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(Huffington Post)   From the "This is why we can't have nice things" desk: 45% of Americans say they believe in ghosts   (huffingtonpost.com) divider line 394
    More: Asinine, Americans, real ghosts, dead people  
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4137 clicks; posted to Main » on 02 Feb 2013 at 6:16 PM (2 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-02-02 03:06:49 PM  
It is one of the more harmless beliefs. Not many people have been killed over ghosts, nor does belief in ghosts trash the political process.
 
2013-02-02 03:07:55 PM  
Don't believe in ghosts, but have seen weird shiat.
 
wee
2013-02-02 03:17:21 PM  
More than that believe in a god.  Some even believe that this invisible man in the sky will listen to them and do shiat for them.  They live their lives in the context of this imaginary friend advising them.  They give money to people who talk to them about this magical being.

That's far worse than believing in ghosts.
 
2013-02-02 03:19:41 PM  

ecmoRandomNumbers: Don't believe in ghosts, but have seen weird shiat.


I've always wanted to see one, but never have. The strangest thing I've seen is my mom answer the phone before it rang. Twice. Each time it was my brother calling. She claimed she did it all the time. I was seriously wondering if she weighed more than a duck.
 
2013-02-02 03:21:41 PM  
Were they paying respondents? You'll get differing answers if you do that.

media.screened.com
 
2013-02-02 03:22:48 PM  

St_Francis_P: It is one of the more harmless beliefs. Not many people have been killed over ghosts, nor does belief in ghosts trash the political process.


Except it is a symptom of the kind of magical thinking that does trash the political process, when the electorate wants X amount of services and believes, despite all evidence to the contrary, that those services can be purchased for some amount of money less than X. Or that something must be done about the 12 million illegal immigrants "ruining the country", while a few thousand bankers actually did tank the economy and any effort to punish them or even prevent it from happening in the future was defeated amid cries of socialism and tyranny.

Wow... maybe I should get more fiber or something.

Anyway, 45% of Americans are stupid.
 
2013-02-02 03:25:34 PM  

skinnycatullus: St_Francis_P: It is one of the more harmless beliefs. Not many people have been killed over ghosts, nor does belief in ghosts trash the political process.

Except it is a symptom of the kind of magical thinking that does trash the political process, when the electorate wants X amount of services and believes, despite all evidence to the contrary, that those services can be purchased for some amount of money less than X. Or that something must be done about the 12 million illegal immigrants "ruining the country", while a few thousand bankers actually did tank the economy and any effort to punish them or even prevent it from happening in the future was defeated amid cries of socialism and tyranny.

Wow... maybe I should get more fiber or something.

Anyway, 45% of Americans are stupid.


Well, maybe a symptom of all that. I've known people from all parts of the political spectrum who believe in ghosts.
 
vpb [TotalFark]
2013-02-02 03:27:31 PM  
They make great cheese, try some Chevre some time.

I'll bet they are a biatch to milk though.
 
2013-02-02 03:36:29 PM  

ecmoRandomNumbers: Don't believe in ghosts, but have seen weird shiat.


Same here.

My previous workplace, a public television station, was allegedly haunted by the ghost of this dude. Part of the studio consisted of Mr. Ray's old movie studio, which dates back to 1920. One of my former cow orkers told me about chatting with a repairman who was doing some work in a small screening theater on the property. The repairman told her that he thought someone had tapped him on the shoulder, but when he turned around, no one was there. She told him, "Oh, that's our resident ghost," and said that he turned pale.

One cow orker who used Mr. Ray's old office mentioned that occasionally he would arrive in the morning to find that various items had been moved to different areas in the room. Weird.

I sometimes wandered around the old studio buildings at night in hopes of seeing the ghost, but never had any luck. I DID encounter an albino skunk one evening (I thought it was a white cat, until it turned around).
 
2013-02-02 03:40:55 PM  

vpb: They make great cheese, try some Chevre some time.

I'll bet they are a biatch to milk though.


i105.photobucket.com
Nicholas Cage
in
Goat Rider
 
2013-02-02 03:52:24 PM  

St_Francis_P: I was seriously wondering if she weighed more than a duck.


I've heard there are ways to test for that.
 
2013-02-02 04:01:29 PM  
I do. I've studied the Paranormal for over 30 years. I've got a great "laugh" from a cemetery I walked through.
When people ask me to give them proof there's ghosts, I just tell them it's not my job to make you believe.
That's YOUR job. Do your own homework. I do it for fun, not change the World.
 
2013-02-02 04:06:55 PM  
It's fun to play pretend.
 
2013-02-02 04:28:39 PM  

wee: More than that believe in a god.  Some even believe that this invisible man in the sky will listen to them and do shiat for them.  They live their lives in the context of this imaginary friend advising them.  They give money to people who talk to them about this magical being.

That's far worse than believing in ghosts.


Yep, pretty much this.  It's one thing to believe that there may be some sort of existence after death that sometimes crosses over into this universe, but if you believe THIS GUY is being honest with you about the invisible man in the sky, then you're a farking moron.

4.bp.blogspot.com
 
2013-02-02 04:38:55 PM  
Why do ghost's always have clothes on?

Why aren't there more reports of dinosaur ghosts?
 
2013-02-02 04:46:13 PM  

Godscrack: Why do ghost's always have clothes on?

Why aren't there more reports of dinosaur ghosts?


The government always hushes it up.
 
2013-02-02 04:49:02 PM  

Godscrack: Why do ghost's always have clothes on?


I assume that sucubbi don't wear clothes, since that would be counter-productive.
 
2013-02-02 05:06:13 PM  

Zombie DJ: I do. I've studied the Paranormal for over 30 years. I've got a great "laugh" from a cemetery I walked through.
When people ask me to give them proof there's ghosts, I just tell them it's not my job to make you believe.
That's YOUR job. Do your own homework. I do it for fun, not change the World.


I would love to go "ghost hunting" but I've no one to go with. I've had a few dreams from people I've known who died. A few months ago - I had to dream about my cousin. She committed suicide two Easters ago. She wanted me to give her mom a message. It was weird. My dreams are always for other people. Rarely are they for me.

My mom is the same way.
 
2013-02-02 05:08:59 PM  

Bontesla: Zombie DJ: I do. I've studied the Paranormal for over 30 years. I've got a great "laugh" from a cemetery I walked through.
When people ask me to give them proof there's ghosts, I just tell them it's not my job to make you believe.
That's YOUR job. Do your own homework. I do it for fun, not change the World.

I would love to go "ghost hunting" but I've no one to go with. I've had a few dreams from people I've known who died. A few months ago - I had to dream about my cousin. She committed suicide two Easters ago. She wanted me to give her mom a message. It was weird. My dreams are always for other people. Rarely are they for me.

My mom is the same way.


Hell, my aunt (mom's sister) also dreams visits. It's how she found out her husband died in an accident.
 
2013-02-02 05:10:15 PM  
Ghost bit my sister.
 
2013-02-02 05:10:45 PM  

davidphogan: St_Francis_P: I was seriously wondering if she weighed more than a duck.

I've heard there are ways to test for that.


bshistorian.files.wordpress.com
 
2013-02-02 05:23:38 PM  

Sgygus: Ghost bit my sister.


Thank goodness it was just a ghost.  If an Oompa Loompa bites you, then when the moon is full, you turn into one of them.
 
2013-02-02 06:20:18 PM  
encrypted-tbn1.gstatic.com
 
2013-02-02 06:20:38 PM  
The only real ghost is the Holy Ghost, amirite?
 
2013-02-02 06:20:56 PM  
While I don't believe in ghosts, I love reading books of "real" ghost stories. Ghosts are up there with the various cryptids in the "Most likely not real, but would be cool if they were" department.
 
2013-02-02 06:22:06 PM  
Remember folks, everyone who believes in something you don't is a stupid simpleton. Doesn't matter if it's ghost, religion or global warming.  Don't even get me started on aliens.
 
2013-02-02 06:23:22 PM  
People believe in all sorts of bizzare shiat. Not sure why we cant have nice things because of this subby...
 
2013-02-02 06:23:27 PM  

BillCo: Remember folks, everyone who believes in something you don't

that isn't real is a stupid simpleton

ftfy
 
2013-02-02 06:24:17 PM  
Who ya gonna call?
 
2013-02-02 06:24:56 PM  
A billion people wandering around the globe with cell phone cameras, CCTV everywhere and not one has managed to capture a ghost. Nothing but obvious fakes, pareidolia, and "orbs" (as in, "Well, yeah, it was snowing and I used a flash, but those totally aren't snowflakes, they're like spirits or something"). Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof, and all we've been given so far is shiat.
 
2013-02-02 06:25:41 PM  

ecmoRandomNumbers: Don't believe in ghosts, but have seen weird shiat.


Have you tried getting more fiber in your diet?
 
2013-02-02 06:25:51 PM  
Came for the smug leaving with a years supply of smug after only 22 posts.

Not saying I believe in ghosts but when you get around my age if you have not seen one or two things you cant explain then sucks for you.
 
2013-02-02 06:26:52 PM  
 
2013-02-02 06:27:19 PM  
I do believe in spooks, I do believe in spooks, I do, I do, I do, I do believe in spooks
 
2013-02-02 06:27:38 PM  

Zombie DJ: Do your own homework.


STUDY IT OUT.
 
2013-02-02 06:28:10 PM  
I've encountered weird stuff with a Ouija board.

/for reals
 
2013-02-02 06:29:58 PM  

ItchyMcDoogle: Came for the smug leaving with a years supply of smug after only 22 posts.

Not saying I believe in ghosts but when you get around my age if you have not seen one or two things you cant explain then sucks for you.



"I can't explain everything I've seen, therefore the souls of the dead remain walking the earth in eternal torment, bound and imprisoned on this physical plane, forever seeking atonement for their sins and forgiveness that will never come!"

Sounds perfectly reasonable, anyone who doesn't accept that simple syllogism must be just smug.
 
2013-02-02 06:30:35 PM  
I don't believe in ghosts as surviving spirits of people whose bodies have died, because they never seem to act appropriately. By which I mean, act how people typically act when given the slightest chance of not being retaliated against. They're always trying to keep people away from their property, or trying to get people to do things they tried but failed to accomplish before they died so they can "rest in peace," instead of waving their phantasmal genitalia around, invading large parties for the purpose of dry-humping the guests of honor, and otherwise trying to get away with things they didn't dare do when they were alive.

/I do, however, believe in ghosts as imaginary entities we conjure up to comfort ourselves with the possibility of having a second chance after we die
//imagination can kill you if you let it, but it can also save your life if you understand it
 
2013-02-02 06:30:39 PM  

St_Francis_P: ecmoRandomNumbers: Don't believe in ghosts, but have seen weird shiat.

I've always wanted to see one, but never have. The strangest thing I've seen is my mom answer the phone before it rang. Twice. Each time it was my brother calling. She claimed she did it all the time. I was seriously wondering if she weighed more than a duck.


She must have very good hearing, old landline phones make a sound just before they ring. It is inaudible to the average person, but many animals can hear it. A friend had a dog that hated the sound of a ringing phone, he learned to knock the phone off the hook when he heard the first sound. I've heard of cats doing the same thing.
 
2013-02-02 06:31:06 PM  

FloydA: ItchyMcDoogle: Came for the smug leaving with a years supply of smug after only 22 posts.

Not saying I believe in ghosts but when you get around my age if you have not seen one or two things you cant explain then sucks for you.


"I can't explain everything I've seen, therefore the souls of the dead remain walking the earth in eternal torment, bound and imprisoned on this physical plane, forever seeking atonement for their sins and forgiveness that will never come!"

Sounds perfectly reasonable, anyone who doesn't accept that simple syllogism must be just smug.


Thank you for saying that in a much more amusing way than I was going to.
 
2013-02-02 06:31:58 PM  
A link to the poll would have been nice.
 
2013-02-02 06:32:43 PM  

Rufus Lee King: How is everyone so sure that there aren't ghosts?


How is everyone so sure there isn't a tiny invisible man who watches over your anus as night?
 
2013-02-02 06:34:03 PM  

BillCo: Remember folks, everyone who believes in something you don't is a stupid simpleton. Doesn't matter if it's ghost, religion or global warming.  Don't even get me started on aliens.


If you beleive in something that has no evidence and violates the laws of physics and biology, well you're an idiot. Show me the mechanism by which a ghost can exist.
 
2013-02-02 06:34:17 PM  

Tatterdemalian: I don't believe in ghosts as surviving spirits of people whose bodies have died, because they never seem to act appropriately.


If I were a ghost I'd definitely spend all my time in girls' locker rooms. Can ghosts jerk off?
 
2013-02-02 06:34:52 PM  

Rufus Lee King: How is everyone so sure that there aren't ghosts?


Extraordinary claims, how do they farking work?
 
2013-02-02 06:35:07 PM  
I don't believe in anything paranormal or pseudoscientific.

But I love the legends and oral traditions around this stuff.  It's entertaining and I've been on a few ghost hunts and stayed the night in a "haunted" hotel room.  Nothing turned up, but it was still fun.  Same reason why I love the UFO stuff, Bigfoot and Republican social policy.
 
2013-02-02 06:36:09 PM  

Rufus Lee King: How is everyone so sure that there aren't ghosts?


Assuming you're not joking:

It's not people are "sure" there aren't ghosts. It's that there has never been any evidence to suggest it besides second hand accounts and poorly faked photographs/video/audio.

Russel's Teapot is the best explanation for why we don't assume something is true just because some people believe it without evidence.
 
2013-02-02 06:37:03 PM  

jigger: BillCo: Remember folks, everyone who believes in something you don't that isn't real is a stupid simpleton

ftfy


Do you believe in wealth, laws, promises? None of those are real.

/this is why atheist ideologies end up just as insane as religious cults
//they believe in things that aren't real, they just try to change the definition of "real" to suit themselves
///reality is that which doesn't disappear when people don't believe in it... try spending a million dollars in confederate money if you don't think wealth can disappear when people stop believing in it
 
2013-02-02 06:37:41 PM  

Rufus Lee King: How is everyone so sure that there aren't ghosts?


Well, there's the fact that there's no mechanism by which they can function. Being dead and all.
 
2013-02-02 06:38:01 PM  
I;ll have what their having!
 
2013-02-02 06:38:46 PM  
I don't believe in ghosts. Most of the phenomena can be explained by the human body reacting to a situation because of evolution. If a house settles it makes a noise. Because you don't know what the noise is, you react to it like there was something there. If you tend to believe in ghosts, then what you heard was a ghost. Even if you don't believe in ghosts, your brain is wired to be fearful of what you can't see and don't understand.
 
2013-02-02 06:40:54 PM  

FloydA: ItchyMcDoogle: Came for the smug leaving with a years supply of smug after only 22 posts.

Not saying I believe in ghosts but when you get around my age if you have not seen one or two things you cant explain then sucks for you.


"I can't explain everything I've seen, therefore the souls of the dead remain walking the earth in eternal torment, bound and imprisoned on this physical plane, forever seeking atonement for their sins and forgiveness that will never come!"

Umm nope. And who exactly said that? You? I don't believe that the souls of people wander around the earth in ghostly linens forever to be repeating their last moments. However I DO believe that certain traumatic and horrific events can leave an "imprint" on certain places.

 
2013-02-02 06:41:15 PM  

Tatterdemalian: jigger: BillCo: Remember folks, everyone who believes in something you don't that isn't real is a stupid simpleton

ftfy

Do you believe in wealth, laws, promises? None of those are real.

/this is why atheist ideologies end up just as insane as religious cults
//they believe in things that aren't real, they just try to change the definition of "real" to suit themselves


And this is where you show you're an idiot.
 
2013-02-02 06:41:30 PM  
The haunting of a factory by George Bull will make you into a believer.
 
2013-02-02 06:41:40 PM  

sharpie_69: Rufus Lee King: How is everyone so sure that there aren't ghosts?

How is everyone so sure there isn't a tiny invisible man who watches over your anus as night?


You leave Mr. Pillow Pants out of this!
 
2013-02-02 06:42:16 PM  

Zombie DJ: I do. I've studied the Paranormal for over 30 years. I've got a great "laugh" from a cemetery I walked through.
When people ask me to give them proof there's ghosts, I just tell them it's not my job to make you believe.
That's YOUR job. Do your own homework. I do it for fun, not change the World.


That's how charlatans work.
 
2013-02-02 06:43:05 PM  

ItchyMcDoogle: Came for the smug leaving with a years supply of smug after only 22 posts.

Not saying I believe in ghosts but when you get around my age if you have not seen one or two things you cant explain then sucks for you.


Tide comes in, tide goes out, can't explain that!
 
2013-02-02 06:43:11 PM  
99% of all hauntings are cats.
 
2013-02-02 06:43:50 PM  

Zeppelininthesky: I don't believe in ghosts. Most of the phenomena can be explained by the human body reacting to a situation because of evolution. If a house settles it makes a noise. Because you don't know what the noise is, you react to it like there was something there. If you tend to believe in ghosts, then what you heard was a ghost. Even if you don't believe in ghosts, your brain is wired to be fearful of what you can't see and don't understand.


Basically this. Our minds are wondrous, but they also fark with us every day. It hasn't evolved to the point that it we are no longer cowering in caves or trees afraid with the good chance of being dragged off by a large predator.

*unfamiliar sound*
Rational part of the mind: What was that? I don't know what it is.
Instinctive mind: Run, asshole! It's some terrifying and huge with sharp teeth and you're going to die!

Very good when you're naked, hungry, and in the wild. Not so good when you're house is settling and you're half asleep.
 
2013-02-02 06:44:12 PM  
Rustblade:

Umm nope. And who exactly said that? You? I don't believe that the souls of people wander around the earth in ghostly linens forever to be repeating their last moments. However I DO believe that certain traumatic and horrific events can leave an "imprint" on certain places.


How?

By what mechanism can a human's emotional trauma be "imprinted" on a place?   What are traumatic emotions made of, and how is that substance transferred from the mind of the individual to the location?
 
2013-02-02 06:44:35 PM  
Meh...in a society where 90% (?) of people believe in "souls", I really can't get that worked up about the half of them who merely embellish an already silly and widely accepted idea.
 
2013-02-02 06:45:41 PM  

Zeppelininthesky: I don't believe in ghosts. Most of the phenomena can be explained by the human body reacting to a situation because of evolution. If a house settles it makes a noise. Because you don't know what the noise is, you react to it like there was something there. If you tend to believe in ghosts, then what you heard was a ghost. Even if you don't believe in ghosts, your brain is wired to be fearful of what you can't see and don't understand.


Our brains come with hard-coded "co-processors" that go about their duties with no input or control from us. Some process sounds, some process taste, some keep a lookout for threats, some for mates, etc... Sometimes they misfire, especially the threat detectors. It's better to see a tiger hiding in the grass that doesn't actually exist than it is to not see the real tiger hiding in the grass.
 
2013-02-02 06:46:04 PM  

FloydA: By what mechanism can a human's emotional trauma be "imprinted" on a place?   What are traumatic emotions made of, and how is that substance transferred from the mind of the individual to the location?


And why does the mechanism only seem to work upon someone's death? Can't this imprint happen from someone that has been sufficiently traumatized without them dying? Why not?
 
2013-02-02 06:47:42 PM  

Tatterdemalian: I don't believe in ghosts as surviving spirits of people whose bodies have died, because they never seem to act appropriately. By which I mean, act how people typically act when given the slightest chance of not being retaliated against. They're always trying to keep people away from their property, or trying to get people to do things they tried but failed to accomplish before they died so they can "rest in peace," instead of waving their phantasmal genitalia around, invading large parties for the purpose of dry-humping the guests of honor, and otherwise trying to get away with things they didn't dare do when they were alive.

/I do, however, believe in ghosts as imaginary entities we conjure up to comfort ourselves with the possibility of having a second chance after we die
//imagination can kill you if you let it, but it can also save your life if you understand it


I'll be damned if I can find it now, but I read a really interesting study a few years back that plotted on maps every location where a "ghost" had ever been reported to authorities.

A statistically significant number of them occurred within a short distance from power plants or electrical substations.  They hypothesis was that power electrical fields can interfere with the workings of the brain.
 
2013-02-02 06:47:46 PM  

Rustblade: However I DO believe that certain traumatic and horrific events can leave an "imprint" on certain places.


And just how would they do that? Explain just how the emotional state in someone's brain can leave an "imprint". And does that "imprint" remain if no one alive knows what happened there?
 
2013-02-02 06:47:48 PM  

sharpie_69: Rufus Lee King: How is everyone so sure that there aren't ghosts?

How is everyone so sure there isn't a tiny invisible man who watches over your anus as night?


Don't be so rude.

I'm neither tiny or invisible.
 
2013-02-02 06:49:46 PM  

St_Francis_P: Godscrack: Why do ghost's always have clothes on?

I assume that sucubbi don't wear clothes, since that would be counter-productive.


Sometimes they do. I think it's just to create cleavage, though.

i45.tinypic.com
 
2013-02-02 06:49:51 PM  

ItchyMcDoogle: Not saying I believe in ghosts but when you get around my age if you have not seen one or two things you cant explain then sucks for you.


I know, right?  Any time I encounter something I don't understand or can't explain, I attribute it to ghosts.  For example, I don't entirely understand how an internal combustion engine works; therefore, it is powered by ghosts and anyone who denies it is a smug, closed-minded bastard.

/If your car won't start, it's because all the ghosts got out.
 
2013-02-02 06:50:59 PM  
I think people's brains are just broken in odd ways, making them believe things that aren't true.  Studies have shown that certain brain formations are much more susceptible to religious indoctrination, for example.  I'm betting the brains of ghost believers are similarly misformed somehow.
 
2013-02-02 06:51:12 PM  

Ed Grubermann: BillCo: Remember folks, everyone who believes in something you don't is a stupid simpleton. Doesn't matter if it's ghost, religion or global warming.  Don't even get me started on aliens.

If you beleive in something that has no evidence and violates the laws of physics and biology, well you're an idiot. Show me the mechanism by which a ghost can exist.


Explain to me how quantum entanglement works, then you can lecture me on how ghosts can't exist.
 
2013-02-02 06:51:19 PM  
Your mommy and daddy might have told you there are no such things as ghosts.

not my folks.. they are in the 45.%
 
2013-02-02 06:52:45 PM  
I think it's closer to 47%.
 
2013-02-02 06:52:45 PM  
Does this include the spirit in the sky
 
2013-02-02 06:53:51 PM  
Americans believe a lot of stupid shiat. Ghosts, UFOs, Angels, that the Earth is flat, that Republicans can govern responsibly, etc.
 
2013-02-02 06:54:03 PM  
I see dumb people.
 
2013-02-02 06:54:18 PM  
Ghosts are made of dark matter.
 
2013-02-02 06:54:35 PM  
Sleep paralysis=99% of ghosts.  The other 1% is cats.
 
2013-02-02 06:55:07 PM  

italie: Ed Grubermann: BillCo: Remember folks, everyone who believes in something you don't is a stupid simpleton. Doesn't matter if it's ghost, religion or global warming.  Don't even get me started on aliens.

If you beleive in something that has no evidence and violates the laws of physics and biology, well you're an idiot. Show me the mechanism by which a ghost can exist.

Explain to me how quantum entanglement works, then you can lecture me on how ghosts can't exist.


Explain to me how quantum entanglement has anything to do with dead people. Your wishful thinking is no substitute for an education.
 
2013-02-02 06:55:41 PM  
My family is from Mexico, it has a strong ghost lore/folk lore that is still very much alive. Although I was raised irreligiously it was there were still ghost stories a lot. I love ghost stories even though I don't believe it exists anymore than any figment of gods but I take that to be cultural. That said, ghosts are no more idiotic than any other belief such as gods, blessings, and four leaved clovers bringing luck.
 
2013-02-02 06:57:05 PM  

Prank Call of Cthulhu: Tatterdemalian: I don't believe in ghosts as surviving spirits of people whose bodies have died, because they never seem to act appropriately.

If I were a ghost I'd definitely spend all my time in girls' locker rooms. Can ghosts jerk off?


why would they even want to?  they have no dicks
 
2013-02-02 06:58:43 PM  

Sgygus: Ghosts are made of dark matter.


Or, dark matter is made of ghosts...I mean, might as well put everyone's superstitions on the table, right?
 
2013-02-02 06:59:07 PM  
Sometime after last Halloween, I started reading the annual Fark ghost story thread.  After that I read the entire threads from several previous years.  (See links in the thread.)  I was hooked, all I wanted was more ghost stories.  I was also a little jumpy during that time, if I happened to be alone in a dark place. At the same time though, I was curious and wanted to know more, maybe to see something.  (Then I found this trove of over 11,000 stories, and wasted even more time.)  I didn't become a believer in ghouls exactly; I still consider myself agnostic on that.

It is remarkable though how many people have reported similar phenomena.  I do think the mind can fool itself when it comes to visual or auditory stimuli, creaking houses, etc. but there are some things beyond our ability to dismiss.  Like the time two of my friends had very specific dreams about the same event happening to me, a traumatic occurrence that led to my taking a plane flight.  And a week later it happened just as prophesied.  Nothing I had previously told them could possibly have clued them in, and anyway I had no idea that it was coming.  And the details they told me were fulfilled exactly.  You can't explain that!
 
2013-02-02 06:59:13 PM  

Jon iz teh kewl: Prank Call of Cthulhu: Tatterdemalian: I don't believe in ghosts as surviving spirits of people whose bodies have died, because they never seem to act appropriately.

If I were a ghost I'd definitely spend all my time in girls' locker rooms. Can ghosts jerk off?

why would they even want to?  they have no dicks


becominglayla.com
 
2013-02-02 06:59:18 PM  

Maggie_Luna: My family is from Mexico, it has a strong ghost lore/folk lore that is still very much alive. Although I was raised irreligiously it was there were still ghost stories a lot. I love ghost stories even though I don't believe it exists anymore than any figment of gods but I take that to be cultural. That said, ghosts are no more idiotic than any other belief such as gods, blessings, and four leaved clovers bringing luck.


Wait, I need to amend my last sentence. "Ghosts are no more idiotic than most other beliefs such as..." because there are some stupid things people believe, and they are by far stupider/nonsensical than above others.
 
2013-02-02 06:59:19 PM  

Ed Grubermann: italie: Ed Grubermann: BillCo: Remember folks, everyone who believes in something you don't is a stupid simpleton. Doesn't matter if it's ghost, religion or global warming.  Don't even get me started on aliens.

If you beleive in something that has no evidence and violates the laws of physics and biology, well you're an idiot. Show me the mechanism by which a ghost can exist.

Explain to me how quantum entanglement works, then you can lecture me on how ghosts can't exist.

Explain to me how quantum entanglement has anything to do with dead people. Your wishful thinking is no substitute for an education.


I never said it did, nor did I ever infer my beliefs on ghosts. I just want you to explain quantum entanglement to me.
 
2013-02-02 06:59:35 PM  

italie: Ed Grubermann: BillCo: Remember folks, everyone who believes in something you don't is a stupid simpleton. Doesn't matter if it's ghost, religion or global warming.  Don't even get me started on aliens.

If you beleive in something that has no evidence and violates the laws of physics and biology, well you're an idiot. Show me the mechanism by which a ghost can exist.

Explain to me how quantum entanglement works, then you can lecture me on how ghosts can't exist.


"Can exist" is meaningless.

Extraordinary claims, etc. etc.
 
2013-02-02 07:02:24 PM  

Ed Grubermann: Tatterdemalian: jigger: BillCo: Remember folks, everyone who believes in something you don't that isn't real is a stupid simpleton

ftfy

Do you believe in wealth, laws, promises? None of those are real.

/this is why atheist ideologies end up just as insane as religious cults
//they believe in things that aren't real, they just try to change the definition of "real" to suit themselves

And this is where you show you're an idiot.


So they are an idiot for saying that the standard stereotypical atheist, when having their "core beliefs" challenged, go into fundie mode and act in the same way that they scream in rage about? Do you think that skeptics all around have ever checked into any of these "stupid" beliefs, or do you just go with what hack magicians with superiority complexes say? And if anyone for a minute thinks science has it all figured out or that if theories don't trip over themselves all the time because they don't match up or make no sense, you'd be nuts.
 
2013-02-02 07:02:36 PM  

TreeHugger: Sometime after last Halloween, I started reading the annual Fark ghost story thread.  After that I read the entire threads from several previous years.  (See links in the thread.)  I was hooked, all I wanted was more ghost stories.  I was also a little jumpy during that time, if I happened to be alone in a dark place. At the same time though, I was curious and wanted to know more, maybe to see something.  (Then I found this trove of over 11,000 stories, and wasted even more time.)  I didn't become a believer in ghouls exactly; I still consider myself agnostic on that.

It is remarkable though how many people have reported similar phenomena.  I do think the mind can fool itself when it comes to visual or auditory stimuli, creaking houses, etc. but there are some things beyond our ability to dismiss.  Like the time two of my friends had very specific dreams about the same event happening to me, a traumatic occurrence that led to my taking a plane flight.  And a week later it happened just as prophesied.  Nothing I had previously told them could possibly have clued them in, and anyway I had no idea that it was coming.  And the details they told me were fulfilled exactly.  You can't explain that!


Yes, I can.
 
2013-02-02 07:03:30 PM  

FloydA: vpb: They make great cheese, try some Chevre some time.

I'll bet they are a biatch to milk though.


Nicholas Cage
in
Goat Rider


That is pure win.

One internets for you.
 
2013-02-02 07:03:46 PM  
I_dig_ChicksSleep paralysis=99% of ghosts.  The other 1% is cats.
what about a cat with sleep paralysis?
 
2013-02-02 07:05:08 PM  

wee: More than that believe in a god.  Some even believe that this invisible man in the sky will listen to them and do shiat for them.  They live their lives in the context of this imaginary friend advising them.  They give money to people who talk to them about this magical being.

That's far worse than believing in ghosts.


I'm willing to bet there are even more atheists who make snide and rude remarks about the vast majority of the population. I say this as an ignostic, you don't look smart when you say shiat like that, it just makes you look like an ass.
 
2013-02-02 07:07:12 PM  

Bontesla: Bontesla: Zombie DJ: I do. I've studied the Paranormal for over 30 years. I've got a great "laugh" from a cemetery I walked through.
When people ask me to give them proof there's ghosts, I just tell them it's not my job to make you believe.
That's YOUR job. Do your own homework. I do it for fun, not change the World.

I would love to go "ghost hunting" but I've no one to go with. I've had a few dreams from people I've known who died. A few months ago - I had to dream about my cousin. She committed suicide two Easters ago. She wanted me to give her mom a message. It was weird. My dreams are always for other people. Rarely are they for me.

My mom is the same way.

Hell, my aunt (mom's sister) also dreams visits. It's how she found out her husband died in an accident.


Google an da shealladh. It's not exactly the same, but it sounds like you're using a variant.

/I have the more classic you-will-see-this-random-thing-and-it-will-literally-happen, sucks-to-be-you version, but from what I've found there's a few types. Exploring it and the history involved can be fun, if involving a ridiculous amount of research.
 
2013-02-02 07:07:29 PM  

Third_Uncle_Eno: I_dig_ChicksSleep paralysis=99% of ghosts.  The other 1% is cats.
what about a cat with sleep paralysis?


That causes quantum entanglement.
 
2013-02-02 07:08:41 PM  

Third_Uncle_Eno: I_dig_ChicksSleep paralysis=99% of ghosts.  The other 1% is cats.
what about a cat with sleep paralysis?


The Goddess Bast?
 
2013-02-02 07:09:13 PM  
I'm almost afraid to admit that I believe in ghosts. But it's cool if you don't. Can we play nice now?
 
2013-02-02 07:09:56 PM  

GUTSU: wee: More than that believe in a god.  Some even believe that this invisible man in the sky will listen to them and do shiat for them.  They live their lives in the context of this imaginary friend advising them.  They give money to people who talk to them about this magical being.

That's far worse than believing in ghosts.

I'm willing to bet there are even more atheists who make snide and rude remarks about the vast majority of the population. I say this as an ignostic, you don't look smart when you say shiat like that, it just makes you look like an ass.


Here's the difference between us.  I care whether assertions are true.  You care whether an assertion hurts your feelings.
 
2013-02-02 07:11:39 PM  
In after 'There is no God who behaves how I think it should, therefore there is no God.'
 
2013-02-02 07:11:42 PM  

gryf: I'm almost afraid to admit that I believe in ghosts. But it's cool if you don't. Can we play nice now?


No.

In fact, I think we should round up all your kind and put them in camps or reservations. Never allow the disbelievers and believers to mix blood or contact. Eventually we will become two separate people unable to mix our blood. It is only then that peace will be had. So what say you now?

/got nothing
 
2013-02-02 07:14:34 PM  

andyfromfl: In after 'There is no God who behaves how I think it should, therefore there is no God.'


What about "There is no god because the world behaves as though there is no supernatural deity and it's sillypants to believe in something for which there is no evidence."?
 
2013-02-02 07:15:15 PM  

Prank Call of Cthulhu: Tatterdemalian: I don't believe in ghosts as surviving spirits of people whose bodies have died, because they never seem to act appropriately.

If I were a ghost I'd definitely spend all my time in girls' locker rooms. Can ghosts jerk off?


That's what I've always said. If ghosts were real, every girls' locker room would be haunted.
 
2013-02-02 07:15:30 PM  

PsiChick: Bontesla: Bontesla: Zombie DJ: I do. I've studied the Paranormal for over 30 years. I've got a great "laugh" from a cemetery I walked through.
When people ask me to give them proof there's ghosts, I just tell them it's not my job to make you believe.
That's YOUR job. Do your own homework. I do it for fun, not change the World.

I would love to go "ghost hunting" but I've no one to go with. I've had a few dreams from people I've known who died. A few months ago - I had to dream about my cousin. She committed suicide two Easters ago. She wanted me to give her mom a message. It was weird. My dreams are always for other people. Rarely are they for me.

My mom is the same way.

Hell, my aunt (mom's sister) also dreams visits. It's how she found out her husband died in an accident.

Google an da shealladh. It's not exactly the same, but it sounds like you're using a variant.

/I have the more classic you-will-see-this-random-thing-and-it-will-literally-happen, sucks-to-be-you version, but from what I've found there's a few types. Exploring it and the history involved can be fun, if involving a ridiculous amount of research.


You also hear about this with people with death-bed visions (which apparently Steve Jobs possibly had), terminal lucidity with people who have damaged brains, and people who have Near-Death Experiences. They see people who have passed some time ago that they never knew or people who have just died that the person having the experience had no idea just passed. Its pretty crazy stuff.
 
2013-02-02 07:16:30 PM  
...thus explaining why the farce that is the "Ghost Hunters" franchise on SyFy is still on the air, despite the simple fact that they haven't found a single credible ghost in their years of manufactured stupidity.
 
2013-02-02 07:17:34 PM  
It is impossible to know the mind of Ghod.

/But here- take this bible which tells you what he thinks!/
 
2013-02-02 07:18:11 PM  

The Billdozer: PsiChick: Bontesla: Bontesla: Zombie DJ: I do. I've studied the Paranormal for over 30 years. I've got a great "laugh" from a cemetery I walked through.
When people ask me to give them proof there's ghosts, I just tell them it's not my job to make you believe.
That's YOUR job. Do your own homework. I do it for fun, not change the World.

I would love to go "ghost hunting" but I've no one to go with. I've had a few dreams from people I've known who died. A few months ago - I had to dream about my cousin. She committed suicide two Easters ago. She wanted me to give her mom a message. It was weird. My dreams are always for other people. Rarely are they for me.

My mom is the same way.

Hell, my aunt (mom's sister) also dreams visits. It's how she found out her husband died in an accident.

Google an da shealladh. It's not exactly the same, but it sounds like you're using a variant.

/I have the more classic you-will-see-this-random-thing-and-it-will-literally-happen, sucks-to-be-you version, but from what I've found there's a few types. Exploring it and the history involved can be fun, if involving a ridiculous amount of research.

You also hear about this with people with death-bed visions (which apparently Steve Jobs possibly had), terminal lucidity with people who have damaged brains, and people who have Near-Death Experiences. They see people who have passed some time ago that they never knew or people who have just died that the person having the experience had no idea just passed. Its pretty crazy stuff.


Science is fun.  Much more fun than magic.
 
2013-02-02 07:18:56 PM  

fusillade762: Jon iz teh kewl: Prank Call of Cthulhu: Tatterdemalian: I don't believe in ghosts as surviving spirits of people whose bodies have died, because they never seem to act appropriately.

If I were a ghost I'd definitely spend all my time in girls' locker rooms. Can ghosts jerk off?

why would they even want to?  they have no dicks

[becominglayla.com image 423x178]


are you saying a bunch of gay jerks jerked off on what's his name from ghostbusters??
 
2013-02-02 07:19:22 PM  
More people believe in ghosts than aliens.  This is because the majority is predominantly religious and most religions either promote or do not preclude the existince of ghosts.

Personally, I only believe that aliens have ghosts.
 
2013-02-02 07:20:28 PM  

bin_smokin: More people believe in ghosts than aliens.  This is because the majority is predominantly religious and most religions either promote or do not preclude the existince of ghosts.

Personally, I only believe that aliens have ghosts.


