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(WTOP)   Virginia governor Bob McDonnell proposes a $100 fee on hybrid drivers to replace the tax money they're not paying on gasoline. How's that smug taste now?   (wtop.com) divider line 236
    More: Amusing, Bob McDonnell, Governor of Virginia, fees, WTOP  
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5921 clicks; posted to Main » on 01 Feb 2013 at 6:11 PM (2 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-02-01 06:31:28 PM  
Hybrids are typically very light cars, they put far less wear and tear on the road than your 3 ton hummer.
 
2013-02-01 06:32:46 PM  
I guess the days of trying to incentivize the purchase of these vehicles are over.

100 Watt Walrus: Pocket Ninja: Just stop letting these asshats cars drive in the HOV lane. That's all I ask.

[i.imgur.com image 640x640]

HOV lanes are supposed to help reduce the number of cars on the road. Driving a hybrid doesn't help with traffic.


It was part of the plan to create incentives to purchase hybrid cars.

I guess we don't need to incentivize those purchases anymore.

San Francisco has already taken the HOV-lane privelege away from hybrids. You have to have a full-on electric car now.
 
2013-02-01 06:32:48 PM  

Bit'O'Gristle: No matter what you do, no matter how good your intent, or reasons for doing what you do, the government will ALWAYS find a loophole or make a new law to fark you out of your money. This surprises you how?


This isn't the same.  They are eliminating the tax on everyone, but then adding a new fee just for hybrids and electrics.  Blaming the "government" would be an outright over-simplification of the situation.  Blame this specific asshat governor instead.
 
2013-02-01 06:33:17 PM  
So the party of low taxes wants to tax people for a product they don't use?
 
2013-02-01 06:34:20 PM  
Road usage fees (vehicle reg., gas tax) only pay for about half of what roads cost.

This idea is beyond stupid.
 
2013-02-01 06:36:59 PM  

nacker: They are eliminating the tax on everyone


I thought that was what it was trying to say but it just seemed so f*cking stoopid even the crappiest oil lobby sucking POS politician wouldn't go that far.

Is that really what is happening? No taxes for those who actually USE the gas but tax the hybrid owners because they use LESS of it?

If so... criminal charges please. The man is a traitor to the country and humanity.
 
2013-02-01 06:37:40 PM  

Jument: Yeah, that's stupid. Increase the gas tax. Those who burn more gas should pay more.


Because burning more gas is worse for the condition of the roads through usage how?
 
2013-02-01 06:39:43 PM  

here to help: nacker: They are eliminating the tax on everyone

I thought that was what it was trying to say but it just seemed so f*cking stoopid even the crappiest oil lobby sucking POS politician wouldn't go that far.

Is that really what is happening? No taxes for those who actually USE the gas but tax the hybrid owners because they use LESS of it?

If so... criminal charges please. The man is a traitor to the country and humanity.


They are eliminating the STATE gas tax.  Obviously the federal one would still be in place, and I'm sure the state gets plenty of money to maintain freeways, etc from that.
 
2013-02-01 06:41:02 PM  
So it wasn't really about saving the environment, it was saving $$$ on gas?
 
2013-02-01 06:41:31 PM  

sheRaids: You can always count on the government finding some way to squeeze more money out of us!


BRILLIANT INSIGHT! So glad you're here.
 
2013-02-01 06:41:45 PM  
It still tastes like victory.

/I got my wife out of a Cadilac DeVille (a high-test burner.)
/with extra awsome sauce
 
2013-02-01 06:42:22 PM  
$100? Pffft, too low. Needs to be $1,000.
 
2013-02-01 06:43:23 PM  

pciszek: Supes: The big problem is getting rid of the gas tax also, which basically means ONLY hybrid drivers will pay extra to maintain the roads, not drivers of normal cars. Which is just stupid.  Either impose an equal yearly fee (say, $25) for ALL cars and get rid of gas taxes, or maintain the gas tax and also add a small surcharge to hybrid drivers.

If the goal is to charge fairly for wear on the roads, the tax should be proportional to the fourth power of weight-per-axle, and directly proportional to the number of axles and the miles driven.   No chance of that happening, but at least a tax on gas has the property of being proportional to the amount of driving and in practice charging heavier vehicles more per mile.  

