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(The New York Times)   Congratulations law students. You're now in the elite employment ranks of Future Starbucks Baristas, along with all those liberal arts masters degree holders   (nytimes.com) divider line 348
    More: Obvious, arts, master's degrees, University of Chicago Law School, law schools, rankings, upward mobility, class size, student debt  
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12584 clicks; posted to Main » on 31 Jan 2013 at 1:01 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-01-31 01:08:12 PM

kwame: You mean stubbornly enrolling in a professional school for a career field that is completely saturated with qualified people, then doing nothing to separate yourself from the crowd means it's hard to get a job?  F*ck.  That's amazing.


I think that's the thing. The people who are excelling are still getting jobs. The people who used to get jobs just by nature of having a degree are not. And the people who used to get jobs just by being  good, but not excelling, are not, which is the  real problem.
 
2013-01-31 01:08:19 PM
Wouldn't declining enrollment indicate that those who graduate have better job prospects assuming demand stays the same or increases due to population increase?
 
2013-01-31 01:08:58 PM

xanadian: Gee.  Fewer lawyers.  Whatever are we gonna do?

[28.media.tumblr.com image 500x281]


With less competition, it means the rest of us get more money.
 
2013-01-31 01:10:20 PM

Cyberluddite: Rincewind53: Not me, I'm pretty and special and will graduate with money just raining down on me like some sort of cash bukkake.

As a lawyer myself, I've tried to talk many youngsters out of going to law school and becoming lawyers (including in TFD some advice threads over the years) , with tales of horrible working conditions, long hours, shiatty pay, poor job prospects, and widespread career dissatisfaction among most of my colleagues.  It always falls on deaf ears, and your sarcastic comment above is not too far off from what they actually say and seem to believe.  Unless I happen to talk to them a few years later, when I typically hear the "You were right--I wish I'd listened then" sort of comments.


Veterinarians are in the same place right now.
 
2013-01-31 01:11:30 PM

Cyberluddite: As a lawyer myself, I've tried to talk many youngsters out of going to law school and becoming lawyers (including in TFD some advice threads over the years) , with tales of horrible working conditions, long hours, shiatty pay, poor job prospects, and widespread career dissatisfaction among most of my colleagues.  It always falls on deaf ears, and your sarcastic comment above is not too far off from what they actually say and seem to believe.  Unless I happen to talk to them a few years later, when I typically hear the "You were right--I wish I'd listened then" sort of comments.


Someone like yourself managed to talk me out of law school a few years ago, and I was very glad I took the advice.  Not at the time, mind you---you think that you're making a big mistake by passing up the opportunity.  But nowadays, I'm very pleased that I decided not to go.
 
2013-01-31 01:11:33 PM

Cyberluddite: Rincewind53: Not me, I'm pretty and special and will graduate with money just raining down on me like some sort of cash bukkake.

As a lawyer myself, I've tried to talk many youngsters out of going to law school and becoming lawyers (including in TFD some advice threads over the years) , with tales of horrible working conditions, long hours, shiatty pay, poor job prospects, and widespread career dissatisfaction among most of my colleagues.  It always falls on deaf ears, and your sarcastic comment above is not too far off from what they actually say and seem to believe.  Unless I happen to talk to them a few years later, when I typically hear the "You were right--I wish I'd listened then" sort of comments.


I advise for pre-Law students and this man speaks the truth. I make them read a few articles on how bad prospects are. How going to a low-ranked law school is a waste of money unless they're going into the family practice. Hell, anything outside the top 15 or so is a waste.

I had the dean of the State law School here last year. He said the exact same thing you did. I loved him, because he didn't bullshiat the students.
 
2013-01-31 01:11:50 PM

Rincewind53: kwame: You mean stubbornly enrolling in a professional school for a career field that is completely saturated with qualified people, then doing nothing to separate yourself from the crowd means it's hard to get a job?  F*ck.  That's amazing.

I think that's the thing. The people who are excelling are still getting jobs. The people who used to get jobs just by nature of having a degree are not. And the people who used to get jobs just by being  good, but not excelling, are not, which is the  real problem.


