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(The New York Times)   Congratulations law students. You're now in the elite employment ranks of Future Starbucks Baristas, along with all those liberal arts masters degree holders   (nytimes.com) divider line 348
    More: Obvious, arts, master's degrees, University of Chicago Law School, law schools, rankings, upward mobility, class size, student debt  
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12593 clicks; posted to Main » on 31 Jan 2013 at 1:01 PM (2 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-01-31 11:00:07 AM  
Boy, ain't that the truth.
 
2013-01-31 11:09:36 AM  

RexTalionis: Boy, ain't that the truth.

 
2013-01-31 11:34:25 AM  
Not me, I'm pretty and special and will graduate with money just raining down on me like some sort of cash bukkake.
 
2013-01-31 11:36:35 AM  
nice to see law students in the same boat as the rest of us.  c'mon down to the protests and get your fair share of abuse!
 
2013-01-31 11:37:18 AM  
I know they won't give you your money back if you go to law school but don't get a job as a lawyer, but what about your soul? Do they at least return that?
 
2013-01-31 11:39:31 AM  

Weaver95: nice to see law students in the same boat as the rest of us.  c'mon down to the protests and get your fair share of abuse!


Actually, I'm trained to go down to the protests to act as legal observers for the National Lawyer's Guild, to protect protesters from police abuses.
 
2013-01-31 11:44:20 AM  
Law school. Memorize a bunch of court case precedents and terminally boring laws and learn to argue like an asshole. Doesn't impress me. farking Bush managed to get a law degree, ffs. Sure there was nepotism involved but he still made it to class.
 
2013-01-31 11:45:12 AM  

Weaver95: nice to see law students in the same boat as the rest of us.  c'mon down to the protests and get your fair share of abuse!


We share the same boat so they're taking on water too. Simply put .. less Americans can afford: Divorce, frivolous lawsuits against X-friends/family/neighbors, custody battles, etc. Corporations are also using less legal help or outsourcing aspects of it to foreign lands or private home-workers (My mom does court reporting from her house). More IT efficiency means less need for legal admins as well so it effects the entire "legal industry." My mom used to be a legal administrator.. Hard to find employment in the field.

Computers have also allowed us to rely less on real attorneys and more on internet available legal documents. I don't have to get my lease agreement drawn up by a lawyer as I can simply download one from the internet for free and it will have the same legal standing as one made by a lawyer. Even forming a corporation or LLC which used to require an attorney can now be done by an individual with the same end result: an incorporation. The first Corp I had cost $1500 to form. The last LLC I made a few years ago for rental properties cost me zero as I did it myself with publicly available legal documents which I then submitted to my state for legal corporation. It's the same exact documentation that cost me $1500 back in 96.

Now we compound these problems with the fact that seasoned lawyers are sticking around longer before they retire. Some attorneys are coming back to the industry because they realize they can't live off what they originally planned on. So now I have an option between a guy who's spent 40 years practicing and knows everyone in the district vs. a new guy who doesn't really know all that much. Who would you pick?
 
2013-01-31 11:45:25 AM  

Rincewind53: Weaver95: nice to see law students in the same boat as the rest of us.  c'mon down to the protests and get your fair share of abuse!

Actually, I'm trained to go down to the protests to act as legal observers for the National Lawyer's Guild, to protect protesters from police abuses.


i've met more than a few of your group at various Occupy gatherings.  I don't think the capital cops were too fond of y'all either but the ground rule explanations of what you can and can't do around cops during a protest helped keep things from getting ugly on either side.

I liked it when the cops tried to be all cool about eavsedropping and the lawyer guild rep was like 'c'mon down!  there's a seat here in front'.  i've never seen someone look so uncomfortable in body armor before....
 
2013-01-31 11:47:55 AM  
My sister hasn't even graduated law school yet and she already has a job with the local DAs office.
 
2013-01-31 11:49:07 AM  

Weaver95: Rincewind53: Weaver95: nice to see law students in the same boat as the rest of us.  c'mon down to the protests and get your fair share of abuse!

Actually, I'm trained to go down to the protests to act as legal observers for the National Lawyer's Guild, to protect protesters from police abuses.

i've met more than a few of your group at various Occupy gatherings.  I don't think the capital cops were too fond of y'all either but the ground rule explanations of what you can and can't do around cops during a protest helped keep things from getting ugly on either side.

I liked it when the cops tried to be all cool about eavsedropping and the lawyer guild rep was like 'c'mon down!  there's a seat here in front'.  i've never seen someone look so uncomfortable in body armor before....


I haven't actually had the opportunity to be a legal observer, sadly. Occupy DC's need for them basically fizzled out right after I got the training, and I wasn't available for the few protests after that where they've needed us. But next year when I'm less utterly destroyed with time (this semester I'm doing a clinic representing an asylum applicant who is in removal proceedings) I'm going to work more closely with NLG. Any organization that drove Joe McCarthy mad is one I can support.
 
2013-01-31 11:50:49 AM  

Mugato: Law school. Memorize a bunch of court case precedents and terminally boring laws and learn to argue like an asshole. Doesn't impress me.


I've heard of straw men, but straw schools?
 
2013-01-31 11:53:42 AM  

kronicfeld: Mugato: Law school. Memorize a bunch of court case precedents and terminally boring laws and learn to argue like an asshole. Doesn't impress me.

I've heard of straw men, but straw schools?


Yeah, it's like he saw The Paper Chase and thinks that's how it actually is.
 
2013-01-31 11:53:57 AM  

vernonFL: My sister hasn't even graduated law school yet and she already has a job with the local DAs office.


Are you sure she said "job" and not "file"?
 
2013-01-31 11:54:37 AM  

Rincewind53: kronicfeld: Mugato: Law school. Memorize a bunch of court case precedents and terminally boring laws and learn to argue like an asshole. Doesn't impress me.

I've heard of straw men, but straw schools?

Yeah, it's like he saw The Paper Chase and thinks that's how it actually is.


I have never seen the Paper Chase.
 
2013-01-31 11:58:44 AM  

RexTalionis: I have never seen the Paper Chase.


It's actually a decent little movie.
 
2013-01-31 12:05:44 PM  

vernonFL: My sister hasn't even graduated law school yet and she already has a job with the local DAs office.


My sister could kick your sisters ass.
 
2013-01-31 12:08:08 PM  
Why don't they just work in Intellectual Property where they can make money by stealing other people's ideas and patenting them?

Seems that you can only get rich doing this.
 
2013-01-31 12:09:47 PM  

Rincewind53: Not me, I'm pretty and special and will graduate with money just raining down on me like some sort of cash bukkake.


As a lawyer myself, I've tried to talk many youngsters out of going to law school and becoming lawyers (including in TFD some advice threads over the years) , with tales of horrible working conditions, long hours, shiatty pay, poor job prospects, and widespread career dissatisfaction among most of my colleagues.  It always falls on deaf ears, and your sarcastic comment above is not too far off from what they actually say and seem to believe.  Unless I happen to talk to them a few years later, when I typically hear the "You were right--I wish I'd listened then" sort of comments.
 
2013-01-31 12:13:42 PM  

vernonFL: My sister hasn't even graduated law school yet and she already has a job with the local DAs office.


I hope she's able to pay off her $100,000 in student loans quickly on that lavish $50K/year salary.

Certainly some people find good and satisfying jobs, and do it right away (hell, I did, for that matter).  But especially now, that's most definitely the exception.
 
2013-01-31 12:16:11 PM  

vernonFL: My sister hasn't even graduated law school yet and she already has a job with the local DAs office.


Is she a young, brash rainmaker who's going to use her natural spunky charm to step on some toes and put the system on trial?
 
2013-01-31 12:17:29 PM  

Cyberluddite: Certainly some people find good and satisfying jobs, and do it right away (hell, I did, for that matter).


Were you a young, brash rainmaker who used your natural spunky charm to step on some toes and put the system on trial?
 
2013-01-31 12:18:23 PM  

RexTalionis: I have never seen the Paper Chase.


Sadly, me neither. But it's on NetFlix now, so it's on my list of things to watch.

Cyberluddite: As a lawyer myself, I've tried to talk many youngsters out of going to law school and becoming lawyers (including in TFD some advice threads over the years) , with tales of horrible working conditions, long hours, shiatty pay, poor job prospects, and widespread career dissatisfaction among most of my colleagues.  It always falls on deaf ears, and your sarcastic comment above is not too far off from what they actually say and seem to believe.  Unless I happen to talk to them a few years later, when I typically hear the "You were right--I wish I'd listened then" sort of comments.


I'm one of those actual public interest types that legitimately does not care about making a lot of money, so I'm in a fairly good position re: employment. I mean, not that I  havea 2L summer job at the moment, but that's because government & nonprofits don't hire in the fall semester, generally.
 
2013-01-31 12:24:16 PM  

Cyberluddite: vernonFL: My sister hasn't even graduated law school yet and she already has a job with the local DAs office.

I hope she's able to pay off her $100,000 in student loans quickly on that lavish $50K/year salary.

Certainly some people find good and satisfying jobs, and do it right away (hell, I did, for that matter).  But especially now, that's most definitely the exception.


Depends on your school. Duke will pay off all of your loans if you work for 5 years as an ADA or a public defender. That's the one I know of for sure. I can't imagine it's the only one, or even rare.
 
2013-01-31 12:25:50 PM  
Your next lawyer:

i236.photobucket.com

My client would like to plead "Not Guilty" your honor.
 
2013-01-31 12:27:09 PM  
Dammit.. Clarence Thomas ate my image.

i236.photobucket.com
 
2013-01-31 12:28:19 PM  

sigdiamond2000: Is she a young, brash rainmaker who's going to use her natural spunky charm to step on some toes and put the system on trial?


LOL Yes actually. We joke about it all the time. She's heard every "legally blonde", "law and order", "I'll need you when I get a DWI"  "No, YOU'RE out of order!" joke.
 
2013-01-31 12:29:49 PM  

Eddie Adams from Torrance: Dammit.. Clarence Thomas ate my image.

[i236.photobucket.com image 187x340]


Looks like it didn't agree with him and he puked it back up.  Probably had some pubes on it.
 
2013-01-31 12:32:00 PM  

vernonFL: LOL Yes actually. We joke about it all the time. She's heard every "legally blonde", "law and order", "I'll need you when I get a DWI" "No, YOU'RE out of order!" joke.


Sounds like she can't handle the truth.
 
2013-01-31 12:33:58 PM  
 
2013-01-31 12:34:37 PM  
I did law because working as a programmer/IT technician seems like soul-crushing work.

Anyway, is anyone interested in hiring an IT guy who knows his way around the law?
 
2013-01-31 12:37:52 PM  

sigdiamond2000: vernonFL: My sister hasn't even graduated law school yet and she already has a job with the local DAs office.

Is she a young, brash rainmaker who's going to use her natural spunky charm to step on some toes and put the system on trial?


Single Female Lawyer
Havin' lots of sex
 
2013-01-31 12:40:41 PM  

sigdiamond2000: Cyberluddite: Certainly some people find good and satisfying jobs, and do it right away (hell, I did, for that matter).
Were you a young, brash rainmaker who used your natural spunky charm to step on some toes and put the system on trial?


It must have been that.  Or the fact that I graduated from law school at a time when the legal market was booming--which should give you an idea of how long ago that was.
 
2013-01-31 12:41:13 PM  

kronicfeld: sigdiamond2000: vernonFL: My sister hasn't even graduated law school yet and she already has a job with the local DAs office.

Is she a young, brash rainmaker who's going to use her natural spunky charm to step on some toes and put the system on trial?

Single Female Lawyer
Havin' lots of sex


Oh, the people I know in law school who fit that model... It's enough to make a guy wish he were single.
 
2013-01-31 12:42:22 PM  
Oh man, I just love these articles.

I kind of feel guilty every time I teach an LSAT prep class.
 
2013-01-31 12:43:53 PM  

kxs401: Oh man, I just love these articles.

I kind of feel guilty every time I teach an LSAT prep class.


You should stand up in front of your class and shout "You're all  MAD. Mad I tell you!"
 
2013-01-31 12:45:33 PM  

RexTalionis: I did law because working as a programmer/IT technician seems like soul-crushing work.

Anyway, is anyone interested in hiring an IT guy who knows his way around the law?


shiat - i'm STILL looking for a job.  the IT field is pretty thin right now.
 
2013-01-31 12:51:56 PM  

vernonFL: sigdiamond2000: Is she a young, brash rainmaker who's going to use her natural spunky charm to step on some toes and put the system on trial?

LOL Yes actually. We joke about it all the time. She's heard every "legally blonde", "law and order", "I'll need you when I get a DWI" "No, YOU'RE out of order!" joke.


I like to do the "dun-dun" noise from L & O whenever I'm in the presence of a lawyer. I feel it both breaks the ice and let's them know I can have an informed conversation about legal matters.

I do the same thing with cops, but with them I usually say something about how cool Tutuola looks in those big leather jackets he wears.
 
2013-01-31 12:53:32 PM  

Weaver95: RexTalionis: I did law because working as a programmer/IT technician seems like soul-crushing work.

Anyway, is anyone interested in hiring an IT guy who knows his way around the law?

shiat - i'm STILL looking for a job.  the IT field is pretty thin right now.


That sucks, dude. What is your location? Maybe a change of locale might help?
 
2013-01-31 12:54:47 PM  

Mugato: Law school. Memorize a bunch of court case precedents and terminally boring laws and learn to argue like an asshole. Doesn't impress me. farking Bush managed to get a law degree, ffs. Sure there was nepotism involved but he still made it to class.


If you're talking about Bush 43, no, he didn't have a law degree. Neither did Jeb, or  Bush 41.
 
2013-01-31 01:03:27 PM  
it's my money and i need it now
 
2013-01-31 01:04:21 PM  
Sucks for them, as it does for any new graduate looking for work.

That said though, the last thing we need is more freaking lawyers.  What we need are engineers and scientists.
 
2013-01-31 01:04:42 PM  
Law school grads have had a hard time getting jobs for decades. How do you think that they can charge $500 per hour if they let everybody in the club? Lawyers understand supply and demand, and how to restrict supply. They also pay big bribes campaign contributions to legislators to increase demand.
 
2013-01-31 01:04:43 PM  
Starbucks barristers?
 
2013-01-31 01:04:46 PM  
You mean stubbornly enrolling in a professional school for a career field that is completely saturated with qualified people, then doing nothing to separate yourself from the crowd means it's hard to get a job?  F*ck.  That's amazing.
 
2013-01-31 01:06:26 PM  
Gee.  Fewer lawyers.  Whatever are we gonna do?

28.media.tumblr.com
 
2013-01-31 01:06:58 PM  
They (degree holders) become either a coffee shop drone or a call center drone. If they are dumb enough (like some members of my family)  they become a insurance drone.

/has a bachelors in Communications (speech, public speaking)
//no regrets about the degree, but was led to believe that I would get a decent paying job
///call center drone, but actually like the company/job
 
2013-01-31 01:07:02 PM  

kwame: You mean stubbornly enrolling in a professional school for a career field that is completely saturated with qualified people, then doing nothing to separate yourself from the crowd means it's hard to get a job?  F*ck.  That's amazing.


Yeah, well, there's that, too.
 
2013-01-31 01:07:35 PM  
In New Jersey, there is one attorney for every 108 people.

Note that this is NOT the worst thing about New Jersey, which is pretty sad.
 
2013-01-31 01:07:42 PM  
My brother is about to graduate from law school, so I'm getting a kick, etc.
 
2013-01-31 01:08:12 PM  

kwame: You mean stubbornly enrolling in a professional school for a career field that is completely saturated with qualified people, then doing nothing to separate yourself from the crowd means it's hard to get a job?  F*ck.  That's amazing.


I think that's the thing. The people who are excelling are still getting jobs. The people who used to get jobs just by nature of having a degree are not. And the people who used to get jobs just by being  good, but not excelling, are not, which is the  real problem.
 
2013-01-31 01:08:19 PM  
Wouldn't declining enrollment indicate that those who graduate have better job prospects assuming demand stays the same or increases due to population increase?
 
2013-01-31 01:08:58 PM  

xanadian: Gee.  Fewer lawyers.  Whatever are we gonna do?

[28.media.tumblr.com image 500x281]


With less competition, it means the rest of us get more money.
 
2013-01-31 01:10:20 PM  

Cyberluddite: Rincewind53: Not me, I'm pretty and special and will graduate with money just raining down on me like some sort of cash bukkake.

As a lawyer myself, I've tried to talk many youngsters out of going to law school and becoming lawyers (including in TFD some advice threads over the years) , with tales of horrible working conditions, long hours, shiatty pay, poor job prospects, and widespread career dissatisfaction among most of my colleagues.  It always falls on deaf ears, and your sarcastic comment above is not too far off from what they actually say and seem to believe.  Unless I happen to talk to them a few years later, when I typically hear the "You were right--I wish I'd listened then" sort of comments.


Veterinarians are in the same place right now.
 
2013-01-31 01:11:30 PM  

Cyberluddite: As a lawyer myself, I've tried to talk many youngsters out of going to law school and becoming lawyers (including in TFD some advice threads over the years) , with tales of horrible working conditions, long hours, shiatty pay, poor job prospects, and widespread career dissatisfaction among most of my colleagues.  It always falls on deaf ears, and your sarcastic comment above is not too far off from what they actually say and seem to believe.  Unless I happen to talk to them a few years later, when I typically hear the "You were right--I wish I'd listened then" sort of comments.


Someone like yourself managed to talk me out of law school a few years ago, and I was very glad I took the advice.  Not at the time, mind you---you think that you're making a big mistake by passing up the opportunity.  But nowadays, I'm very pleased that I decided not to go.
 
2013-01-31 01:11:33 PM  

Cyberluddite: Rincewind53: Not me, I'm pretty and special and will graduate with money just raining down on me like some sort of cash bukkake.

As a lawyer myself, I've tried to talk many youngsters out of going to law school and becoming lawyers (including in TFD some advice threads over the years) , with tales of horrible working conditions, long hours, shiatty pay, poor job prospects, and widespread career dissatisfaction among most of my colleagues.  It always falls on deaf ears, and your sarcastic comment above is not too far off from what they actually say and seem to believe.  Unless I happen to talk to them a few years later, when I typically hear the "You were right--I wish I'd listened then" sort of comments.


I advise for pre-Law students and this man speaks the truth. I make them read a few articles on how bad prospects are. How going to a low-ranked law school is a waste of money unless they're going into the family practice. Hell, anything outside the top 15 or so is a waste.

I had the dean of the State law School here last year. He said the exact same thing you did. I loved him, because he didn't bullshiat the students.
 
2013-01-31 01:11:50 PM  

Rincewind53: kwame: You mean stubbornly enrolling in a professional school for a career field that is completely saturated with qualified people, then doing nothing to separate yourself from the crowd means it's hard to get a job?  F*ck.  That's amazing.

I think that's the thing. The people who are excelling are still getting jobs. The people who used to get jobs just by nature of having a degree are not. And the people who used to get jobs just by being  good, but not excelling, are not, which is the  real problem.


I think in law school (maybe like most fields?) it's not what you know, it's WHO you know. When I clerked, every single other clerk there save for one knew someone who got him or her the gig, and then of course the Judges helped us get good jobs afterwards
 
2013-01-31 01:12:13 PM  
i just became a lawyer, and I'm one of those jerks who has a job but is looking for a better one.  (primarily because my current job sucks.  the pay for a young lawyer is balls.  and, it can be.  i'd be replaced in a second for someone who would probably work for less and probably be not that much worse.  luckily, my boss likes my work.  i just need more of it.).

/ even thought about JAG.  could be interesting, and I could force everyone to call me doctor lieutenant esquire
 
2013-01-31 01:12:18 PM  
Have we finally hit peak lawsuit?
 
2013-01-31 01:13:08 PM  
This is relevant to the discussion:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nMvARy0lBLE

And hilarious, because it's true.
 
2013-01-31 01:13:28 PM  
This really isn't anything new.

Unlike the AMA or the AVMA and countless others; there isn't a strong political force to artificially limit the supply of lawyers.  The median wage is actually quite low when you consider the number of years it typically takes to become a lawyer.

That's median though.  Super-star lawyers are a different thing entirely.  It's also why it's a really big deal *where* you went to law school and how well you did.

It used to be that a piece of paper didn't determine your career.  It was the result of a lifetime of being awesome or sucky or somewhere in between.  Now that 'enough' people all have the same paper, we're pissing away a ton of money and lots of years to get back to a level playing field where the good people enjoy well paying jobs and the sucky ones struggle to find jobs.  It's just now everyone owes 100k and wasted four years of their life to get there.  Progress!
 
2013-01-31 01:14:37 PM  
Hell, I'm having a hard time finding an engineering job with a Master's.
 
2013-01-31 01:15:03 PM  

Koalaesq: Rincewind53: kwame: You mean stubbornly enrolling in a professional school for a career field that is completely saturated with qualified people, then doing nothing to separate yourself from the crowd means it's hard to get a job?  F*ck.  That's amazing.

I think that's the thing. The people who are excelling are still getting jobs. The people who used to get jobs just by nature of having a degree are not. And the people who used to get jobs just by being  good, but not excelling, are not, which is the  real problem.

I think in law school (maybe like most fields?) it's not what you know, it's WHO you know. When I clerked, every single other clerk there save for one knew someone who got him or her the gig, and then of course the Judges helped us get good jobs afterwards


Yep, that's definitely part of it. My dad dated a woman in college, and forty years later, she's now a federal judge, and they're still somewhat friends. 'm considering using that just to get my foot in the door and my resume looked at, which makes me feel like a shiatty human being, but I justify it to myself by saying "Everyone else is doing it."

And they are. A friend of a friend got a Circuit Court clerkship because he worked with someone who was friends with the judge.
 
2013-01-31 01:15:15 PM  

pute kisses like a man: i just became a lawyer, and I'm one of those jerks who has a job but is looking for a better one.  (primarily because my current job sucks.  the pay for a young lawyer is balls.  and, it can be.  i'd be replaced in a second for someone who would probably work for less and probably be not that much worse.  luckily, my boss likes my work.  i just need more of it.).

/ even thought about JAG.  could be interesting, and I could force everyone to call me doctor lieutenant esquire


Mazel tov on the degree. Yes, the pay is awful, but just suck up knowledge and experience and then go out on your own if you have to!
 
2013-01-31 01:15:36 PM  
Just go chase a few ambulances, you'll be fine. You have to fish where the fish are.
 
2013-01-31 01:15:42 PM  
This is not news. This was a problem for the class of 2009, even in top law schools. I graduted in 2011 from a top 25 law school and bounced around for a year after graduation before finding a stable job. Most of my friends did the same and some are looking for something better.

There are too many lawyers. We don't need 100s of lawyers for doc review. When doc review is necessary, there are companies that will hire lawyers on a cheap contract basis to do the work. With modern technology it takes about 1/4th of the lawyers than it did 30 years ago, but there are way more lawyers than there were back then. If you can't get into a HYSCCNMPV, then its a waste of money, even if you want to do public interest.

If you want to do public interest, you have to either have connections, go to a strong regional school, or go to one of the top ten. Even prosecutor jobs are hard to get these days... and forget about the ACLU. Why would they hire some NYLS grad when they can get a Michign grad for the same price.

And if you can't get into Yale, your chances of becoming a professor are so small that you would need an electron microscope to see it.
 