I can't help but think he's singling out hybrids under the impression they're usually driven by liberals, and this is a way to lower taxes on his main supporters while alienating people who won't vote for him anyway. But then again I'm a skeptic like that.

Are there even enough hybrids in the state to pay for the roads?  If you keep jacking up the hybrid tax to get all of the missing gas tax revenue from fewer and fewer hybrids, soon there will be no hybrids in the state at all.


That's the problem in a nutshell.  What we really want is a Road-Wear Tax.  What we used to use was a gas tax, since gas consumption was a rough proxy for how much you drove.  It's not anymore, so we absolutely need a weight- and mileage-dependent tax for road maintenance.  Nothing else really makes sense.
 
2013-02-01 06:43:34 PM  
Won't this just add to the Smug?  "I'm so eco-friendly, they have to charge me extra to make up for all the gas I'm not using"
 
2013-02-01 06:43:51 PM  

The Stealth Hippopotamus: Solid State Vittles: What about bicycles?

TAX THE FARK OUT OF BICYCLES!!!


THIS ^^^^

AND TRIPLE TAX DEER, RACCOON AND SKUNK ROADKILL.
 
2013-02-01 06:45:42 PM  

lostcat: 100 Watt Walrus: HOV lanes are supposed to help reduce the number of cars on the road. Driving a hybrid doesn't help with traffic.

It was part of the plan to create incentives to purchase hybrid cars.

I guess we don't need to incentivize those purchases anymore.

San Francisco has already taken the HOV-lane privelege away from hybrids. You have to have a full-on electric car now.


Oh, I know, and it was wrong from the get-go. I'm all for encouraging people to have a smaller environmental footprint, but "drive this car by yourself and we'll let you use the lanes designed to encourage people to  not drive by themselves" is and was stupid.
 
2013-02-01 06:46:57 PM  

Uranus Is Huge!: Taxing people for not using a resource... I don't like it.


The resource is the road, not the gasoline (although hybrid drivers do use gasoline, just not as much of it as non-hybrid drivers).
 
2013-02-01 06:48:38 PM  
Gas tax is based on vehicle size.  The bigger the car, the more gas you use, so the more tax you pay, to cover the damage you cause to the roads. Lighter cars take less gas, cause less wear, and pay less tax.  Hybrids aren't magical, they are just gas efficient.  Why not tax the Honda Fit or Toyota Echo which get well into the 30 mpg range for not using gas like an SUV?  How about mopeds?  Tax them!

We tax electricity, vehicle registration, and gas.  We don't need more taxes.  All the times in play are already taxed.
 
2013-02-01 06:50:49 PM  

nacker: They are eliminating the STATE gas tax. Obviously the federal one would still be in place, and I'm sure the state gets plenty of money to maintain freeways, etc from that.


But he still wants the people using LESS or NO gas to pay. Nope... guy is a f*cking POS... especially after reading his Wiki page.

Link

Anti abortion, sell off state assets, drill baby drill, confederate flag waving P... O... S.

Only good thing I saw on there from a quick scan was that he was for closing the gun show loophole but he still gets an A from the NRA so I can only assume he's doing some other kind of dirty work for them.
 
2013-02-01 06:52:37 PM  

happyhackered: Gas tax is based on vehicle size.  The bigger the car, the more gas you use, so the more tax you pay, to cover the damage you cause to the roads. Lighter cars take less gas, cause less wear, and pay less tax.  Hybrids aren't magical, they are just gas efficient.  Why not tax the Honda Fit or Toyota Echo which get well into the 30 mpg range for not using gas like an SUV?  How about mopeds?  Tax them!

We tax electricity, vehicle registration, and gas.  We don't need more taxes.  All the times in play are already taxed.



Or, what if we tax gas at a flat rate, and the more you need to run your giant tank the more you pay.  Lighter vehicle means less gas needed to run.

/drives a truck
 
2013-02-01 06:52:57 PM  
Virginia's been trying to fix its transportation problems by cutting taxes for the last 20 years. Hasn't worked yet. It seems like it's everyone's number 1 issue here, but no one wants to pay for it.