I think in law school (maybe like most fields?) it's not what you know, it's WHO you know. When I clerked, every single other clerk there save for one knew someone who got him or her the gig, and then of course the Judges helped us get good jobs afterwards
 
2013-01-31 01:12:13 PM
i just became a lawyer, and I'm one of those jerks who has a job but is looking for a better one.  (primarily because my current job sucks.  the pay for a young lawyer is balls.  and, it can be.  i'd be replaced in a second for someone who would probably work for less and probably be not that much worse.  luckily, my boss likes my work.  i just need more of it.).

/ even thought about JAG.  could be interesting, and I could force everyone to call me doctor lieutenant esquire
 
2013-01-31 01:12:18 PM
Have we finally hit peak lawsuit?
 
2013-01-31 01:13:08 PM
This is relevant to the discussion:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nMvARy0lBLE

And hilarious, because it's true.
 
2013-01-31 01:13:28 PM
This really isn't anything new.

Unlike the AMA or the AVMA and countless others; there isn't a strong political force to artificially limit the supply of lawyers.  The median wage is actually quite low when you consider the number of years it typically takes to become a lawyer.

That's median though.  Super-star lawyers are a different thing entirely.  It's also why it's a really big deal *where* you went to law school and how well you did.

It used to be that a piece of paper didn't determine your career.  It was the result of a lifetime of being awesome or sucky or somewhere in between.  Now that 'enough' people all have the same paper, we're pissing away a ton of money and lots of years to get back to a level playing field where the good people enjoy well paying jobs and the sucky ones struggle to find jobs.  It's just now everyone owes 100k and wasted four years of their life to get there.  Progress!
 
2013-01-31 01:14:37 PM
Hell, I'm having a hard time finding an engineering job with a Master's.
 
2013-01-31 01:15:03 PM

Koalaesq: Rincewind53: kwame: You mean stubbornly enrolling in a professional school for a career field that is completely saturated with qualified people, then doing nothing to separate yourself from the crowd means it's hard to get a job?  F*ck.  That's amazing.

I think that's the thing. The people who are excelling are still getting jobs. The people who used to get jobs just by nature of having a degree are not. And the people who used to get jobs just by being  good, but not excelling, are not, which is the  real problem.

I think in law school (maybe like most fields?) it's not what you know, it's WHO you know. When I clerked, every single other clerk there save for one knew someone who got him or her the gig, and then of course the Judges helped us get good jobs afterwards


Yep, that's definitely part of it. My dad dated a woman in college, and forty years later, she's now a federal judge, and they're still somewhat friends. 'm considering using that just to get my foot in the door and my resume looked at, which makes me feel like a shiatty human being, but I justify it to myself by saying "Everyone else is doing it."

And they are. A friend of a friend got a Circuit Court clerkship because he worked with someone who was friends with the judge.
 
2013-01-31 01:15:15 PM

pute kisses like a man: i just became a lawyer, and I'm one of those jerks who has a job but is looking for a better one.  (primarily because my current job sucks.  the pay for a young lawyer is balls.  and, it can be.  i'd be replaced in a second for someone who would probably work for less and probably be not that much worse.  luckily, my boss likes my work.  i just need more of it.).

/ even thought about JAG.  could be interesting, and I could force everyone to call me doctor lieutenant esquire


Mazel tov on the degree. Yes, the pay is awful, but just suck up knowledge and experience and then go out on your own if you have to!
 
2013-01-31 01:15:36 PM
Just go chase a few ambulances, you'll be fine. You have to fish where the fish are.
 
2013-01-31 01:15:42 PM
This is not news. This was a problem for the class of 2009, even in top law schools. I graduted in 2011 from a top 25 law school and bounced around for a year after graduation before finding a stable job. Most of my friends did the same and some are looking for something better.

There are too many lawyers. We don't need 100s of lawyers for doc review. When doc review is necessary, there are companies that will hire lawyers on a cheap contract basis to do the work. With modern technology it takes about 1/4th of the lawyers than it did 30 years ago, but there are way more lawyers than there were back then. If you can't get into a HYSCCNMPV, then its a waste of money, even if you want to do public interest.

If you want to do public interest, you have to either have connections, go to a strong regional school, or go to one of the top ten. Even prosecutor jobs are hard to get these days... and forget about the ACLU. Why would they hire some NYLS grad when they can get a Michign grad for the same price.

And if you can't get into Yale, your chances of becoming a professor are so small that you would need an electron microscope to see it.
 
2013-01-31 01:16:02 PM

Nabb1: RexTalionis: Boy, ain't that the truth.


