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(The New York Times)   Congratulations law students. You're now in the elite employment ranks of Future Starbucks Baristas, along with all those liberal arts masters degree holders   (nytimes.com) divider line 348
    More: Obvious, arts, master's degrees, University of Chicago Law School, law schools, rankings, upward mobility, class size, student debt  
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12581 clicks; posted to Main » on 31 Jan 2013 at 1:01 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-01-31 02:37:29 PM
Article says it all. Ridiculously expensive, not that great job prospects. The fact that a lot of firms won't even consider you unless you went to a handful of schools keeps prices for education inflated, in most areas.
 
2013-01-31 02:39:30 PM

Koalaesq: pute kisses like a man: a lot of the work is uncompensable stuff like finding work or getting paid for work you've done

Aha, THAT is the stuff that I like least about law, and why I much prefer in house counsel or non-profit/ legal aid stuff. I've never had to do billable hours in my life, and even though I get paid less, I know I'm getting a pay check at the end of the day and I don't have to fight for money. The law would be the perfect profession if it were just THE LAW and not the incidentals.


I was fortunate in that I spent 5 years working in the domestic relations section of a  decent-sized circuit court before I went to law school.  In tha t job I got to meet a hell of a lot of the local solo- and small firm practicioners and befriend them.   The most vaulauble insight I gained from them was you should NOT open your own law firm if you want to practice law.   IF instead you want to be a small-businessman and you actually enjoy all that goes with that (advertising billing, ordering supplies, managing employees etc etc) then sure, hang out a shingle, but if you hate that/suck at it?   Run away.  At best you'll end up broke and at worst you'll end up disbarred.
 
2013-01-31 02:39:38 PM
i218.photobucket.com

There's always work at the post office.
 
2013-01-31 02:40:50 PM
But who will fight the big cases like Mom vs Frozen Pizzas!!!!
 
2013-01-31 02:41:10 PM

Weaver95: RexTalionis: I did law because working as a programmer/IT technician seems like soul-crushing work.

Anyway, is anyone interested in hiring an IT guy who knows his way around the law?

shiat - i'm STILL looking for a job.  the IT field is pretty thin right now.


Depends on where you are. In Penn. that may be the case; here in TN it's booming - if you don't mind working health care.

/I've turned down a number of those positions
//I'll stick to manufacturing, thanks
 
2013-01-31 02:41:25 PM

give me doughnuts: Mugato: Law school. Memorize a bunch of court case precedents and terminally boring laws and learn to argue like an asshole. Doesn't impress me. farking Bush managed to get a law degree, ffs. Sure there was nepotism involved but he still made it to class.

If you're talking about Bush 43, no, he didn't have a law degree. Neither did Jeb, or  Bush 41.


He has an MBA, IIRC. I don't think Dubya is actually stupid, just intellectually lazy.

/ just like I was, back in High School...
// left that attitude behind in my early 20's...
 
2013-01-31 02:41:55 PM
I would have been in the class of 2007. I left after my first year (top third of the class in a non top 25 school). It sucks to be paying that debt down, but it would have sucked more to be miserable and paying 3x the debt. Instead, I remade myself, relocated, got a job in a field I liked, and another job after that. I work 40 hours a week and anything after that is OT, I get every holiday under the sun off, 2 days personal leave, 15 days/year vacation, and the work is interesting. The pay is not great but better than i would have made for the first decade as a public-sector lawyer, which is where I was headed.  I just wish i had figured it out soon enough to go to grad school for what I am doing now instead. life with a wife and kid in 2013 is much more complicated than life without either was in 2004.
 
2013-01-31 02:42:05 PM

Cyberluddite: Rincewind53: Not me, I'm pretty and special and will graduate with money just raining down on me like some sort of cash bukkake.

As a lawyer myself, I've tried to talk many youngsters out of going to law school and becoming lawyers (including in TFD some advice threads over the years) , with tales of horrible working conditions, long hours, shiatty pay, poor job prospects, and widespread career dissatisfaction among most of my colleagues.  It always falls on deaf ears, and your sarcastic comment above is not too far off from what they actually say and seem to believe.  Unless I happen to talk to them a few years later, when I typically hear the "You were right--I wish I'd listened then" sort of comments.


