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(Slate)   So it turns out, mobile quarterbacks in general don't get hurt more than their statue-like counterparts   (slate.com ) divider line
    More: Interesting, Colin Kaepernick, passing pocket, Bill Polian, Joe Flacco, Daunte Culpepper, Football Outsiders, midseason replacement, quarterback sneak  
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2071 clicks; posted to Sports » on 01 Feb 2013 at 12:40 PM (3 years ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-02-01 11:42:47 AM  
Does it take into account variations in styles or changes in safety equipment or even trends in defensive strategy? No?
 
2013-02-01 12:31:03 PM  
There is no way you have enough data points to prove that.  Based on the minimal differences that link shows and the small sample size, that has to be within the margin of error.
 
2013-02-01 12:46:04 PM  
IIRC, Steve Young never got injured the whole time he ran like a running back, but when coaches finally convinced him to start hook-sliding (same for Rich Gannon, I believe).

/DRTFA
 
2013-02-01 12:47:09 PM  
Think about it this way... Mobile quarterback runs more, while a non-mobile quarterback will throw more passes. On nearly every single run, the mobile QB will take a hit (not every, but most), while on the majority of the passes, the QB will not be hit.

You have to remember that a lot of the stationary QBs injuries were caused while they were running, and nearly all were injured while getting hit. A mobile QB is going to get hit more, so yes, they will get injured more. Very few mobile quarterbacks last long (even Steve Young wasn't nearly as mobile as today's mobile quarterbacks).
 
2013-02-01 01:00:05 PM  
I see ignoring the statistical analysis for everyone's  personal opinion is starting strong.
 
2013-02-01 01:02:56 PM  
mobile QB's have the advantage of sliding or going out of bounds more often, pocket QB's have the disadvantage of getting hit more often and not being able to get away from defenders

that said, cumulative injuries have less to do with why the league still favors pocket QB's than the rarity of QB's able to be successful dual threats against good defenses and the tendency that pocket QB's play more games over the span of their careers without physical wearing out
 
2013-02-01 01:03:08 PM  
I remember when Steve McNair didn't go out into the field without having at least three injuries he's sustained the week before.
 
2013-02-01 01:03:33 PM  
not sure anyone is saying qbs that scramble 4 times a game when facing man coverage on pass plays where all the DBs have their backs to the qb are significantly more likely to get hurt. those are generally extremely safe rushing plays for qbs and have always been so.
people are generally questioning what will happen when a team runs the read-option (or other designed runs) and the qb keeps 9 times a game and the nfl defense has bothered to scheme for it. if your qb isn't built like cam newton you will run into problems fairly quickly, and not even cam will be running it very much at all once he is no longer a spry 23 year old. there is a reason the average career for an nfl runningback is 2.5 years.
 
2013-02-01 01:03:45 PM  

Incog_Neeto: I see ignoring the statistical analysis for everyone's  personal opinion is starting strong.


Well the problem is that you can't just cherry pick certain quarterbacks for your analysis. And it is hard to do a statistical analysis due to the fact there is no quarterback that is 100% mobile or 100% stationary. For example, in 2010 Rodgers got injured on a scramble, yet Rodgers is seen as a stationary quarterback. Does that count as an injury for stationary quarterbacks or for mobile quarterbacks?
 
2013-02-01 01:03:54 PM  
Mobile/running QBs that played this year:

Vick: Injured
RG3: Injured
Wilson: Healthy
Kaepernic: Healthy (only 9 games played)
Newton: Healthy

So that's 2/5 injured. Last year 1/3 got hurt Vick vs. Tebow and Newton.

Really, if you want to look at whether QBs that run frequently are more likely to be injured, look at how often running backs are hurt. Even 'healthy' RBs typically have a short shelf life compared to many positions. Even without a severe injury.

Now realize QBs typically wear smaller or fewer pads, and have less muscle to dampen blows. The one plus they have is that they're less often tackled in heavy traffic than RBs.
 
2013-02-01 01:06:31 PM  

machoprogrammer: Incog_Neeto: I see ignoring the statistical analysis for everyone's  personal opinion is starting strong.