I can't admit to following Virginia politics too closely but when Gilmore was running for governor it seemed that eliminating the car tax was his entire agenda.

Also, there are non-hybrids that use WAY less gas than some hybrids. Lexus makes one that gets 19 MPG! Not that I mind a gas guzzler paying a bit more, but there are non-hybrids that get 40+ MPG, so the logic of the law doesn't even make sesne.
 
2013-02-01 06:52:59 PM  
As a Virginia Prius driver...I'm not really sure if I'm getting a kick out of this. Last year I bought 217 gallons of gas. So this would basically be a $0.46/gal tax on me. Is that more or less than current taxes? My guess is more, but overall it doesn't seem worth complaining about.
 
2013-02-01 06:53:06 PM  
Hybrid car owners do buy gas for their cars.  They are not 100% electrical.
 
2013-02-01 06:53:33 PM  

APE992: A road usage tax is stupid, the heavier a vehicle is the more wear and tear they do to the road thus making SUVs, trucks, semis and other large vehicles the ones to impose the taxes on. Hybrids don't touch 10 ton vehicles by any stretch of the imagination.


Came here to say this exactly. Road tax should be proportional to vehicle weight. Tractor trailers are by far the biggest offenders. I'd think a weight-dependent road tax could be assessed each year. Create different classes in 500 or 1,000 lbs brackets. Then hit the heavy-weight commercial vehicles (a large proportion of which are registered in different states) for mileage and weight in-state when they hit the weigh stations.
 
2013-02-01 06:53:56 PM  
We had a drought years ago in Virginia and the government aggressively enforced water restrictions, then raise water bill rates because they weren't generating enough revenue on the lower volume. Shockingly, the rates did not go down when the drought was over.

The government knows all too well why we hate it. It just does not care.
 
2013-02-01 06:55:52 PM  

edmo: I thought they wanted me to drive a hybrid, burn less fuel, emit less pollution, and save the planet.

That is my contribution. Your turn guvnor.


"They" do. They also want you pay to maintain the infrastructure that you use just as much as you did before.

However, if it can't be done fairly, it shouldn't be done at all. The proposed solution is asinine.
 
2013-02-01 06:56:22 PM  
This thread is full of win...  hypocrisy!

The "gas tax" is really a "road tax" imposed to raise funds to keep our bridges and roads in repair.  It is charged on a per gallon basis, so generally speaking, the more a person drives on the roads the more they have to pay.  Hybrid owners consume less gas so they pay less in road taxes than their gas consuming counterparts, even when they drive the same or even more.

During the past couple of years the more liberal people on this board have stated they didn't mind paying taxes to keep their bridges and roads in good order.  I think most would agree that hybrid owners tend to be liberal.

Now that they are asked to pay taxes to support bridges and roads they are crying foul.

Now, they have decided that taxes are unfair.  Instead they want their own version of corporate welfare, where someone else subsidizes them.
 

The rest of us simply want hybrid owners to pay your fair share!
 
2013-02-01 06:59:49 PM  
Heavy vehicles damage our roads and we need money to fix them.  I know, let's get rid of the fuel tax, cut other taxes and then tax fuel efficient vehicles and things poor people buy. Why has no one thought of this before?
 
2013-02-01 07:00:04 PM  
This is an anti-tax Republican, right? Proposing a new tax? Okay, then.
 
2013-02-01 07:00:13 PM  

JeffreyScott: The rest of us simply want hybrid owners to pay your fair share!


Less gas used... less money needed to be spent killing brown people for their oil and cleaning up toxic slicks.

You guys can pay for your own evil hobbies.

You also conveniently left out the part where where the gas guzzlers wouldn't pay the state gas tax at all.
 
2013-02-01 07:00:42 PM  

Moonfisher: Tracking mileage on everyone would be ridiculous, but how about just taxing mileage on hybrid vehicles? Have them get their mileage read every registration and pay a tax per mile that is comparable to what they would have spent on gas tax. That would be fair.


BS, non hybrid vehicles should have to pay the same tax too.
 
2013-02-01 07:00:49 PM  

JeffreyScott: This thread is full of win...  hypocrisy!

