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(Mercury News)   Department of Energy reaffirms that the U.S. is still dedicated to getting a million electric cars on the road, Difficulty: Finding a million people who live their entire life in a five mile radius   (mercurynews.com ) divider line
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422 clicks; posted to Business » on 02 Feb 2013 at 9:38 AM (3 years ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-02-02 07:23:19 AM  
img268.imageshack.us

Yeah, well, *I* live my life a quarter-mile at a time!
 
2013-02-02 07:33:27 AM  
How is that difficult? Have you never lived in a city, subby?
 
2013-02-02 07:49:40 AM  
Electric cars have a five mile radius?  Hey Subtard, you know that they've advanced beyond AA batteries, right?
 
2013-02-02 08:08:49 AM  
Hmm, I actually do spend a lot of my life in a 5 mile radius...
 
2013-02-02 08:14:36 AM  
No kidding. I live 35 miles from work. Why? Because rent is about a grand a month in MAINE for a family of four in a slum.
 
2013-02-02 08:37:36 AM  
I'll take a Tesla Model X, please. Thank you, Deparment of Energy.
 
2013-02-02 09:44:05 AM  

ajgeek: No kidding. I live 35 miles from work. Why? Because rent is about a grand a month in MAINE for a family of four in a slum.


so that's why you live in the slum?  or why you don't live there

we need more information-- sin celery yours truly fark
 
2013-02-02 09:46:38 AM  

JerseyTim: I'll take a Tesla Model X, please. Thank you, Deparment of Energy.


This. If they're willing to send me an electric car, I'll use it.
Until then I'll use my old beater to get to campus and back, thanks.
 
2013-02-02 09:49:43 AM  
Most people live in about a twenty mile radius but they imagine that they regularly drive the Rubicon hence the market for four door Jeeps.
 
2013-02-02 10:00:57 AM  

ajgeek: No kidding. I live 35 miles from work. Why? Because rent is about a grand a month in MAINE for a family of four in a slum.


That's cheap. cost you about 1800 a month here to live in a crappy place.
 
2013-02-02 10:02:20 AM  
I'd rather have 1 car for everything than 1 car for commuting and 1 car for real trips. I think the impact of the second car's existence outweighs any efficiency benefits, but I stand open to be corrected with maths and datas. If you make an electric car I can use for everything, including 800 mile each way road trips, I'm in.
 
2013-02-02 10:03:01 AM  
If only there were a densely populated area with lots of stuff in a small radius with roads built to handle the traffic.

and what if this place, and places like it, also had issues with air pollution that could uniquely benefit from these vehicles
 
2013-02-02 10:05:47 AM  

MurphyMurphy: If only there were a densely populated area with lots of stuff in a small radius with roads built to handle the traffic.

and what if this place, and places like it, also had issues with air pollution that could uniquely benefit from these vehicles


Most of those places already have efficient mass transit setup which solves the problem better than electric cars can.
 
2013-02-02 10:13:16 AM  

Rincewind53: How is that difficult? Have you never lived in a city, subby?


Pretty much this.

There's a reason my 1998 new vehicle has 80,000 miles on it now. Most days it sits parked while I either walk to work or use transit or do most errands on foot too.

The way a lot of city people do it, and have for decades, particularly in places outside America, where they built really better transit thus their cities are even bigger.

Look at where most of Americans live nowadays, its not rural areas, hasn't been for a while now. Suburbs are our big remaining problem, sprawl where cars are required. Texas loves that sh*t. But then Texas is worthless unless you build a road on it to get out faster.
 
2013-02-02 10:13:29 AM  

JerseyTim: I'll take a Tesla Model X, please. Thank you, Deparment of Energy.


Yes please!!!  We just sat in a Model S and I nearly needed a cigarette afterwards
 
2013-02-02 10:17:09 AM  

Lost Thought 00: I'd rather have 1 car for everything than 1 car for commuting and 1 car for real trips. I think the impact of the second car's existence outweighs any efficiency benefits, but I stand open to be corrected with maths and datas. If you make an electric car I can use for everything, including 800 mile each way road trips, I'm in.


