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(Pravda)   Sadistic methods of raising children all the rage in US   (english.pravda.ru) divider line 117
    More: Interesting, United States, perfectly normal space, children's rights, foster children, child psychology, Child and family services  
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14592 clicks; posted to Main » on 31 Jan 2013 at 7:55 AM (2 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-01-31 01:11:42 PM  

StandsWithAFist: Dreyelle: I'm good with this. Would-be parents in the US should look for children in the US. There are plenty available. Oh wait, I forgot, they aren't all non-black.

I'm going to go out on a limb here & assume you've never tried to adopt a child in the US. Let me just give you a quick rundown of some of the pitfalls Mr. SWAF & I encountered when we looked into it years ago:

- open adoptions where the birth mother can change her mind & regain custody;
- birth *grandparents* who stalk the adoptive family because they're upset their daughter gave "their blood" away;
- adoptions where the birth father (if he finds out years after the fact that he did indeed father a child) can get visitation rights;
- adoptions where one or both birth parents actively look to get their child back (via parental kidnapping) because the courts forcibly terminated their rights & they're p*issed off;
- adoptive kids with such severe physical & psychological problems that at least one prospective adoptive parent would have to quit their job to become a lifelong, 24/7 caregiver;
- adoption agency personnel who actively discourage white couples from adopting non-white babies so the children can "retain their cultural identity";
- exorbitant fees charged by some agencies (most are which are non-refundable even if the adoption doesn't go through);
- the US legal process which takes 2-3x as long as a foreign adoption;
- adoptive kids who can't get access to their own friggin' medical records due to confidentiality laws re: the birth mother.

Godspeed to those couples who decide to go through with it, but It's not hard to see why some people wouldn't.


This, this THIS.

My wife and I looked into it as well, as we had enough money for IVF or adoption, but not both.  We went the IVF route and that worked.  Otherwise, we were looking at going to Russia as they had young kids with relatively low issues.  The risks and pitfalls of domestic adoption were just too great, both were about the same cost and process time (this was 2 years ago).

/all children from orphanages have issues, the older they are the more ingrained they are and the longer it takes them to bond with you
//this stupid crap the people in TFA pulled is not how you do that
 
2013-01-31 01:15:20 PM  

rolladuck: Dreyelle: I'm good with this. Would-be parents in the US should look for children in the US. There are plenty available. Oh wait, I forgot, they aren't all non-black.

I agree with your first two sentences.  However, when I was starting the adoption process, the first place my wife and I visited had one of its workers (a black lady) counsel us (white people) on why it was morally abhorrent for us to ever consider adopting a black baby.  And she used "abhorrent" in that southern baptist preacher tone that Obama always slips into whenever he's speaking before an all- or mostly-black audience.

We were instructed that if we couldn't find a white baby (with no uncertainty that any white children would be meth- or crack-babies) that we should adopt a Mexican.

We got out of that place fast--they did not get a return phone call.


A friend of mine had to fight it out in court to adopt their son as the state said a black child should not be adopted by a white family.
 
2013-01-31 02:35:56 PM  
I'm sorry I'm so late in this thread but I still have to say that any adoptive parent who waits until the teen years or later is an idiot. Let the child know that he/she was chosen as soon as they can.
 
2013-01-31 02:45:32 PM  

dr.zaeus: I was talking about the parents ability to handle the issue, really.  I know that kids can adapt, but the benefits of not having to have "that talk" with a kid until later in life (if ever) are probably an attractive thing to consider for a parent.


'No, we don't have the same skin color, because you're adopted. Adopted is a word for when a family is made up of love instead of blood. We're always family and I will always be your mommy\daddy, because I love you, and families are about love.' Answer follow-up questions as needed depending on age.

And that is honestly no more difficult than explaining why the sky is blue.
 
2013-01-31 02:59:26 PM  
Both my grandmothers were orphans, but they had very different stories about it.