Are you a Scientologist?
 
2013-02-02 07:21:51 PM  

gimmegimme: The Billdozer: PsiChick: Bontesla: Bontesla: Zombie DJ: I do. I've studied the Paranormal for over 30 years. I've got a great "laugh" from a cemetery I walked through.
When people ask me to give them proof there's ghosts, I just tell them it's not my job to make you believe.
That's YOUR job. Do your own homework. I do it for fun, not change the World.

I would love to go "ghost hunting" but I've no one to go with. I've had a few dreams from people I've known who died. A few months ago - I had to dream about my cousin. She committed suicide two Easters ago. She wanted me to give her mom a message. It was weird. My dreams are always for other people. Rarely are they for me.

My mom is the same way.

Hell, my aunt (mom's sister) also dreams visits. It's how she found out her husband died in an accident.

Google an da shealladh. It's not exactly the same, but it sounds like you're using a variant.

/I have the more classic you-will-see-this-random-thing-and-it-will-literally-happen, sucks-to-be-you version, but from what I've found there's a few types. Exploring it and the history involved can be fun, if involving a ridiculous amount of research.

You also hear about this with people with death-bed visions (which apparently Steve Jobs possibly had), terminal lucidity with people who have damaged brains, and people who have Near-Death Experiences. They see people who have passed some time ago that they never knew or people who have just died that the person having the experience had no idea just passed. Its pretty crazy stuff.

Science is fun.  Much more fun than magic.


But playing make-believe is so much easier.
 
2013-02-02 07:22:16 PM  

FormlessOne: ...thus explaining why the farce that is the "Ghost Hunters" franchise on SyFy is still on the air, despite the simple fact that they haven't found a single credible ghost in their years of manufactured stupidity.


Darnit, there's a ghost RIGHT HERE.

www.angelsghosts.com
 
2013-02-02 07:24:19 PM  
There goes my belief that Fark had an overwhelmingly rational community.

/Believing in ghosts doesn't mean a person is stupid, just irrational.
 
2013-02-02 07:24:27 PM  

Ed Grubermann: BillCo: Remember folks, everyone who believes in something you don't is a stupid simpleton. Doesn't matter if it's ghost, religion or global warming.  Don't even get me started on aliens.

If you beleive in something that has no evidence and violates the laws of physics and biology, well you're an idiot. Show me the mechanism by which a ghost can exist.


Dark matter!
 
2013-02-02 07:27:30 PM  

dennysgod: I do believe in spooks, I do believe in spooks, I do, I do, I do, I do believe in spooks



www.gotmedieval.com


Beat me to it.
 
2013-02-02 07:32:09 PM  

Maggie_Luna: gryf: I'm almost afraid to admit that I believe in ghosts. But it's cool if you don't. Can we play nice now?

No.

In fact, I think we should round up all your kind and put them in camps or reservations. Never allow the disbelievers and believers to mix blood or contact. Eventually we will become two separate people unable to mix our blood. It is only then that peace will be had. So what say you now?

/got nothing


Had a chuckle.

I AM the product of mixed blood. Started out skeptic, not so much anymore. Does this mean I win?
 
2013-02-02 07:32:39 PM  
I think ghosts are afraid of humans.
 
2013-02-02 07:33:59 PM  

Rufus Lee King: gryf: I'm almost afraid to admit that I believe in ghosts. But it's cool if you don't. Can we play nice now?

What? On FARK? Do not defy the all-knowing FARK hive mind! There is danger ahead if you do!


I've already been concentration camped cuz of it...
 
2013-02-02 07:34:28 PM  

TreeHugger: Like the time two of my friends had very specific dreams about the same event happening to me, a traumatic occurrence that led to my taking a plane flight.  And a week later it happened just as prophesied.  Nothing I had previously told them could possibly have clued them in, and anyway I had no idea that it was coming.  And the details they told me were fulfilled exactly.  You can't explain that!


Last year, I had an incredibly vivid dream in which my father died. In the dream, I was informed by a phone call late at night. I hardly ever remember dreams, but that one I remembered, because it seemed so real. Two nights later, just as we were about to go to bed, the phone rang. Out of nowhere, the thought, "My father is dead" flashed through my head. I answered the phone and, sure enough...

...it was a wrong number. My dad is still alive.

If it had happened the other way, I might have been inclined to believe something supernatural happened.

Coincidences, how do they farking work?
 
2013-02-02 07:34:51 PM  

Rufus Lee King: gimmegimme: Darnit, there's a ghost RIGHT HERE

Yes, indeed. I caught one at our local cemetery:

[i1041.photobucket.com image 320x213]

Tried to make the picture larger, but my computer's possessed, or something.


OMG.  Isn't it weird how ghosts look like lens flare or the reflection of light or a piece of crap on the lens?
 
2013-02-02 07:35:16 PM  
I wish ghosts were real because that would be awesome, but they aren't. I would love to be able to come back and haunt places or just hang out watching TV and stuff with people and basically doing whatever I wanted with no more worries about anything ever. Then again when the earth eventually becomes a dead rock things would be pretty boring and I guess it would also be crowded with all the other ghosts of every other person who existed hanging around. On second thought I guess I wouldn't want to be a ghost after all.
 
2013-02-02 07:35:57 PM  

bin_smokin: More people believe in ghosts than aliens.  This is because the majority is predominantly religious and most religions either promote or do not preclude the existince of ghosts.

Personally, I only believe that aliens have ghosts.


That's the stupidest thing I've ever heard. If aliens had ghosts, why would they bother coming to Earth to steal ours?
 
2013-02-02 07:36:29 PM  

Prank Call of Cthulhu: TreeHugger: Like the time two of my friends had very specific dreams about the same event happening to me, a traumatic occurrence that led to my taking a plane flight.  And a week later it happened just as prophesied.  Nothing I had previously told them could possibly have clued them in, and anyway I had no idea that it was coming.  And the details they told me were fulfilled exactly.  You can't explain that!

Last year, I had an incredibly vivid dream in which my father died. In the dream, I was informed by a phone call late at night. I hardly ever remember dreams, but that one I remembered, because it seemed so real. Two nights later, just as we were about to go to bed, the phone rang. Out of nowhere, the thought, "My father is dead" flashed through my head. I answered the phone and, sure enough...

...it was a wrong number. My dad is still alive.

If it had happened the other way, I might have been inclined to believe something supernatural happened.

Coincidences, how do they farking work?


Dude.  You had a prophecy.  It just hasn't been fulfilled yet.  Just you watch.  Someday in the distant future, your father will die.
 
2013-02-02 07:38:32 PM  

gimmegimme: The Billdozer: PsiChick: Bontesla: Bontesla: Zombie DJ: I do. I've studied the Paranormal for over 30 years. I've got a great "laugh" from a cemetery I walked through.
When people ask me to give them proof there's ghosts, I just tell them it's not my job to make you believe.
That's YOUR job. Do your own homework. I do it for fun, not change the World.

I would love to go "ghost hunting" but I've no one to go with. I've had a few dreams from people I've known who died. A few months ago - I had to dream about my cousin. She committed suicide two Easters ago. She wanted me to give her mom a message. It was weird. My dreams are always for other people. Rarely are they for me.

My mom is the same way.

Hell, my aunt (mom's sister) also dreams visits. It's how she found out her husband died in an accident.

Google an da shealladh. It's not exactly the same, but it sounds like you're using a variant.

/I have the more classic you-will-see-this-random-thing-and-it-will-literally-happen, sucks-to-be-you version, but from what I've found there's a few types. Exploring it and the history involved can be fun, if involving a ridiculous amount of research.

You also hear about this with people with death-bed visions (which apparently Steve Jobs possibly had), terminal lucidity with people who have damaged brains, and people who have Near-Death Experiences. They see people who have passed some time ago that they never knew or people who have just died that the person having the experience had no idea just passed. Its pretty crazy stuff.

Science is fun.  Much more fun than magic.


http://www.skepticalinvestigations.org/Mediaskeptics/vanLommel.html - An early rebuttal to this type of "conclusion". I'd also suggest finding out more about Pim Van Lommel, Sam Parina, Peter Fenwick, and the currently debated experience of Eben Alexander. Just a few of the many doctors and scientists that would whole-heartedly agree with you that science is fun. But you keep being a good "skeptic" who keeps science going strong!
 
2013-02-02 07:39:01 PM  

hawcian: bin_smokin: More people believe in ghosts than aliens.  This is because the majority is predominantly religious and most religions either promote or do not preclude the existince of ghosts.

Personally, I only believe that aliens have ghosts.

That's the stupidest thing I've ever heard. If aliens had ghosts, why would they bother coming to Earth to steal ours?


Well, duh.

krishna.org

75 million years ago, Xenu had an overpopulation problem, so he loaded aliens onto DC-8s and buried them in volcanoes...
 
2013-02-02 07:39:43 PM  
I'm a skeptic when it comes to ghosts, but only a small "s" skeptic. If you believe in ghosts, cool. I went on a ghost tour in St Augustine, it was a lot of fun.

/small "s" because skepticism is good when used for critical thinking and to debunk charlatans and scam-artists, but Skepticism, when used to ridicule or condescend to people deemed intellectually inferior, is ugly and small (see this thread for numerous examples)
 
2013-02-02 07:40:53 PM  

bin_smokin: More people believe in ghosts than aliens.  This is because the majority is predominantly religious and most religions either promote or do not preclude the existince of ghosts.


Well, ghosts go against the idea of there being a heaven or hell, or any kind of god to direct us where to go when we die. The reason more people believe in ghosts than aliens is because of a campaign to condition people to think alien visitation is ridiculous and worthy of ridicule, but no campaign to make them think ghosts are.
 
2013-02-02 07:41:49 PM  
Sooo... When do we start having nice things?
 
2013-02-02 07:42:01 PM  
I can totally get why one can't or won't believe in ghosts given the obviously rational and orderly universe we find ourselves in. :)   But seriously, I totally get why people don't believe if they've never had an experience personally, but all I can say is that once you've HAD one (and I don't suggest seeking it out either) it won't change your life, but you'll never forget it.
 
2013-02-02 07:42:50 PM  
People can believe or not believe whatever they want.  It makes no difference to me.  I know what I've experienced, and I also know there's not a "rational" explanation for it.  If someone wants to think I'm irrational or otherwise mentally deficient because they've not personally experienced the same thing, that's their problem.
 
2013-02-02 07:43:46 PM  

gimmegimme: Prank Call of Cthulhu: TreeHugger: Like the time two of my friends had very specific dreams about the same event happening to me, a traumatic occurrence that led to my taking a plane flight.  And a week later it happened just as prophesied.  Nothing I had previously told them could possibly have clued them in, and anyway I had no idea that it was coming.  And the details they told me were fulfilled exactly.  You can't explain that!

Last year, I had an incredibly vivid dream in which my father died. In the dream, I was informed by a phone call late at night. I hardly ever remember dreams, but that one I remembered, because it seemed so real. Two nights later, just as we were about to go to bed, the phone rang. Out of nowhere, the thought, "My father is dead" flashed through my head. I answered the phone and, sure enough...

...it was a wrong number. My dad is still alive.

If it had happened the other way, I might have been inclined to believe something supernatural happened.

Coincidences, how do they farking work?

Dude.  You had a prophecy.  It just hasn't been fulfilled yet.  Just you watch.  Someday in the distant future, your father will die.


You're a cruel bastard, you know that?
 
2013-02-02 07:46:19 PM  

The Billdozer: gimmegimme: The Billdozer: PsiChick: Bontesla: Bontesla: Zombie DJ: I do. I've studied the Paranormal for over 30 years. I've got a great "laugh" from a cemetery I walked through.
When people ask me to give them proof there's ghosts, I just tell them it's not my job to make you believe.
That's YOUR job. Do your own homework. I do it for fun, not change the World.

I would love to go "ghost hunting" but I've no one to go with. I've had a few dreams from people I've known who died. A few months ago - I had to dream about my cousin. She committed suicide two Easters ago. She wanted me to give her mom a message. It was weird. My dreams are always for other people. Rarely are they for me.

My mom is the same way.

Hell, my aunt (mom's sister) also dreams visits. It's how she found out her husband died in an accident.

Google an da shealladh. It's not exactly the same, but it sounds like you're using a variant.

/I have the more classic you-will-see-this-random-thing-and-it-will-literally-happen, sucks-to-be-you version, but from what I've found there's a few types. Exploring it and the history involved can be fun, if involving a ridiculous amount of research.

You also hear about this with people with death-bed visions (which apparently Steve Jobs possibly had), terminal lucidity with people who have damaged brains, and people who have Near-Death Experiences. They see people who have passed some time ago that they never knew or people who have just died that the person having the experience had no idea just passed. Its pretty crazy stuff.

Science is fun.  Much more fun than magic.

http://www.skepticalinvestigations.org/Mediaskeptics/vanLommel.html - An early rebuttal to this type of "conclusion". I'd also suggest finding out more about Pim Van Lommel, Sam Parina, Peter Fenwick, and the currently debated experience of Eben Alexander. Just a few of the many doctors and scientists that would whole-heartedly agree with you that science is fun. But you keep being a good "sk ...


Sorry, friend.  Those folks are nutcases.

Skepticism is when you refuse to believe in something until you have proof.  Not when you believe in something because there MAY be proof.
 
2013-02-02 07:48:32 PM  

Amos Quito: gimmegimme: Prank Call of Cthulhu: TreeHugger: Like the time two of my friends had very specific dreams about the same event happening to me, a traumatic occurrence that led to my taking a plane flight.  And a week later it happened just as prophesied.  Nothing I had previously told them could possibly have clued them in, and anyway I had no idea that it was coming.  And the details they told me were fulfilled exactly.  You can't explain that!

Last year, I had an incredibly vivid dream in which my father died. In the dream, I was informed by a phone call late at night. I hardly ever remember dreams, but that one I remembered, because it seemed so real. Two nights later, just as we were about to go to bed, the phone rang. Out of nowhere, the thought, "My father is dead" flashed through my head. I answered the phone and, sure enough...

...it was a wrong number. My dad is still alive.

If it had happened the other way, I might have been inclined to believe something supernatural happened.

Coincidences, how do they farking work?

Dude.  You had a prophecy.  It just hasn't been fulfilled yet.  Just you watch.  Someday in the distant future, your father will die.

You're a cruel bastard, you know that?


I can't help it; the spirits bestowed the gift of clairvoyance upon me.
 
2013-02-02 07:50:03 PM  

Elliott1787: St_Francis_P: ecmoRandomNumbers: Don't believe in ghosts, but have seen weird shiat.

I've always wanted to see one, but never have. The strangest thing I've seen is my mom answer the phone before it rang. Twice. Each time it was my brother calling. She claimed she did it all the time. I was seriously wondering if she weighed more than a duck.

She must have very good hearing, old landline phones make a sound just before they ring. It is inaudible to the average person, but many animals can hear it. A friend had a dog that hated the sound of a ringing phone, he learned to knock the phone off the hook when he heard the first sound. I've heard of cats doing the same thing.


I was about to say the same thing. I used to do that when I was a teen and it freaked my family out. There was this little staticky click sound right before it rang. I can also hear old tube TVs if they are left on. My kids will turn off the ps3 but not the TV and I will hear it humming from the next room.
 
2013-02-02 07:52:02 PM  

cgremlin: People can believe or not believe whatever they want.  It makes no difference to me.  I know what I've experienced, and I also know there's not a "rational" explanation for it.  If someone wants to think I'm irrational or otherwise mentally deficient because they've not personally experienced the same thing, that's their problem.


The people who use terms like "magical thinking" and who appeal to "science" (not the method, but some fantastical purveyor of the contents of reality) the loudest, are usually the least learned about the philosophy of skepticism and applied science.
 
2013-02-02 07:52:19 PM  
I'm surprised it's that low. They probably aren't counting all the ones who believe in "the Holy Ghost."
 
2013-02-02 07:53:09 PM  

cgremlin: People can believe or not believe whatever they want.  It makes no difference to me.  I know what I've experienced, and I also know there's not a "rational" explanation for it.  If someone wants to think I'm irrational or otherwise mentally deficient because they've not personally experienced the same thing, that's their problem.



I'm asking in all sincerity here; how do you know there is not a rational explanation for your experience?  What makes you certain of that?

(I do not think you are mentally deficient or irrational.)
 
2013-02-02 07:53:17 PM  
77 percent of adults believe in angels.

46 percent of Americans believe God created humans in their present  form within the last ten thousand years or so

25 percent of Americans with graduate degrees believe dinosaurs and humans romped together before Noah's flood

So your point is what?
 
2013-02-02 07:53:47 PM  

gimmegimme: The Billdozer: gimmegimme: The Billdozer: PsiChick: Bontesla: Bontesla: Zombie DJ: I do. I've studied the Paranormal for over 30 years. I've got a great "laugh" from a cemetery I walked through.
When people ask me to give them proof there's ghosts, I just tell them it's not my job to make you believe.
That's YOUR job. Do your own homework. I do it for fun, not change the World.

I would love to go "ghost hunting" but I've no one to go with. I've had a few dreams from people I've known who died. A few months ago - I had to dream about my cousin. She committed suicide two Easters ago. She wanted me to give her mom a message. It was weird. My dreams are always for other people. Rarely are they for me.

My mom is the same way.

Hell, my aunt (mom's sister) also dreams visits. It's how she found out her husband died in an accident.

Google an da shealladh. It's not exactly the same, but it sounds like you're using a variant.

/I have the more classic you-will-see-this-random-thing-and-it-will-literally-happen, sucks-to-be-you version, but from what I've found there's a few types. Exploring it and the history involved can be fun, if involving a ridiculous amount of research.

You also hear about this with people with death-bed visions (which apparently Steve Jobs possibly had), terminal lucidity with people who have damaged brains, and people who have Near-Death Experiences. They see people who have passed some time ago that they never knew or people who have just died that the person having the experience had no idea just passed. Its pretty crazy stuff.

Science is fun.  Much more fun than magic.

http://www.skepticalinvestigations.org/Mediaskeptics/vanLommel.html - An early rebuttal to this type of "conclusion". I'd also suggest finding out more about Pim Van Lommel, Sam Parina, Peter Fenwick, and the currently debated experience of Eben Alexander. Just a few of the many doctors and scientists that would whole-heartedly agree with you that science is fun. But you keep being a good "sk ...

Sorry, friend.  Those folks are nutcases.

Skepticism is when you refuse to believe in something until you have proof.  Not when you believe in something because there MAY be proof.


That's actually not what skepticism is, but carry on :)
 
2013-02-02 07:53:54 PM  
I grew up with television in the 50's, so yes, I believe in ghosts.
 
2013-02-02 07:56:12 PM  
I love ghost stories.  I love being scared by good ghost stories.  I don't believe in ghosts so I don't understand why I'm afraid of the dark for days after reading / seeing a good story, but there you go.  Ghosts are awesome.
 
2013-02-02 07:56:16 PM  

ecmoRandomNumbers: Don't believe in ghosts, but have seen weird shiat.


Same here. Have never taken it as evidence of anything, as I can't discount that it was a big prank - there were a lot of middle school girls involved.

\Would've been hard to fake, though, back before cheap LED gadgets were available everywhere.
 
2013-02-02 07:58:23 PM  

FloydA: I'm asking in all sincerity here; how do you know there is not a rational explanation for your experience? What makes you certain of that?

(I do not think you are mentally deficient or irrational.)


i0.kym-cdn.com
 
2013-02-02 08:01:18 PM  

gimmegimme: The Billdozer: gimmegimme: The Billdozer: PsiChick: Bontesla: Bontesla: Zombie DJ: I do. I've studied the Paranormal for over 30 years. I've got a great "laugh" from a cemetery I walked through.
When people ask me to give them proof there's ghosts, I just tell them it's not my job to make you believe.
That's YOUR job. Do your own homework. I do it for fun, not change the World.

I would love to go "ghost hunting" but I've no one to go with. I've had a few dreams from people I've known who died. A few months ago - I had to dream about my cousin. She committed suicide two Easters ago. She wanted me to give her mom a message. It was weird. My dreams are always for other people. Rarely are they for me.

My mom is the same way.

Hell, my aunt (mom's sister) also dreams visits. It's how she found out her husband died in an accident.

Google an da shealladh. It's not exactly the same, but it sounds like you're using a variant.

/I have the more classic you-will-see-this-random-thing-and-it-will-literally-happen, sucks-to-be-you version, but from what I've found there's a few types. Exploring it and the history involved can be fun, if involving a ridiculous amount of research.

You also hear about this with people with death-bed visions (which apparently Steve Jobs possibly had), terminal lucidity with people who have damaged brains, and people who have Near-Death Experiences. They see people who have passed some time ago that they never knew or people who have just died that the person having the experience had no idea just passed. Its pretty crazy stuff.

Science is fun.  Much more fun than magic.

http://www.skepticalinvestigations.org/Mediaskeptics/vanLommel.html - An early rebuttal to this type of "conclusion". I'd also suggest finding out more about Pim Van Lommel, Sam Parina, Peter Fenwick, and the currently debated experience of Eben Alexander. Just a few of the many doctors and scientists that would whole-heartedly agree with you that science is fun. But you keep being a good "sk ...

Sorry, friend.  Those folks are nutcases.

Skepticism is when you refuse to believe in something until you have proof.  Not when you believe in something because there MAY be proof.


So respected doctors and scientists in their field who vary from true skeptics to agnostics on the beliefs of psi and mind being separate from brain and other "paranormal" phenomenon to people who studied all the evidence and came to a belief in these phenomenon based on their own research are nutcases. Guess that settles that. Oh and just a tip: your definition of skepticism is so twisted and off the mark that the spectators around the target are scrambling for cover.
 
2013-02-02 08:03:44 PM  
A professor at the Auburn University was giving a lecture on Paranormal Studies.

To get a feel for his audience, he asks,
'How many people here believe in ghosts?'

About 90 students raise their hands.

Well, that's a good start. Out of those who believe in ghosts, do any of you think you have seen a ghost?'

About 40 students raise their hands.

That's really good. I'm really glad you take this seriously. Has anyone here ever talked to a ghost?'

About 15 students raise their hand.

Has anyone here ever touched a ghost?'

Three students raise their hands.

That's fantastic. Now let me ask you one question further...Have any of you ever made love to a ghost?'

Way in the back, Ahmed raises his hand.

The professor takes off his glasses and says 'Son, all the years I've been giving this lecture, no one has ever claimed to have made love to a ghost. You've got to come up here and tell us about your experience.'

The Middle Eastern student replied with a nod and a grin, and began to make his way up to the podium.

When he reached the front of the room, the professor asks, 'So, Ahmed, tell us what it's like to have sex with a ghost?'

Ahmed replied, "Sh**t, from way back there I thought you said Goats."
 
2013-02-02 08:03:59 PM  
Ghosts are projections of our own insecurities and/or desires.  People who don't believe in ghosts are downright ignorant.
 
2013-02-02 08:06:04 PM  

italie: Ed Grubermann: italie: Ed Grubermann: BillCo: Remember folks, everyone who believes in something you don't is a stupid simpleton. Doesn't matter if it's ghost, religion or global warming.  Don't even get me started on aliens.

If you beleive in something that has no evidence and violates the laws of physics and biology, well you're an idiot. Show me the mechanism by which a ghost can exist.

Explain to me how quantum entanglement works, then you can lecture me on how ghosts can't exist.

Explain to me how quantum entanglement has anything to do with dead people. Your wishful thinking is no substitute for an education.

I never said it did, nor did I ever infer my beliefs on ghosts. I just want you to explain quantum entanglement to me.


Why? It is not germane to the discussion and my understanding of it has nothing to do with anything.
 
2013-02-02 08:08:57 PM  

The Billdozer: Ed Grubermann: Tatterdemalian: jigger: BillCo: Remember folks, everyone who believes in something you don't that isn't real is a stupid simpleton

ftfy

Do you believe in wealth, laws, promises? None of those are real.

/this is why atheist ideologies end up just as insane as religious cults
//they believe in things that aren't real, they just try to change the definition of "real" to suit themselves

And this is where you show you're an idiot.

So they are an idiot for saying that the standard stereotypical atheist, when having their "core beliefs" challenged,


No, they are idiots for misrepresenting what Atheism means. It's not some sophistic horseshiat like Tardmedalleon claims it is. It is simply, and ONLY, the lack of a belief in a god. Nothing more. It is not the denial of social constructs or man-made institutions.

TLDR: He constructed a strawman.
 
2013-02-02 08:11:20 PM  
Ghosts do exist, but they are not the dead. Rather, they are evil spirits who exploit people's superstition. The same is true for dreams and so forth about loved ones who've died recently.

There is nothing in Scripture that even remotely supports the idea of the soul remaining on Earth after the death of the body. While the eventual destination of the soul is up for debate, it is safe to say that ghosts are not the soul/spirit/mind of the departed.
 
2013-02-02 08:20:00 PM  

Ed Grubermann: The Billdozer: Ed Grubermann: Tatterdemalian: jigger: BillCo: Remember folks, everyone who believes in something you don't that isn't real is a stupid simpleton

ftfy

Do you believe in wealth, laws, promises? None of those are real.

/this is why atheist ideologies end up just as insane as religious cults
//they believe in things that aren't real, they just try to change the definition of "real" to suit themselves

And this is where you show you're an idiot.

So they are an idiot for saying that the standard stereotypical atheist, when having their "core beliefs" challenged,

No, they are idiots for misrepresenting what Atheism means. It's not some sophistic horseshiat like Tardmedalleon claims it is. It is simply, and ONLY, the lack of a belief in a god. Nothing more. It is not the denial of social constructs or man-made institutions.

TLDR: He constructed a strawman.


And I will admit I went with atheism as the descriptor instead of materialist, which is what is closer to the mark. You can believe in the paranormal and be an atheist. It was just laziness and using a HP Touchpad on my part
 
2013-02-02 08:34:20 PM  
2.bp.blogspot.com
 
2013-02-02 08:35:42 PM  

GUTSU: wee: More than that believe in a god.  Some even believe that this invisible man in the sky will listen to them and do shiat for them.  They live their lives in the context of this imaginary friend advising them.  They give money to people who talk to them about this magical being.

That's far worse than believing in ghosts.

I'm willing to bet there are even more atheists who make snide and rude remarks about the vast majority of the population. I say this as an ignostic, you don't look smart when you say shiat like that, it just makes you look like an ass.


No, it makes him look honest. You must remember that theists  actually are moronsand if stating that fact causes their buttocks to become hurty then that is tough titties. Telling it like it is, is very important in a world filled with bullshiat.
 
2013-02-02 08:38:58 PM  
Ghosts are a silly concept until you come across one. Then they cease in being a silly concept.

CSB: Had a die-hard atheist friend, (he doesn't even believe in luck), comes across a Woman in White ghost. He was driving along Elbow Road in Virginia Beach, Va late at night. The road was one of those stereotypical horror movie roads; out in the boonies, woods on either side, no street lights, lots of twists. He was going down one of those dangerous turns when his headlights fall on a woman in white standing in the middle of the road. He slams his breaks but doesn't quite make it. He hits her only, the car doesn't hit anything. That doesn't prevent him from stopping the car and looking for the damage. His bumper is fine. His hood is fine. For a car hitting something, there is absolutely no damage. Hitting a possum gets more damage. There is also no sign of the woman. There's nothing or no one on the road. He checks the ditches on the side. Nothing. He goes up and down with a flashlight. Nothing. He keeps on looking for almost an hour. Nothing. The woman is simply gone.

With no body and not a speck of evidence to prove he's ever hit anyone, he goes home and watches the news. He looks to see if anyone has found a body on Elbow Road. Nothing.

Fast forward a few years later when I was talking to another friend of ours who believes in ghosts. She is talking about all the local ghosts and one of them is the Woman in White on Elbow Road. Until then, I had not heard of the legend. But at that moment, something clicks and I realize that my friend had hit a ghost with his car, though he dismisses the idea of it. He still laughs at the idea of ghosts. I think it's funny that the one of the guys that I know who has a personal encounter with a ghost is someone who does not believe in them. /end of CSB

/some people don't believe even if they hit proof head on.
 
2013-02-02 08:40:37 PM  

Prank Call of Cthulhu: TreeHugger: Like the time two of my friends had very specific dreams about the same event happening to me, a traumatic occurrence that led to my taking a plane flight.  And a week later it happened just as prophesied.  Nothing I had previously told them could possibly have clued them in, and anyway I had no idea that it was coming.  And the details they told me were fulfilled exactly.  You can't explain that!

Coincidences, how do they farking work?


Okay, to entertain that idea for a second...

- Neither of these 2 people has had dreams about events happening to me, before or since.
- The traumatic incident was when a long-buried secret (about abuse) came to light in my family... I was devastated.  Our family was in turmoil.  I got on the next possible flight back to my hometown, and my two brothers and myself had a meeting with my parents about this.
- Before the dreams and me finding out the secret, I rarely spoke of my family, never spoke to them, and definitely never spoke to these 2 friends about flying there to visit them.
- Both friends had their dreams a week before the family secret came out, possibly the same night.  None of my family knew the secret at that point (except one person, with whom I was not in contact.)
- In the first friend's dream, I was sitting in a room with my 2 brothers, and my parents, having a serious meeting.  My other siblings were not there, so the attendance and tone matched what happened.  There were some other details which matched also, can't remember now but I have it all written down.
- The second friend's dream:  I came to her house very upset, asked to come in.  I told her something terrible had happened regarding my family, and that I was going to catch the next plane to see them.  I asked to sleep on her couch until it was time for my flight.  So I slept there briefly, woke up and told her I had to leave for the airport.  (This reminds me of the concept of astral travel... what if I somehow psychically visited her while we were both asleep?)

The 2nd friend suggested that I had precognition of what was about to happen, a week earlier, and somehow communicated it to both of them via dreams.  Anyway you can just write it off as a coincidence, if it makes you feel superior, or preserves your worldview.  I don't know what it was, but if something like this were to happen to you, I doubt you'd be so dismissive.
 
2013-02-02 08:41:05 PM  
On behalf of 55% of the population: hahahahahahahahahahahahahaaaaahahahahahahahahahahaha
 
2013-02-02 08:46:44 PM  

mekki: Ghosts are a silly concept until you come across one. Then they cease in being a silly concept.

CSB: Had a die-hard atheist friend, (he doesn't even believe in luck), comes across a Woman in White ghost. He was driving along Elbow Road in Virginia Beach, Va late at night. The road was one of those stereotypical horror movie roads; out in the boonies, woods on either side, no street lights, lots of twists. He was going down one of those dangerous turns when his headlights fall on a woman in white standing in the middle of the road. He slams his breaks but doesn't quite make it. He hits her only, the car doesn't hit anything. That doesn't prevent him from stopping the car and looking for the damage. His bumper is fine. His hood is fine. For a car hitting something, there is absolutely no damage. Hitting a possum gets more damage. There is also no sign of the woman. There's nothing or no one on the road. He checks the ditches on the side. Nothing. He goes up and down with a flashlight. Nothing. He keeps on looking for almost an hour. Nothing. The woman is simply gone.

With no body and not a speck of evidence to prove he's ever hit anyone, he goes home and watches the news. He looks to see if anyone has found a body on Elbow Road. Nothing.

Fast forward a few years later when I was talking to another friend of ours who believes in ghosts. She is talking about all the local ghosts and one of them is the Woman in White on Elbow Road. Until then, I had not heard of the legend. But at that moment, something clicks and I realize that my friend had hit a ghost with his car, though he dismisses the idea of it. He still laughs at the idea of ghosts. I think it's funny that the one of the guys that I know who has a personal encounter with a ghost is someone who does not believe in them. /end of CSB

/some people don't believe even if they hit proof head on.


I have a firm and unshakable belief in the existence of smoke, mist, fog, water vapor, the exhaust fumes from the vehicle ahead of me, so-called "highway hypnosis," and even hallucinations due to driving while tired.  Any one of those could explain your friend's experience.

The leap from "I don't know what it is" to "it must be supernatural" is not a logical or necessary one.
 
2013-02-02 08:46:51 PM  
No no, this is the reason we can't get good ectoplasm samples.
 
2013-02-02 08:50:13 PM  
news.medill.northwestern.edu

Looks like at least 83% to me.
 
2013-02-02 08:55:42 PM  

Rufus Lee King: How is everyone so sure that there aren't ghosts?


Same way they're sure there isn't a god. Two hundred years ago if you said all matter was made of tiny particles, and that we could harness these particles to provide energy and a host of other things, you'd be laughed out of existence.

It makes me both sad and astounded that people are so sure that ghosts, god, whatever doesn't exist that they use it to belittle and browbeat anyone who isn't like them.

It also makes me sad and angry that we as a human race simply cannot get by unless we're tearing each other down over our differences of opinion and personal experience.

Don't believe in something? Fine. But it's none of your goddamn business not do you have the right to judge others who believe differently than you do.
 
2013-02-02 09:00:54 PM  
I have never seen a ghost, nor do I believe in them. But I experienced some very weird shiat living in Thailand on more than one occasion (sober, daylight, etc.), including object flying around in a room.
 
2013-02-02 09:01:15 PM  

Ivan Tudor C McHock: GUTSU: wee: More than that believe in a god.  Some even believe that this invisible man in the sky will listen to them and do shiat for them.  They live their lives in the context of this imaginary friend advising them.  They give money to people who talk to them about this magical being.

That's far worse than believing in ghosts.

I'm willing to bet there are even more atheists who make snide and rude remarks about the vast majority of the population. I say this as an ignostic, you don't look smart when you say shiat like that, it just makes you look like an ass.

No, it makes him look honest. You must remember that theists  actually are moronsand if stating that fact causes their buttocks to become hurty then that is tough titties. Telling it like it is, is very important in a world filled with bullshiat.


And why are they morons? Because you think it's silly to believe in something not yet proven? Fine, string theorists and half of quantum physicists are also complete morons, believing in something that doesn't exist.
 
2013-02-02 09:02:40 PM  

ecmoRandomNumbers: Don't believe in ghosts, but have seen weird shiat.


Years ago, my father woke up crying.  Then my mother said he was talking to someone he couldn't see.  After about a minute, he said, "Okay, Pop.  Love you, too."  Seconds later, the phone rang.  It was my aunt calling to say my grandfather had just passed.

My father, a former NYPD officer and most definitely NOT prone to fantasies, swore he saw he was talking to the spirit of his father that night.
 
2013-02-02 09:04:09 PM  

Kit Fister: Two hundred years ago if you said all matter was made of tiny particles, and that we could harness these particles to provide energy and a host of other things, you'd be laughed out of existence.


www.iep.utm.edu

Gottfried Leibniz (1646-1716) would love a word with you.
 
2013-02-02 09:04:26 PM  
St_Francis_P : I assume that sucubbi don't wear clothes, since that would be counter-productive.

Aren't succubi demons, not ghosts :P
 
2013-02-02 09:08:12 PM  
My job is not to care about those 45 percent

redgreenandblue.org

/voted for the guy, but too easy
 
2013-02-02 09:08:50 PM  
My cousin in-laws' family was on CNN, a year and a half ago I believe, because they thought thier deceased son (cousin in-laws' brother) was communicating with them from beyond the grave via e-mail. Our side of the family does not talk about it... in front of them. Most people can't cope with reality it seems.
 
2013-02-02 09:09:00 PM  
Kit Fister: Two hundred years ago if you said all matter was made of tiny particles, and that we could harness these particles to provide energy and a host of other things, you'd be laughed out of existence.

And it would have been religious folks doing the laughing. The thing is though, the people claiming all matter was made of tiny particles had some proof.

Whereas those other folks have burned toast, stained cloth and damp freeway underpasses as "proof".
 
2013-02-02 09:09:36 PM  
Where I used to live there was an old iron ore mine back in the woods, that rumor had it was haunted. A few friends and I went there one night and we indeed heard an inexplicable sound coming from deep within the mine. A few nights later we returned with a large spool of string to use so we could find our way out. After working up the courage we crept into the mine armed only with some flashlights, glow sticks and the aforementioned spool of string.

Turns out it was only a dragon.
 
2013-02-02 09:09:36 PM  

italie: Explain to me how quantum entanglement works, then you can lecture me on how ghosts can't exist.


Quantum entanglement is pretty simple, really. Particles that have interacted can have quantum superpositions linked in such a way that, even at a distance, measuring the quantum state of one particle causes the probability wave function of the other to collapse.

Ghosts may exist. Russell's teapot may exist. Invisible pink unicorns may exist. The Flying Spaghetti Monster may exist.

Present me with compelling physical evidence of any of those, in an experiment that can be easily replicated that delivers statistically significant results, and I will accept that they're real.

/The problem that many have today is that their mind is so open that it dribbles out of their ears.
 
2013-02-02 09:15:16 PM  
People who don't believe in spiritual stuff can be even more obnoxious about it than people who do believe in spiritual stuff.

This thread, proof.
 
2013-02-02 09:17:06 PM  
Boy are people stupid.
 
2013-02-02 09:20:09 PM  
 That's actually not what skepticism is, but carry on :)

To be fair, we can all define words differently.  I am just saying that the poster in question is grasping for straws.  If "psi" and other horse puckey existed, it would stand up to scientific inquiry.  It hasn't done so in thousands of years of trying.  How long are we supposed to pretend that ghosts could be real when there has been zero rational verification?


