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(The New York Times)   Congratulations law students. You're now in the elite employment ranks of Future Starbucks Baristas, along with all those liberal arts masters degree holders   (nytimes.com ) divider line
    More: Obvious, arts, master's degrees, University of Chicago Law School, law schools, rankings, upward mobility, class size, student debt  
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12600 clicks; posted to Main » on 31 Jan 2013 at 1:01 PM (3 years ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



Voting Results (Smartest)
View Voting Results: Smartest and Funniest

2013-01-31 01:22:21 PM  
3 votes:
No field of study is safe, so long as any company with no sense of integrity whatsoever will move its business to hire the cheapest labor force possible in any field.
2013-01-31 01:53:02 PM  
2 votes:

Weaver95: nice to see law students in the same boat as the rest of us.  c'mon down to the protests and get your fair share of abuse!


There is legal crisis already upon this country that nbody really recognizes because they all hate lawyers so much.  When My Crim Law Professor graduated from Law School, he had about $7,000 in debt and took a decent paying job as a Public Defender because that's where his passion lay, in public service not profit.  I would have followed that same path when I graduated (he offered me a ltter of recommendation to any local PD's office, and his letters were as good as an automatic job offer because of his reputation).  The only problem was, I had 100K in Law School (only-undergrad was from savings) debt and the PD's office only paid about 40K/year  -a salary that would have made it impossible to support my wife and kid and pay my student loans and live in anything  but in a crackhouse  anywhere in the greater Chicago Area.

The same fact pattern  is making it nearly impossible for non-profits and advocacy groups to get any legal talent at all these days, and since they are often the folks on the front lines of vindicating your civil rights, keeping you out of jail, and generally standing up to "the Man", this is a very bad thing for everyone, whether they realize it or not.
2013-01-31 01:42:59 PM  
2 votes:

doyner: Chach: When you're a 3.1/158 and someone is still offering you admission, that is BAD

Unless of course you're a 3.1/158.


They're not doing you a favor when you wind up jobless and a quarter mill in debt three years later.
2013-01-31 12:45:33 PM  
2 votes:

RexTalionis: I did law because working as a programmer/IT technician seems like soul-crushing work.

Anyway, is anyone interested in hiring an IT guy who knows his way around the law?


shiat - i'm STILL looking for a job.  the IT field is pretty thin right now.
2013-01-31 11:53:57 AM  
2 votes:

vernonFL: My sister hasn't even graduated law school yet and she already has a job with the local DAs office.


Are you sure she said "job" and not "file"?
2013-01-31 11:37:18 AM  
2 votes:
I know they won't give you your money back if you go to law school but don't get a job as a lawyer, but what about your soul? Do they at least return that?
2013-01-31 11:34:25 AM  
2 votes:
Not me, I'm pretty and special and will graduate with money just raining down on me like some sort of cash bukkake.
2013-01-31 08:27:30 PM  
1 vote:

ringersol: Because People in power are Stupid: "Why don't they just work in Intellectual Property where they can make money by stealing other people's ideas and patenting them? "

Patent lawyers tend to hold one or more engineering degrees.
And when you have one or more engineering degrees, well, you don't work at Starbucks much.


... and rarely get laid.  Well, rarely except for hideoids and paid staff.
2013-01-31 03:42:48 PM  
1 vote:
And my slashies aren't working.I feel that it is just like IT: the more you know, the more marketable you are. I have an archaic degree in computers, but it is paying dividends in my engineering classes because I have the background to understand where the material is coming from. The more languages and autocad programs I learn, the more likely I am to find a position at a company doing something I want to do, not some form of vending machine repair. Like the positions several of my professors left when they went back for their doctorates.the same is true for lawyers: the more masteries you have, the meter you look to potential employers. /my 2 cents
2013-01-31 03:03:51 PM  
1 vote:

cig-mkr: The country needs to go back to apprenticeships like electricians, machinist, masons, carpenters, auto mechanics and such.
You probably won't eat steak every night, but you wouldn't starve either.


This can't be said enough. If I could do it all over again I'd be a certified welder or a machinist.  I'd be making only slightly less than what I make now with a mechanical engineering degree+master's degree in engineering management with about 1/10th of the debt.

