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(The Atlantic)   Boy Scouts of America: "Oh alright, the gays can join, as long as they're not godless heathens"   (theatlantic.com) divider line 343
    More: Asinine, Boy Scouts of America, atheist groups, religious discrimination, atheists, gays, Human Rights Campaign  
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10332 clicks; posted to Main » on 01 Feb 2013 at 6:29 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-02-01 07:29:42 PM  
My scout troop was awesome.  We went backpacking, and rafting, and camping on the Outer Banks, and all sorts of cool stuff.  I don't recall ever talking about religion except maybe a prayer once or twice, and we didn't have to wear the lame uniforms except in meetings, not in public or camping like some do.  We did some community service but it was always kind of fun.

/molestation-free too!
 
2013-02-01 07:31:17 PM  
img2.etsystatic.com


There's you answer right there.
 
2013-02-01 07:33:16 PM  

KangTheMad: GF named my left testicle thundercles: [i1172.photobucket.com image 500x642]
i was a boy scout and an atheist. from my experience, religion isnt a big part of the boyscouts. in fact i have never considered it be a religious organization and i dont recall any religious tone. i dont know where this article is coming from. i also dont understand all the recent hate for it. its a great organization and should be able to do what it feels is best for the development of young men that wish to participate.

The nut-wing religious folk got their paws on the decision-making seats and have been pushing for known homosexuals to be kicked out. This led to a den mother being kicked out for being lesbian, and the internet sorta went off like a bomb.


women are allowed in the boy scouts? since when? i thought that it was a purely fraternal organization
 
2013-02-01 07:36:18 PM  

CruJones: My scout troop was awesome.  We went backpacking, and rafting, and camping on the Outer Banks, and all sorts of cool stuff.  I don't recall ever talking about religion except maybe a prayer once or twice, and we didn't have to wear the lame uniforms except in meetings, not in public or camping like some do.  We did some community service but it was always kind of fun.

/molestation-free too!


Closest I ever came to seeing molestation was seeing the occasional scoutmaster from another troop shirtless at camp. With the physical condition of some of those scoutmasters, that'll scar you for life, but I never heard of it happening, or even whispers of it.

Now, the Catholic Church I grew up going to, on the other hand... Well, one of the priests was moved to a parish across the country, we'll just say that. There were some pretty loud whispers on that one.

\Family left the Church a few years later, but it wasn't related to that.
 
2013-02-01 07:36:27 PM  

lawlz: Why would they openly allow pedophiles to join, let alone lead?


zenster.net
 
2013-02-01 07:37:08 PM  
All the other Cubmasters get a chuckle and give me a thumbs-up when we have to say the oath.

My proudest moment was when they all vowed to walk away from the org if they were ever asked to turn away someone based on their sexual orientation or religious beliefs.
 
2013-02-01 07:38:00 PM  
Came for big gay al, leaving disappointed
 
2013-02-01 07:38:23 PM  

ManateeGag: it's a start...


Give it another 20 years or so, and every single person in the country, without exception, will think, believe and act exactly the same. In the name of diversity.
 
2013-02-01 07:38:32 PM  
If they imagine that a child's reverence matters at all, well, they're delusional.  I know a lot of catholics who grew out of their beliefs, including myself.  Yet when i was a kid I happily went through the motions. No matter how much you indoctrinate a kid, at some point they can realize that the conversation with god is very one sided.
 
2013-02-01 07:38:34 PM  

GF named my left testicle thundercles: KangTheMad: GF named my left testicle thundercles: [i1172.photobucket.com image 500x642]
i was a boy scout and an atheist. from my experience, religion isnt a big part of the boyscouts. in fact i have never considered it be a religious organization and i dont recall any religious tone. i dont know where this article is coming from. i also dont understand all the recent hate for it. its a great organization and should be able to do what it feels is best for the development of young men that wish to participate.

The nut-wing religious folk got their paws on the decision-making seats and have been pushing for known homosexuals to be kicked out. This led to a den mother being kicked out for being lesbian, and the internet sorta went off like a bomb.

women are allowed in the boy scouts? since when? i thought that it was a purely fraternal organization


Women are allowed in as leaders. And den leader is cub scouts, not boy scouts.
 
