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(The Atlantic)   Boy Scouts of America: "Oh alright, the gays can join, as long as they're not godless heathens"   (theatlantic.com) divider line 343
    More: Asinine, Boy Scouts of America, atheist groups, religious discrimination, atheists, gays, Human Rights Campaign  
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10322 clicks; posted to Main » on 01 Feb 2013 at 6:29 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-02-01 05:55:18 PM
Any organization that needs me to profess belief in a higher power, whether it be scouts or Alcoholic Anonymous. is not something I want to be a part of any way.


Unless, they offer steep discounts at local bars, then I would be willing to lie about my disbelief, for a couple of rounds.
 
2013-02-01 06:09:28 PM
Boy scouting is a religion.
 
2013-02-01 06:09:31 PM
it's a start...
 
2013-02-01 06:11:31 PM
A Scout is:

Trustworthy,Loyal,Helpful,Friendly,Courteous,Kind,Obedient,Cheerful, Thrifty,Brave,Clean,and Reverent. I never could get more than 11 out of 12
 
2013-02-01 06:27:01 PM
They only really ask that you fake it.
 
2013-02-01 06:30:58 PM

Ennuipoet: Any organization that needs me to profess belief in a higher power, whether it be scouts or Alcoholic Anonymous. is not something I want to be a part of any way.


Unless, they offer steep discounts at local bars, then I would be willing to lie about my disbelief, for a couple of rounds.


Guess you'll never get to join the Masons then.
 
2013-02-01 06:31:30 PM
They've already announced on the news here that most of the councils in Arizona will not be changing their stance on allowing gays.

/I know - big surprise
 
2013-02-01 06:32:35 PM

fusillade762: Boy scouting is a religion.


No it's not. Don't be an ass.
 
2013-02-01 06:33:29 PM

WTF Indeed: fusillade762: Boy scouting is a religion.

No it's not. Don't be an ass.


Being an ass is a religion.
 
2013-02-01 06:33:46 PM

StrandedInAZ: They've already announced on the news here that most of the councils in Arizona will not be changing their stance on allowing gays.

/I know - big surprise


Ah mormons.

Also, what about the Irish?
 
2013-02-01 06:33:50 PM
What about the Irish?
 
2013-02-01 06:34:39 PM

fusillade762: Boy scouting is a religion.


Don't be silly.  AA is a religion.  Amway is a religion.  Freemasonry is a religion.

The Boy Scouts are a cult.  Like $cientology.
 
2013-02-01 06:35:18 PM

Bermuda59: What about the Irish?


We let them in back in the 30's. it's been downhill ever since.
 
2013-02-01 06:35:42 PM
Meh, I was in Boy Scouts and athiest. Big deal.
 
2013-02-01 06:36:13 PM
"The Boy Scouts of America maintains that no member can grow into the best kind of citizen without recognizing an obligation to God "

Riiiiiight.
 
2013-02-01 06:36:37 PM
I see what you did there... +1 to you, Subby.
 
2013-02-01 06:36:41 PM

FloydA: Being an ass is a religion.


Tapping ass is my religion.

/fundamentalist fanatic
 
2013-02-01 06:37:16 PM
its a step in the right direction.
 
2013-02-01 06:37:27 PM
I can't believe they are letting gays in before atheists. Both are actually against what's the bible, but the bible actually singles homosexuality out by being specifically bad pointing out it's a perversion by illustrating Sodom and Gomorrah.
 
2013-02-01 06:37:45 PM
I was a boyscout as a teen - even made eagle scout. I am and always have been an atheist. the troop I was with was, at least at the time, very secular. I remember god being part of the scout oath - but I always thought of it as god is also mentioned in the pledge of allegiance. I always omitted that part while in school and in scouts. figured it was optional. actually, I didn't even realize the boy scouts were considered "christian" until very late during my time there, which was right around when the whole no gays thing began....late 90's I believe. just was never a big part of what was discussed during meetings or on camping trips. the scouts were a good experience and even though I plan on raising my kids as atheists as well, I won't hesitate to let them sign up for boy/cub scouts.
 
2013-02-01 06:38:23 PM

ShawnDoc: Guess you'll never get to join the Masons then.


I have a Second Hand Apron!


I nearly got in at Hendon.
 
2013-02-01 06:39:21 PM

WTF Indeed: fusillade762: Boy scouting is a religion.

No it's not. Don't be an ass.


I'm just preempting a certain Frenchman who's no doubt on his way.
 
2013-02-01 06:39:26 PM
i.imgur.com
 
2013-02-01 06:39:35 PM

MaudlinMutantMollusk: Reverent


rev·er·ent
/ˈrev(ə)rənt/

Adjective
Feeling or showing deep and solemn respect: "a reverent silence".

Synonyms
respectful - deferential - reverential

I can get behind reverent as described here.
 
2013-02-01 06:40:01 PM
Alright, but no Irish
 
2013-02-01 06:40:25 PM

MaudlinMutantMollusk: A Scout is:

Trustworthy,Loyal,Helpful,Friendly,Courteous,Kind,Obedient,Cheerful, Thrifty,Brave,Clean,and Reverent. I never could get more than 11 out of 12


As a 12 year old boy I am sure most of that list gets tossed out except maybe the gay kids have better hygiene
 
2013-02-01 06:40:45 PM
In the American social order, the only thing lower than atheists are pedophiles.
www.theblaze.com
 
2013-02-01 06:41:33 PM

xen0blue: I can't believe they are letting gays in before atheists. Both are actually against what's the bible, but the bible actually singles homosexuality out by being specifically bad pointing out it's a perversion by illustrating Sodom and Gomorrah.


It's easier to tell when someone is gay, they like the tight shorts and always watch the butts of other scouts on hikes. Athiest, you pretty much have to wave a flaming bible over your head while peeing on a cross for people to notice.
 
2013-02-01 06:42:05 PM
From last summer, but worth a revisit........

Chaz The Intolerant Chick-fil-A Chicken (youtube)

Eat up you godless sodomites!
 
2013-02-01 06:42:12 PM

ShawnDoc: Guess you'll never get to join the Masons then.


And that's always chapped my ass.  "How can you trust the word/character of someone who doesn't believe in God?"  (paraphrasing there) I'm actually friends with a handful of Masons, and the shiat they pull off and lie straight faced about is pathetic.
 
2013-02-01 06:42:29 PM

ShawnDoc: Ennuipoet: Any organization that needs me to profess belief in a higher power, whether it be scouts or Alcoholic Anonymous. is not something I want to be a part of any way.


Unless, they offer steep discounts at local bars, then I would be willing to lie about my disbelief, for a couple of rounds.

Guess you'll never get to join the Masons then.


I know I was bit on edge just now, but if I got in I would sit in the back and not bother anyone.
 
2013-02-01 06:42:55 PM

"The Boy Scouts of America maintains that no member can grow into the best kind of citizen without recognizing an obligation to God ... The recognition of God as the ruling and leading power in the universe and the grateful acknowledgment of His favors and blessings are necessary to the best type of citizenship and are wholesome precepts in the education of the growing members."

Now who can argue with that? I think we're all indebted to Scoutmaster Gabby Johnson for clearly stating what needed to be said. I'm particularly glad that you lovely Farkers were here today to read that quote. Not only was it authentic frontier gibberish, it expressed a courage little seen in this day and age.

img803.imageshack.us


/"All right... we'll give some Boy Scout Leader positions to the fairies and the chinks. But we don't want the Irish! "
 
2013-02-01 06:43:01 PM
I was a Cub Scout, and the pushing of the religious agenda was one of the reasons I never got past Webelos.

My parents had nothing to do with it. They'd both been brought up in strict, religious homes, and had decided not to discuss religion with my sister and I as we grew up unless we brought it up, then they would be encyclopedic in their responses. We were free to go to church and church-related activities with our friends, or not to. They just didn't push any of it on us.

Oddly, both my sister and I grew up to be atheists (not agnostics). Funny how it works if you don't indoctrinate kids into your religion at an early age.

Anyway, I was always unhappy with the religious subtext in scouts, so I just stopped going. Not really sure why an atheist would want to be in the Scouts.
 
2013-02-01 06:43:53 PM
Does that mean they still will admit Cthulhu worshipers?

southparkstudios.mtvnimages.com
 
2013-02-01 06:44:30 PM

xen0blue: I can't believe they are letting gays in before atheists. Both are actually against what's the bible, but the bible actually singles homosexuality out by being specifically bad pointing out it's a perversion by illustrating Sodom and Gomorrah.


Sodom and Gonnarhea was not gay. It was full of fat lazy rich republican f*cks who brought about their own destruction due to being rich non-caring f*cks who didn't care about poor people.

/Oh but being full of republicans, I guess it was gay after all.
 
2013-02-01 06:44:45 PM

xen0blue: I can't believe they are letting gays in before atheists. Both are actually against what's the bible, but the bible actually singles homosexuality out by being specifically bad pointing out it's a perversion by illustrating Sodom and Gomorrah.


Sodom and Gomorrah was because they did not show hospitality to guests - the form of that inhospitality is secondary or tertiary to the issue.  In the same way, we generally do not say your crime was carpentry when you nail someone's head to a wall
 
2013-02-01 06:44:57 PM
I think I'll pass when they start selling Boy Scout Cookies.
 
2013-02-01 06:44:58 PM
Silly Willies! Most Heathens are polytheistic! I got more gods than you do, scouts, nya nya nyaaaaa!

/Our gods are cooler, too! Cuz Odin and stuff.
 
2013-02-01 06:45:12 PM
I was a Boy Scout for most of my adolescence. Eventually made to Life Scout (one rank below Eagle).

A couple years ago I went to volunteer to assist,as a way to give back to an organization that gave me so much. I used to love all the camping we did and things we learned. Plus, out of everyone I still know from my youth, almost all of them are my fellow Scouts. Well, I'm not sure why it didn't dawn on me, but I forgot that they don't allow atheists to join (which I became later in life). It was a sad phone to get from the local Scout Master, especially when the night before I got out all my old Scout stuff to look at.


/Life Scout
//Order of the Arrow
///Woodsmen
////Multiple merit badges and patches for extreme weather and terrain camping

i234.photobucket.com
 
2013-02-01 06:45:59 PM

Nadie_AZ: StrandedInAZ: They've already announced on the news here that most of the councils in Arizona will not be changing their stance on allowing gays.

/I know - big surprise

Ah mormons.

Also, what about the Irish?


NO Irish!

/know I am way late, but man that line always cracked me up.
 
2013-02-01 06:46:24 PM

xen0blue: I can't believe they are letting gays in before atheists. Both are actually against what's the bible, but the bible actually singles homosexuality out by being specifically bad pointing out it's a perversion by illustrating Sodom and Gomorrah.


Oh yeah, I'm sure that the bible omitted atheism because denying God was no big deal.
 
2013-02-01 06:46:27 PM

KangTheMad: Meh, I was in Boy Scouts and athiest. Big deal.


I know a few that were... even when they were on their way to getting their Eagle Scout badges.

The national organization has far less power over the individual councils and troops than the media would lead someone to believe.
 
2013-02-01 06:46:35 PM

Lumber Jack Off: I was a boyscout as a teen - even made eagle scout. I am and always have been an atheist. the troop I was with was, at least at the time, very secular. I remember god being part of the scout oath - but I always thought of it as god is also mentioned in the pledge of allegiance. I always omitted that part while in school and in scouts. figured it was optional. actually, I didn't even realize the boy scouts were considered "christian" until very late during my time there, which was right around when the whole no gays thing began....late 90's I believe. just was never a big part of what was discussed during meetings or on camping trips. the scouts were a good experience and even though I plan on raising my kids as atheists as well, I won't hesitate to let them sign up for boy/cub scouts.


You said everything I came here to say.  Perfect summary of my experience and feelings toward the scouts and religion.
 
2013-02-01 06:47:08 PM
I got numerous merit badges in religous hypocrisy.
 
2013-02-01 06:48:00 PM
You know, if the Boy Scout leadership is such a bunch of assholes (and they appear to be), just form your own farking scouting organization. How hard can it be?

It can't be too hard to come up with cooler uniforms, at least.

My suggestion would be camo and maybe berets, kind like the French Foreign Legion.  Except, you know, not foreign.

But in case you're feeling like you need some excitement, the FFL is recruiting:

http://www.legion-recrute.com/en/
 
2013-02-01 06:48:41 PM

kim jong-un: xen0blue: I can't believe they are letting gays in before atheists. Both are actually against what's the bible, but the bible actually singles homosexuality out by being specifically bad pointing out it's a perversion by illustrating Sodom and Gomorrah.

Oh yeah, I'm sure that the bible omitted atheism because denying God was no big deal.


FWIW, some more liberal Jews don't consider atheism to be a disqualification for being Jewish.
 
2013-02-01 06:49:20 PM

kim jong-un: xen0blue: I can't believe they are letting gays in before atheists. Both are actually against what's the bible, but the bible actually singles homosexuality out by being specifically bad pointing out it's a perversion by illustrating Sodom and Gomorrah.

Oh yeah, I'm sure that the bible omitted atheism because denying God was no big deal.


Actually, the Bible allows toleration for other faiths - however sinful behavior (they would stick homosexuality here) was always punished.
 
2013-02-01 06:49:30 PM
I was a cub scout, a webelo and a boy scout. None for any extended period of time, just kept trying again every few years. Other than oaths I can't recall anything remotely religious. It was more of a patriotic child army, preparing for everything.

/skillz, biatches
 
2013-02-01 06:50:02 PM

xen0blue: I can't believe they are letting gays in before atheists. Both are actually against what's the bible, but the bible actually singles homosexuality out by being specifically bad pointing out it's a perversion by illustrating Sodom and Gomorrah.


to be precise, Sodom and Gomorrah wasn't specifically about homosexuality but wickedness in general and being rude to guests in specific.   If you read the story,Lot tried to placate the crowd by offering to let them bone the shiat out of his daughters but they refused.

Still not about rape, and, yeah, Lot's a bit of a chode here too,
 
2013-02-01 06:53:02 PM

Ennuipoet: Any organization that needs me to profess belief in a higher power, whether it be scouts or Alcoholic Anonymous. is not something I want to be a part of any way.


Unless, they offer steep discounts at local bars, then I would be willing to lie about my disbelief, for a couple of rounds.


When I was young I was inthe Boy Scouts, and an athiest. I just lied about it, because I liked scouting. You learn all sorts of valuable skills, go camping a bunch, make a lot of friends and your parents get something which keeps you out of their hair once in a while.

They did bring up the god thing a lot in my troop, but it was generally kind of an "And we all believe in god right? OK, Good," thing. So I'd just nod in agreement because what was the non-existent diety going to do to me for lying about it? Honestly, it probably contributed to my attitude towards scouting quite a bit though, which was that I wanted to learn their knowledge but was utterly dinsinterested in the badges and ranks. I'd attend a class the whole way through, learn whatever it was they were teaching and then when it was time for the badge test I'd just leave or not show up.

If they hadn't pushed the god thing I probably would have insisted on staying in the scouts longer and been more interested in becoming an Eagle Scout. But my time in the scouts was great, and I'd encourage my kid to just do the same thing I did. Join, and just lie about his feelings about god and nothing else.

Glad they're taking gays now... too bad about athiests, but let's not let the enemy of the good be the perfect. This is still a positive step forward for them, and I'm glad they took it.
 
2013-02-01 06:53:26 PM

Marine1: kim jong-un: xen0blue: I can't believe they are letting gays in before atheists. Both are actually against what's the bible, but the bible actually singles homosexuality out by being specifically bad pointing out it's a perversion by illustrating Sodom and Gomorrah.

Oh yeah, I'm sure that the bible omitted atheism because denying God was no big deal.

FWIW, some more liberal Jews don't consider atheism to be a disqualification for being Jewish.


Partly because for some it is ethnic as well as religious. I always prickled at the idea that some looked down on non Semitic Jews.
 
2013-02-01 06:54:27 PM

Lionel Mandrake: fusillade762: Boy scouting is a religion.

Don't be silly.  AA is a religion.  Amway is a religion.  Freemasonry is a religion.

The Boy Scouts are a cult.  Like $cientology.


You have to get a little further in for the cult stuff. 1st class at least and voted in by your fellow scouts.

\Actually, the OA is the BSA's take on a secret society.
\\Lotsa fun.
 
2013-02-01 06:55:45 PM

MaudlinMutantMollusk: A Scout is:

Trustworthy,Loyal,Helpful,Friendly,Courteous,Kind,Obedient,Cheerful, Thrifty,Brave,Clean,and Reverent. I never could get more than 11 out of 12


I always said all 12.  I never said what I was reverent towards though.
 
2013-02-01 06:55:48 PM
When I went to the sign up meeting for my kid, I never even got to the atheist and gay part. What turned me off was the money-grubbing. That goddamn popcorn. It was run like a business and I heard very little about what the boys would be doing. Felt like a timeshare pitch.
 
2013-02-01 06:55:59 PM
When I was a scout we had a retired army sergeant as our troop leader and we skipped the religious stuff, also we where in the ghetto part of town so we also skipped uniforms, he got the local national guard to donate equipment for camp outs and we all had a camo field jacket as our uniform. Yes the other scouts did fear us
 
2013-02-01 06:56:00 PM

Lumber Jack Off: I was a boyscout as a teen - even made eagle scout. I am and always have been an atheist. the troop I was with was, at least at the time, very secular. I remember god being part of the scout oath - but I always thought of it as god is also mentioned in the pledge of allegiance. I always omitted that part while in school and in scouts. figured it was optional. actually, I didn't even realize the boy scouts were considered "christian" until very late during my time there, which was right around when the whole no gays thing began....late 90's I believe. just was never a big part of what was discussed during meetings or on camping trips. the scouts were a good experience and even though I plan on raising my kids as atheists as well, I won't hesitate to let them sign up for boy/cub scouts.


It's changed.

Many troops may as well be Mormon recruitment camps.
 
2013-02-01 06:57:14 PM
Do gays even like carving race cars out of blocks of wood?
 
2013-02-01 06:57:35 PM

Ennuipoet: Any organization that needs me to profess belief in a higher power, whether it be scouts or Alcoholic Anonymous. is not something I want to be a part of any way.


Unless, they offer steep discounts at local bars, then I would be willing to lie about my disbelief, for a couple of rounds.


Well you seem like a trustworthy person... I certianly would hire you
 
2013-02-01 06:58:34 PM
I went up through Eagle and I'm an atheist. The religious element isn't too bad, and you just have to lie a little to finish. I loved all the camping and outdoors trips we did.

/many of us were atheist.
//probably why our troop had no problems
 
2013-02-01 06:59:10 PM

The All-Powerful Atheismo: MaudlinMutantMollusk: A Scout is:

Trustworthy,Loyal,Helpful,Friendly,Courteous,Kind,Obedient,Cheerful, Thrifty,Brave,Clean,and Reverent. I never could get more than 11 out of 12

I always said all 12.  I never said what I was reverent towards though.


I always said all 12 as well

/but even before I concluded I was an atheist, I knew the last thing I was was reverent
//about anything
///Congenital CSD*

*Compulsive Smartass Disorder
 
2013-02-01 06:59:12 PM

kim jong-un: Marine1: kim jong-un: xen0blue: I can't believe they are letting gays in before atheists. Both are actually against what's the bible, but the bible actually singles homosexuality out by being specifically bad pointing out it's a perversion by illustrating Sodom and Gomorrah.

Oh yeah, I'm sure that the bible omitted atheism because denying God was no big deal.

FWIW, some more liberal Jews don't consider atheism to be a disqualification for being Jewish.

Partly because for some it is ethnic as well as religious. I always prickled at the idea that some looked down on non Semitic Jews.


No kidding. The girlfriend is of the tribe (at least religiously) and converted as a teenager from Catholicism. I got to talking with a Jewish girl I went to high school with (who is full-blooded and going to Yeshiva U right now) and she upright told me that my girlfriend isn't Jewish.

I mean, other than the going to shabbat services every week (she's there now), being the president of the Jewish sorority at my university, wearing a Star of David necklace daily, going on a Birthright trip, and once telling me Jesus was a lie in an argument early on in our relationship... she's not Jewish at all.

With all due respect, the gene pool really isn't big enough at this point to be that picky about who you let be a Jew.
 
2013-02-01 06:59:47 PM
 
2013-02-01 07:03:48 PM
I was a member of two local troops, and neither of them beat us over the head with the bible.  I imagine that is probably not the case in the south/midwest.

/Eagle scout
//Ended up on FARK nevertheless.
 
2013-02-01 07:05:24 PM
It's hard to be more culturally outdated and regressive than the US military, but the scouts manage to pull it off.
 
2013-02-01 07:05:27 PM
 
2013-02-01 07:05:53 PM
I was a scout as a kid.  The troop was sponsored by a Lutheran church but I was raised Catholic.  No one cared about religion or if you were gay.  But visiting the Catholic church I was raised in for my nephews confirmation I was shocked by how negative the members of the church were to anyone who believes something differently then they do.

/and when the priest asked me when I would get married - I kindly informed him that I would have my boyfriend drive up and we can do the ceremony right now.
//when he not so politely declined I told him to go fark off
///it was a frustrating day
 
2013-02-01 07:07:28 PM
When I was a scout, my troop just didn't care about any kind of discrimination.  We had atheists, gays, and people from all walks of life in our ranks (this was the early 90s).  Many troops still don't - part of the problem is that extremely conservative members of a particular religious group basically seized control of the highest-ranking decision-making central bureaucracy, and handed these sorts of "commandments" down from that high place.

The Boy Scouts - when you strip away that bigotry - is a good organization, promoting good values.  Ask anyone who's actually gone all the way to Eagle (or beyond - yay palms!); they'll tell you that the discrimination and such is entirely meaningless in comparison to the humility and sense of responsibility that it instills in you.

Unfortunately, it seems that the core, decision-making part of the organization is rotten.  It saddens me to think that it may not be salvageable, but I really don't see any way to do it, other than to wait for the bigots to die out (which is likely to take several more generations).

/ Eagle Scout.
// OA initiate, and yes, OA is a cult.
 
2013-02-01 07:08:44 PM
Just another group of individuals who just want to move on in and hijack someone elses group due to being to lazy and incompetent to create a group of there own.
 
2013-02-01 07:09:31 PM

sheep snorter: xen0blue: I can't believe they are letting gays in before atheists. Both are actually against what's the bible, but the bible actually singles homosexuality out by being specifically bad pointing out it's a perversion by illustrating Sodom and Gomorrah.

Sodom and Gonnarhea was not gay. It was full of fat lazy rich republican f*cks who brought about their own destruction due to being rich non-caring f*cks who didn't care about poor people.

/Oh but being full of republicans, I guess it was gay after all.


Also there was no gayness involved in the story, because trying to rape an angel (who are sexless, or at least not referred to using gendered pronouns) is  weird to map to homosexuality - firstly they aren't the same species, secondly the gender of the angel is uncertain, and then there is the rape aspect which might be considered more critical to the entire reason it is mentioned in the first place, especially when added to the whole inhospitable to strangers and the poor.

/of course if Sodom and Gomorrah is largely about being mean to poor people, you can see why Republicans want to recast it as something else given their insistence that denying aid to poor people is something to brag about and campaign for
 
2013-02-01 07:10:12 PM

cptjeff: You have to get a little further in for the cult stuff. 1st class at least and voted in by your fellow scouts.

\Actually, the OA is the BSA's take on a secret society.
\\Lotsa fun.


Shhhh!  Remember if anyone asks, WWW stands for "Wine, Whiskey & Women".
 
2013-02-01 07:11:08 PM

neppyman: When I was a scout, my troop just didn't care about any kind of discrimination.  We had atheists, gays, and people from all walks of life in our ranks (this was the early 90s).  Many troops still don't - part of the problem is that extremely conservative members of a particular religious group basically seized control of the highest-ranking decision-making central bureaucracy, and handed these sorts of "commandments" down from that high place.

The Boy Scouts - when you strip away that bigotry - is a good organization, promoting good values.  Ask anyone who's actually gone all the way to Eagle (or beyond - yay palms!); they'll tell you that the discrimination and such is entirely meaningless in comparison to the humility and sense of responsibility that it instills in you.

Unfortunately, it seems that the core, decision-making part of the organization is rotten.  It saddens me to think that it may not be salvageable, but I really don't see any way to do it, other than to wait for the bigots to die out (which is likely to take several more generations).

/ Eagle Scout.
// OA initiate, and yes, OA is a cult.


We tried to get the initiates in our troop to talk during their period of silence. It didn't work.
 
2013-02-01 07:12:14 PM
All I remember about OA was the shelterless sleep-out.