I'd also get to actually build things instead of sitting at my cube doing technical writing until my soul crushes itself in a puddle of goo and drains out my ear onto the cube floor.  But I should be grateful, right? I've got a paycheck.
2013-01-31 03:02:24 PM  
1 vote:
The free market has hit every profession except medicine, which still enjoys 100% employment and astronomical salaries. We need to open about 20 new accredited med schools in this country. The way it's supposed to work is: people are enticed to enter a field that has better a cost/benefit ratio than other fields. Because more people enter this field, it drives down salaries and drives up unemployment. Eventually, that field equilibrates with the market and no longer has a better cost/benefit ratio. This has happened to literally everything except medicine now.
2013-01-31 03:01:47 PM  
1 vote:

I should be in the kitchen: Cyberluddite: Rincewind53: Not me, I'm pretty and special and will graduate with money just raining down on me like some sort of cash bukkake.

As a lawyer myself, I've tried to talk many youngsters out of going to law school and becoming lawyers (including in TFD some advice threads over the years) , with tales of horrible working conditions, long hours, shiatty pay, poor job prospects, and widespread career dissatisfaction among most of my colleagues.  It always falls on deaf ears, and your sarcastic comment above is not too far off from what they actually say and seem to believe.  Unless I happen to talk to them a few years later, when I typically hear the "You were right--I wish I'd listened then" sort of comments.

May I ask you, or any of the other law-types here, what you do like about being a lawyer? Just asking out of genuine curiosity. Does the profession just suck overall, or is it more a matter of matching your interests/skills to the right area of law, or of newbies having unreasonable expectations? I have a friend who passed the bar about a year ago and is working family law currently, and HATES it. His interest is business law; totally different animal!


Despite being the one to have posted that above, I'm probably not the best person to ask--I'm one of the rare ones who has had a reasonably interesting, rewarding career (not so much economically, though--I've sacrificed some money for the sake of doing what I want to do and not working my ass off 24/7).  But I was one of those annoying assholes who was ranked #1 in my law school class and was the editor-in-chief of the law review, and I graduated at a boom time for the legal profession when good candidates for legal jobs were very much in demand, which hasn't been the case in many years.  So that gave me a big leg up at the start of my career, and as a result I've generally  had some appealing options open to me ever since.  It's certainly true that those who graduate at the very top of their class will often have different experiences from the 99-percenters--though certainly not always.

The vast majority of law school grads (especially now) do not have similar experiences.  The problems are as follows:

--The number of law school graduates (and the number of unemployed experienced lawyers as well) greatly outnumbers the available jobs.  A long period of unemployment is not at all unusual.

--Because of this, people are tend to take whatever job they can get, in whatever area of the law they can get one.  The people who actually wind up working in the area they're most interested in--or the one they thought they were interested in when they started law school--are a tiny minority.  99.99% of people who went into law school saying like "I want to be a lawyer because I want to do appellate work on environmental causes" wind up, if they can get a job at The Firm at all, doing something mind-numbing and soul-crushing like reviewing 3,000,000 pages of documents in some insurance coverage dispute or reviewing 5-foot-tall stacks of medical records from a bunch of piddly worker's comp claims and writing bullshiat answers to 3000 interrogatories or requests for admission about them served by the other side.  Many lawyers who thought they were going to be the next Clarence Darrow don't see the inside of the courtroom for several years--if they ever do at all.

--All a lawyer has to sell is her or her time.  So they're required to sell a lot of it. The focus of the partners at The Firm is not on the quality of a junior lawyer's work, but on the number of hours they manage to put on their timesheet.  40-hour work weeks are unheard of.  70-80 weeks are the norm, and are considered barely satisfactory by firm management.  Such luxuries as sleep, outside interests, handling personal or family issues, or raising children are seriously frowned upon.  People who engage in such frivolities will not have successful careers at The Firm, and will likely be tossed out at some point.

