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(Fermilab)   Something to think about as you stare at the head on your beer: Quantum foam   (fnal.gov) divider line 31
    More: Strange, quantum, intergalactic space, quantum foam, classical physics, virtual particles, modern physics, gravitational fields, top quark  
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1984 clicks; posted to Geek » on 03 Feb 2013 at 4:27 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-02-03 01:21:00 AM
imageshack.us
 
2013-02-03 03:32:46 AM
Dear Subby,

If quantum even exists, and the evidence thus far is rather firm that it does, then EVERYTHING is quantum. You, the foam, the beer, the fat chick who loses 30 lbs after you drink the beer and regains it in the morning, EV ER Y THING!

So chew on that the next time you fire up your ol El KaBong.

Love,
doglover


PS: The sum total of all energy in the universe is 0. So why do you have to recharge your iphone so much?
PPS: The answer to the previous PS is a lot less obvious when you're high as subby.
 
2013-02-03 05:02:24 AM

Lt. Cheese Weasel: [imageshack.us image 400x390]


Actually kinda funny that you used his pic for this article.  Einstein strongly resisted the whole idea of quantum mechanics when it was first being worked out.  One of his famous quotes references that, the one about God not playing dice with the universe.  Goes to show that even the most brilliant people can be pretty damn wrong.
 
2013-02-03 05:09:54 AM

Abner Doon: Lt. Cheese Weasel: [imageshack.us image 400x390]

Actually kinda funny that you used his pic for this article.  Einstein strongly resisted the whole idea of quantum mechanics when it was first being worked out.  One of his famous quotes references that, the one about God not playing dice with the universe.  Goes to show that even the most brilliant people can be pretty damn wrong.


I could be totally off here but I had the impression he didn't like it because it wasn't really integrate-able with his theories. In his defense we are still trying to integrate the two.
 
2013-02-03 05:11:01 AM
blog.picajet.com : Here,  kitty kitty

Quantum Bear
 
2013-02-03 05:18:39 AM

Uchiha_Cycliste: Abner Doon: Lt. Cheese Weasel: [imageshack.us image 400x390]

Actually kinda funny that you used his pic for this article.  Einstein strongly resisted the whole idea of quantum mechanics when it was first being worked out.  One of his famous quotes references that, the one about God not playing dice with the universe.  Goes to show that even the most brilliant people can be pretty damn wrong.

I could be totally off here but I had the impression he didn't like it because it wasn't really integrate-able with his theories. In his defense we are still trying to integrate the two.


Which would mean his life's work was incomplete and/or wrong. Most people reject that, even if it's true.

Einstein was brilliant in his field, but he wasn't the wisest person in the world, just a gifted physicist. He knew his way around an equation, but he was a mortal man with mortal failings. He had a theory and quantum seemed to go against it, so he rejected it. Now, many decades later, it's pretty hard to dismiss quantum. Much like Newtonian physics, Einstein's observations are important, but they're merely the best that could be done at the time, not a comprehensive theory of everything.
 
2013-02-03 06:15:40 AM
So I was kind of right?
 
2013-02-03 06:25:06 AM

Abner Doon: Lt. Cheese Weasel: [imageshack.us image 400x390]

Actually kinda funny that you used his pic for this article.  Einstein strongly resisted the whole idea of quantum mechanics when it was first being worked out.  One of his famous quotes references that, the one about God not playing dice with the universe.  Goes to show that even the most brilliant people can be pretty damn wrong.


Not true actually.  He was one of the founders of the theory vis-a-vis his paper on the photoelectric effect.  He was actually enthusiastic about the field when it was being worked out.

He simply disagreed with the Copenhagen interpretation and felt that it was incomplete.  It's not like he was against quantum mechanics.
 
2013-02-03 07:31:50 AM
Stupid
 
2013-02-03 08:08:40 AM
"This phenomenon is also called "zero point energy," and there have been many pseudoscience claims about being able to extract some of this energy. To the best understanding of the scientific community, it is impossible to use it. So beware of any opportunities you encounter that promise you a great return on an investment in a company that claims to exploit zero point energy.

