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(The New York Times)   Congratulations law students. You're now in the elite employment ranks of Future Starbucks Baristas, along with all those liberal arts masters degree holders   (nytimes.com) divider line 348
    More: Obvious, arts, master's degrees, University of Chicago Law School, law schools, rankings, upward mobility, class size, student debt  
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12587 clicks; posted to Main » on 31 Jan 2013 at 1:01 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-01-31 01:48:02 PM  

redmid17: Mugato: Law school. Memorize a bunch of court case precedents and terminally boring laws and learn to argue like an asshole. Doesn't impress me. farking Bush managed to get a law degree, ffs. Sure there was nepotism involved but he still made it to class.

W didn't have a law degree. He got an MBA.


Clinton got a BJ from a BBW.
 
2013-01-31 01:48:15 PM  

rumpelstiltskin: I know they won't give you your money back if you go to law school but don't get a job as a lawyer, but what about your soul? Do they at least return that?


You can sue them for both. At least they teach you how to do that.
 
2013-01-31 01:48:18 PM  

angrycrank: doyner: Chach: When you're a 3.1/158 and someone is still offering you admission, that is BAD

Unless of course you're a 3.1/158.

No, it's especially bad for the 3.1/158. As others have said, most people shouldn't go to law school and ESPECIALLY shouldn't go to a school outside the top 10. A school that would take a 3.1/158 will cheerfully take $45k a year from their students is going to have a terrible graduate unemployment rate, and probably crappy graduation and bar passage rates as well. A student with those stats is almost certainly better off not going to law school.


Yep. As long as Uncle Sam will loan you every dollar you ask for and the schools aren't on the hook when you wind up jobless, squarely screwing YOU, the best thing you can get is a rejection letter.
 
2013-01-31 01:50:05 PM  
Negotiated my own Divorce.

Ex took it to her lawyer and the lawyer told that my proposal was clean, fair, and that she (the ex) would spend more in legal fees than she would gain by challenging the settlement offer. I even included copies of the IRS Dependent Release Form to be signed as a condition of the settlement so no dicking around over 'night stayed' between the houses.

Magistrate complimented us (really me) on such a clean process, and that one of us must have a lawyer in the family. Yea, Uncle Internet.
 
2013-01-31 01:52:27 PM  
There's always porn, and who knows, doing porn, you might end up giving classes in primary school:

d24w6bsrhbeh9d.cloudfront.net
 
2013-01-31 01:52:43 PM  

EyeballKid: No field of study is safe, so long as any company with no sense of integrity whatsoever will move its business to hire the cheapest labor force possible in any field.


Just wondering.  What does hiring the cheapest labor force have to do with integrity?  I'd think finding the cheapest way to make a product or provide a service would show integrity to a company's shareholders - which in the end, are the only people a company is obligated to.
 
2013-01-31 01:53:02 PM  

Weaver95: nice to see law students in the same boat as the rest of us.  c'mon down to the protests and get your fair share of abuse!


There is legal crisis already upon this country that nbody really recognizes because they all hate lawyers so much.  When My Crim Law Professor graduated from Law School, he had about $7,000 in debt and took a decent paying job as a Public Defender because that's where his passion lay, in public service not profit.  I would have followed that same path when I graduated (he offered me a ltter of recommendation to any local PD's office, and his letters were as good as an automatic job offer because of his reputation).  The only problem was, I had 100K in Law School (only-undergrad was from savings) debt and the PD's office only paid about 40K/year  -a salary that would have made it impossible to support my wife and kid and pay my student loans and live in anything  but in a crackhouse  anywhere in the greater Chicago Area.

The same fact pattern  is making it nearly impossible for non-profits and advocacy groups to get any legal talent at all these days, and since they are often the folks on the front lines of vindicating your civil rights, keeping you out of jail, and generally standing up to "the Man", this is a very bad thing for everyone, whether they realize it or not.
 
2013-01-31 01:53:06 PM  

brap: vernonFL: My sister hasn't even graduated law school yet and she already has a job with the local DAs office.

My sister could kick your sisters ass.