If youth only knew: if age only could. Henri Estienne French
 
2013-01-31 02:42:11 PM
Or you can take clients for one dollar.

img2-2.timeinc.net
 
2013-01-31 02:44:42 PM
Speaking as an English major who just re-upped his contract for an extra seven percent pay putting me 35% above what's considered my state's median salary, all I can say is: Suck it, suckers!
 
2013-01-31 02:47:38 PM

Grand_Moff_Joseph: Sucks for them, as it does for any new graduate looking for work.

That said though, the last thing we need is more freaking lawyers.  What we need are engineers and scientists.


This, but make sure the engineers understand that the old saying, "if you build a better mouse trap, the world will beat a path to your door," has never worked because the world needs to know why your mouse trap is better...and that's why you need us marketing and advertising hacks.

/ Scientists, you're good. Keep on sciencing.
 
2013-01-31 02:48:30 PM

RexTalionis: I did law because working as a programmer/IT technician seems like soul-crushing work.

Anyway, is anyone interested in hiring an IT guy who knows his way around the law?


There are companies that specialize in eDiscovery. Maybe that might be a good place to start?
 
2013-01-31 02:49:09 PM

Koalaesq: fawlty: Rincewind53: Not me, I'm pretty and special and will graduate with money just raining down on me like some sort of cash bukkake.

I know you're being facetious, but you're not far wrong.  If you're an attractve female and with decent grades and have a "bubbly" personality, you'll do fine. Which only means that law careers are the same as every other career.  Minorities will do well even without good grades because the law firms are trying to "diversify" i.e. not look like a good ole boys club.

Yes, that's what women and minorities always have it so easy and are equity partners in all the big law firms.

OH WAIT.


Doesn't mean they can do it once they get there.  But yeah, when I worked for a big firm and did interviews, they sent the resumes and transcripts out ahead of time. You could identify the African-American applicants on paper, because whites with those grades and scores would not have gotten a look.

Female and male applicants had equivalent qualifications.
 
2013-01-31 02:50:06 PM
Don't go to law school to become rich that is only going to happen to a few, and those few will be from tier 1 schools

Do go into law if you have a passion about a part of it

The wife after being a family law paralegal on a military base for 20 years got sick of seeing solders hosed in divorces

She is now a Family law Attorney, No BMW no Mercedes, she is happy with her Accord and her work

Loans will be paid off at age 65, doing a CBA says it was foolish for her to do this, her personal satisfaction at making a difference says otherwise.

People whine about how much lawyers cost yet never complain when- if they figured it out- a doctor charges them twice as much for a 10 minute office visit that you have to wait an hour or and most likely does not solve the problem for another 3 or 4 visits
 
2013-01-31 02:50:22 PM
Yeah, after you so called lawyers get out of school for all those years your Mc Job will be waiting for you. Or if you prefer, can you say "spill on isle four",,HAHAHAHAHA!!!!!

/ LAWYERS=BLOODSUCKERS
 
2013-01-31 02:50:55 PM
The leading banker lawyer in Amsterdam is now the pastry chef in our kitchen.

static2.businessinsider.com
 
2013-01-31 02:51:21 PM

Mitch Taylor's Bro: Grand_Moff_Joseph: Sucks for them, as it does for any new graduate looking for work.

That said though, the last thing we need is more freaking lawyers.  What we need are engineers and scientists.

This, but make sure the engineers understand that the old saying, "if you build a better mouse trap, the world will beat a path to your door,"...


or, it doesn't really matter, china will just steal the technology and make it for themselves.  (so, hire lawyers!)
 
2013-01-31 02:52:16 PM

TheAlmightyOS: It has everything to do with location. The IT industry, as a whole, is doing very well. However, you live in a place like (for example) Michigan and the only job you're going to find is maintaining websites for some shady small business owner and getting minimum wage. That's what happened to me. Once I moved to Texas (specifically, Austin) I could not walk five feet without tripping over an IT job


CSB

A long time ago I lived in Spokane, Wa and I knew I wanted a career in IT. I made a list of areas with a high level of IT opportunities:


NY
Austin
Denver
Salt Lake City (no, really it is)
D.C.