Yes, it rained.
 
2013-02-01 07:12:22 PM

TheRealist II: Just another group of individuals who just want to move on in and hijack someone elses group due to being to lazy and incompetent to create a group of there own.


Maybe the gay-basher part of the scouts could distinguish themselves by wearing a different uniform:

i50.tinypic.com
 
2013-02-01 07:12:37 PM
the Boy decided he wanted to join Cub Scouts.  we had a little talk about religion and how the BSA didn't appreciate atheism.  so when it got to the sign-off from the religious leader and saying the prayer every day, i signed it (hey, i was ordained by the Universal Life Church).  for the prayer, he memorized the chorus to Rush's "Free Will" and recited it for 30 days, just like he was supposed to.  i was asked to be an officer in the group of dens (forgot the name and title), in which i served honorably like a good Dad.  after a while the Boy said he was tired of lying about religion.  he quit Scouting, but was a member of the Civil Air Patrol for several years.
 
2013-02-01 07:12:50 PM
i1172.photobucket.com
i was a boy scout and an atheist. from my experience, religion isnt a big part of the boyscouts. in fact i have never considered it be a religious organization and i dont recall any religious tone. i dont know where this article is coming from. i also dont understand all the recent hate for it. its a great organization and should be able to do what it feels is best for the development of young men that wish to participate.
 
2013-02-01 07:13:01 PM

Marine1: kim jong-un: Marine1: kim jong-un: xen0blue: I can't believe they are letting gays in before atheists. Both are actually against what's the bible, but the bible actually singles homosexuality out by being specifically bad pointing out it's a perversion by illustrating Sodom and Gomorrah.

Oh yeah, I'm sure that the bible omitted atheism because denying God was no big deal.

FWIW, some more liberal Jews don't consider atheism to be a disqualification for being Jewish.

Partly because for some it is ethnic as well as religious. I always prickled at the idea that some looked down on non Semitic Jews.

No kidding. The girlfriend is of the tribe (at least religiously) and converted as a teenager from Catholicism. I got to talking with a Jewish girl I went to high school with (who is full-blooded and going to Yeshiva U right now) and she upright told me that my girlfriend isn't Jewish.

I mean, other than the going to shabbat services every week (she's there now), being the president of the Jewish sorority at my university, wearing a Star of David necklace daily, going on a Birthright trip, and once telling me Jesus was a lie in an argument early on in our relationship... she's not Jewish at all.

With all due respect, the gene pool really isn't big enough at this point to be that picky about who you let be a Jew.


Heh, imagine my reaction at being told the same, except that my dad IS ethnically Jewish, but my mom isn't. Matrilineal line broken. Not really Jewish. (Assuming I did attend/study/etc)
 
2013-02-01 07:15:03 PM

Rush Mountmore: I went up through Eagle and I'm an atheist. The religious element isn't too bad, and you just have to lie a little to finish. I loved all the camping and outdoors trips we did.

/many of us were atheist.
//probably why our troop had no problems


My troop met in a church, and until one new assistant scoutmaster came in a few years before I got my eagle, the only mention of religion I ever heard was people getting the knot if they wanted to. There was one meeting where he went off about gays, and as the most senior scout at the meeting, I wound up taking him down a few pegs, though there were certainly a few uncomfortable people there. And no, it wasn't the kind of screaming you're probably imagining. It was just a calm, pointed, and logical cross examination. But it made the point quite well.

His son was probably one of the more uncomfortable people there- he was a closet liberal. I knew, but I'm pretty sure his dad didn't.

LDM90: When I went to the sign up meeting for my kid, I never even got to the atheist and gay part. What turned me off was the money-grubbing. That goddamn popcorn. It was run like a business and I heard very little about what the boys would be doing. Felt like a timeshare pitch.


Wait, there are troops that took the popcorn seriously? Ours always regarded it as a pathetic attempt to mime the girl scouts' fundraising model with a vastly inferior product that we had to participate in because the council required it.
 
2013-02-01 07:16:16 PM
Baby steps.
 
2013-02-01 07:16:30 PM

GF named my left testicle thundercles: [i1172.photobucket.com image 500x642]
i was a boy scout and an atheist. from my experience, religion isnt a big part of the boyscouts. in fact i have never considered it be a religious organization and i dont recall any religious tone. i dont know where this article is coming from. i also dont understand all the recent hate for it. its a great organization and should be able to do what it feels is best for the development of young men that wish to participate.


The nut-wing religious folk got their paws on the decision-making seats and have been pushing for known homosexuals to be kicked out. This led to a den mother being kicked out for being lesbian, and the internet sorta went off like a bomb.
 
2013-02-01 07:17:22 PM
when i was in the scouts, i never heard of this "stay away gay" crap, even when my parents were scout leaders

/then again, I'm Canadian, so maybe the Canuck branch didn't get the case of the 'Murrican
//best camping and fishing trips i remember as a kid
 
2013-02-01 07:18:11 PM

StrandedInAZ: They've already announced on the news here that most of the councils in Arizona will not be changing their stance on allowing gays.

/I know - big surprise


WHAT?!?!?! Hatred for teh gays in Arizona? You don't say!
 
2013-02-01 07:18:16 PM

neppyman: When I was a scout, my troop just didn't care about any kind of discrimination.  We had atheists, gays, and people from all walks of life in our ranks (this was the early 90s).  Many troops still don't - part of the problem is that extremely conservative members of a particular religious group basically seized control of the highest-ranking decision-making central bureaucracy, and handed these sorts of "commandments" down from that high place.

The Boy Scouts - when you strip away that bigotry - is a good organization, promoting good values.  Ask anyone who's actually gone all the way to Eagle (or beyond - yay palms!); they'll tell you that the discrimination and such is entirely meaningless in comparison to the humility and sense of responsibility that it instills in you.

Unfortunately, it seems that the core, decision-making part of the organization is rotten.  It saddens me to think that it may not be salvageable, but I really don't see any way to do it, other than to wait for the bigots to die out (which is likely to take several more generations).

/ Eagle Scout.
// OA initiate, and yes, OA is a cult.


I see this "OA is a cult" thing every now and then, and I don't get it.   I am and Eagle Scout, and I was in OA.  I remember the silent thing and the no shelter thing, but that's all.  I don't recall every doing anything OA other than the initiation.   Did I miss out on the cult gang bangs or something?
 
2013-02-01 07:18:38 PM

cptjeff: Rush Mountmore: I went up through Eagle and I'm an atheist. The religious element isn't too bad, and you just have to lie a little to finish. I loved all the camping and outdoors trips we did.

/many of us were atheist.
//probably why our troop had no problems

My troop met in a church, and until one new assistant scoutmaster came in a few years before I got my eagle, the only mention of religion I ever heard was people getting the knot if they wanted to. There was one meeting where he went off about gays, and as the most senior scout at the meeting, I wound up taking him down a few pegs, though there were certainly a few uncomfortable people there. And no, it wasn't the kind of screaming you're probably imagining. It was just a calm, pointed, and logical cross examination. But it made the point quite well.

His son was probably one of the more uncomfortable people there- he was a closet liberal. I knew, but I'm pretty sure his dad didn't.

LDM90: When I went to the sign up meeting for my kid, I never even got to the atheist and gay part. What turned me off was the money-grubbing. That goddamn popcorn. It was run like a business and I heard very little about what the boys would be doing. Felt like a timeshare pitch.

Wait, there are troops that took the popcorn seriously? Ours always regarded it as a pathetic attempt to mime the girl scouts' fundraising model with a vastly inferior product that we had to participate in because the council required it.


Hey, don't knock the popcorn, it wasn't too bad. Helped pay for our troop's Ma-ka-ja-wan trips and stuff.
 
2013-02-01 07:19:27 PM

sheep snorter: [i.imgur.com image 488x488]


THIS X 1,000,000,000!
 
2013-02-01 07:19:48 PM
neppyman:
/ Eagle Scout.
// OA initiate, and yes, OA is a cult.


Could someone explain the Order of the Arrow bullshiat? When I was in scouts they required a nomination each year, and I was the only one in our small group who was of age to do it. They all told me I would be nominated and I told them I wouldn't do it, no matter what. The only reason I could give was that someone told me I had to go into the woods all day and night with no food and set up shelter and in Washington State that meant 40 degree or less and pouring rain. No thanks.

So the camping trip came, and they have this big whole stupid ceremony you  have to do. You stand in a big circle with the initiates all over the state and a Native American guy in the center talks about it. They give each of you an arrow, and then there is a portion where they say something like "If you do not wish to tread this path, lay down your arrows and none shall be judged." threw the arrow down and left.

Unfortunately, they didn't count on anyone doing that. Because no one had done that in twenty YEARS of the order of the arrow happening. I was able to leave, but because of how "secret" it was I ended up getting blocked by two Order of the Arrow posts outside the ceremony to keep anyone from entering. One was this dickhole scoutmaster who COULD NOT BELIEVE I declined such an honor. On my personal escort back to camp, I was told what a failure I was, how no one had ever declined, what a disgrace to scouting I was, etc etc.

My scoutmaster and leaders were totally cool, and after the trip that dude had serious issues. But what the fark? Why is order of the arrow such a big screaming deal? What did I thankfully miss out on?
 
2013-02-01 07:19:49 PM

GoldSpider: All I remember about OA was the shelterless sleep-out.

Yes, it rained.


Wimp. That's what the groundsheet is for.

We got parked on a hill. I woke up about 30 feet from where I went to bed.
 
2013-02-01 07:20:56 PM

pudding7: neppyman: When I was a scout, my troop just didn't care about any kind of discrimination.  We had atheists, gays, and people from all walks of life in our ranks (this was the early 90s).  Many troops still don't - part of the problem is that extremely conservative members of a particular religious group basically seized control of the highest-ranking decision-making central bureaucracy, and handed these sorts of "commandments" down from that high place.

The Boy Scouts - when you strip away that bigotry - is a good organization, promoting good values.  Ask anyone who's actually gone all the way to Eagle (or beyond - yay palms!); they'll tell you that the discrimination and such is entirely meaningless in comparison to the humility and sense of responsibility that it instills in you.

Unfortunately, it seems that the core, decision-making part of the organization is rotten.  It saddens me to think that it may not be salvageable, but I really don't see any way to do it, other than to wait for the bigots to die out (which is likely to take several more generations).

/ Eagle Scout.
// OA initiate, and yes, OA is a cult.

I see this "OA is a cult" thing every now and then, and I don't get it.   I am and Eagle Scout, and I was in OA.  I remember the silent thing and the no shelter thing, but that's all.  I don't recall every doing anything OA other than the initiation.   Did I miss out on the cult gang bangs or something?


There were meetings you were supposed to go to. One of our camp counselors was an OA officer and lectured our merit badge class that if one of us accepted the OA, they had better attend those meetings.
 
2013-02-01 07:21:14 PM
Anyone else here go to Ransburg? That was my favorite place to go in Indiana.

Also, glad to see more OotA folks:
i234.photobucket.com
 
2013-02-01 07:22:05 PM

GoldSpider: All I remember about OA was the shelterless sleep-out.

Yes, it rained.


I got lucky. Ours was when it was over 100 degrees that day and sunny so it was a clear and comfortable night.

I fell asleep as soon as I laid down.. A lot of walking that night.
 
2013-02-01 07:22:42 PM
LDM90: When I went to the sign up meeting for my kid, I never even got to the atheist and gay part. What turned me off was the money-grubbing. That goddamn popcorn. It was run like a business and I heard very little about what the boys would be doing. Felt like a timeshare pitch.

Wait, there are troops that took the popcorn seriously? Ours always regarded it as a pathetic attempt to mime the girl scouts' fundraising model with a vastly inferior product that we had to participate in because the council required it.


When you don't have a financial backer it's the only way you can get money. I had to sell donuts at a Catholic church every single first sunday of the month just to have money to go camping, and the popcorn was the only way we could do summer camp. For troops that don't have supporters (and this is usually poorer troops.) are forced to do a whole lot more work.
 
2013-02-01 07:23:07 PM
I don't get this whole I wanna join an organization thing but not believe what they believe thing.

I wonder if it works on the IRS?
 
2013-02-01 07:23:14 PM
lostcat:

Oddly, both my sister and I grew up to be atheists (not agnostics). Funny how it works if you don't indoctrinate kids into your religion at an early age.

Or even when you do.  I decided to quit sunday school when I was about 6 years old when I realised the whole concept was preposterous, and have been atheist since.  I believed in Santa longer than I believed in god.
 
2013-02-01 07:24:12 PM
Why would they openly allow pedophiles to join, let alone lead?
 
2013-02-01 07:24:56 PM

Jaws_Victim: neppyman:
/ Eagle Scout.
// OA initiate, and yes, OA is a cult.

Could someone explain the Order of the Arrow bullshiat? When I was in scouts they required a nomination each year, and I was the only one in our small group who was of age to do it. They all told me I would be nominated and I told them I wouldn't do it, no matter what. The only reason I could give was that someone told me I had to go into the woods all day and night with no food and set up shelter and in Washington State that meant 40 degree or less and pouring rain. No thanks.

So the camping trip came, and they have this big whole stupid ceremony you  have to do. You stand in a big circle with the initiates all over the state and a Native American guy in the center talks about it. They give each of you an arrow, and then there is a portion where they say something like "If you do not wish to tread this path, lay down your arrows and none shall be judged." threw the arrow down and left.

Unfortunately, they didn't count on anyone doing that. Because no one had done that in twenty YEARS of the order of the arrow happening. I was able to leave, but because of how "secret" it was I ended up getting blocked by two Order of the Arrow posts outside the ceremony to keep anyone from entering. One was this dickhole scoutmaster who COULD NOT BELIEVE I declined such an honor. On my personal escort back to camp, I was told what a failure I was, how no one had ever declined, what a disgrace to scouting I was, etc etc.

My scoutmaster and leaders were totally cool, and after the trip that dude had serious issues. But what the fark? Why is order of the arrow such a big screaming deal? What did I thankfully miss out on?


The ordeal and ceremonies are just kind of a side item to give it an air of mystery and make it seem like more of a thing than it is. It's really just an excuse to hang out with a bunch of older and more serious scouts and leaders from other troops on a regular basis, which is fun. There aren't any negatives other than the ordeal, which is basically a ritualistic day of mild labor, and you only do it once.

You missed out.
 
2013-02-01 07:25:04 PM
When I was in the scouts they didn't seem to discriminate against anybody. In my troop, we had all kinds of boys. One was a police officer and another an Indian chief. I know we had a cowboy and a biker all in leather. I think there was even a construction worker and a soldier.
 
2013-02-01 07:26:34 PM
Trustworthy, Loyal, Helpful, Friendly, Courteous, Kind, Obedient, Cheerful, Thrifty, Brave, Clean and... Reverent.

I may not like the BSA, but asking them to be non-religious is a bit stupid. It would be like asking a charity to be.. non-charitable.
 
2013-02-01 07:26:43 PM

HellRaisingHoosier: Anyone else here go to Ransburg? That was my favorite place to go in Indiana.

Also, glad to see more OotA folks:
[i234.photobucket.com image 417x124]


I was in Missouri so I never went there, we always went to S-F which is about 90 miles south of St. Louis in the Ozarks.

I actually had a leadership in the OA. I was the district secretary, which basically consisted of me taking notes of the meeting and nothing else.

But when it came time to do the camp outs, all I had to do was sit in District HQ reading magazines and newspapers all day and shooting the breeze with the rest of the OA members in case anyone had any questions.

It was a sweet gig.
 
2013-02-01 07:27:53 PM

El_Frijole_Blanco: MaudlinMutantMollusk: A Scout is:

Trustworthy,Loyal,Helpful,Friendly,Courteous,Kind,Obedient,Cheerful, Thrifty,Brave,Clean,and Reverent. I never could get more than 11 out of 12

As a 12 year old boy I am sure most of that list gets tossed out except maybe the gay kids have better hygiene


The Clean part of it really meant "morally clean" moreso than hygiene.

At least that's what I was told.
 
2013-02-01 07:29:30 PM

KangTheMad: There were meetings you were supposed to go to. One of our camp counselors was an OA officer and lectured our merit badge class that if one of us accepted the OA, they had better attend those meetings.


Wat? Chapter meetings are nowhere near mandatory, and usually sparsely attended. They can often be fun, but most people just bother with the lodge stuff (councilwide) or conclave (section meeting, something like 5-10 lodges). And you don't have to show up to anything at all- once you're in, you're in, and it never goes away.
 
2013-02-01 07:29:36 PM

cptjeff: Jaws_Victim: neppyman:
/ Eagle Scout.
// OA initiate, and yes, OA is a cult.

The ordeal and ceremonies are just kind of a side item to give it an air of mystery and make it seem like more of a thing than it is. It's really just an excuse to hang out with a bunch of older and more serious scouts and leaders from other troops on a regular basis, which is fun. There ...


Sounds stupid. Hated the scouts, was a nerdy kid who liked to read books. Older boys usually just ignored me. Sounds like it would've been another predictably annoying experience when I just wanted to be left alone to read a book.
 
2013-02-01 07:29:42 PM
My scout troop was awesome.  We went backpacking, and rafting, and camping on the Outer Banks, and all sorts of cool stuff.  I don't recall ever talking about religion except maybe a prayer once or twice, and we didn't have to wear the lame uniforms except in meetings, not in public or camping like some do.  We did some community service but it was always kind of fun.

/molestation-free too!
 
2013-02-01 07:31:17 PM
img2.etsystatic.com


There's you answer right there.
 
2013-02-01 07:33:16 PM

KangTheMad: GF named my left testicle thundercles: [i1172.photobucket.com image 500x642]
i was a boy scout and an atheist. from my experience, religion isnt a big part of the boyscouts. in fact i have never considered it be a religious organization and i dont recall any religious tone. i dont know where this article is coming from. i also dont understand all the recent hate for it. its a great organization and should be able to do what it feels is best for the development of young men that wish to participate.

The nut-wing religious folk got their paws on the decision-making seats and have been pushing for known homosexuals to be kicked out. This led to a den mother being kicked out for being lesbian, and the internet sorta went off like a bomb.


women are allowed in the boy scouts? since when? i thought that it was a purely fraternal organization
 
2013-02-01 07:36:18 PM

CruJones: My scout troop was awesome.  We went backpacking, and rafting, and camping on the Outer Banks, and all sorts of cool stuff.  I don't recall ever talking about religion except maybe a prayer once or twice, and we didn't have to wear the lame uniforms except in meetings, not in public or camping like some do.  We did some community service but it was always kind of fun.

/molestation-free too!


Closest I ever came to seeing molestation was seeing the occasional scoutmaster from another troop shirtless at camp. With the physical condition of some of those scoutmasters, that'll scar you for life, but I never heard of it happening, or even whispers of it.

Now, the Catholic Church I grew up going to, on the other hand... Well, one of the priests was moved to a parish across the country, we'll just say that. There were some pretty loud whispers on that one.

\Family left the Church a few years later, but it wasn't related to that.
 
2013-02-01 07:36:27 PM

lawlz: Why would they openly allow pedophiles to join, let alone lead?


zenster.net
 
2013-02-01 07:37:08 PM
All the other Cubmasters get a chuckle and give me a thumbs-up when we have to say the oath.

My proudest moment was when they all vowed to walk away from the org if they were ever asked to turn away someone based on their sexual orientation or religious beliefs.
 
2013-02-01 07:38:00 PM
Came for big gay al, leaving disappointed
 
2013-02-01 07:38:23 PM

ManateeGag: it's a start...


Give it another 20 years or so, and every single person in the country, without exception, will think, believe and act exactly the same. In the name of diversity.
 
2013-02-01 07:38:32 PM
If they imagine that a child's reverence matters at all, well, they're delusional.  I know a lot of catholics who grew out of their beliefs, including myself.  Yet when i was a kid I happily went through the motions. No matter how much you indoctrinate a kid, at some point they can realize that the conversation with god is very one sided.
 
2013-02-01 07:38:34 PM

GF named my left testicle thundercles: KangTheMad: GF named my left testicle thundercles: [i1172.photobucket.com image 500x642]
i was a boy scout and an atheist. from my experience, religion isnt a big part of the boyscouts. in fact i have never considered it be a religious organization and i dont recall any religious tone. i dont know where this article is coming from. i also dont understand all the recent hate for it. its a great organization and should be able to do what it feels is best for the development of young men that wish to participate.

The nut-wing religious folk got their paws on the decision-making seats and have been pushing for known homosexuals to be kicked out. This led to a den mother being kicked out for being lesbian, and the internet sorta went off like a bomb.

women are allowed in the boy scouts? since when? i thought that it was a purely fraternal organization


Women are allowed in as leaders. And den leader is cub scouts, not boy scouts.
 
2013-02-01 07:39:06 PM

cptjeff: Wimp. That's what the groundsheet is for.


What groundsheet?
 
2013-02-01 07:41:48 PM

ShawnDoc: Guess you'll never get to join the Masons then.


The Masons require belief in a supreme being.

upload.wikimedia.org
 
2013-02-01 07:42:34 PM

Jaws_Victim: neppyman:
/ Eagle Scout.
// OA initiate, and yes, OA is a cult.

Could someone explain the Order of the Arrow bullshiat? When I was in scouts they required a nomination each year, and I was the only one in our small group who was of age to do it. They all told me I would be nominated and I told them I wouldn't do it, no matter what. The only reason I could give was that someone told me I had to go into the woods all day and night with no food and set up shelter and in Washington State that meant 40 degree or less and pouring rain. No thanks.

So the camping trip came, and they have this big whole stupid ceremony you  have to do. You stand in a big circle with the initiates all over the state and a Native American guy in the center talks about it. They give each of you an arrow, and then there is a portion where they say something like "If you do not wish to tread this path, lay down your arrows and none shall be judged." threw the arrow down and left.

Unfortunately, they didn't count on anyone doing that. Because no one had done that in twenty YEARS of the order of the arrow happening. I was able to leave, but because of how "secret" it was I ended up getting blocked by two Order of the Arrow posts outside the ceremony to keep anyone from entering. One was this dickhole scoutmaster who COULD NOT BELIEVE I declined such an honor. On my personal escort back to camp, I was told what a failure I was, how no one had ever declined, what a disgrace to scouting I was, etc etc.

My scoutmaster and leaders were totally cool, and after the trip that dude had serious issues. But what the fark? Why is order of the arrow such a big screaming deal? What did I thankfully miss out on?


I interpreted OA to be overeaters anonymous. Hardy har.
 
2013-02-01 07:42:45 PM
Eagle Scout.  Had a good experience with scouts.  Lots of camping, hiking, rafting.

There is one thing though... they're not getting a penny from me until they stop discriminating against gays/atheists.
 
2013-02-01 07:43:21 PM

cptjeff: Wait, there are troops that took the popcorn seriously?


Wayyyy back when I was in(Life, no OA) we sold fertilizer and lawn bags, paid for our summer backpacking trips in CO,MO,NM, ect.

Now one kid just bridged from weebelo to scouts, and my wife is our youngest's den mother.

I'm atheist, she's pagan, we do not bring it up.
 
2013-02-01 07:44:14 PM

DrPainMD: ManateeGag: it's a start...

Give it another 20 years or so, and every single person in the country, without exception, will think, believe and act exactly the same. In the name of diversity.


What are you griping about now?
 
2013-02-01 07:46:16 PM
Fark the Boy Scouts. It's a worthless organization. Does *anybody* who joins the Boy Scouts get anything out of it? It's a weird little club where you do weird little activities. I've never understood it. Nobody I know understands the appeal.
 
2013-02-01 07:46:50 PM

cptjeff: GF named my left testicle thundercles: KangTheMad: GF named my left testicle thundercles: [i1172.photobucket.com image 500x642]
i was a boy scout and an atheist. from my experience, religion isnt a big part of the boyscouts. in fact i have never considered it be a religious organization and i dont recall any religious tone. i dont know where this article is coming from. i also dont understand all the recent hate for it. its a great organization and should be able to do what it feels is best for the development of young men that wish to participate.

The nut-wing religious folk got their paws on the decision-making seats and have been pushing for known homosexuals to be kicked out. This led to a den mother being kicked out for being lesbian, and the internet sorta went off like a bomb.

women are allowed in the boy scouts? since when? i thought that it was a purely fraternal organization

Women are allowed in as leaders. And den leader is cub scouts, not boy scouts.


If they fight hard enough they can get into regular Boy Scouts too. One of my old friend's insane sister threatened to sue if they didn't allow her to join (thank god it wasn't our troop). She was also in OA. She's one of those who believes that women can AND MUST do everything better (not equal, but better) than a man. The belief was shattered when her femur was shattered after challenging a 6th degree blackbelt (male of course) in a Karate Tournament because she wanted to prove how tough she was. One hard kick and she was on the mat. Still crazy, but at least she doesn't go around purposely antagonizing people.
 