His sister can sue your sister's ass though.
 
2013-01-31 01:54:21 PM  

Rincewind53: Weaver95: nice to see law students in the same boat as the rest of us.  c'mon down to the protests and get your fair share of abuse!

Actually, I'm trained to go down to the protests to act as legal observers for the National Lawyer's Guild, to protect protesters from police abuses.


I'm really sorry, but when I read your post here's what I read "Actually, I'm trained to go down on the protesters..."  You can tell where my mind is today...
 
2013-01-31 01:54:31 PM  
 
2013-01-31 01:54:48 PM  

Klivian: My girlfriend was sworn in to the MA bar back in November, and hasn't been able to find a gig outside of temping doing legal doc review. She wants to work as a public defender, which you would think is always in need of more warm bodies with law degrees, but apparently not.

/Yes, I lose every argument
//Not because she's a lawyer, but because I'm the guy in the relationship, ergo, wrong


That was my assumption. I figured trial or corporate attorneys would be in small demand, but that the overworked positions - like public defending - would need more bodies.
 
2013-01-31 01:56:42 PM  

ISubmittedThisYesterdayWithAMuchFunnierHeadline: I went to law school in the early 90s, but one of the primary things I learned in those 3 years was that I didn't really want to be a lawyer.  After college I worked in contract management for a large construction firm, and now 20 years later I own my own construction company.  My parents still occasionally make reference to all the time and money I "wasted" on law school, but in actuality I can't think of a better educational background for my line of work. It's always nice understanding the contract better than everyone else at the table.


Yeah, about half of the VPs in some of the companies I've worked at (EA, AOL being two of the biggies) had law degrees. The others were MBAs.

Going to law school doesn't mean being a lawyer.
 
2013-01-31 01:56:52 PM  
I guess making people jump through hoops isn't a good way to find quality candidates after all.

When I last checked in with law students, it was a race to see how many hours a day could be spent studying.

That cut out anyone with a life, an imagination, or a sense of proportion...
 
2013-01-31 01:58:13 PM  

Chach: doyner: Chach: When you're a 3.1/158 and someone is still offering you admission, that is BAD

Unless of course you're a 3.1/158.

They're not doing you a favor when you wind up jobless and a quarter mill in debt three years later.


Well shiat!  Why have law school at all?  Have a 4.0 in basket weaving and get 170 on the LSAT and you're ready to take the bar!
 
2013-01-31 01:59:10 PM  

sigdiamond2000: Cyberluddite: Certainly some people find good and satisfying jobs, and do it right away (hell, I did, for that matter).

Were you a young, brash rainmaker who used your natural spunky charm to step on some toes and put the system on trial?


Is she a single, pretty young white woman who can't find love because of her hectic schedule and cold indifference to people who show her affection, until one confident mail clerk with a dream swept her off of her feet and showed her how to love again?
 
2013-01-31 01:59:42 PM  

Nabb1: This is relevant to the discussion:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nMvARy0lBLE

And hilarious, because it's true.


" Have you ever agreed to a mediation, and then discovered the other side only requested it
  so a process server could trap your client in the bathroom of a Wendy's? "

Lol
 
2013-01-31 02:00:21 PM  

devildog123: He didn't take another commission because it isn't quite as easy as it sounds, especially these days.  The military is trying to downsize, so, if you just went to college, no ROTC, no Green to Gold, you most likely aren't going to be able to show up and get a commission.  It's easier and more likely to get sent to OCS by enlisting first.  But even that's getting harder.  My wife's assistant is a brand new prior enlisted 2nd Lt. fresh from OCS and OBC.  His OCS class had 150 enlisted students all with their degrees, but only needed 85 to get their commissions.  You could make it all the way through to graduation, and if they had too many people left, you would be sent back to your old unit as an enlisted to try again later.  This is not 2008-2009, when they were offering officers cash incentives to stay in, they have all the bodies they need and then some.


Damn.  Yeah.  Times have changed since I was commissioned...
 
2013-01-31 02:00:32 PM  

DROxINxTHExWIND: sigdiamond2000: Cyberluddite: Certainly some people find good and satisfying jobs, and do it right away (hell, I did, for that matter).