Visited them all and decided where to move (I didn't include Silicon Valley or Seattle because I grew up in the valley and knew it well enough and living in Spokane I had enough experience in Seattle). I figured I would move and then get a degree in CS and start my career. There are other locations but these are the only ones I considered.

I moved to the Denver area (Boulder) and through a friend of a friend got my first IT job with zero certs and no professional experience.

Location is everything.
 
2013-01-31 02:54:10 PM
Its almost as if most engineering, programming and IT jobs are so mind destroying boring that they take pleasure from others not being able to easily obtain a career after university, graduate school or post-grad studies.

Where I work we have plenty of positions for the IT&T, Cardinal Stretch, University of Phoenix diploma mill graduates. Sure they work 80 hour weeks and live out of a suitcase, but making 80% of what a 40 hour a week non-technical project manager makes must be the sweet life.
 
2013-01-31 02:55:34 PM
I thought this sentence was awesome:

Research is faster and easier, requiring fewer lawyers, and is being outsourced to less expensive locales, including West Virginia and overseas.

So West Virginia is basically a third world country.
 
2013-01-31 02:56:19 PM

Grand_Moff_Joseph: Sucks for them, as it does for any new graduate looking for work.

That said though, the last thing we need is more freaking lawyers.  What we need are engineers and scientists.


No, we don't. Trust me on this one. Even scientists and engineers are having a tough time finding a decent paying job. Employers prefer to hire kids from India at 1/2 to 1/3 the wage of a comparable American.
 
2013-01-31 02:56:49 PM

Chach: T14 or don't go.

Law students aren't doing badly. Law students at bad law schools are doing badly.

Go to Harvard, Yale, Stanford, NYU, Chicago, Columbia, Michigan, Virginia, Penn, Cornell, Georgetown, Berkeley, or Duke, or Northwestern. Fine, maybe Texas ... maybe UCLA. But that's it!


My neighbor (and long time bartender) wrapped her JD at Cornell about 2.5 years ago, came back to Seattle, where the economy is doing a hell of a lot better than a lot of places, and bought a bunch of suits for interviewing. Passed the bar on the first try. Know what she is now? My neighborhood bartender again.
 
2013-01-31 02:57:11 PM

Nabb1: This is relevant to the discussion:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nMvARy0lBLE

And hilarious, because it's true.


"Have you ever accepted a mediation and then discovered that the other side only requested it so a process server could trap your client in the bathroom of a Wendy's?"

Tears of helpless levity are rolling down my cheeks!
 
2013-01-31 02:57:59 PM

I agree with you: Yeah, after you so called lawyers get out of school for all those years your Mc Job will be waiting for you. Or if you prefer, can you say "spill on isle four",,HAHAHAHAHA!!!!!

/ LAWYERS=BLOODSUCKERS


How many islands will they have to clean?
 
2013-01-31 02:58:30 PM

doyner: Am I the only one who read TFA?  My takeaway from it was that law school is getting easier to get into and they're going to make it chaeaper.

Now all I gotta do is lern to rite good.


You've never read anything written by a lawyer.
 
2013-01-31 02:58:32 PM

Weaver95: RexTalionis: I did law because working as a programmer/IT technician seems like soul-crushing work.

Anyway, is anyone interested in hiring an IT guy who knows his way around the law?

shiat - i'm STILL looking for a job.  the IT field is pretty thin right now.


Dude, Get the fark out of Dodge and move somewhere where there are IT jobs.
 
2013-01-31 02:58:47 PM

jst3p: TheAlmightyOS: It has everything to do with location. The IT industry, as a whole, is doing very well. However, you live in a place like (for example) Michigan and the only job you're going to find is maintaining websites for some shady small business owner and getting minimum wage. That's what happened to me. Once I moved to Texas (specifically, Austin) I could not walk five feet without tripping over an IT job

CSB

A long time ago I lived in Spokane, Wa and I knew I wanted a career in IT. I made a list of areas with a high level of IT opportunities:


NY
Austin
Denver
Salt Lake City (no, really it is)
D.C.