--All of the above tends to seriously warp people.  Some sickos view all of the above as "a calling" of some kind, and are willing to sacrifice everything else that matters in a normal person's life to fit in with The Firm's view of what it takes to be a star.  These people are to be shunned, and they ruin things for everyone else.  Unfortunately, they also wind up running The Firm at some point if they don't burn out or die first.  These people tend to be defective humans.  They also tend to be the bosses at The Firm.  They have no idea how to be effective or acceptable bosses, however, because they're warped individuals themselves.  This simply perpetuates the cycle.

--For all of this, most lawyers--especially younger ones--are paid a small fraction of what everyone thinks lawyers really make.  (Except perhaps at the ultra high-end, top tier firms, which tend to hire only the top-tier grads from the top-tier schools, and work them even more hours than the other firms.)  Per hour actually worked, a plumber makes far more, and deals with less shiat.  And a plumber doesn't have to rack up a 6-figure amount of student loans as a prerequisite to practice his trade, which requires a young lawyer to have loan payments for 20 years that are more than most people pay for their home mortgage in much of the country.

There are other reasons why I don't recommend it.  These are just a few of the bigger ones..
2013-01-31 02:58:47 PM  
1 vote:

jst3p: TheAlmightyOS: It has everything to do with location. The IT industry, as a whole, is doing very well. However, you live in a place like (for example) Michigan and the only job you're going to find is maintaining websites for some shady small business owner and getting minimum wage. That's what happened to me. Once I moved to Texas (specifically, Austin) I could not walk five feet without tripping over an IT job

CSB

A long time ago I lived in Spokane, Wa and I knew I wanted a career in IT. I made a list of areas with a high level of IT opportunities:


NY
Austin
Denver
Salt Lake City (no, really it is)
D.C.

Visited them all and decided where to move (I didn't include Silicon Valley or Seattle because I grew up in the valley and knew it well enough and living in Spokane I had enough experience in Seattle). I figured I would move and then get a degree in CS and start my career. There are other locations but these are the only ones I considered.

I moved to the Denver area (Boulder) and through a friend of a friend got my first IT job with zero certs and no professional experience.

Location is everything.


congrats. I was thinking Denver myself but choose Austin for its low cost of living and overall "weird" factor. Only downside here is they want paper proving you know what you know. When I got into IT my peers said certification was not necessary so I am a little behind the curve here
2013-01-31 02:58:32 PM  
1 vote:

Weaver95: RexTalionis: I did law because working as a programmer/IT technician seems like soul-crushing work.

Anyway, is anyone interested in hiring an IT guy who knows his way around the law?

shiat - i'm STILL looking for a job.  the IT field is pretty thin right now.


Dude, Get the fark out of Dodge and move somewhere where there are IT jobs.
2013-01-31 02:56:19 PM  
1 vote:

Grand_Moff_Joseph: Sucks for them, as it does for any new graduate looking for work.

That said though, the last thing we need is more freaking lawyers.  What we need are engineers and scientists.


No, we don't. Trust me on this one. Even scientists and engineers are having a tough time finding a decent paying job. Employers prefer to hire kids from India at 1/2 to 1/3 the wage of a comparable American.
2013-01-31 02:54:10 PM  
1 vote:
Its almost as if most engineering, programming and IT jobs are so mind destroying boring that they take pleasure from others not being able to easily obtain a career after university, graduate school or post-grad studies.

Where I work we have plenty of positions for the IT&T, Cardinal Stretch, University of Phoenix diploma mill graduates. Sure they work 80 hour weeks and live out of a suitcase, but making 80% of what a 40 hour a week non-technical project manager makes must be the sweet life.
2013-01-31 02:52:16 PM  
1 vote:

TheAlmightyOS: It has everything to do with location. The IT industry, as a whole, is doing very well. However, you live in a place like (for example) Michigan and the only job you're going to find is maintaining websites for some shady small business owner and getting minimum wage. That's what happened to me. Once I moved to Texas (specifically, Austin) I could not walk five feet without tripping over an IT job


CSB

A long time ago I lived in Spokane, Wa and I knew I wanted a career in IT. I made a list of areas with a high level of IT opportunities:


NY
Austin
Denver
Salt Lake City (no, really it is)
D.C.