Were you a young, brash rainmaker who used your natural spunky charm to step on some toes and put the system on trial?

Is she a single, pretty young white woman who can't find love because of her hectic schedule and cold indifference to people who show her affection, until one confident mail clerk with a dream swept her off of her feet and showed her how to love again?


Dro, you have to quit it with your Harlequin Romance addiction.
 
2013-01-31 02:01:48 PM  

Supes: Note to young/potential lawyers out there: For the sake of your career, specialize in something early that you believe will exist long into the future. The problem is young lawyers are very fungible. You want that specialty to make yourself harder to replace and more desirable to hire.  Good options at the moment include IP, securities, tax.... things that will continue to be around for the foreseeable future.


This man Speaks the truth.  I got lucky and got a job right out of Law School, but it was as much managerial as legal, but at $80K I wasn't complaining-then at least)  When it evaporated after 5 years (contractor lost the contract)  I found myself pounding the pavement and finding that simply having a law degree wasn't impressing anyone.after about six weeks I went back and re-did my seume adding in every special skill I could think of.  That proved to be the key to all my susbequent jobs I've had.  I worked one FOIA request for the government agency i was contracting at as a favor to the senior counsel, and adding that one line to my resume got me call after call  FROM recruiters and all the Jobs I've had since.
 
2013-01-31 02:02:30 PM  

8 inches: EyeballKid: No field of study is safe, so long as any company with no sense of integrity whatsoever will move its business to hire the cheapest labor force possible in any field.

Just wondering.  What does hiring the cheapest labor force have to do with integrity?  I'd think finding the cheapest way to make a product or provide a service would show integrity to a company's shareholders - which in the end, are the only people a company is obligated to.


Ever hear of, "You get what you pay for?"
 
2013-01-31 02:03:47 PM  

Aar1012: Mugato: Law farking Bush managed to get a law degree, ffs. Sure there was nepotism involved but he still made it to class.

No, he didn't.

George H. W. Bush only went to Yale for undergrad

George W. Bush went to Yale for undergrad and then to Harvard for Business


My bad.

Business, law.They're both bullshiat. Does another dozen people want to point out my error?
 
2013-01-31 02:05:15 PM  

Mugato: Does another dozen people want to point out my error?


FIFY.

YW.
 
2013-01-31 02:05:38 PM  
abovethelaw.com
 
2013-01-31 02:06:36 PM  
Because People in power are Stupid: "Why don't they just work in Intellectual Property where they can make money by stealing other people's ideas and patenting them? "

Patent lawyers tend to hold one or more engineering degrees.
And when you have one or more engineering degrees, well, you don't work at Starbucks much.
 
2013-01-31 02:08:01 PM  
I know several lawyers. They are not happy about the glut of new lawyers coming out of law school. They are happy, however, about having a job before the brazillion newbies hit the marketplace. I also know some doctors. They think lawyers are prime candidates for nerve gas testing, seeing as rats are further up the food chain, and are too valuable to use as test subjects.I know some engineers got hired because they don't care what state they live in. Time looking for a new job: 2 weeks. Hired right out of college. Knew a chemical engineer who didn't want to leave the city. 6 months looking for a job. Finally got one through a friend. Making less than he would if he had been willing to drive a ways north every week. Petroleum position. Wyoming./l know some of both lawyers and doctors who are friends, but they are weird on their own way//engineer in training
 
2013-01-31 02:08:34 PM  
25.media.tumblr.com
We might be getting around to the point where more people can afford to have their own lawyers.

/Holy farknuts, the interface has changed.
 