Why, I'll sue you for calling me "boy".

[negro community frowns . . .jpg]

/not African American but hey! the law applies to everyone
//legally obligated to place this 2nd slashie.
 
2013-01-31 01:16:12 PM
It seems the US has met its lawyer quota. Not soon enough, though
 
2013-01-31 01:16:34 PM

Spartacus Outlaw: Cyberluddite: Rincewind53: Not me, I'm pretty and special and will graduate with money just raining down on me like some sort of cash bukkake.

As a lawyer myself, I've tried to talk many youngsters out of going to law school and becoming lawyers (including in TFD some advice threads over the years) , with tales of horrible working conditions, long hours, shiatty pay, poor job prospects, and widespread career dissatisfaction among most of my colleagues.  It always falls on deaf ears, and your sarcastic comment above is not too far off from what they actually say and seem to believe.  Unless I happen to talk to them a few years later, when I typically hear the "You were right--I wish I'd listened then" sort of comments.

Veterinarians are in the same place right now.


THIS TIME A MILLION....

Eight years of post-high school education in an incredibly competitive environment....to finish with one of the absolute worst median student debt to income ratio.
 
2013-01-31 01:16:43 PM

Rincewind53: Koalaesq: Rincewind53: kwame: You mean stubbornly enrolling in a professional school for a career field that is completely saturated with qualified people, then doing nothing to separate yourself from the crowd means it's hard to get a job?  F*ck.  That's amazing.

I think that's the thing. The people who are excelling are still getting jobs. The people who used to get jobs just by nature of having a degree are not. And the people who used to get jobs just by being  good, but not excelling, are not, which is the  real problem.

I think in law school (maybe like most fields?) it's not what you know, it's WHO you know. When I clerked, every single other clerk there save for one knew someone who got him or her the gig, and then of course the Judges helped us get good jobs afterwards

Yep, that's definitely part of it. My dad dated a woman in college, and forty years later, she's now a federal judge, and they're still somewhat friends. 'm considering using that just to get my foot in the door and my resume looked at, which makes me feel like a shiatty human being, but I justify it to myself by saying "Everyone else is doing it."

And they are. A friend of a friend got a Circuit Court clerkship because he worked with someone who was friends with the judge.


I admit that I had an in that got me the clerkship, too. I felt crappy about it, but I worked my ass off and really tried hard and learned a lot, so at least I felt 'worthy' of that honor, know what I mean? Use your connections, just make the most of them.
 
2013-01-31 01:16:55 PM
Anyone planning to enter law school now, or having entered only 2-3 years ago should know they are setting themselves up for a tough road ahead.  If they think there are lots of great jobs to go around for J.D.s, they are kidding themselves.  Smartest thing I figured I could do was go back and get a technical degree while working full time and not putting myself in debt.

/Our attorneys start at my starting salary
//And I don't have law school debt
 
2013-01-31 01:17:26 PM

Rincewind53: Actually, I'm trained to go down to the protests to act as legal observers for the National Lawyer's Guild, to protect protesters from police abuses.


I applaud your effort
 
2013-01-31 01:17:32 PM

Weaver95: RexTalionis: I did law because working as a programmer/IT technician seems like soul-crushing work.

Anyway, is anyone interested in hiring an IT guy who knows his way around the law?

shiat - i'm STILL looking for a job.  the IT field is pretty thin right now.


No it isn't you have said this in other threads and I show you that it isn't the case. It may be an issue for you or locally but overall IT unemployment is far lower than national unemployment.

We have open positions both here and in San Jose that we can't fill because we can't find a good match between our requirements and strong candidates.
 
2013-01-31 01:17:49 PM

SN1987a goes boom: Hell, I'm having a hard time finding an engineering job with a Master's.


Mechanical engineering?  The dude got his degree in ME.  He does IT Security now....
 
2013-01-31 01:17:56 PM

pute kisses like a man: i just became a lawyer, and I'm one of those jerks who has a job but is looking for a better one.  (primarily because my current job sucks.  the pay for a young lawyer is balls.  and, it can be.  i'd be replaced in a second for someone who would probably work for less and probably be not that much worse.  luckily, my boss likes my work.  i just need more of it.).

/ even thought about JAG.  could be interesting, and I could force everyone to call me doctor lieutenant esquire


JAG is like a 5% selection rate and they really only take people dedicated to the military. In 2008 they were way less selective, but now they can pick and choose.
 