My paternal grandmother was one of 13 children. Her father worked on oil rigs and was killed at work one day when she was four. Her mother took up with another man (one would assume out of necessity), who didn't want all those children around. The older ones, mostly boys, just took off riding the rails. My grandmother was sent to an Indian family who were family friends. My grandmother loved them and loved living there, she was close enough to still visit with her younger siblings who were still at home. Apparently the state got wind of her placement after a couple of years and took her out of the home because "Indians can't be allowed to raise whites." They put her in an orphanage where she stayed until she was 17 and able to "take care" of herself. She eventually found all but 1 of her siblings, when she was in her late sixties and there were newspaper accounts of the reunion. She always said she loved her Indian caregivers and would have stayed with them if it had been her choice. The orphanage was *not* a fun place to be.

My maternal grandmother was born in Italy and came over at age two with her parents who soon died, she said, of overwork in sweatshops, where she was destined to work, too, once she got old enough. She was immediately placed in an orphanage where she remained her whole childhood. She ended up taking care of thirty or forty younger children and was basically an unpaid matron from about age 10 until she finally left on her own when she was 18. The orphanage was *not* a fun place to be.

So one never had a chance to be adopted and never got to experience a normal home life, the other was adopted, did have loving foster parents, and was taken away from them due to racism, suffering the loss of two sets of parents. Both said that orphanages are no place to grow up.

My parents, after I was born and my mother couldn't have more children, tried to adopt a little boy in Germany when we were stationed there. They tried for over a year. We went to the orphanage weekly, bringing presents and visiting, taking him out for day trips, etc., and they were ultimately turned down by the orphanage because my father couldn't promise we would be staying in Germany for at least five years after the adoption. He wasn't in charge of when and where we would be stationed next. My mother cried for weeks. My childish impression of the orphanage was a nightmare. It was clean, well run, good food (we ate there for that very reason, to check out the food), etc., but the fact that any toy we gave to my prospective little brother was immediately snatched away and played with to destruction by the other kids made it seem like my worse nightmare as an only child.

Putting up any kind of barriers to adoption that don't involve the *actual fitness* of the prospective adoptive parents are stupid because orphanages are not good (they are just better than the streets).
 
2013-01-31 03:04:14 PM  

PsiChick: dr.zaeus: I was talking about the parents ability to handle the issue, really.  I know that kids can adapt, but the benefits of not having to have "that talk" with a kid until later in life (if ever) are probably an attractive thing to consider for a parent.

'No, we don't have the same skin color, because you're adopted. Adopted is a word for when a family is made up of love instead of blood. We're always family and I will always be your mommy\daddy, because I love you, and families are about love.' Answer follow-up questions as needed depending on age.

And that is honestly no more difficult than explaining why the sky is blue.


I wasn't really saying the explanation was hard to come up with in theory or word correctly for a child to understand; any caring parent should be able to communicate sensitively the nature of life's harsh realities. However, you have to admit that it is considerably more difficult emotionally to explain something like this than teaching a kid about the color of the sky.

I could be wrong, but I assume that it's probably an understandable truth of human nature for a lot of parents to want to avoid difficult discussions like this, even when they are between themselves and someone (their child) that they care about greatly.
 
2013-01-31 03:12:18 PM  

perigee: [encrypted-tbn1.gstatic.com image 225x225]
"Adop me, muthafuka."


I will love him and hold him and stroke him and squeeze him and call him George.
 
2013-01-31 03:16:12 PM  

dr.zaeus: PsiChick: dr.zaeus: I was talking about the parents ability to handle the issue, really.  I know that kids can adapt, but the benefits of not having to have "that talk" with a kid until later in life (if ever) are probably an attractive thing to consider for a parent.

'No, we don't have the same skin color, because you're adopted. Adopted is a word for when a family is made up of love instead of blood. We're always family and I will always be your mommy\daddy, because I love you, and families are about love.' Answer follow-up questions as needed depending on age.

And that is honestly no more difficult than explaining why the sky is blue.