2013-01-31 02:10:50 PM  

Trance354: I know several lawyers. They are not happy about the glut of new lawyers coming out of law school. They are happy, however, about having a job before the brazillion newbies hit the marketplace. I also know some doctors. They think lawyers are prime candidates for nerve gas testing, seeing as rats are further up the food chain, and are too valuable to use as test subjects.I know some engineers got hired because they don't care what state they live in. Time looking for a new job: 2 weeks. Hired right out of college. Knew a chemical engineer who didn't want to leave the city. 6 months looking for a job. Finally got one through a friend. Making less than he would if he had been willing to drive a ways north every week. Petroleum position. Wyoming./l know some of both lawyers and doctors who are friends, but they are weird on their own way//engineer in training


I know a girl who thinks of ghosts. She'll make ya breakfast, she'll make ya toast. She don't use butter, she don't use cheese. She don't use jelly....or any of these. She uses vaseline.
 
2013-01-31 02:11:20 PM  
What, the market for slip and fall scumbags has dried up?
 
2013-01-31 02:11:29 PM  

RexTalionis: DROxINxTHExWIND: sigdiamond2000: Cyberluddite: Certainly some people find good and satisfying jobs, and do it right away (hell, I did, for that matter).

Were you a young, brash rainmaker who used your natural spunky charm to step on some toes and put the system on trial?

Is she a single, pretty young white woman who can't find love because of her hectic schedule and cold indifference to people who show her affection, until one confident mail clerk with a dream swept her off of her feet and showed her how to love again?

Dro, you have to quit it with your Harlequin Romance addiction.


Its an excerpt from my new book, "30 Shades of Black". Its about a white lawyer who is caught in a love square with three black guys. Its going straight to DVD starring Terrence Howard, Carmelo Anthony, and Wesley Snipes.
 
2013-01-31 02:13:02 PM  

Mugato: Aar1012: Mugato: Law farking Bush managed to get a law degree, ffs. Sure there was nepotism involved but he still made it to class.

No, he didn't.

George H. W. Bush only went to Yale for undergrad

George W. Bush went to Yale for undergrad and then to Harvard for Business

My bad.

Business, law.They're both bullshiat. Does another dozen people want to point out my error?


Zero sympathy for not googling before posting in a thread likely to be populated by people who get paid to be pedantic

/:-)
 
2013-01-31 02:14:17 PM  

DROxINxTHExWIND: RexTalionis: DROxINxTHExWIND: sigdiamond2000: Cyberluddite: Certainly some people find good and satisfying jobs, and do it right away (hell, I did, for that matter).

Were you a young, brash rainmaker who used your natural spunky charm to step on some toes and put the system on trial?

Is she a single, pretty young white woman who can't find love because of her hectic schedule and cold indifference to people who show her affection, until one confident mail clerk with a dream swept her off of her feet and showed her how to love again?

Dro, you have to quit it with your Harlequin Romance addiction.

Its an excerpt from my new book, "30 Shades of Black". Its about a white lawyer who is caught in a love square with three black guys. Its going straight to DVD starring Terrence Howard, Carmelo Anthony, and Wesley Snipes.


That's not how shades work.
 
2013-01-31 02:15:00 PM  
I've been a lawyer for 6 years.  Last night, I broke the news to my wife that I want to become a teacher... so I can make more money.

/3.1/159, so take that.
 
2013-01-31 02:15:25 PM  
I tried grad school twice. First time for an MBA and I hated it. Then I tried MIS and despised it. If I ever go back, it'll be for an MA, because I'll work hard, finish it and love it. I'd rather put my effort in something I'll work hard at for years to come and feel fulfilled, than something I'll bust my balls off for, hate, and maybe do well enough to coast later (While fully regretting all the effort it took to get to the coasting point).
 
2013-01-31 02:15:41 PM  

CygnusDarius: There's always porn, and who knows, doing porn, you might end up giving classes in primary school:

[d24w6bsrhbeh9d.cloudfront.net image 700x1344]


Good.
 
2013-01-31 02:17:01 PM  

Koalaesq: pute kisses like a man: i just became a lawyer, and I'm one of those jerks who has a job but is looking for a better one.  (primarily because my current job sucks.  the pay for a young lawyer is balls.  and, it can be.  i'd be replaced in a second for someone who would probably work for less and probably be not that much worse.  luckily, my boss likes my work.  i just need more of it.).