2013-01-31 01:16:02 PM  

Nabb1: RexTalionis: Boy, ain't that the truth.


Why, I'll sue you for calling me "boy".

[negro community frowns . . .jpg]

/not African American but hey! the law applies to everyone
//legally obligated to place this 2nd slashie.
 
2013-01-31 01:16:12 PM  
It seems the US has met its lawyer quota. Not soon enough, though
 
2013-01-31 01:16:34 PM  

Spartacus Outlaw: Cyberluddite: Rincewind53: Not me, I'm pretty and special and will graduate with money just raining down on me like some sort of cash bukkake.

As a lawyer myself, I've tried to talk many youngsters out of going to law school and becoming lawyers (including in TFD some advice threads over the years) , with tales of horrible working conditions, long hours, shiatty pay, poor job prospects, and widespread career dissatisfaction among most of my colleagues.  It always falls on deaf ears, and your sarcastic comment above is not too far off from what they actually say and seem to believe.  Unless I happen to talk to them a few years later, when I typically hear the "You were right--I wish I'd listened then" sort of comments.

Veterinarians are in the same place right now.


THIS TIME A MILLION....

Eight years of post-high school education in an incredibly competitive environment....to finish with one of the absolute worst median student debt to income ratio.
 
2013-01-31 01:16:43 PM  

Rincewind53: Koalaesq: Rincewind53: kwame: You mean stubbornly enrolling in a professional school for a career field that is completely saturated with qualified people, then doing nothing to separate yourself from the crowd means it's hard to get a job?  F*ck.  That's amazing.

I think that's the thing. The people who are excelling are still getting jobs. The people who used to get jobs just by nature of having a degree are not. And the people who used to get jobs just by being  good, but not excelling, are not, which is the  real problem.

I think in law school (maybe like most fields?) it's not what you know, it's WHO you know. When I clerked, every single other clerk there save for one knew someone who got him or her the gig, and then of course the Judges helped us get good jobs afterwards

Yep, that's definitely part of it. My dad dated a woman in college, and forty years later, she's now a federal judge, and they're still somewhat friends. 'm considering using that just to get my foot in the door and my resume looked at, which makes me feel like a shiatty human being, but I justify it to myself by saying "Everyone else is doing it."

And they are. A friend of a friend got a Circuit Court clerkship because he worked with someone who was friends with the judge.


I admit that I had an in that got me the clerkship, too. I felt crappy about it, but I worked my ass off and really tried hard and learned a lot, so at least I felt 'worthy' of that honor, know what I mean? Use your connections, just make the most of them.
 
2013-01-31 01:16:55 PM  
Anyone planning to enter law school now, or having entered only 2-3 years ago should know they are setting themselves up for a tough road ahead.  If they think there are lots of great jobs to go around for J.D.s, they are kidding themselves.  Smartest thing I figured I could do was go back and get a technical degree while working full time and not putting myself in debt.

/Our attorneys start at my starting salary
//And I don't have law school debt
 
2013-01-31 01:17:26 PM  

Rincewind53: Actually, I'm trained to go down to the protests to act as legal observers for the National Lawyer's Guild, to protect protesters from police abuses.


I applaud your effort
 
2013-01-31 01:17:32 PM  

Weaver95: RexTalionis: I did law because working as a programmer/IT technician seems like soul-crushing work.

Anyway, is anyone interested in hiring an IT guy who knows his way around the law?

shiat - i'm STILL looking for a job.  the IT field is pretty thin right now.


No it isn't you have said this in other threads and I show you that it isn't the case. It may be an issue for you or locally but overall IT unemployment is far lower than national unemployment.

We have open positions both here and in San Jose that we can't fill because we can't find a good match between our requirements and strong candidates.
 
2013-01-31 01:17:49 PM  

SN1987a goes boom: Hell, I'm having a hard time finding an engineering job with a Master's.


Mechanical engineering?  The dude got his degree in ME.  He does IT Security now....
 
2013-01-31 01:17:56 PM  

pute kisses like a man: i just became a lawyer, and I'm one of those jerks who has a job but is looking for a better one.  (primarily because my current job sucks.  the pay for a young lawyer is balls.  and, it can be.  i'd be replaced in a second for someone who would probably work for less and probably be not that much worse.  luckily, my boss likes my work.  i just need more of it.).

/ even thought about JAG.  could be interesting, and I could force everyone to call me doctor lieutenant esquire


JAG is like a 5% selection rate and they really only take people dedicated to the military. In 2008 they were way less selective, but now they can pick and choose.
 
2013-01-31 01:18:36 PM  
Note to young/potential lawyers out there: For the sake of your career, specialize in something early that you believe will exist long into the future. The problem is young lawyers are very fungible. You want that specialty to make yourself harder to replace and more desirable to hire.  Good options at the moment include IP, securities, tax.... things that will continue to be around for the foreseeable future.
 
2013-01-31 01:18:54 PM  

zeroman987: If you want to do public interest, you have to either have connections, go to a strong regional school, or go to one of the top ten. Even prosecutor jobs are hard to get these days... and forget about the ACLU. Why would they hire some NYLS grad when they can get a Michign grad for the same price.


I've found that if you want to be a PD, you need to intern for one your 1L summer AND your 2L summer AND be damn good at school. Hell, I'm keeping that option open even if I don't work for a PD this summer, by doing an externship with a PD in the fall of my 3L year.
 
2013-01-31 01:19:21 PM  

zeroman987: pute kisses like a man: i just became a lawyer, and I'm one of those jerks who has a job but is looking for a better one.  (primarily because my current job sucks.  the pay for a young lawyer is balls.  and, it can be.  i'd be replaced in a second for someone who would probably work for less and probably be not that much worse.  luckily, my boss likes my work.  i just need more of it.).

/ even thought about JAG.  could be interesting, and I could force everyone to call me doctor lieutenant esquire

JAG is like a 5% selection rate and they really only take people dedicated to the military. In 2008 they were way less selective, but now they can pick and choose.


A friend of mine is in law school now for JAG.  Apparently now, it's common for the Marines to choose someone who wants to go to law school, and help them pay for law school on the condition they do well, then they are guaranteed the job.
 
2013-01-31 01:19:49 PM  
Cause in most countries lawyers are pretty much at the level of accountants, architects, engineers, etc... not like you need much training to file paperwork.
 
2013-01-31 01:19:58 PM  

RexTalionis: Weaver95: RexTalionis: I did law because working as a programmer/IT technician seems like soul-crushing work.

Anyway, is anyone interested in hiring an IT guy who knows his way around the law?

shiat - i'm STILL looking for a job.  the IT field is pretty thin right now.

That sucks, dude. What is your location? Maybe a change of locale might help?


I was an IT guy, too. Worked for a large but now bankrupt telecom company. Everybody is getting laid off one by one around me, and I'm looking out the window and see the law school three blocks away. Walked over on my lunch hour and told the Admissions lady "I am TIRED of having companies sink out from under me, or be the first to go when senior management screws up and the bean counters have to axe people to try and do damage control for the balance sheet and investors." That was March 2005, took the LSAT in June, and got in the class starting that fall.

I got lucky and got offered a Federal job in October 2008 (and knew that the economy has been in a death spiral since 2001, having lived it) and hell yes I took it. Yeah, it was only 45k a year to start with, but my stars the stability and security! And after ten years, the Federal loans at least will be forgiven.

I'm basicly happy, and I know I'm lucky.

USAJOBS.GOV is your friend.
 
2013-01-31 01:20:00 PM  

Supes: Note to young/potential lawyers out there: For the sake of your career, specialize in something early that you believe will exist long into the future. The problem is young lawyers are very fungible. You want that specialty to make yourself harder to replace and more desirable to hire.  Good options at the moment include IP, securities, tax.... things that will continue to be around for the foreseeable future.


PATENTS.  If you have any sort of technical degree, there are always jobs for patent attorneys from what I have seen.
 
2013-01-31 01:20:04 PM  

Cyberluddite: Rincewind53: Not me, I'm pretty and special and will graduate with money just raining down on me like some sort of cash bukkake.

As a lawyer myself, I've tried to talk many youngsters out of going to law school and becoming lawyers (including in TFD some advice threads over the years) , with tales of horrible working conditions, long hours, shiatty pay, poor job prospects, and widespread career dissatisfaction among most of my colleagues.  It always falls on deaf ears, and your sarcastic comment above is not too far off from what they actually say and seem to believe.  Unless I happen to talk to them a few years later, when I typically hear the "You were right--I wish I'd listened then" sort of comments.


May I ask you, or any of the other law-types here, what you do like about being a lawyer? Just asking out of genuine curiosity. Does the profession just suck overall, or is it more a matter of matching your interests/skills to the right area of law, or of newbies having unreasonable expectations? I have a friend who passed the bar about a year ago and is working family law currently, and HATES it. His interest is business law; totally different animal!
 
2013-01-31 01:20:29 PM  
I predict a massive increase in the old "no, you only gave me a $10" scam at Starbucks.
 
2013-01-31 01:20:40 PM  

Koalaesq: Rincewind53: Koalaesq: Rincewind53: kwame: You mean stubbornly enrolling in a professional school for a career field that is completely saturated with qualified people, then doing nothing to separate yourself from the crowd means it's hard to get a job?  F*ck.  That's amazing.

I think that's the thing. The people who are excelling are still getting jobs. The people who used to get jobs just by nature of having a degree are not. And the people who used to get jobs just by being  good, but not excelling, are not, which is the  real problem.

I think in law school (maybe like most fields?) it's not what you know, it's WHO you know. When I clerked, every single other clerk there save for one knew someone who got him or her the gig, and then of course the Judges helped us get good jobs afterwards

Yep, that's definitely part of it. My dad dated a woman in college, and forty years later, she's now a federal judge, and they're still somewhat friends. 'm considering using that just to get my foot in the door and my resume looked at, which makes me feel like a shiatty human being, but I justify it to myself by saying "Everyone else is doing it."

And they are. A friend of a friend got a Circuit Court clerkship because he worked with someone who was friends with the judge.

I admit that I had an in that got me the clerkship, too. I felt crappy about it, but I worked my ass off and really tried hard and learned a lot, so at least I felt 'worthy' of that honor, know what I mean? Use your connections, just make the most of them.


Yep, that's what I'm thinking too. And I'll honestly have a resume that is actually pretty damn good (straight out brag, not humblebrag), but I know there are easily 100 people applying to the same clerkships with as good or better resumes, so without that in...
 
2013-01-31 01:20:43 PM  
hahaha, sorry but i just have to laugh. When i was in high school i was told by my guidance coulselors that going to school for music and the arts was a waste and you could only be successful if you were in business,law or a doctor. Now, i work in TV a recession proof job and make about 6 figures, so suck it! and my liberal arts degree cost nothing!
 
2013-01-31 01:20:45 PM  

zeroman987: This is not news. This was a problem for the class of 2009, even in top law schools. I graduted in 2011 from a top 25 law school and bounced around for a year after graduation before finding a stable job. Most of my friends did the same and some are looking for something better.


Sorry you got scammed. Only lawyers in the top 5, maybe 10 are finding jobs that require their skills as lawyers. Other schools are fudging graduate employment stats to continue to attract students.
 
2013-01-31 01:21:23 PM  

Goodluckfox: RexTalionis: Weaver95: RexTalionis: I did law because working as a programmer/IT technician seems like soul-crushing work.

Anyway, is anyone interested in hiring an IT guy who knows his way around the law?

shiat - i'm STILL looking for a job.  the IT field is pretty thin right now.

That sucks, dude. What is your location? Maybe a change of locale might help?

I was an IT guy, too. Worked for a large but now bankrupt telecom company. Everybody is getting laid off one by one around me, and I'm looking out the window and see the law school three blocks away. Walked over on my lunch hour and told the Admissions lady "I am TIRED of having companies sink out from under me, or be the first to go when senior management screws up and the bean counters have to axe people to try and do damage control for the balance sheet and investors." That was March 2005, took the LSAT in June, and got in the class starting that fall.

I got lucky and got offered a Federal job in October 2008 (and knew that the economy has been in a death spiral since 2001, having lived it) and hell yes I took it. Yeah, it was only 45k a year to start with, but my stars the stability and security! And after ten years, the Federal loans at least will be forgiven.

I'm basicly happy, and I know I'm lucky.

USAJOBS.GOV is your friend.


LOL.  We hired ONE attorney in 2012, and at least a dozen left.  Those jobs - they are rare and HIGHLY sought after now.  There were a few hundred applicants for that one position.
 
2013-01-31 01:21:30 PM  
My girlfriend was sworn in to the MA bar back in November, and hasn't been able to find a gig outside of temping doing legal doc review. She wants to work as a public defender, which you would think is always in need of more warm bodies with law degrees, but apparently not.

/Yes, I lose every argument
//Not because she's a lawyer, but because I'm the guy in the relationship, ergo, wrong
 
2013-01-31 01:21:58 PM  
My dad made a deal with me:

I'll pay for college and any further education you desire, but if you want to go to law school, you're on your own.

Too many damn lawyers farking stuff up.


/currently engaged to a lawyer
//now I know what dad meant
 
2013-01-31 01:22:21 PM  
No field of study is safe, so long as any company with no sense of integrity whatsoever will move its business to hire the cheapest labor force possible in any field.
 
2013-01-31 01:22:34 PM  
Good
 
2013-01-31 01:22:50 PM  

Rincewind53: Weaver95: nice to see law students in the same boat as the rest of us.  c'mon down to the protests and get your fair share of abuse!

Actually, I'm trained to go down to the protests to act as legal observers for the National Lawyer's Guild, to protect protesters from police abuses.



... and if you don't, they're going to blow a 50 amp fuse.
 
2013-01-31 01:23:19 PM  
1000 lawyers on the bottom of the ocean?
 
2013-01-31 01:23:54 PM  

Weaver95: RexTalionis: I did law because working as a programmer/IT technician seems like soul-crushing work.

Anyway, is anyone interested in hiring an IT guy who knows his way around the law?

shiat - i'm STILL looking for a job.  the IT field is pretty thin right now.


You're joking right?  My company is set to hire 100 IT workers of all types (programmers, DBAs, architects, infrastructure) this year, and we're turning away work we have such a high demand.  Our team alone could double in size and still not get all our work done.  I was about to get laid off last year (due to larger contractual issues between two companies), looked for a job for a week and got 2 offers, both paying 20%+ more than I was making the past two years.  I don't get where this "IT field is hurting" stuff is coming from.
 
2013-01-31 01:24:11 PM  

I should be in the kitchen: Cyberluddite: Rincewind53: Not me, I'm pretty and special and will graduate with money just raining down on me like some sort of cash bukkake.

As a lawyer myself, I've tried to talk many youngsters out of going to law school and becoming lawyers (including in TFD some advice threads over the years) , with tales of horrible working conditions, long hours, shiatty pay, poor job prospects, and widespread career dissatisfaction among most of my colleagues.  It always falls on deaf ears, and your sarcastic comment above is not too far off from what they actually say and seem to believe.  Unless I happen to talk to them a few years later, when I typically hear the "You were right--I wish I'd listened then" sort of comments.

May I ask you, or any of the other law-types here, what you do like about being a lawyer? Just asking out of genuine curiosity. Does the profession just suck overall, or is it more a matter of matching your interests/skills to the right area of law, or of newbies having unreasonable expectations? I have a friend who passed the bar about a year ago and is working family law currently, and HATES it. His interest is business law; totally different animal!


I think it all depends on what you wanted to do, whether you're doing it, and where you work. Pretty much like any job. The only difference is that lawyers are almost always presented well in Hollywood and the media, etc..., so people's expectations are all wrong. And the money can be great if you get the  great jobs, so people presume that money = job satisfaction. Which it doesn't. I know lawyers who love their jobs, and lawyers who hate them, and I think it's pretty much in the same ratio as any career field.
 
2013-01-31 01:25:11 PM  
Welp... bullet dodged.

/was pre-law
//now IT
///lulz have been had
 
2013-01-31 01:25:46 PM  

pippi longstocking: Cause in most countries lawyers are pretty much at the level of accountants, architects, engineers, etc... not like you need much training to file paperwork.


It isn't much different in ours. Most lawyers don't end up with lavish salaries. I am pretty sure I read that 10 years after graduation lawyers have one of the highest level of job dissatisfaction of any career that requires a degree.
 
2013-01-31 01:26:00 PM  
Am I the only one who read TFA?  My takeaway from it was that law school is getting easier to get into and they're going to make it chaeaper.

Now all I gotta do is lern to rite good.
 
2013-01-31 01:26:00 PM  
I am a barrister so getting a kick etc...
 
2013-01-31 01:26:10 PM  

Mugato: Law school. Memorize a bunch of court case precedents and terminally boring laws and learn to argue like an asshole. Doesn't impress me. farking Bush managed to get a law degree, ffs. Sure there was nepotism involved but he still made it to class.


Bush II flunked out of Law School, his brothers/sisters have law degrees.  I think your best bet is to specialize in one small area of law and become an expert in that I have a friend who makes a comfortable living  just writing wills and trust  he only works about 25 hours a week.
 
2013-01-31 01:27:01 PM  

I should be in the kitchen: May I ask you, or any of the other law-types here, what you do like about being a lawyer? Just asking out of genuine curiosity. Does the profession just suck overall, or is it more a matter of matching your interests/skills to the right area of law, or of newbies having unreasonable expectations? I have a friend who passed the bar about a year ago and is working family law currently, and HATES it. His interest is business law; totally different animal!


Family law is for a select few and I am not one of them.  Very few lawyers have the stomach for family law.  I suppose I like some of the things I deal with on an intellectual level, but mainly my life is measured increments of one-tenth of an hour, and frankly, I don't know too many lawyers in my generation or younger who truly like what they do and I don't think I know any who want any of their own kids to follow their footsteps into the profession.  I know I don't want my kids to be lawyers.  If they have to emulate one of their parents, then I hope it's their mother and not me.
 
2013-01-31 01:27:07 PM  

Rincewind53: Actually, I'm trained to go down to the protests to act as legal observers for the National Lawyer's Guild, to protect protesters from police abuses.


This is because you are awesome, but I already knew this.

/Do you take the luggage with you, for protection?
 
2013-01-31 01:27:35 PM  

Weaver95: RexTalionis: I did law because working as a programmer/IT technician seems like soul-crushing work.

Anyway, is anyone interested in hiring an IT guy who knows his way around the law?

shiat - i'm STILL looking for a job.  the IT field is pretty thin right now.


What? Dude you were looking like a year ago. I think I might have even emailed you about it.

All the vendors I talk to (Apex, Tek Systems, Infosys, Randstad, etc) say tech unemployment is way low right now.
 
2013-01-31 01:27:43 PM  

Frozboz: Weaver95: RexTalionis: I did law because working as a programmer/IT technician seems like soul-crushing work.

Anyway, is anyone interested in hiring an IT guy who knows his way around the law?

shiat - i'm STILL looking for a job.  the IT field is pretty thin right now.

You're joking right?  My company is set to hire 100 IT workers of all types (programmers, DBAs, architects, infrastructure) this year, and we're turning away work we have such a high demand.  Our team alone could double in size and still not get all our work done.  I was about to get laid off last year (due to larger contractual issues between two companies), looked for a job for a week and got 2 offers, both paying 20%+ more than I was making the past two years.  I don't get where this "IT field is hurting" stuff is coming from.


I think Weaver is a nice guy and I don't know anything about his skills but there are only two reasons someone in IT is unemployed right now:

1) location - some places just suck for IT, Spokane, WA for example

2) bad at it
 
2013-01-31 01:27:49 PM  

Felgraf: Rincewind53: Actually, I'm trained to go down to the protests to act as legal observers for the National Lawyer's Guild, to protect protesters from police abuses.

This is because you are awesome, but I already knew this.

/Do you take the luggage with you, for protection?


I've never had a chance to use my training. It's sad.
 
2013-01-31 01:27:49 PM  

Rincewind53: Not me, I'm pretty and special and will graduate with money just raining down on me like some sort of cash bukkake.


Oh god, I see this all the time.  I work in a corporate law firm and we have young folks coming through all the time who somehow leave here to go to law school - even having seen how bad things are from the inside.  Apparently they're all snowflakes who are going to somehow beat the odds with their degrees from whatever law school would take them (not a one is going to a top tier school).  It's like watching people commit (financial) suicide left and right.
 
2013-01-31 01:28:13 PM  
BUT BUT BUT  Mommy told me I should cuz I like to argue.  And it looks so cool in all those tv shows and movies....
 
2013-01-31 01:28:35 PM  

Rincewind53: Not me, I'm pretty and special and will graduate with money just raining down on me like some sort of cash bukkake.


I know you're being facetious, but you're not far wrong.  If you're an attractve female and with decent grades and have a "bubbly" personality, you'll do fine. Which only means that law careers are the same as every other career.  Minorities will do well even without good grades because the law firms are trying to "diversify" i.e. not look like a good ole boys club.
 
2013-01-31 01:28:41 PM  
I went to law school in the early 90s, but one of the primary things I learned in those 3 years was that I didn't really want to be a lawyer.  After college I worked in contract management for a large construction firm, and now 20 years later I own my own construction company.  My parents still occasionally make reference to all the time and money I "wasted" on law school, but in actuality I can't think of a better educational background for my line of work. It's always nice understanding the contract better than everyone else at the table.
 
2013-01-31 01:29:07 PM  
getting a kick... I worked back office support for a large DC firm for many years, that was all it took to make me decide for an MBA instead of a JD.  If you look at the hours that associates put in (at the big firms) and their salaries, I make the same but don't have to bill 2500 hours a year.
/bonus, MBA hate is only surpassed by lawyer hate.
 
2013-01-31 01:30:18 PM  

Cyberluddite: vernonFL: My sister hasn't even graduated law school yet and she already has a job with the local DAs office.

I hope she's able to pay off her $100,000 in student loans quickly on that lavish $50K/year salary.

Certainly some people find good and satisfying jobs, and do it right away (hell, I did, for that matter).  But especially now, that's most definitely the exception.


Yeah, a friend graduated from a top 10 law school a few years ago, had to intern for a year or two before getting a job

/I was her date for a barrister's ball one year. Damn good party
//DAMN good party
 
2013-01-31 01:30:19 PM  

kxs401: Oh man, I just love these articles.

I kind of feel guilty every time I teach an LSAT prep class.


I feel the same way every time I teach a law school class...

(For what it's worth, I try to teach practical stuff that they'll use, but...)
 
2013-01-31 01:30:22 PM  
T14 or don't go.

Law students aren't doing badly. Law students at bad law schools are doing badly.

Go to Harvard, Yale, Stanford, NYU, Chicago, Columbia, Michigan, Virginia, Penn, Cornell, Georgetown, Berkeley, or Duke, or Northwestern. Fine, maybe Texas ... maybe UCLA. But that's it!

When usually reliable top-30 schools aren't placing graduates, that's bad. When places like Illinois are cooking the books on their numbers, that's bad. When you're a 3.1/158 and someone is still offering you admission, that is BAD.

Don't go to a school that is just a law school. Don't go somewhere where the undergrads commute from their parents' homes. And don't go anywhere that has "State" in its name.
 
2013-01-31 01:31:12 PM  

sigdiamond2000: vernonFL: My sister hasn't even graduated law school yet and she already has a job with the local DAs office.

Is she a young, brash rainmaker who's going to use her natural spunky charm to step on some toes and put the system on trial?