2013-02-01 07:39:06 PM  

cptjeff: Wimp. That's what the groundsheet is for.


What groundsheet?
 
2013-02-01 07:41:48 PM  

ShawnDoc: Guess you'll never get to join the Masons then.


The Masons require belief in a supreme being.

upload.wikimedia.org
 
2013-02-01 07:42:34 PM  

Jaws_Victim: neppyman:
/ Eagle Scout.
// OA initiate, and yes, OA is a cult.

Could someone explain the Order of the Arrow bullshiat? When I was in scouts they required a nomination each year, and I was the only one in our small group who was of age to do it. They all told me I would be nominated and I told them I wouldn't do it, no matter what. The only reason I could give was that someone told me I had to go into the woods all day and night with no food and set up shelter and in Washington State that meant 40 degree or less and pouring rain. No thanks.

So the camping trip came, and they have this big whole stupid ceremony you  have to do. You stand in a big circle with the initiates all over the state and a Native American guy in the center talks about it. They give each of you an arrow, and then there is a portion where they say something like "If you do not wish to tread this path, lay down your arrows and none shall be judged." threw the arrow down and left.

Unfortunately, they didn't count on anyone doing that. Because no one had done that in twenty YEARS of the order of the arrow happening. I was able to leave, but because of how "secret" it was I ended up getting blocked by two Order of the Arrow posts outside the ceremony to keep anyone from entering. One was this dickhole scoutmaster who COULD NOT BELIEVE I declined such an honor. On my personal escort back to camp, I was told what a failure I was, how no one had ever declined, what a disgrace to scouting I was, etc etc.

My scoutmaster and leaders were totally cool, and after the trip that dude had serious issues. But what the fark? Why is order of the arrow such a big screaming deal? What did I thankfully miss out on?


I interpreted OA to be overeaters anonymous. Hardy har.
 
2013-02-01 07:42:45 PM  
Eagle Scout.  Had a good experience with scouts.  Lots of camping, hiking, rafting.

There is one thing though... they're not getting a penny from me until they stop discriminating against gays/atheists.
 
2013-02-01 07:43:21 PM  

cptjeff: Wait, there are troops that took the popcorn seriously?


Wayyyy back when I was in(Life, no OA) we sold fertilizer and lawn bags, paid for our summer backpacking trips in CO,MO,NM, ect.

Now one kid just bridged from weebelo to scouts, and my wife is our youngest's den mother.

I'm atheist, she's pagan, we do not bring it up.
 
2013-02-01 07:44:14 PM  

DrPainMD: ManateeGag: it's a start...

Give it another 20 years or so, and every single person in the country, without exception, will think, believe and act exactly the same. In the name of diversity.


What are you griping about now?
 
2013-02-01 07:46:16 PM  
Fark the Boy Scouts. It's a worthless organization. Does *anybody* who joins the Boy Scouts get anything out of it? It's a weird little club where you do weird little activities. I've never understood it. Nobody I know understands the appeal.
 
2013-02-01 07:46:50 PM  

cptjeff: GF named my left testicle thundercles: KangTheMad: GF named my left testicle thundercles: [i1172.photobucket.com image 500x642]
i was a boy scout and an atheist. from my experience, religion isnt a big part of the boyscouts. in fact i have never considered it be a religious organization and i dont recall any religious tone. i dont know where this article is coming from. i also dont understand all the recent hate for it. its a great organization and should be able to do what it feels is best for the development of young men that wish to participate.

The nut-wing religious folk got their paws on the decision-making seats and have been pushing for known homosexuals to be kicked out. This led to a den mother being kicked out for being lesbian, and the internet sorta went off like a bomb.

women are allowed in the boy scouts? since when? i thought that it was a purely fraternal organization

Women are allowed in as leaders. And den leader is cub scouts, not boy scouts.


If they fight hard enough they can get into regular Boy Scouts too. One of my old friend's insane sister threatened to sue if they didn't allow her to join (thank god it wasn't our troop). She was also in OA. She's one of those who believes that women can AND MUST do everything better (not equal, but better) than a man. The belief was shattered when her femur was shattered after challenging a 6th degree blackbelt (male of course) in a Karate Tournament because she wanted to prove how tough she was. One hard kick and she was on the mat. Still crazy, but at least she doesn't go around purposely antagonizing people.
 