Well the problem is that you can't just cherry pick certain quarterbacks for your analysis. And it is hard to do a statistical analysis due to the fact there is no quarterback that is 100% mobile or 100% stationary. For example, in 2010 Rodgers got injured on a scramble, yet Rodgers is seen as a stationary quarterback. Does that count as an injury for stationary quarterbacks or for mobile quarterbacks?


Tim Tebow - 100% mobile.
 
2013-02-01 01:08:16 PM  
If more quarterbacks used recliners, then they would only get hurt while trying to get a beer.
 
2013-02-01 01:15:25 PM  

Deneb81: Mobile/running QBs that played this year:

Vick: Injured
RG3: Injured
Wilson: Healthy
Kaepernic: Healthy (only 9 games played)
Newton: Healthy

So that's 2/5 injured. Last year 1/3 got hurt Vick vs. Tebow and Newton.

Really, if you want to look at whether QBs that run frequently are more likely to be injured, look at how often running backs are hurt. Even 'healthy' RBs typically have a short shelf life compared to many positions. Even without a severe injury.

Now realize QBs typically wear smaller or fewer pads, and have less muscle to dampen blows. The one plus they have is that they're less often tackled in heavy traffic than RBs.


qbs wear more pads.
compare a picture of frank gore or ray rice versus mike vick. gore and rice has shoulder pads, and that's it.
they may have thigh pads about the size of pack of playing cards if they feel like on a given day, but often they don't bother.
vick is kitted out like member of the infantry.
 
2013-02-01 01:16:33 PM  

Choo-Choo Bear: IIRC, Steve Young never got injured the whole time he ran like a running back, but when coaches finally convinced him to start hook-sliding (same for Rich Gannon, I believe).

/DRTFA


I guess multiple concussions don't count as injuries.  Ladies and gentlemen of FARK, I now present to you the Roger Goodell sponsored NFL representative in this thread.
 
2013-02-01 01:19:32 PM  

relcec: Deneb81: Mobile/running QBs that played this year:

Vick: Injured
RG3: Injured
Wilson: Healthy
Kaepernic: Healthy (only 9 games played)
Newton: Healthy

So that's 2/5 injured. Last year 1/3 got hurt Vick vs. Tebow and Newton.

Really, if you want to look at whether QBs that run frequently are more likely to be injured, look at how often running backs are hurt. Even 'healthy' RBs typically have a short shelf life compared to many positions. Even without a severe injury.

Now realize QBs typically wear smaller or fewer pads, and have less muscle to dampen blows. The one plus they have is that they're less often tackled in heavy traffic than RBs.

qbs wear more pads.
compare a picture of frank gore or ray rice versus mike vick. gore and rice has shoulder pads, and that's it.
they may have thigh pads about the size of pack of playing cards if they feel like on a given day, but often they don't bother.
vick is kitted out like member of the infantry.


Rice wears big thigh pads regularly. I believe after taking a hit to the leg once.
 
2013-02-01 01:19:39 PM  

machoprogrammer: Well the problem is that you can't just cherry pick certain quarterbacks for your analysis. And it is hard to do a statistical analysis due to the fact there is no quarterback that is 100% mobile or 100% stationary. For example, in 2010 Rodgers got injured on a scramble, yet Rodgers is seen as a stationary quarterback. Does that count as an injury for stationary quarterbacks or for mobile quarterbacks?


In what league is Rodgers seen as a stationary QB? He's run for 200+ yards in the last five seasons. And that doesn't even count the 20+ times a game he runs a bootleg or runs for his life because Peppers/Allen/Suh is chasing him.

Drew Brees is a stationary QB. Aaron Rodgers is not.
 
2013-02-01 01:19:54 PM  
I haven't run advanced regression on any data, but I'm going to say most of the variance in QB injuries could be tied to how good your O-line is...
 
2013-02-01 01:24:05 PM  

machoprogrammer: Think about it this way... Mobile quarterback runs more, while a non-mobile quarterback will throw more passes. On nearly every single run, the mobile QB will take a hit (not every, but most), while on the majority of the passes, the QB will not be hit.