No, she's semi-good looking and has enormous tits.
 
2013-01-31 01:31:17 PM  

PainInTheASP: vernonFL: My sister hasn't even graduated law school yet and she already has a job with the local DAs office.

Are you sure she said "job" and not "file"?


You forgot coffee maker and Donut runner

/kidding

/or am I O_o
 
2013-01-31 01:32:24 PM  

fawlty: Rincewind53: Not me, I'm pretty and special and will graduate with money just raining down on me like some sort of cash bukkake.

I know you're being facetious, but you're not far wrong.  If you're an attractve female and with decent grades and have a "bubbly" personality, you'll do fine. Which only means that law careers are the same as every other career.  Minorities will do well even without good grades because the law firms are trying to "diversify" i.e. not look like a good ole boys club.


Yes, that's what women and minorities always have it so easy and are equity partners in all the big law firms.

OH WAIT.
 
2013-01-31 01:32:26 PM  

InfrasonicTom: BUT BUT BUT  Mommy told me I should cuz I like to argue.  And it looks so cool in all those tv shows and movies....


Actually... that was the reason my mom proposed as to why I should be a lawyer.
 
2013-01-31 01:32:48 PM  

Chach: Go to Harvard, Yale, Stanford, NYU, Chicago, Columbia, Michigan, Virginia, Penn, Cornell, Georgetown, Berkeley, or Duke, or Northwestern. Fine, maybe Texas ... maybe UCLA. But that's it!


I love when people talk out their ass.
 
2013-01-31 01:33:10 PM  
"Can you imagine a world without lawyers?"

24.media.tumblr.com
 
2013-01-31 01:33:15 PM  

GRCooper: Cyberluddite: vernonFL: My sister hasn't even graduated law school yet and she already has a job with the local DAs office.

I hope she's able to pay off her $100,000 in student loans quickly on that lavish $50K/year salary.

Certainly some people find good and satisfying jobs, and do it right away (hell, I did, for that matter).  But especially now, that's most definitely the exception.

Yeah, a friend graduated from a top 10 law school a few years ago, had to intern for a year or two before getting a job

/I was her date for a barrister's ball one year. Damn good party
//DAMN good party


Some balls are held for barristers and some for fancy dress, but when they're held for charity they're the balls that I like best.
 
2013-01-31 01:33:30 PM  

Chach: When you're a 3.1/158 and someone is still offering you admission, that is BAD


Unless of course you're a 3.1/158.
 
2013-01-31 01:33:51 PM  

jst3p: GRCooper: Cyberluddite: vernonFL: My sister hasn't even graduated law school yet and she already has a job with the local DAs office.

I hope she's able to pay off her $100,000 in student loans quickly on that lavish $50K/year salary.

Certainly some people find good and satisfying jobs, and do it right away (hell, I did, for that matter).  But especially now, that's most definitely the exception.

Yeah, a friend graduated from a top 10 law school a few years ago, had to intern for a year or two before getting a job

/I was her date for a barrister's ball one year. Damn good party
//DAMN good party

Some balls are held for barristers and some for fancy dress, but when they're held for charity pleasure they're the balls that I like best.


damnitsomuch
 
2013-01-31 01:34:23 PM  

fawlty: Rincewind53: Not me, I'm pretty and special and will graduate with money just raining down on me like some sort of cash bukkake.

I know you're being facetious, but you're not far wrong.  If you're an attractve female and with decent grades and have a "bubbly" personality, you'll do fine. Which only means that law careers are the same as every other career.  Minorities will do well even without good grades because the law firms are trying to "diversify" i.e. not look like a good ole boys club.


Ha ha ha, no.
 
2013-01-31 01:34:51 PM  

AncientLurker: getting a kick... I worked back office support for a large DC firm for many years, that was all it took to make me decide for an MBA instead of a JD.  If you look at the hours that associates put in (at the big firms) and their salaries, I make the same but don't have to bill 2500 hours a year.
/bonus, MBA hate is only surpassed by lawyer hate.


Working in a law office has made it obvious to me that I don't want to go to law school.  I am worried I am stagnating and will be stuck here while I am trying to get my other degree and switch into an actual career, but at least I don't have $150,000-$200,000 in useless debt.
 
2013-01-31 01:35:19 PM  
It's even hard to get into the military's JAG corps these days, and that was always a final refuge for young or crappy lawyers.  They went from two officer selection boards a year to one, and quite a few of the military lawyers are actually fairly competent.  One of the soldiers that works for my wife enlisted after he got turned down.  Had his law degree and everything, and was trying to go JAG when he couldn't find a job anywhere else.  They were full up, and he wound up having to enlist to wait for a slot.  Here's a guy with a J.D. taking orders from people with B.A.s and high school diplomas.
 
2013-01-31 01:35:29 PM  

Rincewind53: kronicfeld: Mugato: Law school. Memorize a bunch of court case precedents and terminally boring laws and learn to argue like an asshole. Doesn't impress me.

I've heard of straw men, but straw schools?

Yeah, it's like he saw The Paper Chase and thinks that's how it actually is.


www.digital-polyphony.com

Hey it's the guy from Paper Chase!
 
2013-01-31 01:35:49 PM  
I graduated in 2009 and was one of the lucky ones.  The firm I was interning with offered me an associate position when I passed the bar.  There are a lot of my classmates out of work though, who have gone back for their MBA or other degrees to defer the loans...while racking up more debt.
 
2013-01-31 01:35:53 PM  

Koalaesq: Yes, that's what women and minorities always have it so easy and are equity partners in all the big law firms.


Don't be foolish.  I did not say "historically."  I meant NOW and you know it.  The problem you mention is WHY the firms are responding the way they are.  And no, they aren't just handing out partnerships to new grads willy nilly.  You have to put in time for that.  But the odds of getting that first good job and paycheck are better if you meet the criteria I mentioned above.
 
2013-01-31 01:36:22 PM  

PrivateCaboose: Working in a law office has made it obvious to me that I don't want to go to law school. I am worried I am stagnating and will be stuck here while I am trying to get my other degree and switch into an actual career, but at least I don't have $150,000-$200,000 in useless debt.


On the plus side, lawyer parties are hilarious because practically everyone is an alcoholic.
 
2013-01-31 01:36:55 PM  

devildog123: It's even hard to get into the military's JAG corps these days, and that was always a final refuge for young or crappy lawyers.  They went from two officer selection boards a year to one, and quite a few of the military lawyers are actually fairly competent.  One of the soldiers that works for my wife enlisted after he got turned down.  Had his law degree and everything, and was trying to go JAG when he couldn't find a job anywhere else.  They were full up, and he wound up having to enlist to wait for a slot.  Here's a guy with a J.D. taking orders from people with B.A.s and high school diplomas.


Enlisted with a JD???  Why the hell not take a different kind of commission?  That really doesn't add up.
 
2013-01-31 01:38:18 PM  

RexTalionis: PrivateCaboose: Working in a law office has made it obvious to me that I don't want to go to law school. I am worried I am stagnating and will be stuck here while I am trying to get my other degree and switch into an actual career, but at least I don't have $150,000-$200,000 in useless debt.

On the plus side, lawyer parties are hilarious because practically everyone is an alcoholic.


FACT.  When I left happy hour last night at 7, people were drinking pint glasses of gin and tonic.
 
2013-01-31 01:38:34 PM  
I should be in the kitchen:
May I ask you, or any of the other law-types here, what you do like about being a lawyer? Just asking out of genuine curiosity. Does the profession just suck overall, or is it more a matter of matching your interests/skills to the right area of law, or of newbies having unreasonable expectations? I have a friend who passed the bar about a year ago and is working family law currently, and HATES it. His interest is business law; totally different animal!

I'd rather defend cannibal serial killers than practice family law.

I'd say a good 25% of my class (2008, very good Canadian school) are un/underemployed or have left the profession.
 
2013-01-31 01:38:49 PM  

RexTalionis: PrivateCaboose: Working in a law office has made it obvious to me that I don't want to go to law school. I am worried I am stagnating and will be stuck here while I am trying to get my other degree and switch into an actual career, but at least I don't have $150,000-$200,000 in useless debt.

On the plus side, lawyer parties are hilarious because practically everyone is an alcoholic.


Sounds like IT parties!
 
2013-01-31 01:38:54 PM  

PrivateCaboose: FACT. When I left happy hour last night at 7, people were drinking pint glasses of gin and tonic.


Aren't they supposed to be in pint glasses?
 
2013-01-31 01:39:12 PM  

jst3p: Frozboz: Weaver95: RexTalionis: I did law because working as a programmer/IT technician seems like soul-crushing work.

Anyway, is anyone interested in hiring an IT guy who knows his way around the law?

shiat - i'm STILL looking for a job.  the IT field is pretty thin right now.

You're joking right?  My company is set to hire 100 IT workers of all types (programmers, DBAs, architects, infrastructure) this year, and we're turning away work we have such a high demand.  Our team alone could double in size and still not get all our work done.  I was about to get laid off last year (due to larger contractual issues between two companies), looked for a job for a week and got 2 offers, both paying 20%+ more than I was making the past two years.  I don't get where this "IT field is hurting" stuff is coming from.

I think Weaver is a nice guy and I don't know anything about his skills but there are only two reasons someone in IT is unemployed right now:

1) location - some places just suck for IT, Spokane, WA for example

2) bad at it


I responded before I saw yours and frozboz's posts, but we're all pretty much in synch. If you have experience in IT, contact one of the hundreds of body shops and they will have you working in a matter of days at a reasonable rate. Most are able to find you work locally.

Of course, if you suck you'll be out on your ear within the week but that's easy to avoid by not sucking.
 
2013-01-31 01:40:51 PM  

RexTalionis: PrivateCaboose: FACT. When I left happy hour last night at 7, people were drinking pint glasses of gin and tonic.

Aren't they supposed to be in pint glasses?


It was basically a pint glass of gin with a splash of tonic.  VOM.
 
2013-01-31 01:41:13 PM  

fawlty: Koalaesq: Yes, that's what women and minorities always have it so easy and are equity partners in all the big law firms.

Don't be foolish.  I did not say "historically."  I meant NOW and you know it.  The problem you mention is WHY the firms are responding the way they are.  And no, they aren't just handing out partnerships to new grads willy nilly.  You have to put in time for that.  But the odds of getting that first good job and paycheck are better if you meet the criteria I mentioned above.


No, I do not know it, I categorically dispute it. There might be some idiot partner out there who's floored by a big pair of tits, or some huge firm that'll hire a minority to look good, but to say that it increases the odds for women and minorities to any degree is an absolute fallacy. Women and minorities are still shunted to the side, by and large, and law is STILL a good ol' boys club. Maybe you don't see it, but I do.
 
2013-01-31 01:41:36 PM  

Marine1: InfrasonicTom: BUT BUT BUT  Mommy told me I should cuz I like to argue.  And it looks so cool in all those tv shows and movies....

Actually... that was the reason my mom proposed as to why I should be a lawyer.


Mine had the same advice.  Fortunately, I discovered the Internet and realized that you can argue all you want for free, with no credentials, leaving whenever you want, and you can still sleep at night.
 
2013-01-31 01:41:58 PM  

kwame: Chach: Go to Harvard, Yale, Stanford, NYU, Chicago, Columbia, Michigan, Virginia, Penn, Cornell, Georgetown, Berkeley, or Duke, or Northwestern. Fine, maybe Texas ... maybe UCLA. But that's it!

I love when people talk out their ass.


You're right, I probably should have stopped after Penn.
 
2013-01-31 01:42:59 PM  

doyner: Chach: When you're a 3.1/158 and someone is still offering you admission, that is BAD

Unless of course you're a 3.1/158.


They're not doing you a favor when you wind up jobless and a quarter mill in debt three years later.
 
2013-01-31 01:43:07 PM  

doyner: devildog123: It's even hard to get into the military's JAG corps these days, and that was always a final refuge for young or crappy lawyers.  They went from two officer selection boards a year to one, and quite a few of the military lawyers are actually fairly competent.  One of the soldiers that works for my wife enlisted after he got turned down.  Had his law degree and everything, and was trying to go JAG when he couldn't find a job anywhere else.  They were full up, and he wound up having to enlist to wait for a slot.  Here's a guy with a J.D. taking orders from people with B.A.s and high school diplomas.

Enlisted with a JD???  Why the hell not take a different kind of commission?  That really doesn't add up.


He didn't take another commission because it isn't quite as easy as it sounds, especially these days.  The military is trying to downsize, so, if you just went to college, no ROTC, no Green to Gold, you most likely aren't going to be able to show up and get a commission.  It's easier and more likely to get sent to OCS by enlisting first.  But even that's getting harder.  My wife's assistant is a brand new prior enlisted 2nd Lt. fresh from OCS and OBC.  His OCS class had 150 enlisted students all with their degrees, but only needed 85 to get their commissions.  You could make it all the way through to graduation, and if they had too many people left, you would be sent back to your old unit as an enlisted to try again later.  This is not 2008-2009, when they were offering officers cash incentives to stay in, they have all the bodies they need and then some.
 
2013-01-31 01:43:24 PM  

RexTalionis: PrivateCaboose: Working in a law office has made it obvious to me that I don't want to go to law school. I am worried I am stagnating and will be stuck here while I am trying to get my other degree and switch into an actual career, but at least I don't have $150,000-$200,000 in useless debt.

On the plus side, lawyer parties are hilarious because practically everyone is an alcoholic.


A lawyer party with family law attorneys becomes a game of "Whose client is most likely to appear on Maury". Some of the best stories out there. Like the 5 witness, 3 day trial over who got custody of the dog.

/sometimes I love the law.
 
2013-01-31 01:43:58 PM  

markie_farkie: whistleridge: ADA

[img1.fark.net image 54x11]   There's an ADA job opening in Texas now.


Uh...I think I'll wait a few days.
 
2013-01-31 01:44:49 PM  

doyner: Chach: When you're a 3.1/158 and someone is still offering you admission, that is BAD

Unless of course you're a 3.1/158.


No, it's especially bad for the 3.1/158. As others have said, most people shouldn't go to law school and ESPECIALLY shouldn't go to a school outside the top 10. A school that would take a 3.1/158 will cheerfully take $45k a year from their students is going to have a terrible graduate unemployment rate, and probably crappy graduation and bar passage rates as well. A student with those stats is almost certainly better off not going to law school.
 
2013-01-31 01:45:02 PM  
The country needs to go back to apprenticeships like electricians, machinist, masons, carpenters, auto mechanics and such.
You probably won't eat steak every night, but you wouldn't starve either.
 
2013-01-31 01:46:27 PM  

RexTalionis: PrivateCaboose: Working in a law office has made it obvious to me that I don't want to go to law school. I am worried I am stagnating and will be stuck here while I am trying to get my other degree and switch into an actual career, but at least I don't have $150,000-$200,000 in useless debt.

On the plus side, lawyer parties are hilarious because practically everyone is an alcoholic.


The only actually useful thing I learned in law school is how to be a high-functioning drunk.
 
2013-01-31 01:46:59 PM  

borg: Mugato: Law school. Memorize a bunch of court case precedents and terminally boring laws and learn to argue like an asshole. Doesn't impress me. farking Bush managed to get a law degree, ffs. Sure there was nepotism involved but he still made it to class.

Bush II flunked out of Law School, his brothers/sisters have law degrees.  I think your best bet is to specialize in one small area of law and become an expert in that I have a friend who makes a comfortable living  just writing wills and trust  he only works about 25 hours a week.


Bush applied but didn't get into UT Law.

Mugato: Law school. Memorize a bunch of court case precedents and terminally boring laws and learn to argue like an asshole. Doesn't impress me. farking Bush managed to get a law degree, ffs. Sure there was nepotism involved but he still made it to class.


W didn't have a law degree. He got an MBA.
 
2013-01-31 01:47:41 PM  
 
2013-01-31 01:47:51 PM  

Mugato: Law farking Bush managed to get a law degree, ffs. Sure there was nepotism involved but he still made it to class.


No, he didn't.

George H. W. Bush only went to Yale for undergrad

George W. Bush went to Yale for undergrad and then to Harvard for Business
 
2013-01-31 01:47:59 PM  
The upside is you get to say "I'm in law school"
/panty dropper
/whores
 
2013-01-31 01:48:02 PM  

redmid17: Mugato: Law school. Memorize a bunch of court case precedents and terminally boring laws and learn to argue like an asshole. Doesn't impress me. farking Bush managed to get a law degree, ffs. Sure there was nepotism involved but he still made it to class.

W didn't have a law degree. He got an MBA.


Clinton got a BJ from a BBW.
 
2013-01-31 01:48:15 PM  

rumpelstiltskin: I know they won't give you your money back if you go to law school but don't get a job as a lawyer, but what about your soul? Do they at least return that?


You can sue them for both. At least they teach you how to do that.
 
2013-01-31 01:48:18 PM  

angrycrank: doyner: Chach: When you're a 3.1/158 and someone is still offering you admission, that is BAD

Unless of course you're a 3.1/158.

No, it's especially bad for the 3.1/158. As others have said, most people shouldn't go to law school and ESPECIALLY shouldn't go to a school outside the top 10. A school that would take a 3.1/158 will cheerfully take $45k a year from their students is going to have a terrible graduate unemployment rate, and probably crappy graduation and bar passage rates as well. A student with those stats is almost certainly better off not going to law school.


Yep. As long as Uncle Sam will loan you every dollar you ask for and the schools aren't on the hook when you wind up jobless, squarely screwing YOU, the best thing you can get is a rejection letter.
 
2013-01-31 01:50:05 PM  
Negotiated my own Divorce.

Ex took it to her lawyer and the lawyer told that my proposal was clean, fair, and that she (the ex) would spend more in legal fees than she would gain by challenging the settlement offer. I even included copies of the IRS Dependent Release Form to be signed as a condition of the settlement so no dicking around over 'night stayed' between the houses.

Magistrate complimented us (really me) on such a clean process, and that one of us must have a lawyer in the family. Yea, Uncle Internet.
 
2013-01-31 01:52:27 PM  
There's always porn, and who knows, doing porn, you might end up giving classes in primary school:

d24w6bsrhbeh9d.cloudfront.net
 
2013-01-31 01:52:43 PM  

EyeballKid: No field of study is safe, so long as any company with no sense of integrity whatsoever will move its business to hire the cheapest labor force possible in any field.


Just wondering.  What does hiring the cheapest labor force have to do with integrity?  I'd think finding the cheapest way to make a product or provide a service would show integrity to a company's shareholders - which in the end, are the only people a company is obligated to.
 
2013-01-31 01:53:02 PM  

Weaver95: nice to see law students in the same boat as the rest of us.  c'mon down to the protests and get your fair share of abuse!


There is legal crisis already upon this country that nbody really recognizes because they all hate lawyers so much.  When My Crim Law Professor graduated from Law School, he had about $7,000 in debt and took a decent paying job as a Public Defender because that's where his passion lay, in public service not profit.  I would have followed that same path when I graduated (he offered me a ltter of recommendation to any local PD's office, and his letters were as good as an automatic job offer because of his reputation).  The only problem was, I had 100K in Law School (only-undergrad was from savings) debt and the PD's office only paid about 40K/year  -a salary that would have made it impossible to support my wife and kid and pay my student loans and live in anything  but in a crackhouse  anywhere in the greater Chicago Area.

The same fact pattern  is making it nearly impossible for non-profits and advocacy groups to get any legal talent at all these days, and since they are often the folks on the front lines of vindicating your civil rights, keeping you out of jail, and generally standing up to "the Man", this is a very bad thing for everyone, whether they realize it or not.
 
2013-01-31 01:53:06 PM  

brap: vernonFL: My sister hasn't even graduated law school yet and she already has a job with the local DAs office.

My sister could kick your sisters ass.


His sister can sue your sister's ass though.
 
2013-01-31 01:54:21 PM  

Rincewind53: Weaver95: nice to see law students in the same boat as the rest of us.  c'mon down to the protests and get your fair share of abuse!

Actually, I'm trained to go down to the protests to act as legal observers for the National Lawyer's Guild, to protect protesters from police abuses.


I'm really sorry, but when I read your post here's what I read "Actually, I'm trained to go down on the protesters..."  You can tell where my mind is today...
 
2013-01-31 01:54:31 PM  
 
2013-01-31 01:54:48 PM  

Klivian: My girlfriend was sworn in to the MA bar back in November, and hasn't been able to find a gig outside of temping doing legal doc review. She wants to work as a public defender, which you would think is always in need of more warm bodies with law degrees, but apparently not.

/Yes, I lose every argument
//Not because she's a lawyer, but because I'm the guy in the relationship, ergo, wrong


That was my assumption. I figured trial or corporate attorneys would be in small demand, but that the overworked positions - like public defending - would need more bodies.
 
2013-01-31 01:56:42 PM  

ISubmittedThisYesterdayWithAMuchFunnierHeadline: I went to law school in the early 90s, but one of the primary things I learned in those 3 years was that I didn't really want to be a lawyer.  After college I worked in contract management for a large construction firm, and now 20 years later I own my own construction company.  My parents still occasionally make reference to all the time and money I "wasted" on law school, but in actuality I can't think of a better educational background for my line of work. It's always nice understanding the contract better than everyone else at the table.


Yeah, about half of the VPs in some of the companies I've worked at (EA, AOL being two of the biggies) had law degrees. The others were MBAs.

Going to law school doesn't mean being a lawyer.
 
2013-01-31 01:56:52 PM  
I guess making people jump through hoops isn't a good way to find quality candidates after all.

When I last checked in with law students, it was a race to see how many hours a day could be spent studying.

That cut out anyone with a life, an imagination, or a sense of proportion...
 
2013-01-31 01:58:13 PM  

Chach: doyner: Chach: When you're a 3.1/158 and someone is still offering you admission, that is BAD

Unless of course you're a 3.1/158.

They're not doing you a favor when you wind up jobless and a quarter mill in debt three years later.


Well shiat!  Why have law school at all?  Have a 4.0 in basket weaving and get 170 on the LSAT and you're ready to take the bar!
 
2013-01-31 01:59:10 PM  

sigdiamond2000: Cyberluddite: Certainly some people find good and satisfying jobs, and do it right away (hell, I did, for that matter).

Were you a young, brash rainmaker who used your natural spunky charm to step on some toes and put the system on trial?


Is she a single, pretty young white woman who can't find love because of her hectic schedule and cold indifference to people who show her affection, until one confident mail clerk with a dream swept her off of her feet and showed her how to love again?
 
2013-01-31 01:59:42 PM  

Nabb1: This is relevant to the discussion:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nMvARy0lBLE

And hilarious, because it's true.


" Have you ever agreed to a mediation, and then discovered the other side only requested it
  so a process server could trap your client in the bathroom of a Wendy's? "

Lol
 
2013-01-31 02:00:21 PM  

devildog123: He didn't take another commission because it isn't quite as easy as it sounds, especially these days.  The military is trying to downsize, so, if you just went to college, no ROTC, no Green to Gold, you most likely aren't going to be able to show up and get a commission.  It's easier and more likely to get sent to OCS by enlisting first.  But even that's getting harder.  My wife's assistant is a brand new prior enlisted 2nd Lt. fresh from OCS and OBC.  His OCS class had 150 enlisted students all with their degrees, but only needed 85 to get their commissions.  You could make it all the way through to graduation, and if they had too many people left, you would be sent back to your old unit as an enlisted to try again later.  This is not 2008-2009, when they were offering officers cash incentives to stay in, they have all the bodies they need and then some.