The idea that space is a bubbling brew of ephemeral particles sounds like complete nonsense, but the idea has been confirmed. In 1948, a physicist named Hendrik Casimir realized that if you placed two metal plates near each other, separated by a very small distance, the quantum foam would cause them to move. To visualize this, remember that quantum particles are also waves. Between the plates, only waves (particles) with wavelengths smaller than the separation between the plates can exist. Outside the gap, waves (particles) of all wavelengths can exist. Thus there are more particles outside the gap than inside, and the imbalance pushes the two plates together. This effect has been observed."



If there is measurable force then couldn't somethingpiezoelectric crystals be employed to capture the energy and convert to it to anelectrical current?
 
2013-02-03 08:09:36 AM

nmemkha: If there is measurable force then couldn't something [like] piezoelectric crystals be employed to capture the energy and convert to it to an electrical current?


/ftfm
 
2013-02-03 08:36:51 AM
Quantum foam, makes me roam
To the place,I belong
Old Black Rocky, country highway
Quantum foam makes me roam
 
2013-02-03 08:42:16 AM

The All-Powerful Atheismo: Not true actually. He was one of the founders of the theory vis-a-vis his paper on the photoelectric effect. He was actually enthusiastic about the field when it was being worked out.

He simply disagreed with the Copenhagen interpretation and felt that it was incomplete. It's not like he was against quantum mechanics.


This, mostly. And in a sense Einstein was actually correct to be concerned, even though his proposed patch probably doesn't work.

In particular, he disagreed with the Copenhagen interpretation's insistence that certain quantum values did not have a value until they were actually measured (and further, that it was philosophically meaningless to speculate about unmeasured variables). He believed that the values were there all along albeit inaccessible -- what today we would call a "hidden variables" theory. The EPR Paradox thought experiment was intended to highlight the absurdity of the situation.

As it happens the jury is still out on the possibility of hidden variables, although Bell's Inequality places some very strict limits on what kinds of theory could be true. (A lot of people misunderstand the strength of Bell's Inequality. Loosely speaking, Bell's Inequality requires you to concede either locality -- accept what Einstein called "spooky action at a distance" -- or reality -- Einstein's hidden variables that were there all along. Bell himself is on record as stating that dBB pilot wave theory, which gives up locality but preserves reality, deserved more attention. However, any chance that the universe behaves like our naive intuitive ideas is completely ruled out.)

The other aspect that bugged Einstein, and which is implicit in the EPR Paradox although rarely explicitly highlighted, is the Measurement Problem. The Copenhagen interpretation gives a special status to a "measurement" as causing "instantaneous collapse" of the superposed states into one definitive result... without ever being able to state what counts as a "measurement" (nor, for that matter, to show where in the equations "collapse" is described.) To this day it remains a glaring problem in the Copenhagen Interpretation that many of its adherents simply flat out pretend doesn't exist. This is, incidentally, the point Schrodinger was making with his famous cat. Something profoundly interesting certainly happens between the quantum scale and the macro scale, but "instantaneous collapse" isn't it. Unfortunately, a shorthand expression for "we'll come back to that later" became enshrined as dogma and has stifled a lot of potentially interesting discussion.

All of this, of course, has nothing to do with the canard that Einstein resisted QM for fear it contradicted his own work (not least because Einstein actually won his Nobel Prize for his paper on the Photoelectric Effect, one of the foundation stones of QM). The difficulties in reconciling QM and GR would not be discovered for decades after. Among other things, Einstein was a brilliant intuitionist, and he instinctively knew that something wasn't right with the Copenhagen Interpretation, that something very profound was being swept under the rug. And he was right.
 
2013-02-03 09:13:14 AM
The most interesting thing about quantum foam, IMO, was left out of this article entirely.  It's not just a foam of virtual particles... it's the actual structure of spacetime that's "foamy" down below the Planck length, because of the relatively massive energy of the interactions.  Time, distance, and locale cease to have meaning when you get that small.  There may even be tiny wormholes that lead to other universes.
 
2013-02-03 10:00:02 AM

nmemkha: If there is measurable force then couldn't somethingpiezoelectric crystals be employed to capture the energy and convert to it to anelectrical current?


Done.

images3.wikia.nocookie.net
 
2013-02-03 10:32:01 AM
 Michael Crichton wrote a book with this as a major element sometime back, I think 2000 or so.  It had the exact same summary.  It was turned into an awful (but fun)  movie with Gerard Butler.
 
2013-02-03 10:50:05 AM

Old Man Winter: Michael Crichton wrote a book with this as a major element sometime back, I think 2000 or so.  It had the exact same summary.  It was turned into an awful (but fun)  movie with Gerard Butler.