You have to remember that a lot of the stationary QBs injuries were caused while they were running, and nearly all were injured while getting hit. A mobile QB is going to get hit more, so yes, they will get injured more. Very few mobile quarterbacks last long (even Steve Young wasn't nearly as mobile as today's mobile quarterbacks).


On the other hand, "mobile" quarterbacks often only run when the play breaks down or if there's nobody open -- the main difference is that a Kaepernick might not wait as long to run as a Drew Bledsoe.  Also, the mobile QB is more likely to get into an area of the field with fewer (and smaller) defenders, while the old-fashioned QB is more likely to run straight ahead, right into the D-line.  Lastly when a mobile QB runs and is able to pick up a bit of speed, he's mainly worried about the tackler within his range of vision, and thus is able to slide / brace for when he's about to get hit; when a slower pocket passer is running from a broken play because the pocket is breaking up, he's going to be vulnerable to defenders on all sides, so you might end up with a Theismann situation.
 
2013-02-01 01:29:39 PM  
Yeah but do you want a Kaepernick who can't run because he's been injured or a Tom Brady who can't run because he's been injured? Running QBs rely on their legs far more than pocket passers so there are more types of injuries that can keep them from being effective.

Just saying.
 
2013-02-01 01:30:27 PM  
Isn't Mark Sanchez a mobile QB?  At least one that runs into his own teammates?
 
2013-02-01 01:30:53 PM  

machoprogrammer: Think about it this way... Mobile quarterback runs more, while a non-mobile quarterback will throw more passes. On nearly every single run, the mobile QB will take a hit (not every, but most), while on the majority of the passes, the QB will not be hit.


Unless you play behind the offensive line of the Bears.
 
2013-02-01 01:33:00 PM  

Jubeebee: In what league is Rodgers seen as a stationary QB? He's run for 200+ yards in the last five seasons. And that doesn't even count the 20+ times a game he runs a bootleg or runs for his life because Peppers/Allen/Suh is chasing him.


The league where one of the guys playing against Aaron Rodgers ran for 181 in the same game and another rookie ran for 800. In Aaron Rodgers entire career he's never even run half that in a season.

/just saying
//Rodgers isn't a "running QB" he's a "QB who will sometimes run if the defense makes it painfully easy for him"
 
2013-02-01 01:35:21 PM  

Incog_Neeto: I see ignoring the statistical analysis for everyone's  personal opinion is starting strong.


I'm sure some of them started to read the article but then that whole TL;DR set in.  Anecdotes and conjecture for for everyone!

What they did hint at, though, for more in-depth analysis is figuring out what the root of the injury parity is besides the effect of sacks.  At what rate do scramblers get injured while staying in the pocket, or in open-field running, or in back field running?  At what rate do pocket QBs get injured in the same scenarios?

Vick, the scrambler with whom I'm most familiar, seems to have gotten most of his injuries as the result of dumptruck-strong hits in the pocket right around the time of release.  But that's just anecdotal and not even a result of watching a lot of the Eags.
 
2013-02-01 01:35:39 PM  

cettin: I haven't run advanced regression on any data, but I'm going to say most of the variance in QB injuries could be tied to how good your O-line is...


Exactly.  A pocket QB always has the risk of getting blindsided and going out on a stretcher with a Theisman level injury.  However with an offensive line like the one Brady has played behind for a good part of his career, you can sit back there, read an article in the WSJ, check the email on the phone, and then think about how maybe you should give some thought to passing the ball sometime today.

If you want to test the theory you need to control for offensive lines.  Stick Vick and Brady behind the same offensive line and Brady is going to have a longer career with fewer injuries, while Vick is busy being killed by linebackers on QB draws or speed options.

A pocket QB who is a precise passer with a fast release and a strong offensive line really the variance when you go to pass.  That is what is key in terms of winning.
 
2013-02-01 01:35:39 PM  

Rapmaster2000: machoprogrammer: Think about it this way... Mobile quarterback runs more, while a non-mobile quarterback will throw more passes. On nearly every single run, the mobile QB will take a hit (not every, but most), while on the majority of the passes, the QB will not be hit.