/ even thought about JAG.  could be interesting, and I could force everyone to call me doctor lieutenant esquire

Mazel tov on the degree. Yes, the pay is awful, but just suck up knowledge and experience and then go out on your own if you have to!


thanks.

i like law and lawyering and I get it.  law just clicks in my mind.  it's probably the easiest profession for me to fall into.  unfortunately, the law seems to be a fraction of the job.  a lot of the work is uncompensable stuff like finding work or getting paid for work you've done.
 
2013-01-31 02:17:35 PM  
The United States has 5 percent of the world's population, 25 percent of the world's incarcerated people, and 50 percent of the world's lawyers.
 
2013-01-31 02:17:59 PM  

Nabb1: This is relevant to the discussion:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nMvARy0lBLE

And hilarious, because it's true.


Holy shiat, that's farking awesome--thanks for that!  And every single word if it is spot-on accurate.
 
2013-01-31 02:18:48 PM  

Chach: T14 or don't go.

Law students aren't doing badly. Law students at bad law schools are doing badly.

Go to Harvard, Yale, Stanford, NYU, Chicago, Columbia, Michigan, Virginia, Penn, Cornell, Georgetown, Berkeley, or Duke, or Northwestern. Fine, maybe Texas ... maybe UCLA. But that's it!


Mind you, employers who hire from those law schools aren't doing great. We've had some truly awful Harvard grads and they usually wash out quickly once its apparent that they don't know how to actually work for a living.
No, give me the man or woman who worked for several years before law school, and preferably worked <I>during</I> law school. They can handle a heavy workload.
 
2013-01-31 02:22:04 PM  

pute kisses like a man: a lot of the work is uncompensable stuff like finding work or getting paid for work you've done


Aha, THAT is the stuff that I like least about law, and why I much prefer in house counsel or non-profit/ legal aid stuff. I've never had to do billable hours in my life, and even though I get paid less, I know I'm getting a pay check at the end of the day and I don't have to fight for money. The law would be the perfect profession if it were just THE LAW and not the incidentals.
 
2013-01-31 02:25:01 PM  
my class, '05, was on the vanguard of the great decline

but i guess having work for a few years beats coming out and finding nothing waiting for you

 /holy shiat! has it really been nearly 8 years?
 
2013-01-31 02:27:13 PM  

Demagol: I graduated in 2009 and was one of the lucky ones. The firm I was interning with offered me an associate position when I passed the bar. There are a lot of my classmates out of work though, who have gone back for their MBA or other degrees to defer the loans...while racking up more debt.


I just managed to get an MBA.  My job reimbursed tuition, so I only paid for books.  I am not entirely what to do with the silly thing now that I have it.  What does entry level MBA work even look like?
 
2013-01-31 02:28:08 PM  

kronicfeld: sigdiamond2000: vernonFL: My sister hasn't even graduated law school yet and she already has a job with the local DAs office.

Is she a young, brash rainmaker who's going to use her natural spunky charm to step on some toes and put the system on trial?

Single Female Lawyer
Havin' lots of sex



 
2013-01-31 02:29:26 PM  

Supes: Good options at the moment include IP, securities, tax.... things that will continue to be around for the foreseeable future.


IP is really only a good option if you either have a computer science/eng or EE degree, or a Ph.D. in something like biochem.  I graduated cum laude from a top 10 law school, have 8 years at a top 50 firm, USPTO registered, and am stuck doing a contract job because I can barely get even get an initial interview in the area I did a lot of work in (pharma) because I have the wrong degree.  EE/CompSci though are in extremely high demand.
 
2013-01-31 02:31:12 PM  

GQueue: I graduated cum laude from a top 10 law school, have 8 years at a top 50 firm, USPTO registered, and am stuck doing a contract job because I can barely get even get an initial interview in the area I did a lot of work in (pharma) because I have the wrong degree.  EE/CompSci though are in extremely high demand.


Learn to program and then try to bridge the gap and go for bioinformatics?
 
2013-01-31 02:31:28 PM  

Mugato: Law school. Memorize a bunch of court case precedents and terminally boring laws and learn to argue like an asshole. Doesn't impress me. farking Bush managed to get a law degree, ffs. Sure there was nepotism involved but he still made it to class.