2013-02-01 07:47:24 PM

GoldSpider: cptjeff: Wimp. That's what the groundsheet is for.

What groundsheet?


We were told to bring a sleeping bag and a groundsheet. I guess they didn't mention that a tarp of some sort might come in handy when you did it?
 
2013-02-01 07:48:17 PM

Lady Indica: "The Boy Scouts of America maintains that no member can grow into the best kind of citizen without recognizing an obligation to God "

Riiiiiight.


That right there is why my son quit just short of finishing his Eagle. The Scouts instilled in him a sense of fairness and doing what's right (his mom and I helped, I hope), and so he used it.
 
2013-02-01 07:48:19 PM

Bermuda59: What about the Irish?


Citation granted:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=boO4RowROiw
 
2013-02-01 07:48:39 PM

Sum Guye: ShawnDoc: Guess you'll never get to join the Masons then.

The Masons require belief in a supreme being.

[upload.wikimedia.org image 800x451]


"Supreme Being" is in accordance to the initiate's interpretation. Your Supreme Being, or Grand Architecht of the Universe, could be physics. Political and religious discussion is forbidden in Lodges.
 
2013-02-01 07:49:32 PM

KangTheMad: Political and religious discussion is forbidden in Lodges.


What's left?
 
2013-02-01 07:51:02 PM

Jaws_Victim: cptjeff: Jaws_Victim: neppyman:
/ Eagle Scout.
// OA initiate, and yes, OA is a cult.

The ordeal and ceremonies are just kind of a side item to give it an air of mystery and make it seem like more of a thing than it is. It's really just an excuse to hang out with a bunch of older and more serious scouts and leaders from other troops on a regular basis, which is fun. There ...

Sounds stupid. Hated the scouts, was a nerdy kid who liked to read books. Older boys usually just ignored me. Sounds like it would've been another predictably annoying experience when I just wanted to be left alone to read a book.


It's not stupid if you don't hate people in general.
 
2013-02-01 07:51:25 PM

realmolo: Does *anybody* who joins the Boy Scouts get anything out of it? It's a weird little club where you do weird little activities. I've never understood it. Nobody I know understands the appeal.


I got a scholarship and a lot of school assistance when I went to college. It also helped me get my first job (interviewer/boss was an Eagle Scout). It does take some hard work and dedication to reach Eagle and most people recognize that.

Now when I went I didn't know about their exclusionary policies. We had a gay kid and a few athiests. Hell most of our leadership were athiests. As long as you did your job they didn't care who or what you believed in. I had a great time. And yes, I'm ashamed now by how their acting, but like ManateeGag said, it's a start....
 
2013-02-01 07:51:52 PM
The name "Boy Scouts" should clue you in that religion is involved.
 
2013-02-01 07:52:03 PM

cptjeff: GoldSpider: All I remember about OA was the shelterless sleep-out.

Yes, it rained.

Wimp. That's what the groundsheet is for.

We got parked on a hill. I woke up about 30 feet from where I went to bed.


snert, you funny.
 
2013-02-01 07:52:39 PM

cptjeff: KangTheMad: Political and religious discussion is forbidden in Lodges.

What's left?


Masons are pretty big on charity, and you need to be philosophical about your interpretation of Masonic principles and codes to advance in rank.

I'm not a mason, so I don't know much beyond that.
 
2013-02-01 07:54:24 PM
I've never understood the whole "higher power" concept. Does gravity count? How about the weak nuclear force?
 
2013-02-01 07:54:58 PM

lostcat: I was a Cub Scout, and the pushing of the religious agenda was one of the reasons I never got past Webelos.

My parents had nothing to do with it. They'd both been brought up in strict, religious homes, and had decided not to discuss religion with my sister and I as we grew up unless we brought it up, then they would be encyclopedic in their responses. We were free to go to church and church-related activities with our friends, or not to. They just didn't push any of it on us.

Oddly, both my sister and I grew up to be atheists (not agnostics). Funny how it works if you don't indoctrinate kids into your religion at an early age.

Anyway, I was always unhappy with the religious subtext in scouts, so I just stopped going. Not really sure why an atheist would want to be in the Scouts.


If you'd made it past Webelo, maybe you'd know.  Scouting is good for a boy, overall.  It could be good for more boys, obviously.  The BSA leadership is gradually being infiltrated by people whose priority is doing the most good for the most boys.
 
2013-02-01 07:56:14 PM
The gay one was easy - there is nothing programmatic about sexuality in Scouting, so in all honesty, it's amazing (ok, not really) that it wasn't removed earlier.

The great rub though of Scouting is that faith and religion are all over the program, though emphasis of such is very diverse depending on the troop.  My troop didn't look the other way but they did kinda the bare minimum to address faith in the program.

But the bigger issue is not the program but the charter organizations.  If you make faith optional in the program, you might have a decent shot at retaining a good portion of the charter organizations.  If you remove it completely - they're f*cked for quite awhile.
 
2013-02-01 07:56:53 PM

TappingTheVein: Interesting, coming from an organization founded by a closeted homosexual.


Maybe he was not homosexual towards men but really really enjoyed watching young naked boys develop into young naked men.

Up through at least the 1960s is was almost a rule that all male groups would swim naked - the Boy Scouts, the YMCA pool etc. As a kid I swam naked in the officer's pool at the Pentagon and attended a High School where swimming in gym class was naked.

I guess it was the start of legitimization of homosexuality at the end of the 1960s that turned guys into prudes. If homos weren't being arrested and sent to prison then maybe some of the naked guys you hang out with might get so turned on looking at you that they want you.

I've heard that many Schools now have individual stalls for showers after gym to protect children from the gaze of gays.
 
2013-02-01 07:57:03 PM

cptjeff: Jaws_Victim: neppyman:
/ Eagle Scout.
// OA initiate, and yes, OA is a cult.

Could someone explain the Order of the Arrow bullshiat? When I was in scouts they required a nomination each year, and I was the only one in our small group who was of age to do it. They all told me I would be nominated and I told them I wouldn't do it, no matter what. The only reason I could give was that someone told me I had to go into the woods all day and night with no food and set up shelter and in Washington State that meant 40 degree or less and pouring rain. No thanks.

So the camping trip came, and they have this big whole stupid ceremony you  have to do. You stand in a big circle with the initiates all over the state and a Native American guy in the center talks about it. They give each of you an arrow, and then there is a portion where they say something like "If you do not wish to tread this path, lay down your arrows and none shall be judged." threw the arrow down and left.

Unfortunately, they didn't count on anyone doing that. Because no one had done that in twenty YEARS of the order of the arrow happening. I was able to leave, but because of how "secret" it was I ended up getting blocked by two Order of the Arrow posts outside the ceremony to keep anyone from entering. One was this dickhole scoutmaster who COULD NOT BELIEVE I declined such an honor. On my personal escort back to camp, I was told what a failure I was, how no one had ever declined, what a disgrace to scouting I was, etc etc.

My scoutmaster and leaders were totally cool, and after the trip that dude had serious issues. But what the fark? Why is order of the arrow such a big screaming deal? What did I thankfully miss out on?

The ordeal and ceremonies are just kind of a side item to give it an air of mystery and make it seem like more of a thing than it is. It's really just an excuse to hang out with a bunch of older and more serious scouts and leaders from other troops on a regular basis, which is fun. There ...


It was the WWW before there was the internet....
 
2013-02-01 07:57:33 PM

Mrtraveler01: El_Frijole_Blanco: MaudlinMutantMollusk: A Scout is:

Trustworthy,Loyal,Helpful,Friendly,Courteous,Kind,Obedient,Cheerful, Thrifty,Brave,Clean,and Reverent. I never could get more than 11 out of 12

As a 12 year old boy I am sure most of that list gets tossed out except maybe the gay kids have better hygiene

The Clean part of it really meant "morally clean" moreso than hygiene.

At least that's what I was told.


It would have to be. Because by the time those kids hit middle school age, they are anything but physically clean.
[ponders]
And if they are morally clean, it's only for want of opportunity.
 
2013-02-01 07:57:55 PM
No Klondyke Derby references?
 
2013-02-01 08:00:26 PM

realmolo: Fark the Boy Scouts. It's a worthless organization. Does *anybody* who joins the Boy Scouts get anything out of it? It's a weird little club where you do weird little activities. I've never understood it. Nobody I know understands the appeal.


City queers usually don't get it.

\\JK....they get it.
\\\They get it in the arse.

\\\\doesn't hate the gays, just being snarky.
 
2013-02-01 08:00:28 PM
If the Boy Scouts is a private organization, then shouldn't they have the right to choose who they let in or not?  Just how welcomed are the first few gays going to feel?  You're only here because the government said we couldn't deny you.  That's going to make them feel good on the first day.

Now, if the Boy Scouts is funded by tax payers and through the government then why did it take so long for this to happen?  I honestly don't know if they are privately funded or not.  Just believe that if a private entity doesn't want a certain group to be a part of them, then they should have the right to say "no".
 
2013-02-01 08:00:39 PM

cptjeff: Lionel Mandrake: fusillade762: Boy scouting is a religion.

Don't be silly.  AA is a religion.  Amway is a religion.  Freemasonry is a religion.

The Boy Scouts are a cult.  Like $cientology.

You have to get a little further in for the cult stuff. 1st class at least and voted in by your fellow scouts.

\Actually, the OA is the BSA's take on a secret society.
\\Lotsa fun.


Except it's not a secret society.  (It Was.)  According to policy, parents can observe the ceremonies if they desire.  Not well known, but that's the policy.

//20 years in the OA, and like anywhere else, you gotta marginalize the crazies and take the organization for what it is, a service organization in the vein of the National Honor Society with a dash of Free Masonry.  Yes people take it too seriously, but my lodge has done a lot for the community recently.
 
2013-02-01 08:01:39 PM
Boy Scouts is a cool organization. Needs more gun training tho.

We are all winners when its about guns and butt sex.

Shake and bake!
 
2013-02-01 08:03:49 PM

KangTheMad: "Supreme Being" is in accordance to the initiate's interpretation. Your Supreme Being, or Grand Architecht of the Universe, could be physics. Political and religious discussion is forbidden in Lodges.


Oh, now that's just being dishonest and you know it.  Pretending to be something you're not -- whether by flat out lying or being deceptive by omission -- to join a discriminatory organization is something that takes a complete lack of personal integrity.

/mother of two atheist sons who, after hearing about the organization's stance on atheism, want nothing to do with it.
 
2013-02-01 08:04:13 PM

Mrtraveler01: The Clean part of it really meant "morally clean" moreso than hygiene.


I did OA Trail Crew up at Northern Tier. Two sets of clothes, one wet for paddling and working (busting up rocks with a sledgehammer, that sort of thing), one for wearing in camp. Two weeks. Hygiene was not high on the priority list, but when you all smell equally awful...

Still, showers were nice at the end.
 
2013-02-01 08:04:27 PM

KangTheMad: "Supreme Being" is in accordance to the initiate's interpretation. Your Supreme Being, or Grand Architecht of the Universe, could be physics. Political and religious discussion is forbidden in Lodges.


It's part of what makes it a great organization.
 
2013-02-01 08:05:08 PM
So, wait...What if you are a Muslim or Scientologist? Or does it only matter that you have faith in some sort of unprovable, all-powerful entity's existance?
 
2013-02-01 08:06:40 PM

lostcat: So, wait...What if you are a Muslim or Scientologist? Or does it only matter that you have faith in some sort of unprovable, all-powerful entity's existance?


Or what about faith in something that actually exists?  For example, I personally believe in the phone company.
 
2013-02-01 08:07:12 PM

HortusMatris: KangTheMad: "Supreme Being" is in accordance to the initiate's interpretation. Your Supreme Being, or Grand Architecht of the Universe, could be physics. Political and religious discussion is forbidden in Lodges.

Oh, now that's just being dishonest and you know it.  Pretending to be something you're not -- whether by flat out lying or being deceptive by omission -- to join a discriminatory organization is something that takes a complete lack of personal integrity.

/mother of two atheist sons who, after hearing about the organization's stance on atheism, want nothing to do with it.


Well, since you have no interest in changing the organization from within, I might suggest trying to change it from the outside.  The program as a whole is great and it is unfortunate that they have not adopted a more inclusive policy.  I hope they change the policy one day, and I hope folks who were upset with the policy take another look if it changes.
 
2013-02-01 08:07:17 PM

coeyagi: cptjeff: Lionel Mandrake: fusillade762: Boy scouting is a religion.

Don't be silly.  AA is a religion.  Amway is a religion.  Freemasonry is a religion.

The Boy Scouts are a cult.  Like $cientology.

You have to get a little further in for the cult stuff. 1st class at least and voted in by your fellow scouts.

\Actually, the OA is the BSA's take on a secret society.
\\Lotsa fun.

Except it's not a secret society.  (It Was.)  According to policy, parents can observe the ceremonies if they desire.  Not well known, but that's the policy.


When did they make that rule? Granted, I was only involved as a youth, but the only people I ever saw, or heard of being there, were members. I even did ceremonies for a while, and never saw anyone that wasn't a scout, and a member of the OA.
 
2013-02-01 08:07:58 PM

cptjeff: Mrtraveler01: The Clean part of it really meant "morally clean" moreso than hygiene.

I did OA Trail Crew up at Northern Tier. Two sets of clothes, one wet for paddling and working (busting up rocks with a sledgehammer, that sort of thing), one for wearing in camp. Two weeks. Hygiene was not high on the priority list, but when you all smell equally awful...

Still, showers were nice at the end.


Then you must be thrilled by the new Jamboree facilities.  Sigh.
 
2013-02-01 08:09:17 PM

cptjeff: coeyagi: cptjeff: Lionel Mandrake: fusillade762: Boy scouting is a religion.

Don't be silly.  AA is a religion.  Amway is a religion.  Freemasonry is a religion.

The Boy Scouts are a cult.  Like $cientology.

You have to get a little further in for the cult stuff. 1st class at least and voted in by your fellow scouts.

\Actually, the OA is the BSA's take on a secret society.
\\Lotsa fun.

Except it's not a secret society.  (It Was.)  According to policy, parents can observe the ceremonies if they desire.  Not well known, but that's the policy.

When did they make that rule? Granted, I was only involved as a youth, but the only people I ever saw, or heard of being there, were members. I even did ceremonies for a while, and never saw anyone that wasn't a scout, and a member of the OA.


It's in their Field Operations Guide I believe.  I gotta go look.  Like I said, not well publicized obviously, and we haven't had anyone demand to be at the ceremony in my lodge, but that's the policy.
 
2013-02-01 08:09:33 PM
Now there's an organization determined to fling itself in to the dustbin of history.
 
2013-02-01 08:09:35 PM

scottydoesntknow: cptjeff: GF named my left testicle thundercles: KangTheMad: GF named my left testicle thundercles: [i1172.photobucket.com image 500x642]
i was a boy scout and an atheist. from my experience, religion isnt a big part of the boyscouts. in fact i have never considered it be a religious organization and i dont recall any religious tone. i dont know where this article is coming from. i also dont understand all the recent hate for it. its a great organization and should be able to do what it feels is best for the development of young men that wish to participate.

The nut-wing religious folk got their paws on the decision-making seats and have been pushing for known homosexuals to be kicked out. This led to a den mother being kicked out for being lesbian, and the internet sorta went off like a bomb.

women are allowed in the boy scouts? since when? i thought that it was a purely fraternal organization

Women are allowed in as leaders. And den leader is cub scouts, not boy scouts.

If they fight hard enough they can get into regular Boy Scouts too. One of my old friend's insane sister threatened to sue if they didn't allow her to join (thank god it wasn't our troop). She was also in OA. She's one of those who believes that women can AND MUST do everything better (not equal, but better) than a man. The belief was shattered when her femur was shattered after challenging a 6th degree blackbelt (male of course) in a Karate Tournament because she wanted to prove how tough she was. One hard kick and she was on the mat. Still crazy, but at least she doesn't go around purposely antagonizing people.


i1172.photobucket.com
holy fark, lol. a shattered femur would be a lifelong crippling injury. her feminism has literally made her a cripple. oh god that is amazing.
 
2013-02-01 08:09:38 PM
cptjeff: The ordeal and ceremonies are just kind of a side item to give it an air of mystery and make it seem like more of a thing than it is. It's really just an excuse to hang out with a bunch of older and more serious scouts and leaders from other troops on a regular basis, which is fun. There aren't any negatives other than the ordeal, which is basically a ritualistic day of mild labor, and you only do it once.

Wow, that sort of sucks. I went through my OA ritual at Beech Mountain Boy Scout camp near Livingstone Manor, NY in the early 70's. The initial ceremony was done in front of a crowd, and the older scout giving you the three hits was a ham that got carried away and really wailed on you. The old guy running it was a no nonsense ex marine who had been a POW in the Korean war, and he loved to fail the candidates, he really got off on it. I found out later that he made bets with the CIT's on how many he could disqualify. They woke us up at dawn and marched us two miles to build steps with handsaws and shovels up a steep hill to a new camp, then in the afternoon took us to the dining hall to scrub the floors on our hands and knees while they were slow cooking meat in the kitchen. I actually started to drool involuntarily, like a dog, smelling it. All during the day they would try to get us to say something, mostly by trickery. We started with 11 guys and finished with 7. When they had the second ceremony swearing you in you really felt like you had done something.
 
2013-02-01 08:11:15 PM

madgonad: In the American social order, the only thing lower than atheists are pedophiles.
[www.theblaze.com image 530x361]


Hey, at least we're more popular with Republicans than Muslims. So there's that.
 
2013-02-01 08:11:57 PM

varmitydog: cptjeff: The ordeal and ceremonies are just kind of a side item to give it an air of mystery and make it seem like more of a thing than it is. It's really just an excuse to hang out with a bunch of older and more serious scouts and leaders from other troops on a regular basis, which is fun. There aren't any negatives other than the ordeal, which is basically a ritualistic day of mild labor, and you only do it once.

Wow, that sort of sucks. I went through my OA ritual at Beech Mountain Boy Scout camp near Livingstone Manor, NY in the early 70's. The initial ceremony was done in front of a crowd, and the older scout giving you the three hits was a ham that got carried away and really wailed on you. The old guy running it was a no nonsense ex marine who had been a POW in the Korean war, and he loved to fail the candidates, he really got off on it. I found out later that he made bets with the CIT's on how many he could disqualify. They woke us up at dawn and marched us two miles to build steps with handsaws and shovels up a steep hill to a new camp, then in the afternoon took us to the dining hall to scrub the floors on our hands and knees while they were slow cooking meat in the kitchen. I actually started to drool involuntarily, like a dog, smelling it. All during the day they would try to get us to say something, mostly by trickery. We started with 11 guys and finished with 7. When they had the second ceremony swearing you in you really felt like you had done something.


This experience was indicative of many "Tap-Out" ceremonies until the 90s.  They are now called "Call-Out" ceremonies and no one is supposed to wail on your collar bone.  The poster before was referring to the Ordeal, not the Tap Out / Call Out.
 
2013-02-01 08:15:12 PM
OK, we'll let the gay chinks and nubianrs in, but no Irish
 
2013-02-01 08:15:12 PM

scottydoesntknow: lawlz: Why would they openly allow pedophiles to join, let alone lead?

[zenster.net image 216x202]


The thing is, BSA already lets in pedophiles, and then hides it when boys are molested.
 
2013-02-01 08:17:57 PM

randomjsa: Trustworthy, Loyal, Helpful, Friendly, Courteous, Kind, Obedient, Cheerful, Thrifty, Brave, Clean and... Reverent.

I may not like the BSA, but asking them to be non-religious is a bit stupid. It would be like asking a charity to be.. non-charitable.


From teh Wikipedias:
In contrast to the Christian-only Boys' Brigade, which started two decades earlier, Robert Baden-Powell founded the Scout movement as a youth organisation (with boys as 'Scouts' and girls as 'Guides'), which was independent of any single faith or religion, yet still held that spirituality and a belief in a higher power were key to the development of young people.

When I joined in the 80's, it was Jesus this and Jesus that and Mormon indoctrination at every turn. I lasted two weeks then decided I couldn't stand it any longer.
 
2013-02-01 08:18:25 PM

coeyagi: cptjeff: Mrtraveler01: The Clean part of it really meant "morally clean" moreso than hygiene.

I did OA Trail Crew up at Northern Tier. Two sets of clothes, one wet for paddling and working (busting up rocks with a sledgehammer, that sort of thing), one for wearing in camp. Two weeks. Hygiene was not high on the priority list, but when you all smell equally awful...

Still, showers were nice at the end.

Then you must be thrilled by the new Jamboree facilities.  Sigh.


The only jamboree I was at was the one where a bunch of people died and even more passed out from the heat when the Secret Service decided they wouldn't let people take water in to see the President (who had to cancel the first night anyway) at the opening ceremony.

I don't remember much about the showers, other than that they were cold water only.

I'm honestly fine with them moving away from AP Hill. If they have a "not somehow below freezing in the height of summer" option for the water, that's all the better. Northern Tier had a farking sauna. After two weeks in the same set of clothes, Shower/Sauna/Shower/Sauna/Rinse was pretty damn nice.
 
2013-02-01 08:19:08 PM

Mike Chewbacca: scottydoesntknow: lawlz: Why would they openly allow pedophiles to join, let alone lead?

[zenster.net image 216x202]

The thing is, BSA already lets in pedophiles, and then hides it when boys are molested.


Oh hey guys, we're talking about the past!  Fun!

//yes, they did, doesn't happen now in a general sense.  Know someone in Scouts who did something akin to molestation, was arrested and kicked out swiftly and being prosecuted now and had his name all throughout local press.  I suppose it may still happen in some small parts.  But at a policy level, there is a zero tolerance policy and bi-yearly Youth Protection Training.
 
2013-02-01 08:19:21 PM

Mike Chewbacca: scottydoesntknow: lawlz: Why would they openly allow pedophiles to join, let alone lead?

[zenster.net image 216x202]

The thing is, BSA already lets in pedophiles, and then hides it when boys are molested.


So you're supporting lawlz assumption that every gay is a pedophile? Because I'm pretty sure that's what he was going for.
 
2013-02-01 08:20:30 PM
I enjoyed my years in the Scouts. My father died when I was very young and I probably never would have had the opportunity to do a lot of the camping I did had I not joined. It was also a good thing for a boy who had only two sisters and a mother as family, and no other male influences. I don't remember any emphasis at all on religion in my troop. I finally did lose interest in it, like a lot of kids I guess, after I hit puberty and became more interested in hanging out with my friends.

On thing I always did enjoy was my subscription to Boys' Life magazine. I especially liked the short stories about the scouts who found a time machine.
 
2013-02-01 08:20:50 PM

cptjeff: coeyagi: cptjeff: Mrtraveler01: The Clean part of it really meant "morally clean" moreso than hygiene.

I did OA Trail Crew up at Northern Tier. Two sets of clothes, one wet for paddling and working (busting up rocks with a sledgehammer, that sort of thing), one for wearing in camp. Two weeks. Hygiene was not high on the priority list, but when you all smell equally awful...

Still, showers were nice at the end.

Then you must be thrilled by the new Jamboree facilities.  Sigh.

The only jamboree I was at was the one where a bunch of people died and even more passed out from the heat when the Secret Service decided they wouldn't let people take water in to see the President (who had to cancel the first night anyway) at the opening ceremony.

I don't remember much about the showers, other than that they were cold water only.

I'm honestly fine with them moving away from AP Hill. If they have a "not somehow below freezing in the height of summer" option for the water, that's all the better. Northern Tier had a farking sauna. After two weeks in the same set of clothes, Shower/Sauna/Shower/Sauna/Rinse was pretty damn nice.


I am betting you were at the 1993 Jamboree. That was the only one I was at.  And Bubba did skip out (I think because of the gay thing too, if I recall).

They did have hot showers at AP Hill at some point, but now at The Summit, cold showers again.
 
2013-02-01 08:21:37 PM

coeyagi: Mike Chewbacca: scottydoesntknow: lawlz: Why would they openly allow pedophiles to join, let alone lead?

[zenster.net image 216x202]

The thing is, BSA already lets in pedophiles, and then hides it when boys are molested.

Oh hey guys, we're talking about the past!  Fun!

//yes, they did, doesn't happen now in a general sense.  Know someone in Scouts who did something akin to molestation, was arrested and kicked out swiftly and being prosecuted now and had his name all throughout local press.  I suppose it may still happen in some small parts.  But at a policy level, there is a zero tolerance policy and bi-yearly Youth Protection Training.