2013-02-01 07:47:24 PM  

GoldSpider: cptjeff: Wimp. That's what the groundsheet is for.

What groundsheet?


We were told to bring a sleeping bag and a groundsheet. I guess they didn't mention that a tarp of some sort might come in handy when you did it?
 
2013-02-01 07:48:17 PM  

Lady Indica: "The Boy Scouts of America maintains that no member can grow into the best kind of citizen without recognizing an obligation to God "

Riiiiiight.


That right there is why my son quit just short of finishing his Eagle. The Scouts instilled in him a sense of fairness and doing what's right (his mom and I helped, I hope), and so he used it.
 
2013-02-01 07:48:19 PM  

Bermuda59: What about the Irish?


Citation granted:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=boO4RowROiw
 
2013-02-01 07:48:39 PM  

Sum Guye: ShawnDoc: Guess you'll never get to join the Masons then.

The Masons require belief in a supreme being.

[upload.wikimedia.org image 800x451]


"Supreme Being" is in accordance to the initiate's interpretation. Your Supreme Being, or Grand Architecht of the Universe, could be physics. Political and religious discussion is forbidden in Lodges.
 
2013-02-01 07:49:32 PM  

KangTheMad: Political and religious discussion is forbidden in Lodges.


What's left?
 
2013-02-01 07:51:02 PM  

Jaws_Victim: cptjeff: Jaws_Victim: neppyman:
/ Eagle Scout.
// OA initiate, and yes, OA is a cult.

The ordeal and ceremonies are just kind of a side item to give it an air of mystery and make it seem like more of a thing than it is. It's really just an excuse to hang out with a bunch of older and more serious scouts and leaders from other troops on a regular basis, which is fun. There ...

Sounds stupid. Hated the scouts, was a nerdy kid who liked to read books. Older boys usually just ignored me. Sounds like it would've been another predictably annoying experience when I just wanted to be left alone to read a book.


It's not stupid if you don't hate people in general.
 
2013-02-01 07:51:25 PM  

realmolo: Does *anybody* who joins the Boy Scouts get anything out of it? It's a weird little club where you do weird little activities. I've never understood it. Nobody I know understands the appeal.


I got a scholarship and a lot of school assistance when I went to college. It also helped me get my first job (interviewer/boss was an Eagle Scout). It does take some hard work and dedication to reach Eagle and most people recognize that.

Now when I went I didn't know about their exclusionary policies. We had a gay kid and a few athiests. Hell most of our leadership were athiests. As long as you did your job they didn't care who or what you believed in. I had a great time. And yes, I'm ashamed now by how their acting, but like ManateeGag said, it's a start....
 
2013-02-01 07:51:52 PM  
The name "Boy Scouts" should clue you in that religion is involved.
 
2013-02-01 07:52:03 PM  

cptjeff: GoldSpider: All I remember about OA was the shelterless sleep-out.

Yes, it rained.

Wimp. That's what the groundsheet is for.

We got parked on a hill. I woke up about 30 feet from where I went to bed.


snert, you funny.
 
2013-02-01 07:52:39 PM  

cptjeff: KangTheMad: Political and religious discussion is forbidden in Lodges.

What's left?


Masons are pretty big on charity, and you need to be philosophical about your interpretation of Masonic principles and codes to advance in rank.

I'm not a mason, so I don't know much beyond that.
 
2013-02-01 07:54:24 PM  
I've never understood the whole "higher power" concept. Does gravity count? How about the weak nuclear force?
 
2013-02-01 07:54:58 PM  

lostcat: I was a Cub Scout, and the pushing of the religious agenda was one of the reasons I never got past Webelos.

My parents had nothing to do with it. They'd both been brought up in strict, religious homes, and had decided not to discuss religion with my sister and I as we grew up unless we brought it up, then they would be encyclopedic in their responses. We were free to go to church and church-related activities with our friends, or not to. They just didn't push any of it on us.

Oddly, both my sister and I grew up to be atheists (not agnostics). Funny how it works if you don't indoctrinate kids into your religion at an early age.