The "gas tax" is really a "road tax" imposed to raise funds to keep our bridges and roads in repair.  It is charged on a per gallon basis, so generally speaking, the more a person drives on the roads the more they have to pay.  Hybrid owners consume less gas so they pay less in road taxes than their gas consuming counterparts, even when they drive the same or even more.

During the past couple of years the more liberal people on this board have stated they didn't mind paying taxes to keep their bridges and roads in good order.  I think most would agree that hybrid owners tend to be liberal.

Now that they are asked to pay taxes to support bridges and roads they are crying foul.

Now, they have decided that taxes are unfair.  Instead they want their own version of corporate welfare, where someone else subsidizes them.
 

The rest of us simply want hybrid owners to pay your fair share!



But that is exactly what isn't happening with this.  Don't point fingers about people being hypocrites without at least reading the article.

/I know, people who read tend to be liberal.
//Am I doing it right?
 
2013-02-01 07:03:19 PM  
This fee, combined with eliminating PBS, will finally put the long nightmare of our national debt behind us!

Oh, and a tax on arugula as well.....
 
2013-02-01 07:05:33 PM  

Supes: It's a mistake. Virginia has a 17.5 cent state gas tax. This proposal would get rid of that, impose a $100 fee on hybrid driver...


So based on a gas price of $3.30 per gallon, there's currently about a 5% gas tax.  Seems it's never been indexed for inflation as that would be too sensible.

So this great plan is to get rid of 5% tax on gas entirely and replace it with a 1% sales tax increase on E V E R Y T H I N G else.

Virginia voters are complete suckers if they fall for this.  The governor is raising your taxes.  He's just doing it in a sneaky way that he hopes the average voter won't realize is a big tax increase.

/And all those out-of-staters just driving through your state?  With no gas tax, they'll use your roads for free.  Brilliant!
 
2013-02-01 07:14:29 PM  

RandomRandom: Supes: It's a mistake. Virginia has a 17.5 cent state gas tax. This proposal would get rid of that, impose a $100 fee on hybrid driver...

So based on a gas price of $3.30 per gallon, there's currently about a 5% gas tax.  Seems it's never been indexed for inflation as that would be too sensible.

So this great plan is to get rid of 5% tax on gas entirely and replace it with a 1% sales tax increase on E V E R Y T H I N G else.

Virginia voters are complete suckers if they fall for this.  The governor is raising your taxes.  He's just doing it in a sneaky way that he hopes the average voter won't realize is a big tax increase.

/And all those out-of-staters just driving through your state?  With no gas tax, they'll use your roads for free.  Brilliant!


The sales tax increase for infrastructure purposes actually does make a little sense. This helps pay for the VA portion of the DC Metro as well. Plenty of folks in NoVa commute using the Metro every day, but pay very little in taxes to support it. Though granted a tax on the Metro passes would be more targeted and make more sense.

JeffreyScott: The rest of us simply want hybrid owners to pay your fair share!


I hope you're just trolling, or point missed completely. In the gas tax as it exists, hybrid owners don't pay their fair share. In the taxes proposed, non-hybrid owners don't pay their fair share. That's why so many people here are proposing a weight/mileage tax, so everyone does pay the right amount.
 
2013-02-01 07:14:49 PM  

APE992: A road usage tax is stupid, the heavier a vehicle is the more wear and tear they do to the road thus making SUVs, trucks, semis and other large vehicles the ones to impose the taxes on. Hybrids don't touch 10 ton vehicles by any stretch of the imagination.


they do pay more, they all get shiatty mileage and pay a lot more.
and a 3,781 lb chevy volt is nothing to sneeze at.
pay up for what you use you whiny farks.
 
2013-02-01 07:16:44 PM  

Ima_Lurker: Sounds a lot like good old fashioned toll roads.


Oh snap, you're on to me.
 
2013-02-01 07:17:04 PM  

Cagey B: Dixon Cider: Just charge them the smell their own farts.
(This will work as long as the South Park model is adhered too!)

This is about the level of literacy and original thought that I expect out of someone who's replaced their brain with South Park episodes.


Do you feel like a grown up now?
Good for you!!!