Kit Fister: Ivan Tudor C McHock: GUTSU: wee: More than that believe in a god.  Some even believe that this invisible man in the sky will listen to them and do shiat for them.  They live their lives in the context of this imaginary friend advising them.  They give money to people who talk to them about this magical being.

That's far worse than believing in ghosts.

I'm willing to bet there are even more atheists who make snide and rude remarks about the vast majority of the population. I say this as an ignostic, you don't look smart when you say shiat like that, it just makes you look like an ass.

No, it makes him look honest. You must remember that theists  actually are moronsand if stating that fact causes their buttocks to become hurty then that is tough titties. Telling it like it is, is very important in a world filled with bullshiat.

And why are they morons? Because you think it's silly to believe in something not yet proven? Fine, string theorists and half of quantum physicists are also complete morons, believing in something that doesn't exist.


Yes, there is no difference between ghosts and a magic man in the sky and reasoned theories about subatomic particles that have been subjected to peer review.
 
2013-02-02 09:21:28 PM  

cgremlin: People can believe or not believe whatever they want.  It makes no difference to me.  I know what I've experienced, and I also know there's not a "rational" explanation for it.  If someone wants to think I'm irrational or otherwise mentally deficient because they've not personally experienced the same thing, that's their problem.


I don't think anyone would tell you that you didn't have your "experience", but rather your interpretation of said experience is likely flawed.  The human brain just isn't all that reliable.

Tatterdemalian: Do you believe in wealth, laws, promises? None of those are real.


You're just confusing physical and real. Concepts, like laws, are useful abstractions, but they don't have physical forms.  The concept of a ghost is real (we understand the meaning and can explain it to others), but the "physical" manifestation is not.
 
2013-02-02 09:30:32 PM  

Kit Fister: Ivan Tudor C McHock: GUTSU: wee: More than that believe in a god.  Some even believe that this invisible man in the sky will listen to them and do shiat for them.  They live their lives in the context of this imaginary friend advising them.  They give money to people who talk to them about this magical being.

That's far worse than believing in ghosts.

I'm willing to bet there are even more atheists who make snide and rude remarks about the vast majority of the population. I say this as an ignostic, you don't look smart when you say shiat like that, it just makes you look like an ass.

No, it makes him look honest. You must remember that theists  actually are moronsand if stating that fact causes their buttocks to become hurty then that is tough titties. Telling it like it is, is very important in a world filled with bullshiat.

And why are they morons? Because you think it's silly to believe in something not yet proven? Fine, string theorists and half of quantum physicists are also complete morons, believing in something that doesn't exist.

They are morons not only because they believe in a hugely ridiculous story (magic poof zapping up a universe with a magic wand), not only because there is precisely zero evidence to support their belief, not only because their infallible holy book is riddled with absurdities and factual errors, but also because  their god of choice, among the thousands of gods invented, is almost always due to the mere chance of their birthplace. Had they been born in another country, or in a different era, they would barrack for an entirely different god and they would be just as grimly certain that their god was the One True God.

That, and about thirty thousand other reasons, is why they are morons.

 
2013-02-02 09:30:49 PM  

St_Francis_P: It is one of the more harmless beliefs. Not many people have been killed over ghosts, nor does belief in ghosts trash the political process.


Here's the truth about ghosts... everyone has one, but most of the time they pass harmlessly away into the afterlife.  However, that's only when a human dies slowly, where their subconscious has a chance to come to grips with what is happening to them.  When they die quickly - such as when someone is shot in the head - their subconscious rips itself apart from their physical bodies.  Now, they're actually quite invisible, but because a person's subconscious imprints itself on others around it just as much as their actions, their physical form, and so on, sometimes people will "see" the ghost.  It's actually just their own subconscious creating the illusion of the person being there.

Now, unfortunately, these ghosts can't dissipate until they can be made to understand their nature, and, of course, that can't happen under any normal circumstances because they lack the conscious, corporeal brain with which to process information.  They float on through the world aimlessly, interacting only when they recognize something and react to it on instinct.  This is why they sometimes turn chairs in the middle of the night - because they have sat in that spot (even if not that chair) countless times before.

Because it's so hard to make ghosts dissipate, the world is rather full of them, and getting more crowded every day.  For millions of years, ghosts didn't appear because death happened slowly - but as technology has improved, so has our ability to snuff out the body's physical processes quickly enough to create a disembodied spirit.  This is why ghost sightings are increasingly common - and will continue to be.  If ghosts keep appearing unmitigated, they might eventually cause birth rates to drop completely - when a ghost is present, the incoming soul of the newborn cannot find its home, and the child dies, the child spirit is unable to become carnate.

We desperately need to slow the rate of spirit emissions before global carnate change occurs.  To do so, we must ban all gun sales immediately!
 
2013-02-02 09:33:04 PM  
i suggest a trip to Waverly Hills in Louisville, Ky. I was patted on the head several times last time i was there. Yes, i have always believed in ghosts, but i was convinced that the tours at Waverly were a bit enhanced because there were always shadow people in one particular hall.  wasn't sure how they did it but didnt think it was all real. So i walked down the hall alone, and felt  head being patted and rubbed many times.  it wasn't all that creepy, it was sort of a comforting pat, maybe the ghost of a long dead nurse from Waverly, or the geriatric hospital that operated there afterwards.
my dad's house is haunted. It rearranges  things, walks up and  the  stairs. (the ghost, not the house). My friends and I have encountered several unexplained events at a nearby abandoned factory. Those were more space memories than intelligent spirits though.
 
2013-02-02 09:33:13 PM  

TreeHugger: Okay, to entertain that idea for a second...

- Neither of these 2 people has had dreams about events happening to me, before or since.


How do we know this? Maybe they have, but they were too mundane or too ridiculous to mention to you. Selection bias at work again. Both had dreams that hit that sweet spot between totally innocuous, but not completely outlandish.

- Before the dreams and me finding out the secret, I rarely spoke of my family, never spoke to them, and definitely never spoke to these 2 friends about flying there to visit them.

Where do you live in relation to your parents? If they're farther than a car trip away, then the airplane flight isn't significant. It's not two amazing things (They dreamed something bad happened to my parents! AND they dreamed I got on an airplane.).

- The second friend's dream:  I came to her house very upset, asked to come in.  I told her something terrible had happened regarding my family, and that I was going to catch the next plane to see them.  I asked to sleep on her couch until it was time for my flight.  So I slept there briefly, woke up and told her I had to leave for the airport.  (This reminds me of the concept of astral travel... what if I somehow psychically visited her while we were both asleep?)

But presumably this didn't happen in real life, right? You didn't stop to see the friend on the way? Not sure how that's particularly amazing.

Here's what we're left with. At some point in the past, two friends had dreams in close proximity with each other that something serious happened with your family. Since most of us go visit our families when that happens, and since most of the time air travel is the fastest way to accomplish that, the visiting by airplane part isn't compelling at all. Both had these dreams some number of days prior to the event. As someone else pointed out, some day, my father will die. Probably years from now. Does that mean the dream I had was prophetic? Where do I set the discriminator level for prophetic? If the dreams were a month before would it be as amazing? A year? A decade? Also, did the friends tell you about the dreams before or after the event? If after, color me even more skeptical about the veracity of their memories. Also, how long ago was this? How many details are you misremembering? Maybe the stories they originally told had different details, and you're keying only on the ones that fit the experience. This story doesn't sound particularly amazing. Also, there's 300 million people in the country, so even very improbable coincidences will happen to someone.

I just don't find this story very compelling. To you it is. Like I said, if my dad had, coincidentally died, I would have found my dream significant. But he didn't. Most of us forget the mundane non-coincidences and remember only the significant coincidences, and then ascribe some mysticism to them. We're built to see patterns even when none are there.

Anyway you can just write it off as a coincidence, if it makes you feel superior, or preserves your worldview.

It doesn't make me feel superior. Just immune to a large array of scams. I know precognition is impossible. That's why I don't waste money on fortune tellers and scams and other newage junk.
 
2013-02-02 09:33:27 PM  
A guy I grew up with is a "ghost hunter." From what I understand, he and a couple of his friends go around to abandoned buildings and explore them in search of ghosts. I'm not quite sure what they plan on doing with one if they ever find one, but I know that if he ever invited me along it would only be once, because I would spend the whole time shouting variations of, "Reeeelp! Raggy! It's a rooky roast!" and "Lookout, it's a g-g-g-ghost!"
 
2013-02-02 09:34:17 PM  

Kit Fister: Two hundred years ago if you said all matter was made of tiny particles, and that we could harness these particles to provide energy and a host of other things, you'd be laughed out of existence.

It makes me both sad and astounded that people are so sure that ghosts, god, whatever doesn't exist that they use it to belittle and browbeat anyone who isn't like them.


You know what makes me sad?  Folks who don't understand WHY popular and scientific opinion about the existence of sub atomic particles moved from "that's ridiculous" to "well, duh".  Evidence is the reason.  When there is no evidence for your pet hypothesis and mountains of evidence against it then it's irrational to continue to believe in it.  Folks who do think ghosts exist should, by all means, test their beliefs, but they shouldn't assert ghosts exist without good evidence.

You know what else makes me sad? Comparing the state of science 200 years ago to a topic today.  We understand the underlying physics of the "everyday" world incredibly well now and that, obviously, wasn't the case 200 years ago.  Overturning conventional science (ex. ghosts exist) today would take some truly phenomenal new evidence.  The same could not be said of overturning conventional science 200 years ago.
 
2013-02-02 09:34:20 PM  

reillan: St_Francis_P: It is one of the more harmless beliefs. Not many people have been killed over ghosts, nor does belief in ghosts trash the political process.

Here's the truth about ghosts... everyone has one, but most of the time they pass harmlessly away into the afterlife.  However, that's only when a human dies slowly, where their subconscious has a chance to come to grips with what is happening to them.  When they die quickly - such as when someone is shot in the head - their subconscious rips itself apart from their physical bodies.  Now, they're actually quite invisible, but because a person's subconscious imprints itself on others around it just as much as their actions, their physical form, and so on, sometimes people will "see" the ghost.  It's actually just their own subconscious creating the illusion of the person being there.

Now, unfortunately, these ghosts can't dissipate until they can be made to understand their nature, and, of course, that can't happen under any normal circumstances because they lack the conscious, corporeal brain with which to process information.  They float on through the world aimlessly, interacting only when they recognize something and react to it on instinct.  This is why they sometimes turn chairs in the middle of the night - because they have sat in that spot (even if not that chair) countless times before.

Because it's so hard to make ghosts dissipate, the world is rather full of them, and getting more crowded every day.  For millions of years, ghosts didn't appear because death happened slowly - but as technology has improved, so has our ability to snuff out the body's physical processes quickly enough to create a disembodied spirit.  This is why ghost sightings are increasingly common - and will continue to be.  If ghosts keep appearing unmitigated, they might eventually cause birth rates to drop completely - when a ghost is present, the incoming soul of the newborn cannot find its home, and the child dies, the child spi ...


static.guim.co.uk


EXACTLY!
 
2013-02-02 09:37:09 PM  

reillan: St_Francis_P: It is one of the more harmless beliefs. Not many people have been killed over ghosts, nor does belief in ghosts trash the political process.

Here's the truth about ghosts... everyone has one, but most of the time they pass harmlessly away into the afterlife.  However, that's only when a human dies slowly, where their subconscious has a chance to come to grips with what is happening to them.  When they die quickly - such as when someone is shot in the head - their subconscious rips itself apart from their physical bodies.  Now, they're actually quite invisible, but because a person's subconscious imprints itself on others around it just as much as their actions, their physical form, and so on, sometimes people will "see" the ghost.  It's actually just their own subconscious creating the illusion of the person being there.

Now, unfortunately, these ghosts can't dissipate until they can be made to understand their nature, and, of course, that can't happen under any normal circumstances because they lack the conscious, corporeal brain with which to process information.  They float on through the world aimlessly, interacting only when they recognize something and react to it on instinct.  This is why they sometimes turn chairs in the middle of the night - because they have sat in that spot (even if not that chair) countless times before.

Because it's so hard to make ghosts dissipate, the world is rather full of them, and getting more crowded every day.  For millions of years, ghosts didn't appear because death happened slowly - but as technology has improved, so has our ability to snuff out the body's physical processes quickly enough to create a disembodied spirit.  This is why ghost sightings are increasingly common - and will continue to be.  If ghosts keep appearing unmitigated, they might eventually cause birth rates to drop completely - when a ghost is present, the incoming soul of the newborn cannot find its home, and the child dies, the child spirit is unable to become carnate.

We desperately need to slow the rate of spirit emissions before global carnate change occurs.  To do so, we must ban all gun sales immediately!


Worthy of pocket ninja
 
2013-02-02 09:38:50 PM  

Kit Fister: Worthy of pocket ninja

High praise, sir.  Much appreciated.
 
2013-02-02 09:39:38 PM  

QueenMamaBee: i suggest a trip to Waverly Hills in Louisville, Ky. I was patted on the head several times last time i was there. Yes, i have always believed in ghosts, but i was convinced that the tours at Waverly were a bit enhanced because there were always shadow people in one particular hall.  wasn't sure how they did it but didnt think it was all real. So i walked down the hall alone, and felt  head being patted and rubbed many times.  it wasn't all that creepy, it was sort of a comforting pat, maybe the ghost of a long dead nurse from Waverly, or the geriatric hospital that operated there afterwards.
my dad's house is haunted. It rearranges  things, walks up and  the  stairs. (the ghost, not the house). My friends and I have encountered several unexplained events at a nearby abandoned factory. Those were more space memories than intelligent spirits though.


What a coincidence.  Every time I went near this abandoned barn on a farm near my grandfather's home, I felt the spirit of a gay ghost trying to make love to me in my behind.  We should join a support group.
 
2013-02-02 09:40:32 PM  

Flying Code Monkey: People who don't believe in spiritual stuff can be even more obnoxious about it than people who do believe in spiritual stuff.

This thread, proof.


I found it goes like this.

Least to most:

1. People who don't believe in things without evidence who mostly ignore the, let us call them 'fanciful thinkers'.

2. Fanciful thinkers who accept the sound logic that nobody else believes them for good reason.

3. Fanciful thinkers who expect others to take what is most likely their imaginations at face value.

3. The non believers who never shut up about it (not the same as people making a post or two in a thread on the topic).

4. Fancifuls who think they have some kind of superior open mind because they have active imaginations.

5. Idiots who found a way to feel superior to both groups by condescending to the fancifuls while playing a stupid game of what-ifs and piss-poor analogies.
 
2013-02-02 09:41:31 PM  

Baryogenesis: Kit Fister: Two hundred years ago if you said all matter was made of tiny particles, and that we could harness these particles to provide energy and a host of other things, you'd be laughed out of existence.

It makes me both sad and astounded that people are so sure that ghosts, god, whatever doesn't exist that they use it to belittle and browbeat anyone who isn't like them.

You know what makes me sad?  Folks who don't understand WHY popular and scientific opinion about the existence of sub atomic particles moved from "that's ridiculous" to "well, duh".  Evidence is the reason.  When there is no evidence for your pet hypothesis and mountains of evidence against it then it's irrational to continue to believe in it.  Folks who do think ghosts exist should, by all means, test their beliefs, but they shouldn't assert ghosts exist without good evidence.

You know what else makes me sad? Comparing the state of science 200 years ago to a topic today.  We understand the underlying physics of the "everyday" world incredibly well now and that, obviously, wasn't the case 200 years ago.  Overturning conventional science (ex. ghosts exist) today would take some truly phenomenal new evidence.  The same could not be said of overturning conventional science 200 years ago.


So we should all want to be just like you, unable to conceive of things larger than what science can prove?
 
2013-02-02 09:45:07 PM  

gimmegimme: QueenMamaBee: i suggest a trip to Waverly Hills in Louisville, Ky. I was patted on the head several times last time i was there. Yes, i have always believed in ghosts, but i was convinced that the tours at Waverly were a bit enhanced because there were always shadow people in one particular hall.  wasn't sure how they did it but didnt think it was all real. So i walked down the hall alone, and felt  head being patted and rubbed many times.  it wasn't all that creepy, it was sort of a comforting pat, maybe the ghost of a long dead nurse from Waverly, or the geriatric hospital that operated there afterwards.
my dad's house is haunted. It rearranges  things, walks up and  the  stairs. (the ghost, not the house). My friends and I have encountered several unexplained events at a nearby abandoned factory. Those were more space memories than intelligent spirits though.

What a coincidence.  Every time I went near this abandoned barn on a farm near my grandfather's home, I felt the spirit of a gay ghost trying to make love to me in my behind.  We should join a support group.


that was your grandfather's neighbor, not a ghost
 
2013-02-02 09:45:52 PM  

Prank Call of Cthulhu: did the friends tell you about the dreams before or after the event?


Before.  And I'm not misremembering any of this... It didn't happen very long ago.  Anyhow, no scientific evidence to hand you, it's just another whisper in the wind, another story in a world of billions... I've seen many more compelling supernatural stories than this, they just didn't happen to me personally.

/must...not...say ... "it is what it is"
//argh i said it
 
2013-02-02 09:50:57 PM  

TreeHugger: Prank Call of Cthulhu: did the friends tell you about the dreams before or after the event?

Before.  And I'm not misremembering any of this... It didn't happen very long ago.  Anyhow, no scientific evidence to hand you, it's just another whisper in the wind, another story in a world of billions... I've seen many more compelling supernatural stories than this, they just didn't happen to me personally.

/must...not...say ... "it is what it is"
//argh i said it


I dreamed that a friend's child would die a month and a half before it happened. :(
 
2013-02-02 09:51:26 PM  

Kit Fister: Baryogenesis: Kit Fister: Two hundred years ago if you said all matter was made of tiny particles, and that we could harness these particles to provide energy and a host of other things, you'd be laughed out of existence.

It makes me both sad and astounded that people are so sure that ghosts, god, whatever doesn't exist that they use it to belittle and browbeat anyone who isn't like them.

You know what makes me sad?  Folks who don't understand WHY popular and scientific opinion about the existence of sub atomic particles moved from "that's ridiculous" to "well, duh".  Evidence is the reason.  When there is no evidence for your pet hypothesis and mountains of evidence against it then it's irrational to continue to believe in it.  Folks who do think ghosts exist should, by all means, test their beliefs, but they shouldn't assert ghosts exist without good evidence.

You know what else makes me sad? Comparing the state of science 200 years ago to a topic today.  We understand the underlying physics of the "everyday" world incredibly well now and that, obviously, wasn't the case 200 years ago.  Overturning conventional science (ex. ghosts exist) today would take some truly phenomenal new evidence.  The same could not be said of overturning conventional science 200 years ago.

So we should all want to be just like you, unable to conceive of things larger than what science can prove?


If you provide proof to support your belief, I'll be happy to agree with you.  Why haven't ghosts been proven in thousands of years of trying?  More importantly, why do you believe things for which there are no proof?
 
2013-02-02 09:53:30 PM  

Kit Fister: TreeHugger: Prank Call of Cthulhu: did the friends tell you about the dreams before or after the event?

Before.  And I'm not misremembering any of this... It didn't happen very long ago.  Anyhow, no scientific evidence to hand you, it's just another whisper in the wind, another story in a world of billions... I've seen many more compelling supernatural stories than this, they just didn't happen to me personally.

/must...not...say ... "it is what it is"
//argh i said it

I dreamed that a friend's child would die a month and a half before it happened. :(


Getting emotional doesn't help your case.
 
2013-02-02 09:55:06 PM  

Kit Fister: Baryogenesis: Kit Fister: Two hundred years ago if you said all matter was made of tiny particles, and that we could harness these particles to provide energy and a host of other things, you'd be laughed out of existence.

It makes me both sad and astounded that people are so sure that ghosts, god, whatever doesn't exist that they use it to belittle and browbeat anyone who isn't like them.

You know what makes me sad?  Folks who don't understand WHY popular and scientific opinion about the existence of sub atomic particles moved from "that's ridiculous" to "well, duh".  Evidence is the reason.  When there is no evidence for your pet hypothesis and mountains of evidence against it then it's irrational to continue to believe in it.  Folks who do think ghosts exist should, by all means, test their beliefs, but they shouldn't assert ghosts exist without good evidence.

You know what else makes me sad? Comparing the state of science 200 years ago to a topic today.  We understand the underlying physics of the "everyday" world incredibly well now and that, obviously, wasn't the case 200 years ago.  Overturning conventional science (ex. ghosts exist) today would take some truly phenomenal new evidence.  The same could not be said of overturning conventional science 200 years ago.

So we should all want to be just like you, unable to conceive of things larger than what science can prove?


Conceive of absolutely anything you like. But if you conceive of it in the absence of evidence, and you go public with the shiat you have made up, then thinking people will call you an idiot or a fraud.
 
2013-02-02 09:56:59 PM  

Kit Fister: TreeHugger: Prank Call of Cthulhu: did the friends tell you about the dreams before or after the event?

Before.  And I'm not misremembering any of this... It didn't happen very long ago.  Anyhow, no scientific evidence to hand you, it's just another whisper in the wind, another story in a world of billions... I've seen many more compelling supernatural stories than this, they just didn't happen to me personally.

/must...not...say ... "it is what it is"
//argh i said it

I dreamed that a friend's child would die a month and a half before it happened. :(


That's strange.  I dreamed last night about making sweet love to Kristen Bell.  (True story.)  Are you saying that will happen?
 
2013-02-02 10:00:42 PM  

gimmegimme: Kit Fister: TreeHugger: Prank Call of Cthulhu: did the friends tell you about the dreams before or after the event?

Before.  And I'm not misremembering any of this... It didn't happen very long ago.  Anyhow, no scientific evidence to hand you, it's just another whisper in the wind, another story in a world of billions... I've seen many more compelling supernatural stories than this, they just didn't happen to me personally.

/must...not...say ... "it is what it is"
//argh i said it

I dreamed that a friend's child would die a month and a half before it happened. :(

That's strange.  I dreamed last night about making sweet love to Kristen Bell.  (True story.)  Are you saying that will happen?


Only if you first provide Catherine bell to me. In her Charlies.
 
2013-02-02 10:01:42 PM  
I ain't 'fraid a no ghost.
 
2013-02-02 10:04:01 PM  

gimmegimme: Kit Fister: Baryogenesis: Kit Fister: Two hundred years ago if you said all matter was made of tiny particles, and that we could harness these particles to provide energy and a host of other things, you'd be laughed out of existence.

It makes me both sad and astounded that people are so sure that ghosts, god, whatever doesn't exist that they use it to belittle and browbeat anyone who isn't like them.

You know what makes me sad?  Folks who don't understand WHY popular and scientific opinion about the existence of sub atomic particles moved from "that's ridiculous" to "well, duh".  Evidence is the reason.  When there is no evidence for your pet hypothesis and mountains of evidence against it then it's irrational to continue to believe in it.  Folks who do think ghosts exist should, by all means, test their beliefs, but they shouldn't assert ghosts exist without good evidence.

You know what else makes me sad? Comparing the state of science 200 years ago to a topic today.  We understand the underlying physics of the "everyday" world incredibly well now and that, obviously, wasn't the case 200 years ago.  Overturning conventional science (ex. ghosts exist) today would take some truly phenomenal new evidence.  The same could not be said of overturning conventional science 200 years ago.

So we should all want to be just like you, unable to conceive of things larger than what science can prove?

If you provide proof to support your belief, I'll be happy to agree with you.  Why haven't ghosts been proven in thousands of years of trying?  More importantly, why do you believe things for which there are no proof?


Regarding the last sentence, it could be explained by Bullshiat Deprivation Syndrome. I have noticed that people who were brainwashed as children to be theists but have grown up, realised they were duped and become atheists are prone to swallowing other forms of bullshiat.

 A friend of mine was brought up catholic, saw the light and became atheist, and then proceeded to swallow every other form of bullshiat that crossed his path from ponzi schemes to reiki to racehorse-tipping software. All this with a tertiary degree and a 142 IQ.
 
2013-02-02 10:07:04 PM  

Kit Fister: gimmegimme: Kit Fister: TreeHugger: Prank Call of Cthulhu: did the friends tell you about the dreams before or after the event?

Before.  And I'm not misremembering any of this... It didn't happen very long ago.  Anyhow, no scientific evidence to hand you, it's just another whisper in the wind, another story in a world of billions... I've seen many more compelling supernatural stories than this, they just didn't happen to me personally.

/must...not...say ... "it is what it is"
//argh i said it

I dreamed that a friend's child would die a month and a half before it happened. :(

That's strange.  I dreamed last night about making sweet love to Kristen Bell.  (True story.)  Are you saying that will happen?

Only if you first provide Catherine bell to me. In her Charlies.


She's a Scientologist.  You are welcome to her if you like.

Ivan Tudor C McHock: Regarding the last sentence, it could be explained by Bullshiat Deprivation Syndrome. I have noticed that people who were brainwashed as children to be theists but have grown up, realised they were duped and become atheists are prone to swallowing other forms of bullshiat.

 A friend of mine was brought up catholic, saw the light and became atheist, and then proceeded to swallow every other form of bullshiat that crossed his path from ponzi schemes to reiki to racehorse-tipping software. All this with a tertiary degree and a 142 IQ.


Ew.  I'm sorry.
 
2013-02-02 10:07:25 PM  

Kit Fister: Baryogenesis: So we should all want to be just like you, unable to conceive of things larger than what science can prove?


Unable? Hardly. Willing to go along with whatever fairytale appeals to us? No.
 
2013-02-02 10:07:49 PM  

St_Francis_P: ecmoRandomNumbers: Don't believe in ghosts, but have seen weird shiat.

I've always wanted to see one, but never have. The strangest thing I've seen is my mom answer the phone before it rang. Twice. Each time it was my brother calling. She claimed she did it all the time. I was seriously wondering if she weighed more than a duck.


Oh, that's just "mamerdocio." It's my mix of english and spanish to explain "priesthood."

Some women are so in-tune with their family, that they just KNOW stuff. It's a 6th sense that really should be studied. My Mom knew when her mother died, and she knew when both her brothers died. She woke up in the middle of the night, woke my dad, and said, "John's dead." I don't think it's supernaturual. I think it's preternatural. Some people just sort of know how their family is. My mom is definitely like that. It's weird. It also sucks, because I've never been able to convincingly lie to her. And it's only the women in my family who do that kind of crap.
 
2013-02-02 10:10:00 PM  
Ultimately, one of the hallmarks of science is objectivity. The more we learn about how the human brain, consciousness, and memory actually work, more we realize just how unreliable subjective experience is.

This is why your anecdote about the time you dreamed your grandma's hairdresser was in a car accident two weeks before he actually was isn't evidence.

Having multiple viewpoints of an event helps, but delusion is contagious, so even that can't entirely be trusted.

If reality were a tree, then science's job is to shake that tree and see what falls out. We've been shaking the tree for 500 years, and so far nothing supernatural has fallen out of the tree.
 
2013-02-02 10:10:51 PM  

Smackledorfer: Kit Fister: TreeHugger: Prank Call of Cthulhu: did the friends tell you about the dreams before or after the event?

Before.  And I'm not misremembering any of this... It didn't happen very long ago.  Anyhow, no scientific evidence to hand you, it's just another whisper in the wind, another story in a world of billions... I've seen many more compelling supernatural stories than this, they just didn't happen to me personally.

/must...not...say ... "it is what it is"
//argh i said it

I dreamed that a friend's child would die a month and a half before it happened. :(

Getting emotional doesn't help your case.


This assumes I'm making a case. I don't know what I believe, honestly. I know that the universe is vast and infinite and that man has not yet conceived of nor understood all of it, and so I remain open to the idea that anything is possible.

Supposing a being much more vast and complex than we are, to have the power and ability to create the universe in which we live, then surely such a being would be to us what we are to a bacterial organism.

To suppose that a being such as that would care to listen to us (a minor cacophony among the uncountable masses of parts and pieces all interwoven), and be able to make a change, is a bit egotistical.

As such, then, I think it is wise to simply accept that we cannot thoroughly explain all phenomena (do DOOOO Do) in nature, some will attempt to assign meaning to it.

Like Aristotle and Plato, I believe in bringing people out of the cave by teaching. Men learn nothing if confronted and demeaned, rather than accepted and made to reason.

More to the point of my own post... I dreamed of the event, and it happened a period later. I accept that it could be coincidence, it could be misinterpretation, or it could be any number of other things. I don't know, and since I can't record my dreams and study the empirically next to recorded events, I cannot say for certain what the answer is.

I am also fascinated by the fact that the only thing that truly defines our existence is our own perception and recollection of it.
 
2013-02-02 10:11:18 PM  

Smackledorfer: Flying Code Monkey: People who don't believe in spiritual stuff can be even more obnoxious about it than people who do believe in spiritual stuff.

This thread, proof.

I found it goes like this.

Least to most:

1. People who don't believe in things without evidence who mostly ignore the, let us call them 'fanciful thinkers'.

2. Fanciful thinkers who accept the sound logic that nobody else believes them for good reason.

3. Fanciful thinkers who expect others to take what is most likely their imaginations at face value.

3. The non believers who never shut up about it (not the same as people making a post or two in a thread on the topic).

4. Fancifuls who think they have some kind of superior open mind because they have active imaginations.

5. Idiots who found a way to feel superior to both groups by condescending to the fancifuls while playing a stupid game of what-ifs and piss-poor analogies.


7. People who can't count. :)

Seriously though, I've seen plenty of weird stuff that I can't explain (and plenty that I figured out), but can't truly attribute any of it to ghosts. I think there are elusive phenomena out there that we don't know how to fully explain yet, but to say it's dead people is a big stretch and that it's just our senses misfiring in every instance is needlessly dismissive.
 
2013-02-02 10:12:44 PM  

Ivan Tudor C McHock: gimmegimme: Kit Fister: Baryogenesis: Kit Fister: Two hundred years ago if you said all matter was made of tiny particles, and that we could harness these particles to provide energy and a host of other things, you'd be laughed out of existence.

It makes me both sad and astounded that people are so sure that ghosts, god, whatever doesn't exist that they use it to belittle and browbeat anyone who isn't like them.

You know what makes me sad?  Folks who don't understand WHY popular and scientific opinion about the existence of sub atomic particles moved from "that's ridiculous" to "well, duh".  Evidence is the reason.  When there is no evidence for your pet hypothesis and mountains of evidence against it then it's irrational to continue to believe in it.  Folks who do think ghosts exist should, by all means, test their beliefs, but they shouldn't assert ghosts exist without good evidence.

You know what else makes me sad? Comparing the state of science 200 years ago to a topic today.  We understand the underlying physics of the "everyday" world incredibly well now and that, obviously, wasn't the case 200 years ago.  Overturning conventional science (ex. ghosts exist) today would take some truly phenomenal new evidence.  The same could not be said of overturning conventional science 200 years ago.

So we should all want to be just like you, unable to conceive of things larger than what science can prove?

If you provide proof to support your belief, I'll be happy to agree with you.  Why haven't ghosts been proven in thousands of years of trying?  More importantly, why do you believe things for which there are no proof?

Regarding the last sentence, it could be explained by Bullshiat Deprivation Syndrome. I have noticed that people who were brainwashed as children to be theists but have grown up, realised they were duped and become atheists are prone to swallowing other forms of bullshiat.

 A friend of mine was brought up catholic, saw the light and became atheist, and then proceeded to swallow every other form of bullshiat that crossed his path from ponzi schemes to reiki to racehorse-tipping software. All this with a tertiary degree and a 142 IQ.


People want to believe that they are special and that they know some sort of secret truth that most everyone else doesn't. Whether its the true path to heaven, the ability to commune with cryptids, or that kinoki footpads take the toxins from your body while you sleep, some people NEED to be one of the chosen who have super special knowledge. There's probably some sort of evolutionary reason for it that has become twisted into "I see dead people".
 
2013-02-02 10:13:22 PM  

Kit Fister: Smackledorfer: Kit Fister: TreeHugger: Prank Call of Cthulhu: did the friends tell you about the dreams before or after the event?

Before.  And I'm not misremembering any of this... It didn't happen very long ago.  Anyhow, no scientific evidence to hand you, it's just another whisper in the wind, another story in a world of billions... I've seen many more compelling supernatural stories than this, they just didn't happen to me personally.

/must...not...say ... "it is what it is"
//argh i said it

I dreamed that a friend's child would die a month and a half before it happened. :(

Getting emotional doesn't help your case.

This assumes I'm making a case. I don't know what I believe, honestly. I know that the universe is vast and infinite and that man has not yet conceived of nor understood all of it, and so I remain open to the idea that anything is possible.

Supposing a being much more vast and complex than we are, to have the power and ability to create the universe in which we live, then surely such a being would be to us what we are to a bacterial organism.

To suppose that a being such as that would care to listen to us (a minor cacophony among the uncountable masses of parts and pieces all interwoven), and be able to make a change, is a bit egotistical.

As such, then, I think it is wise to simply accept that we cannot thoroughly explain all phenomena (do DOOOO Do) in nature, some will attempt to assign meaning to it.

Like Aristotle and Plato, I believe in bringing people out of the cave by teaching. Men learn nothing if confronted and demeaned, rather than accepted and made to reason.

More to the point of my own post... I dreamed of the event, and it happened a period later. I accept that it could be coincidence, it could be misinterpretation, or it could be any number of other things. I don't know, and since I can't record my dreams and study the empirically next to recorded events, I cannot say for certain what the answer is.

I am also fascinated by t ...


That's a great point.  We should believe in weird shiat because we don't understand everything in the universe.  That's totally not a logical fallacy at all.
 
2013-02-02 10:13:22 PM  
Don't know about ghosts.  Never experienced a ghost.  But, I'd say reality may make room for consciousness to experience  more than what we can verify with the normal senses.  I'd even go so far as to say a proper scientist should keep an open mind to such phenomena -- somewhere in between all the myth and fantasy an ignorance there may be valid experiences that are key to a broader understanding of reality and its hidden or subtle dimensions.
 
2013-02-02 10:15:39 PM  
Why are you all still here? reillan won.
 
2013-02-02 10:16:24 PM  
"After I die, wherever my spirit goes, I'm going to try to get back and visit myskeleton at least once a year, because, "Hey, old buddy, how's it going?" - Jack Handey
 
2013-02-02 10:16:27 PM  

FloydA: ItchyMcDoogle: Came for the smug leaving with a years supply of smug after only 22 posts.

Not saying I believe in ghosts but when you get around my age if you have not seen one or two things you cant explain then sucks for you.


"I can't explain everything I've seen, therefore the souls of the dead remain walking the earth in eternal torment, bound and imprisoned on this physical plane, forever seeking atonement for their sins and forgiveness that will never come!"

Sounds perfectly reasonable, anyone who doesn't accept that simple syllogism must be just smug.


They're not the same things. "I can't explain everything I've seen" does not translate into "Therefore there are ghosts"; and even "I believe in ghosts" does not perfectly translate into "I believe ghosts are the souls of the dead walking the earth in eternal torment."

For instance, I believe in ghosts; but in my case I only use the term "ghosts" because that's the only word that's readily available (and short) enough to be used in conversation when talking about the random apparitions that seem to be seen in empty houses and lonely places, usually after dark, usually when alone or in the company of other like-minded individuals, and often in response to an overall feeling of dread or loneliness evoked by other external stimuli. Do I think these people have really experienced something real? Absolutely. Do I think it was the lost soul of a dead person? Hell no. But I don't think most of these folks are making shiat up for fun or profit. Something really happened, and they ascribed it to "ghosts." (Or demons, or aliens, depending)

So dismissing anyone who claims to believe in ghosts as either frauds or fools is pretty smug, yeah. Not too long ago, it was discovered that the human inner ear and human eyeball both respond to very low frequency sound in a way that causes sensations of unease and fear AND a visual impression of "seeing something"--a low frequency that surprisingly is one used by big cats to communicate over long distances. These low frequencies are amplified by large, resonating spaces like caves, spaces that both humans and big cats used to compete for back in prehistory. So suddenly fear of "ghosts" becomes instead a residual survival trait, used to warn humans off of caves inhabited by big predators, and one you can't just "think" away. It's instinctive, not intellectual.
 
2013-02-02 10:16:50 PM  
+1 subby for starting a good thread.

Here's my ghost hypothesis if anyone is still reading: Ghosts are a type of meme which propagates itself partly via the power of suggestion.

If you hear that there is a ghost in a particular location, and you are a suggestible person, then you will be likely to hallucinate the ghost as it was described to you in the same sort of way that stage hypnotism works. The description of the ghost propagates itself orally like a traditional urban legend, and the sightings propagate via the power of suggestion, which in turn feeds the oral transmission.

It explains why only some people see the same ghosts, without the need to invoke anything supernatural.

Now if someone can come up with an experiment to test this hypothesis, Fark may well be awarded a Nobel prize ...

/Going to bed now but I'll check back for any suggestions
//Yes I am really drunk
 
2013-02-02 10:16:50 PM  

Slow of Wit: Don't know about ghosts.  Never experienced a ghost.  But, I'd say reality may make room for consciousness to experience  more than what we can verify with the normal senses.  I'd even go so far as to say a proper scientist should keep an open mind to such phenomena -- somewhere in between all the myth and fantasy an ignorance there may be valid experiences that are key to a broader understanding of reality and its hidden or subtle dimensions.