2013-01-31 01:18:36 PM
Note to young/potential lawyers out there: For the sake of your career, specialize in something early that you believe will exist long into the future. The problem is young lawyers are very fungible. You want that specialty to make yourself harder to replace and more desirable to hire.  Good options at the moment include IP, securities, tax.... things that will continue to be around for the foreseeable future.
 
2013-01-31 01:18:54 PM

zeroman987: If you want to do public interest, you have to either have connections, go to a strong regional school, or go to one of the top ten. Even prosecutor jobs are hard to get these days... and forget about the ACLU. Why would they hire some NYLS grad when they can get a Michign grad for the same price.


I've found that if you want to be a PD, you need to intern for one your 1L summer AND your 2L summer AND be damn good at school. Hell, I'm keeping that option open even if I don't work for a PD this summer, by doing an externship with a PD in the fall of my 3L year.
 
2013-01-31 01:19:21 PM

zeroman987: pute kisses like a man: i just became a lawyer, and I'm one of those jerks who has a job but is looking for a better one.  (primarily because my current job sucks.  the pay for a young lawyer is balls.  and, it can be.  i'd be replaced in a second for someone who would probably work for less and probably be not that much worse.  luckily, my boss likes my work.  i just need more of it.).

/ even thought about JAG.  could be interesting, and I could force everyone to call me doctor lieutenant esquire

JAG is like a 5% selection rate and they really only take people dedicated to the military. In 2008 they were way less selective, but now they can pick and choose.


A friend of mine is in law school now for JAG.  Apparently now, it's common for the Marines to choose someone who wants to go to law school, and help them pay for law school on the condition they do well, then they are guaranteed the job.
 
2013-01-31 01:19:49 PM
Cause in most countries lawyers are pretty much at the level of accountants, architects, engineers, etc... not like you need much training to file paperwork.
 
2013-01-31 01:19:58 PM

RexTalionis: Weaver95: RexTalionis: I did law because working as a programmer/IT technician seems like soul-crushing work.

Anyway, is anyone interested in hiring an IT guy who knows his way around the law?

shiat - i'm STILL looking for a job.  the IT field is pretty thin right now.

That sucks, dude. What is your location? Maybe a change of locale might help?


I was an IT guy, too. Worked for a large but now bankrupt telecom company. Everybody is getting laid off one by one around me, and I'm looking out the window and see the law school three blocks away. Walked over on my lunch hour and told the Admissions lady "I am TIRED of having companies sink out from under me, or be the first to go when senior management screws up and the bean counters have to axe people to try and do damage control for the balance sheet and investors." That was March 2005, took the LSAT in June, and got in the class starting that fall.

I got lucky and got offered a Federal job in October 2008 (and knew that the economy has been in a death spiral since 2001, having lived it) and hell yes I took it. Yeah, it was only 45k a year to start with, but my stars the stability and security! And after ten years, the Federal loans at least will be forgiven.

I'm basicly happy, and I know I'm lucky.

USAJOBS.GOV is your friend.
 
2013-01-31 01:20:00 PM

Supes: Note to young/potential lawyers out there: For the sake of your career, specialize in something early that you believe will exist long into the future. The problem is young lawyers are very fungible. You want that specialty to make yourself harder to replace and more desirable to hire.  Good options at the moment include IP, securities, tax.... things that will continue to be around for the foreseeable future.


PATENTS.  If you have any sort of technical degree, there are always jobs for patent attorneys from what I have seen.
 
2013-01-31 01:20:04 PM

Cyberluddite: Rincewind53: Not me, I'm pretty and special and will graduate with money just raining down on me like some sort of cash bukkake.

As a lawyer myself, I've tried to talk many youngsters out of going to law school and becoming lawyers (including in TFD some advice threads over the years) , with tales of horrible working conditions, long hours, shiatty pay, poor job prospects, and widespread career dissatisfaction among most of my colleagues.  It always falls on deaf ears, and your sarcastic comment above is not too far off from what they actually say and seem to believe.  Unless I happen to talk to them a few years later, when I typically hear the "You were right--I wish I'd listened then" sort of comments.


May I ask you, or any of the other law-types here, what you do like about being a lawyer? Just asking out of genuine curiosity. Does the profession just suck overall, or is it more a matter of matching your interests/skills to the right area of law, or of newbies having unreasonable expectations? I have a friend who passed the bar about a year ago and is working family law currently, and HATES it. His interest is business law; totally different animal!
 