Damn.  Yeah.  Times have changed since I was commissioned...
 
2013-01-31 02:00:32 PM  

DROxINxTHExWIND: sigdiamond2000: Cyberluddite: Certainly some people find good and satisfying jobs, and do it right away (hell, I did, for that matter).

Were you a young, brash rainmaker who used your natural spunky charm to step on some toes and put the system on trial?

Is she a single, pretty young white woman who can't find love because of her hectic schedule and cold indifference to people who show her affection, until one confident mail clerk with a dream swept her off of her feet and showed her how to love again?


Dro, you have to quit it with your Harlequin Romance addiction.
 
2013-01-31 02:01:48 PM  

Supes: Note to young/potential lawyers out there: For the sake of your career, specialize in something early that you believe will exist long into the future. The problem is young lawyers are very fungible. You want that specialty to make yourself harder to replace and more desirable to hire.  Good options at the moment include IP, securities, tax.... things that will continue to be around for the foreseeable future.


This man Speaks the truth.  I got lucky and got a job right out of Law School, but it was as much managerial as legal, but at $80K I wasn't complaining-then at least)  When it evaporated after 5 years (contractor lost the contract)  I found myself pounding the pavement and finding that simply having a law degree wasn't impressing anyone.after about six weeks I went back and re-did my seume adding in every special skill I could think of.  That proved to be the key to all my susbequent jobs I've had.  I worked one FOIA request for the government agency i was contracting at as a favor to the senior counsel, and adding that one line to my resume got me call after call  FROM recruiters and all the Jobs I've had since.
 
2013-01-31 02:02:30 PM  

8 inches: EyeballKid: No field of study is safe, so long as any company with no sense of integrity whatsoever will move its business to hire the cheapest labor force possible in any field.

Just wondering.  What does hiring the cheapest labor force have to do with integrity?  I'd think finding the cheapest way to make a product or provide a service would show integrity to a company's shareholders - which in the end, are the only people a company is obligated to.


Ever hear of, "You get what you pay for?"
 
2013-01-31 02:03:47 PM  

Aar1012: Mugato: Law farking Bush managed to get a law degree, ffs. Sure there was nepotism involved but he still made it to class.

No, he didn't.

George H. W. Bush only went to Yale for undergrad

George W. Bush went to Yale for undergrad and then to Harvard for Business


My bad.

Business, law.They're both bullshiat. Does another dozen people want to point out my error?
 
2013-01-31 02:05:15 PM  

Mugato: Does another dozen people want to point out my error?


FIFY.

YW.
 
2013-01-31 02:05:38 PM  
abovethelaw.com
 
2013-01-31 02:06:36 PM  
Because People in power are Stupid: "Why don't they just work in Intellectual Property where they can make money by stealing other people's ideas and patenting them? "

Patent lawyers tend to hold one or more engineering degrees.
And when you have one or more engineering degrees, well, you don't work at Starbucks much.
 
2013-01-31 02:08:01 PM  
I know several lawyers. They are not happy about the glut of new lawyers coming out of law school. They are happy, however, about having a job before the brazillion newbies hit the marketplace. I also know some doctors. They think lawyers are prime candidates for nerve gas testing, seeing as rats are further up the food chain, and are too valuable to use as test subjects.I know some engineers got hired because they don't care what state they live in. Time looking for a new job: 2 weeks. Hired right out of college. Knew a chemical engineer who didn't want to leave the city. 6 months looking for a job. Finally got one through a friend. Making less than he would if he had been willing to drive a ways north every week. Petroleum position. Wyoming./l know some of both lawyers and doctors who are friends, but they are weird on their own way//engineer in training
 
2013-01-31 02:08:34 PM  
25.media.tumblr.com
We might be getting around to the point where more people can afford to have their own lawyers.

/Holy farknuts, the interface has changed.
 
2013-01-31 02:10:50 PM  

Trance354: I know several lawyers. They are not happy about the glut of new lawyers coming out of law school. They are happy, however, about having a job before the brazillion newbies hit the marketplace. I also know some doctors. They think lawyers are prime candidates for nerve gas testing, seeing as rats are further up the food chain, and are too valuable to use as test subjects.I know some engineers got hired because they don't care what state they live in. Time looking for a new job: 2 weeks. Hired right out of college. Knew a chemical engineer who didn't want to leave the city. 6 months looking for a job. Finally got one through a friend. Making less than he would if he had been willing to drive a ways north every week. Petroleum position. Wyoming./l know some of both lawyers and doctors who are friends, but they are weird on their own way//engineer in training


I know a girl who thinks of ghosts. She'll make ya breakfast, she'll make ya toast. She don't use butter, she don't use cheese. She don't use jelly....or any of these. She uses vaseline.
 
2013-01-31 02:11:20 PM  
What, the market for slip and fall scumbags has dried up?
 
2013-01-31 02:11:29 PM  

RexTalionis: DROxINxTHExWIND: sigdiamond2000: Cyberluddite: Certainly some people find good and satisfying jobs, and do it right away (hell, I did, for that matter).

Were you a young, brash rainmaker who used your natural spunky charm to step on some toes and put the system on trial?

Is she a single, pretty young white woman who can't find love because of her hectic schedule and cold indifference to people who show her affection, until one confident mail clerk with a dream swept her off of her feet and showed her how to love again?

Dro, you have to quit it with your Harlequin Romance addiction.


Its an excerpt from my new book, "30 Shades of Black". Its about a white lawyer who is caught in a love square with three black guys. Its going straight to DVD starring Terrence Howard, Carmelo Anthony, and Wesley Snipes.
 
2013-01-31 02:13:02 PM  

Mugato: Aar1012: Mugato: Law farking Bush managed to get a law degree, ffs. Sure there was nepotism involved but he still made it to class.

No, he didn't.

George H. W. Bush only went to Yale for undergrad

George W. Bush went to Yale for undergrad and then to Harvard for Business

My bad.

Business, law.They're both bullshiat. Does another dozen people want to point out my error?


Zero sympathy for not googling before posting in a thread likely to be populated by people who get paid to be pedantic

/:-)
 
2013-01-31 02:14:17 PM  

DROxINxTHExWIND: RexTalionis: DROxINxTHExWIND: sigdiamond2000: Cyberluddite: Certainly some people find good and satisfying jobs, and do it right away (hell, I did, for that matter).

Were you a young, brash rainmaker who used your natural spunky charm to step on some toes and put the system on trial?

Is she a single, pretty young white woman who can't find love because of her hectic schedule and cold indifference to people who show her affection, until one confident mail clerk with a dream swept her off of her feet and showed her how to love again?

Dro, you have to quit it with your Harlequin Romance addiction.

Its an excerpt from my new book, "30 Shades of Black". Its about a white lawyer who is caught in a love square with three black guys. Its going straight to DVD starring Terrence Howard, Carmelo Anthony, and Wesley Snipes.


That's not how shades work.
 
2013-01-31 02:15:00 PM  
I've been a lawyer for 6 years.  Last night, I broke the news to my wife that I want to become a teacher... so I can make more money.

/3.1/159, so take that.
 
2013-01-31 02:15:25 PM  
I tried grad school twice. First time for an MBA and I hated it. Then I tried MIS and despised it. If I ever go back, it'll be for an MA, because I'll work hard, finish it and love it. I'd rather put my effort in something I'll work hard at for years to come and feel fulfilled, than something I'll bust my balls off for, hate, and maybe do well enough to coast later (While fully regretting all the effort it took to get to the coasting point).
 
2013-01-31 02:15:41 PM  

CygnusDarius: There's always porn, and who knows, doing porn, you might end up giving classes in primary school:

[d24w6bsrhbeh9d.cloudfront.net image 700x1344]


Good.
 
2013-01-31 02:17:01 PM  

Koalaesq: pute kisses like a man: i just became a lawyer, and I'm one of those jerks who has a job but is looking for a better one.  (primarily because my current job sucks.  the pay for a young lawyer is balls.  and, it can be.  i'd be replaced in a second for someone who would probably work for less and probably be not that much worse.  luckily, my boss likes my work.  i just need more of it.).

/ even thought about JAG.  could be interesting, and I could force everyone to call me doctor lieutenant esquire

Mazel tov on the degree. Yes, the pay is awful, but just suck up knowledge and experience and then go out on your own if you have to!


thanks.

i like law and lawyering and I get it.  law just clicks in my mind.  it's probably the easiest profession for me to fall into.  unfortunately, the law seems to be a fraction of the job.  a lot of the work is uncompensable stuff like finding work or getting paid for work you've done.
 
2013-01-31 02:17:35 PM  
The United States has 5 percent of the world's population, 25 percent of the world's incarcerated people, and 50 percent of the world's lawyers.
 
2013-01-31 02:17:59 PM  

Nabb1: This is relevant to the discussion:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nMvARy0lBLE

And hilarious, because it's true.


Holy shiat, that's farking awesome--thanks for that!  And every single word if it is spot-on accurate.
 
2013-01-31 02:18:48 PM  

Chach: T14 or don't go.

Law students aren't doing badly. Law students at bad law schools are doing badly.

Go to Harvard, Yale, Stanford, NYU, Chicago, Columbia, Michigan, Virginia, Penn, Cornell, Georgetown, Berkeley, or Duke, or Northwestern. Fine, maybe Texas ... maybe UCLA. But that's it!


Mind you, employers who hire from those law schools aren't doing great. We've had some truly awful Harvard grads and they usually wash out quickly once its apparent that they don't know how to actually work for a living.
No, give me the man or woman who worked for several years before law school, and preferably worked <I>during</I> law school. They can handle a heavy workload.
 
2013-01-31 02:22:04 PM  

pute kisses like a man: a lot of the work is uncompensable stuff like finding work or getting paid for work you've done


Aha, THAT is the stuff that I like least about law, and why I much prefer in house counsel or non-profit/ legal aid stuff. I've never had to do billable hours in my life, and even though I get paid less, I know I'm getting a pay check at the end of the day and I don't have to fight for money. The law would be the perfect profession if it were just THE LAW and not the incidentals.
 
2013-01-31 02:25:01 PM  
my class, '05, was on the vanguard of the great decline

but i guess having work for a few years beats coming out and finding nothing waiting for you

 /holy shiat! has it really been nearly 8 years?
 
2013-01-31 02:27:13 PM  

Demagol: I graduated in 2009 and was one of the lucky ones. The firm I was interning with offered me an associate position when I passed the bar. There are a lot of my classmates out of work though, who have gone back for their MBA or other degrees to defer the loans...while racking up more debt.


I just managed to get an MBA.  My job reimbursed tuition, so I only paid for books.  I am not entirely what to do with the silly thing now that I have it.  What does entry level MBA work even look like?
 
2013-01-31 02:28:08 PM  

kronicfeld: sigdiamond2000: vernonFL: My sister hasn't even graduated law school yet and she already has a job with the local DAs office.

Is she a young, brash rainmaker who's going to use her natural spunky charm to step on some toes and put the system on trial?

Single Female Lawyer
Havin' lots of sex



 
2013-01-31 02:29:26 PM  

Supes: Good options at the moment include IP, securities, tax.... things that will continue to be around for the foreseeable future.


IP is really only a good option if you either have a computer science/eng or EE degree, or a Ph.D. in something like biochem.  I graduated cum laude from a top 10 law school, have 8 years at a top 50 firm, USPTO registered, and am stuck doing a contract job because I can barely get even get an initial interview in the area I did a lot of work in (pharma) because I have the wrong degree.  EE/CompSci though are in extremely high demand.
 
2013-01-31 02:31:12 PM  

GQueue: I graduated cum laude from a top 10 law school, have 8 years at a top 50 firm, USPTO registered, and am stuck doing a contract job because I can barely get even get an initial interview in the area I did a lot of work in (pharma) because I have the wrong degree.  EE/CompSci though are in extremely high demand.


Learn to program and then try to bridge the gap and go for bioinformatics?
 
2013-01-31 02:31:28 PM  

Mugato: Law school. Memorize a bunch of court case precedents and terminally boring laws and learn to argue like an asshole. Doesn't impress me. farking Bush managed to get a law degree, ffs. Sure there was nepotism involved but he still made it to class.


Eh, the nepotism was just in getting _into_ that school in the first place, he graduated entirely on his own merits.  With a C average, by all accounts, but like my old advisor used to say, D is for "diploma".

It's just not actually that hard or even that arcane.  The weird illusion that we had going through the '80s and '90s that cops and industrial workers were normal, kinda dim fellows and lawyers were the sharp-as-a-tack elite of arcane intellectualism seems to have died out again, probably because so many jobs now require some intermediate level of legal training.  And not high-falutin' jobs, either, I had to memorize the laws and know the common interpretations for an entire legal specialty (rent law) just to sit behind a desk and answer phones and sell apartments when I was a wee undergrad scraping through on minimum wage and cheap cocaine guts.

Not to mention basically everybody and their mother has a lawyer in the extended, if not immediate, family these days, for exactly the same reason -- it's the only real way to defend ourselves against the litigation boom of the '90s, so everyone considers it a viable option.

Or, to put it another way, an amateur mechanic is harder to find these days than the equivalent of a fully trained paralegal.

//Doctors have a similar issue with increasing numbers resulting in decreasing paychecks.  In their case it's mitigated by their profession actually being difficult rather than just dry and obscure, though.  Lawyers don't really have that protection, as anyone with the free time can do it.  Hell, in some states you can take (and pass) the bar without technically going to law school, and people have done it.
 
2013-01-31 02:31:32 PM  

Frozboz: Weaver95: RexTalionis: I did law because working as a programmer/IT technician seems like soul-crushing work.

Anyway, is anyone interested in hiring an IT guy who knows his way around the law?

shiat - i'm STILL looking for a job.  the IT field is pretty thin right now.

You're joking right?  My company is set to hire 100 IT workers of all types (programmers, DBAs, architects, infrastructure) this year, and we're turning away work we have such a high demand.  Our team alone could double in size and still not get all our work done.  I was about to get laid off last year (due to larger contractual issues between two companies), looked for a job for a week and got 2 offers, both paying 20%+ more than I was making the past two years.  I don't get where this "IT field is hurting" stuff is coming from.


It has everything to do with location. The IT industry, as a whole, is doing very well. However, you live in a place like (for example) Michigan and the only job you're going to find is maintaining websites for some shady small business owner and getting minimum wage. That's what happened to me. Once I moved to Texas (specifically, Austin) I could not walk five feet without tripping over an IT job

/just need to finish my certification and then I can start applying for the better ones.
//At current pace, one more month before I am confident I can pass. Two months before I am confident I can pay for the exam
 
2013-01-31 02:33:14 PM  

Grand_Moff_Joseph: What we need are engineers and scientists.


That would require taking real math classes, so it will never happen. I'm not complaining though. It just means more job security for me.
 
2013-01-31 02:33:26 PM  
My wife has a law degree... but she is not making a living as a lawyer.  Instead, she has made a very nice living doing contract management work for a few different companies.  Companies look for people with law degrees to fill those positions.
 
2013-01-31 02:35:35 PM  
You have to be insane to go to law school today. Not only has tuition ratcheted up (my school's has almost tripled since I went in the 1990s), but computers have taken a lot of the work away. Years ago, I was part of a team (two attorneys, several paralegals) doing a massive document review looking for anything connected to the case we were defending. We were on the client's site with over a thousand boxes of old correspondence, memos etc. Took us almost 2 months to get through it. Today, those documents would be scanned into digital form by some low wage kid and a computer would do the rest. As more and more grunt work gets automated and sent overseas, we will have less need for highly trained attorneys. There are just not enough good jobs to justify laying out $150k.

The whole law school education process needs to be changed. Enough with the three year one size fits all method. Some attorneys want the education law school provides to run their family business or go into some other alternate career. They don't need to take classes on writing briefs, moot court or international relations. But they could use more time with business law, contracts, negotiation, labor etc. Let some go for less time and money.
 
2013-01-31 02:36:59 PM  
As someone hired because his MA suggested he could translate code-monkey into English, I'm getting a kick out of this thread. No, seriously.
 
2013-01-31 02:37:29 PM  
Article says it all. Ridiculously expensive, not that great job prospects. The fact that a lot of firms won't even consider you unless you went to a handful of schools keeps prices for education inflated, in most areas.
 
2013-01-31 02:39:30 PM  

Koalaesq: pute kisses like a man: a lot of the work is uncompensable stuff like finding work or getting paid for work you've done

Aha, THAT is the stuff that I like least about law, and why I much prefer in house counsel or non-profit/ legal aid stuff. I've never had to do billable hours in my life, and even though I get paid less, I know I'm getting a pay check at the end of the day and I don't have to fight for money. The law would be the perfect profession if it were just THE LAW and not the incidentals.


I was fortunate in that I spent 5 years working in the domestic relations section of a  decent-sized circuit court before I went to law school.  In tha t job I got to meet a hell of a lot of the local solo- and small firm practicioners and befriend them.   The most vaulauble insight I gained from them was you should NOT open your own law firm if you want to practice law.   IF instead you want to be a small-businessman and you actually enjoy all that goes with that (advertising billing, ordering supplies, managing employees etc etc) then sure, hang out a shingle, but if you hate that/suck at it?   Run away.  At best you'll end up broke and at worst you'll end up disbarred.
 
2013-01-31 02:39:38 PM  
i218.photobucket.com

There's always work at the post office.
 
2013-01-31 02:40:50 PM  
But who will fight the big cases like Mom vs Frozen Pizzas!!!!
 
2013-01-31 02:41:10 PM  

Weaver95: RexTalionis: I did law because working as a programmer/IT technician seems like soul-crushing work.

Anyway, is anyone interested in hiring an IT guy who knows his way around the law?

shiat - i'm STILL looking for a job.  the IT field is pretty thin right now.


Depends on where you are. In Penn. that may be the case; here in TN it's booming - if you don't mind working health care.

/I've turned down a number of those positions
//I'll stick to manufacturing, thanks
 
2013-01-31 02:41:25 PM  

give me doughnuts: Mugato: Law school. Memorize a bunch of court case precedents and terminally boring laws and learn to argue like an asshole. Doesn't impress me. farking Bush managed to get a law degree, ffs. Sure there was nepotism involved but he still made it to class.

If you're talking about Bush 43, no, he didn't have a law degree. Neither did Jeb, or  Bush 41.


He has an MBA, IIRC. I don't think Dubya is actually stupid, just intellectually lazy.

/ just like I was, back in High School...
// left that attitude behind in my early 20's...
 
2013-01-31 02:41:55 PM  
I would have been in the class of 2007. I left after my first year (top third of the class in a non top 25 school). It sucks to be paying that debt down, but it would have sucked more to be miserable and paying 3x the debt. Instead, I remade myself, relocated, got a job in a field I liked, and another job after that. I work 40 hours a week and anything after that is OT, I get every holiday under the sun off, 2 days personal leave, 15 days/year vacation, and the work is interesting. The pay is not great but better than i would have made for the first decade as a public-sector lawyer, which is where I was headed.  I just wish i had figured it out soon enough to go to grad school for what I am doing now instead. life with a wife and kid in 2013 is much more complicated than life without either was in 2004.
 
2013-01-31 02:42:05 PM  

Cyberluddite: Rincewind53: Not me, I'm pretty and special and will graduate with money just raining down on me like some sort of cash bukkake.

As a lawyer myself, I've tried to talk many youngsters out of going to law school and becoming lawyers (including in TFD some advice threads over the years) , with tales of horrible working conditions, long hours, shiatty pay, poor job prospects, and widespread career dissatisfaction among most of my colleagues.  It always falls on deaf ears, and your sarcastic comment above is not too far off from what they actually say and seem to believe.  Unless I happen to talk to them a few years later, when I typically hear the "You were right--I wish I'd listened then" sort of comments.


If youth only knew: if age only could. Henri Estienne French
 
2013-01-31 02:42:11 PM  
Or you can take clients for one dollar.

img2-2.timeinc.net
 
2013-01-31 02:44:42 PM  
Speaking as an English major who just re-upped his contract for an extra seven percent pay putting me 35% above what's considered my state's median salary, all I can say is: Suck it, suckers!
 
2013-01-31 02:47:38 PM  

Grand_Moff_Joseph: Sucks for them, as it does for any new graduate looking for work.

That said though, the last thing we need is more freaking lawyers.  What we need are engineers and scientists.


This, but make sure the engineers understand that the old saying, "if you build a better mouse trap, the world will beat a path to your door," has never worked because the world needs to know why your mouse trap is better...and that's why you need us marketing and advertising hacks.

/ Scientists, you're good. Keep on sciencing.
 
2013-01-31 02:48:30 PM  

RexTalionis: I did law because working as a programmer/IT technician seems like soul-crushing work.

Anyway, is anyone interested in hiring an IT guy who knows his way around the law?


There are companies that specialize in eDiscovery. Maybe that might be a good place to start?
 
2013-01-31 02:49:09 PM  

Koalaesq: fawlty: Rincewind53: Not me, I'm pretty and special and will graduate with money just raining down on me like some sort of cash bukkake.

I know you're being facetious, but you're not far wrong.  If you're an attractve female and with decent grades and have a "bubbly" personality, you'll do fine. Which only means that law careers are the same as every other career.  Minorities will do well even without good grades because the law firms are trying to "diversify" i.e. not look like a good ole boys club.

Yes, that's what women and minorities always have it so easy and are equity partners in all the big law firms.

OH WAIT.


Doesn't mean they can do it once they get there.  But yeah, when I worked for a big firm and did interviews, they sent the resumes and transcripts out ahead of time. You could identify the African-American applicants on paper, because whites with those grades and scores would not have gotten a look.

Female and male applicants had equivalent qualifications.
 
2013-01-31 02:50:06 PM  
Don't go to law school to become rich that is only going to happen to a few, and those few will be from tier 1 schools

Do go into law if you have a passion about a part of it

The wife after being a family law paralegal on a military base for 20 years got sick of seeing solders hosed in divorces

She is now a Family law Attorney, No BMW no Mercedes, she is happy with her Accord and her work

Loans will be paid off at age 65, doing a CBA says it was foolish for her to do this, her personal satisfaction at making a difference says otherwise.

People whine about how much lawyers cost yet never complain when- if they figured it out- a doctor charges them twice as much for a 10 minute office visit that you have to wait an hour or and most likely does not solve the problem for another 3 or 4 visits
 
2013-01-31 02:50:22 PM  
Yeah, after you so called lawyers get out of school for all those years your Mc Job will be waiting for you. Or if you prefer, can you say "spill on isle four",,HAHAHAHAHA!!!!!

/ LAWYERS=BLOODSUCKERS
 
2013-01-31 02:50:55 PM  
The leading banker lawyer in Amsterdam is now the pastry chef in our kitchen.

static2.businessinsider.com
 
2013-01-31 02:51:21 PM  

Mitch Taylor's Bro: Grand_Moff_Joseph: Sucks for them, as it does for any new graduate looking for work.

That said though, the last thing we need is more freaking lawyers.  What we need are engineers and scientists.

This, but make sure the engineers understand that the old saying, "if you build a better mouse trap, the world will beat a path to your door,"...


or, it doesn't really matter, china will just steal the technology and make it for themselves.  (so, hire lawyers!)
 