Anyway, I was always unhappy with the religious subtext in scouts, so I just stopped going. Not really sure why an atheist would want to be in the Scouts.


If you'd made it past Webelo, maybe you'd know.  Scouting is good for a boy, overall.  It could be good for more boys, obviously.  The BSA leadership is gradually being infiltrated by people whose priority is doing the most good for the most boys.
 
2013-02-01 07:56:14 PM  
The gay one was easy - there is nothing programmatic about sexuality in Scouting, so in all honesty, it's amazing (ok, not really) that it wasn't removed earlier.

The great rub though of Scouting is that faith and religion are all over the program, though emphasis of such is very diverse depending on the troop.  My troop didn't look the other way but they did kinda the bare minimum to address faith in the program.

But the bigger issue is not the program but the charter organizations.  If you make faith optional in the program, you might have a decent shot at retaining a good portion of the charter organizations.  If you remove it completely - they're f*cked for quite awhile.
 
2013-02-01 07:56:53 PM  

TappingTheVein: Interesting, coming from an organization founded by a closeted homosexual.


Maybe he was not homosexual towards men but really really enjoyed watching young naked boys develop into young naked men.

Up through at least the 1960s is was almost a rule that all male groups would swim naked - the Boy Scouts, the YMCA pool etc. As a kid I swam naked in the officer's pool at the Pentagon and attended a High School where swimming in gym class was naked.

I guess it was the start of legitimization of homosexuality at the end of the 1960s that turned guys into prudes. If homos weren't being arrested and sent to prison then maybe some of the naked guys you hang out with might get so turned on looking at you that they want you.

I've heard that many Schools now have individual stalls for showers after gym to protect children from the gaze of gays.
 
2013-02-01 07:57:03 PM  

cptjeff: Jaws_Victim: neppyman:
/ Eagle Scout.
// OA initiate, and yes, OA is a cult.

Could someone explain the Order of the Arrow bullshiat? When I was in scouts they required a nomination each year, and I was the only one in our small group who was of age to do it. They all told me I would be nominated and I told them I wouldn't do it, no matter what. The only reason I could give was that someone told me I had to go into the woods all day and night with no food and set up shelter and in Washington State that meant 40 degree or less and pouring rain. No thanks.

So the camping trip came, and they have this big whole stupid ceremony you  have to do. You stand in a big circle with the initiates all over the state and a Native American guy in the center talks about it. They give each of you an arrow, and then there is a portion where they say something like "If you do not wish to tread this path, lay down your arrows and none shall be judged." threw the arrow down and left.

Unfortunately, they didn't count on anyone doing that. Because no one had done that in twenty YEARS of the order of the arrow happening. I was able to leave, but because of how "secret" it was I ended up getting blocked by two Order of the Arrow posts outside the ceremony to keep anyone from entering. One was this dickhole scoutmaster who COULD NOT BELIEVE I declined such an honor. On my personal escort back to camp, I was told what a failure I was, how no one had ever declined, what a disgrace to scouting I was, etc etc.

My scoutmaster and leaders were totally cool, and after the trip that dude had serious issues. But what the fark? Why is order of the arrow such a big screaming deal? What did I thankfully miss out on?

The ordeal and ceremonies are just kind of a side item to give it an air of mystery and make it seem like more of a thing than it is. It's really just an excuse to hang out with a bunch of older and more serious scouts and leaders from other troops on a regular basis, which is fun. There ...


It was the WWW before there was the internet....
 
2013-02-01 07:57:33 PM  

Mrtraveler01: El_Frijole_Blanco: MaudlinMutantMollusk: A Scout is:

Trustworthy,Loyal,Helpful,Friendly,Courteous,Kind,Obedient,Cheerful, Thrifty,Brave,Clean,and Reverent. I never could get more than 11 out of 12

As a 12 year old boy I am sure most of that list gets tossed out except maybe the gay kids have better hygiene

The Clean part of it really meant "morally clean" moreso than hygiene.

At least that's what I was told.


It would have to be. Because by the time those kids hit middle school age, they are anything but physically clean.
[ponders]
And if they are morally clean, it's only for want of opportunity.
 
2013-02-01 07:57:55 PM  
No Klondyke Derby references?
 