We'll likely have a plug in hybrid or full electric by the end of the year.  So as a family we'll have cars that fit both categories. When we drive around town for errands and what not, it will be the electric.  For anything beyond that range, or where we need more room, it will be a conventional ICE.  For single person households, it is more of a dilemma.  But cars like the new battery first then gas Priuse, CMax, Volt and what not will help bridge that gap until the ranges are more reasonable and charging is more accessible.
 
2013-02-02 10:26:39 AM  
So, while I no interest in an electric car (other than the Tesla X!), lady I know has a Volt, and as much as I wanted to make fun of it, it's pretty damned cool.  Plus she goes about 50 miles a day in it with no issues.

/and somehow convinced her work to let her charge it there!
 
2013-02-02 10:30:49 AM  

Generation_D: Rincewind53: How is that difficult? Have you never lived in a city, subby?

Pretty much this.

There's a reason my 1998 new vehicle has 80,000 miles on it now. Most days it sits parked while I either walk to work or use transit or do most errands on foot too.

The way a lot of city people do it, and have for decades, particularly in places outside America, where they built really better transit thus their cities are even bigger.

Look at where most of Americans live nowadays, its not rural areas, hasn't been for a while now. Suburbs are our big remaining problem, sprawl where cars are required. Texas loves that sh*t. But then Texas is worthless unless you build a road on it to get out faster.


I never really considered living in the suburbs and a house to be a problem.  Much better to me than an apartment in a urban environment.

/lived in both; no desire to move back into a city.
 
NFA
2013-02-02 10:35:32 AM  
The haters on this topic astonish me. No one is forcing anyone to drive an electric car, If you don't want one don't buy one.  Why do they insist on trying to manipulate the choices made by others?
 
2013-02-02 10:40:45 AM  
"What is 'New York City', Alex?"

/electrify the cab fleet, you'll get close to a million right there
 
2013-02-02 10:58:12 AM  

Lost Thought 00: I'd rather have 1 car for everything than 1 car for commuting and 1 car for real trips. I think the impact of the second car's existence outweighs any efficiency benefits, but I stand open to be corrected with maths and datas. If you make an electric car I can use for everything, including 800 mile each way road trips, I'm in.


You can use rental ICE cars for the real trips. My brothers and sisters and I just rent a minivan every Thanksgiving so that we can do 700 mile drive to my other sisters in one car with multiple drivers. Same goes for trucks and getting lots of building material around. YMMV
 
2013-02-02 11:00:32 AM  
Subby, if you're going to play the "I'm an ignorant buffoon" card, why not go for a "Blacks are drug dealers",  "Jews steal from your bank account", or "Benghazi is a scandal" headline? You know, something that is a bit humorous.
 
2013-02-02 11:14:23 AM  
NFA;
If you don't want one don't buy one.

...and most people don't want one - even those city people who might be able to use one from time to time.
 
2013-02-02 11:17:31 AM  
I have an electric car, which has a nominal 100 mile range ( a bit less, actually). In spite of having a longer commute than average, it works great. Also, it cost $8500 after federal tax credit (thanks, dept of energy), and the monthly payments are less than I was paying for gas? Also, even though it is less powerful than most  electric cars, it is more fun to drive than my gas powered car.  But yeah I can't go to Yellowstone in it, so of course I was stupid to get it.
 
2013-02-02 11:26:33 AM  

dsmith42: Lost Thought 00: I'd rather have 1 car for everything than 1 car for commuting and 1 car for real trips. I think the impact of the second car's existence outweighs any efficiency benefits, but I stand open to be corrected with maths and datas. If you make an electric car I can use for everything, including 800 mile each way road trips, I'm in.