Seriously.  Even though it has never happened before, I COULD happen to meet Kristen Bell at the supermarket and make dirty love to her in my car.  There's no reason for me to believe this CAN'T happen, so I should be open to the possibility, right?
 
2013-02-02 10:21:31 PM  
I hear laughter at night sometimes in my house when everyone else is sleeping.

I figure it's drug and alcohol damage though.
 
2013-02-02 10:21:32 PM  

italie: Explain to me how quantum entanglement works, then you can lecture me on how ghosts can't exist.


3/10
 
2013-02-02 10:22:13 PM  
The problem with "proof" is that not all experiences are repeatable.  Therefor, they can not be proved to another, but the experiencer has the subjective proof of his experience.  If I say I've had an out-of-body experience, I can't prove it to anyone, and no one is obliged to believe me; but if I trust my own experience, it is real and valid and is not disproved because it is disallowed in someone else's worldview.
 
2013-02-02 10:22:46 PM  

gimmegimme: Kit Fister: Smackledorfer: Kit Fister: TreeHugger: Prank Call of Cthulhu: did the friends tell you about the dreams before or after the event?

Before.  And I'm not misremembering any of this... It didn't happen very long ago.  Anyhow, no scientific evidence to hand you, it's just another whisper in the wind, another story in a world of billions... I've seen many more compelling supernatural stories than this, they just didn't happen to me personally.

/must...not...say ... "it is what it is"
//argh i said it

I dreamed that a friend's child would die a month and a half before it happened. :(

Getting emotional doesn't help your case.

This assumes I'm making a case. I don't know what I believe, honestly. I know that the universe is vast and infinite and that man has not yet conceived of nor understood all of it, and so I remain open to the idea that anything is possible.

Supposing a being much more vast and complex than we are, to have the power and ability to create the universe in which we live, then surely such a being would be to us what we are to a bacterial organism.

To suppose that a being such as that would care to listen to us (a minor cacophony among the uncountable masses of parts and pieces all interwoven), and be able to make a change, is a bit egotistical.

As such, then, I think it is wise to simply accept that we cannot thoroughly explain all phenomena (do DOOOO Do) in nature, some will attempt to assign meaning to it.

Like Aristotle and Plato, I believe in bringing people out of the cave by teaching. Men learn nothing if confronted and demeaned, rather than accepted and made to reason.

More to the point of my own post... I dreamed of the event, and it happened a period later. I accept that it could be coincidence, it could be misinterpretation, or it could be any number of other things. I don't know, and since I can't record my dreams and study the empirically next to recorded events, I cannot say for certain what the answer is.

I am also fascinated by t ...

That's a great point.  We should believe in weird shiat because we don't understand everything in the universe.  That's totally not a logical fallacy at all.


I didn't say that we should believe in it. To believe in it suggests faith. I am saying that we should remain open to the possibilities simply because cannot yet disprove them. Again, just because I remain open to the possibility that greater beings than us exist and we just can't yet prove them, does not mean I "believe" in them or that we all should rush out and start a cult. I like to look at the universe I don't completely understand and ponder the possibilities, even if its just an exercise in "what if".

As to ghosts, never seen one. I wonder what happens to us when we're gone and admit I am a bit scared of the possibility that it's just nothingness, but I don't know and there's only one empirical way to find out. I am open to the possibility while accepting it's far more likely that its a manifestation of mental glitches producing artifacts that are then processed as an "experience". Psychological phenomena (do DOOO Do) are pretty got damn powerful.
 
2013-02-02 10:23:49 PM  
I would love to believe in ghosts. Bigfoot, alien abductions, Chariots of the Gods, it's all very interesting, and it makes for a magical world. So, here's the deal; believers who want to be treated with respect merely have to furnish some evidence that can withstand scrutiny. Testimonials are worthless. That's it, just some evidence. If they are truly all around us, how hard can it be?

The X Files was just a TV show. It was fun, but it wasn't real. Getting angry at skeptics does nothing to strengthen your case.
 
2013-02-02 10:25:32 PM  

Kit Fister: I didn't say that we should believe in it. To believe in it suggests faith. I am saying that we should remain open to the possibilities simply because cannot yet disprove them. Again, just because I remain open to the possibility that greater beings than us exist and we just can't yet prove them, does not mean I "believe" in them or that we all should rush out and start a cult. I like to look at the universe I don't completely understand and ponder the possibilities, even if its just an exercise in "what if".

As to ghosts, never seen one. I wonder what happens to us when we're gone and admit I am a bit scared of the possibility that it's just nothingness, but I don't know and there's only one empirical way to find out. I am open to the possibility while accepting it's far more likely that its a manifestation of mental glitches producing artifacts that are then processed as an "experience". Psychological phenomena (do DOOO Do) are pretty got damn powerful.


No, you make a really good point.  We should be open to things that have never happened before because, hey, they COULD happen.  That's why I spend $30,000 a year on lottery tickets.  I COULD win, so why not?  I love to go to Vegas and bet the LOST numbers because why not?

What a wonderful way to live life!  "It's within the realm of possibility even though it's never happened before, so I'm going to look for it!"
 
2013-02-02 10:29:36 PM  

gimmegimme: Slow of Wit: Don't know about ghosts.  Never experienced a ghost.  But, I'd say reality may make room for consciousness to experience  more than what we can verify with the normal senses.  I'd even go so far as to say a proper scientist should keep an open mind to such phenomena -- somewhere in between all the myth and fantasy an ignorance there may be valid experiences that are key to a broader understanding of reality and its hidden or subtle dimensions.

Seriously.  Even though it has never happened before, I COULD happen to meet Kristen Bell at the supermarket and make dirty love to her in my car.  There's no reason for me to believe this CAN'T happen, so I should be open to the possibility, right?


All possible outcomes of all possible situations exist, only the act of observing collapses reality into a specific outcome. Also, if observation is all that determines what reality/dimension/experience we have happen, and all possible outcomes exist in alternate realities, then somewhere in the multiverse, you're having wild, kinky sex with Ms. Bell right now.
 
2013-02-02 10:29:38 PM  

FloydA: ecmo


Let me take you camping sometime to Red Hill, New Mexico. In the 1910s and 20s, my grandfather and his brother had to watch the sheep and in spring, take them down to the trains in Magdalena, NM. They would have nights where things would grab their canvas bags off the top of them (it wasn't the wind), and throw it hundreds of feet away. They had to go look for with their stuff with a log.

My dad won't even go there in the daytime anymore. In 1989 we took my cousin there arrowhead hunting. All of a sudden we start hearing dog whistles. That was weird. We were sitting (carefully) looking through the red ant hills (they're awesome at collecting ancient beads.). All of a sudden, little rocks start hitting our truck. I was like, "Who threw that?" It was none of us. Then more came. It was like a barrage of small stones being thrown at the trucks. And the whistles kept coming.

This was in broad day light. Not again. After my grandpa got a job with the Forest Service, he swore he would never go to Red Hill again. He never did. Actually, mostly because we lost all that land in the Depression. What can you do?
 
2013-02-02 10:34:26 PM  

Kit Fister: gimmegimme: Slow of Wit: Don't know about ghosts.  Never experienced a ghost.  But, I'd say reality may make room for consciousness to experience  more than what we can verify with the normal senses.  I'd even go so far as to say a proper scientist should keep an open mind to such phenomena -- somewhere in between all the myth and fantasy an ignorance there may be valid experiences that are key to a broader understanding of reality and its hidden or subtle dimensions.

Seriously.  Even though it has never happened before, I COULD happen to meet Kristen Bell at the supermarket and make dirty love to her in my car.  There's no reason for me to believe this CAN'T happen, so I should be open to the possibility, right?

All possible outcomes of all possible situations exist, only the act of observing collapses reality into a specific outcome. Also, if observation is all that determines what reality/dimension/experience we have happen, and all possible outcomes exist in alternate realities, then somewhere in the multiverse, you're having wild, kinky sex with Ms. Bell right now.


Umm...you have no idea how much I want to agree with you.  SADLY, the principles of reason dictate that there's really no point for this version of gimmegimme to believe that he'll ever make sweet, sweet love to this:

www.joblo.com
 
2013-02-02 10:40:32 PM  

gimmegimme: Kit Fister: I didn't say that we should believe in it. To believe in it suggests faith. I am saying that we should remain open to the possibilities simply because cannot yet disprove them. Again, just because I remain open to the possibility that greater beings than us exist and we just can't yet prove them, does not mean I "believe" in them or that we all should rush out and start a cult. I like to look at the universe I don't completely understand and ponder the possibilities, even if its just an exercise in "what if".

As to ghosts, never seen one. I wonder what happens to us when we're gone and admit I am a bit scared of the possibility that it's just nothingness, but I don't know and there's only one empirical way to find out. I am open to the possibility while accepting it's far more likely that its a manifestation of mental glitches producing artifacts that are then processed as an "experience". Psychological phenomena (do DOOO Do) are pretty got damn powerful.

No, you make a really good point.  We should be open to things that have never happened before because, hey, they COULD happen.  That's why I spend $30,000 a year on lottery tickets.  I COULD win, so why not?  I love to go to Vegas and bet the LOST numbers because why not?

What a wonderful way to live life!  "It's within the realm of possibility even though it's never happened before, so I'm going to look for it!"


We do it all the time, though in less sensationalistic ways. We do play the lottery because we could win. We gamble because we could win. We play probabilities all the time, and when heading into the unknown, we only have the best current knowledge to get us started and then figure out what's what as we go.

Just because something is unlikely, doesn't mean it won't or can't happen. Some choose to believe in luck or fate or whatever, or play the odds, because if they don't try they won't know.

I'm not saying we rush out and "believe" every scam or hypothesis. But we SHOULD be open to learning about the unexplained, and at least not prejudging the unexplained if we cannot empirically test it. Is that not the whole point of science? To take unexplained phenomena (do DOOO Do) and observations and seek to explain them, through fact and study and experimentation? Why dismiss out of hand that which is unproven (and poorly studied because it is dismissed out of hand) simply because we have no evidence because we have no reliable, empirical studies to draw from?
 
2013-02-02 10:42:43 PM  

gimmegimme: Kit Fister: gimmegimme: Slow of Wit: Don't know about ghosts.  Never experienced a ghost.  But, I'd say reality may make room for consciousness to experience  more than what we can verify with the normal senses.  I'd even go so far as to say a proper scientist should keep an open mind to such phenomena -- somewhere in between all the myth and fantasy an ignorance there may be valid experiences that are key to a broader understanding of reality and its hidden or subtle dimensions.

Seriously.  Even though it has never happened before, I COULD happen to meet Kristen Bell at the supermarket and make dirty love to her in my car.  There's no reason for me to believe this CAN'T happen, so I should be open to the possibility, right?

All possible outcomes of all possible situations exist, only the act of observing collapses reality into a specific outcome. Also, if observation is all that determines what reality/dimension/experience we have happen, and all possible outcomes exist in alternate realities, then somewhere in the multiverse, you're having wild, kinky sex with Ms. Bell right now.

Umm...you have no idea how much I want to agree with you.  SADLY, the principles of reason dictate that there's really no point for this version of gimmegimme to believe that he'll ever make sweet, sweet love to this:


Not bad, not my cup of tea (not into the thinner, small boobie types) but not bad. Gimmegimme in reality XJ35791 is a lucky dog!
 
2013-02-02 10:44:26 PM  

Kit Fister: gimmegimme: Kit Fister: I didn't say that we should believe in it. To believe in it suggests faith. I am saying that we should remain open to the possibilities simply because cannot yet disprove them. Again, just because I remain open to the possibility that greater beings than us exist and we just can't yet prove them, does not mean I "believe" in them or that we all should rush out and start a cult. I like to look at the universe I don't completely understand and ponder the possibilities, even if its just an exercise in "what if".

As to ghosts, never seen one. I wonder what happens to us when we're gone and admit I am a bit scared of the possibility that it's just nothingness, but I don't know and there's only one empirical way to find out. I am open to the possibility while accepting it's far more likely that its a manifestation of mental glitches producing artifacts that are then processed as an "experience". Psychological phenomena (do DOOO Do) are pretty got damn powerful.

No, you make a really good point.  We should be open to things that have never happened before because, hey, they COULD happen.  That's why I spend $30,000 a year on lottery tickets.  I COULD win, so why not?  I love to go to Vegas and bet the LOST numbers because why not?

What a wonderful way to live life!  "It's within the realm of possibility even though it's never happened before, so I'm going to look for it!"

We do it all the time, though in less sensationalistic ways. We do play the lottery because we could win. We gamble because we could win. We play probabilities all the time, and when heading into the unknown, we only have the best current knowledge to get us started and then figure out what's what as we go.

Just because something is unlikely, doesn't mean it won't or can't happen. Some choose to believe in luck or fate or whatever, or play the odds, because if they don't try they won't know.

I'm not saying we rush out and "believe" every scam or hypothesis. But we SHOULD be ...


Wow.  You are really confusing things.  The empirical mathematics of probability tell you how likely you are to win.  People who gamble understand how shiatty their odds are of winning.

You are just proving the point that irrationality guides humans to believe in things that simply can't happen based upon previous evidence.
 
2013-02-02 10:45:43 PM  

Kit Fister: Smackledorfer: Kit Fister: TreeHugger: Prank Call of Cthulhu: did the friends tell you about the dreams before or after the event?

Before.  And I'm not misremembering any of this... It didn't happen very long ago.  Anyhow, no scientific evidence to hand you, it's just another whisper in the wind, another story in a world of billions... I've seen many more compelling supernatural stories than this, they just didn't happen to me personally.

/must...not...say ... "it is what it is"
//argh i said it

I dreamed that a friend's child would die a month and a half before it happened. :(

Getting emotional doesn't help your case.

This assumes I'm making a case. I don't know what I believe, honestly. I know that the universe is vast and infinite and that man has not yet conceived of nor understood all of it, and so I remain open to the idea that anything is possible.

Supposing a being much more vast and complex than we are, to have the power and ability to create the universe in which we live, then surely such a being would be to us what we are to a bacterial organism.

To suppose that a being such as that would care to listen to us (a minor cacophony among the uncountable masses of parts and pieces all interwoven), and be able to make a change, is a bit egotistical.

As such, then, I think it is wise to simply accept that we cannot thoroughly explain all phenomena (do DOOOO Do) in nature, some will attempt to assign meaning to it.

Like Aristotle and Plato, I believe in bringing people out of the cave by teaching. Men learn nothing if confronted and demeaned, rather than accepted and made to reason.

More to the point of my own post... I dreamed of the event, and it happened a period later. I accept that it could be coincidence, it could be misinterpretation, or it could be any number of other things. I don't know, and since I can't record my dreams and study the empirically next to recorded events, I cannot say for certain what the answer is.

I am also fascinated by the fact that the only thing that truly defines our existence is our own perception and recollection of it.


You think the rubbish you are spewing is akin to a great philosopher?

Wow.
 
2013-02-02 10:46:36 PM  

Kit Fister: gimmegimme: Kit Fister: gimmegimme: Slow of Wit: Don't know about ghosts.  Never experienced a ghost.  But, I'd say reality may make room for consciousness to experience  more than what we can verify with the normal senses.  I'd even go so far as to say a proper scientist should keep an open mind to such phenomena -- somewhere in between all the myth and fantasy an ignorance there may be valid experiences that are key to a broader understanding of reality and its hidden or subtle dimensions.

Seriously.  Even though it has never happened before, I COULD happen to meet Kristen Bell at the supermarket and make dirty love to her in my car.  There's no reason for me to believe this CAN'T happen, so I should be open to the possibility, right?

All possible outcomes of all possible situations exist, only the act of observing collapses reality into a specific outcome. Also, if observation is all that determines what reality/dimension/experience we have happen, and all possible outcomes exist in alternate realities, then somewhere in the multiverse, you're having wild, kinky sex with Ms. Bell right now.

Umm...you have no idea how much I want to agree with you.  SADLY, the principles of reason dictate that there's really no point for this version of gimmegimme to believe that he'll ever make sweet, sweet love to this:

Not bad, not my cup of tea (not into the thinner, small boobie types) but not bad. Gimmegimme in reality XJ35791 is a lucky dog!




And in some other alternate, xenomorphs are real, and a very unfortunate Gimmegimme has been facehugged, and is awaiting the terrible final outcome. That would be the unluckiest Gimmegimme.
 
2013-02-02 10:47:06 PM  

demidog: Smackledorfer: Flying Code Monkey: People who don't believe in spiritual stuff can be even more obnoxious about it than people who do believe in spiritual stuff.

This thread, proof.

I found it goes like this.

Least to most:

1. People who don't believe in things without evidence who mostly ignore the, let us call them 'fanciful thinkers'.

2. Fanciful thinkers who accept the sound logic that nobody else believes them for good reason.

3. Fanciful thinkers who expect others to take what is most likely their imaginations at face value.

3. The non believers who never shut up about it (not the same as people making a post or two in a thread on the topic).

4. Fancifuls who think they have some kind of superior open mind because they have active imaginations.

5. Idiots who found a way to feel superior to both groups by condescending to the fancifuls while playing a stupid game of what-ifs and piss-poor analogies.

7. People who can't count. :)

Seriously though, I've seen plenty of weird stuff that I can't explain (and plenty that I figured out), but can't truly attribute any of it to ghosts. I think there are elusive phenomena out there that we don't know how to fully explain yet, but to say it's dead people is a big stretch and that it's just our senses misfiring in every instance is needlessly dismissive.


Tv while posting fail.
 
2013-02-02 10:48:43 PM  

Repo Man: Kit Fister: gimmegimme: Kit Fister: gimmegimme: Slow of Wit: Don't know about ghosts.  Never experienced a ghost.  But, I'd say reality may make room for consciousness to experience  more than what we can verify with the normal senses.  I'd even go so far as to say a proper scientist should keep an open mind to such phenomena -- somewhere in between all the myth and fantasy an ignorance there may be valid experiences that are key to a broader understanding of reality and its hidden or subtle dimensions.

Seriously.  Even though it has never happened before, I COULD happen to meet Kristen Bell at the supermarket and make dirty love to her in my car.  There's no reason for me to believe this CAN'T happen, so I should be open to the possibility, right?

All possible outcomes of all possible situations exist, only the act of observing collapses reality into a specific outcome. Also, if observation is all that determines what reality/dimension/experience we have happen, and all possible outcomes exist in alternate realities, then somewhere in the multiverse, you're having wild, kinky sex with Ms. Bell right now.

Umm...you have no idea how much I want to agree with you.  SADLY, the principles of reason dictate that there's really no point for this version of gimmegimme to believe that he'll ever make sweet, sweet love to this:

Not bad, not my cup of tea (not into the thinner, small boobie types) but not bad. Gimmegimme in reality XJ35791 is a lucky dog!

And in some other alternate, xenomorphs are real, and a very unfortunate Gimmegimme has been facehugged, and is awaiting the terrible final outcome. That would be the unluckiest Gimmegimme.


Whoa.  Whoa.

Whoa.

By Kit Fister's logic, this is as likely as some version of me making love to Kristen Bell.

Now I'm scared.
 
2013-02-02 10:49:08 PM  
There is nothing wrong with having an open mind.
As long as the screen door is secure.
 
2013-02-02 10:54:48 PM  

gimmegimme: Kit Fister: gimmegimme: Kit Fister: I didn't say that we should believe in it. To believe in it suggests faith. I am saying that we should remain open to the possibilities simply because cannot yet disprove them. Again, just because I remain open to the possibility that greater beings than us exist and we just can't yet prove them, does not mean I "believe" in them or that we all should rush out and start a cult. I like to look at the universe I don't completely understand and ponder the possibilities, even if its just an exercise in "what if".

As to ghosts, never seen one. I wonder what happens to us when we're gone and admit I am a bit scared of the possibility that it's just nothingness, but I don't know and there's only one empirical way to find out. I am open to the possibility while accepting it's far more likely that its a manifestation of mental glitches producing artifacts that are then processed as an "experience". Psychological phenomena (do DOOO Do) are pretty got damn powerful.

No, you make a really good point.  We should be open to things that have never happened before because, hey, they COULD happen.  That's why I spend $30,000 a year on lottery tickets.  I COULD win, so why not?  I love to go to Vegas and bet the LOST numbers because why not?

What a wonderful way to live life!  "It's within the realm of possibility even though it's never happened before, so I'm going to look for it!"

We do it all the time, though in less sensationalistic ways. We do play the lottery because we could win. We gamble because we could win. We play probabilities all the time, and when heading into the unknown, we only have the best current knowledge to get us started and then figure out what's what as we go.

Just because something is unlikely, doesn't mean it won't or can't happen. Some choose to believe in luck or fate or whatever, or play the odds, because if they don't try they won't know.

I'm not saying we rush out and "believe" every scam or hypothesis. But we SHOULD be ...

Wow.  You are really confusing things.  The empirical mathematics of probability tell you how likely you are to win.  People who gamble understand how shiatty their odds are of winning.

You are just proving the point that irrationality guides humans to believe in things that simply can't happen based upon previous evidence.


I guess we'll agree to disagree because I think that dismissing the possibility simply because it is improbable is absolutely wrongheaded. No, it's not likely, but it happens, so better to be open to all possibilities while judging each situation independently based on the facts presented in each seems more logical.

And, if past evidence was the only benchmark by which something could or couldn't happen, no one would get struck by lightning, no one would play the lottery, and no safety devices or precautions would ever be needed because past evidence has been that none of those things have ever happened/been needed.

And 26 people in Connecticut are now alive because past evidence has said that a nutjob won't (or is statistically highly unlikely to) run in and gun them down.

It's foolish to conflate improbability with impossibility, and assume that probabilities adequately account for freak occurrences of improbable events, and cease to be open to the possibility of the unlikely because of it.
 
2013-02-02 10:56:36 PM  

gimmegimme: Repo Man: Kit Fister: gimmegimme: Kit Fister: gimmegimme: Slow of Wit: Don't know about ghosts.  Never experienced a ghost.  But, I'd say reality may make room for consciousness to experience  more than what we can verify with the normal senses.  I'd even go so far as to say a proper scientist should keep an open mind to such phenomena -- somewhere in between all the myth and fantasy an ignorance there may be valid experiences that are key to a broader understanding of reality and its hidden or subtle dimensions.

Seriously.  Even though it has never happened before, I COULD happen to meet Kristen Bell at the supermarket and make dirty love to her in my car.  There's no reason for me to believe this CAN'T happen, so I should be open to the possibility, right?

All possible outcomes of all possible situations exist, only the act of observing collapses reality into a specific outcome. Also, if observation is all that determines what reality/dimension/experience we have happen, and all possible outcomes exist in alternate realities, then somewhere in the multiverse, you're having wild, kinky sex with Ms. Bell right now.

Umm...you have no idea how much I want to agree with you.  SADLY, the principles of reason dictate that there's really no point for this version of gimmegimme to believe that he'll ever make sweet, sweet love to this:

Not bad, not my cup of tea (not into the thinner, small boobie types) but not bad. Gimmegimme in reality XJ35791 is a lucky dog!

And in some other alternate, xenomorphs are real, and a very unfortunate Gimmegimme has been facehugged, and is awaiting the terrible final outcome. That would be the unluckiest Gimmegimme.

Whoa.  Whoa.

Whoa.

By Kit Fister's logic, this is as likely as some version of me making love to Kristen Bell.

Now I'm scared.


Likely? No. Possible? As possible as getting hit by a stray asteroid next Thursday.
 
2013-02-02 10:58:27 PM  

Smackledorfer: Kit Fister: Smackledorfer: Kit Fister: TreeHugger: Prank Call of Cthulhu: did the friends tell you about the dreams before or after the event?

Before.  And I'm not misremembering any of this... It didn't happen very long ago.  Anyhow, no scientific evidence to hand you, it's just another whisper in the wind, another story in a world of billions... I've seen many more compelling supernatural stories than this, they just didn't happen to me personally.

/must...not...say ... "it is what it is"
//argh i said it

I dreamed that a friend's child would die a month and a half before it happened. :(

Getting emotional doesn't help your case.

This assumes I'm making a case. I don't know what I believe, honestly. I know that the universe is vast and infinite and that man has not yet conceived of nor understood all of it, and so I remain open to the idea that anything is possible.

Supposing a being much more vast and complex than we are, to have the power and ability to create the universe in which we live, then surely such a being would be to us what we are to a bacterial organism.

To suppose that a being such as that would care to listen to us (a minor cacophony among the uncountable masses of parts and pieces all interwoven), and be able to make a change, is a bit egotistical.

As such, then, I think it is wise to simply accept that we cannot thoroughly explain all phenomena (do DOOOO Do) in nature, some will attempt to assign meaning to it.

Like Aristotle and Plato, I believe in bringing people out of the cave by teaching. Men learn nothing if confronted and demeaned, rather than accepted and made to reason.

More to the point of my own post... I dreamed of the event, and it happened a period later. I accept that it could be coincidence, it could be misinterpretation, or it could be any number of other things. I don't know, and since I can't record my dreams and study the empirically next to recorded events, I cannot say for certain what the answer is.

I am also fascinated by the fact that the only thing that truly defines our existence is our own perception and recollection of it.

You think the rubbish you are spewing is akin to a great philosopher?

Wow.


You think that poorly advocating simply having an open mind and differentiating between improbable and impossible equates with believing its anywhere near the thoughts spewed by the great philosophers?

Wow.
 
2013-02-02 10:59:11 PM  

Gyrfalcon: There is nothing wrong with having an open mind.
As long as the screen door is secure.


This
 
2013-02-02 10:59:58 PM  
userserve-ak.last.fm

They exist, but they're kind of stupid.
 
2013-02-02 11:06:52 PM  

Kit Fister: Smackledorfer: Kit Fister: Smackledorfer: Kit Fister: TreeHugger: Prank Call of Cthulhu: did the friends tell you about the dreams before or after the event?

Before.  And I'm not misremembering any of this... It didn't happen very long ago.  Anyhow, no scientific evidence to hand you, it's just another whisper in the wind, another story in a world of billions... I've seen many more compelling supernatural stories than this, they just didn't happen to me personally.

/must...not...say ... "it is what it is"
//argh i said it

I dreamed that a friend's child would die a month and a half before it happened. :(

Getting emotional doesn't help your case.

This assumes I'm making a case. I don't know what I believe, honestly. I know that the universe is vast and infinite and that man has not yet conceived of nor understood all of it, and so I remain open to the idea that anything is possible.

Supposing a being much more vast and complex than we are, to have the power and ability to create the universe in which we live, then surely such a being would be to us what we are to a bacterial organism.

To suppose that a being such as that would care to listen to us (a minor cacophony among the uncountable masses of parts and pieces all interwoven), and be able to make a change, is a bit egotistical.

As such, then, I think it is wise to simply accept that we cannot thoroughly explain all phenomena (do DOOOO Do) in nature, some will attempt to assign meaning to it.

Like Aristotle and Plato, I believe in bringing people out of the cave by teaching. Men learn nothing if confronted and demeaned, rather than accepted and made to reason.

More to the point of my own post... I dreamed of the event, and it happened a period later. I accept that it could be coincidence, it could be misinterpretation, or it could be any number of other things. I don't know, and since I can't record my dreams and study the empirically next to recorded events, I cannot say for certain what the answer is.

I am also fascinated by the fact that the only thing that truly defines our existence is our own perception and recollection of it.

You think the rubbish you are spewing is akin to a great philosopher?

Wow.

You think that poorly advocating simply having an open mind and differentiating between improbable and impossible equates with believing its anywhere near the thoughts spewed by the great philosophers?

Wow.


Ah, so your reference to leading people out of the cave had nothing to do with the rest of your posts in the thread?

Because your ridiculous line of defending the supernatural stupidity under a guise of "open-mindedness" would have disgusted the greek philosophers.

Theories about the four humors have infinitely more logic behind them than ghost rubbish. It is the believers in ghosts who dismiss reasonable discussion about their beliefs, not the non-believers.
 
2013-02-02 11:13:08 PM  

skinnycatullus: St_Francis_P: It is one of the more harmless beliefs. Not many people have been killed over ghosts, nor does belief in ghosts trash the political process.

Except it is a symptom of the kind of magical thinking that does trash the political process, when the electorate wants X amount of services and believes, despite all evidence to the contrary, that those services can be purchased for some amount of money less than X. Or that something must be done about the 12 million illegal immigrants "ruining the country", while a few thousand bankers actually did tank the economy and any effort to punish them or even prevent it from happening in the future was defeated amid cries of socialism and tyranny.

Wow... maybe I should get more fiber or something.

Anyway, 45% of Americans are stupid.


Says you, you self important f**ktard.
 
2013-02-02 11:16:40 PM  

Gyrfalcon: There is nothing wrong with having an open mind.
As long as the screen door is secure.


So true, time for some science.
encrypted-tbn3.gstatic.com
/Sorry, that book was awesome when I was getting stoned all the time ; )
 
2013-02-02 11:21:53 PM  

Kit Fister: gimmegimme: Repo Man: Kit Fister: gimmegimme: Kit Fister: gimmegimme: Slow of Wit: Don't know about ghosts.  Never experienced a ghost.  But, I'd say reality may make room for consciousness to experience  more than what we can verify with the normal senses.  I'd even go so far as to say a proper scientist should keep an open mind to such phenomena -- somewhere in between all the myth and fantasy an ignorance there may be valid experiences that are key to a broader understanding of reality and its hidden or subtle dimensions.

Seriously.  Even though it has never happened before, I COULD happen to meet Kristen Bell at the supermarket and make dirty love to her in my car.  There's no reason for me to believe this CAN'T happen, so I should be open to the possibility, right?

All possible outcomes of all possible situations exist, only the act of observing collapses reality into a specific outcome. Also, if observation is all that determines what reality/dimension/experience we have happen, and all possible outcomes exist in alternate realities, then somewhere in the multiverse, you're having wild, kinky sex with Ms. Bell right now.

Umm...you have no idea how much I want to agree with you.  SADLY, the principles of reason dictate that there's really no point for this version of gimmegimme to believe that he'll ever make sweet, sweet love to this:

Not bad, not my cup of tea (not into the thinner, small boobie types) but not bad. Gimmegimme in reality XJ35791 is a lucky dog!

And in some other alternate, xenomorphs are real, and a very unfortunate Gimmegimme has been facehugged, and is awaiting the terrible final outcome. That would be the unluckiest Gimmegimme.

Whoa.  Whoa.

Whoa.

By Kit Fister's logic, this is as likely as some version of me making love to Kristen Bell.

Now I'm scared.

Likely? No. Possible? As possible as getting hit by a stray asteroid next Thursday.


Way to prioritize fears, dude.
 
2013-02-02 11:22:48 PM  

Smackledorfer: Kit Fister: Smackledorfer: Kit Fister: Smackledorfer: Kit Fister: TreeHugger: Prank Call of Cthulhu: did the friends tell you about the dreams before or after the event?

Before.  And I'm not misremembering any of this... It didn't happen very long ago.  Anyhow, no scientific evidence to hand you, it's just another whisper in the wind, another story in a world of billions... I've seen many more compelling supernatural stories than this, they just didn't happen to me personally.

/must...not...say ... "it is what it is"
//argh i said it

I dreamed that a friend's child would die a month and a half before it happened. :(

Getting emotional doesn't help your case.

This assumes I'm making a case. I don't know what I believe, honestly. I know that the universe is vast and infinite and that man has not yet conceived of nor understood all of it, and so I remain open to the idea that anything is possible.

Supposing a being much more vast and complex than we are, to have the power and ability to create the universe in which we live, then surely such a being would be to us what we are to a bacterial organism.

To suppose that a being such as that would care to listen to us (a minor cacophony among the uncountable masses of parts and pieces all interwoven), and be able to make a change, is a bit egotistical.

As such, then, I think it is wise to simply accept that we cannot thoroughly explain all phenomena (do DOOOO Do) in nature, some will attempt to assign meaning to it.

Like Aristotle and Plato, I believe in bringing people out of the cave by teaching. Men learn nothing if confronted and demeaned, rather than accepted and made to reason.

More to the point of my own post... I dreamed of the event, and it happened a period later. I accept that it could be coincidence, it could be misinterpretation, or it could be any number of other things. I don't know, and since I can't record my dreams and study the empirically next to recorded events, I cannot say for certain what the answer is.

I am also fascinated by the fact that the only thing that truly defines our existence is our own perception and recollection of it.

You think the rubbish you are spewing is akin to a great philosopher?

Wow.

You think that poorly advocating simply having an open mind and differentiating between improbable and impossible equates with believing its anywhere near the thoughts spewed by the great philosophers?

Wow.

Ah, so your reference to leading people out of the cave had nothing to do with the rest of your posts in the thread?

Because your ridiculous line of defending the supernatural stupidity under a guise of "open-mindedness" would have disgusted the greek philosophers.

Theories about the four humors have infinitely more logic behind them than ghost rubbish. It is the believers in ghosts who dismiss reasonable discussion about their beliefs, not the non-believers.


Ah, thank you. I'm glad you're personally in tune with the ancient philosophers to know their viewpoints. While you are channeling them, what are their views on lady gaga, honey boo boo, and the Super Bowl?

Anyway, ghosts and god probably don't exist, or do but are actually something so far removed from our feeble explanations and misconceptions as to practically not exist. But I still believe in being open to all possibilities. This is why I have demanded I be buried with a pack of hotdogs and buns: if I'm going to hell, I'll at least remember my part of the picnic.

I think the biggest nonsense are those who take a belief to the point of irrational fervency and devotion. Yah, aliens might exist, but that doesn't mean we start building planetary defense systems and space ports to welcome friendly off worlders.
 
2013-02-02 11:25:06 PM  

gimmegimme: Kit Fister: gimmegimme: Repo Man: Kit Fister: gimmegimme: Kit Fister: gimmegimme: Slow of Wit: Don't know about ghosts.  Never experienced a ghost.  But, I'd say reality may make room for consciousness to experience  more than what we can verify with the normal senses.  I'd even go so far as to say a proper scientist should keep an open mind to such phenomena -- somewhere in between all the myth and fantasy an ignorance there may be valid experiences that are key to a broader understanding of reality and its hidden or subtle dimensions.

Seriously.  Even though it has never happened before, I COULD happen to meet Kristen Bell at the supermarket and make dirty love to her in my car.  There's no reason for me to believe this CAN'T happen, so I should be open to the possibility, right?

All possible outcomes of all possible situations exist, only the act of observing collapses reality into a specific outcome. Also, if observation is all that determines what reality/dimension/experience we have happen, and all possible outcomes exist in alternate realities, then somewhere in the multiverse, you're having wild, kinky sex with Ms. Bell right now.

Umm...you have no idea how much I want to agree with you.  SADLY, the principles of reason dictate that there's really no point for this version of gimmegimme to believe that he'll ever make sweet, sweet love to this:

Not bad, not my cup of tea (not into the thinner, small boobie types) but not bad. Gimmegimme in reality XJ35791 is a lucky dog!

And in some other alternate, xenomorphs are real, and a very unfortunate Gimmegimme has been facehugged, and is awaiting the terrible final outcome. That would be the unluckiest Gimmegimme.

Whoa.  Whoa.

Whoa.

By Kit Fister's logic, this is as likely as some version of me making love to Kristen Bell.

Now I'm scared.

Likely? No. Possible? As possible as getting hit by a stray asteroid next Thursday.

Way to prioritize fears, dude.


I'm more worried about farting really hard and sharting myself than I ever was about either of those possibilities ;)

Besides, if I am due to be hit by an asteroid on Thursday, I'll be glad for the relatively instant death and the peace and quiet of eternal nothingness.
 
2013-02-02 11:28:22 PM  

Kit Fister: gimmegimme: Kit Fister: gimmegimme: Repo Man: Kit Fister: gimmegimme: Kit Fister: gimmegimme: Slow of Wit: Don't know about ghosts.  Never experienced a ghost.  But, I'd say reality may make room for consciousness to experience  more than what we can verify with the normal senses.  I'd even go so far as to say a proper scientist should keep an open mind to such phenomena -- somewhere in between all the myth and fantasy an ignorance there may be valid experiences that are key to a broader understanding of reality and its hidden or subtle dimensions.

Seriously.  Even though it has never happened before, I COULD happen to meet Kristen Bell at the supermarket and make dirty love to her in my car.  There's no reason for me to believe this CAN'T happen, so I should be open to the possibility, right?

All possible outcomes of all possible situations exist, only the act of observing collapses reality into a specific outcome. Also, if observation is all that determines what reality/dimension/experience we have happen, and all possible outcomes exist in alternate realities, then somewhere in the multiverse, you're having wild, kinky sex with Ms. Bell right now.

Umm...you have no idea how much I want to agree with you.  SADLY, the principles of reason dictate that there's really no point for this version of gimmegimme to believe that he'll ever make sweet, sweet love to this:

Not bad, not my cup of tea (not into the thinner, small boobie types) but not bad. Gimmegimme in reality XJ35791 is a lucky dog!

And in some other alternate, xenomorphs are real, and a very unfortunate Gimmegimme has been facehugged, and is awaiting the terrible final outcome. That would be the unluckiest Gimmegimme.