Visited them all and decided where to move (I didn't include Silicon Valley or Seattle because I grew up in the valley and knew it well enough and living in Spokane I had enough experience in Seattle). I figured I would move and then get a degree in CS and start my career. There are other locations but these are the only ones I considered.

I moved to the Denver area (Boulder) and through a friend of a friend got my first IT job with zero certs and no professional experience.

Location is everything.


congrats. I was thinking Denver myself but choose Austin for its low cost of living and overall "weird" factor. Only downside here is they want paper proving you know what you know. When I got into IT my peers said certification was not necessary so I am a little behind the curve here
 
2013-01-31 02:59:33 PM
What do you call 10,000 lawyers at the bottom of the ocean?

A good start!
 
2013-01-31 03:00:07 PM

Rincewind53: Koalaesq: Rincewind53: kwame: You mean stubbornly enrolling in a professional school for a career field that is completely saturated with qualified people, then doing nothing to separate yourself from the crowd means it's hard to get a job?  F*ck.  That's amazing.

I think that's the thing. The people who are excelling are still getting jobs. The people who used to get jobs just by nature of having a degree are not. And the people who used to get jobs just by being  good, but not excelling, are not, which is the  real problem.

I think in law school (maybe like most fields?) it's not what you know, it's WHO you know. When I clerked, every single other clerk there save for one knew someone who got him or her the gig, and then of course the Judges helped us get good jobs afterwards

Yep, that's definitely part of it. My dad dated a woman in college, and forty years later, she's now a federal judge, and they're still somewhat friends. 'm considering using that just to get my foot in the door and my resume looked at, which makes me feel like a shiatty human being, but I justify it to myself by saying "Everyone else is doing it."

And they are. A friend of a friend got a Circuit Court clerkship because he worked with someone who was friends with the judge.


Why would you feel shiatty? There are no self-made men, only ungrateful assholes who think they did it all on their own and overlook all those little things people did to help them.

Everyone gets help somewhere along the way and if you fail to use every advantage to get where you want to go, you'll look back on your life with more regrets than if you'd just picked up the phone and said, "Hey, you don't know me, by my dad is so-and-so and he thought you might be able to help me get my foot in the door."
 
2013-01-31 03:01:18 PM

Mitch Taylor's Bro: "Hey, you don't know me, but my dad is so-and-so and he thought you might be able to help me get my foot in the door."


Also, proofreading is important ::smacks forehead::
 
2013-01-31 03:01:47 PM

I should be in the kitchen: Cyberluddite: Rincewind53: Not me, I'm pretty and special and will graduate with money just raining down on me like some sort of cash bukkake.

As a lawyer myself, I've tried to talk many youngsters out of going to law school and becoming lawyers (including in TFD some advice threads over the years) , with tales of horrible working conditions, long hours, shiatty pay, poor job prospects, and widespread career dissatisfaction among most of my colleagues.  It always falls on deaf ears, and your sarcastic comment above is not too far off from what they actually say and seem to believe.  Unless I happen to talk to them a few years later, when I typically hear the "You were right--I wish I'd listened then" sort of comments.

May I ask you, or any of the other law-types here, what you do like about being a lawyer? Just asking out of genuine curiosity. Does the profession just suck overall, or is it more a matter of matching your interests/skills to the right area of law, or of newbies having unreasonable expectations? I have a friend who passed the bar about a year ago and is working family law currently, and HATES it. His interest is business law; totally different animal!


Despite being the one to have posted that above, I'm probably not the best person to ask--I'm one of the rare ones who has had a reasonably interesting, rewarding career (not so much economically, though--I've sacrificed some money for the sake of doing what I want to do and not working my ass off 24/7).  But I was one of those annoying assholes who was ranked #1 in my law school class and was the editor-in-chief of the law review, and I graduated at a boom time for the legal profession when good candidates for legal jobs were very much in demand, which hasn't been the case in many years.  So that gave me a big leg up at the start of my career, and as a result I've generally  had some appealing options open to me ever since.  It's certainly true that those who graduate at the very top of their class will often have different experiences from the 99-percenters--though certainly not always.