You keep on being better then everyone else, Sparkle Pants!
 
2013-02-01 07:17:23 PM  

JeffreyScott: This thread is full of win...  hypocrisy!

The "gas tax" is really a "road tax" imposed to raise funds to keep our bridges and roads in repair.  It is charged on a per gallon basis, so generally speaking, the more a person drives on the roads the more they have to pay.  Hybrid owners consume less gas so they pay less in road taxes than their gas consuming counterparts, even when they drive the same or even more.

During the past couple of years the more liberal people on this board have stated they didn't mind paying taxes to keep their bridges and roads in good order.  I think most would agree that hybrid owners tend to be liberal.

Now that they are asked to pay taxes to support bridges and roads they are crying foul.

Now, they have decided that taxes are unfair.  Instead they want their own version of corporate welfare, where someone else subsidizes them.
 

The rest of us simply want hybrid owners to pay your fair share!


It's actually possible that hybrid owners might be convinced to pay a fee to make up for lost revenue, but it's idiotic to expect them to do that while at the same time removing the existing gas tax.  In this case, hybrid owners aren't being asked to pay their fair share, they're being asked to be the only ones who pay any tax at all.  That's a fair share?

Anyway, what this really is is a "fark you, liberals" sop to the governor's base.
 
2013-02-01 07:19:15 PM  
Several of you and the legislature in question aren't very good at thinking.
For one, what's magical about use of the roads that we have to maintain ultimate fairness in taxing the use of them? If a hybrid uses 30% less gas than an SUV and they pay the same tax, given that hybrids constitute, what, 1%, wouldn't just administering this tax cost the same as trying to right this inequality?
Also, there's nothing magical about the term 'hybrid.' Jeep makes a hybrid. The Lexus hybrid cars get less mileage than a corolla. What, are we going to have some kind of formula taking into account the miles per gallon and the weight of the car?

If you don't have to pay to use the DMV or schools more than someone else, why is anybody spending energy to get the road tax equal to the nickel?

/$100 bucks? really?
 
2013-02-01 07:22:02 PM  

JeffreyScott: The rest of us simply want hybrid owners to pay your fair share!


Really?  You really think hybrid drivers are the reason your roads aren't adequate?  You really think it's unfair that they're not paying their fair share?

The amount you're subsidizing hybrid cars is absolutely tiny compared of the amount you're subsidizing heavy trucks. Yeah, trucks buy a lot of gas and pay a lot of gas tax, they also do 10 to 100 times as much damage to roadways as cars.  You read that right, 10 to 100 times.  They don't even begin to make up for that in the gas tax they pay.

Did you know that Virginia (just looked it up) has raised the truck weight limit pretty regularly for the past many decades.  More weight = more damage.  Heavier trucks pay more?  Noooooope.

/Typical conservative.  Gets pissed off every time he sees a liberal in their "freeloading hybrid".   Doesn't realize the actual problem with his state's road budget is being caused by freeloading private enterprise.
 
2013-02-01 07:23:07 PM  
http://www.askmen.com/top_10/cars_200/217_car_list.html

My G35 gets better mileage with a K&N than the bottom two. Once again it's politicians who aren't smart, because they represent the masses, and I more and more often think the middle part of that bell curve is REALLY high.
 
2013-02-01 07:29:47 PM  

mjbok: Jument: Yeah, that's stupid. Increase the gas tax. Those who burn more gas should pay more.

Because burning more gas is worse for the condition of the roads through usage how?


Less fuel efficient vehicles weigh more than hybrid cars. Seriously, are you on glue?
 
2013-02-01 07:36:21 PM  
They did the same thing in Oregon.  Not really that big of deal.  Hell, bike riders should pay a fee as well if they ride on public roads.
 
2013-02-01 07:38:23 PM  

Alphakronik: They did the same thing in Oregon.  Not really that big of deal.  Hell, bike riders should pay a fee as well if they ride on public roads.


Name one time a bicycle caused a road to need to be repaired. It's a heavy trucks that are causing all the damage.
 
2013-02-01 07:38:41 PM  

Supes: The sales tax increase for infrastructure purposes actually does make a little sense. This helps pay for the VA portion of the DC Metro as well. Plenty of folks in NoVa commute using the Metro every day, but pay very little in taxes to support it. Though granted a tax on the Metro passes would be more targeted and make more sense.