2013-01-31 01:20:29 PM
I predict a massive increase in the old "no, you only gave me a $10" scam at Starbucks.
 
2013-01-31 01:20:40 PM

Koalaesq: Rincewind53: Koalaesq: Rincewind53: kwame: You mean stubbornly enrolling in a professional school for a career field that is completely saturated with qualified people, then doing nothing to separate yourself from the crowd means it's hard to get a job?  F*ck.  That's amazing.

I think that's the thing. The people who are excelling are still getting jobs. The people who used to get jobs just by nature of having a degree are not. And the people who used to get jobs just by being  good, but not excelling, are not, which is the  real problem.

I think in law school (maybe like most fields?) it's not what you know, it's WHO you know. When I clerked, every single other clerk there save for one knew someone who got him or her the gig, and then of course the Judges helped us get good jobs afterwards

Yep, that's definitely part of it. My dad dated a woman in college, and forty years later, she's now a federal judge, and they're still somewhat friends. 'm considering using that just to get my foot in the door and my resume looked at, which makes me feel like a shiatty human being, but I justify it to myself by saying "Everyone else is doing it."

And they are. A friend of a friend got a Circuit Court clerkship because he worked with someone who was friends with the judge.

I admit that I had an in that got me the clerkship, too. I felt crappy about it, but I worked my ass off and really tried hard and learned a lot, so at least I felt 'worthy' of that honor, know what I mean? Use your connections, just make the most of them.


Yep, that's what I'm thinking too. And I'll honestly have a resume that is actually pretty damn good (straight out brag, not humblebrag), but I know there are easily 100 people applying to the same clerkships with as good or better resumes, so without that in...
 
2013-01-31 01:20:43 PM
hahaha, sorry but i just have to laugh. When i was in high school i was told by my guidance coulselors that going to school for music and the arts was a waste and you could only be successful if you were in business,law or a doctor. Now, i work in TV a recession proof job and make about 6 figures, so suck it! and my liberal arts degree cost nothing!
 
2013-01-31 01:20:45 PM

zeroman987: This is not news. This was a problem for the class of 2009, even in top law schools. I graduted in 2011 from a top 25 law school and bounced around for a year after graduation before finding a stable job. Most of my friends did the same and some are looking for something better.


Sorry you got scammed. Only lawyers in the top 5, maybe 10 are finding jobs that require their skills as lawyers. Other schools are fudging graduate employment stats to continue to attract students.
 
2013-01-31 01:21:23 PM

Goodluckfox: RexTalionis: Weaver95: RexTalionis: I did law because working as a programmer/IT technician seems like soul-crushing work.

Anyway, is anyone interested in hiring an IT guy who knows his way around the law?

shiat - i'm STILL looking for a job.  the IT field is pretty thin right now.

That sucks, dude. What is your location? Maybe a change of locale might help?

I was an IT guy, too. Worked for a large but now bankrupt telecom company. Everybody is getting laid off one by one around me, and I'm looking out the window and see the law school three blocks away. Walked over on my lunch hour and told the Admissions lady "I am TIRED of having companies sink out from under me, or be the first to go when senior management screws up and the bean counters have to axe people to try and do damage control for the balance sheet and investors." That was March 2005, took the LSAT in June, and got in the class starting that fall.

I got lucky and got offered a Federal job in October 2008 (and knew that the economy has been in a death spiral since 2001, having lived it) and hell yes I took it. Yeah, it was only 45k a year to start with, but my stars the stability and security! And after ten years, the Federal loans at least will be forgiven.

I'm basicly happy, and I know I'm lucky.

USAJOBS.GOV is your friend.


LOL.  We hired ONE attorney in 2012, and at least a dozen left.  Those jobs - they are rare and HIGHLY sought after now.  There were a few hundred applicants for that one position.
 
2013-01-31 01:21:30 PM
My girlfriend was sworn in to the MA bar back in November, and hasn't been able to find a gig outside of temping doing legal doc review. She wants to work as a public defender, which you would think is always in need of more warm bodies with law degrees, but apparently not.

/Yes, I lose every argument
//Not because she's a lawyer, but because I'm the guy in the relationship, ergo, wrong
 
2013-01-31 01:21:58 PM
My dad made a deal with me:

I'll pay for college and any further education you desire, but if you want to go to law school, you're on your own.