The vast majority of law school grads (especially now) do not have similar experiences.  The problems are as follows:

--The number of law school graduates (and the number of unemployed experienced lawyers as well) greatly outnumbers the available jobs.  A long period of unemployment is not at all unusual.

--Because of this, people are tend to take whatever job they can get, in whatever area of the law they can get one.  The people who actually wind up working in the area they're most interested in--or the one they thought they were interested in when they started law school--are a tiny minority.  99.99% of people who went into law school saying like "I want to be a lawyer because I want to do appellate work on environmental causes" wind up, if they can get a job at The Firm at all, doing something mind-numbing and soul-crushing like reviewing 3,000,000 pages of documents in some insurance coverage dispute or reviewing 5-foot-tall stacks of medical records from a bunch of piddly worker's comp claims and writing bullshiat answers to 3000 interrogatories or requests for admission about them served by the other side.  Many lawyers who thought they were going to be the next Clarence Darrow don't see the inside of the courtroom for several years--if they ever do at all.

--All a lawyer has to sell is her or her time.  So they're required to sell a lot of it. The focus of the partners at The Firm is not on the quality of a junior lawyer's work, but on the number of hours they manage to put on their timesheet.  40-hour work weeks are unheard of.  70-80 weeks are the norm, and are considered barely satisfactory by firm management.  Such luxuries as sleep, outside interests, handling personal or family issues, or raising children are seriously frowned upon.  People who engage in such frivolities will not have successful careers at The Firm, and will likely be tossed out at some point.

--All of the above tends to seriously warp people.  Some sickos view all of the above as "a calling" of some kind, and are willing to sacrifice everything else that matters in a normal person's life to fit in with The Firm's view of what it takes to be a star.  These people are to be shunned, and they ruin things for everyone else.  Unfortunately, they also wind up running The Firm at some point if they don't burn out or die first.  These people tend to be defective humans.  They also tend to be the bosses at The Firm.  They have no idea how to be effective or acceptable bosses, however, because they're warped individuals themselves.  This simply perpetuates the cycle.

--For all of this, most lawyers--especially younger ones--are paid a small fraction of what everyone thinks lawyers really make.  (Except perhaps at the ultra high-end, top tier firms, which tend to hire only the top-tier grads from the top-tier schools, and work them even more hours than the other firms.)  Per hour actually worked, a plumber makes far more, and deals with less shiat.  And a plumber doesn't have to rack up a 6-figure amount of student loans as a prerequisite to practice his trade, which requires a young lawyer to have loan payments for 20 years that are more than most people pay for their home mortgage in much of the country.

There are other reasons why I don't recommend it.  These are just a few of the bigger ones..
 
2013-01-31 03:02:24 PM
The free market has hit every profession except medicine, which still enjoys 100% employment and astronomical salaries. We need to open about 20 new accredited med schools in this country. The way it's supposed to work is: people are enticed to enter a field that has better a cost/benefit ratio than other fields. Because more people enter this field, it drives down salaries and drives up unemployment. Eventually, that field equilibrates with the market and no longer has a better cost/benefit ratio. This has happened to literally everything except medicine now.
 
2013-01-31 03:03:51 PM

cig-mkr: The country needs to go back to apprenticeships like electricians, machinist, masons, carpenters, auto mechanics and such.
You probably won't eat steak every night, but you wouldn't starve either.


This can't be said enough. If I could do it all over again I'd be a certified welder or a machinist.  I'd be making only slightly less than what I make now with a mechanical engineering degree+master's degree in engineering management with about 1/10th of the debt.

I'd also get to actually build things instead of sitting at my cube doing technical writing until my soul crushes itself in a puddle of goo and drains out my ear onto the cube floor.  But I should be grateful, right? I've got a paycheck.
 
2013-01-31 03:07:49 PM

Rincewind53: Not me, I'm pretty and special and will graduate with money just raining down on me like some sort of cash bukkake.


"Some sort of Cash Bukkake" TM Ask for it by name!
 