The book was awful too. The first chapter or so tried to use the quantum foam concept to explain how time travel could be feasible, then completely ditched that to be a "Hey make this a movie" popcorn novel about out of place scientists stuck in the middle ages.
 
2013-02-03 11:16:41 AM
nmemkha:

If there is measurable force then couldn't somethingpiezoelectric crystals be employed to capture the energy and convert to it to anelectrical current?

I suppose you could, but then you have to pull the plates apart again.
 
2013-02-03 11:54:20 AM

MolsonCanadian: nmemkha:

If there is measurable force then couldn't somethingpiezoelectric crystals be employed to capture the energy and convert to it to anelectrical current?

I suppose you could, but then you have to pull the plates apart again.


blogs.popart.com

/Killjoy
 
2013-02-03 11:55:52 AM

Old Man Winter:  Michael Crichton wrote a book with this as a major element sometime back, I think 2000 or so.  It had the exact same summary.  It was turned into an awful (but fun)  movie with Gerard Butler.


I was going to say l thought I had read a book about this. It sucked.

/Crichton? Of course.
 
2013-02-03 12:03:27 PM
calitreview.com

"I split the beer atom!"
 
2013-02-03 05:58:08 PM

Alleyoop: [calitreview.com image 462x260]

"I split the beer atom!"


Came for Young Einstein, leaving satisfied!
 
2013-02-03 06:45:29 PM
"In 1948, a physicist named Hendrik Casimir realized that if you placed two metal plates near each other, separated by a very small distance, the quantum foam would cause them to move. To visualize this, remember that quantum particles are also waves. Between the plates, only waves (particles) with wavelengths smaller than the separation between the plates can exist. Outside the gap, waves (particles) of all wavelengths can exist. Thus there are more particles outside the gap than inside, and the imbalance pushes the two plates together. This effect has been observed."

If that is so then the line about it being impossible to extract energy from quantum foam is nonsense, its pushing the plates together, its doing work, surely that kinetic energy could be converted into electrical energy....but would that mean that were this to be performed on a large scale, we would gradually be adding to the total energy content of the universe which given that energy equals mass, increasing the total mass of the universe?
 
2013-02-03 08:07:11 PM

Micky-P: "In 1948, a physicist named Hendrik Casimir realized that if you placed two metal plates near each other, separated by a very small distance, the quantum foam would cause them to move. To visualize this, remember that quantum particles are also waves. Between the plates, only waves (particles) with wavelengths smaller than the separation between the plates can exist. Outside the gap, waves (particles) of all wavelengths can exist. Thus there are more particles outside the gap than inside, and the imbalance pushes the two plates together. This effect has been observed."

If that is so then the line about it being impossible to extract energy from quantum foam is nonsense, its pushing the plates together, its doing work, surely that kinetic energy could be converted into electrical energy....but would that mean that were this to be performed on a large scale, we would gradually be adding to the total energy content of the universe which given that energy equals mass, increasing the total mass of the universe?


The work done by moving two plates together such a tiny distance is extremely miniscule and not capable of powering anything.
 
2013-02-03 08:28:02 PM

The All-Powerful Atheismo: Micky-P: "In 1948, a physicist named Hendrik Casimir realized that if you placed two metal plates near each other, separated by a very small distance, the quantum foam would cause them to move. To visualize this, remember that quantum particles are also waves. Between the plates, only waves (particles) with wavelengths smaller than the separation between the plates can exist. Outside the gap, waves (particles) of all wavelengths can exist. Thus there are more particles outside the gap than inside, and the imbalance pushes the two plates together. This effect has been observed."

If that is so then the line about it being impossible to extract energy from quantum foam is nonsense, its pushing the plates together, its doing work, surely that kinetic energy could be converted into electrical energy....but would that mean that were this to be performed on a large scale, we would gradually be adding to the total energy content of the universe which given that energy equals mass, increasing the total mass of the universe?

The work done by moving two plates together such a tiny distance is extremely miniscule and not capable of powering anything.


More importantly, it implies that more work was done in separating the plates in the first place.

Entropy always wins.
 