2013-02-01 08:00:26 PM  

realmolo: Fark the Boy Scouts. It's a worthless organization. Does *anybody* who joins the Boy Scouts get anything out of it? It's a weird little club where you do weird little activities. I've never understood it. Nobody I know understands the appeal.


City queers usually don't get it.

\\JK....they get it.
\\\They get it in the arse.

\\\\doesn't hate the gays, just being snarky.
 
2013-02-01 08:00:28 PM  
If the Boy Scouts is a private organization, then shouldn't they have the right to choose who they let in or not?  Just how welcomed are the first few gays going to feel?  You're only here because the government said we couldn't deny you.  That's going to make them feel good on the first day.

Now, if the Boy Scouts is funded by tax payers and through the government then why did it take so long for this to happen?  I honestly don't know if they are privately funded or not.  Just believe that if a private entity doesn't want a certain group to be a part of them, then they should have the right to say "no".
 
2013-02-01 08:00:39 PM  

cptjeff: Lionel Mandrake: fusillade762: Boy scouting is a religion.

Don't be silly.  AA is a religion.  Amway is a religion.  Freemasonry is a religion.

The Boy Scouts are a cult.  Like $cientology.

You have to get a little further in for the cult stuff. 1st class at least and voted in by your fellow scouts.

\Actually, the OA is the BSA's take on a secret society.
\\Lotsa fun.


Except it's not a secret society.  (It Was.)  According to policy, parents can observe the ceremonies if they desire.  Not well known, but that's the policy.

//20 years in the OA, and like anywhere else, you gotta marginalize the crazies and take the organization for what it is, a service organization in the vein of the National Honor Society with a dash of Free Masonry.  Yes people take it too seriously, but my lodge has done a lot for the community recently.
 
2013-02-01 08:01:39 PM  
Boy Scouts is a cool organization. Needs more gun training tho.

We are all winners when its about guns and butt sex.

Shake and bake!
 
2013-02-01 08:03:49 PM  

KangTheMad: "Supreme Being" is in accordance to the initiate's interpretation. Your Supreme Being, or Grand Architecht of the Universe, could be physics. Political and religious discussion is forbidden in Lodges.


Oh, now that's just being dishonest and you know it.  Pretending to be something you're not -- whether by flat out lying or being deceptive by omission -- to join a discriminatory organization is something that takes a complete lack of personal integrity.

/mother of two atheist sons who, after hearing about the organization's stance on atheism, want nothing to do with it.
 
2013-02-01 08:04:13 PM  

Mrtraveler01: The Clean part of it really meant "morally clean" moreso than hygiene.


I did OA Trail Crew up at Northern Tier. Two sets of clothes, one wet for paddling and working (busting up rocks with a sledgehammer, that sort of thing), one for wearing in camp. Two weeks. Hygiene was not high on the priority list, but when you all smell equally awful...

Still, showers were nice at the end.
 
2013-02-01 08:04:27 PM  

KangTheMad: "Supreme Being" is in accordance to the initiate's interpretation. Your Supreme Being, or Grand Architecht of the Universe, could be physics. Political and religious discussion is forbidden in Lodges.


It's part of what makes it a great organization.
 
2013-02-01 08:05:08 PM  
So, wait...What if you are a Muslim or Scientologist? Or does it only matter that you have faith in some sort of unprovable, all-powerful entity's existance?
 
2013-02-01 08:06:40 PM  

lostcat: So, wait...What if you are a Muslim or Scientologist? Or does it only matter that you have faith in some sort of unprovable, all-powerful entity's existance?


Or what about faith in something that actually exists?  For example, I personally believe in the phone company.
 
2013-02-01 08:07:12 PM  

HortusMatris: KangTheMad: "Supreme Being" is in accordance to the initiate's interpretation. Your Supreme Being, or Grand Architecht of the Universe, could be physics. Political and religious discussion is forbidden in Lodges.

Oh, now that's just being dishonest and you know it.  Pretending to be something you're not -- whether by flat out lying or being deceptive by omission -- to join a discriminatory organization is something that takes a complete lack of personal integrity.

/mother of two atheist sons who, after hearing about the organization's stance on atheism, want nothing to do with it.