2013-01-31 03:12:22 PM

Cyberluddite: --For all of this, most lawyers--especially younger ones--are paid a small fraction of what everyone thinks lawyers really make. (Except perhaps at the ultra high-end, top tier firms, which tend to hire only the top-tier grads from the top-tier schools, and work them even more hours than the other firms.) Per hour actually worked, a plumber makes far more, and deals with less shiat. And a plumber doesn't have to rack up a 6-figure amount of student loans as a prerequisite to practice his trade, which requires a young lawyer to have loan payments for 20 years that are more than most people pay for their home mortgage in much of the country.


Weird. As a guy in the remodeling industry my company does a ton of work in Seattle's more exclusive neighborhoods and has for the last couple of decades. Of the hundreds of fancy houses we've spruced up I can say that a pretty substantial percentage of them were owned by attorneys. But after over 600 projects we've yet to work for a rich plumber.

Amusing anecdote: A long time ago we did a project for a wealthy dude who had hired his own plumber outside of our contract to save a few bucks. I'm in there working away in the kitchen and the dude is complaining to the plumber about his bill rate, exclaiming tastefully, 'your hourly rate is higher than mine!'. Not stooping to the guy's level the plumber replied, 'you ought to be able to take care of this yourself then,' and walked out and got in his truck. I imagine he was thinking, 'I'm getting too old for this shiat.' It was sublime.
 
2013-01-31 03:12:37 PM

Freudian_slipknot: Rincewind53: Not me, I'm pretty and special and will graduate with money just raining down on me like some sort of cash bukkake.

Oh god, I see this all the time.  I work in a corporate law firm and we have young folks coming through all the time who somehow leave here to go to law school - even having seen how bad things are from the inside.  Apparently they're all snowflakes who are going to somehow beat the odds with their degrees from whatever law school would take them (not a one is going to a top tier school).  It's like watching people commit (financial) suicide left and right.


What makes a law school "top tier," BTW?  I really have no clue, just preconceptions.  Is it reputation and contacts that make it easier to find work?  Does someone track graduates' performances to determine which schools produce better lawyers?  Is it as simple as the suicide rate among students? :-)
 
2013-01-31 03:13:44 PM

BarkingUnicorn: Freudian_slipknot: Rincewind53: Not me, I'm pretty and special and will graduate with money just raining down on me like some sort of cash bukkake.

Oh god, I see this all the time.  I work in a corporate law firm and we have young folks coming through all the time who somehow leave here to go to law school - even having seen how bad things are from the inside.  Apparently they're all snowflakes who are going to somehow beat the odds with their degrees from whatever law school would take them (not a one is going to a top tier school).  It's like watching people commit (financial) suicide left and right.

What makes a law school "top tier," BTW?  I really have no clue, just preconceptions.  Is it reputation and contacts that make it easier to find work?  Does someone track graduates' performances to determine which schools produce better lawyers?  Is it as simple as the suicide rate among students? :-)


No, US News & World Reports actually puts out listings with law schools divided up into tiers every year.
 
2013-01-31 03:14:35 PM
CSb time.  A few stories from my time working IT for a big DC law firm.

a manager that was sexually harassing employees, and sleeping with a subordinate.  Topped his career off by getting kickbacks from the hardware vendors, and selling our new equipment on ebay.
alcoholic network engineers, and a manager on a liquid lunch diet, who was alleged to be having an affair with a coworker, he was married.
the guy who used to chase the homeless people around the building (screaming) for exercise.
Two Blackberry admins that showed up stoned ever single day.(they left tons of porn).
an admin that was fired, went home and got drunk and remoted back in and destroyed the email system.(one year prison sentence).
the network guy that drank 5 large latte's everyday, capped off his career by setting off the Halon fire system in the NOC.
Email admin that personally unleashed a virus taking the system out for days.
tech who called from jail on coke possession  charges looking for bail money.
the couple having sex in the small copy room near my cube.
 
2013-01-31 03:17:14 PM

I should be in the kitchen: Cyberluddite: Rincewind53: Not me, I'm pretty and special and will graduate with money just raining down on me like some sort of cash bukkake.