It's all NoVa, and NoVa doesn't want to pay.  Northern Virginian voters recently voted down a proposal to raise taxes in NoVa to pay for NoVa roads.  The roads in the rest of the state are reasonably adequate.  It's only in NoVa that the roads are a complete farkwad gridlock ever afternoon.

This proposal is a hugely regressive tax that builds Northern Virginia's roads on the backs of the working people in the rest of the state. It's a tax on everything and everybody in the state, just to pay for roads in one small corner.  He could maybe have gotten away with a services tax.  I read there there is currently no  services tax in the state.  Services taxes hit upper income brackets far more than lower.  He didn't do that, he put forward a sales tax increase, on every farking thing.

Then there's the fact that he's a Republican and this is a Net Tax Increase!  I figured McDonnell had presidential aspirations.  He's either written that off or he's just stupid.  Or maybe he thinks the voters are stupid enough to fall for this bait and switch.  He might push this through, but when it gets to presidential politics, this is going to be seen for the tax increase it is.  It's probably enough to get him nullified in the Republican primaries.

The attack ad writes itself.  "Because of McDonnell, out of state travelers now use Virginia's roads for free.  When he was Governor, McDonnell increased the sales tax, ON EVERYTHING, increasing the average tax rate of Virginian's by $x".

/The governor's political advisers are first rate morons.
 
2013-02-01 07:40:16 PM  
It seems wrong to have a consumption-based fee for non-hybrid drivers, but a fixed surcharge for hybrid drivers...it's disproportionately unfair to hybrid drivers who drive very little. Also:

shiatty hybrids get shiatty mileage. Early Chevy's Silverado hybrids clocked in at 16 mpg.

Efficient non-hybrids get good mileage. A $15k Hyunda Elantra gets 33 mpg (combined city/highway), beating nearly all hybrids. (Not counting plug-in electric hybrids.)
 
2013-02-01 07:41:34 PM  

Alphakronik: They did the same thing in Oregon.  Not really that big of deal.  Hell, bike riders should pay a fee as well if they ride on public roads.


No, they shouldn't, and you're stupid for suggesting otherwise. A bike does literally zero damage to a roadway. There is no justification for a tax on bicycles for the purpose of road maintenance.
 
2013-02-01 07:43:10 PM  

APE992: A road usage tax is stupid, the heavier a vehicle is the more wear and tear they do to the road thus making SUVs, trucks, semis and other large vehicles the ones to impose the taxes on. Hybrids don't

touch 10 ton vehicles by any stretch of the imagination.


They are substantially heavier than traditional vehicles of the same mpg though.  They tend to be deluxe models(heavier) with extensive battery packs(more weight).

Personally, I'd just kick the gas tax up a cent or so in order to incentive people driving efficient vehicles a touch more, and eat the extra as a bit of a subsidy for saving the earth.  At least until a substantial fraction are avoiding gas taxes entirely, via plug-in hybrids and EVs, propane and natural gas, etc...

happyhackered: Why not tax the Honda Fit or Toyota Echo which get well into the 30 mpg range for not using gas like an SUV? How about mopeds? Tax them!


Damage to roadways basically goes up by the square of the weight of the vehicle.  IE even if you had fleets and fleets of mopeds constantly going over the road, you'll see less damage than a single fully loaded semi trailer every hour.  Weather wear would be faster.

The Fit/Echo are actually lighter vehicles; so less damage.  Hybrids tend to be heavier than vehicles of their size range, before you figure that the components reduce gas consumption below average for that size.
 
2013-02-01 07:44:16 PM  

LavenderWolf: Alphakronik: They did the same thing in Oregon.  Not really that big of deal.  Hell, bike riders should pay a fee as well if they ride on public roads.

No, they shouldn't, and you're stupid for suggesting otherwise. A bike does literally zero damage to a roadway. There is no justification for a tax on bicycles for the purpose of road maintenance.


Bikes require additional traffic control measures, like bike lanes, signs about bikes being present, etc.  There is a cost.  Try again.
 
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