Unless you play behind the offensive line of the Bears.


The Jets offensive line called, but Greg McElroy is too concussed to pick up the phone.

/kid got sacked 12 TIMES in his first start.
 
2013-02-01 01:39:19 PM  
seems like their argument doesn't take the defense into account much. The defense of today (especially, imo, the modern linebacker) isn't the same as it was even a few years ago.
 
2013-02-01 01:42:08 PM  
The Ravens should hit Kaepernic when he fakes after handing off.
 
2013-02-01 01:42:42 PM  

qsblues: I guess multiple concussions don't count as injuries.


I'm sorry, please back up your comment with facts.  Please list all concussions Steve Young received (reportedly seven over his career) while running with the ball like a running back.  Certainly it was neither of the two in 1999.

Choo-Choo Bear: Steve Young never got injured the whole time he ran like a running back


However, upon reflection, I do think am mistaken - I was at a playoff game against the Eagles in the muddy rain and IIRC, he broke several ribs en route to scoring a rushing touchdown.
 
2013-02-01 01:42:43 PM  

ha-ha-guy: cettin: I haven't run advanced regression on any data, but I'm going to say most of the variance in QB injuries could be tied to how good your O-line is...

Exactly.  A pocket QB always has the risk of getting blindsided and going out on a stretcher with a Theisman level injury.  However with an offensive line like the one Brady has played behind for a good part of his career, you can sit back there, read an article in the WSJ, check the email on the phone, and then think about how maybe you should give some thought to passing the ball sometime today.

If you want to test the theory you need to control for offensive lines.  Stick Vick and Brady behind the same offensive line and Brady is going to have a longer career with fewer injuries, while Vick is busy being killed by linebackers on QB draws or speed options.

A pocket QB who is a precise passer with a fast release and a strong offensive line really the variance when you go to pass.  That is what is key in terms of winning.


Good offensive lines preventing sacks are the reason QBs stay healthy. Which is why two "pocket passers" can have wildly different injury histories. Look at two guys in the NFC East: Eli Manning and Tony Romo. They've both been in the league roughly the same amount of time and are both not known for their running production. One has never missed a game and the other has had his ribs broken so many times that his intestines are held in with duct tape.
 
2013-02-01 01:49:04 PM  

Treygreen13: Jubeebee: In what league is Rodgers seen as a stationary QB? He's run for 200+ yards in the last five seasons. And that doesn't even count the 20+ times a game he runs a bootleg or runs for his life because Peppers/Allen/Suh is chasing him.

The league where one of the guys playing against Aaron Rodgers ran for 181 in the same game and another rookie ran for 800. In Aaron Rodgers entire career he's never even run half that in a season.

/just saying
//Rodgers isn't a "running QB" he's a "QB who will sometimes run if the defense makes it painfully easy for him"


I just think putting Rodgers in the "stationary QB" category with guys like Flacco, Brees, and the Mannings is stretching the definition pretty far. Guys like Kaep, Vick, and Newton are dual threat QBs, and they run a lot more than Rodgers, sure. But there is a big middle ground between Kaepernick and Peyton.
 
2013-02-01 01:54:18 PM  

Jubeebee: Treygreen13: Jubeebee: In what league is Rodgers seen as a stationary QB? He's run for 200+ yards in the last five seasons. And that doesn't even count the 20+ times a game he runs a bootleg or runs for his life because Peppers/Allen/Suh is chasing him.

The league where one of the guys playing against Aaron Rodgers ran for 181 in the same game and another rookie ran for 800. In Aaron Rodgers entire career he's never even run half that in a season.

/just saying
//Rodgers isn't a "running QB" he's a "QB who will sometimes run if the defense makes it painfully easy for him"

I just think putting Rodgers in the "stationary QB" category with guys like Flacco, Brees, and the Mannings is stretching the definition pretty far. Guys like Kaep, Vick, and Newton are dual threat QBs, and they run a lot more than Rodgers, sure. But there is a big middle ground between Kaepernick and Peyton.