As a lawyer myself, I've tried to talk many youngsters out of going to law school and becoming lawyers (including in TFD some advice threads over the years) , with tales of horrible working conditions, long hours, shiatty pay, poor job prospects, and widespread career dissatisfaction among most of my colleagues.  It always falls on deaf ears, and your sarcastic comment above is not too far off from what they actually say and seem to believe.  Unless I happen to talk to them a few years later, when I typically hear the "You were right--I wish I'd listened then" sort of comments.

May I ask you, or any of the other law-types here, what you do like about being a lawyer? Just asking out of genuine curiosity. Does the profession just suck overall, or is it more a matter of matching your interests/skills to the right area of law, or of newbies having unreasonable expectations? I have a friend who passed the bar about a year ago and is working family law currently, and HATES it. His interest is business law; totally different animal!


I love my job. I was an engineer for a decade, and it was starting to get boring working on the same projects all the time. Now, I get to work on cutting edge technologies in dozens of different, unrelated fields. Every day has something interesting or exciting to work on, and each project tends to last only a few weeks at most.

But, I'm in patent prosecution, not litigation. That's a huge difference. Litigators are all either cutthroat sharks with huge ulcers and coke problems, or they're bait with bigger ulcers and heroin problems. Also, I've got no debt (wouldn't have gambled on changing careers if I didn't have a scholarship, and I worked full time through law school), so that takes a ton of the pressure off.

So, yeah, I loved law school and I love practicing... but other than patent prosecution, I would not recommend it for anyone and have told people not to go.
 
2013-01-31 03:18:27 PM

NathanAllen: Its almost as if most engineering, programming and IT jobs are so mind destroying boring that they take pleasure from others not being able to easily obtain a career after university, graduate school or post-grad studies.

Where I work we have plenty of positions for the IT&T, Cardinal Stretch, University of Phoenix diploma mill graduates. Sure they work 80 hour weeks and live out of a suitcase, but making 80% of what a 40 hour a week non-technical project manager makes must be the sweet life.


Hmm.  At first it seems like it's really asking for a "U MAD, BRO?" response, but then when you take a deeper look... it starts by insults a group for their propensity for looking down on employment statuses of others and then immediately performs that very transgression itself.

Solid 7/10.  All the elements are there, but it's hard to take seriously anyone who holds up management as desirable position. It's more sad than inflammatory.  Anyway, not bad, but room for improvement.  Consider the effect of leaving off the first paragraph: by getting rid the adversarial context, the remaining text has more punch.  Leading with an implied, "why are you unemployed when we have these open spots," is far far more poignant.  You've got potential though.
 
2013-01-31 03:18:37 PM
Here's a thought...go to court, get appointed cases.  I guarantee you can make more doing court appointments than working at Starbucks.
 
2013-01-31 03:18:59 PM

BarkingUnicorn: Freudian_slipknot: Rincewind53: Not me, I'm pretty and special and will graduate with money just raining down on me like some sort of cash bukkake.

Oh god, I see this all the time.  I work in a corporate law firm and we have young folks coming through all the time who somehow leave here to go to law school - even having seen how bad things are from the inside.  Apparently they're all snowflakes who are going to somehow beat the odds with their degrees from whatever law school would take them (not a one is going to a top tier school).  It's like watching people commit (financial) suicide left and right.

What makes a law school "top tier," BTW?  I really have no clue, just preconceptions.  Is it reputation and contacts that make it easier to find work?  Does someone track graduates' performances to determine which schools produce better lawyers?  Is it as simple as the suicide rate among students? :-)


Rex is right, it's almost solely based on the US News rankings. The top 14 schools (known as the T14) have stayed the same schools (only moving around within the top 14) for some obscene length of time, like 20 years or so.
 
2013-01-31 03:21:39 PM

EyeballKid: No field of study is safe, so long as any company with no sense of integrity whatsoever will move its business to hire the cheapest labor force possible in any field.


You want security, go in to the trades. No matter how hard they try they can't repair your leaky pipes or blown breaker from a sweatshop in India.
 
2013-01-31 03:21:46 PM

BarkingUnicorn: Freudian_slipknot: Rincewind53: Not me, I'm pretty and special and will graduate with money just raining down on me like some sort of cash bukkake.