2013-01-31 02:52:16 PM  

TheAlmightyOS: It has everything to do with location. The IT industry, as a whole, is doing very well. However, you live in a place like (for example) Michigan and the only job you're going to find is maintaining websites for some shady small business owner and getting minimum wage. That's what happened to me. Once I moved to Texas (specifically, Austin) I could not walk five feet without tripping over an IT job


CSB

A long time ago I lived in Spokane, Wa and I knew I wanted a career in IT. I made a list of areas with a high level of IT opportunities:


NY
Austin
Denver
Salt Lake City (no, really it is)
D.C.

Visited them all and decided where to move (I didn't include Silicon Valley or Seattle because I grew up in the valley and knew it well enough and living in Spokane I had enough experience in Seattle). I figured I would move and then get a degree in CS and start my career. There are other locations but these are the only ones I considered.

I moved to the Denver area (Boulder) and through a friend of a friend got my first IT job with zero certs and no professional experience.

Location is everything.
 
2013-01-31 02:54:10 PM  
Its almost as if most engineering, programming and IT jobs are so mind destroying boring that they take pleasure from others not being able to easily obtain a career after university, graduate school or post-grad studies.

Where I work we have plenty of positions for the IT&T, Cardinal Stretch, University of Phoenix diploma mill graduates. Sure they work 80 hour weeks and live out of a suitcase, but making 80% of what a 40 hour a week non-technical project manager makes must be the sweet life.
 
2013-01-31 02:55:34 PM  
I thought this sentence was awesome:

Research is faster and easier, requiring fewer lawyers, and is being outsourced to less expensive locales, including West Virginia and overseas.

So West Virginia is basically a third world country.
 
2013-01-31 02:56:19 PM  

Grand_Moff_Joseph: Sucks for them, as it does for any new graduate looking for work.

That said though, the last thing we need is more freaking lawyers.  What we need are engineers and scientists.


No, we don't. Trust me on this one. Even scientists and engineers are having a tough time finding a decent paying job. Employers prefer to hire kids from India at 1/2 to 1/3 the wage of a comparable American.
 
2013-01-31 02:56:49 PM  

Chach: T14 or don't go.

Law students aren't doing badly. Law students at bad law schools are doing badly.

Go to Harvard, Yale, Stanford, NYU, Chicago, Columbia, Michigan, Virginia, Penn, Cornell, Georgetown, Berkeley, or Duke, or Northwestern. Fine, maybe Texas ... maybe UCLA. But that's it!


My neighbor (and long time bartender) wrapped her JD at Cornell about 2.5 years ago, came back to Seattle, where the economy is doing a hell of a lot better than a lot of places, and bought a bunch of suits for interviewing. Passed the bar on the first try. Know what she is now? My neighborhood bartender again.
 
2013-01-31 02:57:11 PM  

Nabb1: This is relevant to the discussion:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nMvARy0lBLE

And hilarious, because it's true.


"Have you ever accepted a mediation and then discovered that the other side only requested it so a process server could trap your client in the bathroom of a Wendy's?"

Tears of helpless levity are rolling down my cheeks!
 
2013-01-31 02:57:59 PM  

I agree with you: Yeah, after you so called lawyers get out of school for all those years your Mc Job will be waiting for you. Or if you prefer, can you say "spill on isle four",,HAHAHAHAHA!!!!!

/ LAWYERS=BLOODSUCKERS


How many islands will they have to clean?
 
2013-01-31 02:58:30 PM  

doyner: Am I the only one who read TFA?  My takeaway from it was that law school is getting easier to get into and they're going to make it chaeaper.

Now all I gotta do is lern to rite good.


You've never read anything written by a lawyer.
 
2013-01-31 02:58:32 PM  

Weaver95: RexTalionis: I did law because working as a programmer/IT technician seems like soul-crushing work.

Anyway, is anyone interested in hiring an IT guy who knows his way around the law?

shiat - i'm STILL looking for a job.  the IT field is pretty thin right now.


Dude, Get the fark out of Dodge and move somewhere where there are IT jobs.
 
2013-01-31 02:58:47 PM  

jst3p: TheAlmightyOS: It has everything to do with location. The IT industry, as a whole, is doing very well. However, you live in a place like (for example) Michigan and the only job you're going to find is maintaining websites for some shady small business owner and getting minimum wage. That's what happened to me. Once I moved to Texas (specifically, Austin) I could not walk five feet without tripping over an IT job

CSB

A long time ago I lived in Spokane, Wa and I knew I wanted a career in IT. I made a list of areas with a high level of IT opportunities:


NY
Austin
Denver
Salt Lake City (no, really it is)
D.C.

Visited them all and decided where to move (I didn't include Silicon Valley or Seattle because I grew up in the valley and knew it well enough and living in Spokane I had enough experience in Seattle). I figured I would move and then get a degree in CS and start my career. There are other locations but these are the only ones I considered.

I moved to the Denver area (Boulder) and through a friend of a friend got my first IT job with zero certs and no professional experience.

Location is everything.


congrats. I was thinking Denver myself but choose Austin for its low cost of living and overall "weird" factor. Only downside here is they want paper proving you know what you know. When I got into IT my peers said certification was not necessary so I am a little behind the curve here
 
2013-01-31 02:59:33 PM  
What do you call 10,000 lawyers at the bottom of the ocean?

A good start!
 
2013-01-31 03:00:07 PM  

Rincewind53: Koalaesq: Rincewind53: kwame: You mean stubbornly enrolling in a professional school for a career field that is completely saturated with qualified people, then doing nothing to separate yourself from the crowd means it's hard to get a job?  F*ck.  That's amazing.

I think that's the thing. The people who are excelling are still getting jobs. The people who used to get jobs just by nature of having a degree are not. And the people who used to get jobs just by being  good, but not excelling, are not, which is the  real problem.

I think in law school (maybe like most fields?) it's not what you know, it's WHO you know. When I clerked, every single other clerk there save for one knew someone who got him or her the gig, and then of course the Judges helped us get good jobs afterwards

Yep, that's definitely part of it. My dad dated a woman in college, and forty years later, she's now a federal judge, and they're still somewhat friends. 'm considering using that just to get my foot in the door and my resume looked at, which makes me feel like a shiatty human being, but I justify it to myself by saying "Everyone else is doing it."

And they are. A friend of a friend got a Circuit Court clerkship because he worked with someone who was friends with the judge.


Why would you feel shiatty? There are no self-made men, only ungrateful assholes who think they did it all on their own and overlook all those little things people did to help them.

Everyone gets help somewhere along the way and if you fail to use every advantage to get where you want to go, you'll look back on your life with more regrets than if you'd just picked up the phone and said, "Hey, you don't know me, by my dad is so-and-so and he thought you might be able to help me get my foot in the door."
 
2013-01-31 03:01:18 PM  

Mitch Taylor's Bro: "Hey, you don't know me, but my dad is so-and-so and he thought you might be able to help me get my foot in the door."


Also, proofreading is important ::smacks forehead::
 
2013-01-31 03:01:47 PM  

I should be in the kitchen: Cyberluddite: Rincewind53: Not me, I'm pretty and special and will graduate with money just raining down on me like some sort of cash bukkake.

As a lawyer myself, I've tried to talk many youngsters out of going to law school and becoming lawyers (including in TFD some advice threads over the years) , with tales of horrible working conditions, long hours, shiatty pay, poor job prospects, and widespread career dissatisfaction among most of my colleagues.  It always falls on deaf ears, and your sarcastic comment above is not too far off from what they actually say and seem to believe.  Unless I happen to talk to them a few years later, when I typically hear the "You were right--I wish I'd listened then" sort of comments.

May I ask you, or any of the other law-types here, what you do like about being a lawyer? Just asking out of genuine curiosity. Does the profession just suck overall, or is it more a matter of matching your interests/skills to the right area of law, or of newbies having unreasonable expectations? I have a friend who passed the bar about a year ago and is working family law currently, and HATES it. His interest is business law; totally different animal!


Despite being the one to have posted that above, I'm probably not the best person to ask--I'm one of the rare ones who has had a reasonably interesting, rewarding career (not so much economically, though--I've sacrificed some money for the sake of doing what I want to do and not working my ass off 24/7).  But I was one of those annoying assholes who was ranked #1 in my law school class and was the editor-in-chief of the law review, and I graduated at a boom time for the legal profession when good candidates for legal jobs were very much in demand, which hasn't been the case in many years.  So that gave me a big leg up at the start of my career, and as a result I've generally  had some appealing options open to me ever since.  It's certainly true that those who graduate at the very top of their class will often have different experiences from the 99-percenters--though certainly not always.

The vast majority of law school grads (especially now) do not have similar experiences.  The problems are as follows:

--The number of law school graduates (and the number of unemployed experienced lawyers as well) greatly outnumbers the available jobs.  A long period of unemployment is not at all unusual.

--Because of this, people are tend to take whatever job they can get, in whatever area of the law they can get one.  The people who actually wind up working in the area they're most interested in--or the one they thought they were interested in when they started law school--are a tiny minority.  99.99% of people who went into law school saying like "I want to be a lawyer because I want to do appellate work on environmental causes" wind up, if they can get a job at The Firm at all, doing something mind-numbing and soul-crushing like reviewing 3,000,000 pages of documents in some insurance coverage dispute or reviewing 5-foot-tall stacks of medical records from a bunch of piddly worker's comp claims and writing bullshiat answers to 3000 interrogatories or requests for admission about them served by the other side.  Many lawyers who thought they were going to be the next Clarence Darrow don't see the inside of the courtroom for several years--if they ever do at all.

--All a lawyer has to sell is her or her time.  So they're required to sell a lot of it. The focus of the partners at The Firm is not on the quality of a junior lawyer's work, but on the number of hours they manage to put on their timesheet.  40-hour work weeks are unheard of.  70-80 weeks are the norm, and are considered barely satisfactory by firm management.  Such luxuries as sleep, outside interests, handling personal or family issues, or raising children are seriously frowned upon.  People who engage in such frivolities will not have successful careers at The Firm, and will likely be tossed out at some point.

--All of the above tends to seriously warp people.  Some sickos view all of the above as "a calling" of some kind, and are willing to sacrifice everything else that matters in a normal person's life to fit in with The Firm's view of what it takes to be a star.  These people are to be shunned, and they ruin things for everyone else.  Unfortunately, they also wind up running The Firm at some point if they don't burn out or die first.  These people tend to be defective humans.  They also tend to be the bosses at The Firm.  They have no idea how to be effective or acceptable bosses, however, because they're warped individuals themselves.  This simply perpetuates the cycle.

--For all of this, most lawyers--especially younger ones--are paid a small fraction of what everyone thinks lawyers really make.  (Except perhaps at the ultra high-end, top tier firms, which tend to hire only the top-tier grads from the top-tier schools, and work them even more hours than the other firms.)  Per hour actually worked, a plumber makes far more, and deals with less shiat.  And a plumber doesn't have to rack up a 6-figure amount of student loans as a prerequisite to practice his trade, which requires a young lawyer to have loan payments for 20 years that are more than most people pay for their home mortgage in much of the country.

There are other reasons why I don't recommend it.  These are just a few of the bigger ones..
 
2013-01-31 03:02:24 PM  
The free market has hit every profession except medicine, which still enjoys 100% employment and astronomical salaries. We need to open about 20 new accredited med schools in this country. The way it's supposed to work is: people are enticed to enter a field that has better a cost/benefit ratio than other fields. Because more people enter this field, it drives down salaries and drives up unemployment. Eventually, that field equilibrates with the market and no longer has a better cost/benefit ratio. This has happened to literally everything except medicine now.
 
2013-01-31 03:03:51 PM  

cig-mkr: The country needs to go back to apprenticeships like electricians, machinist, masons, carpenters, auto mechanics and such.
You probably won't eat steak every night, but you wouldn't starve either.


This can't be said enough. If I could do it all over again I'd be a certified welder or a machinist.  I'd be making only slightly less than what I make now with a mechanical engineering degree+master's degree in engineering management with about 1/10th of the debt.

I'd also get to actually build things instead of sitting at my cube doing technical writing until my soul crushes itself in a puddle of goo and drains out my ear onto the cube floor.  But I should be grateful, right? I've got a paycheck.
 
2013-01-31 03:07:49 PM  

Rincewind53: Not me, I'm pretty and special and will graduate with money just raining down on me like some sort of cash bukkake.


"Some sort of Cash Bukkake" TM Ask for it by name!
 
2013-01-31 03:12:22 PM  

Cyberluddite: --For all of this, most lawyers--especially younger ones--are paid a small fraction of what everyone thinks lawyers really make. (Except perhaps at the ultra high-end, top tier firms, which tend to hire only the top-tier grads from the top-tier schools, and work them even more hours than the other firms.) Per hour actually worked, a plumber makes far more, and deals with less shiat. And a plumber doesn't have to rack up a 6-figure amount of student loans as a prerequisite to practice his trade, which requires a young lawyer to have loan payments for 20 years that are more than most people pay for their home mortgage in much of the country.


Weird. As a guy in the remodeling industry my company does a ton of work in Seattle's more exclusive neighborhoods and has for the last couple of decades. Of the hundreds of fancy houses we've spruced up I can say that a pretty substantial percentage of them were owned by attorneys. But after over 600 projects we've yet to work for a rich plumber.

Amusing anecdote: A long time ago we did a project for a wealthy dude who had hired his own plumber outside of our contract to save a few bucks. I'm in there working away in the kitchen and the dude is complaining to the plumber about his bill rate, exclaiming tastefully, 'your hourly rate is higher than mine!'. Not stooping to the guy's level the plumber replied, 'you ought to be able to take care of this yourself then,' and walked out and got in his truck. I imagine he was thinking, 'I'm getting too old for this shiat.' It was sublime.
 
2013-01-31 03:12:37 PM  

Freudian_slipknot: Rincewind53: Not me, I'm pretty and special and will graduate with money just raining down on me like some sort of cash bukkake.

Oh god, I see this all the time.  I work in a corporate law firm and we have young folks coming through all the time who somehow leave here to go to law school - even having seen how bad things are from the inside.  Apparently they're all snowflakes who are going to somehow beat the odds with their degrees from whatever law school would take them (not a one is going to a top tier school).  It's like watching people commit (financial) suicide left and right.


What makes a law school "top tier," BTW?  I really have no clue, just preconceptions.  Is it reputation and contacts that make it easier to find work?  Does someone track graduates' performances to determine which schools produce better lawyers?  Is it as simple as the suicide rate among students? :-)
 
2013-01-31 03:13:44 PM  

BarkingUnicorn: Freudian_slipknot: Rincewind53: Not me, I'm pretty and special and will graduate with money just raining down on me like some sort of cash bukkake.

Oh god, I see this all the time.  I work in a corporate law firm and we have young folks coming through all the time who somehow leave here to go to law school - even having seen how bad things are from the inside.  Apparently they're all snowflakes who are going to somehow beat the odds with their degrees from whatever law school would take them (not a one is going to a top tier school).  It's like watching people commit (financial) suicide left and right.

What makes a law school "top tier," BTW?  I really have no clue, just preconceptions.  Is it reputation and contacts that make it easier to find work?  Does someone track graduates' performances to determine which schools produce better lawyers?  Is it as simple as the suicide rate among students? :-)


No, US News & World Reports actually puts out listings with law schools divided up into tiers every year.
 
2013-01-31 03:14:35 PM  
CSb time.  A few stories from my time working IT for a big DC law firm.

a manager that was sexually harassing employees, and sleeping with a subordinate.  Topped his career off by getting kickbacks from the hardware vendors, and selling our new equipment on ebay.
alcoholic network engineers, and a manager on a liquid lunch diet, who was alleged to be having an affair with a coworker, he was married.
the guy who used to chase the homeless people around the building (screaming) for exercise.
Two Blackberry admins that showed up stoned ever single day.(they left tons of porn).
an admin that was fired, went home and got drunk and remoted back in and destroyed the email system.(one year prison sentence).
the network guy that drank 5 large latte's everyday, capped off his career by setting off the Halon fire system in the NOC.
Email admin that personally unleashed a virus taking the system out for days.
tech who called from jail on coke possession  charges looking for bail money.
the couple having sex in the small copy room near my cube.
 
2013-01-31 03:17:14 PM  

I should be in the kitchen: Cyberluddite: Rincewind53: Not me, I'm pretty and special and will graduate with money just raining down on me like some sort of cash bukkake.

As a lawyer myself, I've tried to talk many youngsters out of going to law school and becoming lawyers (including in TFD some advice threads over the years) , with tales of horrible working conditions, long hours, shiatty pay, poor job prospects, and widespread career dissatisfaction among most of my colleagues.  It always falls on deaf ears, and your sarcastic comment above is not too far off from what they actually say and seem to believe.  Unless I happen to talk to them a few years later, when I typically hear the "You were right--I wish I'd listened then" sort of comments.

May I ask you, or any of the other law-types here, what you do like about being a lawyer? Just asking out of genuine curiosity. Does the profession just suck overall, or is it more a matter of matching your interests/skills to the right area of law, or of newbies having unreasonable expectations? I have a friend who passed the bar about a year ago and is working family law currently, and HATES it. His interest is business law; totally different animal!


I love my job. I was an engineer for a decade, and it was starting to get boring working on the same projects all the time. Now, I get to work on cutting edge technologies in dozens of different, unrelated fields. Every day has something interesting or exciting to work on, and each project tends to last only a few weeks at most.

But, I'm in patent prosecution, not litigation. That's a huge difference. Litigators are all either cutthroat sharks with huge ulcers and coke problems, or they're bait with bigger ulcers and heroin problems. Also, I've got no debt (wouldn't have gambled on changing careers if I didn't have a scholarship, and I worked full time through law school), so that takes a ton of the pressure off.

So, yeah, I loved law school and I love practicing... but other than patent prosecution, I would not recommend it for anyone and have told people not to go.
 
2013-01-31 03:18:27 PM  

NathanAllen: Its almost as if most engineering, programming and IT jobs are so mind destroying boring that they take pleasure from others not being able to easily obtain a career after university, graduate school or post-grad studies.

Where I work we have plenty of positions for the IT&T, Cardinal Stretch, University of Phoenix diploma mill graduates. Sure they work 80 hour weeks and live out of a suitcase, but making 80% of what a 40 hour a week non-technical project manager makes must be the sweet life.


Hmm.  At first it seems like it's really asking for a "U MAD, BRO?" response, but then when you take a deeper look... it starts by insults a group for their propensity for looking down on employment statuses of others and then immediately performs that very transgression itself.

Solid 7/10.  All the elements are there, but it's hard to take seriously anyone who holds up management as desirable position. It's more sad than inflammatory.  Anyway, not bad, but room for improvement.  Consider the effect of leaving off the first paragraph: by getting rid the adversarial context, the remaining text has more punch.  Leading with an implied, "why are you unemployed when we have these open spots," is far far more poignant.  You've got potential though.
 
2013-01-31 03:18:37 PM  
Here's a thought...go to court, get appointed cases.  I guarantee you can make more doing court appointments than working at Starbucks.
 
2013-01-31 03:18:59 PM  

BarkingUnicorn: Freudian_slipknot: Rincewind53: Not me, I'm pretty and special and will graduate with money just raining down on me like some sort of cash bukkake.

Oh god, I see this all the time.  I work in a corporate law firm and we have young folks coming through all the time who somehow leave here to go to law school - even having seen how bad things are from the inside.  Apparently they're all snowflakes who are going to somehow beat the odds with their degrees from whatever law school would take them (not a one is going to a top tier school).  It's like watching people commit (financial) suicide left and right.

What makes a law school "top tier," BTW?  I really have no clue, just preconceptions.  Is it reputation and contacts that make it easier to find work?  Does someone track graduates' performances to determine which schools produce better lawyers?  Is it as simple as the suicide rate among students? :-)


Rex is right, it's almost solely based on the US News rankings. The top 14 schools (known as the T14) have stayed the same schools (only moving around within the top 14) for some obscene length of time, like 20 years or so.
 
2013-01-31 03:21:39 PM  

EyeballKid: No field of study is safe, so long as any company with no sense of integrity whatsoever will move its business to hire the cheapest labor force possible in any field.


You want security, go in to the trades. No matter how hard they try they can't repair your leaky pipes or blown breaker from a sweatshop in India.
 
2013-01-31 03:21:46 PM  

BarkingUnicorn: Freudian_slipknot: Rincewind53: Not me, I'm pretty and special and will graduate with money just raining down on me like some sort of cash bukkake.

Oh god, I see this all the time.  I work in a corporate law firm and we have young folks coming through all the time who somehow leave here to go to law school - even having seen how bad things are from the inside.  Apparently they're all snowflakes who are going to somehow beat the odds with their degrees from whatever law school would take them (not a one is going to a top tier school).  It's like watching people commit (financial) suicide left and right.

What makes a law school "top tier," BTW?  I really have no clue, just preconceptions.  Is it reputation and contacts that make it easier to find work?  Does someone track graduates' performances to determine which schools produce better lawyers?  Is it as simple as the suicide rate among students? :-)


It's all about the Us News rankings, sadly.  And law School deans who tell you otherwise are farking liars.   If I made a mistake in my legal career, it was turning down a scholarship to a top 10 school (U-Penn) to go to a second tier school in Chicago with a slightly bigger scholarship (Chicago-Kent) because I liked the atomosphere and quality of the teachers and Clinics at Kent better.  I have no doubt I got a better education and better experiences where I went, but I have equally no doubt that it has cost me financially in the long run, because those top ten schools have a cachet with hiring managers that the others don't
 
2013-01-31 03:24:06 PM  

jst3p: redmid17: Mugato: Law school. Memorize a bunch of court case precedents and terminally boring laws and learn to argue like an asshole. Doesn't impress me. farking Bush managed to get a law degree, ffs. Sure there was nepotism involved but he still made it to class.

W didn't have a law degree. He got an MBA.

Clinton got a BJ from a BBW.


I don't know if I'd call her a BBW.. maybe just a BW..
 
2013-01-31 03:26:08 PM  
Well I think that leaves engineering and medical degrees as the only thing to pursue in college that doesn't get the internet all uppity and saying things like "what did you expect with such a worthless waste of money and time with your Liberal Arts/Teaching/MBA/Business/Lit/Nursing/Women's Studies/JD/Communications degree"


meanwhile it alludes anyone to comment that maybe we're raising the bar just a tad too high on the current crop of college graduates when virtually every single pursuit is considered a waste of resources.
 
2013-01-31 03:26:20 PM  

wildcardjack: /Holy farknuts, the interface has changed.


Change it back.
 
2013-01-31 03:29:02 PM  

SpectroBoy: EyeballKid: No field of study is safe, so long as any company with no sense of integrity whatsoever will move its business to hire the cheapest labor force possible in any field.

You want security, go in to the trades. No matter how hard they try they can't repair your leaky pipes or blown breaker from a sweatshop in India.


Oh, you just wait for telepresence to become a thing.  Then again, that'd probably lead to enough legal oddities to keep the lawyers entertained for a few years.
 
2013-01-31 03:32:19 PM  
hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha

I have a little bit of schadenfreude with this.  No one is more delusionally self-assured than a second-year law student.  Maybe this will change things.

The coming unemployment for new lawyers has been talked about for the last decade, any of them who says they didn't see this coming are idiots.

I graduated six years ago while working full-time as an auditor.  I practiced for a couple of years and then got promoted back out of legal, thank God.  Auditing & accounting may have a lower ceiling, narrower scope, and less excitement, but it sure as hell is more secure.
 