Eh, the nepotism was just in getting _into_ that school in the first place, he graduated entirely on his own merits.  With a C average, by all accounts, but like my old advisor used to say, D is for "diploma".

It's just not actually that hard or even that arcane.  The weird illusion that we had going through the '80s and '90s that cops and industrial workers were normal, kinda dim fellows and lawyers were the sharp-as-a-tack elite of arcane intellectualism seems to have died out again, probably because so many jobs now require some intermediate level of legal training.  And not high-falutin' jobs, either, I had to memorize the laws and know the common interpretations for an entire legal specialty (rent law) just to sit behind a desk and answer phones and sell apartments when I was a wee undergrad scraping through on minimum wage and cheap cocaine guts.

Not to mention basically everybody and their mother has a lawyer in the extended, if not immediate, family these days, for exactly the same reason -- it's the only real way to defend ourselves against the litigation boom of the '90s, so everyone considers it a viable option.

Or, to put it another way, an amateur mechanic is harder to find these days than the equivalent of a fully trained paralegal.

//Doctors have a similar issue with increasing numbers resulting in decreasing paychecks.  In their case it's mitigated by their profession actually being difficult rather than just dry and obscure, though.  Lawyers don't really have that protection, as anyone with the free time can do it.  Hell, in some states you can take (and pass) the bar without technically going to law school, and people have done it.
 
2013-01-31 02:31:32 PM  

Frozboz: Weaver95: RexTalionis: I did law because working as a programmer/IT technician seems like soul-crushing work.

Anyway, is anyone interested in hiring an IT guy who knows his way around the law?

shiat - i'm STILL looking for a job.  the IT field is pretty thin right now.

You're joking right?  My company is set to hire 100 IT workers of all types (programmers, DBAs, architects, infrastructure) this year, and we're turning away work we have such a high demand.  Our team alone could double in size and still not get all our work done.  I was about to get laid off last year (due to larger contractual issues between two companies), looked for a job for a week and got 2 offers, both paying 20%+ more than I was making the past two years.  I don't get where this "IT field is hurting" stuff is coming from.


It has everything to do with location. The IT industry, as a whole, is doing very well. However, you live in a place like (for example) Michigan and the only job you're going to find is maintaining websites for some shady small business owner and getting minimum wage. That's what happened to me. Once I moved to Texas (specifically, Austin) I could not walk five feet without tripping over an IT job

/just need to finish my certification and then I can start applying for the better ones.
//At current pace, one more month before I am confident I can pass. Two months before I am confident I can pay for the exam
 
2013-01-31 02:33:14 PM  

Grand_Moff_Joseph: What we need are engineers and scientists.


That would require taking real math classes, so it will never happen. I'm not complaining though. It just means more job security for me.
 
2013-01-31 02:33:26 PM  
My wife has a law degree... but she is not making a living as a lawyer.  Instead, she has made a very nice living doing contract management work for a few different companies.  Companies look for people with law degrees to fill those positions.
 
2013-01-31 02:35:35 PM  
You have to be insane to go to law school today. Not only has tuition ratcheted up (my school's has almost tripled since I went in the 1990s), but computers have taken a lot of the work away. Years ago, I was part of a team (two attorneys, several paralegals) doing a massive document review looking for anything connected to the case we were defending. We were on the client's site with over a thousand boxes of old correspondence, memos etc. Took us almost 2 months to get through it. Today, those documents would be scanned into digital form by some low wage kid and a computer would do the rest. As more and more grunt work gets automated and sent overseas, we will have less need for highly trained attorneys. There are just not enough good jobs to justify laying out $150k.

The whole law school education process needs to be changed. Enough with the three year one size fits all method. Some attorneys want the education law school provides to run their family business or go into some other alternate career. They don't need to take classes on writing briefs, moot court or international relations. But they could use more time with business law, contracts, negotiation, labor etc. Let some go for less time and money.
 
2013-01-31 02:36:59 PM  
As someone hired because his MA suggested he could translate code-monkey into English, I'm getting a kick out of this thread. No, seriously.
 
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