Yeah, the past, like the entire prior 30 years.

scottydoesntknow: Mike Chewbacca: scottydoesntknow: lawlz: Why would they openly allow pedophiles to join, let alone lead?

[zenster.net image 216x202]

The thing is, BSA already lets in pedophiles, and then hides it when boys are molested.

So you're supporting lawlz assumption that every gay is a pedophile? Because I'm pretty sure that's what he was going for.


No, I'm not. lawlz is an ass. I was just making a snarky response.
 
2013-02-01 08:21:47 PM

fusillade762: WTF Indeed: fusillade762: Boy scouting is a religion.

No it's not. Don't be an ass.

I'm just preempting a certain Frenchman who's no doubt on his way.


I see your learned behavior.
 
2013-02-01 08:21:52 PM

coeyagi: varmitydog: cptjeff: The ordeal and ceremonies are just kind of a side item to give it an air of mystery and make it seem like more of a thing than it is. It's really just an excuse to hang out with a bunch of older and more serious scouts and leaders from other troops on a regular basis, which is fun. There aren't any negatives other than the ordeal, which is basically a ritualistic day of mild labor, and you only do it once.

Wow, that sort of sucks. I went through my OA ritual at Beech Mountain Boy Scout camp near Livingstone Manor, NY in the early 70's. The initial ceremony was done in front of a crowd, and the older scout giving you the three hits was a ham that got carried away and really wailed on you. The old guy running it was a no nonsense ex marine who had been a POW in the Korean war, and he loved to fail the candidates, he really got off on it. I found out later that he made bets with the CIT's on how many he could disqualify. They woke us up at dawn and marched us two miles to build steps with handsaws and shovels up a steep hill to a new camp, then in the afternoon took us to the dining hall to scrub the floors on our hands and knees while they were slow cooking meat in the kitchen. I actually started to drool involuntarily, like a dog, smelling it. All during the day they would try to get us to say something, mostly by trickery. We started with 11 guys and finished with 7. When they had the second ceremony swearing you in you really felt like you had done something.

This experience was indicative of many "Tap-Out" ceremonies until the 90s.  They are now called "Call-Out" ceremonies and no one is supposed to wail on your collar bone.  The poster before was referring to the Ordeal, not the Tap Out / Call Out.


Pssh. Mic-O-Say basically wedgies you.

/KC's Heart of America council... the leader in "OA on steroids"
 
2013-02-01 08:22:57 PM

MrEricSir: lostcat: So, wait...What if you are a Muslim or Scientologist? Or does it only matter that you have faith in some sort of unprovable, all-powerful entity's existance?

Or what about faith in something that actually exists?  For example, I personally believe in the phone company.


Joe Pesci
 
2013-02-01 08:24:24 PM

Great Janitor: If the Boy Scouts is a private organization, then shouldn't they have the right to choose who they let in or not?  Just how welcomed are the first few gays going to feel?  You're only here because the government said we couldn't deny you.  That's going to make them feel good on the first day.

Now, if the Boy Scouts is funded by tax payers and through the government then why did it take so long for this to happen?  I honestly don't know if they are privately funded or not.  Just believe that if a private entity doesn't want a certain group to be a part of them, then they should have the right to say "no".


They aren't funded by tax payers, but they do often operate on government land, in schools, and scouts get benefits if they join the military.
 
2013-02-01 08:24:37 PM

Mike Chewbacca: coeyagi: Mike Chewbacca: scottydoesntknow: lawlz: Why would they openly allow pedophiles to join, let alone lead?

[zenster.net image 216x202]

The thing is, BSA already lets in pedophiles, and then hides it when boys are molested.

Oh hey guys, we're talking about the past!  Fun!

//yes, they did, doesn't happen now in a general sense.  Know someone in Scouts who did something akin to molestation, was arrested and kicked out swiftly and being prosecuted now and had his name all throughout local press.  I suppose it may still happen in some small parts.  But at a policy level, there is a zero tolerance policy and bi-yearly Youth Protection Training.

Yeah, the past, like the entire prior 30 years.

scottydoesntknow: Mike Chewbacca: scottydoesntknow: lawlz: Why would they openly allow pedophiles to join, let alone lead?

[zenster.net image 216x202]

The thing is, BSA already lets in pedophiles, and then hides it when boys are molested.

So you're supporting lawlz assumption that every gay is a pedophile? Because I'm pretty sure that's what he was going for.

No, I'm not. lawlz is an ass. I was just making a snarky response.


No, they haven't been hiding it recently.  They just released the list of people they were hiding.  I am not sure where the cutoff is.  If there were some on the list that were recently, I retract, but I think the last 10 years they haven't been "hiding" it.  But again, you're talking about the national organization.  They make policy and do dickish things.  The average unit leader or even council leader never did this crap.  Because they are dealing with youth.  National is so removed from youth sometimes they obviously don't realize the harm they do with these actions.
 
2013-02-01 08:25:04 PM
First off- my kids scout den is virtually agnostic. Maybe it's because i live in a reasonable part of the country(the northeast), religion or, um, gaiety, isn't even discussed. Who cares. Also nobody whose not a freak owns a gun.

That said, if you don't like what an organization stands for, then don't join, you atheistic gay whiners.
 
2013-02-01 08:25:28 PM
It's funny that the Girl Scouts don't have this same issue. They let in everyone, because they want ALL girls to grow to be strong women, not just the "right" girls. Of course, that might be because the Mormons haven't taken over GSUSA, likely because Mormons don't want strong women.
 
2013-02-01 08:26:26 PM

coeyagi: Mike Chewbacca: coeyagi: Mike Chewbacca: scottydoesntknow: lawlz: Why would they openly allow pedophiles to join, let alone lead?

[zenster.net image 216x202]

The thing is, BSA already lets in pedophiles, and then hides it when boys are molested.

Oh hey guys, we're talking about the past!  Fun!

//yes, they did, doesn't happen now in a general sense.  Know someone in Scouts who did something akin to molestation, was arrested and kicked out swiftly and being prosecuted now and had his name all throughout local press.  I suppose it may still happen in some small parts.  But at a policy level, there is a zero tolerance policy and bi-yearly Youth Protection Training.

Yeah, the past, like the entire prior 30 years.

scottydoesntknow: Mike Chewbacca: scottydoesntknow: lawlz: Why would they openly allow pedophiles to join, let alone lead?

[zenster.net image 216x202]

The thing is, BSA already lets in pedophiles, and then hides it when boys are molested.

So you're supporting lawlz assumption that every gay is a pedophile? Because I'm pretty sure that's what he was going for.

No, I'm not. lawlz is an ass. I was just making a snarky response.

No, they haven't been hiding it recently.  They just released the list of people they were hiding.  I am not sure where the cutoff is.  If there were some on the list that were recently, I retract, but I think the last 10 years they haven't been "hiding" it.  But again, you're talking about the national organization.  They make policy and do dickish things.  The average unit leader or even council leader never did this crap.  Because they are dealing with youth.  National is so removed from youth sometimes they obviously don't realize the harm they do with these actions.


Why does it matter if it's the national organization doing it? It's the national organization that is only now letting in gays, and still bans atheists and agnostics.
 
2013-02-01 08:26:31 PM

Mike Chewbacca: No, I'm not. lawlz is an ass. I was just making a snarky response


Ok cool. Snarky responses are cool, supporting trolls isn't. And yea, it's sad, and that shiat (the cover-ups) usually happen in organizations with the most respect to lose (see: Catholic Church/Penn State).

The saddest part is if they just kicked them out immediately and prosecuted, they'd be seen as heroes. You can't know a person you're about to hire is a sick pedo if they've never been caught, but you sure as hell can deal with it the right way once it's found out.
 
2013-02-01 08:26:37 PM

Marine1: coeyagi: varmitydog: cptjeff: The ordeal and ceremonies are just kind of a side item to give it an air of mystery and make it seem like more of a thing than it is. It's really just an excuse to hang out with a bunch of older and more serious scouts and leaders from other troops on a regular basis, which is fun. There aren't any negatives other than the ordeal, which is basically a ritualistic day of mild labor, and you only do it once.

Wow, that sort of sucks. I went through my OA ritual at Beech Mountain Boy Scout camp near Livingstone Manor, NY in the early 70's. The initial ceremony was done in front of a crowd, and the older scout giving you the three hits was a ham that got carried away and really wailed on you. The old guy running it was a no nonsense ex marine who had been a POW in the Korean war, and he loved to fail the candidates, he really got off on it. I found out later that he made bets with the CIT's on how many he could disqualify. They woke us up at dawn and marched us two miles to build steps with handsaws and shovels up a steep hill to a new camp, then in the afternoon took us to the dining hall to scrub the floors on our hands and knees while they were slow cooking meat in the kitchen. I actually started to drool involuntarily, like a dog, smelling it. All during the day they would try to get us to say something, mostly by trickery. We started with 11 guys and finished with 7. When they had the second ceremony swearing you in you really felt like you had done something.

This experience was indicative of many "Tap-Out" ceremonies until the 90s.  They are now called "Call-Out" ceremonies and no one is supposed to wail on your collar bone.  The poster before was referring to the Ordeal, not the Tap Out / Call Out.

Pssh. Mic-O-Say basically wedgies you.

/KC's Heart of America council... the leader in "OA on steroids"


Yeah, they are the exception.  That isn't even the OA, is it?  I just heard about them this year.  Sounds like they take the OA to extremes and don't really have an OA charter because they do their own thing.  Or is that incorrect?  Like I said, just heard about it in passing in June.
 
2013-02-01 08:27:09 PM
When I was a boy scout...

Hahaha, just kidding.

I was playing baseball, football and basketball, and looking through our Playboy subscription at 12.

I thought "Weblows" was for the gays, anyway.
 
2013-02-01 08:27:55 PM

cptjeff: KangTheMad: Political and religious discussion is forbidden in Lodges.

What's left?


Boats and Hos.
 
2013-02-01 08:27:58 PM
Boo hoo, not every organization on earth is something we qualify to join.  Let's whine until they change their rules because our feelings are hurt!
 
2013-02-01 08:28:23 PM

scottydoesntknow: Mike Chewbacca: No, I'm not. lawlz is an ass. I was just making a snarky response

Ok cool. Snarky responses are cool, supporting trolls isn't. And yea, it's sad, and that shiat (the cover-ups) usually happen in organizations with the most respect to lose (see: Catholic Church/Penn State).

The saddest part is if they just kicked them out immediately and prosecuted, they'd be seen as heroes. You can't know a person you're about to hire is a sick pedo if they've never been caught, but you sure as hell can deal with it the right way once it's found out.


Yep. My family has a strong history of Scouting. I've got my grandfather's scout backpack (I never wear it; it's uncomfortable as hell). It just sucks to see such an awesome organization go down the wrong path (ie, ban gays and atheists). ALL boys should have access to Scouts.
 
2013-02-01 08:28:28 PM

coeyagi: Mike Chewbacca: scottydoesntknow: lawlz: Why would they openly allow pedophiles to join, let alone lead?

[zenster.net image 216x202]

The thing is, BSA already lets in pedophiles, and then hides it when boys are molested.

Oh hey guys, we're talking about the past!  Fun!

//yes, they did, doesn't happen now in a general sense.


BWAHAHAHAHAHA! No. It still happens.
 
2013-02-01 08:28:50 PM
So it looks like I'll continue only supporting the Girl Scouts, then.

Good for the gays for gaining acceptance (sort of), but the Boy Scouts are still stuck in a 1950s America that never really existed. It's actually pretty interesting to me how the two organizations have handled modernization so differently.
 
2013-02-01 08:29:38 PM

BraveNewCheneyWorld: Boo hoo, not every organization on earth is something we qualify to join.  Let's whine until they change their rules because our feelings are hurt!


There's a difference between qualifying and "we don't let your kind in." But you knew that already.

Civil_War2_Time: When I was a boy scout...

Hahaha, just kidding.

I was playing baseball, football and basketball, and looking through our Playboy subscription at 12.

I thought "Weblows" was for the gays, anyway.


What the fark do you think Boy Scouts is about? Knitting?
 
2013-02-01 08:30:08 PM

TappingTheVein: Interesting, coming from an organization founded by a closeted homosexual.


The Christian church, right?
 
2013-02-01 08:30:12 PM

Mike Chewbacca: coeyagi: Mike Chewbacca: coeyagi: Mike Chewbacca: scottydoesntknow: lawlz: Why would they openly allow pedophiles to join, let alone lead?

[zenster.net image 216x202]

The thing is, BSA already lets in pedophiles, and then hides it when boys are molested.

Oh hey guys, we're talking about the past!  Fun!

//yes, they did, doesn't happen now in a general sense.  Know someone in Scouts who did something akin to molestation, was arrested and kicked out swiftly and being prosecuted now and had his name all throughout local press.  I suppose it may still happen in some small parts.  But at a policy level, there is a zero tolerance policy and bi-yearly Youth Protection Training.

Yeah, the past, like the entire prior 30 years.

scottydoesntknow: Mike Chewbacca: scottydoesntknow: lawlz: Why would they openly allow pedophiles to join, let alone lead?

[zenster.net image 216x202]

The thing is, BSA already lets in pedophiles, and then hides it when boys are molested.

So you're supporting lawlz assumption that every gay is a pedophile? Because I'm pretty sure that's what he was going for.

No, I'm not. lawlz is an ass. I was just making a snarky response.

No, they haven't been hiding it recently.  They just released the list of people they were hiding.  I am not sure where the cutoff is.  If there were some on the list that were recently, I retract, but I think the last 10 years they haven't been "hiding" it.  But again, you're talking about the national organization.  They make policy and do dickish things.  The average unit leader or even council leader never did this crap.  Because they are dealing with youth.  National is so removed from youth sometimes they obviously don't realize the harm they do with these actions.

Why does it matter if it's the national organization doing it? It's the national organization that is only now letting in gays, and still bans atheists and agnostics.


That's called setting policy of which the unit and councils must abide.  My point is that I am not going to condemn the units for something national did that was egregiously bad.  Nor am I patting National on the back for passing the buck to charter organizations on allowing gays.  I am just saying, it WASN'T a national policy in the past, but it WAS a national practice IN THE PAST and it was shameful and I am glad its over.  I am just fleshing out the details that the practice is over and I think has been over for a decade.
 
2013-02-01 08:30:35 PM

coeyagi: I am betting you were at the 1993 Jamboree. That was the only one I was at. And Bubba did skip out (I think because of the gay thing too, if I recall).


2005. I'm a tad younger than you, I'm afraid. Bush was supposed to be at the opening, but they decided not to fly Shrub in, and cancelled the event due to the heat. He came for the closing, and our SPL got to be on the stage. But at the opening that wound up being cancelled, they wouldn't let you bring in water, which ended so well in 90+ degree, extremely humid weather. They were throwing bottled water and people were fighting over it like tee shirts at sports game. And of course, a few hundred people got heatstroke. Complete and utter clusterfark, though they learned their lesson for the closing ceremony.


coeyagi: They did have hot showers at AP Hill at some point, but now at The Summit, cold showers again.


What, in the staff area?
 
2013-02-01 08:30:43 PM

fusillade762: Boy scouting is a religion.


Yeah, and 762 is your surname.
 
2013-02-01 08:30:53 PM

I should be in the kitchen: So it looks like I'll continue only supporting the Girl Scouts, then.

Good for the gays for gaining acceptance (sort of), but the Boy Scouts are still stuck in a 1950s America that never really existed. It's actually pretty interesting to me how the two organizations have handled modernization so differently.


Mormons don't want strong girls growing into strong, independent women. They want baby machines.
 
2013-02-01 08:31:03 PM

Ed Grubermann: coeyagi: Mike Chewbacca: scottydoesntknow: lawlz: Why would they openly allow pedophiles to join, let alone lead?

[zenster.net image 216x202]

The thing is, BSA already lets in pedophiles, and then hides it when boys are molested.

Oh hey guys, we're talking about the past!  Fun!

//yes, they did, doesn't happen now in a general sense.

BWAHAHAHAHAHA! No. It still happens.


Really? National is still covering it up?  Proof?
 
2013-02-01 08:31:23 PM

Fano: Joe Pesci


Saint George is so proud.
 
2013-02-01 08:31:47 PM

cptjeff: coeyagi: I am betting you were at the 1993 Jamboree. That was the only one I was at. And Bubba did skip out (I think because of the gay thing too, if I recall).

2005. I'm a tad younger than you, I'm afraid. Bush was supposed to be at the opening, but they decided not to fly Shrub in, and cancelled the event due to the heat. He came for the closing, and our SPL got to be on the stage. But at the opening that wound up being cancelled, they wouldn't let you bring in water, which ended so well in 90+ degree, extremely humid weather. They were throwing bottled water and people were fighting over it like tee shirts at sports game. And of course, a few hundred people got heatstroke. Complete and utter clusterfark, though they learned their lesson for the closing ceremony.


coeyagi: They did have hot showers at AP Hill at some point, but now at The Summit, cold showers again.

What, in the staff area?


Everywhere I think.  The adults are pissed, the kids are probably like "Who cares?  I'm gonna stink anyway."
 
2013-02-01 08:31:59 PM
Mormons ruin everything.
 
2013-02-01 08:32:00 PM

Mike Chewbacca: BraveNewCheneyWorld: Boo hoo, not every organization on earth is something we qualify to join.  Let's whine until they change their rules because our feelings are hurt!

There's a difference between qualifying and "we don't let your kind in." But you knew that already.

Civil_War2_Time: When I was a boy scout...

Hahaha, just kidding.

I was playing baseball, football and basketball, and looking through our Playboy subscription at 12.

I thought "Weblows" was for the gays, anyway.

What the fark do you think Boy Scouts is about? Knitting?


it's about getting the kids out tf the house so you can sexy up the old lady
 
2013-02-01 08:32:09 PM
Not collecting sporting stamps is a religious hobby for balding homosexuals.
 
2013-02-01 08:33:22 PM

BraveNewCheneyWorld: Boo hoo, not every organization on earth is something we qualify to join.  Let's whine until they change their rules because our feelings are hurt!


You're okay with the Boy Scouts not being allowed to use public land, any public funding, or get any extra government benefits from joining the military then?  I mean, a private club should be private, right?
 
2013-02-01 08:33:28 PM

Champion of the Sun: Mormons ruin everything.


THIS.

And of course, there goes our meeting place for the council-wide roundtable.  Just as well, bastards wouldn't even let us bring coffee into the parking lot.
 
2013-02-01 08:33:52 PM
Don't forget, folks: all this violence in schools is "because we kicked God out."

... because he did such a swell job preventing molestation in his churches. Must have kicked him out of there too. Is there any place he's allowed?
 
2013-02-01 08:34:17 PM

Mike Chewbacca: BraveNewCheneyWorld: Boo hoo, not every organization on earth is something we qualify to join.  Let's whine until they change their rules because our feelings are hurt!

There's a difference between qualifying and "we don't let your kind in." But you knew that already.


Not really, you subscribe to their way of life, or you don't.  If you don't like it, don't whine like a little biatch and start your own club instead.
 
2013-02-01 08:35:40 PM

coeyagi: coeyagi: They did have hot showers at AP Hill at some point, but now at The Summit, cold showers again.

What, in the staff area?

Everywhere I think. The adults are pissed, the kids are probably like "Who cares? I'm gonna stink anyway."


Nah, I meant AP Hill. After the Jamboree I went to, I have a hard time believing there were ever hot showers. The thing was just a concrete pad with a couple spigots in the ground that they hooked a tent and some hardware up to every couple years...
 
2013-02-01 08:36:47 PM

Great Janitor: If the Boy Scouts is a private organization, then shouldn't they have the right to choose who they let in or not?  Just how welcomed are the first few gays going to feel?  You're only here because the government said we couldn't deny you.  That's going to make them feel good on the first day.

Now, if the Boy Scouts is funded by tax payers and through the government then why did it take so long for this to happen?  I honestly don't know if they are privately funded or not.  Just believe that if a private entity doesn't want a certain group to be a part of them, then they should have the right to say "no".



If private with no public funding, sure they do. However they get a lot of funding from the taxpayers as you can see here. The reason they got away with it is that until recently you could get away with this kind of crap when you were dealing with gays and atheists but things have changed and now it's only atheists they can marginalize.

Until they change their ways I also have the right to tell them to tell them I don't support organizations that discriminate when they stop me on the street or show up at my door asking for donations. I did the same to the girl scouts until they saw the light. It's funny they are willing to accept money or goods without checking to see if they are coming from an atheist but don't want them in their organization.

/wouldn't lie to get into cub scouts
//scout friends encouraged me to
///several of the friends later got merit badges in sodomy from scout master
 
2013-02-01 08:39:24 PM

BraveNewCheneyWorld: Mike Chewbacca: BraveNewCheneyWorld: Boo hoo, not every organization on earth is something we qualify to join.  Let's whine until they change their rules because our feelings are hurt!

There's a difference between qualifying and "we don't let your kind in." But you knew that already.

Not really, you subscribe to their way of life, or you don't.  If you don't like it, don't whine like a little biatch and start your own club instead.


So how does a black person subscribe to a white person's way of life?
 
2013-02-01 08:40:50 PM

coeyagi: Marine1: coeyagi: varmitydog: cptjeff: The ordeal and ceremonies are just kind of a side item to give it an air of mystery and make it seem like more of a thing than it is. It's really just an excuse to hang out with a bunch of older and more serious scouts and leaders from other troops on a regular basis, which is fun. There aren't any negatives other than the ordeal, which is basically a ritualistic day of mild labor, and you only do it once.

Wow, that sort of sucks. I went through my OA ritual at Beech Mountain Boy Scout camp near Livingstone Manor, NY in the early 70's. The initial ceremony was done in front of a crowd, and the older scout giving you the three hits was a ham that got carried away and really wailed on you. The old guy running it was a no nonsense ex marine who had been a POW in the Korean war, and he loved to fail the candidates, he really got off on it. I found out later that he made bets with the CIT's on how many he could disqualify. They woke us up at dawn and marched us two miles to build steps with handsaws and shovels up a steep hill to a new camp, then in the afternoon took us to the dining hall to scrub the floors on our hands and knees while they were slow cooking meat in the kitchen. I actually started to drool involuntarily, like a dog, smelling it. All during the day they would try to get us to say something, mostly by trickery. We started with 11 guys and finished with 7. When they had the second ceremony swearing you in you really felt like you had done something.

This experience was indicative of many "Tap-Out" ceremonies until the 90s.  They are now called "Call-Out" ceremonies and no one is supposed to wail on your collar bone.  The poster before was referring to the Ordeal, not the Tap Out / Call Out.

Pssh. Mic-O-Say basically wedgies you.

/KC's Heart of America council... the leader in "OA on steroids"

Yeah, they are the exception.  That isn't even the OA, is it?  I just heard about them this year.  Sounds like they take ...


It's a separate organization. It's based out of Camp Geiger (Pony Express Council in St. Joseph) and H. Roe Bartle Scout Reservation (Heart of America Council, KC). The OA program is out of Camp Naish in Bonner Springs.

I'm in both, and Mic-O-Say is definitely harder and more involved. I really mean it... they offer funerals and weddings. It's gone mostly untouched by the Snowflake movement of the 90s. It's nothing that would leave you with trauma, though.
 
2013-02-01 08:43:22 PM

MrEricSir: lostcat: So, wait...What if you are a Muslim or Scientologist? Or does it only matter that you have faith in some sort of unprovable, all-powerful entity's existance?

Or what about faith in something that actually exists?  For example, I personally believe in the phone company.


Yeah, but do you have FAITH in the phone company? The only faith I have in the phone company is that they'll f*ck up my bill in as many ways as possible.
 
2013-02-01 08:45:39 PM
Ask a Christian about why God allows innocent children to starve to death while unleashing random disasters that slaughter as many if not more of his own followers than those of other religions and non-believers.
Watch as they either tie themselves into knots with explanations of "free will" and "original sin", or dismiss you with "It's God's will/all part of God's plan".
Roll your eyes and wonder why people need so hard to believe in magical beings that simply love everyone and everything but will bring down unspeakable torture to all who they dislike.
 
