm not sure that calling Luck Manning-caliber is warranted just yet.
 
2013-02-03 02:13:07 AM  

nmrsnr: Luck had receiver support


Who, exactly? Wedgie Rain was the only skill position left on the offense from the 2010 season.  I guess you could claim Austin Collie was still there, but the guy gets a concussion when he steps too hard while walking.  Donnie Avery was a castoff and TY Hilton was a nobody before the start of the season.  Luck made those guys, and even then they were dropping balls left and right.  This was not Peyton Manning's Colts.

Funny enough, Frenchy Garcon ended up playing with RGIII this season...
 
2013-02-03 02:16:18 AM  

nmrsnr: redmid17: against the league's easiest schedule (or close to it).

I think this is important to remember, they only beat 3 teams with a winning record all season. Next year, when they have tougher strength games, we'll see whether they keep their impressive record up. I stick with my assessment that the Colts were a competent QB away from being a good team again, I'm not sure that calling Luck Manning-caliber is warranted just yet.


Then take no offense to this, but you really have zero idea how little talent and depth the Colts had outside the QB position. Manning and Luck were the only thing propping those teams up.
 
2013-02-03 02:18:31 AM  

SilentStrider: Scoreboard.
Luck was forced to do more, with less, than either Griffen or Wilson. Despite those 23 turnovers he still led his team to 11 wins. Griffen's team (minus him against Cleveland) won 10, and Wilson's team won 11, one of which was the assistance of the replacement refs.


The Colts also played the Jags and Titans twice, as well as the Bills, Dolphins, Jets, Lions and Chiefs. The Colts had one of the easiest schedules. The Colts also had a pro bowl receiver in Reggie Wane whereas the Skins only had Garcon (who was the number 2 receiver in Indy) and he was out for half the year. I would also say that the Colts had the better defense seeing as how the Skins secondary would have struggled against a college team on a good day.

redmid17:
Overall TO % was 3.8% for Luck and 3.3% for Wilson/Griffin. Given the vast disparity in running support, design of Arians' offense (deep, deeper, and more deep), and Luck's offensive line giving up the most pressure in the NFL, I don't think it's fair to knock him for TOs when Griffin and Wilson had their fair share.


If you want to look at it that way lets look at yards per attempt.
Passing:
Luck 6.97
RG3 8.14
Wilson 7.93
Rushing:
Luck 4.11
RG3 6.79
Wilson 5.20
 
2013-02-03 02:19:48 AM  

Shaggy_C: Who, exactly?


You make a fair point, I hadn't realized they had such a large turnover since 2010.
 
2013-02-03 02:28:20 AM  

CipollinaFan: redmid17:
Overall TO % was 3.8% for Luck and 3.3% for Wilson/Griffin. Given the vast disparity in running support, design of Arians' offense (deep, deeper, and more deep), and Luck's offensive line giving up the most pressure in the NFL, I don't think it's fair to knock him for TOs when Griffin and Wilson had their fair share.


If you want to look at it that way lets look at yards per attempt.
Passing:
Luck 6.97
RG3 8.14
Wilson 7.93
Rushing:
Luck 4.11
RG3 6.79
Wilson 5.20


OR you can look just a little deeper:

"Andrew Luck's average pass is traveling 10.2 yards downfield. That's longer than any QB in the league. Yeah, he has a strong arm."

https://twitter.com/ESPNStatsInfo/status/265979997876019200

This link is kinda old but the trend stayed through the season:
And Luck's long average pass distance isn't simply a product of throwing lots of incomplete passes down the field. His average pass distance on completions is 8.6 yards past the line of scrimmage, also highest in the N.F.L. (Cutler was fourth at 8.3 entering Monday night). Griffin's completions come an average of 5.8 yards from the line of scrimmage, well below the league average of 6.5.

http://fifthdown.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/10/23/luck-vs-griffin-a-stat is tical-comparison/

Honestly this contest should have been Luck vs Wilson. Wilson and Griffin had phenomenal seasons but neither were asked to do nearly as much as Luck, so much so it's almost a bad idea to compare the three. Luck didn't have the luxury of a top 5 run game or a top 5 defense. I'm not even saying Luck should be OROY but people panning him based on a cursory glance at the stats clearly didn't watch any Colts games.

Read this for a decent summation: http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1477009-ignore-the-raw-numbers-and r ew-luck-had-a-great-rookie-season

Yeah it's BR, but the guy writes for CHFF, PFR, and NBC Sports. He's actually legitimate.
 
2013-02-03 02:29:59 AM  
I don't really care either way, but claiming X QB didn't defeat Y QB is a waste of time. There are 53 people on each roster. QBs may touch the ball quite a bit on average, but the NFL this year has already proved that a QB can put up 400 yards passing and 4 TDs and lose.
 
2013-02-03 02:35:49 AM  

redmid17: top 5 run game


You are aware that RGIII alone put up more numbers on the ground than any Colts running back, right? That "top 5 run game" was largely a result of him.  If anything it just goes to show how much more dominating he was statistically than any other rookie in the game.
 