Visited them all and decided where to move (I didn't include Silicon Valley or Seattle because I grew up in the valley and knew it well enough and living in Spokane I had enough experience in Seattle). I figured I would move and then get a degree in CS and start my career. There are other locations but these are the only ones I considered.

I moved to the Denver area (Boulder) and through a friend of a friend got my first IT job with zero certs and no professional experience.

Location is everything.
2013-01-31 02:44:42 PM  
1 vote:
Speaking as an English major who just re-upped his contract for an extra seven percent pay putting me 35% above what's considered my state's median salary, all I can say is: Suck it, suckers!
2013-01-31 02:41:55 PM  
1 vote:
I would have been in the class of 2007. I left after my first year (top third of the class in a non top 25 school). It sucks to be paying that debt down, but it would have sucked more to be miserable and paying 3x the debt. Instead, I remade myself, relocated, got a job in a field I liked, and another job after that. I work 40 hours a week and anything after that is OT, I get every holiday under the sun off, 2 days personal leave, 15 days/year vacation, and the work is interesting. The pay is not great but better than i would have made for the first decade as a public-sector lawyer, which is where I was headed.  I just wish i had figured it out soon enough to go to grad school for what I am doing now instead. life with a wife and kid in 2013 is much more complicated than life without either was in 2004.
2013-01-31 02:41:10 PM  
1 vote:

Weaver95: RexTalionis: I did law because working as a programmer/IT technician seems like soul-crushing work.

Anyway, is anyone interested in hiring an IT guy who knows his way around the law?

shiat - i'm STILL looking for a job.  the IT field is pretty thin right now.


Depends on where you are. In Penn. that may be the case; here in TN it's booming - if you don't mind working health care.

/I've turned down a number of those positions
//I'll stick to manufacturing, thanks
2013-01-31 02:08:34 PM  
1 vote:
25.media.tumblr.com
We might be getting around to the point where more people can afford to have their own lawyers.

/Holy farknuts, the interface has changed.
2013-01-31 02:05:15 PM  
1 vote:

Mugato: Does another dozen people want to point out my error?


FIFY.

YW.
2013-01-31 01:41:36 PM  
1 vote:

Marine1: InfrasonicTom: BUT BUT BUT  Mommy told me I should cuz I like to argue.  And it looks so cool in all those tv shows and movies....

Actually... that was the reason my mom proposed as to why I should be a lawyer.


Mine had the same advice.  Fortunately, I discovered the Internet and realized that you can argue all you want for free, with no credentials, leaving whenever you want, and you can still sleep at night.
2013-01-31 01:41:13 PM  
1 vote:

fawlty: Koalaesq: Yes, that's what women and minorities always have it so easy and are equity partners in all the big law firms.

Don't be foolish.  I did not say "historically."  I meant NOW and you know it.  The problem you mention is WHY the firms are responding the way they are.  And no, they aren't just handing out partnerships to new grads willy nilly.  You have to put in time for that.  But the odds of getting that first good job and paycheck are better if you meet the criteria I mentioned above.


No, I do not know it, I categorically dispute it. There might be some idiot partner out there who's floored by a big pair of tits, or some huge firm that'll hire a minority to look good, but to say that it increases the odds for women and minorities to any degree is an absolute fallacy. Women and minorities are still shunted to the side, by and large, and law is STILL a good ol' boys club. Maybe you don't see it, but I do.
2013-01-31 01:36:55 PM  
1 vote:

devildog123: It's even hard to get into the military's JAG corps these days, and that was always a final refuge for young or crappy lawyers.  They went from two officer selection boards a year to one, and quite a few of the military lawyers are actually fairly competent.  One of the soldiers that works for my wife enlisted after he got turned down.  Had his law degree and everything, and was trying to go JAG when he couldn't find a job anywhere else.  They were full up, and he wound up having to enlist to wait for a slot.  Here's a guy with a J.D. taking orders from people with B.A.s and high school diplomas.


Enlisted with a JD???  Why the hell not take a different kind of commission?  That really doesn't add up.
2013-01-31 01:34:51 PM  
1 vote:

AncientLurker: getting a kick... I worked back office support for a large DC firm for many years, that was all it took to make me decide for an MBA instead of a JD.  If you look at the hours that associates put in (at the big firms) and their salaries, I make the same but don't have to bill 2500 hours a year.
/bonus, MBA hate is only surpassed by lawyer hate.