2013-02-01 08:46:06 PM
When I was in Scouting there was certainly the influence of religion (weekly meetings were held in the education wing of a local church) on the effort to maturate us in to being well-rounded individuals.  However, the Council made great lengths at the time (ten to fifteen years ago) and still does today, to not discriminate as to what religion you were.  At all Council sponsored events they made sure not to ascribe to any major relgions' name to the 'Great Spirit' as it was often referred.  (And I'm sure some people thinks that racist or whatever but it wasn't and isn't)  I don't see any problem with people being atheist but something that was made evident to us in Scouting was that 'spirit' or faith is something that can drive you to overcome obstacles and do the best things.  As long as you made your choice to believe in something that made you do the best things, that's what was important.  I think this sentiment is reflected in the recent move by the BSA to allow charters to make a decision at the local level as to who can and cannot be a Scoutmaster in that locality.  What I hope this decision does is put emphasis on the values that everyone can agree on, which are of course part of an ongoing debate, and not on values that fail under the light of rational criticism.  The character of the individual chosen to lead a group of boys is what is important.  Sexual orientation is not an important factor.  Patience, reliability, even temper, pioneering skills, public speaking ability, and organizational ability are much more important factors.

/Yeah good luck
/Do a good turn daily.
 
2013-02-01 08:46:51 PM

Gyrfalcon: MrEricSir: lostcat: So, wait...What if you are a Muslim or Scientologist? Or does it only matter that you have faith in some sort of unprovable, all-powerful entity's existance?

Or what about faith in something that actually exists?  For example, I personally believe in the phone company.

Yeah, but do you have FAITH in the phone company? The only faith I have in the phone company is that they'll f*ck up my bill in as many ways as possible.


At least its an ethos.
 
2013-02-01 08:49:00 PM

Mike Chewbacca: BraveNewCheneyWorld: Mike Chewbacca: BraveNewCheneyWorld: Boo hoo, not every organization on earth is something we qualify to join.  Let's whine until they change their rules because our feelings are hurt!

There's a difference between qualifying and "we don't let your kind in." But you knew that already.

Not really, you subscribe to their way of life, or you don't.  If you don't like it, don't whine like a little biatch and start your own club instead.

So how does a black person subscribe to a white person's way of life?


Skin color isn't a way of life.  I'd say nice try, but it really wasn't.
 
2013-02-01 08:49:10 PM

cptjeff: Lionel Mandrake: fusillade762: Boy scouting is a religion.

Don't be silly.  AA is a religion.  Amway is a religion.  Freemasonry is a religion.

The Boy Scouts are a cult.  Like $cientology.

You have to get a little further in for the cult stuff. 1st class at least and voted in by your fellow scouts.

\Actually, the OA is the BSA's take on a secret society.
\\Lotsa fun.


I was a Lodge Chief in the OA and an Eagle Scout.  I went to catholic school for most of my life and could not have been more agnostic.  It hasnt been til recently that i have heard much about religion playing such a role in boy scouts.  i was involved from tiger cubs to eagle scouts.  I loved my time there and was as involved as could be, not one time can i remember anything overtly religious taking place.  There were occasionally prayers offered if you felt like listening at some of the larger events i attended (1993, 1997 nat'l Jamboree, 1994, 1996, 1998 NOAC) but no one did anything to force feed you anything, and i dont recall being interrogated about your duty to god during any of my experiences.  maybe i had it better than everyone else.
 
2013-02-01 08:49:24 PM
"But  not the Irish"
 
2013-02-01 08:49:52 PM

BraveNewCheneyWorld: Boo hoo, not every organization on earth is something we qualify to join.  Let's whine until they change their rules because our feelings are hurt!


Would you be saying that if they were discriminating against blacks?
 
2013-02-01 08:51:13 PM
Keizer_Ghidorah: Watch as they either tie themselves into knots with explanations of "free will" and "original sin", or dismiss you with "It's God's will/all part of God's plan".


This only happens in the imaginary conversations that you always manage to win in the shower. Otherwise, you generally STFU.
 
2013-02-01 08:52:59 PM

Seamus_Mc: cptjeff: Lionel Mandrake: fusillade762: Boy scouting is a religion.

Don't be silly.  AA is a religion.  Amway is a religion.  Freemasonry is a religion.

The Boy Scouts are a cult.  Like $cientology.

You have to get a little further in for the cult stuff. 1st class at least and voted in by your fellow scouts.

\Actually, the OA is the BSA's take on a secret society.
\\Lotsa fun.

I was a Lodge Chief in the OA and an Eagle Scout.  I went to catholic school for most of my life and could not have been more agnostic.  It hasnt been til recently that i have heard much about religion playing such a role in boy scouts.  i was involved from tiger cubs to eagle scouts.  I loved my time there and was as involved as could be, not one time can i remember anything overtly religious taking place.  There were occasionally prayers offered if you felt like listening at some of the larger events i attended (1993, 1997 nat'l Jamboree, 1994, 1996, 1998 NOAC) but no one did anything to force feed you anything, and i dont recall being interrogated about your duty to god during any of my experiences.  maybe i had it better than everyone else.


Penn and Teller's Bullshiat episode on the scouts discusses when religion started getting more important. I was in scouts in WV in the late 80s early 90s, I remember that we had meetings in church basements, but little specific religious intruction. YTMV, I guess is the lesson here.
 
2013-02-01 08:54:02 PM

BraveNewCheneyWorld: Mike Chewbacca: BraveNewCheneyWorld: Mike Chewbacca: BraveNewCheneyWorld: Boo hoo, not every organization on earth is something we qualify to join.  Let's whine until they change their rules because our feelings are hurt!

There's a difference between qualifying and "we don't let your kind in." But you knew that already.

Not really, you subscribe to their way of life, or you don't.  If you don't like it, don't whine like a little biatch and start your own club instead.

So how does a black person subscribe to a white person's way of life?

Skin color isn't a way of life.  I'd say nice try, but it really wasn't.


Neither is being gay, but you already knew that. Maybe you can prove it's a choice and a lifestyle by declaring yourself to be gay tomorrow and change every aspect of your behavior and way of life. Make sure you record it as proof, including all the gay sex you have.
 
2013-02-01 08:54:43 PM

Gyrfalcon: MrEricSir: lostcat: So, wait...What if you are a Muslim or Scientologist? Or does it only matter that you have faith in some sort of unprovable, all-powerful entity's existance?

Or what about faith in something that actually exists?  For example, I personally believe in the phone company.

Yeah, but do you have FAITH in the phone company? The only faith I have in the phone company is that they'll f*ck up my bill in as many ways as possible.


Well sure.  I guess I just have faith in them because otherwise I'm paying $80/month for nothing.
 
2013-02-01 08:56:27 PM

Seamus_Mc: cptjeff: Lionel Mandrake: fusillade762: Boy scouting is a religion.

Don't be silly.  AA is a religion.  Amway is a religion.  Freemasonry is a religion.

The Boy Scouts are a cult.  Like $cientology.

You have to get a little further in for the cult stuff. 1st class at least and voted in by your fellow scouts.

\Actually, the OA is the BSA's take on a secret society.
\\Lotsa fun.

I was a Lodge Chief in the OA and an Eagle Scout.  I went to catholic school for most of my life and could not have been more agnostic.  It hasnt been til recently that i have heard much about religion playing such a role in boy scouts.  i was involved from tiger cubs to eagle scouts.  I loved my time there and was as involved as could be, not one time can i remember anything overtly religious taking place.  There were occasionally prayers offered if you felt like listening at some of the larger events i attended (1993, 1997 nat'l Jamboree, 1994, 1996, 1998 NOAC) but no one did anything to force feed you anything, and i dont recall being interrogated about your duty to god during any of my experiences.  maybe i had it better than everyone else.


Then you got off easy.  I agree with everything you said and have had a similar experience in Scouting (OA, Eagle Scout), but they must not have asked you anything about your faith during your Eagle Board of Review, and from my experience, that's rare.  And pretty much the only time they ask, but again, from my experience, they usually do.

Had a friend in my troop who was in it all the way to the end, but couldn't lie during his Eagle Board. So he didn't get it.
 
2013-02-01 08:59:33 PM

BraveNewCheneyWorld: Mike Chewbacca: BraveNewCheneyWorld: Mike Chewbacca: BraveNewCheneyWorld: Boo hoo, not every organization on earth is something we qualify to join.  Let's whine until they change their rules because our feelings are hurt!

There's a difference between qualifying and "we don't let your kind in." But you knew that already.

Not really, you subscribe to their way of life, or you don't.  If you don't like it, don't whine like a little biatch and start your own club instead.

So how does a black person subscribe to a white person's way of life?

Skin color isn't a way of life.  I'd say nice try, but it really wasn't.


What "way of life" does a gay 10 year old have that's so different from a straight kid's life? He's just little kid who wants to join Scouts.
 
2013-02-01 09:02:19 PM

EvilEgg: They only really ask that you fake it.


It goes against the whole "trustworthy" thing if you're lying about being reverent.
 
2013-02-01 09:02:47 PM

Mike Chewbacca: BraveNewCheneyWorld: Mike Chewbacca: BraveNewCheneyWorld: Mike Chewbacca: BraveNewCheneyWorld: Boo hoo, not every organization on earth is something we qualify to join.  Let's whine until they change their rules because our feelings are hurt!

There's a difference between qualifying and "we don't let your kind in." But you knew that already.

Not really, you subscribe to their way of life, or you don't.  If you don't like it, don't whine like a little biatch and start your own club instead.

So how does a black person subscribe to a white person's way of life?

Skin color isn't a way of life.  I'd say nice try, but it really wasn't.

What "way of life" does a gay 10 year old have that's so different from a straight kid's life? He's just little kid who wants to join Scouts.


Hot pants, glitter, Liberace hairdo, sequined jackets, rolling around with hot, sweaty, perectly tanned and muscled men while taking the D
 
2013-02-01 09:04:13 PM

neppyman: When I was a scout, my troop just didn't care about any kind of discrimination.  We had atheists, gays, and people from all walks of life in our ranks (this was the early 90s).  Many troops still don't - part of the problem is that extremely conservative members of a particular religious group basically seized control of the highest-ranking decision-making central bureaucracy, and handed these sorts of "commandments" down from that high place.

The Boy Scouts - when you strip away that bigotry - is a good organization, promoting good values.  Ask anyone who's actually gone all the way to Eagle (or beyond - yay palms!); they'll tell you that the discrimination and such is entirely meaningless in comparison to the humility and sense of responsibility that it instills in you.

Unfortunately, it seems that the core, decision-making part of the organization is rotten.  It saddens me to think that it may not be salvageable, but I really don't see any way to do it, other than to wait for the bigots to die out (which is likely to take several more generations).

/ Eagle Scout.
// OA initiate, and yes, OA is a cult.


You had a bad experience.  It does not make you an expert on BSA cult issues.  OA is not a cult.  It's an extension of the BSA that affords some kids to take what the BSA offers to a different level.  Not everyone digs it.  Some take it for everything it's worth.  Yes, the BSA is, in concept, a good organization that allows kids to do things that most only dream of.  The OA is an extension of that.  Your bad experience only proves that your local lodge sucks, nothing more.  Just like everything else, it is what you make/allow it to be.

/Eagle, class of '88
//Vigil, class of '88
///Lodge chief for 3 years
///Not involved since '95
////slashies///
 
2013-02-01 09:04:54 PM

Krieghund: EvilEgg: They only really ask that you fake it.

It goes against the whole "trustworthy" thing if you're lying about being reverent.


Not if your faith is a subterfuge-based one.  Otherwise known as "all of them".  :-)
 
2013-02-01 09:05:07 PM

Ennuipoet: Any organization that needs me to profess belief in a higher power, whether it be scouts or Alcoholic Anonymous. is not something I want to be a part of any way.


Unless, they offer steep discounts at local bars, then I would be willing to lie about my disbelief, for a couple of rounds.


Do you believe in wholly spirits?
 
2013-02-01 09:06:19 PM

coolschool_dropout: neppyman: When I was a scout, my troop just didn't care about any kind of discrimination.  We had atheists, gays, and people from all walks of life in our ranks (this was the early 90s).  Many troops still don't - part of the problem is that extremely conservative members of a particular religious group basically seized control of the highest-ranking decision-making central bureaucracy, and handed these sorts of "commandments" down from that high place.

The Boy Scouts - when you strip away that bigotry - is a good organization, promoting good values.  Ask anyone who's actually gone all the way to Eagle (or beyond - yay palms!); they'll tell you that the discrimination and such is entirely meaningless in comparison to the humility and sense of responsibility that it instills in you.

Unfortunately, it seems that the core, decision-making part of the organization is rotten.  It saddens me to think that it may not be salvageable, but I really don't see any way to do it, other than to wait for the bigots to die out (which is likely to take several more generations).

/ Eagle Scout.
// OA initiate, and yes, OA is a cult.

You had a bad experience.  It does not make you an expert on BSA cult issues.  OA is not a cult.  It's an extension of the BSA that affords some kids to take what the BSA offers to a different level.  Not everyone digs it.  Some take it for everything it's worth.  Yes, the BSA is, in concept, a good organization that allows kids to do things that most only dream of.  The OA is an extension of that.  Your bad experience only proves that your local lodge sucks, nothing more.  Just like everything else, it is what you make/allow it to be.

/Eagle, class of '88
//Vigil, class of '88
///Lodge chief for 3 years
///Not involved since '95
////slashies///


This this and this.

//Eagle, class of '96
//Vigil, class of '98
///Lodge Adviser
//slashies!!!!!//
 
2013-02-01 09:06:32 PM

coeyagi: Then you got off easy. I agree with everything you said and have had a similar experience in Scouting (OA, Eagle Scout), but they must not have asked you anything about your faith during your Eagle Board of Review, and from my experience, that's rare. And pretty much the only time they ask, but again, from my experience, they usually do.

Had a friend in my troop who was in it all the way to the end, but couldn't lie during his Eagle Board. So he didn't get it.


What? I never got anything resembling that question. Especially not at my board of review.

I was in the scouts pretty recently, and never got asked about religion in any way. There was some preaching at us, but never any interrogation of my private belief.

Maybe you had a shiatty troop or council, or maybe mine was just really good about it, but I really doubt that your experience was typical.
 
2013-02-01 09:09:34 PM

cptjeff: coeyagi: Then you got off easy. I agree with everything you said and have had a similar experience in Scouting (OA, Eagle Scout), but they must not have asked you anything about your faith during your Eagle Board of Review, and from my experience, that's rare. And pretty much the only time they ask, but again, from my experience, they usually do.

Had a friend in my troop who was in it all the way to the end, but couldn't lie during his Eagle Board. So he didn't get it.

What? I never got anything resembling that question. Especially not at my board of review.

I was in the scouts pretty recently, and never got asked about religion in any way. There was some preaching at us, but never any interrogation of my private belief.

Maybe you had a shiatty troop or council, or maybe mine was just really good about it, but I really doubt that your experience was typical.


Like I said, we only got asked at our Board of Review for Eagle, and it is within their bounds to ask "Do you believe in God?"  That's part of the program and not discriminatory towards any one belief.  To act within your charter is not what I consider being "shiatty" at either the council or troop level.

//not saying I agree with it, but again, it's within their right to ask
///and I don't agree with it
 
2013-02-01 09:10:14 PM

cptjeff: I was in the scouts pretty recently, and never got asked about religion in any way. There was some preaching at us, but never any interrogation of my private belief.


One of the other boys told on me before I tried to join in Jr. High. I was denied for that.
 
2013-02-01 09:14:53 PM
What about heretics and Pagans?
 
2013-02-01 09:15:13 PM

coeyagi: cptjeff: Mrtraveler01: The Clean part of it really meant "morally clean" moreso than hygiene.

I did OA Trail Crew up at Northern Tier. Two sets of clothes, one wet for paddling and working (busting up rocks with a sledgehammer, that sort of thing), one for wearing in camp. Two weeks. Hygiene was not high on the priority list, but when you all smell equally awful...

Still, showers were nice at the end.

Then you must be thrilled by the new Jamboree facilities.  Sigh.


Are you on staff?  My dad is on the national staff this year again.
 
2013-02-01 09:15:16 PM

El_Frijole_Blanco: When I was a scout we had a retired army sergeant as our troop leader and we skipped the religious stuff, also we where in the ghetto part of town so we also skipped uniforms, he got the local national guard to donate equipment for camp outs and we all had a camo field jacket as our uniform. Yes the other scouts did fear us


Bahaha. Nice.

/GS. The Church refuses to sponsor it because Planned Parenthood does, but the troop I wound up joining was a bit wimpy. Nice people, just very little activity and more hanging out and bsing.
 
2013-02-01 09:18:34 PM

MrBentor: What about heretics and Pagans?


I've often wondered how the OA can exist in a slightly paradoxical mode that it is - it's part of the BSA, which has faith in its program, most of whose members are Christians, who called Native-Americans heathens or pagans, but yet the OA celebrates Native-American heritage though it falls short of celebrating its faith.

No one usually brings this up, but it's slightly quirky in that regard.
 
2013-02-01 09:19:10 PM

Seamus_Mc: coeyagi: cptjeff: Mrtraveler01: The Clean part of it really meant "morally clean" moreso than hygiene.

I did OA Trail Crew up at Northern Tier. Two sets of clothes, one wet for paddling and working (busting up rocks with a sledgehammer, that sort of thing), one for wearing in camp. Two weeks. Hygiene was not high on the priority list, but when you all smell equally awful...

Still, showers were nice at the end.

Then you must be thrilled by the new Jamboree facilities.  Sigh.

Are you on staff?  My dad is on the national staff this year again.


Yes.  On staff.
 
2013-02-01 09:19:19 PM
man, I had pretty much forgotten about my OA induction. Good to see lots of others out there.

I'm not sure where the crazy fundie stuff for bsa's leadership comes in, but we never saw it at the troop level in my day. Always had very cool, very down to earth (and thank god, very not-pervy) leaders for the troops i was in growing up.

In my teens scouts was a way to learn stuff when your dad was too lazy to teach you. Was a decent semi-supervised environment where we had just enough slack to sneak off and smoke cigs and drink those 3 Genesse light cans you stole from your parents... but enough structure that we learned skills that carried through life (there is a good reason an eagle gets to enlist as an e-3 in the military. A good scout is miles ahead of your average green soldier)

I had Ernest Hemmingway's nephew as my scout master in Michigan. Looked just like his uncle (old guy, big snowy beard). Name was Ernest Mainland... was in his troop for over a year before I found out his middle name was Hemmingway... suddenly explaining why most of our winter camping escapades were done on Hemmingway properties. (He wasn't keen on people making the connection.) I learned more survival skills in the Klondike Derbies than I did in all my military training combined.

Then I came to PA and had a native American for a troop master. Cool guy, knew every trick the woods had to offer and was down to earth with us kids. He sold me and my 14y/o friends a crap motorcycle for $50 as long as we stayed off the main roads... would show us how to roll a cigarette then tell you not to smoke (wink wink).

Lots of csb.
I'd hit a character limit if i csb'd about all the badass trips we took. The scout Olympics, young eagles (pilot training for kids, yes you get to fly, even open cockpit)... and then if you are a kid AND have money you can do insanely awesome stuff like Philmont (though the jamborees can be a bit more pomp and pain-in-the-ass than they are worth)

When I read articles about BSA going fundie crazy or troop leaders being pervy I feel terrible for the kids that get robbed out of what could have been one of their greatest life experiences.
 
2013-02-01 09:21:55 PM

coeyagi: cptjeff: coeyagi: Then you got off easy. I agree with everything you said and have had a similar experience in Scouting (OA, Eagle Scout), but they must not have asked you anything about your faith during your Eagle Board of Review, and from my experience, that's rare. And pretty much the only time they ask, but again, from my experience, they usually do.

Had a friend in my troop who was in it all the way to the end, but couldn't lie during his Eagle Board. So he didn't get it.

What? I never got anything resembling that question. Especially not at my board of review.

I was in the scouts pretty recently, and never got asked about religion in any way. There was some preaching at us, but never any interrogation of my private belief.

Maybe you had a shiatty troop or council, or maybe mine was just really good about it, but I really doubt that your experience was typical.

Like I said, we only got asked at our Board of Review for Eagle, and it is within their bounds to ask "Do you believe in God?"  That's part of the program and not discriminatory towards any one belief.  To act within your charter is not what I consider being "shiatty" at either the council or troop level.

//not saying I agree with it, but again, it's within their right to ask
///and I don't agree with it


I'm not saying it's not within their right- I am saying that it's a shiatty thing to judge on, regardless of what the rules say.

IMO, your council was shiatty if they asked. There are plenty of councils that don't ask, and don't really care, even if somebody turns you in. If anyone gets barred from an Eagle because of claims about religion, the people who run your council and the eagle board are shiatty examples of humanity.

In my council, the biggest focus was on getting your project past them. They'd been known to turn people down for skimping on the project, so you actually had to do something significant enough, and justify it as "worthy of an Eagle Scout" or whatever the wording on that was. A few questions about the general scouting experience too, but nowhere near as high pressure. I suppose they might flunk you if you said you hated it, but the only thing they really seemed to care about was the project.
 
2013-02-01 09:22:19 PM

MurphyMurphy: man, I had pretty much forgotten about my OA induction. Good to see lots of others out there.

I'm not sure where the crazy fundie stuff for bsa's leadership comes in, but we never saw it at the troop level in my day. Always had very cool, very down to earth (and thank god, very not-pervy) leaders for the troops i was in growing up.

In my teens scouts was a way to learn stuff when your dad was too lazy to teach you. Was a decent semi-supervised environment where we had just enough slack to sneak off and smoke cigs and drink those 3 Genesse light cans you stole from your parents... but enough structure that we learned skills that carried through life (there is a good reason an eagle gets to enlist as an e-3 in the military. A good scout is miles ahead of your average green soldier)

I had Ernest Hemmingway's nephew as my scout master in Michigan. Looked just like his uncle (old guy, big snowy beard). Name was Ernest Mainland... was in his troop for over a year before I found out his middle name was Hemmingway... suddenly explaining why most of our winter camping escapades were done on Hemmingway properties. (He wasn't keen on people making the connection.) I learned more survival skills in the Klondike Derbies than I did in all my military training combined.

Then I came to PA and had a native American for a troop master. Cool guy, knew every trick the woods had to offer and was down to earth with us kids. He sold me and my 14y/o friends a crap motorcycle for $50 as long as we stayed off the main roads... would show us how to roll a cigarette then tell you not to smoke (wink wink).

Lots of csb.
I'd hit a character limit if i csb'd about all the badass trips we took. The scout Olympics, young eagles (pilot training for kids, yes you get to fly, even open cockpit)... and then if you are a kid AND have money you can do insanely awesome stuff like Philmont (though the jamborees can be a bit more pomp and pain-in-the-ass than they are worth)

When I read articles about ...


This this and this.  Same deal here.  Father was Scoutmaster, the program was: fun first, learn stuff along the way.  Now I am a leader in the organization. It's great to see the organization becoming more inclusive - I had 3 friends who have been waiting to rejoin as an adult once they were welcome again.
 
2013-02-01 09:26:19 PM

cptjeff: coeyagi: cptjeff: coeyagi: Then you got off easy. I agree with everything you said and have had a similar experience in Scouting (OA, Eagle Scout), but they must not have asked you anything about your faith during your Eagle Board of Review, and from my experience, that's rare. And pretty much the only time they ask, but again, from my experience, they usually do.

Had a friend in my troop who was in it all the way to the end, but couldn't lie during his Eagle Board. So he didn't get it.

What? I never got anything resembling that question. Especially not at my board of review.

I was in the scouts pretty recently, and never got asked about religion in any way. There was some preaching at us, but never any interrogation of my private belief.

Maybe you had a shiatty troop or council, or maybe mine was just really good about it, but I really doubt that your experience was typical.

Like I said, we only got asked at our Board of Review for Eagle, and it is within their bounds to ask "Do you believe in God?"  That's part of the program and not discriminatory towards any one belief.  To act within your charter is not what I consider being "shiatty" at either the council or troop level.

//not saying I agree with it, but again, it's within their right to ask
///and I don't agree with it

I'm not saying it's not within their right- I am saying that it's a shiatty thing to judge on, regardless of what the rules say.

IMO, your council was shiatty if they asked. There are plenty of councils that don't ask, and don't really care, even if somebody turns you in. If anyone gets barred from an Eagle because of claims about religion, the people who run your council and the eagle board are shiatty examples of humanity.

In my council, the biggest focus was on getting your project past them. They'd been known to turn people down for skimping on the project, so you actually had to do something significant enough, and justify it as "worthy of an Eagle Scout" or whatever the wording o ...


You make it sound as if the faith question was the emphasis.  It wasn't.  Leadership, service and the project were  the emphasis. Trust me, I am far from being religious, but I guess it's just your perspective that it's shiatty. And for that, well, you're welcome to it.
 
2013-02-01 09:29:09 PM

coeyagi: You make it sound as if the faith question was the emphasis. It wasn't. Leadership, service and the project were the emphasis. Trust me, I am far from being religious, but I guess it's just your perspective that it's shiatty. And for that, well, you're welcome to it.