Too many damn lawyers farking stuff up.


/currently engaged to a lawyer
//now I know what dad meant
 
2013-01-31 01:22:21 PM
No field of study is safe, so long as any company with no sense of integrity whatsoever will move its business to hire the cheapest labor force possible in any field.
 
2013-01-31 01:22:34 PM
Good
 
2013-01-31 01:22:50 PM

Rincewind53: Weaver95: nice to see law students in the same boat as the rest of us.  c'mon down to the protests and get your fair share of abuse!

Actually, I'm trained to go down to the protests to act as legal observers for the National Lawyer's Guild, to protect protesters from police abuses.



... and if you don't, they're going to blow a 50 amp fuse.
 
2013-01-31 01:23:19 PM
1000 lawyers on the bottom of the ocean?
 
2013-01-31 01:23:54 PM

Weaver95: RexTalionis: I did law because working as a programmer/IT technician seems like soul-crushing work.

Anyway, is anyone interested in hiring an IT guy who knows his way around the law?

shiat - i'm STILL looking for a job.  the IT field is pretty thin right now.


You're joking right?  My company is set to hire 100 IT workers of all types (programmers, DBAs, architects, infrastructure) this year, and we're turning away work we have such a high demand.  Our team alone could double in size and still not get all our work done.  I was about to get laid off last year (due to larger contractual issues between two companies), looked for a job for a week and got 2 offers, both paying 20%+ more than I was making the past two years.  I don't get where this "IT field is hurting" stuff is coming from.
 
2013-01-31 01:24:11 PM

I should be in the kitchen: Cyberluddite: Rincewind53: Not me, I'm pretty and special and will graduate with money just raining down on me like some sort of cash bukkake.

As a lawyer myself, I've tried to talk many youngsters out of going to law school and becoming lawyers (including in TFD some advice threads over the years) , with tales of horrible working conditions, long hours, shiatty pay, poor job prospects, and widespread career dissatisfaction among most of my colleagues.  It always falls on deaf ears, and your sarcastic comment above is not too far off from what they actually say and seem to believe.  Unless I happen to talk to them a few years later, when I typically hear the "You were right--I wish I'd listened then" sort of comments.

May I ask you, or any of the other law-types here, what you do like about being a lawyer? Just asking out of genuine curiosity. Does the profession just suck overall, or is it more a matter of matching your interests/skills to the right area of law, or of newbies having unreasonable expectations? I have a friend who passed the bar about a year ago and is working family law currently, and HATES it. His interest is business law; totally different animal!


I think it all depends on what you wanted to do, whether you're doing it, and where you work. Pretty much like any job. The only difference is that lawyers are almost always presented well in Hollywood and the media, etc..., so people's expectations are all wrong. And the money can be great if you get the  great jobs, so people presume that money = job satisfaction. Which it doesn't. I know lawyers who love their jobs, and lawyers who hate them, and I think it's pretty much in the same ratio as any career field.
 
2013-01-31 01:25:11 PM
Welp... bullet dodged.

/was pre-law
//now IT
///lulz have been had
 
2013-01-31 01:25:46 PM

pippi longstocking: Cause in most countries lawyers are pretty much at the level of accountants, architects, engineers, etc... not like you need much training to file paperwork.


It isn't much different in ours. Most lawyers don't end up with lavish salaries. I am pretty sure I read that 10 years after graduation lawyers have one of the highest level of job dissatisfaction of any career that requires a degree.
 
2013-01-31 01:26:00 PM
Am I the only one who read TFA?  My takeaway from it was that law school is getting easier to get into and they're going to make it chaeaper.

Now all I gotta do is lern to rite good.
 
2013-01-31 01:26:00 PM
I am a barrister so getting a kick etc...
 
2013-01-31 01:26:10 PM

Mugato: Law school. Memorize a bunch of court case precedents and terminally boring laws and learn to argue like an asshole. Doesn't impress me. farking Bush managed to get a law degree, ffs. Sure there was nepotism involved but he still made it to class.


Bush II flunked out of Law School, his brothers/sisters have law degrees.  I think your best bet is to specialize in one small area of law and become an expert in that I have a friend who makes a comfortable living  just writing wills and trust  he only works about 25 hours a week.
 
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