Working in a law office has made it obvious to me that I don't want to go to law school.  I am worried I am stagnating and will be stuck here while I am trying to get my other degree and switch into an actual career, but at least I don't have $150,000-$200,000 in useless debt.
2013-01-31 01:33:10 PM  
1 vote:
"Can you imagine a world without lawyers?"

24.media.tumblr.com
2013-01-31 01:32:24 PM  
1 vote:

fawlty: Rincewind53: Not me, I'm pretty and special and will graduate with money just raining down on me like some sort of cash bukkake.

I know you're being facetious, but you're not far wrong.  If you're an attractve female and with decent grades and have a "bubbly" personality, you'll do fine. Which only means that law careers are the same as every other career.  Minorities will do well even without good grades because the law firms are trying to "diversify" i.e. not look like a good ole boys club.


Yes, that's what women and minorities always have it so easy and are equity partners in all the big law firms.

OH WAIT.
2013-01-31 01:29:07 PM  
1 vote:
getting a kick... I worked back office support for a large DC firm for many years, that was all it took to make me decide for an MBA instead of a JD.  If you look at the hours that associates put in (at the big firms) and their salaries, I make the same but don't have to bill 2500 hours a year.
/bonus, MBA hate is only surpassed by lawyer hate.
2013-01-31 01:28:41 PM  
1 vote:
I went to law school in the early 90s, but one of the primary things I learned in those 3 years was that I didn't really want to be a lawyer.  After college I worked in contract management for a large construction firm, and now 20 years later I own my own construction company.  My parents still occasionally make reference to all the time and money I "wasted" on law school, but in actuality I can't think of a better educational background for my line of work. It's always nice understanding the contract better than everyone else at the table.
2013-01-31 01:28:35 PM  
1 vote:

Rincewind53: Not me, I'm pretty and special and will graduate with money just raining down on me like some sort of cash bukkake.


I know you're being facetious, but you're not far wrong.  If you're an attractve female and with decent grades and have a "bubbly" personality, you'll do fine. Which only means that law careers are the same as every other career.  Minorities will do well even without good grades because the law firms are trying to "diversify" i.e. not look like a good ole boys club.
2013-01-31 01:26:00 PM  
1 vote:
I am a barrister so getting a kick etc...
2013-01-31 01:25:11 PM  
1 vote:
Welp... bullet dodged.

/was pre-law
//now IT
///lulz have been had
2013-01-31 01:20:00 PM  
1 vote:

Supes: Note to young/potential lawyers out there: For the sake of your career, specialize in something early that you believe will exist long into the future. The problem is young lawyers are very fungible. You want that specialty to make yourself harder to replace and more desirable to hire.  Good options at the moment include IP, securities, tax.... things that will continue to be around for the foreseeable future.


PATENTS.  If you have any sort of technical degree, there are always jobs for patent attorneys from what I have seen.
2013-01-31 01:19:49 PM  
1 vote:
Cause in most countries lawyers are pretty much at the level of accountants, architects, engineers, etc... not like you need much training to file paperwork.
2013-01-31 01:17:49 PM  
1 vote:

SN1987a goes boom: Hell, I'm having a hard time finding an engineering job with a Master's.


Mechanical engineering?  The dude got his degree in ME.  He does IT Security now....
2013-01-31 01:15:03 PM  
1 vote:

Koalaesq: Rincewind53: kwame: You mean stubbornly enrolling in a professional school for a career field that is completely saturated with qualified people, then doing nothing to separate yourself from the crowd means it's hard to get a job?  F*ck.  That's amazing.

I think that's the thing. The people who are excelling are still getting jobs. The people who used to get jobs just by nature of having a degree are not. And the people who used to get jobs just by being  good, but not excelling, are not, which is the  real problem.