You can use rental ICE cars for the real trips. My brothers and sisters and I just rent a minivan every Thanksgiving so that we can do 700 mile drive to my other sisters in one car with multiple drivers. Same goes for trucks and getting lots of building material around. YMMV


Reminds me of a friend who convinced himself he needed a half-ton pickup with a V-10 engine because he had to tow his fishing boat twice a year when he took it to/from the lake.  Of course, he had a 50-mile-each-way commute and biatched about gas prices constantly.

An electric car would have been perfect for me a few years ago, since I drove to work about 35 usually stop-and-go miles away but otherwise had everything and everyone I needed within a 5 mile radius of home.  Apparently that company installed charging posts in the parking lot just after I quit.

/then I sold my car, moved to the city, walk or take public transit everywhere, and only drive when I'm on vacation
 
2013-02-02 11:33:07 AM  
I do service work in a rural area. No way I could use an electric, right?

Well, actually I only have a maximum average daily range of about 60 miles. Now if I can just find an electric truck or van I can afford.
 
2013-02-02 11:33:43 AM  

NFA: The haters on this topic astonish me. No one is forcing anyone to drive an electric car, If you don't want one don't buy one.  Why do they insist on trying to manipulate the choices made by others?


I'm convinced that emotional choices (what car to drive) evoke overly emotional responses when others make different choices.

Think car owners are bad? Wait til the bike riders get here. They'll be along shortly, that was a steep hill back there.
 
2013-02-02 11:57:15 AM  
my next car will be electric (maybe a hybrid). I'm perfectly happy with a small radius and renting another car if I need one.
My parents have a prius, and its a wonderful car. I bought a corolla in 2010 however, so it'll be awhile til I'm ready to buy. Sorry DoE.
 
2013-02-02 12:18:16 PM  
the biggest issue with adoption of electric cars is the technology needed to put them on par with gas and diesel powered cars is just not their yet  batteries need  to be made smaller and lighter while being able to give the car range equal to a gas powered car and a fast way to recharge them, like some manner of battery switch out stations but that would require one type be standardized for the industry.   Also the prices need to be no more than 10% more than the cost of a gas powered car.
 
2013-02-02 12:18:24 PM  

Generation_D: NFA: The haters on this topic astonish me. No one is forcing anyone to drive an electric car, If you don't want one don't buy one.  Why do they insist on trying to manipulate the choices made by others?

I'm convinced that emotional choices (what car to drive) evoke overly emotional responses when others make different choices.

Think car owners are bad? Wait til the bike riders get here. They'll be along shortly, that was a steep hill back there.


I think that life choices which mirror life choices validate life choices.  You see it in its most extreme form among the newly married and new homeowners.

/married
//homeowner
 
2013-02-02 12:25:35 PM  

Dufus: I do service work in a rural area. No way I could use an electric, right?

Well, actually I only have a maximum average daily range of about 60 miles. Now if I can just find an electric truck or van I can afford.


I don't know how mechanically inclined you are, but doing your own conversion is a great way to get an electric car cheaper. As far as trucks go, perhaps the most widely converted vehicle is the Chevy s10, and there are step by step instructions and components readily available for that. As much as it pains me to say it, go brushed DC and it will be relatively affordable. Also, buy batteries last since the prices are rapidly dropping.

Me, I am converting a 1970 Opel GT because it is badass.
 
Zel [TotalFark]
2013-02-02 01:26:38 PM  
Yes I live in a city where a short range would be useful.  No I don't have an electrical hookup on the street parking, nor my apartment's lot.

Is this for city-dwelling homeowners? How many of those could there be?
 
2013-02-02 01:36:30 PM  
Not quite as ridiculous as the EPA's cellulosic ethanol mandate.
 
2013-02-02 01:39:21 PM  

Jon iz teh kewl: so that's why you live in the slum? or why you don't live there

we need more information-- sin celery yours truly fark


I don't live there. I can't justify 35% of my income going to someone who doesn't take care of their property.
 
vpb [TotalFark]
2013-02-02 01:40:33 PM  
I live my life in about a 10 mile radius.  I'll buy one when they don't cost $30,000.
 