I guess you could look at it in degrees of how likely they are to rush given the same playcall and read. I guess part of the problem there is that the difference between laying down for a sack, scrambling for 10 seconds and then finally going down, or running forward and immediately being plastered at the line is irrelevant to the statkeeper. It's just a sack. Also, seeing that everyone abandoned the middle of the field and you trot for 6 yards and then slide is exactly the same as taking the snap and just pinballing through the defense. Then you have to actually go back and watch the plays and even then you don't know what the original call was, or if the QB running would have been safer than lying down for a sack.
 
2013-02-01 01:54:59 PM  
To argue against  myself a bit, there are two issues with the "mobile QB":
1) The reason they're "mobile" is that they're generally smaller and lighter than your prototypical pocket passer -- Vick is 6'0", 215lb; RG3 is 6'2", 217lb; Russell Wilson is 5'11", 206.  Compare that with Brady (6'4", 225) and either of the Mannings (both over 6'4").  That might work against them.  Kaepernick is pretty big though -- apparently he's 6'4", so he might be able to take more hits than some of the others.
2) There comes a point when the scramblers can't run the way they used to; it might take a couple of hard hits before they realize they don't have that je ne sais quoi any more.  You saw that with McNabb and McNair (never noticed that alliteration before -- weird), who transformed from scramblers to pretty successful pocket passers, and to a lesser degree with Vick.  I don't think that discredits scrambling -- that's just playing within your ability.  It's like a fastball pitcher learning better control and mixing in more off-speed pitches at the tail end of his career.
 
2013-02-01 02:01:29 PM  

ha-ha-guy: cettin: I haven't run advanced regression on any data, but I'm going to say most of the variance in QB injuries could be tied to how good your O-line is...

Exactly.  A pocket QB always has the risk of getting blindsided and going out on a stretcher with a Theisman level injury.  However with an offensive line like the one Brady has played behind for a good part of his career, you can sit back there, read an article in the WSJ, check the email on the phone, and then think about how maybe you should give some thought to passing the ball sometime today.

If you want to test the theory you need to control for offensive lines.  Stick Vick and Brady behind the same offensive line and Brady is going to have a longer career with fewer injuries, while Vick is busy being killed by linebackers on QB draws or speed options.

A pocket QB who is a precise passer with a fast release and a strong offensive line really the variance when you go to pass.  That is what is key in terms of winning.


And don't discount the guys who may be forced into the "mobile" category just because they are running for their lives.
 
2013-02-01 02:08:36 PM  
Note: these are regular season only stats.
Aaron Rodgers averages 3.6 runs per game.  He averages 4.8 yards per attempt.  He averages 17 yards per game.
Cam Newton averages 7.9 runs per game.  He averages 5.7 yards per attempt.  He averages 45.2 yards per game.
Colin Kaepernick averages 7.5 runs per game (counting games he's started and the first Rams game).  He averages 6.6 yards per attempt overall.  He averages 31.9 yards per game overall.  (The stats here are a bit wonky.)
Rodgers is definitely not a running QB, but he is a QB who can run.  I wouldn't count him as a dual threat QB but I would not call him stationary.  He's definitely in the middle ground.
 
2013-02-01 02:45:28 PM  
Wouldn't a better data set be to examine in depth what injuries are caused by what types of plays, and how often those types of plays result in varying degrees of injury (playable, loss of several plays, loss of an entire game, multi-game, and season or longer injuries)?

A pocket quarterback getting injured on a scrambling broken play where he is running is not the same as him being hit while expecting it in the pocket.
 
2013-02-01 02:52:17 PM  

Arkanaut: On the other hand, "mobile" quarterbacks often only run when the play breaks down or if there's nobody open -- the main difference is that a Kaepernick might not wait as long to run as a Drew Bledsoe.


Pretty sure Drew is about to figure out he could've run on ANY of his plays right about... oh fark it, who'm I kidding, he'll NEVER figure that out.