Well, since you have no interest in changing the organization from within, I might suggest trying to change it from the outside.  The program as a whole is great and it is unfortunate that they have not adopted a more inclusive policy.  I hope they change the policy one day, and I hope folks who were upset with the policy take another look if it changes.
 
2013-02-01 08:07:17 PM  

coeyagi: cptjeff: Lionel Mandrake: fusillade762: Boy scouting is a religion.

Don't be silly.  AA is a religion.  Amway is a religion.  Freemasonry is a religion.

The Boy Scouts are a cult.  Like $cientology.

You have to get a little further in for the cult stuff. 1st class at least and voted in by your fellow scouts.

\Actually, the OA is the BSA's take on a secret society.
\\Lotsa fun.

Except it's not a secret society.  (It Was.)  According to policy, parents can observe the ceremonies if they desire.  Not well known, but that's the policy.


When did they make that rule? Granted, I was only involved as a youth, but the only people I ever saw, or heard of being there, were members. I even did ceremonies for a while, and never saw anyone that wasn't a scout, and a member of the OA.
 
2013-02-01 08:07:58 PM  

cptjeff: Mrtraveler01: The Clean part of it really meant "morally clean" moreso than hygiene.

I did OA Trail Crew up at Northern Tier. Two sets of clothes, one wet for paddling and working (busting up rocks with a sledgehammer, that sort of thing), one for wearing in camp. Two weeks. Hygiene was not high on the priority list, but when you all smell equally awful...

Still, showers were nice at the end.


Then you must be thrilled by the new Jamboree facilities.  Sigh.
 
2013-02-01 08:09:17 PM  

cptjeff: coeyagi: cptjeff: Lionel Mandrake: fusillade762: Boy scouting is a religion.

Don't be silly.  AA is a religion.  Amway is a religion.  Freemasonry is a religion.

The Boy Scouts are a cult.  Like $cientology.

You have to get a little further in for the cult stuff. 1st class at least and voted in by your fellow scouts.

\Actually, the OA is the BSA's take on a secret society.
\\Lotsa fun.

Except it's not a secret society.  (It Was.)  According to policy, parents can observe the ceremonies if they desire.  Not well known, but that's the policy.

When did they make that rule? Granted, I was only involved as a youth, but the only people I ever saw, or heard of being there, were members. I even did ceremonies for a while, and never saw anyone that wasn't a scout, and a member of the OA.


It's in their Field Operations Guide I believe.  I gotta go look.  Like I said, not well publicized obviously, and we haven't had anyone demand to be at the ceremony in my lodge, but that's the policy.
 
2013-02-01 08:09:33 PM  
Now there's an organization determined to fling itself in to the dustbin of history.
 
2013-02-01 08:09:35 PM  

scottydoesntknow: cptjeff: GF named my left testicle thundercles: KangTheMad: GF named my left testicle thundercles: [i1172.photobucket.com image 500x642]
i was a boy scout and an atheist. from my experience, religion isnt a big part of the boyscouts. in fact i have never considered it be a religious organization and i dont recall any religious tone. i dont know where this article is coming from. i also dont understand all the recent hate for it. its a great organization and should be able to do what it feels is best for the development of young men that wish to participate.

The nut-wing religious folk got their paws on the decision-making seats and have been pushing for known homosexuals to be kicked out. This led to a den mother being kicked out for being lesbian, and the internet sorta went off like a bomb.

women are allowed in the boy scouts? since when? i thought that it was a purely fraternal organization

Women are allowed in as leaders. And den leader is cub scouts, not boy scouts.

If they fight hard enough they can get into regular Boy Scouts too. One of my old friend's insane sister threatened to sue if they didn't allow her to join (thank god it wasn't our troop). She was also in OA. She's one of those who believes that women can AND MUST do everything better (not equal, but better) than a man. The belief was shattered when her femur was shattered after challenging a 6th degree blackbelt (male of course) in a Karate Tournament because she wanted to prove how tough she was. One hard kick and she was on the mat. Still crazy, but at least she doesn't go around purposely antagonizing people.


i1172.photobucket.com
holy fark, lol. a shattered femur would be a lifelong crippling injury. her feminism has literally made her a cripple. oh god that is amazing.
 
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