I think in law school (maybe like most fields?) it's not what you know, it's WHO you know. When I clerked, every single other clerk there save for one knew someone who got him or her the gig, and then of course the Judges helped us get good jobs afterwards


Yep, that's definitely part of it. My dad dated a woman in college, and forty years later, she's now a federal judge, and they're still somewhat friends. 'm considering using that just to get my foot in the door and my resume looked at, which makes me feel like a shiatty human being, but I justify it to myself by saying "Everyone else is doing it."

And they are. A friend of a friend got a Circuit Court clerkship because he worked with someone who was friends with the judge.
2013-01-31 01:14:37 PM  
1 vote:
Hell, I'm having a hard time finding an engineering job with a Master's.
2013-01-31 01:13:28 PM  
1 vote:
This really isn't anything new.

Unlike the AMA or the AVMA and countless others; there isn't a strong political force to artificially limit the supply of lawyers.  The median wage is actually quite low when you consider the number of years it typically takes to become a lawyer.

That's median though.  Super-star lawyers are a different thing entirely.  It's also why it's a really big deal *where* you went to law school and how well you did.

It used to be that a piece of paper didn't determine your career.  It was the result of a lifetime of being awesome or sucky or somewhere in between.  Now that 'enough' people all have the same paper, we're pissing away a ton of money and lots of years to get back to a level playing field where the good people enjoy well paying jobs and the sucky ones struggle to find jobs.  It's just now everyone owes 100k and wasted four years of their life to get there.  Progress!
2013-01-31 01:12:13 PM  
1 vote:
i just became a lawyer, and I'm one of those jerks who has a job but is looking for a better one.  (primarily because my current job sucks.  the pay for a young lawyer is balls.  and, it can be.  i'd be replaced in a second for someone who would probably work for less and probably be not that much worse.  luckily, my boss likes my work.  i just need more of it.).

/ even thought about JAG.  could be interesting, and I could force everyone to call me doctor lieutenant esquire
2013-01-31 01:11:33 PM  
1 vote:

Cyberluddite: Rincewind53: Not me, I'm pretty and special and will graduate with money just raining down on me like some sort of cash bukkake.

As a lawyer myself, I've tried to talk many youngsters out of going to law school and becoming lawyers (including in TFD some advice threads over the years) , with tales of horrible working conditions, long hours, shiatty pay, poor job prospects, and widespread career dissatisfaction among most of my colleagues.  It always falls on deaf ears, and your sarcastic comment above is not too far off from what they actually say and seem to believe.  Unless I happen to talk to them a few years later, when I typically hear the "You were right--I wish I'd listened then" sort of comments.


I advise for pre-Law students and this man speaks the truth. I make them read a few articles on how bad prospects are. How going to a low-ranked law school is a waste of money unless they're going into the family practice. Hell, anything outside the top 15 or so is a waste.

I had the dean of the State law School here last year. He said the exact same thing you did. I loved him, because he didn't bullshiat the students.
2013-01-31 01:04:46 PM  
1 vote:
You mean stubbornly enrolling in a professional school for a career field that is completely saturated with qualified people, then doing nothing to separate yourself from the crowd means it's hard to get a job?  F*ck.  That's amazing.
2013-01-31 01:04:43 PM  
1 vote:
Starbucks barristers?
2013-01-31 01:04:21 PM  
1 vote:
Sucks for them, as it does for any new graduate looking for work.

That said though, the last thing we need is more freaking lawyers.  What we need are engineers and scientists.
2013-01-31 01:03:27 PM  
1 vote:
it's my money and i need it now
2013-01-31 12:54:47 PM  
1 vote:

Mugato: Law school. Memorize a bunch of court case precedents and terminally boring laws and learn to argue like an asshole. Doesn't impress me. farking Bush managed to get a law degree, ffs. Sure there was nepotism involved but he still made it to class.


If you're talking about Bush 43, no, he didn't have a law degree. Neither did Jeb, or  Bush 41.
2013-01-31 12:42:22 PM  
1 vote:
Oh man, I just love these articles.

I kind of feel guilty every time I teach an LSAT prep class.
2013-01-31 12:37:52 PM  
1 vote:

sigdiamond2000: vernonFL: My sister hasn't even graduated law school yet and she already has a job with the local DAs office.