2013-02-02 01:43:13 PM  

Rapmaster2000: Most people live in about a twenty mile radius but they imagine that they regularly drive the Rubicon hence the market for four door Jeeps.


I imagine that I regularly drive among drug-addled, illegal, lamebrained illiterates who drive like they're on a mission to take out the Essex, hence my preference for a Land Cruiser.
 
2013-02-02 01:53:55 PM  
Meh, I expect hybrids to be the norm soon enough.  Either they'll be an assist motor like you have in the Prius, or you'll have an all-electric powertrain with a turbine generator for extended range.
 
2013-02-02 02:10:21 PM  
I've had my Volt for a month now, driven nearly 600 miles and used only 1.5 gallons of gas. So I am really getting a kick out of this thread.

/hoping my carpool stickers come this week.
 
2013-02-02 02:11:33 PM  

vpb: I live my life in about a 10 mile radius.  I'll buy one when they don't cost $30,000.



Your welcome
 
2013-02-02 02:14:37 PM  

beer4breakfast: Not quite as ridiculous as the EPA's cellulosic ethanol mandate.


Ethanol's probably not the long-term biofuel of choice, but it's a good start and it's better to make it from waste cellulose than from food crops. The ridiculous part is that the traditional fuel companies are dragging their heels and filing lawsuits instead of investing in the technology.

From that link: "The 2012 level proved to be overly optimistic with about 20,000 gallons actually being generated as production of the advanced biofuel struggled to get off the ground. "

Meanwhile in Canada, one Iogen demonstration plant has averaged more than 60,000 gallons per year since 2004.
 
2013-02-02 02:53:19 PM  
We could easily switch to an all electric commuter car and a hybrid minivan/SUV, and not change a thing about our lifestyle. Of course, that would require $80k or so, and the trade in value of our cars is not close to that, so it's probably not going to happen anytime soon. Sorry, DoE.
 
2013-02-02 03:07:13 PM  

jjorsett: Rapmaster2000: Most people live in about a twenty mile radius but they imagine that they regularly drive the Rubicon hence the market for four door Jeeps.

I imagine that I regularly drive among drug-addled, illegal, lamebrained illiterates who drive like they're on a mission to take out the Essex, hence my preference for a Land Cruiser.


Land Cruisers are forever cool.  If I were you, I would imagine that I'm ferrying arms and khat for the local warlord.
 
2013-02-02 03:14:56 PM  

MurphyMurphy: If only there were a densely populated area with lots of stuff in a small radius with roads built to handle the traffic.

and what if this place, and places like it, also had issues with air pollution that could uniquely benefit from these vehicles


Most of the people who live in those areas are too poor for personal transportation beyond shoes or a bicycle.
 
2013-02-02 03:19:14 PM  

FitzShivering: So, while I no interest in an electric car (other than the Tesla X!), lady I know has a Volt, and as much as I wanted to make fun of it, it's pretty damned cool.  Plus she goes about 50 miles a day in it with no issues.

/and somehow convinced her work to let her charge it there!


I really wouldn't mind having a Volt-like car, but I wouldn't use it as a plug-in hybrid, I'd just use it as a transmissionless hybrid.   No place to plug it in at home, no place to plug it in at work, and electricity isn't all that cheap and gasoline isn't all that expensive.  But eliminating the transmission opens up all sorts of opportunities for efficiency.

Also:  Gimme hub motors already.  Besides the AWD benefits, imagine what you could REALLY do with active handling when you have direct control over each wheel's torque...
 
2013-02-02 03:56:12 PM  

Mister Peejay: But eliminating the transmission opens up all sorts of opportunities for efficiency.


Not to mention that electric motors have gobs of torque.  And as you mentioned, hub motors would blow traditional AWD away...
 
2013-02-02 04:00:49 PM  

Lost Thought 00: MurphyMurphy: If only there were a densely populated area with lots of stuff in a small radius with roads built to handle the traffic.

and what if this place, and places like it, also had issues with air pollution that could uniquely benefit from these vehicles

Most of those places already have efficient mass transit setup which solves the problem better than electric cars can.