2013-02-03 02:41:29 AM  

Shaggy_C: redmid17: top 5 run game

You are aware that RGIII alone put up more numbers on the ground than any Colts running back, right? That "top 5 run game" was largely a result of him.  If anything it just goes to show how much more dominating he was statistically than any other rookie in the game.


Err... Alfred Morris put up 1613 this year. I wouldn't discount him too much.
 
2013-02-03 02:43:43 AM  

Shaggy_C: redmid17: top 5 run game

You are aware that RGIII alone put up more numbers on the ground than any Colts running back, right? That "top 5 run game" was largely a result of him.  If anything it just goes to show how much more dominating he was statistically than any other rookie in the game.


Morris had the Colts backs beat for production by week 11. I know RG III accounted for a lot of that running himself, but that was the design of the offense. If those runs didn't go to Griffin, they'd have gone to Royster or someone else. Shanahan has always favored a run heavy offense. He's just never had anyone like RG III before.
 
2013-02-03 02:43:53 AM  

ROBBED!

www.defendclevelandshow.com

 
2013-02-03 02:45:23 AM  

CavalierEternal: ROBBED!

[www.defendclevelandshow.com image 850x659]


by Father time?
 
2013-02-03 02:56:18 AM  
Hooray rg3.
 
2013-02-03 02:56:45 AM  

redmid17: I know RG III accounted for a lot of that running himself, but that was the design of the offense.


So now we're going to take coaching style into account for the rookie of the year award? Give me a break.  You can twist and turn and hem and haw all you want but RGIII had a dominating season as a rookie that no rookie QB since Marino (though Rothels came close) has matched, and definitely no first-year QB.  If it wasn't for the fan bias here I would think that you had some ulterior motive.  Are you going to tell us about how Luck is a more "cerebral" QB next?
 
2013-02-03 02:59:05 AM  

Shaggy_C: redmid17: I know RG III accounted for a lot of that running himself, but that was the design of the offense.

So now we're going to take coaching style into account for the rookie of the year award? Give me a break.  You can twist and turn and hem and haw all you want but RGIII had a dominating season as a rookie that no rookie QB since Marino (though Rothels came close) has matched, and definitely no first-year QB.  If it wasn't for the fan bias here I would think that you had some ulterior motive.  Are you going to tell us about how Luck is a more "cerebral" QB next?


No design of the offense directly affects their "success." RG III got an A in Algebra II. Luck got a B- in AP Calc. You can debate which is more impressive -- I've already said I wasn't advocating Luck to be OROY -- but Luck and RG III were on different levels.
 
2013-02-03 03:23:36 AM  
It should have been Luck, for two reasons:

One, Wilson was held to a standard that the first part of his season hurt him because he was not "doing much." Why was RG3 not held to the same standard when he was hobbled?

Second: RG3 and Wilson had "defenses" and "players" around them. Luck didn't have shiat.

By potential, it's RG3. By best out of the blue season, it's Wilson. By the guy who had to do the most, particularly with the least, it's Luck.
 
2013-02-03 03:27:49 AM  
Anecdotal evidence is anecdotal, but I watched the majority of 11-12 Skins games this season and although Griffin was very impressive, his receivers seemed to be wide freaking open on play action.  It didn't seem like he was fitting his passes into a small window like most NFL QBs, but that is also due to the fact that he did such a good job with the fake to Morris and the respect that RG3 gets for his legs.  RG3 probably deserved the award, but I think both Wilson and Luck will have a better 2nd year and career.
 
2013-02-03 03:29:08 AM  
Oh, a third reason:

Luck was "the" Colts. Not just the offense, but the TEAM. Wilson and RG3 had a lot less to do with the offensive production, were responsible for less, and had a better D and special teams behind them.

Seattle could have made the playoffs with Flynn, and Washington has some luck and they're pulling a similar record with Cousins. What's Indy without Luck?

And, in reality, I think a healthy RG3 was the best rookie of the year, followed by Wilson. But Luck had to do IT ALL.
 
2013-02-03 03:34:14 AM  
The Colts changed their entire front office, coaching staff, defensive, offensive schemes and at least 70% of their roster. Make statistical comparisons if you must, but please understand that they are most likely useless as a comparison to past team's performances.

Andrew Luck and the entire Colt's team performed WAY above their heads this year. They're only getting better.


My vote would be for Russell Wilson. That kid is amazing.

/Fark Pete Caroll
 
2013-02-03 03:39:35 AM  
Incidentally, when I watch RG3 play, I see Michael Vick with Aaron Rodgers's arm.

My advice: STOP RUNNING.
 
2013-02-03 03:41:01 AM  
Also, regarding Russell Wilson:

I told you so. ;)

/surprised by how quickly it happened...
 
2013-02-03 03:47:07 AM  

puffy999: Also, regarding Russell Wilson:

I told you so. ;)

/surprised by how quickly it happened...


I'm neutral on the seahawks, but I really like Wilson. It's sad that in years past that kid would have been forced to play another position or go to another league.

Because he's so short.
 
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