Whoa.  Whoa.

Whoa.

By Kit Fister's logic, this is as likely as some version of me making love to Kristen Bell.

Now I'm scared.

Likely? No. Possible? As possible as getting hit by a stray asteroid next Thursday.

Way to prioritize fears, dude.

I'm more worried about farting really ha ...


Are you sure that your shart isn't the spirit of Thomas Edison trying to escape the pits of Hell?


If "yes," how are you sure?  If "no," how are you sure?
 
2013-02-02 11:29:49 PM  

FloydA: I'm asking in all sincerity here; how do you know there is not a rational explanation for your experience?  What makes you certain of that?


Because I have a much-better-than-ordinary understanding of science and engineering, and nothing I know adequately explains how a 700-pound pool table was picked up and (very loudly) dropped several inches from its position while none of the remaining 14 tables in the room were disturbed, in a building that I know for a fact was occupied by only myself, in an area that doesn't experience substantial seismic activity, along with a few other boundary conditions that make it overwhelmingly unlikely that another person would not have had the time, opportunity, or means to do that, and I'm frankly surprised that the table didn't suffer any damage.  That's once instance of several, involving interactions with the physical world (i.e., not just seeing a ghostly apparition, or chain of events ascribable to coincidence).

Does this mean I believe in ghosts?  Hmm, I couldn't really say, because there's just too much to the natural world that we don't understand yet.  While people are often superstitious and not inclined to engage in critical thought, it's also wrong to go too far the other way and flatly deny the possibility of something merely because one has not experienced it.
 
2013-02-02 11:31:46 PM  

Gyrfalcon: They're not the same things. "I can't explain everything I've seen" does not translate into "Therefore there are ghosts"; and even "I believe in ghosts" does not perfectly translate into "I believe ghosts are the souls of the dead walking the earth in eternal torment."

For instance, I believe in ghosts; but in my case I only use the term "ghosts" because that's the only word that's readily available (and short) enough to be used in conversation when talking about the random apparitions that seem to be seen in empty houses and lonely places, usually after dark, usually when alone or in the company of other like-minded individuals, and often in response to an overall feeling of dread or loneliness evoked by other external stimuli. Do I think these people have really experienced something real? Absolutely. Do I think it was the lost soul of a dead person? Hell no. But I don't think most of these folks are making shiat up for fun or profit. Something really happened, and they ascribed it to "ghosts." (Or demons, or aliens, depending)

So dismissing anyone who claims to believe in ghosts as either frauds or fools is pretty smug, yeah. Not too long ago, it was discovered that the human inner ear and human eyeball both respond to very low frequency sound in a way that causes sensations of unease and fear AND a visual impression of "seeing something"--a low frequency that surprisingly is one used by big cats to communicate over long distances. These low frequencies are amplified by large, resonating spaces like caves, spaces that both humans and big cats used to compete for back in prehistory. So suddenly fear of "ghosts" becomes instead a residual survival trait, used to warn humans off of caves inhabited by big predators, and one you can't just "think" away. It's instinctive, not intellectual.


First, let me predicate my response with the comment that your posts show up in the "god-tier green" color that is shared by about four or five other people.  Anything you say is automatically assumed to be important, interesting, and worth reading, just because it's you who said it.  Your posts are in the group with abb3w, TMLO, Bathia_Mapes, and very few others.  So insofar as what follows is a disagreement, please understand that it is a respectful difference of opinion- you're one of my heroes on Fark and my disagreements with you should be interpreted in that light.

Second, I have to admit that (as usual on Saturday nights) I am really drunk, so I hope that you'll forgive me if I'm not entirely coherent.  I just finished my fifth whiskey and soda, so if my typing becomes cat-like, please forgive me.

OK, with that apology out of the way, I agree with you (or at least what I think you're saying) that the  experience of seeing "ghosts" is real.  The people who say they have "seen a ghost" most definitely did have a real experience.  I'm not questioning that at all.  I'm only questioning whether their interpretation of that experience as evidence of the continuity of consciousness after death is accurate.

To put it in context, at the end of my block, there is a Pentecostal church where, each week, people "speak in tongues" and engage in convulsive dancing.  A few miles away, there is a Houngan who knows how to get followers ridden by the Lwa and even evoke the gros bon ange.

I have absolutely no doubt that their experiences are "real."  I'm not dismissing them as frauds or fools.  They really are doing something, and the experience is completely "real" to all of them.

I'm just saying that there is no real evidence that the experience is "supernatural."  There are too many easier, perfectly natural, explanations

Do weird things happen that we can't explain yet?  Yes, definitely.
Can we conclude, from that fact, that "supernatural" explanations are correct?  No, not really.  "Not yet explained" is not equivalent to "unexplainable."

To put it in personal terms: all through this thread, I've heard people saying "I had an experience that I can't explain, and if you don't except a supernatural explanation for it, then you're just being 'smug' because you haven't had the same experience."

In fact, I actually have had similar experiences, lots of them, and have studied ways of inducing them (both with and without "chemical assistance"), and I've become rather proficient at it, and I haven't ever encountered anything I can't explain.

Is something happening?  Yes. Is it the souls of the dear departed?  No.  Am I simply "dismissing" people as frauds and fools?  No. Am I willing to accept their claims at face value?  Again, no.  Not because "you haven't been there man, so you don't know!" but precisely because I actually  have been there.

The  experience is real.  It's the  interpretation that I'm questioning.

/Again, please do not interpret my disagreement as a personal critique- you are one of my favorite farkers.
 
2013-02-02 11:32:10 PM  
Why aren't there caveman ghosts?
 
2013-02-02 11:32:45 PM  

cgremlin: FloydA: I'm asking in all sincerity here; how do you know there is not a rational explanation for your experience?  What makes you certain of that?

Because I have a much-better-than-ordinary understanding of science and engineering, and nothing I know adequately explains how a 700-pound pool table was picked up and (very loudly) dropped several inches from its position while none of the remaining 14 tables in the room were disturbed, in a building that I know for a fact was occupied by only myself, in an area that doesn't experience substantial seismic activity, along with a few other boundary conditions that make it overwhelmingly unlikely that another person would not have had the time, opportunity, or means to do that, and I'm frankly surprised that the table didn't suffer any damage.  That's once instance of several, involving interactions with the physical world (i.e., not just seeing a ghostly apparition, or chain of events ascribable to coincidence).

Does this mean I believe in ghosts?  Hmm, I couldn't really say, because there's just too much to the natural world that we don't understand yet.  While people are often superstitious and not inclined to engage in critical thought, it's also wrong to go too far the other way and flatly deny the possibility of something merely because one has not experienced it.


Good point.  If I don't understand what happened, I just believe it's "ghosts."  It's the only rational way to go.
 
2013-02-02 11:33:04 PM  

tinfoil-hat maggie: Gyrfalcon: There is nothing wrong with having an open mind.
As long as the screen door is secure.

So true, time for some science.
[encrypted-tbn3.gstatic.com image 180x280]
/Sorry, that book was awesome when I was getting stoned all the time ; )


Read that book twice back in the 90s, back when I was a little more open-minded.  It was fun to take in all those ideas as uncritically as I did.  Still find some of the ideas stimulating.

Kit Fister ,now in blue.  I like an open mind and patient words.
 
2013-02-02 11:34:59 PM  

Ed Grubermann: Zeppelininthesky: I don't believe in ghosts. Most of the phenomena can be explained by the human body reacting to a situation because of evolution. If a house settles it makes a noise. Because you don't know what the noise is, you react to it like there was something there. If you tend to believe in ghosts, then what you heard was a ghost. Even if you don't believe in ghosts, your brain is wired to be fearful of what you can't see and don't understand.

Our brains come with hard-coded "co-processors" that go about their duties with no input or control from us. Some process sounds, some process taste, some keep a lookout for threats, some for mates, etc... Sometimes they misfire, especially the threat detectors. It's better to see a tiger hiding in the grass that doesn't actually exist than it is to not see the real tiger hiding in the grass.


Sam Harris fan, eh? Me too.
 
2013-02-02 11:35:01 PM  
All of my years of watching Scooby Doo taught me that ghosts are never real, and are always guys in suits who are trying to pull a scam so they can buy real estate for cheap. Though they did often seem to have super strength while they were disguised as whatever apparition they chose for their scam, they were never a match for that intrepid crew of sleuths, with their talking dog and their drug enhanced candies they referred to as "Scooby Snacks".
 
2013-02-02 11:48:04 PM  

cgremlin: FloydA: I'm asking in all sincerity here; how do you know there is not a rational explanation for your experience?  What makes you certain of that?

Because I have a much-better-than-ordinary understanding of science and engineering, and nothing I know adequately explains how a 700-pound pool table was picked up and (very loudly) dropped several inches from its position while none of the remaining 14 tables in the room were disturbed, in a building that I know for a fact was occupied by only myself, in an area that doesn't experience substantial seismic activity, along with a few other boundary conditions that make it overwhelmingly unlikely that another person would not have had the time, opportunity, or means to do that, and I'm frankly surprised that the table didn't suffer any damage.  That's once instance of several, involving interactions with the physical world (i.e., not just seeing a ghostly apparition, or chain of events ascribable to coincidence).

Does this mean I believe in ghosts?  Hmm, I couldn't really say, because there's just too much to the natural world that we don't understand yet.  While people are often superstitious and not inclined to engage in critical thought, it's also wrong to go too far the other way and flatly deny the possibility of something merely because one has not experienced it.


Is it possible, given your understanding of the complexities of the brain and the reliability, or lack thereof, of human perception and memory, that the events you remember did not occur exactly the way that you perceived at the time, or that you recall in the present?


To put it in context; about a decade ago or so, some people not too far from me were put on trial, because some people "remembered" during psychological therapy, that they were sexually abused by a satanic cult.  Their memories of the long-past abuse were more vivid than my memories of what I had for breakfast this morning; they could recall the demonic rituals in vivid detail.

Nevertheless, the events they described never actually occurred.  The accusers' minds were the sole source of the events.  The accusers weren't "just making it up," they really did believe what they were saying.  It just wasn't actually true.

Human memory is notoriously unreliable, and human eyewitnesses, even the best of them, are not particularly trustworthy.

Is there any other possible "natural" explanation for your memory of a pool table moving?  If so, do we have some way to eliminate that possibility?
 
2013-02-02 11:48:46 PM  

Kit Fister: Smackledorfer: Kit Fister: Smackledorfer: Kit Fister: Smackledorfer: Kit Fister: TreeHugger: Prank Call of Cthulhu: did the friends tell you about the dreams before or after the event?

Before.  And I'm not misremembering any of this... It didn't happen very long ago.  Anyhow, no scientific evidence to hand you, it's just another whisper in the wind, another story in a world of billions... I've seen many more compelling supernatural stories than this, they just didn't happen to me personally.

/must...not...say ... "it is what it is"
//argh i said it

I dreamed that a friend's child would die a month and a half before it happened. :(

Getting emotional doesn't help your case.

This assumes I'm making a case. I don't know what I believe, honestly. I know that the universe is vast and infinite and that man has not yet conceived of nor understood all of it, and so I remain open to the idea that anything is possible.

Supposing a being much more vast and complex than we are, to have the power and ability to create the universe in which we live, then surely such a being would be to us what we are to a bacterial organism.

To suppose that a being such as that would care to listen to us (a minor cacophony among the uncountable masses of parts and pieces all interwoven), and be able to make a change, is a bit egotistical.

As such, then, I think it is wise to simply accept that we cannot thoroughly explain all phenomena (do DOOOO Do) in nature, some will attempt to assign meaning to it.

Like Aristotle and Plato, I believe in bringing people out of the cave by teaching. Men learn nothing if confronted and demeaned, rather than accepted and made to reason.

More to the point of my own post... I dreamed of the event, and it happened a period later. I accept that it could be coincidence, it could be misinterpretation, or it could be any number of other things. I don't know, and since I can't record my dreams and study the empirically next to recorded events, I cannot say for certain what the answer is.

I am also fascinated by the fact that the only thing that truly defines our existence is our own perception and recollection of it.

You think the rubbish you are spewing is akin to a great philosopher?

Wow.

You think that poorly advocating simply having an open mind and differentiating between improbable and impossible equates with believing its anywhere near the thoughts spewed by the great philosophers?

Wow.

Ah, so your reference to leading people out of the cave had nothing to do with the rest of your posts in the thread?

Because your ridiculous line of defending the supernatural stupidity under a guise of "open-mindedness" would have disgusted the greek philosophers.

Theories about the four humors have infinitely more logic behind them than ghost rubbish. It is the believers in ghosts who dismiss reasonable discussion about their beliefs, not the non-believers.

Ah, thank you. I'm glad you're personally in tune with the ancient philosophers to know their viewpoints. While you are channeling them, what are their views on lady gaga, honey boo boo, and the Super Bowl?

Anyway, ghosts and god probably don't exist, or do but are actually something so far removed from our feeble explanations and misconceptions as to practically not exist. But I still believe in being open to all possibilities. This is why I have demanded I be buried with a pack of hotdogs and buns: if I'm going to hell, I'll at least remember my part of the picnic.

I think the biggest nonsense are those who take a belief to the point of irrational fervency and devotion. Yah, aliens might exist, but that doesn't mean we start building planetary defense systems and space ports to welcome friendly off worlders.


For the record, you brought up the great philosophers and went out of your way to claim their greatness as your own in this discussion. Don't go accusing me of your own flaws here.

Here is a rough recap if your open mind is losing its grip on reality.

You, "my thoughts are like aristotle's"

Me, "I rather disagree and here's why.."

You, "such audacity of you to think you speak for them!"


I mean come on.

Plus maybe I do speak for them. They might be channeling through me. I'm not saying they are. I thought real hard about whether they would agree with your thoughts on them. Perhaps I had a waking dream vision sent from beyond? Or there is an imprint of their feelings in the cosmos that has shared its energy with me?
 
2013-02-02 11:51:23 PM  

Smackledorfer: For the record, you brought up the great philosophers and went out of your way to claim their greatness as your own in this discussion. Don't go accusing me of your own flaws here.

Here is a rough recap if your open mind is losing its grip on reality.

You, "my thoughts are like aristotle's"

Me, "I rather disagree and here's why.."

You, "such audacity of you to think you speak for them!"


I mean come on.

Plus maybe I do speak for them. They might be channeling through me. I'm not saying they are. I thought real hard about whether they would agree with your thoughts on them. Perhaps I had a waking dream vision sent from beyond? Or there is an imprint of their feelings in the cosmos that has shared its energy with me?


OMG.  You're channeling Aristotle?  Can I please send you money?  Why would a person say such a thing if it weren't true?
 
2013-02-02 11:55:34 PM  
The poll tax was wrong.  Now a poll quiz, I could wrap my head around that.  Just a couple of questions covering basic math, civics and cosmology.

Figure out the tip on a $20 restaurant bill, identify who is responsible for creating laws, and name explain why the sun rises in the east and sets in the west and you can vote.  Miss any of these and just let the rest of us decide what is best for you.
 
2013-02-02 11:59:17 PM  

itsfullofstars: The poll tax was wrong.  Now a poll quiz, I could wrap my head around that.  Just a couple of questions covering basic math, civics and cosmology.

Figure out the tip on a $20 restaurant bill, identify who is responsible for creating laws, and name explain why the sun rises in the east and sets in the west and you can vote.  Miss any of these and just let the rest of us decide what is best for you.


Why do you want to disenfranchise Republicans?
 
2013-02-02 11:59:51 PM  

ecmoRandomNumbers: Don't believe in ghosts, but have seen weird shiat.

 
My time as a security guard doing grave shifts. I can say I have so many stories of unexplained things happening, and two that can't be explained away.
 
2013-02-03 12:00:34 AM  

xevian: ecmoRandomNumbers: Don't believe in ghosts, but have seen weird shiat.
 
My time as a security guard doing grave shifts. I can say I have so many stories of unexplained things happening, and two that can't be explained away.


You're absolutely right.  You can't explain what happened, so it must be ghosts.
 
2013-02-03 12:05:26 AM  

gimmegimme: itsfullofstars: The poll tax was wrong.  Now a poll quiz, I could wrap my head around that.  Just a couple of questions covering basic math, civics and cosmology.

Figure out the tip on a $20 restaurant bill, identify who is responsible for creating laws, and name explain why the sun rises in the east and sets in the west and you can vote.  Miss any of these and just let the rest of us decide what is best for you.

Why do you want to disenfranchise Republicans?


Before I answer, would you like this list sorted alphabetically, chronologically, or in order of importance?  It's a rather large file, you see.
 
2013-02-03 12:06:14 AM  

xevian: ecmoRandomNumbers: Don't believe in ghosts, but have seen weird shiat.

My time as a security guard doing grave shifts. I can say I have so many stories of unexplained things happening, and two that can't be explained away.


Must be a ghost then.

Oh wait, that would be an explanation, and you already said that they can't be explained away, so I guess it must not have been a ghost. Or anything else, because anything else would also be an explanation.
 
2013-02-03 12:07:11 AM  

Slow of Wit: Read that book twice back in the 90s, back when I was a little more open-minded. It was fun to take in all those ideas as uncritically as I did. Still find some of the ideas stimulating.


It was geat stuff I used to love tripping out my friends with stuff from that : )
 
2013-02-03 12:08:18 AM  

gimmegimme: Good point.  If I don't understand what happened, I just believe it's "ghosts."  It's the only rational way to go.


I'll put my understanding of science up against yours any day of the week, and twice on Sunday if you want to be snotty about it.
 
2013-02-03 12:11:10 AM  

gimmegimme: itsfullofstars: The poll tax was wrong.  Now a poll quiz, I could wrap my head around that.  Just a couple of questions covering basic math, civics and cosmology.

Figure out the tip on a $20 restaurant bill, identify who is responsible for creating laws, and name explain why the sun rises in the east and sets in the west and you can vote.  Miss any of these and just let the rest of us decide what is best for you.

Why do you want to disenfranchise Republicans?


Funny you should mention education level and voting tendency, there is some truth there:

static.happyplace.com
 
2013-02-03 12:14:05 AM  

cgremlin: gimmegimme: Good point.  If I don't understand what happened, I just believe it's "ghosts."  It's the only rational way to go.

I'll put my understanding of science up against yours any day of the week, and twice on Sunday if you want to be snotty about it.


Well, I would accept your challenge, but my aromatherapist, acupuncturist, reflexologist and aural medium already told me that I would win.

Sorry.  =(
 
2013-02-03 12:17:22 AM  

itsfullofstars: The poll tax was wrong.  Now a poll quiz, I could wrap my head around that.  Just a couple of questions covering basic math, civics and cosmology.

Figure out the tip on a $20 restaurant bill, identify who is responsible for creating laws, and name explain why the sun rises in the east and sets in the west and you can vote.  Miss any of these and just let the rest of us decide what is best for you.


I've thought the same thing, let each party write 100 sets of 3 simple questions that the voter needs to get 80% on each party's set to vote. The questions and answers would have to be approved by the other parties.

Problems that I don't see a solution to is that politicians are rarely rational thinkers and are generally not above gaming the questions to favour their demographic. And you know the answers would get leaked.

Never mind the possibility of a question with a wrong answer ensuring all people with an IQ above luke warm get banned from voting. ( I see this as a very likely possibility and would ensure a quick steep slide to idiocracy )

The less factors the politicians can get control of the better I fear.
 
2013-02-03 12:19:16 AM  
FloydA: Is it possible, given your understanding of the complexities of the brain and the reliability, or lack thereof, of human perception and memory, that the events you remember did not occur exactly the way that you perceived at the time, or that you recall in the present?


To put it in context; about a decade ago or so, some people not too far from me were put on trial, because some people "remembered" during psychological therapy, that they were sexually abused by a satanic cult.  Their memories of the long-past abuse were more vivid than my memories of what I had for breakfast this morning; they could recall the demonic rituals in vivid detail.

Nevertheless, the events they described never actually occurred.  The accusers' minds were the sole source of the events.  The accusers weren't "just making it up," they really did believe what they were saying.  It just wasn't actually true.


Assuming you're talking about the McMartin debacle, or one of the similar cases that fell out from that in the 80's and 90's, let's compare their situation to mine:

- They were children, and I was an adult.
- They had the "memories" implanted in the course of very suggestive interactions with therapists that often had an axe to grind. ("The man touched you there, didn't he?").  I did not.
- They were often saying what they believed the adults asking the questions wanted them to say in an attempt to please them.  I truly could not care less.

I understand memory is not perfect, and there are times when I question my memory.  This is not one of them.  I'm also not the only person to have experienced such things in that establishment, so I guess the next "rational" explanation is going to be group hysteria.
 
2013-02-03 12:23:03 AM  

skinnycatullus: Anyway, 45% of Americans are stupid.


hmmm.. that may vary quite a bit as stupidity is quite open to interpretation... if I was to judge Americans by Fark's standards (what I read in here), the number would be much higher.

A rule of thumb is that I find that the more a person is judgmental about other's beliefs, the worse it gets.
 
2013-02-03 12:23:13 AM  

cgremlin: FloydA: Is it possible, given your understanding of the complexities of the brain and the reliability, or lack thereof, of human perception and memory, that the events you remember did not occur exactly the way that you perceived at the time, or that you recall in the present?


To put it in context; about a decade ago or so, some people not too far from me were put on trial, because some people "remembered" during psychological therapy, that they were sexually abused by a satanic cult.  Their memories of the long-past abuse were more vivid than my memories of what I had for breakfast this morning; they could recall the demonic rituals in vivid detail.

Nevertheless, the events they described never actually occurred.  The accusers' minds were the sole source of the events.  The accusers weren't "just making it up," they really did believe what they were saying.  It just wasn't actually true.

Assuming you're talking about the McMartin debacle, or one of the similar cases that fell out from that in the 80's and 90's, let's compare their situation to mine:

- They were children, and I was an adult.
- They had the "memories" implanted in the course of very suggestive interactions with therapists that often had an axe to grind. ("The man touched you there, didn't he?").  I did not.
- They were often saying what they believed the adults asking the questions wanted them to say in an attempt to please them.  I truly could not care less.

I understand memory is not perfect, and there are times when I question my memory.  This is not one of them.  I'm also not the only person to have experienced such things in that establishment, so I guess the next "rational" explanation is going to be group hysteria.


Friend, you don't need to explain yourself.  There's never been any documented case of supernatural haunting ever...until now.  Yours was the first.  Congratulations!
 
2013-02-03 12:30:07 AM  
This thread is the derpiest thing I have ever seen. And I have been in politics threads.
 
2013-02-03 12:30:08 AM  

litespeed74: Why aren't there caveman ghosts?


there are
well
archaic hunter- gather ghosts
anyway
 
2013-02-03 12:37:43 AM  

gimmegimme: xevian: ecmoRandomNumbers: Don't believe in ghosts, but have seen weird shiat.
 
My time as a security guard doing grave shifts. I can say I have so many stories of unexplained things happening, and two that can't be explained away.

You're absolutely right.  You can't explain what happened, so it must be ghosts.


ghosts is a loaded term
kinda like Jesus
and just about as accurate
 
2013-02-03 12:42:33 AM  
 
2013-02-03 12:43:01 AM  
www.coasttocoastam.com
 
2013-02-03 12:43:41 AM  

Tenga: Ed Grubermann: Zeppelininthesky: I don't believe in ghosts. Most of the phenomena can be explained by the human body reacting to a situation because of evolution. If a house settles it makes a noise. Because you don't know what the noise is, you react to it like there was something there. If you tend to believe in ghosts, then what you heard was a ghost. Even if you don't believe in ghosts, your brain is wired to be fearful of what you can't see and don't understand.

Our brains come with hard-coded "co-processors" that go about their duties with no input or control from us. Some process sounds, some process taste, some keep a lookout for threats, some for mates, etc... Sometimes they misfire, especially the threat detectors. It's better to see a tiger hiding in the grass that doesn't actually exist than it is to not see the real tiger hiding in the grass.

Sam Harris fan, eh? Me too.


I don't mind Harris, but I knew about this stuff long before I ever heard of him.
 
2013-02-03 12:44:13 AM  

zepillin: gimmegimme: xevian: ecmoRandomNumbers: Don't believe in ghosts, but have seen weird shiat.

My time as a security guard doing grave shifts. I can say I have so many stories of unexplained things happening, and two that can't be explained away.

You're absolutely right.  You can't explain what happened, so it must be ghosts.

ghosts is a loaded term
kinda like Jesus
and just about as accurate


Okay.

You can't explain what happened


so it must have been magic
or apparitions
or spectral phenomena
or brain feeling remnants
or Reptilians
or bqhatevwr you want reality to be, bro.

thanks for setting me str8.
 
2013-02-03 12:47:16 AM  

zepillin: gimmegimme: xevian: ecmoRandomNumbers: Don't believe in ghosts, but have seen weird shiat.
 
My time as a security guard doing grave shifts. I can say I have so many stories of unexplained things happening, and two that can't be explained away.

You're absolutely right.  You can't explain what happened, so it must be ghosts.

ghosts is a loaded term
kinda like Jesus
and just about as accurate


Worst haiku ever.
 
2013-02-03 12:47:32 AM  
gimmegimme:

Friend, you don't need to explain yourself.  There's never been any documented case of supernatural haunting ever...until now.  Yours was the first.  Congratulations!

you know, I had you on ignore until well into this thread, and removed your from the list when I saw that you were starting to debate civilly to Kit Fister.

I have to admit I am thinking about putting you back on. (I will remove the ignore mark if I see a quoted ignoree say something civil.)

It's not because I want to surround myself with like thinkers... I use orange to mark people who think different than me, so that I can take the time to try to see their point of view... in fact I find a great many times those people end up migrating to the palest orange and ending up on my green list of thoughtful farkers.

I would put you on ignore because you are caustic in your writing.  Again, It's not your stated opinion I hide from, because I agree with you in this.

It is because as rational as you claim to be, you cannot seem to refrain from talking down sarcastically to people as if they have personally insulted you for daring to speak their mind. If you think that you are justified to do so, that is evidence of another sort of delusion.

You seem to speak from a position of extreme confidence that everything is as you believe it is and all other opinions are foolish and wrong. It seems like you believe that is your position in life; to put these people in their place.

I was once like that, and I shudder at what a abrasive dumbass I was a decade ago. I am glad that patient people took me aside and explained my dumbassery to me.

Being right does not make it ok to be a dick and acting that way is very counter productive on so many levels.
 
2013-02-03 12:48:44 AM  

Baryogenesis: cgremlin: People can believe or not believe whatever they want.  It makes no difference to me.  I know what I've experienced, and I also know there's not a "rational" explanation for it.  If someone wants to think I'm irrational or otherwise mentally deficient because they've not personally experienced the same thing, that's their problem.

I don't think anyone would tell you that you didn't have your "experience", but rather your interpretation of said experience is likely flawed.  The human brain just isn't all that reliable.

Tatterdemalian: Do you believe in wealth, laws, promises? None of those are real.

You're just confusing physical and real. Concepts, like laws, are useful abstractions, but they don't have physical forms.  The concept of a ghost is real (we understand the meaning and can explain it to others), but the "physical" manifestation is not.


I don't consider "useful" synonymous with "real."

/nor do I consider "imaginary" synonymous with "useless."
//I do find great amusement at watching some FARKers twist themselves in logical knots trying to find a way to differentiate economics, legal systems, and culture from the religious practices they hate with every fiber of their being, though
///Ed Gruberman, for example, had to switch the subject of one sentence with its adjective, and drop another line completely, to resolve his cognitive dissonance and pretend I was making strawmen
 
2013-02-03 12:52:12 AM  

Bumblefark: zepillin: gimmegimme: xevian: ecmoRandomNumbers: Don't believe in ghosts, but have seen weird shiat.
 
My time as a security guard doing grave shifts. I can say I have so many stories of unexplained things happening, and two that can't be explained away.

You're absolutely right.  You can't explain what happened, so it must be ghosts.

ghosts is a loaded term
kinda like Jesus
and just about as accurate

Worst haiku ever.


LOL
 
2013-02-03 12:53:23 AM  
Three cheers for Subby for starting a great thread.

Repo Man:  Getting angry at skeptics does nothing to strengthen your case.


It actually strengthens their case quite a bit, just in the opposite way.

I love ghosts and cryptids, I read everything I can get my  hands on (I'm not a believer, if anything I'm a debunker).  I've come up with one flaw in ghost sightings  that even the most ardent believer can't defend: Location, Location, Location. Every good ghost story is about a haunted theatre, haunted old hotel, haunted cemetery etc. I've never heard one about a haunted tanning salon, haunted Midas Muffler, haunted TGIFridays. Every old theatre is supposedly haunted but I've never read about a haunted H and R Block. Lots of haunted houses but very few haunted timeshares. Not many haunted IHOPs.

If male ghosts existed, the number of sightings at strip clubs would be through the roof. Same with women's locker rooms, golf courses, football stadiums and bars. This is especially true when someone dies away from home and is never brought home, only to the funeral home etc. If a ghost can figure out how to get home, isn't he going to stop by the strip club first? The golf course?
 
2013-02-03 12:53:33 AM  

C_Canuk: gimmegimme:

Friend, you don't need to explain yourself.  There's never been any documented case of supernatural haunting ever...until now.  Yours was the first.  Congratulations!

you know, I had you on ignore until well into this thread, and removed your from the list when I saw that you were starting to debate civilly to Kit Fister.

I have to admit I am thinking about putting you back on. (I will remove the ignore mark if I see a quoted ignoree say something civil.)

It's not because I want to surround myself with like thinkers... I use orange to mark people who think different than me, so that I can take the time to try to see their point of view... in fact I find a great many times those people end up migrating to the palest orange and ending up on my green list of thoughtful farkers.

I would put you on ignore because you are caustic in your writing.  Again, It's not your stated opinion I hide from, because I agree with you in this.

It is because as rational as you claim to be, you cannot seem to refrain from talking down sarcastically to people as if they have personally insulted you for daring to speak their mind. If you think that you are justified to do so, that is evidence of another sort of delusion.

You seem to speak from a position of extreme confidence that everything is as you believe it is and all other opinions are foolish and wrong. It seems like you believe that is your position in life; to put these people in their place.

I was once like that, and I shudder at what a abrasive dumbass I was a decade ago. I am glad that patient people took me aside and explained my dumbassery to me.

Being right does not make it ok to be a dick and acting that way is very counter productive on so many levels.


What is more important to you?  Believing things that are true?  Or believing things that are pleasant to you?
 
2013-02-03 01:07:35 AM  
Well I'm glad that there are people like gimmegimme who know everything...

Apparently they have superior knowledge and understanding of every single thing there is, the rest of us are idiots, subhumans, frauds, etc.

What I don't understand is why people even argue so much about it. If you believe, fine. If you don't believe fine. But to keep coming back to reiterate your thought or belief or what-have-you is unnecessary. You will not change the mind of a believer, just as a believer won't ever change yours.
 
2013-02-03 01:07:46 AM  

gimmegimme: zepillin: gimmegimme: xevian: ecmoRandomNumbers: Don't believe in ghosts, but have seen weird shiat.

My time as a security guard doing grave shifts. I can say I have so many stories of unexplained things happening, and two that can't be explained away.

You're absolutely right.  You can't explain what happened, so it must be ghosts.

ghosts is a loaded term
kinda like Jesus
and just about as accurate

Okay.

You can't explain what happened


so it must have been magic
or apparitions
or spectral phenomena
or brain feeling remnants
or Reptilians
or bqhatevwr you want reality to be, bro.

thanks for setting me str8.


straight is boring & no way to go thru life ... son?

word's are abstract symbols
embodied, we are limited by our perceptions
what we see and experience is in no way related to actuality
I believe that's true cause the physicists tell me so

I'm not hung up on that belief
 
2013-02-03 01:10:34 AM  
I find it laughable that there are so many who are so sure the phenomena ghosts don't exist because it can't be quantified and measured. That the only 'proof' that they exist is from first hand stories and less than clear audio and video evidence.

95% of the universe is a 'ghost'.

We don't know what 95% of the universe is. It can't be quantified or measured. We can only tell something is there by evidence by objects millions of light years away in their movement. In fact, their movement defies our known laws of physics and mathematics. That what we can only see the electro-magnetic spectrum (and in some cases, we've only been able to see parts of it in any detail in the last 10 years) - and only see how it was millions or billions of years ago. We keep on finding things in the universe that oppose what we 'know' - the universe isn't old enough to have supermassive black holes at the center of almost every single galaxy or the Lyman alpha blobs are too large to exist in the time the universe had existed, for example.

Does this mean ghosts exist? No. Does it mean I believe in ghosts.No? It means I don't NOT believe in them. It means that I keep an open mind. Open enough to know that what we 'know' today may not be what we know tomorrow. I think we occasionally get a little egotistical in what we know when, in fact we really know very little.
 
2013-02-03 01:14:02 AM  

ecmoRandomNumbers: Don't believe in ghosts, but have seen weird shiat.


Back when we had an apartment, there were two weird shiat happenings.

We moved into a 1 Bdr where some old guy had died about two months before. Several times when I got home from work my wife swore that my electric razor in the medicine cabinet would turn itself on. She would turn it off. And 10 minutes later it would go on again. This happened sometimes 4 or 5 times a day, sometimes 2 or 3 times a week. She also said that the radio she liked to listen to would sometimes change the station to oldies, all by itself. (This, BTW, was 12 years before she had her schizophrenic episode.)  I didn't know what to believe, but one day I stayed home with the flu and heard the same shiat she described, And, no, she wasn't doing it. This stuff stopped happening after about a month.

We moved into another apartment, a 2 bdr, in the same complex after about 4 years. Coincidentally, an elderly woman had died in that apartment several years before. We had four cats, who would always line up in the living room and watch the door when I came home. They could, apparently, hear me walking up the walkway from the carport. So one day my wife thought I was coming home early, because the cats all lined up like they always did. She was sitting at the dining room table watching them, because they were funny to watch. So she hears the door open, and footsteps in the entry; the cats follow something with their eyes and turning their heads, that apparently walks across the carpet into the bedroom. They then lose interest and go do their cat things. Only one problem. The door did not open, and there was no one walking across the carpet. But each of the four cats were, she said, definitely following something with their eyes and heads. This happened only once, and I didn't see it. But, based on the first incident, which I did see, I believe her.
 
2013-02-03 01:18:16 AM  

Tatterdemalian: Baryogenesis: cgremlin: People can believe or not believe whatever they want.  It makes no difference to me.  I know what I've experienced, and I also know there's not a "rational" explanation for it.  If someone wants to think I'm irrational or otherwise mentally deficient because they've not personally experienced the same thing, that's their problem.

I don't think anyone would tell you that you didn't have your "experience", but rather your interpretation of said experience is likely flawed.  The human brain just isn't all that reliable.

Tatterdemalian: Do you believe in wealth, laws, promises? None of those are real.

You're just confusing physical and real. Concepts, like laws, are useful abstractions, but they don't have physical forms.  The concept of a ghost is real (we understand the meaning and can explain it to others), but the "physical" manifestation is not.

I don't consider "useful" synonymous with "real."

/nor do I consider "imaginary" synonymous with "useless."
//I do find great amusement at watching some FARKers twist themselves in logical knots trying to find a way to differentiate economics, legal systems, and culture from the religious practices they hate with every fiber of their being, though
///Ed Gruberman, for example, had to switch the subject of one sentence with its adjective, and drop another line completely, to resolve his cognitive dissonance and pretend I was making strawmen


I don't want to critique anyone on the basis of their beliefs, and of course I want to hear the opinions of those who disagree with me, but I think that we can all agree on some points, and one of those universally agreed upon and obvious points is that you, personally, are very, very stupid, so please shut the f**k up.  Thanks.
 
2013-02-03 01:23:24 AM  

Zombie DJ: I do. I've studied the Paranormal for over 30 years. I've got a great "laugh" from a cemetery I walked through.
When people ask me to give them proof there's ghosts, I just tell them it's not my job to make you believe.
That's YOUR job. Do your own homework. I do it for fun, not change the World.


I wonder if part of the problem with paranormal "science" is that there is some sort of mental energy feedback loop at work, and that witnessing paranormal stuff requires either belief in it, or at least an honest "turning off" of skepticism towards it. If so, that would totally screw up double blind studies, and the traditional scientific method. You would necessarily have to rely on "Gonzo-Science" where the scientist is a participant in the experience.
 
2013-02-03 01:24:08 AM  
I sort of wish that ghosts existed, because it'd imply that there is something after death. But it sure doesn't look like it.

Atheism is the most depressing of the religions. My mind just can't believe in things that don't exist, though.
 
2013-02-03 01:24:58 AM  
people believe in ghosts... so what.
 
2013-02-03 01:26:34 AM  

ItchyMcDoogle: Came for the smug leaving with a years supply of smug after only 22 posts.

Not saying I believe in ghosts but when you get around my age if you have not seen one or two things you cant explain then sucks for you.


This.
 
2013-02-03 01:39:45 AM  

FloydA: ItchyMcDoogle: Came for the smug leaving with a years supply of smug after only 22 posts.

Not saying I believe in ghosts but when you get around my age if you have not seen one or two things you cant explain then sucks for you.