Except most of the "efficient mass transit " does run when you need where you need. My wife's 17-minute auto commute would be almost 85 minutes on mass transit.
 
2013-02-02 04:05:29 PM  

grimlock1972: the biggest issue with adoption of electric cars is the technology needed to put them on par with gas and diesel powered cars is just not their yet  batteries need  to be made smaller and lighter while being able to give the car range equal to a gas powered car and a fast way to recharge them, like some manner of battery switch out stations but that would require one type be standardized for the industry.   Also the prices need to be no more than 10% more than the cost of a gas powered car.


This talking point is becoming less and less true every day.


Lithium batteries are already small enough. The Tesla model S has a 300 mile range with today's batteries. They add a bit of weight but not it isn't a problem at all.  And longer ranges are not needed.


The charging speed is not as big of a problem as you think. People always try to. Figure out how to make it as fast as getting gas, but that is the wrong way to think about it.  When you get an electric car, the way you think about refueling changes.  In a gas car, you refuel when you are on your way somewhere so it has to be fast. But with an electric car, the overwhelming amount of recharging occurs when you are somewhere for an extended period of time. Batteries can be recharged at .2C without any damage, so that is 5 hours, independent of pack size. The only time that charging speed comes into play is for long trips.  If you have a 100 mile pack, long trips don't work. But with today's technology, a 300 mile pack with fast charging capabilities is fine for a cross country trip. Charging at 1C for short periods of time allows you to recharge 150 mile range in 30 minutes.  So if you start off driving 300 miles, add 150 at lunch time and another 150 at dinner, you can drive 600 miles only stopping for a total of 1 hour. That charging infrastructure is not there yet, but will be there within a year. Would this work for everyone? No, but the vast majority of people could drive that way with absolutely no inconvenience.


The price issue is the only place that is still a problem.  Electrics can compete at the high end luxury levels--the top version of the model s is as nice or nicer as other 90k cars. But the cheaper EVs do not have the 300 mile range that makes the above disc riptide of things work. They still do work well even from a financial standpoint for commuter cars if you need one anyway. Fuel payback time is only about 5 years, which works well.  But anyway, in another year or two that price reality is going to change.  I am sure the talking points will persist much longer though, until it is painfully obvious that they are wrong.

 
2013-02-02 04:08:41 PM  

natazha: Lost Thought 00: MurphyMurphy: If only there were a densely populated area with lots of stuff in a small radius with roads built to handle the traffic.

and what if this place, and places like it, also had issues with air pollution that could uniquely benefit from these vehicles

Most of those places already have efficient mass transit setup which solves the problem better than electric cars can.

Except most of the "efficient mass transit " does run when you need where you need. My wife's 17-minute auto commute would be almost 85 minutes on mass transit.



Where do you live? Yeah mass transit is slower, but unless you are greatly exaggerating, that's a pretty rotten transit system.
 
2013-02-02 04:45:34 PM  

Hollie Maea: I have an electric car, which has a nominal 100 mile range ( a bit less, actually). In spite of having a longer commute than average, it works great. Also, it cost $8500 after federal tax credit (thanks, dept of energy), and the monthly payments are less than I was paying for gas? Also, even though it is less powerful than most  electric cars, it is more fun to drive than my gas powered car.  But yeah I can't go to Yellowstone in it, so of course I was stupid to get it.


What kind of car? I reeeealy want an EV. I just can't afford a Model S. I know there are cheaper EVs but they're actually not that much cheaper.
 
2013-02-02 05:05:30 PM  

badLogic: I've had my Volt for a month now, driven nearly 600 miles and used only 1.5 gallons of gas. So I am really getting a kick out of this thread.

/hoping my carpool stickers come this week.


The Volt is interesting, but given the choice I think I'd rather have the Opel version in diesel.  Shame GM won't let them in or offer a diesel version themselves.

Truth be told, think I'd rather just have a regular car powered by liquified natural gas.
 
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