Is she a young, brash rainmaker who's going to use her natural spunky charm to step on some toes and put the system on trial?


Single Female Lawyer
Havin' lots of sex
2013-01-31 12:16:11 PM  
1 vote:

vernonFL: My sister hasn't even graduated law school yet and she already has a job with the local DAs office.


Is she a young, brash rainmaker who's going to use her natural spunky charm to step on some toes and put the system on trial?
2013-01-31 12:09:47 PM  
1 vote:

Rincewind53: Not me, I'm pretty and special and will graduate with money just raining down on me like some sort of cash bukkake.


As a lawyer myself, I've tried to talk many youngsters out of going to law school and becoming lawyers (including in TFD some advice threads over the years) , with tales of horrible working conditions, long hours, shiatty pay, poor job prospects, and widespread career dissatisfaction among most of my colleagues.  It always falls on deaf ears, and your sarcastic comment above is not too far off from what they actually say and seem to believe.  Unless I happen to talk to them a few years later, when I typically hear the "You were right--I wish I'd listened then" sort of comments.
2013-01-31 12:05:44 PM  
1 vote:

vernonFL: My sister hasn't even graduated law school yet and she already has a job with the local DAs office.


My sister could kick your sisters ass.
2013-01-31 11:45:25 AM  
1 vote:

Rincewind53: Weaver95: nice to see law students in the same boat as the rest of us.  c'mon down to the protests and get your fair share of abuse!

Actually, I'm trained to go down to the protests to act as legal observers for the National Lawyer's Guild, to protect protesters from police abuses.


i've met more than a few of your group at various Occupy gatherings.  I don't think the capital cops were too fond of y'all either but the ground rule explanations of what you can and can't do around cops during a protest helped keep things from getting ugly on either side.

I liked it when the cops tried to be all cool about eavsedropping and the lawyer guild rep was like 'c'mon down!  there's a seat here in front'.  i've never seen someone look so uncomfortable in body armor before....
2013-01-31 11:45:12 AM  
1 vote:

Weaver95: nice to see law students in the same boat as the rest of us.  c'mon down to the protests and get your fair share of abuse!


We share the same boat so they're taking on water too. Simply put .. less Americans can afford: Divorce, frivolous lawsuits against X-friends/family/neighbors, custody battles, etc. Corporations are also using less legal help or outsourcing aspects of it to foreign lands or private home-workers (My mom does court reporting from her house). More IT efficiency means less need for legal admins as well so it effects the entire "legal industry." My mom used to be a legal administrator.. Hard to find employment in the field.

Computers have also allowed us to rely less on real attorneys and more on internet available legal documents. I don't have to get my lease agreement drawn up by a lawyer as I can simply download one from the internet for free and it will have the same legal standing as one made by a lawyer. Even forming a corporation or LLC which used to require an attorney can now be done by an individual with the same end result: an incorporation. The first Corp I had cost $1500 to form. The last LLC I made a few years ago for rental properties cost me zero as I did it myself with publicly available legal documents which I then submitted to my state for legal corporation. It's the same exact documentation that cost me $1500 back in 96.

Now we compound these problems with the fact that seasoned lawyers are sticking around longer before they retire. Some attorneys are coming back to the industry because they realize they can't live off what they originally planned on. So now I have an option between a guy who's spent 40 years practicing and knows everyone in the district vs. a new guy who doesn't really know all that much. Who would you pick?
2013-01-31 11:44:20 AM  
1 vote:
Law school. Memorize a bunch of court case precedents and terminally boring laws and learn to argue like an asshole. Doesn't impress me. farking Bush managed to get a law degree, ffs. Sure there was nepotism involved but he still made it to class.
2013-01-31 11:39:31 AM  
1 vote:

Weaver95: nice to see law students in the same boat as the rest of us.  c'mon down to the protests and get your fair share of abuse!


Actually, I'm trained to go down to the protests to act as legal observers for the National Lawyer's Guild, to protect protesters from police abuses.
2013-01-31 11:36:35 AM  
1 vote:
nice to see law students in the same boat as the rest of us.  c'mon down to the protests and get your fair share of abuse!
 
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