2013-01-31 03:32:24 PM  

TheAlmightyOS: jst3p: TheAlmightyOS: It has everything to do with location. The IT industry, as a whole, is doing very well. However, you live in a place like (for example) Michigan and the only job you're going to find is maintaining websites for some shady small business owner and getting minimum wage. That's what happened to me. Once I moved to Texas (specifically, Austin) I could not walk five feet without tripping over an IT job

CSB

A long time ago I lived in Spokane, Wa and I knew I wanted a career in IT. I made a list of areas with a high level of IT opportunities:


NY
Austin
Denver
Salt Lake City (no, really it is)
D.C.

Visited them all and decided where to move (I didn't include Silicon Valley or Seattle because I grew up in the valley and knew it well enough and living in Spokane I had enough experience in Seattle). I figured I would move and then get a degree in CS and start my career. There are other locations but these are the only ones I considered.

I moved to the Denver area (Boulder) and
through a friend of a friend got my first IT job with zero certs and no professional experience.

Location is everything.


Oh okey.

 
2013-01-31 03:32:54 PM  

macadamnut: wildcardjack: /Holy farknuts, the interface has changed.

Change it back.


You'll get over it.
 
2013-01-31 03:36:03 PM  

treecologist: Re: Farkers' opinions of liberal arts majors:

It is also true that, on a per capita basis, liberal arts colleges send the most students into graduate training in those STEM disciplines -- science, technology, engineering, mathematics -- where jobs workers are most needed and from which economic growth is most likely to spring. So there seems to be a direct rather than an inverse correlation between being educated in an intellectually broad environment and economic prosperity.

But keep beating that dead horse.


Government is no better at picking winners and losers among education majors than HS grads are; nobody has a crystal ball.  But the paragraph you quote doesn't support its conclusion at all.

One might conclude that liberal arts majors learn their undergrad degrees were mistakes at a higher rate than others.
 
2013-01-31 03:36:35 PM  

Supes: Rex is right, it's almost solely based on the US News rankings. The top 14 schools (known as the T14) have stayed the same schools (only moving around within the top 14) for some obscene length of time, like 20 years or so.



RexTalionis: No, US News & World Reports actually puts out listings with law schools divided up into tiers every year.


I think the real question, in that case, is what is it to US News & World Report that makes a "top-tier" law school? I imagine it's a long list of mostly arbitrary variables that are largely self-reported (and subsequently fudged) by the schools in order to inflate their rankings in much the same way they do their university rankings, but what're some of the more important variables they look at? Am I going to get a vastly different experience if I take a constitutional law class at Harvard Law School vs. U of Chicago Law School vs. LSU Holy-Shiat-When-Did-We-Get-A-Law School?


AncientLurker: CSb time.  A few stories from my time working IT for a big DC law firm.

a manager that was sexually harassing employees, and sleeping with a subordinate.  Topped his career off by getting kickbacks from the hardware vendors, and selling our new equipment on ebay.
alcoholic network engineers, and a manager on a liquid lunch diet, who was alleged to be having an affair with a coworker, he was married.
the guy who used to chase the homeless people around the building (screaming) for exercise.
Two Blackberry admins that showed up stoned ever single day.(they left tons of porn).
an admin that was fired, went home and got drunk and remoted back in and destroyed the email system.(one year prison sentence).
the network guy that drank 5 large latte's everyday, capped off his career by setting off the Halon fire system in the NOC.
Email admin that personally unleashed a virus taking the system out for days.
tech who called from jail on coke possession  charges looking for bail money.
the couple having sex in the small copy room near my cube.


Sounds like Biden's law firm is quite the place to be.
 
2013-01-31 03:39:10 PM  
Yep yep yep.  My wife is an attorney but quit to stay at home with our 5 month old.  Her income was such that it was almost just as cost effective for her to quit than to pay for daycare.  And she was one of the lucky ones to even have job!  The amount of new attorneys competing to work for free just to get some sort of experience was mind boggling.

Oh and as I seem to be surrounded by attorneys in my personal life I would like to say all of you mother farkers stop talking about law in every single conversation you have.
 
2013-01-31 03:39:17 PM  
AWESOME, I was wondering when this story would finally make it to fark.

Didn't RTFA - don't have to.  This has been a perfect storm brewing for years and hit with the recession.  So much blame to go around:  arrogant partners who thought they could start charging 500 then a thousand bucks an hour in the span of a few years, rampant padding of the bills (lying on the legal bill), law schools admitting more and more folks even though we already have a glut of people, the local bar associations asleep at the watch (admit as many folks as possible!  set up even more law schools!), the govt who decided to cover law school debt.

Sadly, the people are getting up the arse are the ones who didn't cause the problem in the first place:  the law students who come out with 150, 200K in debt for less jobs and less money... and the associates who get fired/laid off because the firm's clients didn't enjoy being raped on the fees during the boom times.

Oh, I could go on with this subject.

/Fark the law profession - we deserve what is coming to us
//Tell people all the time - DON'T GO TO LAW SCHOOL!
///Lawyer, yeah gainfully employed
 
2013-01-31 03:40:01 PM  

FizixJunkee: No, we don't. Trust me on this one. Even scientists and engineers are having a tough time finding a decent paying job. Employers prefer to hire kids from India at 1/2 to 1/3 the wage of a comparable American.


The computer field isn't doing too bad.  I'm happily employed, and get recruiter letters on linkedin weekly.

The pure sciences, otoh, have always been harshly competitive.  Only the top fraction of a percent get relevant jobs. (Even before India modernized their infrastructure.)

I think part of the problem is the concept in the U.S. that everyone  has to go to college.  This creates a glut of aimless people, who choose a degree not because they have an burning intellectual passion for it and desperately want to learn more, but because it is the default and their high school counselor said it pays well.  "oh well, might as well do this, I guess"
 
2013-01-31 03:40:29 PM  

fireclown: macadamnut: wildcardjack: /Holy farknuts, the interface has changed.

Change it back.

You'll get over it.


What?

Preferences -> un-check "enable modern rich text" -> over it.
 
2013-01-31 03:41:19 PM  

BarkingUnicorn: treecologist: Re: Farkers' opinions of liberal arts majors:

It is also true that, on a per capita basis, liberal arts colleges send the most students into graduate training in those STEM disciplines -- science, technology, engineering, mathematics -- where jobs workers are most needed and from which economic growth is most likely to spring. So there seems to be a direct rather than an inverse correlation between being educated in an intellectually broad environment and economic prosperity.

But keep beating that dead horse.

Government is no better at picking winners and losers among education majors than HS grads are; nobody has a crystal ball.  But the paragraph you quote doesn't support its conclusion at all.

One might conclude that liberal arts majors learn their undergrad degrees were mistakes at a higher rate than others.


That pattern sort of jibes with the idea people can find employment with a BS in a STEM field whereas the others are forced to seek differentiation to compete for a smaller set of opportunities.
 
2013-01-31 03:42:48 PM  
And my slashies aren't working.I feel that it is just like IT: the more you know, the more marketable you are. I have an archaic degree in computers, but it is paying dividends in my engineering classes because I have the background to understand where the material is coming from. The more languages and autocad programs I learn, the more likely I am to find a position at a company doing something I want to do, not some form of vending machine repair. Like the positions several of my professors left when they went back for their doctorates.the same is true for lawyers: the more masteries you have, the meter you look to potential employers. /my 2 cents
 
2013-01-31 03:43:28 PM  

Rincewind53: Koalaesq: Rincewind53: kwame: You mean stubbornly enrolling in a professional school for a career field that is completely saturated with qualified people, then doing nothing to separate yourself from the crowd means it's hard to get a job?  F*ck.  That's amazing.

I think that's the thing. The people who are excelling are still getting jobs. The people who used to get jobs just by nature of having a degree are not. And the people who used to get jobs just by being  good, but not excelling, are not, which is the  real problem.

I think in law school (maybe like most fields?) it's not what you know, it's WHO you know. When I clerked, every single other clerk there save for one knew someone who got him or her the gig, and then of course the Judges helped us get good jobs afterwards

Yep, that's definitely part of it. My dad dated a woman in college, and forty years later, she's now a federal judge, and they're still somewhat friends. 'm considering using that just to get my foot in the door and my resume looked at, which makes me feel like a shiatty human being, but I justify it to myself by saying "Everyone else is doing it."

And they are. A friend of a friend got a Circuit Court clerkship because he worked with someone who was friends with the judge.


law school is like any other school - if you have no idea what you want to do when you get out and take BS courses (ex. women's studies, legal history, etc.), fart around and graduate in the bottom half of your class, it's a waste of time and money. If you want to do tax or IP and take a bunch of classes in your area and graduate in the top half, you'll do just fine. Also, get a good clerking job (Federal District court and above) and you really boost your chances (connections won't get you these clerkships - they may get you an interview but you better have a stellar transcript - also Fed judges will work you to death - mostly type A workaholics)
 
2013-01-31 03:46:51 PM  
I love pissin you off, it gets me off. Like the lawyers, when the farkin judge lets me off...
 
2013-01-31 03:53:52 PM  

cig-mkr: The country needs to go back to apprenticeships like electricians, machinist, masons, carpenters, auto mechanics and such.
You probably won't eat steak every night, but you wouldn't starve either.


I agree completely, but I doubt the law schools would. Why would they give up that sweet tuition to let the baby lawyers leave to apprentice after the second year?
 
2013-01-31 03:53:53 PM  
"IS THERE A LAWYER IN THE HOUSE????"

4.bp.blogspot.com
 
2013-01-31 04:01:53 PM  
 I have maybe two friends who are lawyers and are truly good at it, love their jobs, and has always dreamed of becoming one. Everyone else with a JD graduated college with a liberal arts degree and was surprised they weren't commanding $100k at their jobs and so they went into law school (and for most of them, mommy + daddy paid). Those are the ones that aren't doing so well.


Theaetetus: Chach: T14 or don't go.

No, give me the man or woman who worked for several years before law school, and preferably worked <I>during</I> law school. They can handle a heavy workload.


Ugh. You don't even know how many of my friends truly think they've accomplished something because they went to law or business school full time. In my head, you are a dumbass if you can't go to school full time and do well.
 
2013-01-31 04:02:14 PM  
What? AAH! I move for a bad court thingy.

- Lionel Hutz (RIP)
 
ows
2013-01-31 04:02:34 PM  
you could line up all the lawyers 3 abreast and march them into the ocean and the line would never stop..........

I just like to think about that.
 
2013-01-31 04:05:25 PM  

macadamnut: fireclown: macadamnut: wildcardjack: /Holy farknuts, the interface has changed. Change it back. You'll get over it. What? Preferences -> un-check "enable modern rich text" -> over it.



What do you imagine is the point for the new default text box? Is this going to make it easier to copy paste Facebook/Twitter/Instacrap or something?

I can see some inconvenience from Farkers who choose to copy text from the articles with odd colors/fonts.

/Probably missing an important piece of the puzzle here...
 
2013-01-31 04:05:33 PM  

RexTalionis: I did law because working as a programmer/IT technician seems like soul-crushing work.

Anyway, is anyone interested in hiring an IT guy who knows his way around the law?


What's your bachelor's degree in?
 
2013-01-31 04:06:09 PM  

ConstitutionGuy: law school is like any other school - if you have no idea what you want to do when you get out and take BS courses (ex. women's studies, legal history, etc.), fart around and graduate in the bottom half of your class, it's a waste of time and money. If you want to do tax or IP and take a bunch of classes in your area and graduate in the top half, you'll do just fine. Also, get a good clerking job (Federal District court and above) and you really boost your chances (connections won't get you these clerkships - they may get you an interview but you better have a stellar transcript - also Fed judges will work you to death - mostly type A workaholics)


Also like any other school, in that you can't expect to walk out the door with a degree in hand and expect a fabulous job to come to you, even if you're top of the class in a valuable area.  I earned a PhD in a recession-proof field in 1998, and all my job interviews were between 400 and 900 miles from where I was going to school, because that's where the best jobs were in my field at that time.  I also had to be willing to start at the very bottom, responsibility- and pay-wise, because when everyone in your field has the same degree, you are not a special snowflake just for having that degree, no matter how good your school was (mine was great) or how good your advisor was (mine was excellent).

No, you are a newbie who needs to learn the real stuff now, and if that means moving 660 miles away and living in a one-bedroom apartment with no furniture for two years as you try to show that you deserve better than your initial lowball salary, you do that.  The idea that "degree=immediately fabulous life on my own terms" is a bizarre mindset, for any student or any degree, and now the jobs themselves are getting harder to find, it's downright suicidal.  Right now, graduate school should only be an option if you know what you want to do with it, you can do it quickly, you can get someone else to pay for it, and you can afford to go where the jobs are afterwards.
 
2013-01-31 04:07:55 PM  

macadamnut: fireclown: macadamnut: wildcardjack: /Holy farknuts, the interface has changed.

Change it back.

You'll get over it.

What?

Preferences -> un-check "enable modern rich text" -> over it.


See?
 
2013-01-31 04:09:35 PM  

RexTalionis: BarkingUnicorn: Freudian_slipknot: Rincewind53: Not me, I'm pretty and special and will graduate with money just raining down on me like some sort of cash bukkake.

Oh god, I see this all the time.  I work in a corporate law firm and we have young folks coming through all the time who somehow leave here to go to law school - even having seen how bad things are from the inside.  Apparently they're all snowflakes who are going to somehow beat the odds with their degrees from whatever law school would take them (not a one is going to a top tier school).  It's like watching people commit (financial) suicide left and right.

What makes a law school "top tier," BTW?  I really have no clue, just preconceptions.  Is it reputation and contacts that make it easier to find work?  Does someone track graduates' performances to determine which schools produce better lawyers?  Is it as simple as the suicide rate among students? :-)

No, US News & World Reports actually puts out listings with law schools divided up into tiers every year.


:-) As a certain magazine publisher once said to me, "Man is the only creature that makes lists."  Lots of readers said they mainly bought that rag for the lists.
 
2013-01-31 04:12:22 PM  

fireclown: macadamnut: fireclown: macadamnut: wildcardjack: /Holy farknuts, the interface has changed.

Change it back.

You'll get over it.

What?

Preferences -> un-check "enable modern rich text" -> over it.

See?


No, you!
 
2013-01-31 04:13:21 PM  

Theaetetus: No, give me the man or woman who worked for several years before law school, and preferably worked <I>during</I> law school. They can handle a heavy workload.


That would be me.  Worked full time during all of law school, with a three-hour commute the last two years, renovated two houses by hand, had our first child, and graduated at the top of my class with highest GPA in the school's 100+ year history.  Oh, and I'm published.  Taking the bar at the end of Feb...

Let me know if you're hiring in TN :-)
 
2013-01-31 04:13:28 PM  

Orgasmatron138: I thought this sentence was awesome:

Research is faster and easier, requiring fewer lawyers, and is being outsourced to less expensive locales, including West Virginia and overseas.

So West Virginia is basically a third world country.


Lol, came to post this almost word for word.
 
2013-01-31 04:13:29 PM  
cig-mkr: The country needs to go back to apprenticeships like electricians, machinist, masons, carpenters, auto mechanics and such.
You probably won't eat steak every night, but you wouldn't starve either.



Actually, that's the standard for the UK and other commonwealth countries if you want to be a solicitor (a lawyer who doesn't get to argue in court). They do something called "training contracts" after law school.  Its like a year or two with a firm or in-house legal dept, and normally you aren't paid a whole lot - but then again they dont have to worry about US student debt.  You actualy get out of your training period at generlly the same age Americans get out of law school.

In speaking with soliciters, they were pretty shocked that I could get out of law school at age 28 and be given a legal case or matter immediately without any supervision and even go to court to argue.   Of course that really doesnt happen unless you are really with a tiny firm or a solo, but the thought or possibility is unthinkable in the British system.
 
2013-01-31 04:14:52 PM  

vernonFL: My sister hasn't even graduated law school yet and she already has a job with the local DAs office.


That's cause she is not lawyer but a biatch for a lawyer. Probably a paralegal. Doesn't mean she will get her lawyer wings when she is done and ready.
 
2013-01-31 04:16:08 PM  

D_Evans45: What do you imagine is the point for the new default text box? Is this going to make it easier to copy paste Facebook/Twitter/Instacrap or something?


Beats me, but I got rid of it as soon as I could. I still curse Photobucket every time I open it.
 
2013-01-31 04:16:34 PM  
If you want to be valuable to society and hence get paid for your value then by god learn how to build something society wants. This means learn some math, learn some programming, learn some welding, learn some mechanical engineering, learn something that society needs.

Law and liberal arts majors don't offer anything valuable to survival. No apologies offered for how the world works, that's just how it works. The developing nations know this, that's why they're developing so quickly.

And before you say that smart-phones and the gadget craze doesn't offer anything to survival, try surviving without modern conveniences. Their existence changes culture which in turn generates the need for their existence. Steve Jobs understood this very well. It's just a shame he was such an egomaniac he could have been much more helpful to society at large if he had a single altruistic bone in his body.
 
2013-01-31 04:16:34 PM  

RexTalionis: I did law because working as a programmer/IT technician seems like soul-crushing work.
Anyway, is anyone interested in hiring an IT guy who knows his way around the law?


Piece of advice - if you do land an IT interview, don't start out by telling them you think IT work is soul-crushing.  Your attitude just  may have something to do with it.
 
2013-01-31 04:29:59 PM  

Theaetetus: Also, I've got no debt (wouldn't have gambled on changing careers if I didn't have a scholarship, and I worked full time through law school),


Not that anyone believes that you are a lawyer. In fact you have been known to cite legal "facts" which contradict reality. But now we are expected to believe that you are an engineer too. My dear, what law school did you go to, that let you take only night classes? What "engineering" firm would hire someone who is so blatantly counter-factual that can't admit when she is wrong?

It's not insulting that you constantly lie in your projection of yourself. It's insulting that you think that we would believe it.
 
2013-01-31 04:31:49 PM  

Snakeophelia: Also like any other school, in that you can't expect to walk out the door with a degree in hand and expect a fabulous job to come to you, even if you're top of the class in a valuable area.  I earned a PhD in a recession-proof field in 1998, and all my job interviews were between 400 and 900 miles from where I was going to school, because that's where the best jobs were in my field at that time.  I also had to be willing to start at the very bottom, responsibility- and pay-wise, because when everyone in your field has the same degree, you are not a special snowflake just for having that degree, no matter how good your school was (mine was great) or how good your advisor was (mine was excellent).

No, you are a newbie who needs to learn the real stuff now, and if that means moving 660 miles away and living in a one-bedroom apartment with no furniture for two years as you try to show that you deserve better than your initial lowball salary, you do that.  The idea that "degree=immediately fabulous life on my own terms" is a bizarre mindset, for any student or any degree,



And this.  Cannot be stressed enough for recent college grads.  Don't just read it.  Understand it, and know it to be a truth.

People who have little to no experience, or word of mouth reputation in their field, and then complain they only get entry level jobs, evidently don't seem to grasp the concept of entry level.  In other words - yep, duh.  You have to do really great at your entry level job for a few years, and be enthusiastic about doing so,  before people are going to trust you with the high paying positions.
 
2013-01-31 04:33:53 PM  
graphics8.nytimes.com

The economy doing better results in fewer people applying to spend 3 years in graduate school rather than get a paying job today.

images.sodahead.com
 
2013-01-31 04:45:24 PM  
I spoke with Mrs Q, who is a partner in a large national firm, for any additions/caveats to the "Top 10 School or it's a waste" argument. She says: There are no set rules, but if you even want to get to the interview process for one of those $160k starting jobs at a big firm, then yes, coming from a top 10-20 school is a near must. You can also get an interview if you're from a respectable regional school (e.g. SMU for firms/offices here in Dallas). In either case, it's not good enough to have gone to one of those schools, you also need to be near the top of your class. There are always exceptions: nepotism, interesting background, connections, etc.
So, you did all that and aced the interview and got the job. You're reward (apart from what is, by any reasonable standard, a really good starting salary): 60-80 hour work weeks, competing to get work with other associates, needing to get on projects with all the different partners in whatever practice group you choose/have to settle for. Making the latter two difficult is the fact that, despite that JD with honors from a top 10 school, you're still essentially useless to the partners and higher level associates because you have no experience in the actual, real work they do and are probably just going to fark it up and make more work for them. They're just hoping you're bright and dedicated enough that you can eventually be of some use. Yep, congratulations, you've now entered a 10 year interview process (length varies depending on the firm, of course) lasting 60+ hours every week to see if you've got what it takes to be partner one day. If you're not being consistently staffed on things after your first few months to a year, well, then don't be surprised if one day so your group's head partner calls you in one day and lets you know that you might be better off seeking opportunities elsewhere. Again, congratulations!

/Mrs. Q likes her work, but there are hints she might retain some lingering bitterness about some of the process
 
2013-01-31 04:46:07 PM  

Because People in power are Stupid: Theaetetus: Also, I've got no debt (wouldn't have gambled on changing careers if I didn't have a scholarship, and I worked full time through law school),

Not that anyone believes that you are a lawyer. In fact you have been known to cite legal "facts" which contradict reality. But now we are expected to believe that you are an engineer too. My dear, what law school did you go to, that let you take only night classes? What "engineering" firm would hire someone who is so blatantly counter-factual that can't admit when she is wrong?

It's not insulting that you constantly lie in your projection of yourself. It's insulting that you think that we would believe it.


Georgetown University Law Center has a good night program (unless they've gotten rid of it).  I am sure there are others.
 
2013-01-31 04:49:56 PM  

Hydra: Supes: Rex is right, it's almost solely based on the US News rankings. The top 14 schools (known as the T14) have stayed the same schools (only moving around within the top 14) for some obscene length of time, like 20 years or so.


RexTalionis: No, US News & World Reports actually puts out listings with law schools divided up into tiers every year.

I think the real question, in that case, is what is it to US News & World Report that makes a "top-tier" law school? I imagine it's a long list of mostly arbitrary variables that are largely self-reported (and subsequently fudged) by the schools in order to inflate their rankings in much the same way they do their university rankings, but what're some of the more important variables they look at? Am I going to get a vastly different experience if I take a constitutional law class at Harvard Law School vs. U of Chicago Law School vs. LSU Holy-Shiat-When-Did-We-Get-A-Law School?



The content of the course probably won't be very different, but your fellow students will be brighter and your job prospects will be much better if you're at Harvard or to a lesser extent Chicago.  Given how much law school costs...
 
2013-01-31 04:53:15 PM  

johncb76006: What, the market for slip and fall scumbags has dried up?


No, because of the down turn in the economy the insurance industry has brought a whole lot of stuff in-house that they used to send out. They then refuse to hire more associates and just beat 90-100 hours out of the ones they currently have.
 
2013-01-31 04:55:28 PM  

Azlefty: Don't go to law school to become rich that is only going to happen to a few, and those few will be from tier 1 schools


Not necessarily, if you are wiling to be an ambulance chaser, are good at marketing yourself, and actually win some cases you can get rich if you start your own firm, but then again you could starve.
 
2013-01-31 04:59:39 PM  

Slaves2Darkness: Azlefty: Don't go to law school to become rich that is only going to happen to a few, and those few will be from tier 1 schools

Not necessarily, if you are wiling to be an ambulance chaser, are good at marketing yourself, and actually win some cases you can get rich if you start your own firm, but then again you could starve.