\he's gonna have to wear a Tshirt saying "I'm not the statue" if anyone ever makes a statue of him
 
2013-02-01 03:06:03 PM  

Jubeebee: Treygreen13: Jubeebee: In what league is Rodgers seen as a stationary QB? He's run for 200+ yards in the last five seasons. And that doesn't even count the 20+ times a game he runs a bootleg or runs for his life because Peppers/Allen/Suh is chasing him.

The league where one of the guys playing against Aaron Rodgers ran for 181 in the same game and another rookie ran for 800. In Aaron Rodgers entire career he's never even run half that in a season.

/just saying
//Rodgers isn't a "running QB" he's a "QB who will sometimes run if the defense makes it painfully easy for him"

I just think putting Rodgers in the "stationary QB" category with guys like Flacco, Brees, and the Mannings is stretching the definition pretty far. Guys like Kaep, Vick, and Newton are dual threat QBs, and they run a lot more than Rodgers, sure. But there is a big middle ground between Kaepernick and Peyton.


Exactly. There are really more 3 types of qb's with a lot of grey: Pocket, Scrambler, Running. Rogers, Roethlesberger, Romo, Freeman and Alex Smith are scramblers and the tend to get injured a lot. Seems like Pocket QB's don't miss a game here or there, but miss whole seasons and scramblers seem to miss a few games a season or have a major nagging injury that they play with the whole season. OF course i didn't do a statistical analysis so I could be way off on the injuries.
 
rka
2013-02-01 03:23:07 PM  

Deneb81: Mobile/running QBs that played this year:

Vick: Injured
RG3: Injured
Wilson: Healthy
Kaepernic: Healthy (only 9 games played)
Newton: Healthy

So that's 2/5 injured. Last year 1/3 got hurt Vick vs. Tebow and Newton.

Really, if you want to look at whether QBs that run frequently are more likely to be injured, look at how often running backs are hurt. Even 'healthy' RBs typically have a short shelf life compared to many positions. Even without a severe injury.

Now realize QBs typically wear smaller or fewer pads, and have less muscle to dampen blows. The one plus they have is that they're less often tackled in heavy traffic than RBs.


Tim Tebow was hurt in the playoff game versus the Patriots. The typical "sternum" injury. He finished the game, but he was definitely hurt and the reports were at the time that if the Broncos had won that game Tebow probably would not have been able to play.
 
2013-02-01 03:44:53 PM  
While I get where they are going with their stats, I would much rather see length of career stats. A pocket qb would seemingly have a longer shelf life as arm strength deteriorates far less than speed.

I dont see a running qb coming back from what Peyton Manning suffered.
 
2013-02-01 03:57:11 PM  

Shoop008: Jubeebee: Treygreen13: Jubeebee: In what league is Rodgers seen as a stationary QB? He's run for 200+ yards in the last five seasons. And that doesn't even count the 20+ times a game he runs a bootleg or runs for his life because Peppers/Allen/Suh is chasing him.

The league where one of the guys playing against Aaron Rodgers ran for 181 in the same game and another rookie ran for 800. In Aaron Rodgers entire career he's never even run half that in a season.

/just saying
//Rodgers isn't a "running QB" he's a "QB who will sometimes run if the defense makes it painfully easy for him"

I just think putting Rodgers in the "stationary QB" category with guys like Flacco, Brees, and the Mannings is stretching the definition pretty far. Guys like Kaep, Vick, and Newton are dual threat QBs, and they run a lot more than Rodgers, sure. But there is a big middle ground between Kaepernick and Peyton.

Exactly. There are really more 3 types of qb's with a lot of grey: Pocket, Scrambler, Running. Rogers, Roethlesberger, Romo, Freeman and Alex Smith are scramblers and the tend to get injured a lot. Seems like Pocket QB's don't miss a game here or there, but miss whole seasons and scramblers seem to miss a few games a season or have a major nagging injury that they play with the whole season. OF course i didn't do a statistical analysis so I could be way off on the injuries.