2013-02-03 11:01:07 PM
Quantum foam, makes me roam
To the place,I belong
Old Black Rocky, country highway
Quantum foam makes me roam

Came for this reference.
Going to bed smiling
 
2013-02-04 01:38:09 AM
i172.photobucket.com
 
2013-02-04 05:35:21 AM
The All-Powerful Atheismo:

The work done by moving two plates together such a tiny distance is extremely miniscule and not capable of powering anything.

czetie:

More importantly, it implies that more work was done in separating the plates in the first place.

Entropy always wins.


You're really missing the point...ok lets lay this out really plain. 

Total energy content of the universe, stays the same right?

I can invest 1 joule or a trillion joules of energy into moving the plates apart, it doesnt matter, its all energy already existing in our universe, and having been expended that energy still exists in the universe. The total energy content of the universe stays the same.

NOW however, energy derived from the quantum foam pushes the plates together, this energy was derived from NOWHERE, NOT from the existing energy content of the universe.

Now that the quantum foam has actually exerted force on an object in the universe, i.e done work. Has that energy now been added to the total energy content of the universe? Increasing the total amount of energy in the universe?

My point was about the implications of the total energy content of the universe actually being able to increase as a result of this.
 
2013-02-04 05:54:34 AM

Micky-P: The All-Powerful Atheismo:

The work done by moving two plates together such a tiny distance is extremely miniscule and not capable of powering anything.

czetie:

More importantly, it implies that more work was done in separating the plates in the first place.

Entropy always wins.

You're really missing the point...ok lets lay this out really plain. 

Total energy content of the universe, stays the same right?

I can invest 1 joule or a trillion joules of energy into moving the plates apart, it doesnt matter, its all energy already existing in our universe, and having been expended that energy still exists in the universe. The total energy content of the universe stays the same.

NOW however, energy derived from the quantum foam pushes the plates together, this energy was derived from NOWHERE, NOT from the existing energy content of the universe.

Now that the quantum foam has actually exerted force on an object in the universe, i.e done work. Has that energy now been added to the total energy content of the universe? Increasing the total amount of energy in the universe?

My point was about the implications of the total energy content of the universe actually being able to increase as a result of this.


Maybe quantum foam represents a seething boundary that separates our matter universe from a paired anti-matter twin. Zero-Point energy breeches the barrier and is thus "borrowed" from our anti-universe. However, simultaneously, we lose it at some other point along the boundary. Thus, while we observe a "gain" zero-point energy, the overall equilibrium is maintained.
 
2013-02-04 10:33:47 AM

doglover: Einstein was brilliant in his field, but he wasn't the wisest person in the world, just a gifted physicist. He knew his way around an equation, but he was a mortal man with mortal failings. He had a theory and quantum seemed to go against it, so he rejected it.



Are you writing one of those alternate history science fiction novels?  Because in this universe, Einstein is considered one the founders of quantum mechanics, and spent the latter part of his life on it.  He realized the wave-particle duality to describe photons (electromagnetic quanta), and received his Nobel prize for the foundations of QED  (not the theory of relativity).
 
2013-02-04 10:34:11 AM

Micky-P: Total energy content of the universe, stays the same right?


Not exactly. It's taught that way in high school and it's a damn good approximation for every circumstance you'll ever encounter in normal life, but it's not actually true. But in any case...

Micky-P: Now that the quantum foam has actually exerted force on an object in the universe, i.e done work. Has that energy now been added to the total energy content of the universe? Increasing the total amount of energy in the universe?


No. Merely exerting a force doesn't do any work. Resisting the force (holding the two plates together) doesn't do any work. It's only when you allow the force to move the two plates together that any work gets done. The only way to extract energy from this force is to allow the force to act over a distance, or in other words for the plates to actually move together.

Now, you might say "OK, so we let the two plates move together -- doesn't that produce energy?"; and the answer is yes -- it produces exactly the same energy that was required to move the plates apart to begin with.

If it helps, think about the system like this. Start with two plates resting together. You separate them to a small distance where the Casimir effect is relevant. Along the way you discover that it's harder to pull them apart than classical mechanics suggests because you have to overcome the Casimir effect. You have to do work. Then you hold them apart (I don't know, maybe with tiny little shims?). There's tension between the plates -- the Casimir effect pulling them together -- but no work is being done as long as they are stationary. Now release the plates. As they move together, work is done and energy is released corresponding to the work you had to do to separate the plates. Although the Casimir force appears out of nothing (loosely speaking), energy doesn't.

Not sure if that helps at all... but please trust me, I do understand the point you think I'm missing.
 
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