"I can't explain everything I've seen, therefore the souls of the dead remain walking the earth in eternal torment, bound and imprisoned on this physical plane, forever seeking atonement for their sins and forgiveness that will never come!"


Or maybe what's there is just some kind of residual energy field (like ball lightning) that contains a mind, or the remains of a mind, that is confused and perhaps does not know that it's body is dead. If that were a fact it would not say anything one way or the other about sins, good, evil, or life after death. Building a religious straw man to try and ridicule what could well be a subtle and extremely hard-to-document natural occurrence is stupid.

Remember, it wasn't until the invention of the microscope that germs took the place of the standard explanations (thousands of years old) for illness: evil spirits, bad air, gremlins, and witchcraft. Perhaps we just don't have the necessary equipment yet to prove "ghosts" one way or the other.

And we know less about exactly how and why the human mind works than we do about the moons of Jupiter. That's changing, but we aren't there yet.
 
2013-02-03 01:43:19 AM  

Minerva8918: Well I'm glad that there are people like gimmegimme who know everything...

Apparently they have superior knowledge and understanding of every single thing there is, the rest of us are idiots, subhumans, frauds, etc.

What I don't understand is why people even argue so much about it. If you believe, fine. If you don't believe fine. But to keep coming back to reiterate your thought or belief or what-have-you is unnecessary. You will not change the mind of a believer, just as a believer won't ever change yours.

If that were true, then the percentage of the population who believe in a particular superstition, say christianity for example, would remain static. The fact is that christianity, in first world countries, is dying a slow and glorious death. For this we can thank those who take the time to help those less fortunate in terms of education.

 
2013-02-03 01:48:24 AM  

Myria: I sort of wish that ghosts existed, because it'd imply that there is something after death. But it sure doesn't look like it.

Atheism is the most depressing of the religions. My mind just can't believe in things that don't exist, though.


I am pretty agnostic. I don't necessarily believe, but I don't actually disbelieve either. Though many atheists use the lack of science for their proof, science is what gets me to leaning toward believing. It is how everything in the universe works so intricately together from the elements in the periodic table to life to galaxies is, to me, mind-blowingly amazing and makes me think what else. The more we learn about the world around us the more I want to know and the more I am amazed that it works.
 
2013-02-03 01:49:58 AM  
It's the leap from "Can't explain it" to "Must be ghosts" that is so funny.
 
2013-02-03 01:50:54 AM  

TheOriginalEd: people believe in ghosts... so what.


So what!?  You should hate them for it, obviously.   You should look down on them and consider them stupid and inferior.  That's what tolerant open-minded people do.  Lol.
 
2013-02-03 01:52:04 AM  

Just Another OC Homeless Guy: ItchyMcDoogle: Came for the smug leaving with a years supply of smug after only 22 posts.

Not saying I believe in ghosts but when you get around my age if you have not seen one or two things you cant explain then sucks for you.

This.


Really? This?

If that sentence read the same, except the word "ghosts" was replaced any of "tooth fairy", "spaghetti monster" or  any other fictional character ever created,would you have given it a "this"? If not, why not?
 
2013-02-03 01:59:09 AM  

GammaTitan: I find it laughable that there are so many who are so sure the phenomena ghosts don't exist because it can't be quantified and measured. That the only 'proof' that they exist is from first hand stories and less than clear audio and video evidence.

95% of the universe is a 'ghost'.

We don't know what 95% of the universe is. It can't be quantified or measured. We can only tell something is there by evidence by objects millions of light years away in their movement. In fact, their movement defies our known laws of physics and mathematics. That what we can only see the electro-magnetic spectrum (and in some cases, we've only been able to see parts of it in any detail in the last 10 years) - and only see how it was millions or billions of years ago. We keep on finding things in the universe that oppose what we 'know' - the universe isn't old enough to have supermassive black holes at the center of almost every single galaxy or the Lyman alpha blobs are too large to exist in the time the universe had existed, for example.

Does this mean ghosts exist? No. Does it mean I believe in ghosts.No? It means I don't NOT believe in them. It means that I keep an open mind. Open enough to know that what we 'know' today may not be what we know tomorrow. I think we occasionally get a little egotistical in what we know when, in fact we really know very little.


I find it laughable that people pretend to be intellectual about stuff when in reality all they did was change the definition of the topic and then speak about something unrelated.

A "ghost" is not defined as "anything we don't know all about" anymore than an apple's definition is the same as a fruit.

You can speak again when you master venn diagrams and work from there. Sorry if I'm cranky but wtf man.
 
2013-02-03 02:00:00 AM  

FloydA: The experience is real. It's the interpretation that I'm questioning.


Exactly (and allowing for your current state of intoxication).

And, you know, vice versa is true too. The people who insist that their experience WAS real and there cannot possibly be any alternative explanation for it (in other words, it WAS a ghost [demon, alien]) and anyone who offers a commonsense rationale is just in denial about the existence of another plane of being or God or whatever...they are equally smug in their own way.

That you had an experience of some sort is in no way diminished by the fact that it wasn't the ghost of Aunt Mary come to tell you that Heaven is really a wonderful place. But I, at least, am totally willing to accept you DID have an experience that made you believe that it was Aunt Mary and affected you in some profound way--that should be enough for both of us. And yet for many people on both sides of the discussion, it's just not.
 
2013-02-03 02:01:06 AM  

Ivan Tudor C McHock: Minerva8918: Well I'm glad that there are people like gimmegimme who know everything...

Apparently they have superior knowledge and understanding of every single thing there is, the rest of us are idiots, subhumans, frauds, etc.

What I don't understand is why people even argue so much about it. If you believe, fine. If you don't believe fine. But to keep coming back to reiterate your thought or belief or what-have-you is unnecessary. You will not change the mind of a believer, just as a believer won't ever change yours.

If that were true, then the percentage of the population who believe in a particular superstition, say christianity for example, would remain static. The fact is that christianity, in first world countries, is dying a slow and glorious death. For this we can thank those who take the time to help those less fortunate in terms of education.


I wasn't talking about religion.

And to be more clear, if you have someone adamant about their beliefs, in the truest sense of the word, you can argue until you are blue in the face and they will not change their mind.
 
2013-02-03 02:05:18 AM  

Ed Grubermann: BillCo: Remember folks, everyone who believes in something you don't is a stupid simpleton. Doesn't matter if it's ghost, religion or global warming.  Don't even get me started on aliens.

If you beleive in something that has no evidence and violates the laws of physics and biology, well you're an idiot. Show me the mechanism by which a ghost can exist.


There's tons of evidence. The only problem is that it is all anecdotal. As I mentioned in another post on this thread, I've personally seen/heard two things I can't explain: an electric battery shaver that would turn itself on, but only occasionally. And a goddamned radio that would change stations by itself. The shaver had a 2-position switch with a half-inch throw, and I took it apart and checked the simple electric circuit (I was an ET in the Navy a decade or so before). Ditto with the radio, which had a large manual dial. Neither device had any faults or shorts.

Now I don't expect you to believe me, since I have no PROOF of any of that. But I saw/heard what I saw/heard, and it's convinced me that - as of now - we don't know everything. Except you, of course. You do know everything.

The laws of physics and biology? Which ones? Newton's Laws? Or Einstein's, which proved Newton to be wrong. Darwin's evolutionary theory? Or what about the complications to that suggested by Lynn Margulis? And let's not even discuss the possibilities being suggested by quantum and string field theorists that may apply to both physics and biology.  Do you actually have the naive chutzpah to say that we know everything? We know less about the human brain than about the moons of Saturn.
 
2013-02-03 02:10:31 AM  

Myria: Atheism is the most depressing of the religions.


Not the most depressing, I would say.

The idea that someone/thing is watching and judging me sinful when I masturbate is depressing.  The idea that some nice guy got brutally tortured to death for my personal sins is very very depressing.  The worst you can say about atheism is that it's as irrational as religion.  Which is okay too, since people are irrational - every last person.  Anyone who claims to be the embodiment of logic without emotion is lying to you, and very probably themselves.

My only real complaint about atheism is that so many of it's followers are so utterly arrogant, self-righteous, self-important, and evangelistic.
 
2013-02-03 02:15:37 AM  

ThrobblefootSpectre: Myria: Atheism is the most depressing of the religions.

Not the most depressing, I would say.

The idea that someone/thing is watching and judging me sinful when I masturbate is depressing.  The idea that some nice guy got brutally tortured to death for my personal sins is very very depressing.  The worst most ridiculous thing you can say about atheism is that it's as irrational as religion.  Which is okay too, since people are irrational - every last person.  Anyone who claims to be the embodiment of logic without emotion is lying to you, and very probably themselves.

My only real complaint about atheism is that so many of it's followers are so utterly arrogant, self-righteous, self-important, and evangelistic.

 
2013-02-03 02:19:26 AM  
I think humanity has discovered most of the fundamental rules of the Universe. I doubt that there is something major that is missing.

Science is a game of diminishing returns. The impact of Newton's theory of gravitation on the understanding of the Universe was huge. It was inaccurate in extreme cases, and Einstein and Lorentz provided a more-accurate theory of gravity. However, relativity had a much smaller impact on science than Newton's theory. The next thing in gravity will probably be a theory of quantum gravity. Relativity is also wrong in its own extreme cases. Again, though, quantum gravity will have far less of an impact than relativity. It will just fix a few corner cases.

I think that there won't be all that much new discovered in physics this century - I am guessing that the biggest advances will be in reverse engineering complex systems built upon physics. In other words, biology.

As a result of human understanding of physics approaching completeness, there are not that many phenomena that are unexplained. The major ones have answers already. That there exists a phenomena as complex as ghosts would have to be is absurd to me.
 
2013-02-03 02:19:51 AM  

Ed Grubermann: Rufus Lee King: How is everyone so sure that there aren't ghosts?

Well, there's the fact that there's no mechanism that we know of by which they can function. Being dead and all.


Fixed. Yes, the body is dead. But where does the ordered energy of the mind go? Dissipates? Probably, usually. But as an ex-ET in the Navy, I can tell you that it is possible to temporarily stabilize an ordered energy charge. It takes more than a bit of complicated circuitry for us to do that. Not sure what it might take for nature to do it (here on Earth). I think I read a while back somewhere that astronomers think the Sun might have stable (ordered) plasma fields that last for various lengths of time, and could theoretically contain information.

I think there comes a point where hysterical skepticism can hurt the scientific method and the advance of science. Howl about and ridicule something enough and it takes much longer to decide to seriously study it, and - if it turns out to be true - to accept and profit from it. You might want to touch base with the shade of Alfred Wegener about that, if he's not too busy having the last laugh.
 
2013-02-03 02:22:46 AM  

Ivan Tudor C McHock: ThrobblefootSpectre: Myria: Atheism is the most depressing of the religions.

Not the most depressing, I would say.

The idea that someone/thing is watching and judging me sinful when I masturbate is depressing.  The idea that some nice guy got brutally tortured to death for my personal sins is very very depressing.  The worst most ridiculous thing you can say about atheism is that it's as irrational as religion.  Which is okay too, since people are irrational - every last person.  Anyone who claims to be the embodiment of logic without emotion is lying to you, and very probably themselves.

My only real complaint about atheism is that so many of it's followers are so utterly arrogant, self-righteous, self-important, and evangelistic.


My complaint about atheism is that you can't say you are an atheist without 'agnostics' who don't understand how prefixes work adding a shiatload of extra assumptions about your beliefs.

I am not a theist.
 
2013-02-03 02:27:39 AM  

Ivan Tudor C McHock: Just Another OC Homeless Guy: ItchyMcDoogle: Came for the smug leaving with a years supply of smug after only 22 posts.

Not saying I believe in ghosts but when you get around my age if you have not seen one or two things you cant explain then sucks for you.

This.

Really? This?

If that sentence read the same, except the word "ghosts" was replaced any of "tooth fairy", "spaghetti monster" or  any other fictional character ever created,would you have given it a "this"? If not, why not?


Your ability to handle context sucks. There are gazillions of anecdotal accounts of ghosts. There are very few about tooth fairies and the FSM. I personally have seen a couple of things that I can't explain (see other post in this thread) and neither involves either tooth fairies or the FSM. They MAY involve ghosts - or possibly previously unknown physical laws (Einstein, for example. formulated a previously unknown physical law, so I assume that doing so is possible in the future). All I can say for certain is that I know of no physical cause for them.
 
2013-02-03 02:34:04 AM  

ThrobblefootSpectre: My only real complaint about atheism is that so many of it's followers are so utterly arrogant, self-righteous, self-important, and evangelistic.


It's hard to be humble when you're right.
 
2013-02-03 02:36:58 AM  

Ed Grubermann: ThrobblefootSpectre: My only real complaint about atheism is that so many of it's followers are so utterly arrogant, self-righteous, self-important, and evangelistic.

It's hard to be humble when you're right.


Just every now and then, ask yourself "What if I'm wrong, though? Won't I look really stupid?"
 
2013-02-03 02:37:39 AM  

Smackledorfer: Ivan Tudor C McHock: ThrobblefootSpectre: Myria: Atheism is the most depressing of the religions.

Not the most depressing, I would say.

The idea that someone/thing is watching and judging me sinful when I masturbate is depressing.  The idea that some nice guy got brutally tortured to death for my personal sins is very very depressing.  The worst most ridiculous thing you can say about atheism is that it's as irrational as religion.  Which is okay too, since people are irrational - every last person.  Anyone who claims to be the embodiment of logic without emotion is lying to you, and very probably themselves.

My only real complaint about atheism is that so many of it's followers are so utterly arrogant, self-righteous, self-important, and evangelistic.

My complaint about atheism is that you can't say you are an atheist without 'agnostics' who don't understand how prefixes work adding a shiatload of extra assumptions about your beliefs.

I am not a theist.


Your complaint should be about agnostics, not atheists.

Agreed, it is surprising how many people simply do not understand what the word means. Although I suspect many of those choose not to understand it as it suits their fundie agenda.

A word to agnostics: you are atheists. If someone asked you "do you believe in god(s)?" -your answer would presumably be "I don't know" or "no". Either one of those answers makes you an atheist.

Most agnostics would confidently believe that there is no tooth fairy, but when it comes to an almost infinitely more absurd story, that of god, they suddenly become all wishy washy & open minded & agnostic. Whatever degree of confidence you have that the tooth fairy does not exist, you can be vastly more confident that god does not exist.
 
2013-02-03 02:38:20 AM  

Myria: However, relativity had a much smaller impact on science than Newton's theory.


Now that is comedy.

I think that there won't be all that much new discovered in physics this century

I love statements like this. They always come from a position of arrogance and they are always wrong.

As a result of human understanding of physics approaching completeness

Not even close. Thing is, every time we figure something out, it results in the discovery of more things to understand.
 
2013-02-03 02:38:46 AM  

Gyrfalcon: FloydA: The experience is real. It's the interpretation that I'm questioning.

Exactly (and allowing for your current state of intoxication).

And, you know, vice versa is true too.
The people who insist that their experience WAS real and there cannot possibly be any alternative explanation for it (in other words, it WAS a ghost [demon, alien]) and anyone who offers a commonsense rationale is just in denial about the existence of another plane of being or God or whatever...they are equally smug in their own way.

That you had an experience of some sort is in no way diminished by the fact that it wasn't the ghost of Aunt Mary come to tell you that Heaven is really a wonderful place. But I, at least, am totally willing to accept you DID have an experience that made you believe that it was Aunt Mary and affected you in some profound way--that should be enough for both of us. And yet for many people on both sides of the discussion, it's just not.


Interesting, interesting, really I have a friend that believes he just moved out of a haunted house and told me some weird stories. I don't know if he was putting me on or what but he did seem to believe it all and yea I wanted to be all rational and well some things that just didn't work with.

I don't know everything and the universe is strange so...
 
2013-02-03 02:39:20 AM  

Gyrfalcon: Ed Grubermann: ThrobblefootSpectre: My only real complaint about atheism is that so many of it's followers are so utterly arrogant, self-righteous, self-important, and evangelistic.

It's hard to be humble when you're right.

Just every now and then, ask yourself "What if I'm wrong, though? Won't I look really stupid?"


I'm never wrong. About anything. Evar!

/Jesus, learn to spot a joke.
 
2013-02-03 02:42:31 AM  

Smackledorfer: GammaTitan: I find it laughable that there are so many who are so sure the phenomena ghosts don't exist because it can't be quantified and measured. That the only 'proof' that they exist is from first hand stories and less than clear audio and video evidence.

95% of the universe is a 'ghost'.

We don't know what 95% of the universe is. It can't be quantified or measured. We can only tell something is there by evidence by objects millions of light years away in their movement. In fact, their movement defies our known laws of physics and mathematics. That what we can only see the electro-magnetic spectrum (and in some cases, we've only been able to see parts of it in any detail in the last 10 years) - and only see how it was millions or billions of years ago. We keep on finding things in the universe that oppose what we 'know' - the universe isn't old enough to have supermassive black holes at the center of almost every single galaxy or the Lyman alpha blobs are too large to exist in the time the universe had existed, for example.

Does this mean ghosts exist? No. Does it mean I believe in ghosts.No? It means I don't NOT believe in them. It means that I keep an open mind. Open enough to know that what we 'know' today may not be what we know tomorrow. I think we occasionally get a little egotistical in what we know when, in fact we really know very little.

I find it laughable that people pretend to be intellectual about stuff when in reality all they did was change the definition of the topic and then speak about something unrelated.

A "ghost" is not defined as "anything we don't know all about" anymore than an apple's definition is the same as a fruit.

You can speak again when you master venn diagrams and work from there. Sorry if I'm cranky but wtf man.


Okay, got venn diagrams mastered. Thanks. Now - lets get back to the subject at hand. The fact that people think that we know everything and that if it goes against what we 'know' - well, they are idiots.

I used the ghost/universe analogy as that, an analogy. That the analogy by the definition of some of those definitions fall into the same as the definition of the universe.What we are seeing, we don't understand. We can't define it. We aren't even sure we are understanding what we are seeing. Their very existences violate our laws of science. We can't actively test in a lab what we know and we have to often wait for spontaneous events to occur to further our understanding.

Sorry I was unable to reach you in my attempt to bridge the two subjects to show how because one is considered 'mainstream' it's study is accepted, yet paranormal studies and it's 'fringe' label gets discarded - and why its important to keep an open mind because what we 'know', changes . I wasn't trying to change subjects - Sorry for angering you. Peace.
 
2013-02-03 02:49:22 AM  

gimmegimme: C_Canuk: gimmegimme:


What is more important to you?  Believing things that are true?  Or believing things that are pleasant to you?


false premise

1) I pointed out your dickishness makes people tune you out. If presenting the truth is important to you, being a cock is counter productive.

2) You fail to realize that I support the truth just not dickishness that appears to drive an egotistical disorder. This is not an either or question. In fact the two are barely linked.

3) Whether you are a dick about it or not, the truth holds no malice or sarcasm, it feels no anguish over those that do not see it, if feels no need to belittle, or talk down at those that do not know it from an ivory tower. The truth simply is. Therefore any dickishness is a property of the messenger, not the message.
 
2013-02-03 02:50:48 AM  

Just Another OC Homeless Guy: Ivan Tudor C McHock: Just Another OC Homeless Guy: ItchyMcDoogle: Came for the smug leaving with a years supply of smug after only 22 posts.

Not saying I believe in ghosts but when you get around my age if you have not seen one or two things you cant explain then sucks for you.

This.

Really? This?

If that sentence read the same, except the word "ghosts" was replaced any of "tooth fairy", "spaghetti monster" or  any other fictional character ever created,would you have given it a "this"? If not, why not?

Your ability to handle context sucks. There are gazillions of anecdotal accounts of ghosts. There are very few about tooth fairies and the FSM. I personally have seen a couple of things that I can't explain (see other post in this thread) and neither involves either tooth fairies or the FSM. They MAY involve ghosts - or possibly previously unknown physical laws (Einstein, for example. formulated a previously unknown physical law, so I assume that doing so is possible in the future). All I can say for certain is that I know of no physical cause for them.


Your ability to grasp the point sucks. As does your awareness of the fact that popular opinion does not add a nanogram of weight to an argument. And the very fact that there have indeed been gazillions of  anecdotal accounts of ghosts,  every one of which has been accompanied by a complete lack of evidence, should tell you that ghosts are a crock of should.
 
2013-02-03 02:55:39 AM  
Maybe we're living in a virtual simulation set up by aliens or a superpowerful AI and ghosts are just bugs in the system.

Man, I need another bonghit.
 
2013-02-03 03:11:23 AM  

fusillade762: Maybe we're living in a virtual simulation set up by aliens or a superpowerful AI and ghosts are just bugs in the system.

Man, I need another bonghit.


Can I get a hit off that cause man it's been awhile : )
I really could use some of that right now.
/I want to believe : )
 
2013-02-03 03:28:09 AM  
God damn, this is awesome. The people who appeal to science the most seem to have the worst understanding of it.
 
2013-02-03 03:31:19 AM  
Belief in ghosts has ruined the SyFy channel.
 
2013-02-03 03:32:53 AM  

Myria: I think humanity has discovered most of the fundamental rules of the Universe. I doubt that there is something major that is missing.

Science is a game of diminishing returns. The impact of Newton's theory of gravitation on the understanding of the Universe was huge. It was inaccurate in extreme cases, and Einstein and Lorentz provided a more-accurate theory of gravity. However, relativity had a much smaller impact on science than Newton's theory. The next thing in gravity will probably be a theory of quantum gravity. Relativity is also wrong in its own extreme cases. Again, though, quantum gravity will have far less of an impact than relativity. It will just fix a few corner cases.

I think that there won't be all that much new discovered in physics this century - I am guessing that the biggest advances will be in reverse engineering complex systems built upon physics. In other words, biology.

As a result of human understanding of physics approaching completeness, there are not that many phenomena that are unexplained. The major ones have answers already. That there exists a phenomena as complex as ghosts would have to be is absurd to me.


Blah blah I think Einstein summed it up best "there are only 2 things I believe to be infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and Im not so sure about the first"
 
2013-02-03 03:52:03 AM  

Ivan Tudor C McHock: Just Another OC Homeless Guy: Ivan Tudor C McHock: Just Another OC Homeless Guy: ItchyMcDoogle: Came for the smug leaving with a years supply of smug after only 22 posts.

Not saying I believe in ghosts but when you get around my age if you have not seen one or two things you cant explain then sucks for you.

This.

Really? This?

If that sentence read the same, except the word "ghosts" was replaced any of "tooth fairy", "spaghetti monster" or  any other fictional character ever created,would you have given it a "this"? If not, why not?

Your ability to handle context sucks. There are gazillions of anecdotal accounts of ghosts. There are very few about tooth fairies and the FSM. I personally have seen a couple of things that I can't explain (see other post in this thread) and neither involves either tooth fairies or the FSM. They MAY involve ghosts - or possibly previously unknown physical laws (Einstein, for example. formulated a previously unknown physical law, so I assume that doing so is possible in the future). All I can say for certain is that I know of no physical cause for them.

Your ability to grasp the point sucks. As does your awareness of the fact that popular opinion does not add a nanogram of weight to an argument. And the very fact that there have indeed been gazillions of  anecdotal accounts of ghosts,  every one of which has been accompanied by a complete lack of evidence, should tell you that ghosts are a crock of should.


Lack of evidence? Or lack of repeatability under controlled conditions? Remember that the first step in any scientific endeavor is human observation (aka anecdotal data.) Science isn't a monolithic arbiter of truth vs falsehood. It's a tool that we humans use to investigate our perceptions about the world.

Saying "I do not believe in ghosts" is fine, and a perfectly reasonable position for most people. Saying "I know ghosts do not and cannot exist" is silly.
 
2013-02-03 04:03:09 AM  

Ed Grubermann: Gyrfalcon: Ed Grubermann: ThrobblefootSpectre: My only real complaint about atheism is that so many of it's followers are so utterly arrogant, self-righteous, self-important, and evangelistic.

It's hard to be humble when you're right.

Just every now and then, ask yourself "What if I'm wrong, though? Won't I look really stupid?"

I'm never wrong. About anything. Evar!

/Jesus, learn to spot a joke.


Oo, and back atcha. Maybe you're a tad more egocentric than you think you are.
 
2013-02-03 07:41:00 AM  
So I guess GhostBusters was a documentary, then?
 
2013-02-03 08:42:02 AM  

Dow Jones and the Temple of Doom: Ivan Tudor C McHock: Just Another OC Homeless Guy: Ivan Tudor C McHock: Just Another OC Homeless Guy: ItchyMcDoogle: Came for the smug leaving with a years supply of smug after only 22 posts.

Not saying I believe in ghosts but when you get around my age if you have not seen one or two things you cant explain then sucks for you.

This.

Really? This?

If that sentence read the same, except the word "ghosts" was replaced any of "tooth fairy", "spaghetti monster" or  any other fictional character ever created,would you have given it a "this"? If not, why not?

Your ability to handle context sucks. There are gazillions of anecdotal accounts of ghosts. There are very few about tooth fairies and the FSM. I personally have seen a couple of things that I can't explain (see other post in this thread) and neither involves either tooth fairies or the FSM. They MAY involve ghosts - or possibly previously unknown physical laws (Einstein, for example. formulated a previously unknown physical law, so I assume that doing so is possible in the future). All I can say for certain is that I know of no physical cause for them.

Your ability to grasp the point sucks. As does your awareness of the fact that popular opinion does not add a nanogram of weight to an argument. And the very fact that there have indeed been gazillions of  anecdotal accounts of ghosts,  every one of which has been accompanied by a complete lack of evidence, should tell you that ghosts are a crock of should.

Lack of evidence? Or lack of repeatability under controlled conditions? Remember that the first step in any scientific endeavor is human observation (aka anecdotal data.) Science isn't a monolithic arbiter of truth vs falsehood. It's a tool that we humans use to investigate our perceptions about the world.

Saying "I do not believe in ghosts" is fine, and a perfectly reasonable position for most people. Saying "I know ghosts do not and cannot exist" is silly.


Exactly. Everyone thought Newton had solved it all until Einstein came by and rewrote the rules, and with all the new theories and discoveries someone will rewrite the rules again. A good example of something we know exists but barely understand is gravity. Eventually I would assume we will truly understand it.

I think most of the backlash against the paranormal is a lot of people's deep resentment against representatives of "fundamental" Christianity and authority in general. But if the paranormal is proven normal, then what? The only people that have anything to lose is hack magicians that think they are the archangels of reason.
 
2013-02-03 09:03:38 AM  

C_Canuk: let each party write 100 sets of 3 simple questions that the voter needs to get 80% on each party's set to vote. The questions and answers would have to be approved by the other parties.


This is an interesting proposal.  It would certainly create a circus of finger pointing and bickering.  While I dont think 100% of people would see the ensuing chaos for what is is, it would hopefully shake enough voters out of their partisanship that they'd start seeing their elected officials for what they are, so hopelessly mired in groupthink that logic and reason is beyond them.
 
2013-02-03 09:44:37 AM  

Sgygus: Ghost bit my sister.


Where?
 
2013-02-03 09:47:51 AM  

wee: More than that believe in a god.  Some even believe that this invisible man in the sky will listen to them and do shiat for them.  They live their lives in the context of this imaginary friend advising them.  They give money to people who talk to them about this magical being.

That's far worse than believing in ghosts.


Actually, you can't believe in God as a Christian without believing in ghosts and the afterlife, evil spirits, that sort of thing. What I find hard to believe is that someone could actually go through life blind enough to not see that there is some higher power at work regardless of whether or not it fits any known religious belief. The simple fact that every culture that exists or has ever existed whether in contact with another culture or isolated, believes that a God exists. Personally, I am not egotistical enough to think that they are all wrong.
 
2013-02-03 09:49:28 AM  
4.bp.blogspot.com

I SAW SOMETHING NAWSTY IN THE WOODSHED!!!
 
2013-02-03 09:59:30 AM  

Terrydatroll: wee: More than that believe in a god.  Some even believe that this invisible man in the sky will listen to them and do shiat for them.  They live their lives in the context of this imaginary friend advising them.  They give money to people who talk to them about this magical being.

That's far worse than believing in ghosts.

Actually, you can't believe in God as a Christian without believing in ghosts and the afterlife, evil spirits, that sort of thing. What I find hard to believe is that someone could actually go through life blind enough to not see that there is some higher power at work regardless of whether or not it fits any known religious belief. The simple fact that every culture that exists or has ever existed whether in contact with another culture or isolated, believes that a God exists. Personally, I am not egotistical enough to think that they are all wrong.


That is supposed to be proof?

If religion being ubiquitous isproof of anything it is that humans "need" religion because it comforts them. Something to fall back on in hard times. Consoles them in the face of death.

It has nothing to do with it being true or not.
 
2013-02-03 10:20:52 AM  
this thread is funny.  i love how the emotional need to allow for the possibility of god permits all sorts of rational loopholes, like ghosts and presumably dragons, elves and unicorns.  if you're going to be absurd, you might as well go all the way.  it seems people do this by adopting some philosophy of relativistic perception, as if reality is defined by one's feelings about it.  notice that you aren't consulted before major scientific undertakings: it's actually because your feelings  don't have a bearing on reality.  pro-tip: map vs. territory.  there is an objective truth, an objective reality, of which we may have limited perception, but which nonetheless exists.  if you deny this, and to clarify what i mean, go walk on air of your on will power.  your feelings about reality do not alter it.  suggesting that ghosts, god, dragons are viable candidates for belief is to suggest that mere thought alone qualifies something to exist in reality, barring any empirical proof or rational imperative.

and those claiming "string theory is incomplete, therefore string theorists are dogmatic / believers / unscientific  / faithful," or any other such conflation between faith in the supernatural and due scientific process, are fools.  the difference is that while string theory isn't proven, there is a reality-based rationale and evidence for it, founded on more established scientific ground.

while on the surface this topic is ghosts, it's more generally about rationality and evidence and faith and belief.  the divide between pro-ghost people and anti-ghost is the same as theist and atheist: faith v. science, belief v. reason, emotion v. proof.  if you think there is any rational difference between believing in ghosts and god, you don't understand what rationality means.

and for the guy up there who said being irrational and stupid are different things: how?  "stupid" is an inaccurate behavior descriptor (like 'evil' or 'good'), which can really only describe the difference between one's beliefs and reality, given the information available to the one holding the belief.  to hone in on it, stupidity IS the measure of one's irrationality.  still not a useful explanatory term since the kind of 'free will' necessary to merit one 'stupid' or 'smart' doesn't exist, but if we're going to use them, understand we're really describing one's rationality.
 
2013-02-03 10:34:20 AM  

GammaTitan: Smackledorfer: GammaTitan: I find it laughable that there are so many who are so sure the phenomena ghosts don't exist because it can't be quantified and measured. That the only 'proof' that they exist is from first hand stories and less than clear audio and video evidence.

95% of the universe is a 'ghost'.

We don't know what 95% of the universe is. It can't be quantified or measured. We can only tell something is there by evidence by objects millions of light years away in their movement. In fact, their movement defies our known laws of physics and mathematics. That what we can only see the electro-magnetic spectrum (and in some cases, we've only been able to see parts of it in any detail in the last 10 years) - and only see how it was millions or billions of years ago. We keep on finding things in the universe that oppose what we 'know' - the universe isn't old enough to have supermassive black holes at the center of almost every single galaxy or the Lyman alpha blobs are too large to exist in the time the universe had existed, for example.

Does this mean ghosts exist? No. Does it mean I believe in ghosts.No? It means I don't NOT believe in them. It means that I keep an open mind. Open enough to know that what we 'know' today may not be what we know tomorrow. I think we occasionally get a little egotistical in what we know when, in fact we really know very little.

I find it laughable that people pretend to be intellectual about stuff when in reality all they did was change the definition of the topic and then speak about something unrelated.

A "ghost" is not defined as "anything we don't know all about" anymore than an apple's definition is the same as a fruit.

You can speak again when you master venn diagrams and work from there. Sorry if I'm cranky but wtf man.

Okay, got venn diagrams mastered. Thanks. Now - lets get back to the subject at hand. The fact that people think that we know everything and that if it goes against what we 'know' - well, they are idiots.

I used the ghost/universe analogy as that, an analogy. That the analogy by the definition of some of those definitions fall into the same as the definition of the universe.What we are seeing, we don't understand. We can't define it. We aren't even sure we are understanding what we are seeing. Their very existences violate our laws of science. We can't actively test in a lab what we know and we have to often wait for spontaneous events to occur to further our understanding.

Sorry I was unable to reach you in my attempt to bridge the two subjects to show how because one is considered 'mainstream' it's study is accepted, yet paranormal studies and it's 'fringe' label gets discarded - and why its important to keep an open mind because what we 'know', changes . I wasn't trying to change subjects - Sorry for angering you. Peace.


You reached me fine. However it is a srrawman to twist "there are no ghosts" to "there are no things we don't understand". NOBODY in this thread, or in my entire life, has claimed the latter.
 
2013-02-03 11:03:13 AM  

Kit Fister: Baryogenesis: Kit Fister: Two hundred years ago if you said all matter was made of tiny particles, and that we could harness these particles to provide energy and a host of other things, you'd be laughed out of existence.

It makes me both sad and astounded that people are so sure that ghosts, god, whatever doesn't exist that they use it to belittle and browbeat anyone who isn't like them.

You know what makes me sad?  Folks who don't understand WHY popular and scientific opinion about the existence of sub atomic particles moved from "that's ridiculous" to "well, duh".  Evidence is the reason.  When there is no evidence for your pet hypothesis and mountains of evidence against it then it's irrational to continue to believe in it.  Folks who do think ghosts exist should, by all means, test their beliefs, but they shouldn't assert ghosts exist without good evidence.

You know what else makes me sad? Comparing the state of science 200 years ago to a topic today.  We understand the underlying physics of the "everyday" world incredibly well now and that, obviously, wasn't the case 200 years ago.  Overturning conventional science (ex. ghosts exist) today would take some truly phenomenal new evidence.  The same could not be said of overturning conventional science 200 years ago.

So we should all want to be just like you, unable to conceive of things larger than what science can prove?


We should believe what we have good reasons to believe based on evidence, math or logic.  Open mindedness is a matter of changing one's opinion based on reasoning and evidence instead of stubbornly refusing.  Open mindedness is not about believing in just any old thing.  If you bring me good evidence for ghosts, homeopathy, bigfoot etc. then I'll believe it.


Tatterdemalian: Baryogenesis: cgremlin: People can believe or not believe whatever they want.  It makes no difference to me.  I know what I've experienced, and I also know there's not a "rational" explanation for it.  If someone wants to think I'm irrational or otherwise mentally deficient because they've not personally experienced the same thing, that's their problem.

I don't think anyone would tell you that you didn't have your "experience", but rather your interpretation of said experience is likely flawed.  The human brain just isn't all that reliable.

Tatterdemalian: Do you believe in wealth, laws, promises? None of those are real.

You're just confusing physical and real. Concepts, like laws, are useful abstractions, but they don't have physical forms.  The concept of a ghost is real (we understand the meaning and can explain it to others), but the "physical" manifestation is not.

I don't consider "useful" synonymous with "real."

/nor do I consider "imaginary" synonymous with "useless."
//I do find great amusement at watching some FARKers twist themselves in logical knots trying to find a way to differentiate economics, legal systems, and culture from the religious practices they hate with every fiber of their being, though
///Ed Gruberman, for example, had to switch the subject of one sentence with its adjective, and drop another line completely, to resolve his cognitive dissonance and pretend I was making strawmen


You still need to differentiate between real as a concept and real as a physical thing even if you don't want to call the former "real".  Believing in a concept is very different than believing something exists physically which is the problem you ran into when you attempted to trip people up about not believing in ghosts but believing in abstractions or concepts like the law.
 
2013-02-03 11:15:21 AM  

Smackledorfer: You reached me fine. However it is a srrawman to twist "there are no ghosts" to "there are no things we don't understand". NOBODY in this thread, or in my entire life, has claimed the latter.


I think the issue, that I so poorly argued, is that we turn "we don't understand the phenomenon" into a prejudgement. Sort of like saying.."well, we have no explanation, it could've been electromagnetic radiation, it could've been mass hallucinations, it could've been some guy having a very bad day...but it most CERTAINLY could NOT have been ghosts."

I'm just saying, until proven what it IS, only personal judgement and prejudice defines what it CAN'T be.
 
2013-02-03 11:30:26 AM  

Ivan Tudor C McHock: Just Another OC Homeless Guy: Ivan Tudor C McHock: Just Another OC Homeless Guy: ItchyMcDoogle: Came for the smug leaving with a years supply of smug after only 22 posts.

Not saying I believe in ghosts but when you get around my age if you have not seen one or two things you cant explain then sucks for you.

This.

Really? This?

If that sentence read the same, except the word "ghosts" was replaced any of "tooth fairy", "spaghetti monster" or  any other fictional character ever created,would you have given it a "this"? If not, why not?

Your ability to handle context sucks. There are gazillions of anecdotal accounts of ghosts. There are very few about tooth fairies and the FSM. I personally have seen a couple of things that I can't explain (see other post in this thread) and neither involves either tooth fairies or the FSM. They MAY involve ghosts - or possibly previously unknown physical laws (Einstein, for example. formulated a previously unknown physical law, so I assume that doing so is possible in the future). All I can say for certain is that I know of no physical cause for them.