If they flunk somebody just on that, that's more than enough importance placed on the question for it to make a judgement as to the character of the people on that panel, isn't it?
 
2013-02-01 09:29:31 PM
Seamus_Mc: I was a Lodge Chief in the OA and an Eagle Scout. I went to catholic school for most of my life and could not have been more agnostic. It hasnt been til recently that i have heard much about religion playing such a role in boy scouts. i was involved from tiger cubs to eagle scouts. I loved my time there and was as involved as could be, not one time can i remember anything overtly religious taking place. There were occasionally prayers offered if you felt like listening at some of the larger events i attended (1993, 1997 nat'l Jamboree, 1994, 1996, 1998 NOAC) but no one did anything to force feed you anything, and i dont recall being interrogated about your duty to god during any of my experiences. maybe i had it better than everyone else.

coeyagi Then you got off easy. I agree with everything you said and have had a similar experience in Scouting (OA, Eagle Scout), but they must not have asked you anything about your faith during your Eagle Board of Review, and from my experience, that's rare. And pretty much the only time they ask, but again, from my experience, they usually do.

Had a friend in my troop who was in it all the way to the end, but couldn't lie during his Eagle Board. So he didn't get it.


Y'all are about twenty years younger than I am and from what I'm reading on this thread scouting evidently changed quite a bit in those years. At my Eagle Boards they asked nothing about religion at all, except in passing that I had an Ad Altare Dei badge. My scout troop was about 1/3 Jewish, and early on in my time in scouting somebody razzed one of them for not being able to eat ham and bacon at one meeting, so after that any mention of religion was off limits. I mean we mentioned it to each other, that some of them wore a star of David instead of crucifixes or that some of the parents and grandparents had those purple number tattoos, but it was really no big deal to any of us. We had several people who were not religious at all and went around openly saying stuff like "God is dead" or "Religion is the opiate of the masses" but nobody gave a damn about that either.

And nobody talked about gays at all, unless you count games of smear the queer.
 
2013-02-01 09:31:05 PM

sabreWulf07: cptjeff: You have to get a little further in for the cult stuff. 1st class at least and voted in by your fellow scouts.

\Actually, the OA is the BSA's take on a secret society.
\\Lotsa fun.

Shhhh!  Remember if anyone asks, WWW stands for "Wine, Whiskey & Women".


At least I can pronounce that.
 
2013-02-01 09:33:47 PM

varmitydog: My scout troop was about 1/3 Jewish, and early on in my time in scouting somebody razzed one of them for not being able to eat ham and bacon at one meeting, so after that any mention of religion was off limits.


I served as an Assistant Scoutmaster for a jewish troop on a trip once (run by an old friend of my Dad's, and they were doing the Boundary Waters without going through Northern Tier, and wanted somebody who'd been there before). There were meat nights and cheese nights, which was great for me and one of the scouts who didn't keep kosher, since we could get into the beef jerky on the cheese nights with no one able to do anything about it.
 
2013-02-01 09:37:55 PM

cptjeff: coeyagi: You make it sound as if the faith question was the emphasis. It wasn't. Leadership, service and the project were the emphasis. Trust me, I am far from being religious, but I guess it's just your perspective that it's shiatty. And for that, well, you're welcome to it.

If they flunk somebody just on that, that's more than enough importance placed on the question for it to make a judgement as to the character of the people on that panel, isn't it?


You can judge them one way, I choose not to.  If the program says you have to be reverent, and then you are revealed not to be, how can I judge the people asking the question or "flunking" the candidate for it?  Let's flip it - can't you just say "Wow they totally looked the other way, reverence must not actually mean anything."  So, then the question becomes, don't bother asking, right?  Well, then what's the point of having reverence in the program?  And trust me, my council is far from unique.  Just google how many scouts were denied Eagle at their board.  Tons.

I respect your perspective, but I am not going to condemn the folks asking the question.  However, am I in favor of them reevaluating the faith aspect of the program? ABSOLUTELY.  Until then, just ignoring an aspect of the program begs the question "what the hell is it there for then?"
 
2013-02-01 09:38:01 PM
GF named my left testicle thundercles:
Ii1172.photobucket.com 

I like your pic but was wondering when Jesus promised to end all wicked people.
 
2013-02-01 09:44:54 PM

madgonad: Actually, the Bible allows toleration for other faiths - however sinful behavior (they would stick homosexuality here) was always punished.


Hmm, Christ never said that. He always felt that "Love thy Neighbor" thing as very important.
The Bible, book of many books with many chapters, attempt to read it in context to get the best understanding.
 
2013-02-01 09:46:00 PM
I wonder if Buddhist churches sponsor Boy Scout troops? Or develop Eagle Scouts?

(and if you believe Buddhists need to believe in a supreme being, I suggest you investigate more)
 
2013-02-01 09:55:12 PM
To all the haters, of which there are many: The BSA is not and has never been perfect.  It will not make your snowflake into Jeremiah Johnson.
It will not make your boy homophobic.  It will not cause your son to question his sexuality: that happens because he has thoughts of his own, external of your control and desires.
It WILL afford him the  opportunity to make his own decisions about how he will conduct his life.
It gives, to those who decide to take advantage of, the chance to learn more about the outdoors than the average American will learn in their entire lifetime.  It can, with proper guidance, afford the education of leadership and self reliance that can be difficult to ascertain in our "modern world".

I don't like the gay/athiest policies.  I was deeply involved for many years and took advantage of as many opportunities as I could.  I see fault with the organization and it pains me to be replused by arcane views.  My experience was not hateful, or negative.  To the contrary, it was very positive and inclusive.  Two fellow Eagle Scouts from my troop late came out as gay.  We KNEW they were gay back in the day and didn't care!  All we cared about was keeping up with everyone else!  No one gave a shiat if you were "gay".  We only cared if you could handle camping in the freezing/dark/no water/"what's that crazy sound" shiat.  If you can't handle camping in the woods and taking care of yourself, we'll help you learn, but you better learn quick!

And this was in NC- not exactly the bed of tolerance in the "adult" world.

Given the right circumstances, the BSA and OA can be fantastic experiences for kids.  But, like anything else, it can also suck.

Many of my gay friends had their first "gay" experiences in a BSA event.  Surprise!  That won't change.  Many of the fears from BSA adults are about pedophilia; what they fail to realize or admit is the fact that the majority of pedophiles consider themselves to be heterosexual.  For being such fastidious individuals that take things very factual, many BSA leaders tend to ignore facts that are contradictory to their preconceived notions.  This is disappointing.  People can be so smart yet so dumb.

I'm really happy the BSA is considering dropping the blanket policy of banning gays.  I don't think it will really change much in the real world, since the policy will leave the decisions to the local councils and units.  But it's a step in the right direction.  It does give me hope to someday return to the organization that once gave me hope in mankind when I had none.  But until I find a local unit that accepts people on the sole merit of being "good" and not because they are not "gay", I will continue my lonely watch from the sidelines.

Hating on the BSA is quite fashionable.  I always hated "fashion" and all it portends.

/Eagle
//Vigil
//Lodge and Section Chief
///Summer camp for 9 seasons
//more slashies//soapboxes///
 
2013-02-01 09:57:02 PM

letrole: Not collecting sporting stamps is a religious hobby for balding homosexuals.


There you are! Took your damn time, didn't you.
 
2013-02-01 09:59:51 PM

coeyagi: cptjeff: coeyagi: You make it sound as if the faith question was the emphasis. It wasn't. Leadership, service and the project were the emphasis. Trust me, I am far from being religious, but I guess it's just your perspective that it's shiatty. And for that, well, you're welcome to it.

If they flunk somebody just on that, that's more than enough importance placed on the question for it to make a judgement as to the character of the people on that panel, isn't it?

You can judge them one way, I choose not to.  If the program says you have to be reverent, and then you are revealed not to be, how can I judge the people asking the question or "flunking" the candidate for it?  Let's flip it - can't you just say "Wow they totally looked the other way, reverence must not actually mean anything."  So, then the question becomes, don't bother asking, right?  Well, then what's the point of having reverence in the program?  And trust me, my council is far from unique.  Just google how many scouts were denied Eagle at their board.  Tons.

I respect your perspective, but I am not going to condemn the folks asking the question.  However, am I in favor of them reevaluating the faith aspect of the program? ABSOLUTELY.  Until then, just ignoring an aspect of the program begs the question "what the hell is it there for then?"


Why does "reverent" have to imply faith in a diety? The word has a much broader meaning than that. I might have reverence for nature, for example. The definition is just "showing a deep and solemn respect". It is about being humbled by your smallness and lack of importance next to the power and vastness of the universe. One can be the most ardent atheist on the planet and have that appreciation.

I choose to judge people when they make a choice to be dicks about their faith. In my book, active enforcement of an unjust rule when it's just as simple to not even bother is just as large an evil as the creation of the rule in the first place. In looking at Jim Crow, I choose to judge those local elections officials who enforced the discriminatory rules just as much as I judge those who put them on the books in the first place. We all make choices, and those people on the board made the choice to act in a way that I consider to be morally corrupt.

Let me put it this way: If you were sitting on that panel, would you choose to ask that question? Because not asking it is certainly an option for the folks on the other side o the desk. I wasn't asked it, and never heard of anyone getting that question, and I knew a couple atheist scouts. Maybe they lied, but I suspect I would have at least heard some griping about it. So I'm asking you- if you're faced with that choice, do you ask that question?
 
2013-02-01 10:02:26 PM

cptjeff: coeyagi: cptjeff: coeyagi: You make it sound as if the faith question was the emphasis. It wasn't. Leadership, service and the project were the emphasis. Trust me, I am far from being religious, but I guess it's just your perspective that it's shiatty. And for that, well, you're welcome to it.

If they flunk somebody just on that, that's more than enough importance placed on the question for it to make a judgement as to the character of the people on that panel, isn't it?

You can judge them one way, I choose not to.  If the program says you have to be reverent, and then you are revealed not to be, how can I judge the people asking the question or "flunking" the candidate for it?  Let's flip it - can't you just say "Wow they totally looked the other way, reverence must not actually mean anything."  So, then the question becomes, don't bother asking, right?  Well, then what's the point of having reverence in the program?  And trust me, my council is far from unique.  Just google how many scouts were denied Eagle at their board.  Tons.

I respect your perspective, but I am not going to condemn the folks asking the question.  However, am I in favor of them reevaluating the faith aspect of the program? ABSOLUTELY.  Until then, just ignoring an aspect of the program begs the question "what the hell is it there for then?"

Why does "reverent" have to imply faith in a diety? The word has a much broader meaning than that. I might have reverence for nature, for example. The definition is just "showing a deep and solemn respect". It is about being humbled by your smallness and lack of importance next to the power and vastness of the universe. One can be the most ardent atheist on the planet and have that appreciation.

I choose to judge people when they make a choice to be dicks about their faith. In my book, active enforcement of an unjust rule when it's just as simple to not even bother is just as large an evil as the creation of the rule in the first place. In looking at J ...


No, I don't ask the question.  But I don't judge those who do.  But again, you're framing this argument from the standpoint that my council is the aberration.  It is not. Just google it.
 
2013-02-01 10:05:31 PM

MurphyMurphy: and then if you are a kid AND have money you can do insanely awesome stuff like Philmont


Went in 88.

Every summer we did standard Summer camp, and High Adventure.  Usually a week backpacking in the Rockies.
 
2013-02-01 10:08:00 PM

Mike Chewbacca: It's funny that the Girl Scouts don't have this same issue. They let in everyone, because they want ALL girls to grow to be strong women, not just the "right" girls. Of course, that might be because the Mormons haven't taken over GSUSA, likely because Mormons don't want strong women.


That is why Girl Scouts is awesome and why I always support Girl Scout fundraisers and not Boy Scouts.

That said, it sounds like a lot of you guys had really great Boy Scout experiences and as long as the leader wasn't a wacko/hater I would definitely let my kids join if they wanted.
 
2013-02-01 10:08:30 PM
cptjeff: In my council, the biggest focus was on getting your project past them. They'd been known to turn people down for skimping on the project, so you actually had to do something significant enough, and justify it as "worthy of an Eagle Scout" or whatever the wording on that was. A few questions about the general scouting experience too, but nowhere near as high pressure. I suppose they might flunk you if you said you hated it, but the only thing they really seemed to care about was the project.

That was my experience, too. Go over your awards, a couple of questions about what you learned about leadership being a patrol leader, tie three knots, decipher some morse code and then the other 90% of the time was making sure you actually did the work on your Eagle project.

I served as an Assistant Scoutmaster for a jewish troop on a trip once (run by an old friend of my Dad's, and they were doing the Boundary Waters without going through Northern Tier, and wanted somebody who'd been there before). There were meat nights and cheese nights, which was great for me and one of the scouts who didn't keep kosher, since we could get into the beef jerky on the cheese nights with no one able to do anything about it.

We had potluck suppers for our honor courts, with all the Jewish ladies attempting to outdo each other with their Jewish dishes. We also had a lot of Italian ladies doing the same thing. I always looked forward to those nights. They were all VERY serious about their food.
 
2013-02-01 10:11:24 PM

spidermilk: Mike Chewbacca: It's funny that the Girl Scouts don't have this same issue. They let in everyone, because they want ALL girls to grow to be strong women, not just the "right" girls. Of course, that might be because the Mormons haven't taken over GSUSA, likely because Mormons don't want strong women.

That is why Girl Scouts is awesome and why I always support Girl Scout fundraisers and not Boy Scouts.

That said, it sounds like a lot of you guys had really great Boy Scout experiences and as long as the leader wasn't a wacko/hater I would definitely let my kids join if they wanted.


You'd better keep supporting the Girls Scouts, they're bleeding numbers faster than the Boy Scouts (because despite their awesome inclusivity, their program and red tape sucks in comparison.  So many leaders won't do anything for the Girls Scouts because of the hoops they gotta jump through to do anything, which feeds into the crappiness of the program).

But I vote we take a page out of the World's book and merge the organizations. There are I think 2 Scouting organizations in the world that aren't coed - the U.S. and the Saudi Arabia.  Yes, Saudi Arabia.
 
2013-02-01 10:13:03 PM
coolschool_dropout:
You had a bad experience.  It does not make you an expert on BSA cult issues.  OA is not a cult.  It's an extension of the BSA that affords some kids to take what the BSA offers to a different level.  Not everyone digs it.  Some take it for everything it's worth.  Yes, the BSA is, in concept, a good organization that allows kids to do things that most only dream of.  The OA is an extension of that.  Your bad experience only proves that your local lodge sucks, nothing more.  Just like everything else, it is what you make/allow it to be.

I'm really not sure where you get that I had a "bad experience from", because I honestly loved my time in the Scouts. I was being a little silly about the OA, because the initiation is, honestly, a bit silly (is this where I claim Poe's Law?).  I never did much with the OA lodge because I didn't have the time, not because they were bad - my own troop activities, plus high school sports, kept me plenty busy.

I also had the distinct pleasure of working at Philmont for two summers ('99 and '00) while I was in college.

I (like many other Scouts in this thread) have been saddened at the direction that the "management" has taken lately.  But I have very fond memories of my own experiences, and hope that I can find a troop for my own children that pushes aside bigotry and prejudice and focuses on the core of what it means to actually be a Scout.
 
2013-02-01 10:13:13 PM
wtf boy scouts?  why can't you be more like the girl scouts?  i was a godless heathen and the only girl in our troop that didn't come out 100% lesbian.  there were no questions asked regarding the many awkward "first experiences" in the tents and satanic rites during camp outs.

/currently rocking a boy scout shirt
 
2013-02-01 10:13:38 PM

coeyagi: No, I don't ask the question. But I don't judge those who do. But again, you're framing this argument from the standpoint that my council is the aberration. It is not. Just google it.


I did make that presumption, but it's ancillary to the argument. One can be morally bankrupt and also be in the majority.

Also, your sample is rather biased. People are going to scream about it when something does happen, but you won't hear anything when something doesn't happen. When things go as planned, they don't make the news. You might have half a million eagle boards and they only ask they question in 10, but you won't hear about the 499,990, you'll hear about the 10.

So yes, you may find other examples, but without any information on how often it occurs as a percentage of overall eagle boards, the number is utterly meaningless. A .1% incident rate would still give you a bunch of anecdotes to draw from, it's a big country and a big organization.
 
2013-02-01 10:14:24 PM

VibroCount: I wonder if Buddhist churches sponsor Boy Scout troops? Or develop Eagle Scouts?

(and if you believe Buddhists need to believe in a supreme being, I suggest you investigate more)


I know that there is a Buddhist badge
 
2013-02-01 10:15:17 PM
I bet those guys can really move some Trail's End
 
2013-02-01 10:15:31 PM

jaybeezey: Do gays even like carving race cars out of blocks of wood?


Yeah, but they usually carve Miatas. unless they are girls, in which case it's Subarus.
 
2013-02-01 10:16:05 PM

cptjeff: coeyagi: No, I don't ask the question. But I don't judge those who do. But again, you're framing this argument from the standpoint that my council is the aberration. It is not. Just google it.

I did make that presumption, but it's ancillary to the argument. One can be morally bankrupt and also be in the majority.

Also, your sample is rather biased. People are going to scream about it when something does happen, but you won't hear anything when something doesn't happen. When things go as planned, they don't make the news. You might have half a million eagle boards and they only ask they question in 10, but you won't hear about the 499,990, you'll hear about the 10.

So yes, you may find other examples, but without any information on how often it occurs as a percentage of overall eagle boards, the number is utterly meaningless. A .1% incident rate would still give you a bunch of anecdotes to draw from, it's a big country and a big organization.


And you would have the same problem, my friend, of anecdotal evidence.
 
2013-02-01 10:17:38 PM
National Council has spouted shiat forever (ya'll quit masturbating, you hear!!).  Local Councils rule and, Scoutmasters (volunteers) of troops that make up the local councils have to rely on volunteer parents. If the only parents that are always available for hikes/camp-outs are stone cold atheists?  99% of the time?  `Glad to have you, along!'  (sure, the occasional bible beater SM might be saying, under breath, `you'll be wishing you had something to pray to when that ice storm hits at 03:00 Saturday morning).

/building towers/bridges/portaging canoes through the back-of-beyond - excellent org
//drinking any particular brand of kool aide?  there were a few `true believers'  the rest of us were cynics
 
2013-02-01 10:18:17 PM

xen0blue: I can't believe they are letting gays in before atheists. Both are actually against what's the bible, but the bible actually singles homosexuality out by being specifically bad pointing out it's a perversion by illustrating Sodom and Gomorrah.


Because gays are far better at pissing and moaning when the rest of the country isn't coddling them.
 
2013-02-01 10:26:48 PM

madgonad: In the American social order, the only thing lower than atheists are pedophiles.
[www.theblaze.com image 530x361]


That makes sense since most atheists are pedophiles too.
 
2013-02-01 10:30:28 PM

EvilEgg: They only really ask that you fake it.


In their defense, it's also all that real religions ask, so they aren't really lowering the bar.
 
2013-02-01 10:36:35 PM
 It will be OK if the Scout Leader say's a few "Hail Mary's" with the kid, then lubes him up and jabs it in your sons a**.
 
2013-02-01 10:39:19 PM

neppyman: coolschool_dropout:
You had a bad experience.  It does not make you an expert on BSA cult issues.  OA is not a cult.  It's an extension of the BSA that affords some kids to take what the BSA offers to a different level.  Not everyone digs it.  Some take it for everything it's worth.  Yes, the BSA is, in concept, a good organization that allows kids to do things that most only dream of.  The OA is an extension of that.  Your bad experience only proves that your local lodge sucks, nothing more.  Just like everything else, it is what you make/allow it to be.

I'm really not sure where you get that I had a "bad experience from", because I honestly loved my time in the Scouts. I was being a little silly about the OA, because the initiation is, honestly, a bit silly (is this where I claim Poe's Law?).  I never did much with the OA lodge because I didn't have the time, not because they were bad - my own troop activities, plus high school sports, kept me plenty busy.

I also had the distinct pleasure of working at Philmont for two summers ('99 and '00) while I was in college.

I (like many other Scouts in this thread) have been saddened at the direction that the "management" has taken lately.  But I have very fond memories of my own experiences, and hope that I can find a troop for my own children that pushes aside bigotry and prejudice and focuses on the core of what it means to actually be a Scout.


I said you "had a bad experience" because you stated the OA is  "cult" and perhaps my assumption was false.  I do not think the OA is a cult.  I also had many experiences that were positive.  Congrats on the Philmont staff( I went in 1988).  I gave up the chance at Philmont staff and instead worked Summer Camp staff at 2 camps for 9 seasons.  Tilt of my hat to you and apologies to any offending assumptions.
I am also saddened at the BSA's policy.  But as disapproving as I am with their policies, I still believe their program offers many positives for kids who choose to take the opportunities.  It's not perfect, but it's better than most.  If I had a kid, I'd put him through it, if he chose that path.
I don't think the policy change will actually make that much difference on the "real world" level, but one can hope, right?
 
2013-02-01 10:39:51 PM

TerminalEchoes: xen0blue: I can't believe they are letting gays in before atheists. Both are actually against what's the bible, but the bible actually singles homosexuality out by being specifically bad pointing out it's a perversion by illustrating Sodom and Gomorrah.

Because gays are far better at pissing and moaning when the rest of the country isn't coddling them.


Yeah, but they look fabulous doing it.

/dirty heathen atheist
 
2013-02-01 10:41:50 PM

TheRealist II: Just another group of individuals who just want to move on in and hijack someone elses  else'sgroup due to being to too lazy and incompetent to create a group of theretheir own.


If you're not willing to write English, why don't you go back where you came from?
 
2013-02-01 10:42:08 PM

TerminalEchoes: xen0blue: I can't believe they are letting gays in before atheists. Both are actually against what's the bible, but the bible actually singles homosexuality out by being specifically bad pointing out it's a perversion by illustrating Sodom and Gomorrah.

Because gays are far better at pissing and moaning when the rest of the country isn't coddling them.


Because treating them as human beings and American citizens = "coddling" them. Did you also get annoyed at those uppity negroes and women wanting to be treated equally?
 
2013-02-01 10:45:46 PM
Is atheism correlated to any weird crimes or mental illnesses?
Always seems to be the fundamentalists who have issues.
 
2013-02-01 10:45:51 PM
It won't be long until people into pedophilia and bestiality will be asking for rights.

I'm just gonna walk away when someone says, "What's wrong with somebody choosing to marry their dog?" or "Why should he (50 year old man) not have his right to marry a 12 year old girl he loves?"
 
2013-02-01 10:47:43 PM
coolschool_dropout:
I said you "had a bad experience" because you stated the OA is  "cult" and perhaps my assumption was false.  I do not think the OA is a cult.  I also had many experiences that were positive.  Congrats on the Philmont staff( I went in 1988).  I gave up the chance at Philmont staff and instead worked Summer Camp staff at 2 camps for 9 seasons.  Tilt of my hat to you and apologies to any offending assumptions.
I am also saddened at the BSA's policy.  But as disapproving as I am with their policies, I still believe their program offers many positives for kids who
 choose to take the opportunities.  It's not perfect, but it's better than most.  If I had a kid, I'd put him through it, if he chose that path.
I don't think the policy change will actually make that much difference on the "real world" level, but one can hope, right?


The OA ceremonies certainly do give it an air of mystery, but no, it's not really a "cult" in the dictionary sense of the word.

And no worries; it's very difficult to properly convey sarcasm and humor in a text media.

I think what a lot of people who haven't been involved in the BSA fail to realize (but thankfully, this thread is demonstrating it quite clearly) is that the rank-and-file members just don't care about things like whether or not somebody is an atheist or gay.  There are some troops (primarily in the Bible Belt) that do, but most of them are more concerned about improving the moral fiber and life skills of their members than worrying whether or not that member meets the criteria of orthodoxy dictated from the higher ups - many of whom were never Boy Scouts themselves, to begin with.

I would like to see the organization embrace this change at a national level, but I'll settle (for now) from working from within and finding a troop that doesn't care, individually.
 
2013-02-01 10:48:48 PM
one more time: What's stopping you people from forming Gays and Lesbian Scouts of America? sad truth in boy Boy and girl Scouts is there are damn few parents & guardians that want to get involved with their children's activities. Start your own thing, don't wait for some folks you don't even care for to ask you to join their reindeer games, you idiots.
 