It seems like being a scrambling QB has kept Romo from being injured rather than increased the total number of injuries. Hard to say that he would have avoided injury taking sacks. His major injury that put him out for the most time was when he stood in the pocket and just got blasted and broke his collarbone. The other one that made him miss significant time was when he hit his hand on a helmet and broke his finger. He played through the broken ribs and punctured lung although I cannot find what play brought that about.
 
2013-02-01 04:20:53 PM  
Really?

How many 'mobile quarterbacks' last a whole season?  How about two or three years in a row?  Anyone?

(Warren Moon or Steve Young are the only two that come to mind)
 
2013-02-01 04:23:11 PM  

kukukupo: Really?

How many 'mobile quarterbacks' last a whole season?  How about two or three years in a row?  Anyone?

(Warren Moon or Steve Young are the only two that come to mind)


Yeah, but percentagewise, how many regular quarterbacks last through a whole season?

/Elway also was pretty durable and mobile.
 
2013-02-01 04:32:36 PM  

Treygreen13: Shoop008: Jubeebee: Treygreen13: Jubeebee: In what league is Rodgers seen as a stationary QB? He's run for 200+ yards in the last five seasons. And that doesn't even count the 20+ times a game he runs a bootleg or runs for his life because Peppers/Allen/Suh is chasing him.

The league where one of the guys playing against Aaron Rodgers ran for 181 in the same game and another rookie ran for 800. In Aaron Rodgers entire career he's never even run half that in a season.

/just saying
//Rodgers isn't a "running QB" he's a "QB who will sometimes run if the defense makes it painfully easy for him"

I just think putting Rodgers in the "stationary QB" category with guys like Flacco, Brees, and the Mannings is stretching the definition pretty far. Guys like Kaep, Vick, and Newton are dual threat QBs, and they run a lot more than Rodgers, sure. But there is a big middle ground between Kaepernick and Peyton.

Exactly. There are really more 3 types of qb's with a lot of grey: Pocket, Scrambler, Running. Rogers, Roethlesberger, Romo, Freeman and Alex Smith are scramblers and the tend to get injured a lot. Seems like Pocket QB's don't miss a game here or there, but miss whole seasons and scramblers seem to miss a few games a season or have a major nagging injury that they play with the whole season. OF course i didn't do a statistical analysis so I could be way off on the injuries.

It seems like being a scrambling QB has kept Romo from being injured rather than increased the total number of injuries. Hard to say that he would have avoided injury taking sacks. His major injury that put him out for the most time was when he stood in the pocket and just got blasted and broke his collarbone. The other one that made him miss significant time was when he hit his hand on a helmet and broke his finger. He played through the broken ribs and punctured lung although I cannot find what play brought that about.


Romo, Ben, Cutler, and Rodgers are some the QBs that I think are only alive today because they can run out of trouble. And typically by December they either have missed time and/or are snorting crystallized Toradol on the sidelines. How much of that running is necessity because of horrid offensive lines and how much is natural playstyle is hard to say.
 
2013-02-01 04:34:29 PM  

kukukupo: Really?

How many 'mobile quarterbacks' last a whole season?  How about two or three years in a row?  Anyone?

(Warren Moon or Steve Young are the only two that come to mind)


Steve Young was not even that mobile compared to RG3 or Kaepernick

The most rushing attempts in a season he had was 76 (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/Y/YounSt00.htm)

Kaepernick had 63 in just the amount of time he had played (http://espn.go.com/nfl/player/stats/_/id/14001/colin-kaepernick)

and RG3 had 120 (http://espn.go.com/nfl/player/stats/_/id/14875/robert-griffin-iii). Nearly double Young's highest total.
 
2013-02-01 04:39:23 PM  

Jubeebee: Treygreen13: Shoop008: Jubeebee: Treygreen13: Jubeebee: In what league is Rodgers seen as a stationary QB? He's run for 200+ yards in the last five seasons. And that doesn't even count the 20+ times a game he runs a bootleg or runs for his life because Peppers/Allen/Suh is chasing him.

The league where one of the guys playing against Aaron Rodgers ran for 181 in the same game and another rookie ran for 800. In Aaron Rodgers entire career he's never even run half that in a season.