Your ability to grasp the point sucks. As does your awareness of the fact that popular opinion does not add a nanogram of weight to an argument. And the very fact that there have indeed been gazillions of  anecdotal accounts of ghosts,  every one of which has been accompanied by a complete lack of evidence, should tell you that ghosts are a crock of should.


>>>>>As does your awareness of the fact that popular opinion does not add a nanogram of weight to an argument.

Just as a wild-assed guess, from reading your other posts, I'd bet a buck or two that you're a firm believer in Global Warming, and probably AGW. Am I right? It goes with the total "package."  (Also , it's funny how I can guess virtually 100% of the time the entire politics of other atheists when I go with my wife to her atheist meetups. So predictable. My wife and I laugh about it.) Anyway, I digress. does your above sentiment about popular opinion apply to the population subset of "the vast majority of scientists" who believe in AGW?

No? Didn't think so. (Again, check with the shade of Alfred Wegener.)

>>>>....anecdotal accounts of ghosts,  every one of which has been accompanied by a complete lack of evidence

True. At least evidence as defined by the scientific method. But as I have pointed out, I myself have had two encounters (electric shaver, radio station change) that I can't explain. Since I didn't have a ton of shielded and glitch-proof recording gear handy when they occurred, the only evidence I have is anecdotal.

>>>>.....should tell you that ghosts are a crock of should.

A crock of should? You probably meant to type something else. But as I said, I can't and won't dismiss the evidence of my own, rational senses simply because it does not fit into your personal view of reality.

Then again, perhaps it is various sound frequencies generated by nearby machinery that is causing shared hallucinations of shavers turning on and radio station dials moving themselves. I understand that errant sound waves is one of the currently fashionable scientific theories to explain ghost sightings.

Or maybe it's aliens?

Or God?

Or maybe I'm getting tired of talking to you and your carefully nurtured arrogance. Why don't you complain to the mods and get my posts deleted? That seems to also be in fashion these days.
 
2013-02-03 11:35:59 AM  

Kit Fister: Smackledorfer: You reached me fine. However it is a srrawman to twist "there are no ghosts" to "there are no things we don't understand". NOBODY in this thread, or in my entire life, has claimed the latter.

I think the issue, that I so poorly argued, is that we turn "we don't understand the phenomenon" into a prejudgement. Sort of like saying.."well, we have no explanation, it could've been electromagnetic radiation, it could've been mass hallucinations, it could've been some guy having a very bad day...but it most CERTAINLY could NOT have been ghosts."

I'm just saying, until proven what it IS, only personal judgement and prejudice defines what it CAN'T be.


There is no reason to believe ghosts exist, so I do not.

For what it's worth, I consider 'overzealous brain response to stimuli' to be an explanation, not "no explanation".  We know people see faces and other stuff where there aren't any (unless you now want to add jesus-face-on-toast to your list of things I should be open-minded about).  We know people overreact to stimuli when scared and get jumpy.  We know we can manipulate people in those situations, and we know that some people are more likely to experience these 'phenomena' than others (look at all the weirdo ghost hunters out there, or the folks who pay psychic friends).  There is, therefore, zero cause to believe in a ghost.  We also know that memories change as you remember them over and over.  This isn't limited to memories of supernatural stuff, but even normal every day things.  The next time a major event like 9-11 occurs, write down everything you can about when you heard about it the same day it happens (or as close to it as possible).  Then a year later do it again and compare notes.  You might be surprised.  Or take a disaster event that you and others have been through.  have both parties individually write down their memories and then compare them.

All you are doing here is trying to walk it back as far from actual ghosts as you possibly can and then talk up some nebulous concept of open-mindedness that apparently nobody in this thread is properly understanding (or that you are constantly tweaking as we go). Feel free to pick a phenomenon of your choosing and I guarantee you there is a more plausible explanation than magic, spirits, energy, etc. There is a definite reason people taking your tactic get as far from ghosts as you can, and it is because you know there is no reason to believe in them.  You admit this yourself.  So instead you try to change the argument to something else entirely while presenting yourself as superior to all those filthy close-minded non-believers. Then upon being challenged you fall back on the kind of statements that a philosopher major who just smoked a bowl would make (I like philosophy mind you, but not high philosophy)

Kit Fister: I'm just saying, until proven what it IS, only personal judgement and prejudice defines what it CAN'T be.


This is simply false.  Things can be proven to be false without finding the truth.  A not-truth can be proven a not-truth. Now granted, not everything can be proven false.  I can't prove the invisible mass-less dragons don't live in your furnace.  At the same time, I'm absolutely willing to accept the egg on my face when science advances to the point that said dragons are proven to exist.
 
2013-02-03 11:40:03 AM  

Kit Fister: Why dismiss out of hand that which is unproven (and poorly studied because it is dismissed out of hand) simply because we have no evidence because we have no reliable, empirical studies to draw from?


Quick, name something that you feel has been dismissed out of hand.  Please name something you think hasn't been given its scientific due process.

Just Another OC Homeless Guy: The laws of physics and biology? Which ones? Newton's Laws? Or Einstein's, which proved Newton to be wrong. Darwin's evolutionary theory? Or what about the complications to that suggested by Lynn Margulis? And let's not even discuss the possibilities being suggested by quantum and string field theorists that may apply to both physics and biology.  Do you actually have the naive chutzpah to say that we know everything? We know less about the human brain than about the moons of Saturn.


Sorry to break it to you, but we know more than you think.  And we don't have to know everything about everything to point out ghosts aren't real and that there is no immaterial soul (or residual energy field or whatever you want to call it) which is responsible for consciousness and survives brain death.

Here is the Dirac Equation, which describes electrons:  blogs.scientificamerican.com

Please point out where the term for "interaction with the immaterial soul" is at.

 In order to say that there is a soul and it is the seat of our consciousness, personality, memory, etc and interacts with the physical world then you have to say this equation isn't right.  This is the problem with the "science hasn't discovered" everything argument when debating in favor of supernatural and pseudo scientific phenomena   Those phenomena aren't just confined to a realm where our science has yet to tread.  These supposedly supernatural phenomena are being "witnessed" in the everyday world!  Guess what? We know the physics of the everyday world pretty damn well.  In order to posit the existence of ghosts or the continuation of a mind beyond bodily death you have to trample on well established physics.
 
2013-02-03 11:45:21 AM  
What I am finding both fascinating and depressing is the apparently increasing rigidity and compartmentalization of scientific thinking. I've noticed it in some of the science journals, and it shows up here on Fark by what seems to be an arrogant presumption that there are really no mysteries left. "The science is settled and unless you believe X you are a moron and a fool....blah blah blah."  Some "scientists" and what I call "science groupies" who sharpen their self esteem by downputting others are beginning to sound like theologians. The science is never settled.
 
2013-02-03 11:48:58 AM  

Kit Fister: Smackledorfer: You reached me fine. However it is a srrawman to twist "there are no ghosts" to "there are no things we don't understand". NOBODY in this thread, or in my entire life, has claimed the latter.

I think the issue, that I so poorly argued, is that we turn "we don't understand the phenomenon" into a prejudgement. Sort of like saying.."well, we have no explanation, it could've been electromagnetic radiation, it could've been mass hallucinations, it could've been some guy having a very bad day...but it most CERTAINLY could NOT have been ghosts."

I'm just saying, until proven what it IS, only personal judgement and prejudice defines what it CAN'T be.


If we put all those possible explanations on a scale of how probable they are then ghosts would be somewhere at .0001%.  At what point can we just say unexplained phenomena X wasn't a ghost without having to hem and haw over it technically not being completely metaphysically impossible?  We know that science doesn't deal in absolutes, but at some point of extreme improbability it's okay to simply say, "it's not X" instead of "X is exceedingly unlikely and would violate everything we know about physics, but it's not impossible".
 
2013-02-03 11:58:11 AM  

Rufus Lee King: Unrelated to ghosts and that, will some of you be a little more succinct with your posts? You're giving me a godamned headache.


Brevity is the ghost of wit.

I'll never stop being amused by anti-intellectual claims that atheism is somehow "as bad as religious fundamentalism" or "agnostics'" failed, anti-intellectual attempts to be clever, different, and compromising in their position that a total lack of evidence and violation of scientific laws nevertheless leave a realistic possibility that a claim is still true.

Why defend a dismissal of empirical reasoning?  Do the same people do this in their daily decision-making?  Do you dismiss evidence or contradict a lack of it when making decisions about your children and finances?
 
2013-02-03 12:03:41 PM  

Baryogenesis: If we put all those possible explanations on a scale of how probable they are then ghosts would be somewhere at .0001%. At what point can we just say unexplained phenomena X wasn't a ghost without having to hem and haw over it technically not being completely metaphysically impossible? We know that science doesn't deal in absolutes, but at some point of extreme improbability it's okay to simply say, "it's not X" instead of "X is exceedingly unlikely and would violate everything we know about physics, but it's not impossible".


Okay, I'll agree with that.
 
2013-02-03 12:13:44 PM  

St_Francis_P: ecmoRandomNumbers: Don't believe in ghosts, but have seen weird shiat.

I've always wanted to see one, but never have. The strangest thing I've seen is my mom answer the phone before it rang. Twice. Each time it was my brother calling. She claimed she did it all the time. I was seriously wondering if she weighed more than a duck.


For those sensible and humorous posts you are making the faves :)


/Subby is not very bright.
 
2013-02-03 12:16:27 PM  

Just Another OC Homeless Guy: What I am finding both fascinating and depressing is the apparently increasing rigidity and compartmentalization of scientific thinking. I've noticed it in some of the science journals, and it shows up here on Fark by what seems to be an arrogant presumption that there are really no mysteries left. "The science is settled and unless you believe X you are a moron and a fool....blah blah blah."  Some "scientists" and what I call "science groupies" who sharpen their self esteem by downputting others are beginning to sound like theologians. The science is never settled.


You're confusing our incomplete knowledge of how physical forces combine to operate on higher levels (a single neuron vs. the entire brain) with a dismantling of basic physics itself.  You're confusing refining and updating the frontiers of science based on better evidence with discarding well established science under the guise of "open mindedness".  The arrogant presumption comes from folks like you who know nothing about the subjects that their pet hypothesis contradict.  We understand the four fundamental forces.  There is no term for "ghostly interaction".  There's no mystery about how an electron behaves in "everyday" situations.  You're not forging some new frontier of science by suggesting some unknown force that has never shown up in any experiments.  What you're actually doing is shiatting all over the scientific process you claim to be advancing because you don't realize how much of our scientific understanding would have to be wrong for you to be right.

Believing in a soul or ghosts means you need a whole new branch of physics.  What, exactly, is a ghost? What particles are ghosts made of?  What forces govern their behavior? How do these new particles and forces interact with the ones we already know about?  Why have we never detected any of these particles and forces despite the claims of people who see them in the mundane, everyday world?
 
2013-02-03 12:22:12 PM  

Baryogenesis: If we put all those possible explanations on a scale of how probable they are then ghosts would be somewhere at .0001%. At what point can we just say unexplained phenomena X wasn't a ghost without having to hem and haw over it technically not being completely metaphysically impossible? We know that science doesn't deal in absolutes, but at some point of extreme improbability it's okay to simply say, "it's not X" instead of "X is exceedingly unlikely and would violate everything we know about physics, but it's not impossible".


Anyway, I have to argue about flying saucers on the beach with people, you know. And I was interested in this: they keep arguing that it is possible. And that's true. It is possible. They do not appreciate that the problem is not to demonstrate whether it's possible or not but whether it's going on or not. -- Richard Feynman in The Meaning of It All : Thoughts of a Citizen Scientist (1998)
 
2013-02-03 01:05:44 PM  

Baryogenesis: Just Another OC Homeless Guy: What I am finding both fascinating and depressing is the apparently increasing rigidity and compartmentalization of scientific thinking. I've noticed it in some of the science journals, and it shows up here on Fark by what seems to be an arrogant presumption that there are really no mysteries left. "The science is settled and unless you believe X you are a moron and a fool....blah blah blah."  Some "scientists" and what I call "science groupies" who sharpen their self esteem by downputting others are beginning to sound like theologians. The science is never settled.

You're confusing our incomplete knowledge of how physical forces combine to operate on higher levels (a single neuron vs. the entire brain) with a dismantling of basic physics itself.  You're confusing refining and updating the frontiers of science based on better evidence with discarding well established science under the guise of "open mindedness".  The arrogant presumption comes from folks like you who know nothing about the subjects that their pet hypothesis contradict.  We understand the four fundamental forces.  There is no term for "ghostly interaction".  There's no mystery about how an electron behaves in "everyday" situations.  You're not forging some new frontier of science by suggesting some unknown force that has never shown up in any experiments.  What you're actually doing is shiatting all over the scientific process you claim to be advancing because you don't realize how much of our scientific understanding would have to be wrong for you to be right.

Believing in a soul or ghosts means you need a whole new branch of physics.  What, exactly, is a ghost? What particles are ghosts made of?  What forces govern their behavior? How do these new particles and forces interact with the ones we already know about?  Why have we never detected any of these particles and forces despite the claims of people who see them in the mundane, everyday world?


it's a rapist with a penis, obviously..  don't get in their ways if you like not having holes in your virgin skin
 
2013-02-03 01:10:24 PM  

Baryogenesis: Just Another OC Homeless Guy: What I am finding both fascinating and depressing is the apparently increasing rigidity and compartmentalization of scientific thinking. I've noticed it in some of the science journals, and it shows up here on Fark by what seems to be an arrogant presumption that there are really no mysteries left. "The science is settled and unless you believe X you are a moron and a fool....blah blah blah."  Some "scientists" and what I call "science groupies" who sharpen their self esteem by downputting others are beginning to sound like theologians. The science is never settled.

You're confusing our incomplete knowledge of how physical forces combine to operate on higher levels (a single neuron vs. the entire brain) with a dismantling of basic physics itself.  You're confusing refining and updating the frontiers of science based on better evidence with discarding well established science under the guise of "open mindedness".  The arrogant presumption comes from folks like you who know nothing about the subjects that their pet hypothesis contradict.  We understand the four fundamental forces.  There is no term for "ghostly interaction".  There's no mystery about how an electron behaves in "everyday" situations.  You're not forging some new frontier of science by suggesting some unknown force that has never shown up in any experiments.  What you're actually doing is shiatting all over the scientific process you claim to be advancing because you don't realize how much of our scientific understanding would have to be wrong for you to be right.

Believing in a soul or ghosts means you need a whole new branch of physics.  What, exactly, is a ghost? What particles are ghosts made of?  What forces govern their behavior? How do these new particles and forces interact with the ones we already know about?  Why have we never detected any of these particles and forces despite the claims of people who see them in the mundane, everyday world?


>>>>The arrogant presumption comes from folks like you .....

LOL! My arrogance? Then in the very next sentence you say: "We understand the four fundamental forces." Really? THE four fundamental forces? Then what did I just read the other day about how some cosmologists now think there may be FIVE or more fundamental forces needed to explain dark matter and dark energy? The "four fundamental forces" interact. If there are more than four then, no, we do NOT understand those four forces.

Again: I really do worry about the arrogance and compartmentalization of many people in science. Saying "we understand it all so X cannot exist" is stupid. The mindset reminds me of zero tolerance school administrators, bank managers that substitute checked boxes and scores for actual, you know, thinking and evaluation, and chain store "managers" who are just glorified sales clerks and are not allowed by God Policy to make any farking decisions about their store.
 
2013-02-03 01:20:54 PM  

ItchyMcDoogle: Came for the smug leaving with a years supply of smug after only 22 posts.

Not saying I believe in ghosts but when you get around my age if you have not seen one or two things you cant explain then sucks for you.


What? You gonna believe some science-twat's arrogant theories or your own lying eyes?
 
2013-02-03 01:23:15 PM  

Rufus Lee King: How is everyone so sure that there aren't ghosts?


The idea is in conflict with their Faith.
 
2013-02-03 01:26:30 PM  

Rufus Lee King: sharpie_69: Rufus Lee King: How is everyone so sure that there aren't ghosts?

How is everyone so sure there isn't a tiny invisible man who watches over your anus as night?

Good comeback. Oh, yeah.


Well, so long as one ignores context and embraces irrational name calling (very scientific, that), than yeah, it's a good comeback.
 
2013-02-03 01:30:20 PM  

Marley'sGirl: 99% of all hauntings are cats.


This is actually a pretty good hypothesis.
 
2013-02-03 01:39:18 PM  

FloydA: Rustblade:

Umm nope. And who exactly said that? You? I don't believe that the souls of people wander around the earth in ghostly linens forever to be repeating their last moments. However I DO believe that certain traumatic and horrific events can leave an "imprint" on certain places.


How?

By what mechanism can a human's emotional trauma be "imprinted" on a place?   What are traumatic emotions made of, and how is that substance transferred from the mind of the individual to the location?


Mmmmmm.... we really don't know, do we. How's this for a radical idea? LET'S FIND OUT IF IT'S POSSIBLE!!!!! LET'S GET CLEVER AND NON-JUDGEMENTAL AND DESIGN SOME EXPERIMENTS! One after the other, eliminate all possibilities. Now  THAT'S science! Assuming a radical hypothesis (one that challenges all of your ego-enhancing college-taught beliefs) might be true and then actually trying to disprove it (instead of hand-waving it away as superstition).   Ooops, no wait. That would require some independent thinking, outside all the pretty little boxes. Can't have that.

This is THE major problem with immortality. The old scientists would never die and would stifle the new ones that challenge the old mindsets. Progress would stop.
 
2013-02-03 01:41:22 PM  

italie: Ed Grubermann: BillCo: Remember folks, everyone who believes in something you don't is a stupid simpleton. Doesn't matter if it's ghost, religion or global warming.  Don't even get me started on aliens.

If you beleive in something that has no evidence and violates the laws of physics and biology, well you're an idiot. Show me the mechanism by which a ghost can exist.

Explain to me how quantum entanglement works, then you can lecture me on how ghosts can't exist.


Thank you. Perfect response.
 
2013-02-03 01:45:13 PM  

fusillade762: Americans believe a lot of stupid shiat. Ghosts, UFOs, Angels, that the Earth is flat, that Republicans can govern responsibly, etc.


It's really funny how you can almost always predict the belief-set on any given subject of a liberal/"progressive" by knowing just one of those beliefs. It's like a package deal.
 
2013-02-03 01:47:48 PM  

Ed Grubermann: italie: Ed Grubermann: BillCo: Remember folks, everyone who believes in something you don't is a stupid simpleton. Doesn't matter if it's ghost, religion or global warming.  Don't even get me started on aliens.

If you beleive in something that has no evidence and violates the laws of physics and biology, well you're an idiot. Show me the mechanism by which a ghost can exist.

Explain to me how quantum entanglement works, then you can lecture me on how ghosts can't exist.

Explain to me how quantum entanglement has anything to do with dead people. Your wishful thinking is no substitute for an education.

thebreakthrough.org

 
2013-02-03 02:27:59 PM  

udhq: italie: Ed Grubermann: BillCo: Remember folks, everyone who believes in something you don't is a stupid simpleton. Doesn't matter if it's ghost, religion or global warming.  Don't even get me started on aliens.

If you beleive in something that has no evidence and violates the laws of physics and biology, well you're an idiot. Show me the mechanism by which a ghost can exist.

Explain to me how quantum entanglement works, then you can lecture me on how ghosts can't exist.

"Can exist" is meaningless.

Extraordinary claims, etc. etc.


This - invoked religiously several times in this thread as if it is a cure-all excuse for non-thought - is beginning to sound remarkably like someone saying their rosary.
 
2013-02-03 02:29:24 PM  

Baryogenesis: You still need to differentiate between real as a concept and real as a physical thing even if you don't want to call the former "real".  Believing in a concept is very different than believing something exists physically which is the problem you ran into when you attempted to trip people up about not believing in ghosts but believing in abstractions or concepts like the law.


Is it? It seems to lead to the same decision-making process, such as trusting insurance companies not to shut down when forced to cover high-risk loans until they go bankrupt, outsourcing labor to countries with different safety standards and expecting them to meet your own country's standards when you know you have no way to legally enforce them, and believing President Obama was really going to make a huge difference.

/most of the problems we're facing stem from attempts to pretend imaginary concepts follow the same rules reality does
//the fact that we are completely dependent on this belief will not protect us from the consequences
 
2013-02-03 02:36:11 PM  

gimmegimme: andyfromfl: In after 'There is no God who behaves how I think it should, therefore there is no God.'

What about "There is no god because the world behaves as though there is no supernatural deity and it's sillypants to believe in something for which there is no evidence."?


The world behaves as if there is not supernatural diety as defined by the power brokers and power takers who have used religion as a tool for 10,000 years. That is NOT the same as saying their is no (supernatural or for that matter natural) deity who set it all in motion. (Based on the latest theories in cosmology and quantum physics, I happen to believe that there is a good chance that something that we might define as "God" (any sufficiently advanced aliens.... etc.) might actually have been necessary to kick start the whole thing. As to why I believe that, it would require a wall of text to explain, and I'm pretty sure no one here would be interested.)
 
2013-02-03 02:37:57 PM  

gimmegimme: The Billdozer: PsiChick: Bontesla: Bontesla: Zombie DJ: I do. I've studied the Paranormal for over 30 years. I've got a great "laugh" from a cemetery I walked through.
When people ask me to give them proof there's ghosts, I just tell them it's not my job to make you believe.
That's YOUR job. Do your own homework. I do it for fun, not change the World.

I would love to go "ghost hunting" but I've no one to go with. I've had a few dreams from people I've known who died. A few months ago - I had to dream about my cousin. She committed suicide two Easters ago. She wanted me to give her mom a message. It was weird. My dreams are always for other people. Rarely are they for me.

My mom is the same way.

Hell, my aunt (mom's sister) also dreams visits. It's how she found out her husband died in an accident.

Google an da shealladh. It's not exactly the same, but it sounds like you're using a variant.

/I have the more classic you-will-see-this-random-thing-and-it-will-literally-happen, sucks-to-be-you version, but from what I've found there's a few types. Exploring it and the history involved can be fun, if involving a ridiculous amount of research.

You also hear about this with people with death-bed visions (which apparently Steve Jobs possibly had), terminal lucidity with people who have damaged brains, and people who have Near-Death Experiences. They see people who have passed some time ago that they never knew or people who have just died that the person having the experience had no idea just passed. Its pretty crazy stuff.

Science is fun.  Much more fun than magic.


Correlation =/ causation?
 
2013-02-03 03:01:20 PM  

Tatterdemalian: Is it?


Yes, it is.

The rest of your post made no argument that it was the same, but rather spun off on a tangent about how some people who I guess believe the things you think they do are stupid.

People are stupid, so therefor believing in ghosts is no different than being mislead in politics? You've made quite the stretch here.
 
2013-02-03 03:09:10 PM  

Smackledorfer: Tatterdemalian: Is it?

Yes, it is.

The rest of your post made no argument that it was the same, but rather spun off on a tangent about how some people who I guess believe the things you think they do are stupid.

People are stupid, so therefor believing in ghosts is no different than being mislead in politics? You've made quite the stretch here.


Admit the universe is vast and infinitely complex and that humanity is staring down a LONG, DARK rabbithole of knowledge, and who knows how far down it we've gone and explored, thus admitting that human intelligence is, for all of its advances, limited and check your ego.

Or, continue to argue that human intelligence has it all figured out, and anything that doesn't fit in the neat little box you have constructed must be a fairy tail, worthy of ridicule, because god damn we humans are awesome and know everything.
 
2013-02-03 03:17:34 PM  

Ed Grubermann: italie: Ed Grubermann: italie: Ed Grubermann: BillCo: Remember folks, everyone who believes in something you don't is a stupid simpleton. Doesn't matter if it's ghost, religion or global warming.  Don't even get me started on aliens.

If you beleive in something that has no evidence and violates the laws of physics and biology, well you're an idiot. Show me the mechanism by which a ghost can exist.

Explain to me how quantum entanglement works, then you can lecture me on how ghosts can't exist.

Explain to me how quantum entanglement has anything to do with dead people. Your wishful thinking is no substitute for an education.

I never said it did, nor did I ever infer my beliefs on ghosts. I just want you to explain quantum entanglement to me.

Why? It is not germane to the discussion and my understanding of it has nothing to do with anything.


Evasions. How do they wurk?
 
2013-02-03 03:21:40 PM  

letrole: Ghosts do exist, but they are not the dead. Rather, they are evil spirits who exploit people's superstition. The same is true for dreams and so forth about loved ones who've died recently.

There is nothing in Scripture that even remotely supports the idea of the soul remaining on Earth after the death of the body. While the eventual destination of the soul is up for debate, it is safe to say that ghosts are not the soul/spirit/mind of the departed.


And, of course, Scripture is the embodiment of Truth rather than being the collected, filtered and substantially revised written collections of the past ravings of madmen, people high on mushrooms or ergot, and power freaks with an agenda of controlling people through fear. The Bible is bullshiat and IMO has nothing at all to do with whether there is or is not a God.
 
2013-02-03 03:24:39 PM  

Ivan Tudor C McHock: GUTSU: wee: More than that believe in a god.  Some even believe that this invisible man in the sky will listen to them and do shiat for them.  They live their lives in the context of this imaginary friend advising them.  They give money to people who talk to them about this magical being.

That's far worse than believing in ghosts.

I'm willing to bet there are even more atheists who make snide and rude remarks about the vast majority of the population. I say this as an ignostic, you don't look smart when you say shiat like that, it just makes you look like an ass.

No, it makes him look honest. You must remember that theists  actually are moronsand if stating that fact causes their buttocks to become hurty then that is tough titties. T telling it crudly and insultingly like it is, is very important in a world where you desperately want to be an ITG to stoke your shriviled little ego. filled with bullshiat.


Fixed
 
2013-02-03 03:30:25 PM  

Kit Fister: Smackledorfer: Tatterdemalian: Is it?

Yes, it is.

The rest of your post made no argument that it was the same, but rather spun off on a tangent about how some people who I guess believe the things you think they do are stupid.

People are stupid, so therefor believing in ghosts is no different than being mislead in politics? You've made quite the stretch here.

Admit the universe is vast and infinitely complex and that humanity is staring down a LONG, DARK rabbithole of knowledge, and who knows how far down it we've gone and explored, thus admitting that human intelligence is, for all of its advances, limited and check your ego.

Or, continue to argue that human intelligence has it all figured out, and anything that doesn't fit in the neat little box you have constructed must be a fairy tail, worthy of ridicule, because god damn we humans are awesome and know everything.


Are those really the only two options?  Either we know everything or we know nothing at all?
 
2013-02-03 03:32:08 PM  

FloydA: mekki: Ghosts are a silly concept until you come across one. Then they cease in being a silly concept.

CSB: Had a die-hard atheist friend, (he doesn't even believe in luck), comes across a Woman in White ghost. He was driving along Elbow Road in Virginia Beach, Va late at night. The road was one of those stereotypical horror movie roads; out in the boonies, woods on either side, no street lights, lots of twists. He was going down one of those dangerous turns when his headlights fall on a woman in white standing in the middle of the road. He slams his breaks but doesn't quite make it. He hits her only, the car doesn't hit anything. That doesn't prevent him from stopping the car and looking for the damage. His bumper is fine. His hood is fine. For a car hitting something, there is absolutely no damage. Hitting a possum gets more damage. There is also no sign of the woman. There's nothing or no one on the road. He checks the ditches on the side. Nothing. He goes up and down with a flashlight. Nothing. He keeps on looking for almost an hour. Nothing. The woman is simply gone.

With no body and not a speck of evidence to prove he's ever hit anyone, he goes home and watches the news. He looks to see if anyone has found a body on Elbow Road. Nothing.

Fast forward a few years later when I was talking to another friend of ours who believes in ghosts. She is talking about all the local ghosts and one of them is the Woman in White on Elbow Road. Until then, I had not heard of the legend. But at that moment, something clicks and I realize that my friend had hit a ghost with his car, though he dismisses the idea of it. He still laughs at the idea of ghosts. I think it's funny that the one of the guys that I know who has a personal encounter with a ghost is someone who does not believe in them. /end of CSB

/some people don't believe even if they hit proof head on.


I have a firm and unshakable belief in the existence of smoke, mist, fog, water vapor, the exhaust fumes from the vehicle ahead of me, so-called "highway hypnosis," and even hallucinations due to driving while tired.  Any one of those could explain your friend's experience.

The leap from "I don't know what it is" to "it must be supernatural" is not a logical or necessary one.


If ghosts exist then they are IN nature and are by definition a natural phenomenon (one that we simply don't understand yet, like gravity, ball lightning, quantum entanglement, how an electron or a photon can be both a wave AND a particle, etc.). And what you are doing is erecting a straw man argument. Gee, I thought a rational all-sciency dude like you would be less prone to illogical arguments.....
 
2013-02-03 03:36:46 PM  

Kit Fister: Rufus Lee King: How is everyone so sure that there aren't ghosts?

Same way they're sure there isn't a god. Two hundred years ago if you said all matter was made of tiny particles, and that we could harness these particles to provide energy and a host of other things, you'd be laughed out of existence.

It makes me both sad and astounded that people are so sure that ghosts, god, whatever doesn't exist that they use it to belittle and browbeat anyone who isn't like them.

It also makes me sad and angry that we as a human race simply cannot get by unless we're tearing each other down over our differences of opinion and personal experience.

Don't believe in something? Fine. But it's none of your goddamn business not do you have the right to judge others who believe differently than you do.


This x 10500 It also makes me sad that the so-called sciency people on Fark appear to be the narrow-minded and religiously fundamentalist rednecks. If this is the state of science in the real world, then we got big problems, folks.
 
2013-02-03 03:37:24 PM  

Kit Fister: Smackledorfer: Tatterdemalian: Is it?

Yes, it is.

The rest of your post made no argument that it was the same, but rather spun off on a tangent about how some people who I guess believe the things you think they do are stupid.

People are stupid, so therefor believing in ghosts is no different than being mislead in politics? You've made quite the stretch here.

Admit the universe is vast and infinitely complex and that humanity is staring down a LONG, DARK rabbithole of knowledge, and who knows how far down it we've gone and explored, thus admitting that human intelligence is, for all of its advances, limited and check your ego.

Or, continue to argue that human intelligence has it all figured out, and anything that doesn't fit in the neat little box you have constructed must be a fairy tail, worthy of ridicule, because god damn we humans are awesome and know everything.


First, false dichotomy is false.

Second, I freely admit the universe is pretty damn vast and complex.  That doesn't mean that one guy believing ghosts are real is the same as another person believing a politician can make a difference.  But I see you are continuing to be vague and borderline off-topic with your arguments instead of actually making a point. But I'm sure it isn't trolling right?
 
2013-02-03 03:39:37 PM  

FloydA: Kit Fister: Smackledorfer: Tatterdemalian: Is it?

Yes, it is.

The rest of your post made no argument that it was the same, but rather spun off on a tangent about how some people who I guess believe the things you think they do are stupid.

People are stupid, so therefor believing in ghosts is no different than being mislead in politics? You've made quite the stretch here.

Admit the universe is vast and infinitely complex and that humanity is staring down a LONG, DARK rabbithole of knowledge, and who knows how far down it we've gone and explored, thus admitting that human intelligence is, for all of its advances, limited and check your ego.

Or, continue to argue that human intelligence has it all figured out, and anything that doesn't fit in the neat little box you have constructed must be a fairy tail, worthy of ridicule, because god damn we humans are awesome and know everything.

Are those really the only two options?  Either we know everything or we know nothing at all?


Well, since we don't know what we don't know, we don't know how much we know. We may know 99% of the secrets of the universe, or just 1%. Or somewhere in the middle. The point remains the same.
 
2013-02-03 03:40:35 PM  

iron de havilland: italie: Explain to me how quantum entanglement works, then you can lecture me on how ghosts can't exist.

Quantum entanglement is pretty simple, really. Particles that have interacted can have quantum superpositions linked in such a way that, even at a distance, measuring the quantum state of one particle causes the probability wave function of the other to collapse.


Now please restate that in simple English.
 
2013-02-03 03:43:10 PM  

Kit Fister: Well, since we don't know what we don't know, we don't know how much we know. We may know 99% of the secrets of the universe, or just 1%. Or somewhere in the middle. The point remains the same.


What is the point exactly? Because thus far it seems to be a conflating of "we don't know everything" with "you can't tell anyone they are wrong about anything"
 
2013-02-03 03:48:05 PM  

Baryogenesis: Kit Fister: Why dismiss out of hand that which is unproven (and poorly studied because it is dismissed out of hand) simply because we have no evidence because we have no reliable, empirical studies to draw from?

Quick, name something that you feel has been dismissed out of hand.  Please name something you think hasn't been given its scientific due process.

Just Another OC Homeless Guy: The laws of physics and biology? Which ones? Newton's Laws? Or Einstein's, which proved Newton to be wrong. Darwin's evolutionary theory? Or what about the complications to that suggested by Lynn Margulis? And let's not even discuss the possibilities being suggested by quantum and string field theorists that may apply to both physics and biology.  Do you actually have the naive chutzpah to say that we know everything? We know less about the human brain than about the moons of Saturn.

Sorry to break it to you, but we know more than you think.  And we don't have to know everything about everything to point out ghosts aren't real and that there is no immaterial soul (or residual energy field or whatever you want to call it) which is responsible for consciousness and survives brain death.

Here is the Dirac Equation, which describes electrons:  [blogs.scientificamerican.com image 319x42]

Please point out where the term for "interaction with the immaterial soul" is at.


 In order to say that there is a soul and it is the seat of our consciousness, personality, memory, etc and interacts with the physical world then you have to say this equation isn't right.  This is the problem with the "science hasn't discovered" everything argument when debating in favor of supernatural and pseudo scientific phenomena   Those phenomena aren't just confined to a realm where our science has yet to tread.  These supposedly supernatural phenomena are being "witnessed" in the everyday world!  Guess what? We know the physics of the everyday world pretty damn well.   In order to posit the existence of ghosts or the continuation of a mind beyond bodily death you have to trample on well established physics.

Like Einstein trampled on the well-established physics of Newton? Oh, yes, there were experimental hints (evidence) that Newton's Laws were lacking something. There is also evidence (anecdotal) for ghosts... but people like you refuse to consider it as evidence. An easy win, by definition, no? Much easier than actually designing experiments to prove or disprove the point.
 
2013-02-03 03:53:47 PM  

Ed Grubermann: BillCo: Remember folks, everyone who believes in something you don't is a stupid simpleton. Doesn't matter if it's ghost, religion or global warming.  Don't even get me started on aliens.

If you beleive in something that has no evidence and violates the laws of physics and biology, well you're an idiot. Show me the mechanism by which a ghost can exist.


Can you show me a mechanism by which the laws of physics can exist? Where did they come from, and why?
 
2013-02-03 04:06:53 PM  

Smackledorfer: Second, I freely admit the universe is pretty damn vast and complex. That doesn't mean that one guy believing ghosts are real is the same as another person believing a politician can make a difference. But I see you are continuing to be vague and borderline off-topic with your arguments instead of actually making a point. But I'm sure it isn't trolling right?


Okay, How about this:

I don't believe in ghosts, or an all-powerful god.  I do believe in unexplained phenomena (do DOOOO Do), and believe that unless or until we know we understand and completely grok EVERYTHING about the universe, then saying "i believe in god" and "i believe in ghosts" are perfectly acceptable layman's means of accepting and categorizing "I believe in unexpected, unexplained phenomena that occur outside of the realm of what I currently understand to be possible in the natural world around me, and have no other way to quantify or measure or explain it."

For example, again: at one point in history, all diseases and maladies were thought to be caused by spirits/demons in the blood, and bloodletting was the only way cure those maladies.   Given that at the time, that was considered to be cutting edge science, it was what people had. It wasn't until we discovered the existence of bacteria and viruses, and discovered a better way to treat them, thus explaining scientifically what we previously explained as a supernatural phenomenon.

Those spirits and demons in the blood may not have been supernatural (in the sense we classify supernatural beings today), but they were beyond the grasp of human collective intelligence at the time. And, in a way, they were right: these so-called "beings" WERE in the blood causing illness, they just weren't the work of the devil, they were the work of microorganisms.

I believe it to be entirely foolish to dismiss and deride people that attempt to explain phenomena (do DOOO Do...) by using colloquialisms that allow them to fit an unexplained experience into a category of unexplained happenings/beings/other.

I personally also believe that as science better understands the universe beyond the obvious precepts we have been able to study, and becomes more able to measure and study how things occur in our universe without coming up with explanations like "Well, Dark Matter did it*!", but can understand the fine-grained mechanisms at work, then we'll be able to say what happened and why. But don't be so arrogant as to dismiss out of hand the use of a colloquial descriptor by a non-scientific person to describe a belief in more than what constitutes their known, natural world as simply considering them to be "idiots", because that does them a disservice.