2013-02-01 10:50:32 PM

MaudlinMutantMollusk: A Scout is:

Trustworthy,Loyal,Helpful,Friendly,Courteous,Kind,Obedient,Cheerful, Thrifty,Brave,Clean,and Reverent. I never could get more than 11 out of 12


I added a little bit to the reverent part when I was scout under my breath...."reverent towards nature"
 
2013-02-01 10:52:17 PM

netgamer7k: It won't be long until people into pedophilia and bestiality will be asking for rights.

I'm just gonna walk away when someone says, "What's wrong with somebody choosing to marry their dog?" or "Why should he (50 year old man) not have his right to marry a 12 year old girl he loves?"


Ah, the slippery slope fallacy. How droll.

KrispyKritter: one more time: What's stopping you people from forming Gays and Lesbian Scouts of America? sad truth in boy Boy and girl Scouts is there are damn few parents & guardians that want to get involved with their children's activities. Start your own thing, don't wait for some folks you don't even care for to ask you to join their reindeer games, you idiots.


Ah, separate but equal. How droll.
 
2013-02-01 10:52:18 PM

netgamer7k: "Why should he (50 year old man) not have his right to marry a 12 year old girl he loves?"


Welcome to Islam
 
2013-02-01 11:15:35 PM

Lionel Mandrake: fusillade762: Boy scouting is a religion.

Don't be silly.  AA is a religion.  Amway is a religion.  Freemasonry is a religion.

The Boy Scouts are a cult.  Like $cientology.


If you dont believe this, and you were in scouts, you probably need to find a shrink and get yourself deprogrammed.

/ horrible, HORRIBLE experiences..
// No not that, you perverts.
 
2013-02-01 11:20:54 PM
This just in: most atheists can fake religion better than the religious can practice it.
 
2013-02-01 11:21:28 PM

I sound fat: Lionel Mandrake: fusillade762: Boy scouting is a religion.

Don't be silly.  AA is a religion.  Amway is a religion.  Freemasonry is a religion.

The Boy Scouts are a cult.  Like $cientology.

If you dont believe this, and you were in scouts, you probably need to find a shrink and get yourself deprogrammed.

/ horrible, HORRIBLE experiences..
// No not that, you perverts.


^^^^^^ If you don't take my anecdotal evidence as proof of all experiences, you probably need to find a shrink and get yourself deprogrammed.
 
2013-02-01 11:23:39 PM

fifthhorseman: This just in: most atheists can fake religion better than the religious can practice it.


I see that, and raise you "This just in: our country is not as religious as some would have you believe it is. AKA Is it worth fighting your parents two hours a week about one hour a week of utter boredom?"
 
2013-02-01 11:24:19 PM

Keizer_Ghidorah: TerminalEchoes: xen0blue: I can't believe they are letting gays in before atheists. Both are actually against what's the bible, but the bible actually singles homosexuality out by being specifically bad pointing out it's a perversion by illustrating Sodom and Gomorrah.

Because gays are far better at pissing and moaning when the rest of the country isn't coddling them.

Because treating them as human beings and American citizens = "coddling" them. Did you also get annoyed at those uppity negroes and women wanting to be treated equally?


Uh, no. But nice try. I'm talking about X person saying "homosexuality is against my beliefs" and the gay community morphs that into "X person hates gay people and wants to see them slaughtered," then they proceed to demonstrate and riot until their butthurt little hinies get kissed and powdered.
 
2013-02-01 11:27:52 PM

FloydA: WTF Indeed: fusillade762: Boy scouting is a religion.

No it's not. Don't be an ass.

Being an ass is a religion.


Failing to grasp obvious sarcasm is... ahh, the hell with it.
 
2013-02-01 11:30:21 PM

jaybeezey: Do gays even like carving race cars out of blocks of wood?


I think they'd probably make end tables.
 
2013-02-01 11:31:08 PM
no Irish?

/late, damn it
 
2013-02-01 11:35:13 PM

TerminalEchoes: Keizer_Ghidorah: TerminalEchoes: xen0blue: I can't believe they are letting gays in before atheists. Both are actually against what's the bible, but the bible actually singles homosexuality out by being specifically bad pointing out it's a perversion by illustrating Sodom and Gomorrah.

Because gays are far better at pissing and moaning when the rest of the country isn't coddling them.

Because treating them as human beings and American citizens = "coddling" them. Did you also get annoyed at those uppity negroes and women wanting to be treated equally?

Uh, no. But nice try. I'm talking about X person saying "homosexuality is against my beliefs" and the gay community morphs that into "X person hates gay people and wants to see them slaughtered," then they proceed to demonstrate and riot until their butthurt little hinies get kissed and powdered.


I've yet to see any gay riots. I've seen many gays discriminated against, tormented, and murdered, though. Sorry that it annoys you that they're a bit upset over that, along with the decades of being treated as sub-human third-class citizens for the sole reason of loving people with the same gonads. Maybe if we stop doing that, they'll stop making you shiat your pants in annoyance over their wanting to not be demonized and hated for who they love.
 
2013-02-01 11:35:17 PM

neppyman: coolschool_dropout:
I said you "had a bad experience" because you stated the OA is  "cult" and perhaps my assumption was false.  I do not think the OA is a cult.  I also had many experiences that were positive.  Congrats on the Philmont staff( I went in 1988).  I gave up the chance at Philmont staff and instead worked Summer Camp staff at 2 camps for 9 seasons.  Tilt of my hat to you and apologies to any offending assumptions.
I am also saddened at the BSA's policy.  But as disapproving as I am with their policies, I still believe their program offers many positives for kids who choose to take the opportunities.  It's not perfect, but it's better than most.  If I had a kid, I'd put him through it, if he chose that path.
I don't think the policy change will actually make that much difference on the "real world" level, but one can hope, right?

The OA ceremonies certainly do give it an air of mystery, but no, it's not really a "cult" in the dictionary sense of the word.

And no worries; it's very difficult to properly convey sarcasm and humor in a text media.

I think what a lot of people who haven't been involved in the BSA fail to realize (but thankfully, this thread is demonstrating it quite clearly) is that the rank-and-file members just don't care about things like whether or not somebody is an atheist or gay.  There are some troops (primarily in the Bible Belt) that do, but most of them are more concerned about improving the moral fiber and life skills of their members than worrying whether or not that member meets the criteria of orthodoxy dictated from the higher ups - many of whom were never Boy Scouts themselves, to begin with.

I would like to see the organization embrace this change at a national level, but I'll settle (for now) from working from within and finding a troop that doesn't care, individually.


I can dig it.  I would enjoy getting involved again on some level too.   But living in NC, it may be hard to find/create a unit with such inclusive compassion.  I have been disappointed by posts of old-school friends opposing the proposed policy change.  This is most disappointing, but not unexpected nor surprising.  I live in NC- the crossroads of Southern "traditional" ignorance and "tasteful" Northern influence.  Some thought patterns die hard.  The nicest people can turn out to be the most ignorant/hateful.   It's most perplexing.
 
2013-02-01 11:37:08 PM

Oznog: [img2.etsystatic.com image 850x826]


There's you answer right there.


WANT!
 
2013-02-01 11:46:12 PM

coolschool_dropout: neppyman: coolschool_dropout:
I said you "had a bad experience" because you stated the OA is  "cult" and perhaps my assumption was false.  I do not think the OA is a cult.  I also had many experiences that were positive.  Congrats on the Philmont staff( I went in 1988).  I gave up the chance at Philmont staff and instead worked Summer Camp staff at 2 camps for 9 seasons.  Tilt of my hat to you and apologies to any offending assumptions.
I am also saddened at the BSA's policy.  But as disapproving as I am with their policies, I still believe their program offers many positives for kids who choose to take the opportunities.  It's not perfect, but it's better than most.  If I had a kid, I'd put him through it, if he chose that path.
I don't think the policy change will actually make that much difference on the "real world" level, but one can hope, right?

The OA ceremonies certainly do give it an air of mystery, but no, it's not really a "cult" in the dictionary sense of the word.

And no worries; it's very difficult to properly convey sarcasm and humor in a text media.

I think what a lot of people who haven't been involved in the BSA fail to realize (but thankfully, this thread is demonstrating it quite clearly) is that the rank-and-file members just don't care about things like whether or not somebody is an atheist or gay.  There are some troops (primarily in the Bible Belt) that do, but most of them are more concerned about improving the moral fiber and life skills of their members than worrying whether or not that member meets the criteria of orthodoxy dictated from the higher ups - many of whom were never Boy Scouts themselves, to begin with.

I would like to see the organization embrace this change at a national level, but I'll settle (for now) from working from within and finding a troop that doesn't care, individually.

I can dig it.  I would enjoy getting involved again on some level too.   But living in NC, it may be hard to find/create a unit with such incl ...


You shouldn't have too hard a time at any of the larger cities in NC. For that matter, there are a couple retired hippie encampments (Carrboro/Chapel Hill, Asheville) where you should have a pretty easy time.
 
2013-02-02 12:01:19 AM
The very first commandment is, "You shall have no other gods before me."  Yet, the Boy Scouts of America allow Hindus to join and to hold positions of leadership.  Seems that the Boy Scouts, like many so-called christians, are fond of picking and choosing those parts of the bible that are convenient to their agenda and ignore those parts that are inconvenient.
 
2013-02-02 12:02:50 AM

Rreal: xen0blue: I can't believe they are letting gays in before atheists. Both are actually against what's the bible, but the bible actually singles homosexuality out by being specifically bad pointing out it's a perversion by illustrating Sodom and Gomorrah.

to be precise, Sodom and Gomorrah wasn't specifically about homosexuality but wickedness in general and being rude to guests in specific.   If you read the story,Lot tried to placate the crowd by offering to let them bone the shiat out of his daughters but they refused.

Still not about rape, and, yeah, Lot's a bit of a chode here too,


They refused and demanded he send out his male guests.

But Sodom and Gomorrah was about "every kind of wickedness" IIRC, not specifically homosexuality.  It is about judgment for impenitent sin--as in, when one continually engages in behavior that they know to be wrong despite having had many opportunities to change the behavior.

Here's the specific quote:

Now the two angels came to Sodom in the evening, and Lot was sitting in the gate of Sodom. When Lot saw them, he rose to meet them, and he bowed himself with his face toward the ground. 2And he said, "Here now, my lords, please turn in to your servant's house and spend the night, and wash your feet; then you may rise early and go on your way."
And they said, "No, but we will spend the night in the open square."
3But he insisted strongly; so they turned in to him and entered his house. Then he made them a feast, and baked unleavened bread, and they ate.
4Now before they lay down, the men of the city, the men of Sodom, both old and young, all the people from every quarter, surrounded the house. 5And they called to Lot and said to him, "Where are the men who came to you tonight? Bring them out to us that we may know them carnally."
6So Lot went out to them through the doorway, shut the door behind him, 7and said, "Please, my brethren, do not do so wickedly! 8See now, I have two daughters who have not known a man; please, let me bring them out to you, and you may do to them as you wish; only do nothing to these men, since this is the reason they have come under the shadow of my roof."
9And they said, "Stand back!" Then they said, "This one came in to stay here, and he keeps acting as a judge; now we will deal worse with you than with them.

Lot repeatedly warned the Sodomites regarding their behavior--which was not limited to sexual relations with other men in this single instance, but which some sources say included bestiality and other depravities far beyond mere homosexuality. Reading chapter 18, you see that the reference is that the "sin is very grave" and that the outcry against Sodom and Gomorrah (and the two other cities destroyed of the 5 city metropolis area) was "very great." This is not a term generally used in the Old Testament or the New for simple homosexuality, even on a grand scale. If it were, Rome and Greece would have likewise been utterly destroyed from the face of the earth and from history (except as a warning). They were not, and Greco-Roman influence is still with us even today. Going back father to Chapter 14, you see that it is not Abraham or Lot's first interaction with Sodom and Gomorrah: Lot was taken captive years earlier, and Abraham (then Abram) rescued both him and the men and goods of the King of Sodom and returned them to the King of Sodom, taking nothing for himself. Still, the King of Sodom allowed Lot, who, by sitting in the gate, was recognized as one of the leaders of the city (generally the custom in ancient times), to be treated this way and did nothing to stop or prevent it.

TL;DR--What happened in Sodom and Gomorrah was not about homosexuality or hospitality. It went much, much deeper. There was absolute corruption and evil throughout the region, which centered on Sodom, but spread to 4 of the 5 cities (4 cities were destroyed, not just two), of which Sodom was the major metropolis. Think of DC-Annapolis-Baltimore type region... Sodom would have been the power center, the DC, of the region, with the other cities taking on the Annapolis, Baltimore, Arlington, Alexandria-type roles.
 
2013-02-02 12:05:56 AM

neppyman: I think what a lot of people who haven't been involved in the BSA fail to realize (but thankfully, this thread is demonstrating it quite clearly) is that the rank-and-file members just don't care about things like whether or not somebody is an atheist or gay. There are some troops (primarily in the Bible Belt) that do, but most of them are more concerned about improving the moral fiber and life skills of their members than worrying whether or not that member meets the criteria of orthodoxy dictated from the higher ups - many of whom were never Boy Scouts themselves, to begin with.


This.  I was assistant scoutmaster of a troop in New York that was sponsored by a catholic church, and the only time we talked about god was while saying the scout oath. Our main concern was learning the various scout skills and going camping.  Even when the priest came to visit the troops he never talked about god.  Sure, some times he might say a prayer, but he was a former scout himself and would usually help in the teaching of whatever it was we were doing that week. 

On a funny side note, I spent one summer working at a camp in Massachusetts, and one of the troops was sponsored by a catholic church but they would not let the local priest go camping with them.  Turns out he was a bit of a rain god!  The troop actually had records going back about 5 years and whenever the priest went on a campout with them it rained about 75% of the time.  And sure enough, the one day he visited the camp it rained!
 
2013-02-02 12:07:09 AM

Mock26: The very first commandment is, "You shall have no other gods before me."  Yet, the Boy Scouts of America allow Hindus to join and to hold positions of leadership.  Seems that the Boy Scouts, like many so-called christians, are fond of picking and choosing those parts of the bible that are convenient to their agenda and ignore those parts that are inconvenient.


Wow, a new breed of ignorance reveals itself.  It's not the Boy Scouts of Jesus, or were you just hoping for a few bites?
 
2013-02-02 12:08:14 AM

Keizer_Ghidorah: TerminalEchoes: Keizer_Ghidorah: TerminalEchoes: xen0blue: I can't believe they are letting gays in before atheists. Both are actually against what's the bible, but the bible actually singles homosexuality out by being specifically bad pointing out it's a perversion by illustrating Sodom and Gomorrah.

Because gays are far better at pissing and moaning when the rest of the country isn't coddling them.

Because treating them as human beings and American citizens = "coddling" them. Did you also get annoyed at those uppity negroes and women wanting to be treated equally?

Uh, no. But nice try. I'm talking about X person saying "homosexuality is against my beliefs" and the gay community morphs that into "X person hates gay people and wants to see them slaughtered," then they proceed to demonstrate and riot until their butthurt little hinies get kissed and powdered.

I've yet to see any gay riots. I've seen many gays discriminated against, tormented, and murdered, though. Sorry that it annoys you that they're a bit upset over that, along with the decades of being treated as sub-human third-class citizens for the sole reason of loving people with the same gonads. Maybe if we stop doing that, they'll stop making you shiat your pants in annoyance over their wanting to not be demonized and hated for who they love.


Stonewall?
 
2013-02-02 12:08:37 AM
I'm not reading this whole thing.
Like, TLDR.
But ... has anyone mentioned they are splitting pubic hairs here?
 
2013-02-02 12:11:47 AM

GoldSpider: All I remember about OA was the shelterless sleep-out.

Yes, it rained.


3 matches and 6 fires to build.
And it RAINED
 
2013-02-02 12:13:32 AM
After drinking with a creationist who has so many logical disconnects who kept arguing for science (as creationists understand it) tonight, the Boy Scouts almost make sense.
 
2013-02-02 12:17:01 AM

Fano: Keizer_Ghidorah: TerminalEchoes: Keizer_Ghidorah: TerminalEchoes: xen0blue: I can't believe they are letting gays in before atheists. Both are actually against what's the bible, but the bible actually singles homosexuality out by being specifically bad pointing out it's a perversion by illustrating Sodom and Gomorrah.

Because gays are far better at pissing and moaning when the rest of the country isn't coddling them.

Because treating them as human beings and American citizens = "coddling" them. Did you also get annoyed at those uppity negroes and women wanting to be treated equally?

Uh, no. But nice try. I'm talking about X person saying "homosexuality is against my beliefs" and the gay community morphs that into "X person hates gay people and wants to see them slaughtered," then they proceed to demonstrate and riot until their butthurt little hinies get kissed and powdered.

I've yet to see any gay riots. I've seen many gays discriminated against, tormented, and murdered, though. Sorry that it annoys you that they're a bit upset over that, along with the decades of being treated as sub-human third-class citizens for the sole reason of loving people with the same gonads. Maybe if we stop doing that, they'll stop making you shiat your pants in annoyance over their wanting to not be demonized and hated for who they love.

Stonewall?


One whole riot, that happened because of the constant persecution and arrests, which led to the start of the LGBT movement for equality. Now compare that to the number of riots caused by the outcomes of sports games.
 
2013-02-02 12:17:42 AM

netgamer7k: It won't be long until people into pedophilia and bestiality will be asking for rights.

I'm just gonna walk away when someone says, "What's wrong with somebody choosing to marry their dog?" or "Why should he (50 year old man) not have his right to marry a 12 year old girl he loves?"


Hmm, account created is, yea, you lose.
 
2013-02-02 12:18:33 AM

Keizer_Ghidorah: netgamer7k: It won't be long until people into pedophilia and bestiality will be asking for rights.

I'm just gonna walk away when someone says, "What's wrong with somebody choosing to marry their dog?" or "Why should he (50 year old man) not have his right to marry a 12 year old girl he loves?"

Ah, the slippery slope fallacy. How droll.

KrispyKritter: one more time: What's stopping you people from forming Gays and Lesbian Scouts of America? sad truth in boy Boy and girl Scouts is there are damn few parents & guardians that want to get involved with their children's activities. Start your own thing, don't wait for some folks you don't even care for to ask you to join their reindeer games, you idiots.

Ah, separate but equal. How droll.


When did a slippery slope become an absolute fallacy?
 
2013-02-02 12:20:32 AM

davidphogan: Keizer_Ghidorah: netgamer7k: It won't be long until people into pedophilia and bestiality will be asking for rights.

I'm just gonna walk away when someone says, "What's wrong with somebody choosing to marry their dog?" or "Why should he (50 year old man) not have his right to marry a 12 year old girl he loves?"

Ah, the slippery slope fallacy. How droll.

KrispyKritter: one more time: What's stopping you people from forming Gays and Lesbian Scouts of America? sad truth in boy Boy and girl Scouts is there are damn few parents & guardians that want to get involved with their children's activities. Start your own thing, don't wait for some folks you don't even care for to ask you to join their reindeer games, you idiots.

Ah, separate but equal. How droll.

When did a slippery slope become an absolute fallacy?


When it comes to law and order threads it's an absolute, proven fact.
 
2013-02-02 12:21:09 AM

Keizer_Ghidorah: Fano: Keizer_Ghidorah: TerminalEchoes: Keizer_Ghidorah: TerminalEchoes: xen0blue: I can't believe they are letting gays in before atheists. Both are actually against what's the bible, but the bible actually singles homosexuality out by being specifically bad pointing out it's a perversion by illustrating Sodom and Gomorrah.

Because gays are far better at pissing and moaning when the rest of the country isn't coddling them.

Because treating them as human beings and American citizens = "coddling" them. Did you also get annoyed at those uppity negroes and women wanting to be treated equally?

Uh, no. But nice try. I'm talking about X person saying "homosexuality is against my beliefs" and the gay community morphs that into "X person hates gay people and wants to see them slaughtered," then they proceed to demonstrate and riot until their butthurt little hinies get kissed and powdered.

I've yet to see any gay riots. I've seen many gays discriminated against, tormented, and murdered, though. Sorry that it annoys you that they're a bit upset over that, along with the decades of being treated as sub-human third-class citizens for the sole reason of loving people with the same gonads. Maybe if we stop doing that, they'll stop making you shiat your pants in annoyance over their wanting to not be demonized and hated for who they love.

Stonewall?

One whole riot, that happened because of the constant persecution and arrests, which led to the start of the LGBT movement for equality. Now compare that to the number of riots caused by the outcomes of sports games.


You're right.
 
2013-02-02 12:22:39 AM

Keizer_Ghidorah: Fano: Keizer_Ghidorah: TerminalEchoes: Keizer_Ghidorah: TerminalEchoes: xen0blue: I can't believe they are letting gays in before atheists. Both are actually against what's the bible, but the bible actually singles homosexuality out by being specifically bad pointing out it's a perversion by illustrating Sodom and Gomorrah.

Because gays are far better at pissing and moaning when the rest of the country isn't coddling them.

Because treating them as human beings and American citizens = "coddling" them. Did you also get annoyed at those uppity negroes and women wanting to be treated equally?

Uh, no. But nice try. I'm talking about X person saying "homosexuality is against my beliefs" and the gay community morphs that into "X person hates gay people and wants to see them slaughtered," then they proceed to demonstrate and riot until their butthurt little hinies get kissed and powdered.

I've yet to see any gay riots. I've seen many gays discriminated against, tormented, and murdered, though. Sorry that it annoys you that they're a bit upset over that, along with the decades of being treated as sub-human third-class citizens for the sole reason of loving people with the same gonads. Maybe if we stop doing that, they'll stop making you shiat your pants in annoyance over their wanting to not be demonized and hated for who they love.

Stonewall?

One whole riot, that happened because of the constant persecution and arrests, which led to the start of the LGBT movement for equality. Now compare that to the number of riots caused by the outcomes of sports games.


You do know you're getting me a bit hot and bothered, wut? Just playing but well said.
 
2013-02-02 12:26:51 AM

tinfoil-hat maggie: Keizer_Ghidorah: Fano: Keizer_Ghidorah: TerminalEchoes: Keizer_Ghidorah: TerminalEchoes: xen0blue: I can't believe they are letting gays in before atheists. Both are actually against what's the bible, but the bible actually singles homosexuality out by being specifically bad pointing out it's a perversion by illustrating Sodom and Gomorrah.

Because gays are far better at pissing and moaning when the rest of the country isn't coddling them.

Because treating them as human beings and American citizens = "coddling" them. Did you also get annoyed at those uppity negroes and women wanting to be treated equally?

Uh, no. But nice try. I'm talking about X person saying "homosexuality is against my beliefs" and the gay community morphs that into "X person hates gay people and wants to see them slaughtered," then they proceed to demonstrate and riot until their butthurt little hinies get kissed and powdered.

I've yet to see any gay riots. I've seen many gays discriminated against, tormented, and murdered, though. Sorry that it annoys you that they're a bit upset over that, along with the decades of being treated as sub-human third-class citizens for the sole reason of loving people with the same gonads. Maybe if we stop doing that, they'll stop making you shiat your pants in annoyance over their wanting to not be demonized and hated for who they love.

Stonewall?

One whole riot, that happened because of the constant persecution and arrests, which led to the start of the LGBT movement for equality. Now compare that to the number of riots caused by the outcomes of sports games.

You do know you're getting me a bit hot and bothered, wut? Just playing but well said.


I do seem to have that effect on you ;)
 
2013-02-02 12:29:20 AM

davidphogan: Keizer_Ghidorah: netgamer7k: It won't be long until people into pedophilia and bestiality will be asking for rights.

I'm just gonna walk away when someone says, "What's wrong with somebody choosing to marry their dog?" or "Why should he (50 year old man) not have his right to marry a 12 year old girl he loves?"

Ah, the slippery slope fallacy. How droll.

KrispyKritter: one more time: What's stopping you people from forming Gays and Lesbian Scouts of America? sad truth in boy Boy and girl Scouts is there are damn few parents & guardians that want to get involved with their children's activities. Start your own thing, don't wait for some folks you don't even care for to ask you to join their reindeer games, you idiots.

Ah, separate but equal. How droll.

When did a slippery slope become an absolute fallacy?


When it's the "If you allow equality for homosexuals, then you have to allow equality for child rapists and dog farkers and people will marry their turtles and American civilization will end!" slippery slope argument, then it's automatically a fallacy. Consenting adults =/= forcing yourself on children and animals.
 
2013-02-02 12:34:54 AM

Keizer_Ghidorah: tinfoil-hat maggie: Keizer_Ghidorah: Fano: Keizer_Ghidorah: TerminalEchoes: Keizer_Ghidorah: TerminalEchoes: xen0blue: I can't believe they are letting gays in before atheists. Both are actually against what's the bible, but the bible actually singles homosexuality out by being specifically bad pointing out it's a perversion by illustrating Sodom and Gomorrah.