/just saying
//Rodgers isn't a "running QB" he's a "QB who will sometimes run if the defense makes it painfully easy for him"

I just think putting Rodgers in the "stationary QB" category with guys like Flacco, Brees, and the Mannings is stretching the definition pretty far. Guys like Kaep, Vick, and Newton are dual threat QBs, and they run a lot more than Rodgers, sure. But there is a big middle ground between Kaepernick and Peyton.

Exactly. There are really more 3 types of qb's with a lot of grey: Pocket, Scrambler, Running. Rogers, Roethlesberger, Romo, Freeman and Alex Smith are scramblers and the tend to get injured a lot. Seems like Pocket QB's don't miss a game here or there, but miss whole seasons and scramblers seem to miss a few games a season or have a major nagging injury that they play with the whole season. OF course i didn't do a statistical analysis so I could be way off on the injuries.

It seems like being a scrambling QB has kept Romo from being injured rather than increased the total number of injuries. Hard to say that he would have avoided injury taking sacks. His major injury that put him out for the most time was when he stood in the pocket and just got blasted and broke his collarbone. The other one that made him miss significant time was when he hit his hand on a helmet and broke his finger. He played through the broken ribs and punctured lung although I cannot find what play brought that about.

Romo, Ben, Cutler, and Rodgers are some the QBs that I think are o ...


In order...
Romo: Bad offensive line, pretty much his entire career based on escaping pressure
Ben: Bad offensive line, built like a truck and large enough to extend plays
Cutler: Bad offensive line
Rodgers: A combination of bad offensive line and the ability to read pressure/openings so well.
 
2013-02-01 04:44:27 PM  

Arkanaut: kukukupo: Really?

How many 'mobile quarterbacks' last a whole season?  How about two or three years in a row?  Anyone?

(Warren Moon or Steve Young are the only two that come to mind)

Yeah, but percentagewise, how many regular quarterbacks last through a whole season?

/Elway also was pretty durable and mobile.


Cunningham
 
2013-02-01 04:56:24 PM  

Brubold: Yeah but do you want a Kaepernick who can't run because he's been injured or a Tom Brady who can't run because he's been injured? Running QBs rely on their legs far more than pocket passers so there are more types of injuries that can keep them from being effective.

Just saying.


THIS. Plus throw in aging. There aren't many older mobile qbs in the league for a reason.
 
2013-02-01 04:56:49 PM  
Omar Bashir is a PhD candidate in the Department of Politics at Princeton University.
Chris Oates has a PhD in International Relations from Oxford University.


They must be experts on the subject...
 
2013-02-01 06:11:23 PM  

cettin: ha-ha-guy: cettin: I haven't run advanced regression on any data, but I'm going to say most of the variance in QB injuries could be tied to how good your O-line is...

Exactly.  A pocket QB always has the risk of getting blindsided and going out on a stretcher with a Theisman level injury.  However with an offensive line like the one Brady has played behind for a good part of his career, you can sit back there, read an article in the WSJ, check the email on the phone, and then think about how maybe you should give some thought to passing the ball sometime today.

If you want to test the theory you need to control for offensive lines.  Stick Vick and Brady behind the same offensive line and Brady is going to have a longer career with fewer injuries, while Vick is busy being killed by linebackers on QB draws or speed options.

A pocket QB who is a precise passer with a fast release and a strong offensive line really the variance when you go to pass.  That is what is key in terms of winning.

And don't discount the guys who may be forced into the "mobile" category just because they are running for their lives.


For the underlined, see Tarkenton, Fran.
 
2013-02-01 06:30:50 PM  
Haven't read comments so I'm a douche, but why is missing a start the measure of injury?  The entire study is flawed because it doesn't factor a concept that's pretty universal in a league with no guaranteed contracts, a "macho" play through it attitude, and a very real threat of losing your job if you sit out a game, even if you're injured.

Maybe this study tracks SERIOUS injury that includes coaching decisions, but it doesn't address the question of whether or not a mobile QB is succeptible to performance-deteriorating injuries (not just injuries that cause a misssed start) or a shortened career as a result.
 
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