What would be more helpful and educational for everyone involved, I think, is to openly explore the individual cases of anecdotal encounters, then look for rational explanations for the phenomena (do DOOO Do) and where possible, determine what, if anything, occurred, and help people who are afflicted with these experiences work to resolve it.  And also, what would be more helpful is if people who were in the fields of science were more open about the fact that they can't explain everything, and showed some humility/fallibility, with an eye on being willing to look at the layperson's descriptors like a child's describing something he can't comprehend due to lack of relevant experience and guide those people.

I would also be willing to bet that if atheists/scientists who challenged religious beliefs did so in such a way as to be less confrontational about it, then more people would be open to what they had to say. Not everyone reacts well when they're treated like a dog who did something you think is wrong and is punished for it without understanding exactly what they did wrong or why you're punishing them for doing what, up until that moment, they thought was perfectly normal, nominal, and cromulent.
 
2013-02-03 04:14:05 PM  

Smackledorfer: Kit Fister: Well, since we don't know what we don't know, we don't know how much we know. We may know 99% of the secrets of the universe, or just 1%. Or somewhere in the middle. The point remains the same.

What is the point exactly? Because thus far it seems to be a conflating of "we don't know everything" with "you can't tell anyone they are wrong about anything"


The point is, unless you have solid, scientifically founded evidence that unquestionably proves that something is false, and provably so through repeated testing and verification, then all you have is a counter argument and no way to prove explicitly that it is wrong, just no evidence or means of proving that it's <i>right</i>.

So then what we're left with is personal disbelief, coupled with a healthy skepticism that all people SHOULD have, and an ego that says "Well, if I can't explicitly prove a positive, it doesn't exist" coupled with a need to push that vantage point onto others.

Either admit you CAN'T prove it one way or the other and admit that you really just don't believe in it because it doesn't fit with your OWN understanding of the universe, or admit that you're unwilling to accept the possibility of anything outside of your own rational understanding of the universe.  Take the goddamn ego out of it and stop kicking the poor folks not gifted with your personal genius and grand understanding of the universe because they try to fit what they don't understand into a container that makes sense to them. Give them better containers and help to better the knowledge of all of mankind, or shut the fark up and stop kicking them in the dick for not being able to know what you know due to whatever reason outside of willful denial of knowledge.
 
2013-02-03 06:24:32 PM  

St_Francis_P: It is one of the more harmless beliefs. Not many people have been killed over ghosts, nor does belief in ghosts trash the political process.


Precisely. It's not like you're going to run over a bunch of kids to appease a ghost or anything. I've never seen a ghost before but I won't do anything to purposefully antagonize them if they're out there. I don't a ghost visiting me when I'm on the toilet or at work.
 
2013-02-03 06:39:04 PM  

Just Another OC Homeless Guy: fusillade762: Americans believe a lot of stupid shiat. Ghosts, UFOs, Angels, that the Earth is flat, that Republicans can govern responsibly, etc.

It's really funny how you can almost always predict the belief-set on any given subject of a liberal/"progressive" by knowing just one of those beliefs. It's like a package deal.


Indeed. It's almost like it's easy to predict what rational people believe.
 
2013-02-03 07:17:59 PM  

fusillade762: Indeed. It's almost like it's easy to predict what rational people believe.


Not as much as you  might think.

Oldie but a goodie: "Look Who's Irrational Now."FARK won't let me link to it directly, but just copye and paste the URL: http://online.wsj.com/article/SB122178219865054585.html

Fun quote: "'What Americans Really Believe,' a comprehensive new study released by Baylor University yesterday, shows that traditional Christian religion greatly decreases belief in everything from the efficacy of palm readers to the usefulness of astrology. It also shows that the irreligious and the members of more liberal Protestant denominations, far from being resistant to superstition, tend to be much more likely to believe in the paranormal and in pseudoscience than evangelical Christians.
 
2013-02-03 08:09:03 PM  

GilRuiz1: fusillade762: Indeed. It's almost like it's easy to predict what rational people believe.

Not as much as you  might think.

Oldie but a goodie: "Look Who's Irrational Now."FARK won't let me link to it directly, but just copye and paste the URL: http://online.wsj.com/article/SB122178219865054585.html

Fun quote: "'What Americans Really Believe,' a comprehensive new study released by Baylor University yesterday, shows that traditional Christian religion greatly decreases belief in everything from the efficacy of palm readers to the usefulness of astrology. It also shows that the irreligious and the members of more liberal Protestant denominations, far from being resistant to superstition, tend to be much more likely to believe in the paranormal and in pseudoscience than evangelical Christians.


People with a belief in a mutually exclusive form of magic exclude others? What a surprise!

When you believe in revelations of course you don't believe in astrology.
Evangelical christians DO believe in pseudoscience, they call it religion. They doubt regular science, why would theu accept any other form of nonbiblical knowledge?
 
2013-02-03 08:11:02 PM  

leonel:  I don't a ghost visiting me when I'm on the toilet or at work.


Seems like the best possible times to me.

Option 1) would scare the s**t out of me, which would increase efficiency if nothing else.
Option 2) could probably get me the afternoon off work.

I'm not seeing a downside here.
 
2013-02-03 08:11:37 PM  

Kit Fister: Smackledorfer: Kit Fister: Well, since we don't know what we don't know, we don't know how much we know. We may know 99% of the secrets of the universe, or just 1%. Or somewhere in the middle. The point remains the same.

What is the point exactly? Because thus far it seems to be a conflating of "we don't know everything" with "you can't tell anyone they are wrong about anything"

The point is, unless you have solid, scientifically founded evidence that unquestionably proves that something is false, and provably so through repeated testing and verification, then all you have is a counter argument and no way to prove explicitly that it is wrong, just no evidence or means of proving that it's <i>right</i>.

So then what we're left with is personal disbelief, coupled with a healthy skepticism that all people SHOULD have, and an ego that says "Well, if I can't explicitly prove a positive, it doesn't exist" coupled with a need to push that vantage point onto others.

Either admit you CAN'T prove it one way or the other and admit that you really just don't believe in it because it doesn't fit with your OWN understanding of the universe, or admit that you're unwilling to accept the possibility of anything outside of your own rational understanding of the universe.  Take the goddamn ego out of it and stop kicking the poor folks not gifted with your personal genius and grand understanding of the universe because they try to fit what they don't understand into a container that makes sense to them. Give them better containers and help to better the knowledge of all of mankind, or shut the fark up and stop kicking them in the dick for not being able to know what you know due to whatever reason outside of willful denial of knowledge.


Not all things which are beyond disproval are equally believable. Treating them like they are is asinine and stupid.
 
2013-02-03 08:13:48 PM  
You guys are all wrong. All of the phenomena in this thread is caused by a top-secret mind-control device that is operated by the CIA. It is still in the early testing stages because it only works on gullible people with sub 100 IQs. This is why it works so well in third-world countries. Anyway, like I said before, it is what is causing your visions. They are using you as a lab rat to fine tune the machine so that it works on those of us who are actually intelligent. Once it does, they will do a full-scale deployment to save us from ourselves.

You people need to wake up and face the truth before it is too late.
 
2013-02-03 08:21:43 PM  

Smackledorfer: Kit Fister: Smackledorfer: Kit Fister: Well, since we don't know what we don't know, we don't know how much we know. We may know 99% of the secrets of the universe, or just 1%. Or somewhere in the middle. The point remains the same.

What is the point exactly? Because thus far it seems to be a conflating of "we don't know everything" with "you can't tell anyone they are wrong about anything"

The point is, unless you have solid, scientifically founded evidence that unquestionably proves that something is false, and provably so through repeated testing and verification, then all you have is a counter argument and no way to prove explicitly that it is wrong, just no evidence or means of proving that it's <i>right</i>.

So then what we're left with is personal disbelief, coupled with a healthy skepticism that all people SHOULD have, and an ego that says "Well, if I can't explicitly prove a positive, it doesn't exist" coupled with a need to push that vantage point onto others.

Either admit you CAN'T prove it one way or the other and admit that you really just don't believe in it because it doesn't fit with your OWN understanding of the universe, or admit that you're unwilling to accept the possibility of anything outside of your own rational understanding of the universe.  Take the goddamn ego out of it and stop kicking the poor folks not gifted with your personal genius and grand understanding of the universe because they try to fit what they don't understand into a container that makes sense to them. Give them better containers and help to better the knowledge of all of mankind, or shut the fark up and stop kicking them in the dick for not being able to know what you know due to whatever reason outside of willful denial of knowledge.

Not all things which are beyond disproval are equally believable. Treating them like they are is asinine and stupid.


That is an arbitrary line depending on each person. And treating them like they are believable is not the same as believing in the basic incident occurring, either in the mind of the person or physically in some way. Exploring incidents instead of dismissing all incidents that don't fit YOUR world view as asinine and stupid would net you a lot more benefits than simply being egotistical and combative.

Instead of calling some guy an idiot because he "saw a ghost" is far less useful than asking questions and helping the guy figure out he's wrong, and you're both better for the latter.

Although, I suppose, since your personal sense of importance and well being appears to be directly tied to the ability to treat anyone you deem as of lesser intelligence like shiat, I'm getting nowhere in suggesting its better to educate than berate.

Verbally abusive intellectuals who lord it over others are why you get bullied.
 
2013-02-03 08:33:29 PM  

Just Another OC Homeless Guy: LOL! My arrogance? Then in the very next sentence you say: "We understand the four fundamental forces." Really? THE four fundamental forces? Then what did I just read the other day about how some cosmologists now think there may be FIVE or more fundamental forces needed to explain dark matter and dark energy? The "four fundamental forces" interact. If there are more than four then, no, we do NOT understand those four forces.

Again: I really do worry about the arrogance and compartmentalization of many people in science. Saying "we understand it all so X cannot exist" is stupid. The mindset reminds me of zero tolerance school administrators, bank managers that substitute checked boxes and scores for actual, you know, thinking and evaluation, and chain store "managers" who are just glorified sales clerks and are not allowed by God Policy to make any farking decisions about their store.


Citation needed.

You can keep saying we don't understand basic physics, but it's just not true.  And any paradigm changing discoveries will be because scientists found evidence to support them, not because some guy saw a ghost and you're totally closed minded if you don't believe him.

Just Another OC Homeless Guy: Like Einstein trampled on the well-established physics of Newton? Oh, yes, there were experimental hints (evidence) that Newton's Laws were lacking something. There is also evidence (anecdotal) for ghosts... but people like you refuse to consider it as evidence. An easy win, by definition, no? Much easier than actually designing experiments to prove or disprove the point.


Newtonian physics are not wrong.  It is still valid in everyday situations.   Relativity wasn't an outright rejection of everything classical physics, but that's what you're suggesting with ghosts and non physical "matter" and souls and the like.  And again, evidence is the reason scientists accepted relativity.  Einstein's predictions have been verified experimentally with extreme accuracy.  Anecdotal evidence is unreliable and incredibly weak.  There's anecdotal evidence that homeopathy works and bigfoot exists.  There is massive gulf in veracity between precise predictions and confirmation (ex. general relativity and the precession of Mercury's orbit) and someone's anecdote.  They aren't even remotely on the same level.Anecdotal evidence is not sufficient to judge ANY claim and we certainly shouldn'tstart tearing down very well understood physics for anecdotal claims.  Bring substantial evidence FIRST then and only then can you start complaining that people are closed minded for rejecting your idea.

What particles are ghosts made of?  What test would you perform to discover them? How do they interact with the particles and forces we do understand?  That last one is very important.  We understand the physics at play when you're walking through a cemetery.  It's low energy, low velocity and non quantum.  We understand physics under those conditions.  In order for ghosts to exist they have to interact on some level with known physics on an everyday level (how else could you see them if they didn't interact with photons?).  Hey, there's the basis for a test.  Maybe you should get on that and you'll have more backing up your claim than some random anecdote no one else can verify.

It's arrogant to presume that your pet hypothesis is right even before you have evidence.  It's arrogant to presume well established science should be discarded to explain something you can't even begin to explain yourself.
 
2013-02-03 08:42:00 PM  

Baryogenesis: Just Another OC Homeless Guy: LOL! My arrogance? Then in the very next sentence you say: "We understand the four fundamental forces." Really? THE four fundamental forces? Then what did I just read the other day about how some cosmologists now think there may be FIVE or more fundamental forces needed to explain dark matter and dark energy? The "four fundamental forces" interact. If there are more than four then, no, we do NOT understand those four forces.

Again: I really do worry about the arrogance and compartmentalization of many people in science. Saying "we understand it all so X cannot exist" is stupid. The mindset reminds me of zero tolerance school administrators, bank managers that substitute checked boxes and scores for actual, you know, thinking and evaluation, and chain store "managers" who are just glorified sales clerks and are not allowed by God Policy to make any farking decisions about their store.

Citation needed.

You can keep saying we don't understand basic physics, but it's just not true.  And any paradigm changing discoveries will be because scientists found evidence to support them, not because some guy saw a ghost and you're totally closed minded if you don't believe him.

Just Another OC Homeless Guy: Like Einstein trampled on the well-established physics of Newton? Oh, yes, there were experimental hints (evidence) that Newton's Laws were lacking something. There is also evidence (anecdotal) for ghosts... but people like you refuse to consider it as evidence. An easy win, by definition, no? Much easier than actually designing experiments to prove or disprove the point.

Newtonian physics are not wrong.  It is still valid in everyday situations.   Relativity wasn't an outright rejection of everything classical physics, but that's what you're suggesting with ghosts and non physical "matter" and souls and the like.  And again, evidence is the reason scientists accepted relativity.  Einstein's predictions have been verified experimentally with extreme accuracy.  Anecdotal evidence is unreliable and incredibly weak.  There's anecdotal evidence that homeopathy works and bigfoot exists.  There is massive gulf in veracity between precise predictions and confirmation (ex. general relativity and the precession of Mercury's orbit) and someone's anecdote.  They aren't even remotely on the same level.Anecdotal evidence is not sufficient to judge ANY claim and we certainly shouldn'tstart tearing down very well understood physics for anecdotal claims.  Bring substantial evidence FIRST then and only then can you start complaining that people are closed minded for rejecting your idea.

What particles are ghosts made of?  What test would you perform to discover them? How do they interact with the particles and forces we do understand?  That last one is very important.  We understand the physics at play when you're walking through a cemetery.  It's low energy, low velocity and non quantum.  We understand physics under those conditions.  In order for ghosts to exist they have to interact on some level with known physics on an everyday level (how else could you see them if they didn't interact with photons?).  Hey, there's the basis for a test.  Maybe you should get on that and you'll have more backing up your claim than some random anecdote no one else can verify.

It's arrogant to presume that your pet hypothesis is right even before you have evidence.  It's arrogant to presume well established science should be discarded to explain something you can't even begin to explain yourself.


I dunno about him, but I think that it's the tone of the discussions rather than the content. Also, anecdotal evidence is sufficient depending on what you're talking about.

Personally, I believe that looking for areas of anecdotal evidence hotspots is possibly a good start if you were looking to begin studying what phenomena were at play and explain the anecdotal experiences. If thousands claim X at location Y, instead of calling them all idiots and dismissing it, maybe it warrants a "huh, something weird is happening there, maybe it would be neat to figure out what caused it" rather than a "man, thousands of people are retarded! Lol!", no?
 
2013-02-03 08:57:16 PM  

FloydA: leonel:  I don't a ghost visiting me when I'm on the toilet or at work.

Seems like the best possible times to me.

Option 1) would scare the s**t out of me, which would increase efficiency if nothing else.
Option 2) could probably get me the afternoon off work.

I'm not seeing a downside here.


Well you can't just force the poop out, you'll blow a ring or prolapse your butt. And what if you're the only one who sees the ghost at work? You'll definitely get more than the afternoon off of work.
 
2013-02-03 09:04:39 PM  

Just Another OC Homeless Guy: iron de havilland: italie: Explain to me how quantum entanglement works, then you can lecture me on how ghosts can't exist.

Quantum entanglement is pretty simple, really. Particles that have interacted can have quantum superpositions linked in such a way that, even at a distance, measuring the quantum state of one particle causes the probability wave function of the other to collapse.

Now please restate that in simple English.


Here's a bad analogy.  Let's say, like a coin, a particle has two states it can be in, heads or tails. Entanglement means when you measure one of the pair (let's say you get 'heads') the other particle automatically takes the other value (tails) no matter what.  Even if you separate the entangled particles by a large distance, then measure one of the pair (heads), the partner will still "know" that it should be tails even if no signal could cross the distance in the time frame between the measurements.  However, despite the "spooky action at a distance" we can't transmit classical information through quantum entanglement.

This has nothing to do with ghosts.

Just Another OC Homeless Guy: If ghosts exist then they are IN nature and are by definition a natural phenomenon (one that we simply don't understand yet, like gravity, ball lightning, quantum entanglement, how an electron or a photon can be both a wave AND a particle, etc.). And what you are doing is erecting a straw man argument. Gee, I thought a rational all-sciency dude like you would be less prone to illogical arguments


General relativity explains gravity.  Quantum mechanics explains entanglement and wave/particle duality.  You're confusing a high level "why are things the way there are" with the equations and mechanics of the phenomenon.  We can predict the orbit of the Earth around the Sun.  In that sense we understand gravity.  There's no "ghost equation" or "ghost force" like there is a gravitational equation or force.  There is no corresponding equation governing ghosts and we're just searching for the "why" behind its workings.

Why haven't we detected this supposedly natural phenomenon?  Why is it that these ghosts, according to witnesses, violate known laws of physics like the inability of a classical object to pass through a wall?  Why haven't we detected a new class of physics and particles?  Where is the evidence of their existence?  Why can you not answer any of these very, very basic questions?
 
2013-02-03 09:21:23 PM  

Kit Fister: Smackledorfer: Kit Fister: Smackledorfer: Kit Fister: Well, since we don't know what we don't know, we don't know how much we know. We may know 99% of the secrets of the universe, or just 1%. Or somewhere in the middle. The point remains the same.

What is the point exactly? Because thus far it seems to be a conflating of "we don't know everything" with "you can't tell anyone they are wrong about anything"

The point is, unless you have solid, scientifically founded evidence that unquestionably proves that something is false, and provably so through repeated testing and verification, then all you have is a counter argument and no way to prove explicitly that it is wrong, just no evidence or means of proving that it's <i>right</i>.

So then what we're left with is personal disbelief, coupled with a healthy skepticism that all people SHOULD have, and an ego that says "Well, if I can't explicitly prove a positive, it doesn't exist" coupled with a need to push that vantage point onto others.

Either admit you CAN'T prove it one way or the other and admit that you really just don't believe in it because it doesn't fit with your OWN understanding of the universe, or admit that you're unwilling to accept the possibility of anything outside of your own rational understanding of the universe.  Take the goddamn ego out of it and stop kicking the poor folks not gifted with your personal genius and grand understanding of the universe because they try to fit what they don't understand into a container that makes sense to them. Give them better containers and help to better the knowledge of all of mankind, or shut the fark up and stop kicking them in the dick for not being able to know what you know due to whatever reason outside of willful denial of knowledge.

Not all things which are beyond disproval are equally believable. Treating them like they are is asinine and stupid.

That is an arbitrary line depending on each person. And treating them like they are believable is not the same as believing in the basic incident occurring, either in the mind of the person or physically in some way. Exploring incidents instead of dismissing all incidents that don't fit YOUR world view as asinine and stupid would net you a lot more benefits than simply being egotistical and combative.

Instead of calling some guy an idiot because he "saw a ghost" is far less useful than asking questions and helping the guy figure out he's wrong, and you're both better for the latter.

Although, I suppose, since your personal sense of importance and well being appears to be directly tied to the ability to treat anyone you deem as of lesser intelligence like shiat, I'm getting nowhere in suggesting its better to educate than berate.

Verbally abusive intellectuals who lord it over others are why you get bullied.


Logic and reason are not restricted by arbitrary lines depending on individuals. That is a load of horseshiat. You brought up the greeks earlier... Socrates would spit on a belief like that.
 
2013-02-03 09:26:44 PM  

Kit Fister: I dunno about him, but I think that it's the tone of the discussions rather than the content


If discussions centered solely on the strength of the evidence were sufficient this thread would have been about 10 comments long.  Most of the ghost believers in the thread have failed to admit that they have shaky evidence at best and the rational position on the issue would be to say ghosts don't exist with the caveat that you can't prove a universal negative.

The argument gets shifted to bullshiat like "open mindedness" means believing something without good evidence.  The tone turns to ridicule because the people arguing in favor of ghost are confident to a degree far exceeding the strength of their evidence and then attack people who want more and better evidence (how DARE we do that!?) as "closed minded".  So they're not only believing something without good evidence, but they're also accusing everyone else for being closed minded for not automatically agreeing with them.

Just Another OC Homeless Guy: This - invoked religiously several times in this thread as if it is a cure-all excuse for non-thought - is beginning to sound remarkably like someone saying their rosary.


You just don't like actually presenting evidence that is strong enough to back up your claims.  When you want to overthrow vast swaths of physics you need a metric assload of evidence supporting your position.  When you want people to believe in the existence of a new phenomenon unlike any other then you need plenty of evidence to sway them.

The only one not thinking is you because you've decided you're right without actually weighing the evidence.  You're ignoring all the problems with your belief.  Every criticism, contradiction and problem with your belief are casually swept aside as if those objections are meaningless.  That's the pinnacle of not thinking and religiously sticking to what you want to be true.
 
2013-02-03 09:35:46 PM  
Gyrfalcon:
Exactly (and allowing for your current state of intoxication).

Thank you for understanding.  I do have a tendency to get a little bit "sentimental" when I'm drunk.  My apologies.
 
2013-02-03 09:38:16 PM  

Just Another OC Homeless Guy: I happen to believe that there is a good chance that something that we might define as "God" (any sufficiently advanced aliens.... etc.) might actually have been necessary to kick start the whole thing. As to why I believe that, it would require a wall of text to explain, and I'm pretty sure no one here would be interested.


We've all heard various "first cause" philosophical arguments.  They all suffer from infinite regress or special pleading.

Just Another OC Homeless Guy: Just as a wild-assed guess, from reading your other posts, I'd bet a buck or two that you're a firm believer in Global Warming, and probably AGW. Am I right? It goes with the total "package."


As opposed to the guy who apparently thinks science is a crock because he obviously favors alternative explanations even if he has no evidence to support those alternative positions?  So far you've got ghosts and AGW denial.  What else?  What about homeopathy, bigfoot, birtherism, chemtrails, moon landing hoax, perpetual motion machines?  Clearly science denial is a theme for you.  What other subjects do you ignore evidence that disagrees with you and assume that you know more than the experts?  Are you going to fall back to the "you're not open minded unless you uncritically accept whatever I believe" argument again?
 
2013-02-03 09:38:16 PM  

Smackledorfer: Kit Fister: Smackledorfer: Kit Fister: Smackledorfer: Kit Fister: Well, since we don't know what we don't know, we don't know how much we know. We may know 99% of the secrets of the universe, or just 1%. Or somewhere in the middle. The point remains the same.

What is the point exactly? Because thus far it seems to be a conflating of "we don't know everything" with "you can't tell anyone they are wrong about anything"

The point is, unless you have solid, scientifically founded evidence that unquestionably proves that something is false, and provably so through repeated testing and verification, then all you have is a counter argument and no way to prove explicitly that it is wrong, just no evidence or means of proving that it's <i>right</i>.

So then what we're left with is personal disbelief, coupled with a healthy skepticism that all people SHOULD have, and an ego that says "Well, if I can't explicitly prove a positive, it doesn't exist" coupled with a need to push that vantage point onto others.

Either admit you CAN'T prove it one way or the other and admit that you really just don't believe in it because it doesn't fit with your OWN understanding of the universe, or admit that you're unwilling to accept the possibility of anything outside of your own rational understanding of the universe.  Take the goddamn ego out of it and stop kicking the poor folks not gifted with your personal genius and grand understanding of the universe because they try to fit what they don't understand into a container that makes sense to them. Give them better containers and help to better the knowledge of all of mankind, or shut the fark up and stop kicking them in the dick for not being able to know what you know due to whatever reason outside of willful denial of knowledge.

Not all things which are beyond disproval are equally believable. Treating them like they are is asinine and stupid.

That is an arbitrary line depending on each person. And treating them like they are believable is not the same as believing in the basic incident occurring, either in the mind of the person or physically in some way. Exploring incidents instead of dismissing all incidents that don't fit YOUR world view as asinine and stupid would net you a lot more benefits than simply being egotistical and combative.

Instead of calling some guy an idiot because he "saw a ghost" is far less useful than asking questions and helping the guy figure out he's wrong, and you're both better for the latter.

Although, I suppose, since your personal sense of importance and well being appears to be directly tied to the ability to treat anyone you deem as of lesser intelligence like shiat, I'm getting nowhere in suggesting its better to educate than berate.

Verbally abusive intellectuals who lord it over others are why you get bullied.

Logic and reason are not restricted by arbitrary lines depending on individuals. That is a load of horseshiat. You brought up the greeks earlier... Socrates would spit on a belief like that.


What someone believes to be true is arbitrary depending on individuals, stop being pedantic and shifting the goalposts.

Further what is considered either logical or reasonable by an individual is based entirely on his own experience and belief.

For example, until I spent a lot of time reading about einstein's theories and time dilation and all that, without understanding the concept, I thought it illogical that time would dialate with speed, figuring time was a constant. I know I was wrong after looking into it, but it seemed perfectly reasonable at the time, given that we measure time partly by phenomena I thought to be a universal constant.

Again, everyone has their own standard of what is logical and reasonable, and it's better to have an honest discussion where people learn than having nasty fights and browbeating
 
2013-02-03 09:51:35 PM  

Kit Fister: What someone believes to be true is arbitrary depending on individuals, stop being pedantic and shifting the goalposts.

Further what is considered either logical or reasonable by an individual is based entirely on his own experience and belief.

For example, until I spent a lot of time reading about einstein's theories and time dilation and all that, without understanding the concept, I thought it illogical that time would dialate with speed, figuring time was a constant. I know I was wrong after looking into it, but it seemed perfectly reasonable at the time, given that we measure time partly by phenomena I thought to be a universal constant.

Again, everyone has their own standard of what is logical and reasonable, and it's better to have an honest discussion where people learn than having nasty fights and browbeating


Believes vary based on the person, but logic and reason don't vary based on the person wielding them and THAT'S THE WHOLE FARKING POINT.  We need something impartial and separate from human ignorance and bias.  We can't get there completely, of course, but that's the goal.  The only thing changing in your example about time dilation is you and your incomplete knowledge.  It's just a bad idea to say "I consider X to be logical" because the point of logic is that it's separate from human experience (X is logical).
 
2013-02-03 10:00:06 PM  

Baryogenesis: Kit Fister: What someone believes to be true is arbitrary depending on individuals, stop being pedantic and shifting the goalposts.

Further what is considered either logical or reasonable by an individual is based entirely on his own experience and belief.

For example, until I spent a lot of time reading about einstein's theories and time dilation and all that, without understanding the concept, I thought it illogical that time would dialate with speed, figuring time was a constant. I know I was wrong after looking into it, but it seemed perfectly reasonable at the time, given that we measure time partly by phenomena I thought to be a universal constant.

Again, everyone has their own standard of what is logical and reasonable, and it's better to have an honest discussion where people learn than having nasty fights and browbeating

Believes vary based on the person, but logic and reason don't vary based on the person wielding them and THAT'S THE WHOLE FARKING POINT.  We need something impartial and separate from human ignorance and bias.  We can't get there completely, of course, but that's the goal.  The only thing changing in your example about time dilation is you and your incomplete knowledge.  It's just a bad idea to say "I consider X to be logical" because the point of logic is that it's separate from human experience (X is logical).


I think we're not looking at logic and reason the same way. Logic and reason, I find to be subjective based on the person. Logic as a collective phenomenon is independent, but requires the person to have sufficient awareness to separate his or her own personal perception from what might be considered "logical" to the vox populi
 
2013-02-03 11:56:38 PM  

Just Another OC Homeless Guy: andyfrom


As for you: that's so broad a statement as to be not provable or unprovable, so it's as if you said nothing.
As to the guy I quoted, I absolutely love it when some clown says something ignorant and I only read it because someone else quoted it.
 
2013-02-03 11:57:17 PM  

Kit Fister: I think we're not looking at logic and reason the same way. Logic and reason, I find to be subjective based on the person. Logic as a collective phenomenon is independent, but requires the person to have sufficient awareness to separate his or her own personal perception from what might be considered "logical" to the vox populi


Then you're using the terms logic and reason in way that no one else does and in way that blurs the distinction between the subjective and objective.  The opinions and beliefs someone forms based on logic and reason can often be subjective, but to say that logic and reason are subjective doesn't make sense.  It doesn't really matter what you or I believe is logical, it only matters what IS logical.  Again, the only thing changing is the individual's perspective and knowledge, not logic itself.
 
2013-02-04 12:20:37 AM  
Last post in this thread.

What I find fascinating in this thread, and certain other threads, is the virtually religious and uncritically dogmatic enthusiasm of some Farkers for their own takes on "Science." The word is invoked like you are saying your Rosary. And it is done so in the same breath used to accuse those who disagree with you of irrationality, stupidity, and general derpiness. So... who are you people?

I know quite well why I waste huge amounts of time here on Fark: After my twice weekly calls to employment agencies, and the daily checking and occasional resume response on Monster, Craigslist and other job posting sites, I've really got nothing else to do except sit in the truck, or the public library, or a Starbucks and amuse myself. Killing time, it's called.

I also read. A lot. Lots of science in various fields, as well as SF, detective novels, and so forth. My background, plus my non-fiction reading/study, has IMHO given me a fairly good "lay" handle on lots of sciency type subject matters.

I realize, however, that that knowledge is probably nothing compared to the intellectual and professional attainments of the many scientists who apparently spend so much time on Fark lambasting my own and others viewpoints.....  Oh, wait, that really doesn't make a whole hell of a lot of sense, now does it?

Why? Well, if you were actual, real life scientists - biologists, cosmologists, quantum physicists, climatologists, anthropologists, etc. - you would undoubtedly be working on wonderful and ground-breaking science... and really would not have either the time nor the psychological bias to spend hours arguing on Fark and putting down others who disagreed with you.

Which means that you must be one (or more) of several things: (1) people similar to myself, who do NOT have science degrees and are faking your superiority to stroke your own fragile egos; (2) scientists who are out of work due to whatever reason (incompetence comes to mind as one possibility), or (3) actual working scientists who have so freaking much time on your hands that one wonders whether you've been sidelined by your colleagues(again, why? Due to incompetence?) into dead-end jobs where nobody cares if you produce.

In other words, for all three cases, me thinks that you all doth protesteth far too much.

Confused lurkers should take note of this train of logic. Ask yourselves exactly what are the professional sciency credentials of some of these people. And, if they are so good, why are they wasting time on Fark?

Good night.
 
2013-02-04 12:37:53 AM  

Baryogenesis: Kit Fister: I think we're not looking at logic and reason the same way. Logic and reason, I find to be subjective based on the person. Logic as a collective phenomenon is independent, but requires the person to have sufficient awareness to separate his or her own personal perception from what might be considered "logical" to the vox populi

Then you're using the terms logic and reason in way that no one else does and in way that blurs the distinction between the subjective and objective.  The opinions and beliefs someone forms based on logic and reason can often be subjective, but to say that logic and reason are subjective doesn't make sense.  It doesn't really matter what you or I believe is logical, it only matters what IS logical.  Again, the only thing changing is the individual's perspective and knowledge, not logic itself.


If it is a ripe banana then it is yellow. I choose to have my own personal logic. In my logic that statement implies that if it is yellow then it is a ripe banana.

Prove me wrong. Difficulty: you cannot disagree with my logic because that's personal.
 
2013-02-04 01:19:10 AM  

Just Another OC Homeless Guy: Last post in this thread [snipped]


Translation: I've got absolutely nothing and hate being called out on it so I'll spend 500 words calling you all idiots.
 
2013-02-04 01:22:38 AM  

fusillade762: Just Another OC Homeless Guy: fusillade762: Americans believe a lot of stupid shiat. Ghosts, UFOs, Angels, that the Earth is flat, that Republicans can govern responsibly, etc.

It's really funny how you can almost always predict the belief-set on any given subject of a liberal/"progressive" by knowing just one of those beliefs. It's like a package deal.

Indeed. It's almost like it's easy to predict what rational people believe.


Not only that, but they even say exactly the same things and quote the same sources.  It's almost like they all read the same talking points memos.
 
2013-02-04 01:40:06 AM  

Just Another OC Homeless Guy: fusillade762: Just Another OC Homeless Guy: fusillade762: Americans believe a lot of stupid shiat. Ghosts, UFOs, Angels, that the Earth is flat, that Republicans can govern responsibly, etc.

It's really funny how you can almost always predict the belief-set on any given subject of a liberal/"progressive" by knowing just one of those beliefs. It's like a package deal.

Indeed. It's almost like it's easy to predict what rational people believe.

Not only that, but they even say exactly the same things and quote the same sources.  It's almost like they all read the same talking points memos.


Project much? Find me evidence of ANYTHING I've said in this thread that appears anywhere in any talking points memo.
 
2013-02-04 02:04:51 AM  

Myria: I sort of wish that ghosts existed, because it'd imply that there is something after death. But it sure doesn't look like it.

Atheism is the most depressing of the religions. My mind just can't believe in things that don't exist, though.


sigh. all of THIS.
 
2013-02-04 09:16:25 AM  

timelady: Myria: I sort of wish that ghosts existed, because it'd imply that there is something after death. But it sure doesn't look like it.

Atheism is the most depressing of the religions. My mind just can't believe in things that don't exist, though.

sigh. all of THIS.




The whole conception of a God is a conception derived from the ancient oriental despotisms. It is a conception quite unworthy of free men.... We ought to stand up and look the world frankly in the face. We ought to make the best we can of the world, and if it is not so good as we wish, after all it will still be better than what these others have made of it in all these ages. - Bertrand Russell
 
2013-02-04 07:40:13 PM  

Repo Man: timelady: Myria: I sort of wish that ghosts existed, because it'd imply that there is something after death. But it sure doesn't look like it.

Atheism is the most depressing of the religions. My mind just can't believe in things that don't exist, though.

sigh. all of THIS.

The whole conception of a God is a conception derived from the ancient oriental despotisms. It is a conception quite unworthy of free men.... We ought to stand up and look the world frankly in the face. We ought to make the best we can of the world, and if it is not so good as we wish, after all it will still be better than what these others have made of it in all these ages. - Bertrand Russell


While recognising all of this to be true, one at times cannot help a childish yearning for magic, or a sense of 'more than we can know'. Yes, that stems for ignorance, and I am not immune to the wonders and grandeur of the universe - anyone viewing any Hubble image is hard indeed if unmoved shiatchens rightly pointed out, a burning bush is a poor miracle indeed in comparison.

And yet, and yet...

It may not be rational, but the yearning is there, and is a human thing, perhaps. It does not mean one should reject science, but one can sympathise perhaps with those who fall for the siren call - but that is the call of ignorance, and nothing can make me believe in the frankly unbelievable. Occam's Razor is too important,a nd ignorance is a road to darkness (Dark Ages, anyone?).

And yet, and yet...
 
2013-02-05 03:11:51 PM  

Kit Fister: Further what is considered either logical or reasonable by an individual is based entirely on his own experience and belief.


And how they're defining "logical" and "reasonable".
imageshack.us


See also Lincoln's "How many legs does a dog have if you consider the tail a leg?"

Kit Fister: Again, everyone has their own standard of what is logical and reasonable, and it's better to have an honest discussion where people learn than having nasty fights and browbeating


Similarly, whether something is "better" or not depends on what ordering relationship over choices is given to define the term "better".

Kit Fister: Logic and reason, I find to be subjective based on the person.


So, you consider as subjective the commutativity of logical inclusive disjunction -- that (P OR Q) is equi-inferrable with (Q OR P)?

Just Another OC Homeless Guy: Which means that you must be one (or more) of several things: (1) people similar to myself, who do NOT have science degrees and are faking your superiority to stroke your own fragile egos; (2) scientists who are out of work due to whatever reason (incompetence comes to mind as one possibility), or (3) actual working scientists who have so freaking much time on your hands that one wonders whether you've been sidelined by your colleagues(again, why? Due to incompetence?) into dead-end jobs where nobody cares if you produce.


Your list misses a number of options. For one thing, you ignore the entire fraction who, while having the intelligence enough to follow the work of others, may lack the ability to do new work themselves. Possibilities include those without the creativity to do original work of their own, those without the focus to sustain creativity until the new work is finished, and likely others. There's also those who have no life, and therefore do this sort of thing for an evening's amusement; and those who are simply killing some slack time while waiting for code to recompile or similar such necessary delays.

Also, science communication and science research are related but different fields. And there's other problems....

Social validation involves resisting the message by bringing to mind important others who share one's original attitude (Festinger, 1950, 1954, 1957; Festinger, Gerard, Hymovitch, Kelley, & Raven, 1952). Source derogation involves insulting the source, dismissing his or her expertise or trustworthiness, or otherwise rejecting his or her validity (Buller, 1986; Festinger, 1957; Festinger & Maccoby, 1964; Wright, 1975). Social validation and source derogation are responses that do not require message scrutiny, although both are likely to be coded as unfavorable thoughts in the general cognitive response approach. - (doi:10.1207/S15324834BASP2502_5)
 
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