Oh god, I see this all the time.  I work in a corporate law firm and we have young folks coming through all the time who somehow leave here to go to law school - even having seen how bad things are from the inside.  Apparently they're all snowflakes who are going to somehow beat the odds with their degrees from whatever law school would take them (not a one is going to a top tier school).  It's like watching people commit (financial) suicide left and right.

What makes a law school "top tier," BTW?  I really have no clue, just preconceptions.  Is it reputation and contacts that make it easier to find work?  Does someone track graduates' performances to determine which schools produce better lawyers?  Is it as simple as the suicide rate among students? :-)


It's all about the Us News rankings, sadly.  And law School deans who tell you otherwise are farking liars.   If I made a mistake in my legal career, it was turning down a scholarship to a top 10 school (U-Penn) to go to a second tier school in Chicago with a slightly bigger scholarship (Chicago-Kent) because I liked the atomosphere and quality of the teachers and Clinics at Kent better.  I have no doubt I got a better education and better experiences where I went, but I have equally no doubt that it has cost me financially in the long run, because those top ten schools have a cachet with hiring managers that the others don't
 
2013-01-31 03:24:06 PM

jst3p: redmid17: Mugato: Law school. Memorize a bunch of court case precedents and terminally boring laws and learn to argue like an asshole. Doesn't impress me. farking Bush managed to get a law degree, ffs. Sure there was nepotism involved but he still made it to class.

W didn't have a law degree. He got an MBA.

Clinton got a BJ from a BBW.


I don't know if I'd call her a BBW.. maybe just a BW..
 
2013-01-31 03:26:08 PM
Well I think that leaves engineering and medical degrees as the only thing to pursue in college that doesn't get the internet all uppity and saying things like "what did you expect with such a worthless waste of money and time with your Liberal Arts/Teaching/MBA/Business/Lit/Nursing/Women's Studies/JD/Communications degree"


meanwhile it alludes anyone to comment that maybe we're raising the bar just a tad too high on the current crop of college graduates when virtually every single pursuit is considered a waste of resources.
 
2013-01-31 03:26:20 PM

wildcardjack: /Holy farknuts, the interface has changed.


Change it back.
 
2013-01-31 03:29:02 PM

SpectroBoy: EyeballKid: No field of study is safe, so long as any company with no sense of integrity whatsoever will move its business to hire the cheapest labor force possible in any field.

You want security, go in to the trades. No matter how hard they try they can't repair your leaky pipes or blown breaker from a sweatshop in India.


Oh, you just wait for telepresence to become a thing.  Then again, that'd probably lead to enough legal oddities to keep the lawyers entertained for a few years.
 
2013-01-31 03:32:19 PM
hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha

I have a little bit of schadenfreude with this.  No one is more delusionally self-assured than a second-year law student.  Maybe this will change things.

The coming unemployment for new lawyers has been talked about for the last decade, any of them who says they didn't see this coming are idiots.

I graduated six years ago while working full-time as an auditor.  I practiced for a couple of years and then got promoted back out of legal, thank God.  Auditing & accounting may have a lower ceiling, narrower scope, and less excitement, but it sure as hell is more secure.
 
2013-01-31 03:32:24 PM

TheAlmightyOS: jst3p: TheAlmightyOS: It has everything to do with location. The IT industry, as a whole, is doing very well. However, you live in a place like (for example) Michigan and the only job you're going to find is maintaining websites for some shady small business owner and getting minimum wage. That's what happened to me. Once I moved to Texas (specifically, Austin) I could not walk five feet without tripping over an IT job

CSB

A long time ago I lived in Spokane, Wa and I knew I wanted a career in IT. I made a list of areas with a high level of IT opportunities:


NY
Austin
Denver
Salt Lake City (no, really it is)
D.C.

Visited them all and decided where to move (I didn't include Silicon Valley or Seattle because I grew up in the valley and knew it well enough and living in Spokane I had enough experience in Seattle). I figured I would move and then get a degree in CS and start my career. There are other locations but these are the only ones I considered.

I moved to the Denver area (Boulder) and
through a friend of a friend got my first IT job with zero certs and no professional experience.

Location is everything.


Oh okey.

 
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