Right - anyone can be Saul Goodman if they have the (lack of) scruples.
 
2013-01-31 05:01:06 PM  

johnnyq: I spoke with Mrs Q, who is a partner in a large national firm, for any additions/caveats to the "Top 10 School or it's a waste" argument. She says: There are no set rules, but if you even want to get to the interview process for one of those $160k starting jobs at a big firm, then yes, coming from a top 10-20 school is a near must. You can also get an interview if you're from a respectable regional school (e.g. SMU for firms/offices here in Dallas). In either case, it's not good enough to have gone to one of those schools, you also need to be near the top of your class. There are always exceptions: nepotism, interesting background, connections, etc.
So, you did all that and aced the interview and got the job. You're reward (apart from what is, by any reasonable standard, a really good starting salary): 60-80 hour work weeks, competing to get work with other associates, needing to get on projects with all the different partners in whatever practice group you choose/have to settle for. Making the latter two difficult is the fact that, despite that JD with honors from a top 10 school, you're still essentially useless to the partners and higher level associates because you have no experience in the actual, real work they do and are probably just going to fark it up and make more work for them. They're just hoping you're bright and dedicated enough that you can eventually be of some use. Yep, congratulations, you've now entered a 10 year interview process (length varies depending on the firm, of course) lasting 60+ hours every week to see if you've got what it takes to be partner one day. If you're not being consistently staffed on things after your first few months to a year, well, then don't be surprised if one day so your group's head partner calls you in one day and lets you know that you might be better off seeking opportunities elsewhere. Again, congratulations!

/Mrs. Q likes her work, but there are hints she might retain some lingering bitterness about some of th ...


My roommate is 4 months into this very process.  He hates it and counts the seconds... but if he leaves before a year, they get to take $10,000 back from him.  So he's stuck.  I knew better than to stick my dick in the bear trap after law school and found a job that I love and that has a great work/life balance, in addition to helping people I care about.  Life is funny sometimes.
 
2013-01-31 05:14:45 PM  

SirEattonHogg: cig-mkr: The country needs to go back to apprenticeships like electricians, machinist, masons, carpenters, auto mechanics and such.
You probably won't eat steak every night, but you wouldn't starve either.


Actually, that's the standard for the UK and other commonwealth countries if you want to be a solicitor (a lawyer who doesn't get to argue in court). They do something called "training contracts" after law school.  Its like a year or two with a firm or in-house legal dept, and normally you aren't paid a whole lot - but then again they dont have to worry about US student debt.  You actualy get out of your training period at generlly the same age Americans get out of law school.

In speaking with soliciters, they were pretty shocked that I could get out of law school at age 28 and be given a legal case or matter immediately without any supervision and even go to court to argue.   Of course that really doesnt happen unless you are really with a tiny firm or a solo, but the thought or possibility is unthinkable in the British system.


In Virginia you can sit on the bar exam without any law school.  You can do a "reader" program instead, which is basically a study under a current attorney.  To me, I don't understand why they don't specialize bar exams and only issue law licenses to practice in those specialty areas.  You don't need to know about tax, securities, or criminal laws to understand and practice IP law.  And when you do graduate and go practice, you only practice in one specialty at a time anyway.

The USPTO found out that law school is pretty much useless for new hires.  You are better off spending 3 months learning the fundamentals of the legal system and then 5 months getting up to speed on the law in your specialty area, than you are going to law school where you try to be a jack of all trades and learn just a little bit of every single practice area.  It's a complete waste of time and money learning about areas you will never practice in.  It's why we don't require law degrees for new hires. We already know that unless you're a currently-practicing-IP attorney, we're going to have to teach you all the IP law anyway.  I've got fresh-out-of-law-school lawyers reporting to me (I have no law degree) who don't even know who Bilski is.  Having a law degree without any IP experience doesn't mean much of anything to us.  We'd rather hire the engineer who has a couple years of engineering work under their belt than the guy who has an engineer degree and law degree but no engineering or IP experience.
 
2013-01-31 05:18:22 PM  

Cyberluddite: All a lawyer has to sell is her or her time.  So they're required to sell a lot of it. The focus of the partners at The Firm is not on the quality of a junior lawyer's work, but on the number of hours they manage to put on their timesheet.  40-hour work weeks are unheard of.  70-80 weeks are the norm, and are considered barely satisfactory by firm management.  Such luxuries as sleep, outside interests, handling personal or family issues, or raising children are seriously frowned upon.  People who engage in such frivolities will not have successful careers at The Firm, and will likely be tossed out at some point.


The problem is that partners got greedy in the 80s (surprise!) and severely leveraged their firms into much broader and deeper pyramids. Talk to any lawyer who started working in the 70s at a "big firm" and they'll tell you tales of 1400-1500 hour billing requirements and collegial workplaces when they were young lawyers. Sure, big-firm lawyers then made significantly less money than big firm lawyers today, but they had lives. Partnership tracks were only 5 years at top firms.

Today partnership tracks are 8 years (if you're lucky!) and even then you'll probably just get to be a non-equity partner. A piece of the pie will probably take you more like 12-15 years.

meantime, to keep the ever-growing number of partners fat and happy (and the growing numbers of retired partners that own equity shares paid--thanks baby boomers!), more and more associates need to bill (NY firms at this point require 2400 billable hours for associates) and fewer associates can make partner because this dilutes the top of the pyramid and requires even more leverage. And scared mid-level associates can't push work down because they need to make their hours and end up working 80-hour weeks easy. Plus blackberries and laptops make work essentially 24/7.

Ultimately, it's a machine that can't sustain the demographics and we saw lots of firms going through epic crashes back in 2008. On top of that, clients don't want to support this model any more where they essentially pay young dumb associates to apprentice. If they're going to spend $300+/hour, they want  experienced lawyers working on their matters.

/so glad i'm not doing this shiat any more. Academia FTW.
 
2013-01-31 05:19:04 PM  

Because People in power are Stupid: Theaetetus: Also, I've got no debt (wouldn't have gambled on changing careers if I didn't have a scholarship, and I worked full time through law school),

Not that anyone believes that you are a lawyer. In fact you have been known to cite legal "facts" which contradict reality. But now we are expected to believe that you are an engineer too. My dear, what law school did you go to, that let you take only night classes? What "engineering" firm would hire someone who is so blatantly counter-factual that can't admit when she is wrong?

It's not insulting that you constantly lie in your projection of yourself. It's insulting that you think that we would believe it.


I love the fact that you're still on this "anyone who isn't as misogynistic as me must be female" kick.
 
2013-01-31 05:23:35 PM  

nickerj1: The USPTO found out that law school is pretty much useless for new hires.


The downside, of course, is that legal arguments are lost on the Examiners and you have to go to the Appeals Board for anything complicated. And that's getting more annoying with some art groups who insist that if you amend your claims, you have to amend your figures to match, and that's adding new matter.
 
2013-01-31 05:24:21 PM  

moothemagiccow: zeroman987: This is not news. This was a problem for the class of 2009, even in top law schools. I graduted in 2011 from a top 25 law school and bounced around for a year after graduation before finding a stable job. Most of my friends did the same and some are looking for something better.

Sorry you got scammed. Only lawyers in the top 5, maybe 10 are finding jobs that require their skills as lawyers. Other schools are fudging graduate employment stats to continue to attract students.


I got lucky, the Federal Agency that i worked for prior to law school hired me on after I graduated. I had to sweat it out for a year though.
 
2013-01-31 05:25:11 PM  

keypusher: Hydra: Supes: Rex is right, it's almost solely based on the US News rankings. The top 14 schools (known as the T14) have stayed the same schools (only moving around within the top 14) for some obscene length of time, like 20 years or so.


RexTalionis: No, US News & World Reports actually puts out listings with law schools divided up into tiers every year.

I think the real question, in that case, is what is it to US News & World Report that makes a "top-tier" law school? I imagine it's a long list of mostly arbitrary variables that are largely self-reported (and subsequently fudged) by the schools in order to inflate their rankings in much the same way they do their university rankings, but what're some of the more important variables they look at? Am I going to get a vastly different experience if I take a constitutional law class at Harvard Law School vs. U of Chicago Law School vs. LSU Holy-Shiat-When-Did-We-Get-A-Law School?


The content of the course probably won't be very different, but your fellow students will be brighter and your job prospects will be much better if you're at Harvard or to a lesser extent Chicago.  Given how much law school costs...


Thanks - that was really the meat of my question.

I guess that's why anyone goes to anywhere in the Ivy League - easy name recognition, but you're not necessarily getting a better education than many places that happen to fall outside that top-15 bracket.
 
2013-01-31 05:32:03 PM  

Hydra: Thanks - that was really the meat of my question.

I guess that's why anyone goes to anywhere in the Ivy League - easy name recognition, but you're not necessarily getting a better education than many places that happen to fall outside that top-15 bracket.


That's how prestige works in most graduate/professional programs. Particularly grad school, where the quality of training is entirely subject to the whims of a given advisor.
 
2013-01-31 05:33:15 PM  

Theaetetus: nickerj1: The USPTO found out that law school is pretty much useless for new hires.

The downside, of course, is that legal arguments are lost on the Examiners and you have to go to the Appeals Board for anything complicated. And that's getting more annoying with some art groups who insist that if you amend your claims, you have to amend your figures to match, and that's adding new matter.


Moreover, there's more to law school than just reading cases...well, at my alma mater anyway.  On the other hand, I understand some of the more prestigious law schools don't fail their students if tuition is up to date.
 
2013-01-31 05:36:01 PM  
I realized i should have been positing in this Fark.com Lawyers thread, but i was too busy working . . .

Wait

Is Fark billable?  Why didnt anyone tell me!?

Also - if you like law, 10-12 hour days are not bad at all - i like this much more than my previous jobs.

/the 12+ hour days still suck ass tho.
 
2013-01-31 05:37:29 PM  

Theaetetus: The downside, of course, is that legal arguments are lost on the Examiners and you have to go to the Appeals Board for anything complicated. And that's getting more annoying with some art groups who insist that if you amend your claims, you have to amend your figures to match, and that's adding new matter


Hell, even the BPAI/PTAB blows it sometimes.  We had to take one application to the Fed Circuit to fix the screwups.  And we're pretty sure it wasn't the actual examiner that was constantly rejecting us, but the supervisory examiner who had basically determined that the application wasn't patentable no matter what, because at times it seemed like the examiner was working with us, we'd file an amendment as discussed, and then it would get rejected anyway.  And the interview we did on that case with both the examiner and supervisory examiner involved the supervisory examiner sitting there with his arms crossed and not a word out of him the entire time.  No questions, no response, zilch.
 
2013-01-31 05:38:17 PM  

Theaetetus: Because People in power are Stupid: Theaetetus: Also, I've got no debt (wouldn't have gambled on changing careers if I didn't have a scholarship, and I worked full time through law school),

Not that anyone believes that you are a lawyer. In fact you have been known to cite legal "facts" which contradict reality. But now we are expected to believe that you are an engineer too. My dear, what law school did you go to, that let you take only night classes? What "engineering" firm would hire someone who is so blatantly counter-factual that can't admit when she is wrong?

It's not insulting that you constantly lie in your projection of yourself. It's insulting that you think that we would believe it.

I love the fact that you're still on this "anyone who isn't as misogynistic as me must be female" kick.


Ms.  Θεαίτητος, I'm glad you are reaching for the low hanging fruit.Did you say as "proof" that you are a guy that you sat on your balls? Seriously, when does this ever happen? Unless these "balls", of course were created in:

a) Your imagination
b) By some cosmetic surgeon
c) Not there at all

I'm going with c)
 
2013-01-31 05:39:47 PM  

Teiritzamna: I realized i should have been positing in this Fark.com Lawyers thread, but i was too busy working . . .

Wait

Is Fark billable?  Why didnt anyone tell me!?

Also - if you like law, 10-12 hour days are not bad at all - i like this much more than my previous jobs.

/the 12+ hour days still suck ass tho.


You must be an attorney...all your lines were double-spaced.
 
2013-01-31 05:41:23 PM  

Hydra: keypusher: Hydra: Supes: Rex is right, it's almost solely based on the US News rankings. The top 14 schools (known as the T14) have stayed the same schools (only moving around within the top 14) for some obscene length of time, like 20 years or so.


RexTalionis: No, US News & World Reports actually puts out listings with law schools divided up into tiers every year.

I think the real question, in that case, is what is it to US News & World Report that makes a "top-tier" law school? I imagine it's a long list of mostly arbitrary variables that are largely self-reported (and subsequently fudged) by the schools in order to inflate their rankings in much the same way they do their university rankings, but what're some of the more important variables they look at? Am I going to get a vastly different experience if I take a constitutional law class at Harvard Law School vs. U of Chicago Law School vs. LSU Holy-Shiat-When-Did-We-Get-A-Law School?


The content of the course probably won't be very different, but your fellow students will be brighter and your job prospects will be much better if you're at Harvard or to a lesser extent Chicago.  Given how much law school costs...

Thanks - that was really the meat of my question.

I guess that's why anyone goes to anywhere in the Ivy League - easy name recognition, but you're not necessarily getting a better education than many places that happen to fall outside that top-15 bracket.


Well, that is not necessarily true. The reason that more prestigious jobs hire from those schools is not necessarily name recognition, but rather because of the quality of the education.  Any person can memorize the "law," but quite frankly that is not what lawyers do. A good law school will teach you how to understand the law so that you can learn the law you would like to practice in the real world and properly apply that law to novel situations.

I did not go to a T14 school, but my school was in the top 25, and that is what I learned.  In the various crummy legal jobs I worked before I got my current job, it was clear that I had a step up on most of my co-workers because I did not mechanically apply the legal principles in front of me as they did. In the legal profession memorization is a waste of time.  I attempted to get an understanding of the principles behind the law, so that I could properly apply it to novel situations. Speaking with my former co-workers, I learned that their classes consisted mostly of rote memorization.  If rote memorization were the path to becoming a lawyer, they would have had 3 years on the students at my school, and would have blown away our bar passage rate.  Yet, their schools did not.

However, I fully recognize that there may be selection bias in play - the smarter people go to the higher ranked schools because they are higher ranked, and as a result those school do better in terms of career placement, bar passage rate, and other objective measures of success.
 
2013-01-31 05:41:29 PM  

Because People in power are Stupid: Theaetetus: Because People in power are Stupid: Theaetetus: Also, I've got no debt (wouldn't have gambled on changing careers if I didn't have a scholarship, and I worked full time through law school),

Not that anyone believes that you are a lawyer. In fact you have been known to cite legal "facts" which contradict reality. But now we are expected to believe that you are an engineer too. My dear, what law school did you go to, that let you take only night classes? What "engineering" firm would hire someone who is so blatantly counter-factual that can't admit when she is wrong?

It's not insulting that you constantly lie in your projection of yourself. It's insulting that you think that we would believe it.

I love the fact that you're still on this "anyone who isn't as misogynistic as me must be female" kick.

Ms.  Θεαίτητος, I'm glad you are reaching for the low hanging fruit.Did you say as "proof" that you are a guy that you sat on your balls? Seriously, when does this ever happen? Unless these "balls", of course were created in:

a) Your imagination
b) By some cosmetic surgeon
c) Not there at all

I'm going with c)


Haven't you ever on a chair that has slightly spaced out planks?
 
2013-01-31 05:42:38 PM  

Because People in power are Stupid: It's not insulting that you constantly lie in your projection of yourself. It's insulting that you think that we would believe it.


Wow. He still replies to you after that? I got ignored for intimating that it strained credibility to me that an actual patent expert could somehow see every single press story about apple patent litigation and somehow see every one of them as justifiably being in apple's favor.
 
2013-01-31 05:49:18 PM  

JohnBigBootay: Because People in power are Stupid: It's not insulting that you constantly lie in your projection of yourself. It's insulting that you think that we would believe it.

Wow. He still replies to you after that? I got ignored for intimating that it strained credibility to me that an actual patent expert could somehow see every single press story about apple patent litigation and somehow see every one of them as justifiably being in apple's favor.


She likes engaging with me. Probably because I've often bragged about my huge penis.
 
2013-01-31 05:50:44 PM  

Macinfarker: Teiritzamna: I realized i should have been positing in this Fark.com Lawyers thread, but i was too busy working . . .

Wait

Is Fark billable?  Why didnt anyone tell me!?

Also - if you like law, 10-12 hour days are not bad at all - i like this much more than my previous jobs.

/the 12+ hour days still suck ass tho.

You must be an attorney...all your lines were double-spaced.


Yup.  Also, you know how you can tell I was on law review? I am somewhat ashamed that I didn't end my first line with a four dot ellipsis . . . .

/laaaaw neeerrrrrrddd!
 
2013-01-31 05:53:53 PM  

ProfessorOhki: Because People in power are Stupid: Theaetetus: Because People in power are Stupid: Theaetetus: Also, I've got no debt (wouldn't have gambled on changing careers if I didn't have a scholarship, and I worked full time through law school),

Not that anyone believes that you are a lawyer. In fact you have been known to cite legal "facts" which contradict reality. But now we are expected to believe that you are an engineer too. My dear, what law school did you go to, that let you take only night classes? What "engineering" firm would hire someone who is so blatantly counter-factual that can't admit when she is wrong?

It's not insulting that you constantly lie in your projection of yourself. It's insulting that you think that we would believe it.

I love the fact that you're still on this "anyone who isn't as misogynistic as me must be female" kick.

Ms.  Θεαίτητος, I'm glad you are reaching for the low hanging fruit.Did you say as "proof" that you are a guy that you sat on your balls? Seriously, when does this ever happen? Unless these "balls", of course were created in:

a) Your imagination
b) By some cosmetic surgeon
c) Not there at all

I'm going with c)

Haven't you ever on a chair that has slightly spaced out planks?


Or gotten into a car too quickly on a hot day in the summer? I think BPIPAS is basically admitting he has tiny balls.
 
2013-01-31 05:55:30 PM  

Theaetetus: ProfessorOhki: Because People in power are Stupid: Theaetetus: Because People in power are Stupid: Theaetetus: Also, I've got no debt (wouldn't have gambled on changing careers if I didn't have a scholarship, and I worked full time through law school),

Not that anyone believes that you are a lawyer. In fact you have been known to cite legal "facts" which contradict reality. But now we are expected to believe that you are an engineer too. My dear, what law school did you go to, that let you take only night classes? What "engineering" firm would hire someone who is so blatantly counter-factual that can't admit when she is wrong?

It's not insulting that you constantly lie in your projection of yourself. It's insulting that you think that we would believe it.

I love the fact that you're still on this "anyone who isn't as misogynistic as me must be female" kick.

Ms.  Θεαίτητος, I'm glad you are reaching for the low hanging fruit.Did you say as "proof" that you are a guy that you sat on your balls? Seriously, when does this ever happen? Unless these "balls", of course were created in:

a) Your imagination
b) By some cosmetic surgeon
c) Not there at all

I'm going with c)

Haven't you ever on a chair that has slightly spaced out planks?

Or gotten into a car too quickly on a hot day in the summer? I think BPIPAS is basically admitting he has tiny balls.


Again, when you made the statement -it wasn't summer. If you give me your number, I can message you images of my balls. I think that's why your mom blocked me on facebook.
 
2013-01-31 05:55:50 PM  

JohnBigBootay: Because People in power are Stupid: It's not insulting that you constantly lie in your projection of yourself. It's insulting that you think that we would believe it.

Wow. He still replies to you after that? I got ignored for intimating that it strained credibility to me that an actual patent expert could somehow see every single press story about apple patent litigation and somehow see every one of them as justifiably being in apple's favor.


Confirmation bias. You simply ignore the threads where I talk about Apple negatively, like the recent one on patent extension and possible anti-trust problems.
 
2013-01-31 05:57:05 PM  

Because People in power are Stupid: Theaetetus: ProfessorOhki: Because People in power are Stupid: Theaetetus: Because People in power are Stupid: Theaetetus: Also, I've got no debt (wouldn't have gambled on changing careers if I didn't have a scholarship, and I worked full time through law school),

Not that anyone believes that you are a lawyer. In fact you have been known to cite legal "facts" which contradict reality. But now we are expected to believe that you are an engineer too. My dear, what law school did you go to, that let you take only night classes? What "engineering" firm would hire someone who is so blatantly counter-factual that can't admit when she is wrong?

It's not insulting that you constantly lie in your projection of yourself. It's insulting that you think that we would believe it.

I love the fact that you're still on this "anyone who isn't as misogynistic as me must be female" kick.

Ms.  Θεαίτητος, I'm glad you are reaching for the low hanging fruit.Did you say as "proof" that you are a guy that you sat on your balls? Seriously, when does this ever happen? Unless these "balls", of course were created in:

a) Your imagination
b) By some cosmetic surgeon
c) Not there at all

I'm going with c)

Haven't you ever on a chair that has slightly spaced out planks?

Or gotten into a car too quickly on a hot day in the summer? I think BPIPAS is basically admitting he has tiny balls.

Again, when you made the statement -it wasn't summer. If you give me your number, I can message you images of my balls. I think that's why your mom blocked me on facebook.


... It would be really awful of me to give him a minor's phone number, wouldn't it? Preferably one across state lines so that we can be sure the feds get involved?
 
2013-01-31 06:00:06 PM  
The first rule of fark club is when you make it personal, you lose.
 
2013-01-31 06:02:12 PM  
Lawyering used to lucrative, when this was a rich country, and the hog was fat.   Now?  These new law grads are going to learn a brutal lesson in math:  33.3% of Zero = Zero.  The banksters, Wall St swindlers, CEOs and shysters who got to the trough before this new crop of parasites took it all.   Suckers.
 
2013-01-31 06:08:24 PM  
Republican politicians make money from private prison operators.

Democratic politicians make money from prison guard unions.

So there will always be jobs for public defenders.
 
2013-01-31 06:12:50 PM  

Anonymocoso: Republican politicians make money from private prison operators.

Democratic politicians make money from prison guard unions.

So there will always be jobs for public defenders.


Uh, about that...
 
2013-01-31 06:21:13 PM  

Weaver95: RexTalionis: I did law because working as a programmer/IT technician seems like soul-crushing work.

Anyway, is anyone interested in hiring an IT guy who knows his way around the law?

shiat - i'm STILL looking for a job.  the IT field is pretty thin right now.


Just an fyi, but the AV field is wide open and looking for people who know the ins and outs of IT.  It might be an option for you both.
 
2013-01-31 06:42:56 PM  
The real problem is too many people educated beyond their intelligence
 
2013-01-31 07:04:42 PM  

Snakeophelia: ConstitutionGuy: law school is like any other school - if you have no idea what you want to do when you get out and take BS courses (ex. women's studies, legal history, etc.), fart around and graduate in the bottom half of your class, it's a waste of time and money. If you want to do tax or IP and take a bunch of classes in your area and graduate in the top half, you'll do just fine. Also, get a good clerking job (Federal District court and above) and you really boost your chances (connections won't get you these clerkships - they may get you an interview but you better have a stellar transcript - also Fed judges will work you to death - mostly type A workaholics)

Also like any other school, in that you can't expect to walk out the door with a degree in hand and expect a fabulous job to come to you, even if you're top of the class in a valuable area.  I earned a PhD in a recession-proof field in 1998, and all my job interviews were between 400 and 900 miles from where I was going to school, because that's where the best jobs were in my field at that time.  I also had to be willing to start at the very bottom, responsibility- and pay-wise, because when everyone in your field has the same degree, you are not a special snowflake just for having that degree, no matter how good your school was (mine was great) or how good your advisor was (mine was excellent).