Because gays are far better at pissing and moaning when the rest of the country isn't coddling them.

Because treating them as human beings and American citizens = "coddling" them. Did you also get annoyed at those uppity negroes and women wanting to be treated equally?

Uh, no. But nice try. I'm talking about X person saying "homosexuality is against my beliefs" and the gay community morphs that into "X person hates gay people and wants to see them slaughtered," then they proceed to demonstrate and riot until their butthurt little hinies get kissed and powdered.

I've yet to see any gay riots. I've seen many gays discriminated against, tormented, and murdered, though. Sorry that it annoys you that they're a bit upset over that, along with the decades of being treated as sub-human third-class citizens for the sole reason of loving people with the same gonads. Maybe if we stop doing that, they'll stop making you shiat your pants in annoyance over their wanting to not be demonized and hated for who they love.

Stonewall?

One whole riot, that happened because of the constant persecution and arrests, which led to the start of the LGBT movement for equality. Now compare that to the number of riots caused by the outcomes of sports games.

You do know you're getting me a bit hot and bothered, wut? Just playing but well said.

I do seem to have that effect on you ;)


I guess I can't help myself ; ) Wut? I like smart passionate people ; )
/What can I say?
 
2013-02-02 12:37:59 AM

Keizer_Ghidorah: davidphogan: Keizer_Ghidorah: netgamer7k: It won't be long until people into pedophilia and bestiality will be asking for rights.

I'm just gonna walk away when someone says, "What's wrong with somebody choosing to marry their dog?" or "Why should he (50 year old man) not have his right to marry a 12 year old girl he loves?"

Ah, the slippery slope fallacy. How droll.

KrispyKritter: one more time: What's stopping you people from forming Gays and Lesbian Scouts of America? sad truth in boy Boy and girl Scouts is there are damn few parents & guardians that want to get involved with their children's activities. Start your own thing, don't wait for some folks you don't even care for to ask you to join their reindeer games, you idiots.

Ah, separate but equal. How droll.

When did a slippery slope become an absolute fallacy?

When it's the "If you allow equality for homosexuals, then you have to allow equality for child rapists and dog farkers and people will marry their turtles and American civilization will end!" slippery slope argument, then it's automatically a fallacy. Consenting adults =/= forcing yourself on children and animals.


I will note an uptick in more than nominally facetious arguments in favor of polygamy and bestiality in the last year on fark. Gay marriage is non-negotiable, no matter what those jokers say though. I'll assume those folks are shock and awe concern trolls.
 
2013-02-02 12:44:34 AM

tinfoil-hat maggie: I guess I can't help myself ; ) Wut? I like smart passionate people ; )
/What can I say?


Brains and sensitivity turn you on, that's all :) But I know your weaknesses, yeeees.

www.popwired.com

;)

Fano: I will note an uptick in more than nominally facetious arguments in favor of polygamy and bestiality in the last year on fark. Gay marriage is non-negotiable, no matter what those jokers say though. I'll assume those folks are shock and awe concern trolls.


Some do it to mock those who use it, but most either do it because they actually believe it or because they feel like trolling.
 
2013-02-02 12:48:50 AM

fusillade762: WTF Indeed: fusillade762: Boy scouting is a religion.

No it's not. Don't be an ass.

I'm just preempting a certain Frenchman who's no doubt on his way.


I would have gone with "Scouting is a learned behavior"
 
2013-02-02 12:59:55 AM

Bermuda59: What about the Irish?


No.  They're as bad as the Boy Scouts.   You can't be Irish if you're gay.
 
2013-02-02 01:00:12 AM

Keizer_Ghidorah: tinfoil-hat maggie: I guess I can't help myself ; ) Wut? I like smart passionate people ; )
/What can I say?

Brains and sensitivity turn you on, that's all :) But I know your weaknesses, yeeees.

[www.popwired.com image 450x355]

;)

Fano: I will note an uptick in more than nominally facetious arguments in favor of polygamy and bestiality in the last year on fark. Gay marriage is non-negotiable, no matter what those jokers say though. I'll assume those folks are shock and awe concern trolls.

Some do it to mock those who use it, but most either do it because they actually believe it or because they feel like trolling.


No that's not really all but that wasn't fair : /
25.media.tumblr.com
 
2013-02-02 01:01:22 AM

DreamyAltarBoy: fusillade762: WTF Indeed: fusillade762: Boy scouting is a religion.

No it's not. Don't be an ass.

I'm just preempting a certain Frenchman who's no doubt on his way.

I would have gone with "Scouting is a learned behavior"


LoL : )
 
2013-02-02 01:03:47 AM

FloydA: WTF Indeed: fusillade762: Boy scouting is a religion.

No it's not. Don't be an ass.

Being an ass is a religion.


Fark is a temple.
 
2013-02-02 01:06:07 AM

coeyagi: Mock26: The very first commandment is, "You shall have no other gods before me."  Yet, the Boy Scouts of America allow Hindus to join and to hold positions of leadership.  Seems that the Boy Scouts, like many so-called christians, are fond of picking and choosing those parts of the bible that are convenient to their agenda and ignore those parts that are inconvenient.

Wow, a new breed of ignorance reveals itself.  It's not the Boy Scouts of Jesus, or were you just hoping for a few bites?


And just where did the Boy Scouts get the idea that homosexuals are not "morally straight and clean in thought, word, and deed"?  I will give you a hint:  the bible.

The Boy Scouts of America has never shied away from the fact that they are an organization with with christian roots and christian values, and where do those values come from?  I will again give you a hint: the bible.
 
2013-02-02 01:06:10 AM

ciberido: Bermuda59: What about the Irish?

No.  They're as bad as the Boy Scouts.   You can't be Irish if you're gay.


Well there are no happy Irish Songs : )
 
2013-02-02 01:07:32 AM

Keizer_Ghidorah: tinfoil-hat maggie: I guess I can't help myself ; ) Wut? I like smart passionate people ; )
/What can I say?

Brains and sensitivity turn you on, that's all :) But I know your weaknesses, yeeees.

[www.popwired.com image 450x355]

;)

Fano: I will note an uptick in more than nominally facetious arguments in favor of polygamy and bestiality in the last year on fark. Gay marriage is non-negotiable, no matter what those jokers say though. I'll assume those folks are shock and awe concern trolls.

Some do it to mock those who use it, but most either do it because they actually believe it or because they feel like trolling.


I hope they don't do it because they believe they are A-ok now that gay rights are being respected, so now the slippery slope means their stuff is on the table. Things between consenting adults is a pretty bright line to draw (age of consent perhaps culturally negotiable, within limits) Bestiality, incest, pedophilia still  remain off the table forever. Polygamy is a push for me, I understand arguments from cultures where it is practiced, but find it unacceptable here.
 
2013-02-02 01:09:52 AM

madgonad: In the American social order, the only thing lower than atheists are pedophiles.
[www.theblaze.com image 530x361]


You forgot furries.
 
2013-02-02 01:11:05 AM

KangTheMad: xen0blue: I can't believe they are letting gays in before atheists. Both are actually against what's the bible, but the bible actually singles homosexuality out by being specifically bad pointing out it's a perversion by illustrating Sodom and Gomorrah.

It's easier to tell when someone is gay, they like the tight shorts and always watch the butts of other scouts on hikes. Athiest, you pretty much have to wave a flaming bible over your head while peeing on a cross for people to notice.


Dude, don't steal my act!

A performance artist's act is SACRED!
 
2013-02-02 01:12:58 AM

ciberido: madgonad: In the American social order, the only thing lower than atheists are pedophiles.
[www.theblaze.com image 530x361]

You forgot furries.


Oh, now you're just trying to push buttons, I love it ; )
/Cheers : )
 
2013-02-02 01:16:49 AM

ciberido: madgonad: In the American social order, the only thing lower than atheists are pedophiles.
[www.theblaze.com image 530x361]

You forgot furries.


And Broncos fans.
 
2013-02-02 01:19:43 AM

phalamir: xen0blue: I can't believe they are letting gays in before atheists. Both are actually against what's the bible, but the bible actually singles homosexuality out by being specifically bad pointing out it's a perversion by illustrating Sodom and Gomorrah.

Sodom and Gomorrah was because they did not show hospitality to guests - the form of that inhospitality is secondary or tertiary to the issue.  In the same way, we generally do not say your crime was carpentry when you nail someone's head to a wall



No, it had nothing to do with hospitality OR homosexuality per se.  Actually the reason why God smited (smote?) Sodom and Gomorrah was because they did not have refrigeration.
 
2013-02-02 01:20:46 AM

tinfoil-hat maggie: Keizer_Ghidorah: tinfoil-hat maggie: I guess I can't help myself ; ) Wut? I like smart passionate people ; )
/What can I say?

Brains and sensitivity turn you on, that's all :) But I know your weaknesses, yeeees.

[www.popwired.com image 450x355]

;)

Fano: I will note an uptick in more than nominally facetious arguments in favor of polygamy and bestiality in the last year on fark. Gay marriage is non-negotiable, no matter what those jokers say though. I'll assume those folks are shock and awe concern trolls.

Some do it to mock those who use it, but most either do it because they actually believe it or because they feel like trolling.

No that's not really all but that wasn't fair : /
[25.media.tumblr.com image 500x635]


Heh heh heh. Mmmmm, I wanna nuzzle her stomach.
 
2013-02-02 01:23:21 AM

uncleacid: I think I'll pass when they start selling Boy Scout Cookies.


www.addamsfamily.com
Depends.   Are they made from real Boy Scouts?
 
2013-02-02 01:30:40 AM

Keizer_Ghidorah: Heh heh heh. Mmmmm, I wanna nuzzle her stomach.


I know right : )
eatdrinkdatelaughpray.files.wordpress.com
/And now how do you feel : )
 
2013-02-02 01:33:06 AM

Mike Chewbacca: It's funny that the Girl Scouts don't have this same issue. They let in everyone, because they want ALL girls to grow to be strong women, not just the "right" girls. Of course, that might be because the Mormons haven't taken over GSUSA, likely because Mormons don't want strong women.


This article from the Atlantic gives some history and explanation of how the two groups are so different.
 
2013-02-02 01:35:49 AM

Mike Chewbacca: BraveNewCheneyWorld: Mike Chewbacca: BraveNewCheneyWorld: Boo hoo, not every organization on earth is something we qualify to join.  Let's whine until they change their rules because our feelings are hurt!

There's a difference between qualifying and "we don't let your kind in." But you knew that already.

Not really, you subscribe to their way of life, or you don't.  If you don't like it, don't whine like a little biatch and start your own club instead.

So how does a black person subscribe to a white person's way of life?



Pay Michael Jackson's doctors a lot of money.
 
2013-02-02 01:42:38 AM

netgamer7k: It won't be long until people into pedophilia and bestiality will be asking for rights.

I'm just gonna walk away when someone says, "What's wrong with somebody choosing to marry their dog?" or "Why should he (50 year old man) not have his right to marry a 12 year old girl he loves?"


thenakedpheasant.files.wordpress.com

It's not the dogs you need to worry about people marrying.  It's the ducks.
 
2013-02-02 01:42:40 AM

ciberido: uncleacid: I think I'll pass when they start selling Boy Scout Cookies.

[www.addamsfamily.com image 640x480]
Depends.   Are they made from real Boy Scouts?


Will you marry me, yes the Addams family thing really did it for me(yes I now it was supposed to be girl scouts ) of course it could have been the Irish song that helped my drinking along : )
More Irish music by the Wolf Tones Crazy stuff : )
 
2013-02-02 01:44:55 AM

ciberido: netgamer7k: It won't be long until people into pedophilia and bestiality will be asking for rights.

I'm just gonna walk away when someone says, "What's wrong with somebody choosing to marry their dog?" or "Why should he (50 year old man) not have his right to marry a 12 year old girl he loves?"

[thenakedpheasant.files.wordpress.com image 640x480]

It's not the dogs you need to worry about people marrying.  It's the ducks.


That movie did always make me feel funny : )
 
2013-02-02 02:01:52 AM

Keizer_Ghidorah: davidphogan: Keizer_Ghidorah: netgamer7k: It won't be long until people into pedophilia and bestiality will be asking for rights.

I'm just gonna walk away when someone says, "What's wrong with somebody choosing to marry their dog?" or "Why should he (50 year old man) not have his right to marry a 12 year old girl he loves?"

Ah, the slippery slope fallacy. How droll.

KrispyKritter: one more time: What's stopping you people from forming Gays and Lesbian Scouts of America? sad truth in boy Boy and girl Scouts is there are damn few parents & guardians that want to get involved with their children's activities. Start your own thing, don't wait for some folks you don't even care for to ask you to join their reindeer games, you idiots.

Ah, separate but equal. How droll.

When did a slippery slope become an absolute fallacy?

When it's the "If you allow equality for homosexuals, then you have to allow equality for child rapists and dog farkers and people will marry their turtles and American civilization will end!" slippery slope argument, then it's automatically a fallacy. Consenting adults =/= forcing yourself on children and animals.



Yes, that is EXACTLY what God was worried about.   People wanting to marry their turtles.
 
2013-02-02 02:07:02 AM

tinfoil-hat maggie: Keizer_Ghidorah: Heh heh heh. Mmmmm, I wanna nuzzle her stomach.

I know right : )
[eatdrinkdatelaughpray.files.wordpress.com image 300x425]
/And now how do you feel : )


I don't know about the Keizer, but I'm up for both.
 
2013-02-02 02:16:54 AM

DreamyAltarBoy: tinfoil-hat maggie: Keizer_Ghidorah: Heh heh heh. Mmmmm, I wanna nuzzle her stomach.

I know right : )
[eatdrinkdatelaughpray.files.wordpress.com image 300x425]
/And now how do you feel : )

I don't know about the Keizer, but I'm up for both.


Exactly, correct answer.
Also there is a facial hair thread upstream that really could use some hot men in it : )
 
2013-02-02 02:22:15 AM

lostcat: I was a Cub Scout, and the pushing of the religious agenda was one of the reasons I never got past Webelos.

My parents had nothing to do with it. They'd both been brought up in strict, religious homes, and had decided not to discuss religion with my sister and I as we grew up unless we brought it up, then they would be encyclopedic in their responses. We were free to go to church and church-related activities with our friends, or not to. They just didn't push any of it on us.

Oddly, both my sister and I grew up to be atheists (not agnostics). Funny how it works if you don't indoctrinate kids into your religion at an early age.

Anyway, I was always unhappy with the religious subtext in scouts, so I just stopped going. Not really sure why an atheist would want to be in the Scouts.


That's funny, that's more or less what my spouse and I have done (one is a non-church going Christian the other is atheist) and the kiddo is showing definite signs of being religious.

 It is always his choice, but I found it interesting.
 
2013-02-02 03:08:34 AM

Keizer_Ghidorah: davidphogan: Keizer_Ghidorah: netgamer7k: It won't be long until people into pedophilia and bestiality will be asking for rights.

I'm just gonna walk away when someone says, "What's wrong with somebody choosing to marry their dog?" or "Why should he (50 year old man) not have his right to marry a 12 year old girl he loves?"

Ah, the slippery slope fallacy. How droll.

KrispyKritter: one more time: What's stopping you people from forming Gays and Lesbian Scouts of America? sad truth in boy Boy and girl Scouts is there are damn few parents & guardians that want to get involved with their children's activities. Start your own thing, don't wait for some folks you don't even care for to ask you to join their reindeer games, you idiots.

Ah, separate but equal. How droll.

When did a slippery slope become an absolute fallacy?

When it's the "If you allow equality for homosexuals, then you have to allow equality for child rapists and dog farkers and people will marry their turtles and American civilization will end!" slippery slope argument, then it's automatically a fallacy. Consenting adults =/= forcing yourself on children and animals.


www.fugly.com
 
2013-02-02 04:27:40 AM

coeyagi: You'd better keep supporting the Girls Scouts, they're bleeding numbers faster than the Boy Scouts


That's absolutely false. BSA is down over 20% since 1999 (from 3,411,852 to 2,723,869. On the other hand, GSUSA had 2,749,000 girls in 1999 and 2,305,744 in 2011 (warning: PDF), a drop of 16.1%. I tried to find more numbers for GS, but I could only find up to 1999 and then 2005, 2009, 2010, and 2011.
 
2013-02-02 04:33:35 AM

ciberido: Mike Chewbacca: It's funny that the Girl Scouts don't have this same issue. They let in everyone, because they want ALL girls to grow to be strong women, not just the "right" girls. Of course, that might be because the Mormons haven't taken over GSUSA, likely because Mormons don't want strong women.

This article from the Atlantic gives some history and explanation of how the two groups are so different.


The article didn't really say anything I didn't know, until: "The girls' handbook conveys messages about approaching activities with autonomous and critical thinking, whereas the boys' handbook facilitates intellectual passivity through a reliance on organizational scripts." Wow. I'm going to have to dig into that linked report. My sister has a GS troop, and she says everything is girl-led (girls make the decisions, at least to some extent, like what they do with their cookie money, and which badges to work on, and what food to eat when camping).
 
2013-02-02 04:55:11 AM

Mike Chewbacca: coeyagi: You'd better keep supporting the Girls Scouts, they're bleeding numbers faster than the Boy Scouts

That's absolutely false. BSA is down over 20% since 1999 (from 3,411,852 to 2,723,869. On the other hand, GSUSA had 2,749,000 girls in 1999 and 2,305,744 in 2011 (warning: PDF), a drop of 16.1%. I tried to find more numbers for GS, but I could only find up to 1999 and then 2005, 2009, 2010, and 2011.


Based on the number of girl scouts per 100,000 people the decline is actually 24.8%.  The boy scouts have seen a drop in membership of 28.4%.  Both organizations need to change and adapt to the times if they want to remain relevant, assuming of course, that they still are.
 
2013-02-02 04:58:48 AM

Mike Chewbacca: coeyagi: You'd better keep supporting the Girls Scouts, they're bleeding numbers faster than the Boy Scouts

That's absolutely false. BSA is down over 20% since 1999 (from 3,411,852 to 2,723,869. On the other hand, GSUSA had 2,749,000 girls in 1999 and 2,305,744 in 2011 (warning: PDF), a drop of 16.1%. I tried to find more numbers for GS, but I could only find up to 1999 and then 2005, 2009, 2010, and 2011.


Also, based on just the number of members, the Boy Scouts are down 20.2%.

/Not contradicting you at all, just pointing out some numbers.
 
2013-02-02 05:09:00 AM
Why is it always the boy Scouts getting hell for not allowing gays and atheists and not the Royal Rangers?
 
2013-02-02 05:49:04 AM

Cloudchaser Sakonige the Red Wolf: Why is it always the boy Scouts getting hell for not allowing gays and atheists and not the Royal Rangers?


Probably because their members number in the thousands (compared to millions for the boy scouts) and most Americans have probably never heard of the Royal Rangers.
 
2013-02-02 06:03:12 AM

Mock26: Cloudchaser Sakonige the Red Wolf: Why is it always the boy Scouts getting hell for not allowing gays and atheists and not the Royal Rangers?

Probably because their members number in the thousands (compared to millions for the boy scouts) and most Americans have probably never heard of the Royal Rangers.


Good point.
 
2013-02-02 06:07:23 AM

Mock26: coeyagi: Mock26: The very first commandment is, "You shall have no other gods before me."  Yet, the Boy Scouts of America allow Hindus to join and to hold positions of leadership.  Seems that the Boy Scouts, like many so-called christians, are fond of picking and choosing those parts of the bible that are convenient to their agenda and ignore those parts that are inconvenient.

Wow, a new breed of ignorance reveals itself.  It's not the Boy Scouts of Jesus, or were you just hoping for a few bites?

And just where did the Boy Scouts get the idea that homosexuals are not "morally straight and clean in thought, word, and deed"?  I will give you a hint:  the bible.

The Boy Scouts of America has never shied away from the fact that they are an organization with with christian roots and christian values, and where do those values come from?  I will again give you a hint: the bible.


Face palm. It doesn't mean they are a Christian organization even if most of their members are.

You must be part of the "We are a Christian Nation" crowd. A sad bunch, to be sure.
 
2013-02-02 06:50:52 AM

coeyagi: Mock26: coeyagi: Mock26: The very first commandment is, "You shall have no other gods before me."  Yet, the Boy Scouts of America allow Hindus to join and to hold positions of leadership.  Seems that the Boy Scouts, like many so-called christians, are fond of picking and choosing those parts of the bible that are convenient to their agenda and ignore those parts that are inconvenient.

Wow, a new breed of ignorance reveals itself.  It's not the Boy Scouts of Jesus, or were you just hoping for a few bites?

And just where did the Boy Scouts get the idea that homosexuals are not "morally straight and clean in thought, word, and deed"?  I will give you a hint:  the bible.

The Boy Scouts of America has never shied away from the fact that they are an organization with with christian roots and christian values, and where do those values come from?  I will again give you a hint: the bible.

Face palm. It doesn't mean they are a Christian organization even if most of their members are.

You must be part of the "We are a Christian Nation" crowd. A sad bunch, to be sure.


Homosexuality is bad,  The bible tells us so, so no gays allowed!
Worshiping false gods is bad.  The bible tells us so, but we will ignore that bit.

It matters not that they are not a christian organization, but like many christians they cherry pick parts of the bible that suit their viewpoint/values.

Also, I am not a part of the "We are a christian nation" crowd.  I am actually an atheist and huge fan of the wall of separation between church and state.
 
2013-02-02 08:00:55 AM
Eagle here, we never really had much emphasis on religion. We had multiple denominations even a couple muslims. But we met in a church so some lip-service was required. It probably depended on the troop, but it's not all bad even for atheists.

Then again we were methodist so we're all going to heaven anyway.
Glad this happened tho.
 
2013-02-02 08:14:49 AM

Marine1: The national organization has far less power over the individual councils and troops than the media would lead someone to believe.


So an organization that in part prides itself on teaching leadership to the young has none? That's a ringing endorsement.
 
2013-02-02 09:35:06 AM

DreamyAltarBoy: I would have gone with "Scouting is a learned behavior"


Is "AltarBoy" your surname?
 
2013-02-02 09:56:18 AM

TerminalEchoes: xen0blue: I can't believe they are letting gays in before atheists. Both are actually against what's the bible, but the bible actually singles homosexuality out by being specifically bad pointing out it's a perversion by illustrating Sodom and Gomorrah.

Because gays are far better at pissing and moaning when the rest of the country isn't coddling them.


Don't encourage people who point at the bible instead of reading it:

Behold, this was the iniquity of thy sister Sodom, pride, fulness of bread, and abundance of idleness was in her and in her daughters, neither did she strengthen the hand of the poor and needy  (Ezk 16:49)
 
2013-02-02 12:37:45 PM

Mock26: Mike Chewbacca: coeyagi: You'd better keep supporting the Girls Scouts, they're bleeding numbers faster than the Boy Scouts

That's absolutely false. BSA is down over 20% since 1999 (from 3,411,852 to 2,723,869. On the other hand, GSUSA had 2,749,000 girls in 1999 and 2,305,744 in 2011 (warning: PDF), a drop of 16.1%. I tried to find more numbers for GS, but I could only find up to 1999 and then 2005, 2009, 2010, and 2011.

Based on the number of girl scouts per 100,000 people the decline is actually 24.8%.  The boy scouts have seen a drop in membership of 28.4%.  Both organizations need to change and adapt to the times if they want to remain relevant, assuming of course, that they still are.




A better way to look at it is per 100,000 people in the appropriate age group. I didn't include adult volunteers in my figure
 
2013-02-02 12:40:12 PM

Mock26: Mike Chewbacca: coeyagi: You'd better keep supporting the Girls Scouts, they're bleeding numbers faster than the Boy Scouts

That's absolutely false. BSA is down over 20% since 1999 (from 3,411,852 to 2,723,869. On the other hand, GSUSA had 2,749,000 girls in 1999 and 2,305,744 in 2011 (warning: PDF), a drop of 16.1%. I tried to find more numbers for GS, but I could only find up to 1999 and then 2005, 2009, 2010, and 2011.

Also, based on just the number of members, the Boy Scouts are down 20.2%.

/Not contradicting you at all, just pointing out some numbers.



Yup
 
2013-02-02 01:28:31 PM
Atheists who want to join associations that disdain them have to change the culture, not the law.

Good luck with that, heathen.
 
2013-02-02 08:31:32 PM

Krieghund: EvilEgg: They only really ask that you fake it.

It goes against the whole "trustworthy" thing if you're lying about being reverent.


OTOH, it does get the training in early you'll need to succeed in business, politics or religion. If you can't fake sincerity, you're generally farked.
 
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