No, you are a newbie who needs to learn the real stuff now, and if that means moving 660 miles away and living in a one-bedroom apartment with no furniture for two years as you try to show that you deserve better than your initial lowball salary, you do that.  The idea that "degree=immediately fabulous life on my own terms" is a bizarre mindset, for any student or any degree, and now the jobs themselves are getting harder to find, it's downright suicidal.  Right now, graduate school should only be an option if you know what you want to do with it, you can do it quickly, you can get someone else to pay for it, and ...


I totally approve of this message.

/ex Semiconductor R&D engie
 
2013-01-31 07:05:00 PM  

WhippingBoy: "Can you imagine a world without lawyers?"

24.media.tumblr.com




You're allowed a representative.
That representative is selected from a lot of ten people.
This lot is selected from the community by lottery. (think jury duty pool)
Final ruling is applied to all in the publicly drawn lot.

Now who wants to be the lawyer?
 
2013-01-31 07:19:44 PM  

Theaetetus: Confirmation bias. You simply ignore the threads where I talk about Apple negatively, like the recent one on patent extension and possible anti-trust problems.


Wow. If it wasn't quarterly tax day, I'd go look it up.  I'm going to take your word for it, but it ain't confirmation bias - I've simply never seen you utter a negative word about aapl ( who is a historically magnificent company that has made many absurdly wonderful products and they are very deserving of their success ) and I've seen you discuss them plenty. Perhaps I've just been unlucky but if I'd seen it first hand I'd damn sure remember it because it would be noteworthy. From my perspective, on the order of Bevets saying, 'Richard Dawkins makes some damn good points.'
 
2013-01-31 07:29:27 PM  

Theaetetus: nickerj1: The USPTO found out that law school is pretty much useless for new hires.

The downside, of course, is that legal arguments are lost on the Examiners and you have to go to the Appeals Board for anything complicated. And that's getting more annoying with some art groups who insist that if you amend your claims, you have to amend your figures to match, and that's adding new matter.


You must be in that 30% reversal rate when appealing to BPAI or the 11% reversal rate when appealing BPAI to the CAFC.

Clearly the examiners are legal idiots if they're getting affirmed completely or in part 70% of the time.
Clearly the BPAI are legal idiots if they're getting affirmed completely or in part 89% of the time.
 
2013-01-31 07:34:09 PM  

Theaetetus: Because People in power are Stupid: Theaetetus: ProfessorOhki: Because People in power are Stupid: Theaetetus: Because People in power are Stupid: Theaetetus: Also, I've got no debt (wouldn't have gambled on changing careers if I didn't have a scholarship, and I worked full time through law school),

Not that anyone believes that you are a lawyer. In fact you have been known to cite legal "facts" which contradict reality. But now we are expected to believe that you are an engineer too. My dear, what law school did you go to, that let you take only night classes? What "engineering" firm would hire someone who is so blatantly counter-factual that can't admit when she is wrong?

It's not insulting that you constantly lie in your projection of yourself. It's insulting that you think that we would believe it.

I love the fact that you're still on this "anyone who isn't as misogynistic as me must be female" kick.

Ms.  Θεαίτητος, I'm glad you are reaching for the low hanging fruit.Did you say as "proof" that you are a guy that you sat on your balls? Seriously, when does this ever happen? Unless these "balls", of course were created in:

a) Your imagination
b) By some cosmetic surgeon
c) Not there at all

I'm going with c)

Haven't you ever on a chair that has slightly spaced out planks?

Or gotten into a car too quickly on a hot day in the summer? I think BPIPAS is basically admitting he has tiny balls.

Again, when you made the statement -it wasn't summer. If you give me your number, I can message you images of my balls. I think that's why your mom blocked me on facebook.

... It would be really awful of me to give him a minor's phone number, wouldn't it? Preferably one across state lines so that we can be sure the feds get involved?


Notice the part where I said I sent pictures to your mom. Here's a hint: I really didn't do that.
 
2013-01-31 07:37:32 PM  

nickerj1: Theaetetus: nickerj1: The USPTO found out that law school is pretty much useless for new hires.

The downside, of course, is that legal arguments are lost on the Examiners and you have to go to the Appeals Board for anything complicated. And that's getting more annoying with some art groups who insist that if you amend your claims, you have to amend your figures to match, and that's adding new matter.

You must be in that 30% reversal rate when appealing to BPAI or the 11% reversal rate when appealing BPAI to the CAFC.

Clearly the examiners are legal idiots if they're getting affirmed completely or in part 70% of the time.
Clearly the BPAI are legal idiots if they're getting affirmed completely or in part 89% of the time.


Note that it's not an even reversal rate across all art groups. Some get reversed much more than others, so I wouldn't rely on the averages. ;)
 
2013-01-31 07:38:07 PM  
Gald I am and IT/Networking student
 
2013-01-31 07:41:54 PM  
Thats one way to look at it.

Another way to look at it is that an overflow of lawyers means the cost of legal services should come down via competition.
 
2013-01-31 08:05:24 PM  

vernonFL: My sister hasn't even graduated law school yet and she already has a job with the local DAs office.


Going out with the DA's son, is she?
 
2013-01-31 08:06:32 PM  
The problem is never about the degree, it's about the person who has mono-vision about their future.

A long, long time ago, I did my MA on Beowulf (yes, in anglo-saxon, old norse and latin).  Within three weeks of graduation I landed a job as a magazine editor, then as a teacher, and finally for the last quarter century an economic development analyst.

My point is this - if you told me when I started my MA that I'd be knee-deep in spreadsheets and statistics, I'd have told you to have another drink.  But in hindsight, the key factors are a) recognizing opportunity when it knocks, and b) being flexible.
 
2013-01-31 08:09:54 PM  

Teiritzamna: I realized i should have been positing in this Fark.com Lawyers thread, but i was too busy working . . .

Wait

Is Fark billable?  Why didnt anyone tell me!?

Also - if you like law, 10-12 hour days are not bad at all - i like this much more than my previous jobs.

/the 12+ hour days still suck ass tho.


It's billable as "Client Development," obviously. Come'on now.
 
2013-01-31 08:27:30 PM  

ringersol: Because People in power are Stupid: "Why don't they just work in Intellectual Property where they can make money by stealing other people's ideas and patenting them? "

Patent lawyers tend to hold one or more engineering degrees.
And when you have one or more engineering degrees, well, you don't work at Starbucks much.


... and rarely get laid.  Well, rarely except for hideoids and paid staff.
 
2013-01-31 09:07:37 PM  

kxs401: Oh man, I just love these articles.

I kind of feel guilty every time I teach an LSAT prep class.


Kaplan?
 
2013-01-31 09:11:11 PM  

zeroman987: Hydra: keypusher: Hydra: Supes: Rex is right, it's almost solely based on the US News rankings. The top 14 schools (known as the T14) have stayed the same schools (only moving around within the top 14) for some obscene length of time, like 20 years or so.


RexTalionis: No, US News & World Reports actually puts out listings with law schools divided up into tiers every year.

I think the real question, in that case, is what is it to US News & World Report that makes a "top-tier" law school? I imagine it's a long list of mostly arbitrary variables that are largely self-reported (and subsequently fudged) by the schools in order to inflate their rankings in much the same way they do their university rankings, but what're some of the more important variables they look at? Am I going to get a vastly different experience if I take a constitutional law class at Harvard Law School vs. U of Chicago Law School vs. LSU Holy-Shiat-When-Did-We-Get-A-Law School?


The content of the course probably won't be very different, but your fellow students will be brighter and your job prospects will be much better if you're at Harvard or to a lesser extent Chicago.  Given how much law school costs...

Thanks - that was really the meat of my question.

I guess that's why anyone goes to anywhere in the Ivy League - easy name recognition, but you're not necessarily getting a better education than many places that happen to fall outside that top-15 bracket.

Well, that is not necessarily true. The reason that more prestigious jobs hire from those schools is not necessarily name recognition, but rather because of the quality of the education.  Any person can memorize the "law," but quite frankly that is not what lawyers do. A good law school will teach you how to understand the law so that you can learn the law you would like to practice in the real world and properly apply that law to novel situations.

I did not go to a T14 school, but my school was in the top 25, and that is what I learned. ...


I went to a T14 law school and the instruction ranged from good to mediocre to awful.  Hard to believe it some classes could have been worse at any law school.  Most schools, even low tier ones, have very bright faculty, some of whom can teach.

Big firms hire from top schools because they think the students are brighter than at other schools.  For the most part, that is true.
 
2013-01-31 09:16:30 PM  
keypusher: Big firms hire from top schools because they think the students are brighter than at other schools.  For the most part, that is true.

There's some of that thinking. There's also that the big firms have been hiring from the same top schools for years, so you get hiring partners preferring their alma maters, leading to an entrenched cadre from those schools. And finally, there's actually a legitimate reason, which is that because all of the big firms do this, the people who work at big firms  and go on to be general counsels at big companies all come from the same background and social class. And then those big firms work those connections to get big business - "weren't you at school with Jack? Wonderful! Shall I put you down for $1M in fees this quarter?"
 
2013-01-31 09:20:08 PM  

johnnyq: I spoke with Mrs Q, who is a partner in a large national firm, for any additions/caveats to the "Top 10 School or it's a waste" argument. She says: There are no set rules, but if you even want to get to the interview process for one of those $160k starting jobs at a big firm, then yes, coming from a top 10-20 school is a near must. You can also get an interview if you're from a respectable regional school (e.g. SMU for firms/offices here in Dallas). In either case, it's not good enough to have gone to one of those schools, you also need to be near the top of your class. There are always exceptions: nepotism, interesting background, connections, etc.
So, you did all that and aced the interview and got the job. You're reward (apart from what is, by any reasonable standard, a really good starting salary): 60-80 hour work weeks, competing to get work with other associates, needing to get on projects with all the different partners in whatever practice group you choose/have to settle for. Making the latter two difficult is the fact that, despite that JD with honors from a top 10 school, you're still essentially useless to the partners and higher level associates because you have no experience in the actual, real work they do and are probably just going to fark it up and make more work for them. They're just hoping you're bright and dedicated enough that you can eventually be of some use. Yep, congratulations, you've now entered a 10 year interview process (length varies depending on the firm, of course) lasting 60+ hours every week to see if you've got what it takes to be partner one day. If you're not being consistently staffed on things after your first few months to a year, well, then don't be surprised if one day so your group's head partner calls you in one day and lets you know that you might be better off seeking opportunities elsewhere. Again, congratulations!

/Mrs. Q likes her work, but there are hints she might retain some lingering bitterness about some of th ...


Sounds so much like trying to become a professor.

\not kidding
 
2013-01-31 10:10:05 PM  

borg: Mugato: Law school. Memorize a bunch of court case precedents and terminally boring laws and learn to argue like an asshole. Doesn't impress me. farking Bush managed to get a law degree, ffs. Sure there was nepotism involved but he still made it to class.

Bush II flunked out of Law School, his brothers/sisters have law degrees.  I think your best bet is to specialize in one small area of law and become an expert in that I have a friend who makes a comfortable living  just writing wills and trust  he only works about 25 hours a week.


Actually, it was Al Gore that flunked out of law school. Super serious.
 
2013-01-31 10:30:00 PM  

wedun: kxs401: Oh man, I just love these articles.

I kind of feel guilty every time I teach an LSAT prep class.

Kaplan?


The Princeton Review.
 
2013-01-31 10:34:34 PM  

kxs401: wedun: kxs401: Oh man, I just love these articles.

I kind of feel guilty every time I teach an LSAT prep class.

Kaplan?

The Princeton Review.


ah well.. my teacher never seemed like a farkette anyways.
 
2013-01-31 11:25:10 PM  

Koalaesq: In New Jersey, there is one attorney for every 108 people.


New York got to pick first.

/old Letterman joke
 
2013-01-31 11:34:52 PM  
The United States has 80 per cent of the world's lawyers and four per cent of the world's population. The Council on Foreign Relations once described this as a boat anchor on the US economy because so many people spend effort suing each other, removing dollars from economic investment and putting it into legal machinery.
 
2013-02-01 12:00:28 AM  

pute kisses like a man: Mitch Taylor's Bro: Grand_Moff_Joseph: Sucks for them, as it does for any new graduate looking for work.

That said though, the last thing we need is more freaking lawyers.  What we need are engineers and scientists.

This, but make sure the engineers understand that the old saying, "if you build a better mouse trap, the world will beat a path to your door,"...

or, it doesn't really matter, china will just steal the technology and make it for themselves.  (so, hire lawyers!)


They'll still need someone to translate it from Engrish to English ;-)
 
2013-02-01 02:31:04 AM  
It is impossible to understand job creation without understanding value creation and labor/overhead costs. People hire other people when their labor creates more value than it costs to hire them.When labor costs are high, the value created must also be high; it makes no sense to hire someone if doing so generates a loss.When labor is cheap, the bar of value creation is lowered, and so the risk of hiring a worker is also lower: they don't have to add much value to be worth their wage.This is why you see many low-value jobs in developing-world countries. There are night watchmen on duty in virtually every parking lot and building in urban Thailand, for example; these workers are providing a fundamental value, "eyes on the street," but it is a low-value proposition: no special skill is required other than being a light sleeper. The cost of their labor is equivalently low, but in a low-cost basis economy such as Thailand's, a very low wage is still a living wage.
In a self-employment example, many vendors in urban Thailand set up their informal food stall (a cart or a tent) for a few hours a day. Their net income is low, because what they provide--readymade food and snacks--is available in abundance, i.e. there are many competitors.Nonetheless, because the cost basis of life is relatively low, modest earnings from a low cost, low-profit enterprise make the enterprise worthwhile.
Compare that with the typical government job in the U.S. or Europe. It is difficult to measure the true cost of government pension costs, as local governments do their best to mask their pension costs and inflate their pension funds' projected returns. But a back-of-the-envelope calculation yields about a 100% direct labor overhead cost for the typical government job with full healthcare, pension and vacation benefits. So an employee earning $50,000 a year costs $100,000 in total compensation expenses.
Many local government employees on the left and right coasts earn close to $100,000, so their total compensation costs are roughly $200,000 per worker.
How much value must be created by each employee to justify that compensation? Government needn't bother itself with that calculation, as the compensation is not set by market forces and the revenue stream can be increased via higher taxes, junk fees, tuition, licences, permits, etc.As the legacy costs of healthcare and pensions for retirees become due, local government operating budgets are being gutted to pay these ballooning legacy costs.
As a result, it is now impossible for many local municipalities to fill potholes: it makes no sense to have $100,000/year employees performing low-value work like filling potholes. Put another way, there is a labor shortage in high-overhead government bureaucracies because after paying for legacy pension costs, there is no money left to hire more people at $100,000 a year in total compensation to fill potholes, a job that might be worth $35,000 in total compensation.
The value created by government employees filling potholes is completely out of alignment with the cost of their wages/benefits. If employees cost $100,000 (recall that their annual earnings may be $50,000--we must always use total compensation, not wages as reflected on pay stubs), then in effect all work that generates less than $100,000 in value can no longer be done.
This is why cities and infrastructure are falling apart. Once you raise the cost of compensation far above the value being created by the labor, then most lower-value but nonetheless essential work (e.g. filling potholes) becomes unaffordable to accomplish.
We can understand this dynamic very clearly in a private-sector example. Let's say a high-tech start-up pays its programmers $90,000 a year, with minimal benefits. The total compensation costs of each programmer are thus around $125,000 annually.
Now let's say that the owners are very egalitarian and they pay everyone they hire $90,000 a year ($125,000 in total compensation costs) regardless of their skills or how much value their labor creates. Does it make sense to pay someone $125,000 a year to empty the trash cans in the office? No, it does not. So the trash doesn't get emptied. Does it make sense to have a $125K/year worker being a go-fer, typing correspondence and making copies? No, it does not.
Those menial tasks are pushed down to the programmers and managers, who must do those tasks themselves on a need-only basis.
The new hire is expected to create $200,000 of value annually (the minimum output of value needed to keep the company afloat) or they must be let go, or the firm will lose so much money it goes belly-up.
Now let's say that the local minimum wage law sets the minimum total compensation costs of any employee at $40,000 annually. For example, $25,000 in wages and $15,000 in direct labor overhead (healthcare, disability, workers comp, vacation, 401K pension contributions, etc.)
What is the value created by an administrative assistant who makes copies and empties the trash cans? Let's say the value added is $20,000 a year. At $40,000 per year minimum cost, it makes no sense to hire a "low-cost" worker because the value created by that worker is not even close to their total compensation costs.
As a result, the job of administrative assistant is not just unfilled--it vanishes. It makes no sense to hire workers when the value they create is less than their compensation costs.How do we measure value created? The most accurate way is to let the market discover the value of the work performed by raising the price of our goods and services to reflect the value added.
Does our product or service become more valuable if the trash in our office is emptied? No; so the trash is not emptied, as the labor cost only raises the cost-basis and lowers gross profit, thus increasing the risk of insolvency.
The same can be said of all sorts of overhead: from healthcare costs that rise far faster than the company's revenues, expansive offices, higher junk fees and taxes, higher energy costs, and so on.
In a global economy, the value added by labor is measured on a global scale. As the overhead costs of healthcare, energy, office rent, local government junk fees, etc. keep rising, each worker in the company must produce more value just for the firm to generate enough gross margins to pay overhead costs and stay solvent.
If overhead costs--the cost-basis of doing business in the U.S.--keep rising faster than gross profits (out of which overhead is paid), then the owners have little choice: they can either close the business before they are personally bankrupted, cut everyone's pay or lay off some employees and somehow raise the productivity of the remaining workers to maintain enough value creation to survive.
This is the U.S. economy in a nutshell. If we understand the simple dynamics of value creation, total compensation costs and the cost-basis of doing business (general overhead), then we understand why employment isn't coming back in the U.S.
 
2013-02-01 05:33:54 AM  

rumpelstiltskin: I know they won't give you your money back if you go to law school but don't get a job as a lawyer, but what about your soul? Do they at least return that?


No Lucifer has a no backsies policy.
 
2013-02-01 08:09:40 AM  

Dadoody: It is impossible to understand job creation without understanding value creation and labor/overhead costs.


What was your major in school? Plagiarism ?
 
2013-02-01 08:25:37 AM  

Cyberluddite: There are other reasons why I don't recommend it. These are just a few of the bigger ones..


Thank you for reminding me why I stayed with my employer an went with an alternate career path. I found a career where my JD is required but I rarely break 40 hours a week (I also lucked in that I came out with few loans due to employer reimbursement). I may not have much money (my wife, also an attorney makes about 25% more than me) but I have time, I am able to work from home often and care for our children (they're school aged so it is more getting them off to school and dealing with after school activities).

I'm at an age now where we have friends with high school age and college age children who are interested in law and have asked me for career advice. I basically tell them that unless they have a real passion, don't go unless you can get scholarships. Financially, it won't be worth it. And if you want to go into law to help people, try to find a job that doesn't require such a huge financial cost at the start.
 
2013-02-01 01:24:50 PM  

RexTalionis: I did law because working as a programmer/IT technician seems like soul-crushing work.

Anyway, is anyone interested in hiring an IT guy who knows his way around the law?


You could probably do well working IT for a law firm, or going into patent law.
 
2013-02-01 01:29:08 PM  

DrPainMD: Law school grads have had a hard time getting jobs for decades. How do you think that they can charge $500 per hour if they let everybody in the club? Lawyers understand supply and demand, and how to restrict supply. They also pay big bribes campaign contributions to legislators to increase demand.


Not really.

My understanding is the American Bar Association signed off on outsourcing a lot of grunt legal work to India.

A lot of what used to be bread and butter insurance work, like document review, is now done dirt cheap, and "overseen" by a much smaller fraction of lawyers here in the U.S.
 
2013-02-01 01:32:18 PM  

trotsky: Cyberluddite: Rincewind53: Not me, I'm pretty and special and will graduate with money just raining down on me like some sort of cash bukkake.

As a lawyer myself, I've tried to talk many youngsters out of going to law school and becoming lawyers (including in TFD some advice threads over the years) , with tales of horrible working conditions, long hours, shiatty pay, poor job prospects, and widespread career dissatisfaction among most of my colleagues.  It always falls on deaf ears, and your sarcastic comment above is not too far off from what they actually say and seem to believe.  Unless I happen to talk to them a few years later, when I typically hear the "You were right--I wish I'd listened then" sort of comments.

I advise for pre-Law students and this man speaks the truth. I make them read a few articles on how bad prospects are. How going to a low-ranked law school is a waste of money unless they're going into the family practice. Hell, anything outside the top 15 or so is a waste.

I had the dean of the State law School here last year. He said the exact same thing you did. I loved him, because he didn't bullshiat the students.


Mostly agree.

Although, here in Mass, Suffolk, one of the "lower" tier schools, probably has the best in-state connections.  Did a simple possession case a few years back, and the judge, prosecutor, defense attorneys, and even a couple of the  cops were all Suffolk guys.
 
2013-02-01 01:41:04 PM  

Koalaesq: fawlty: Koalaesq: Yes, that's what women and minorities always have it so easy and are equity partners in all the big law firms.

Don't be foolish.  I did not say "historically."  I meant NOW and you know it.  The problem you mention is WHY the firms are responding the way they are.  And no, they aren't just handing out partnerships to new grads willy nilly.  You have to put in time for that.  But the odds of getting that first good job and paycheck are better if you meet the criteria I mentioned above.

No, I do not know it, I categorically dispute it. There might be some idiot partner out there who's floored by a big pair of tits, or some huge firm that'll hire a minority to look good, but to say that it increases the odds for women and minorities to any degree is an absolute fallacy. Women and minorities are still shunted to the side, by and large, and law is STILL a good ol' boys club. Maybe you don't see it, but I do.


What I see is a bit of the "old boys club", except a lot of the old boys are being put out to pasture, and not replaced.

The savvy ones left WILL hire a woman or minority...but only if he/she is the best applicant.

They can afford to be picky...indeed, they often HAVE to be picky.

Most can't afford to hire a newbie just because you golfed with his dad in Bermuda...
 
2013-02-01 07:50:47 PM  

ManofPeas: borg: Mugato: Law school. Memorize a bunch of court case precedents and terminally boring laws and learn to argue like an asshole. Doesn't impress me. farking Bush managed to get a law degree, ffs. Sure there was nepotism involved but he still made it to class.

Bush II flunked out of Law School, his brothers/sisters have law degrees.  I think your best bet is to specialize in one small area of law and become an expert in that I have a friend who makes a comfortable living  just writing wills and trust  he only works about 25 hours a week.

Actually, it was Al Gore that flunked out of law school. Super serious.


My boss went to law school with him.  Most people wish they could flunk out of law school and fall into being a member of the US House of Representatives.

//He could have gone back, but why when he was going to be a US Senator win/lose/draw?
 
2013-02-02 06:13:47 PM  

Mitch Taylor's Bro: This, but make sure the engineers understand that the old saying, "if you build a better mouse trap, the world will beat a path to your door," has never worked because the world needs to know why your mouse trap is better...and that's why you need us marketing and advertising hacks.


HA HA HA. You guys dole out the better mousetrap line every farking day. You're the boy who cried wolf. No one's going to know when the world-changing device actually arrives.
 
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