I wasn't really saying the explanation was hard to come up with in theory or word correctly for a child to understand; any caring parent should be able to communicate sensitively the nature of life's harsh realities. However, you have to admit that it is considerably more difficult emotionally to explain something like this than teaching a kid about the color of the sky.

I could be wrong, but I assume that it's probably an understandable truth of human nature for a lot of parents to want to avoid difficult discussions like this, even when they are between themselves and someone (their child) that they care about greatly.


I've said this before and I'll say it again: When you're parenting, it's about the kid, not you. It's hard to get up at three AM to cuddle a nightmare-having toddler, too, but you put on your big boy\girl pants and do it, because  that's what you signed up for. It does  far more harm to the kid to suddenly find out at eighteen that they're adopted--or, worse, for them to figure it out--than for the kid to grow up knowing that they're adopted and it's not a big deal.
 
2013-01-31 03:28:48 PM  

dr.zaeus: PsiChick: dr.zaeus: I was talking about the parents ability to handle the issue, really.  I know that kids can adapt, but the benefits of not having to have "that talk" with a kid until later in life (if ever) are probably an attractive thing to consider for a parent.

'No, we don't have the same skin color, because you're adopted. Adopted is a word for when a family is made up of love instead of blood. We're always family and I will always be your mommy\daddy, because I love you, and families are about love.' Answer follow-up questions as needed depending on age.

And that is honestly no more difficult than explaining why the sky is blue.

I wasn't really saying the explanation was hard to come up with in theory or word correctly for a child to understand; any caring parent should be able to communicate sensitively the nature of life's harsh realities. However, you have to admit that it is considerably more difficult emotionally to explain something like this than teaching a kid about the color of the sky.

I could be wrong, but I assume that it's probably an understandable truth of human nature for a lot of parents to want to avoid difficult discussions like this, even when they are between themselves and someone (their child) that they care about greatly.


Ok, I'll be the one to tell you that you're wrong.  The discussion isn't hard at all- you need to be honest with them from day 1.  My kids both have pictures of their birthmothers in their rooms.  They understand they were adopted, and they know some of the details of the process (the ones that are appropriate for their ages)

The key is that they don't see it as abnormal.  Yes, they are adopted.  Yes, they don't look like us.  But families everywhere aren't "normal".  One of their cousins is Guatemalan.  The family two down from us adopted two kids from family services.  My younger son plays with a kid who has two mommies, and got called to the principal's office today for fighting with one being raised by his grandparents.

It was a lot more awkward having the "birds and bees" talk with the younger a few months back.  He wanted to know if I'd had sex with his birthmommy...
 
2013-01-31 03:45:53 PM  

The One True TheDavid: dr.zaeus: The One True TheDavid:

[...]There are some innate characteristics of form, function and temperament. Racism is none of the above, and has to be taught early and often in order to form a large and significant part of the personality.

I was talking about the parents ability to handle the issue, really.  I know that kids can adapt, but the benefits of not having to have "that talk" with a kid until later in life (if ever) are probably an attractive thing to consider for a parent.

Should people so racist and cowardly be allowed to rear kids?


Not so fun fact: this also works with step-parents. Non-biological children get harsher punishment and less attention (on average) than biological children. Why? because there is less of a connection. Now try substituting the white child with an adopted black child. Not only is there still the lack of biological connection but this time it's even worse because the child and the parent don't even look like they could be related. Sure, in most (?) cases things work out just fine, but considering the information that was just imparted, do you still think it is racist to (subconsciously) prefer a child that looks like you? After all, it's not something based on race per se.

/Cinderella was based on a true story
//Got my bachelors in psychology, can't link to stuff mentioned during lectures
 
2013-01-31 05:55:39 PM  
Eh, this is Putin propaganda for his dumb 'Americans can't adopt Russian kids' law, which isn't very popular.

Some of it could even be true, but it's a) Pravda, b) Putin. It's like reading an NRA or Al Sharpton press release.
 
2013-01-31 06:45:47 PM  
Russian Businessman testifies against Russian mafia, Russian Businessman dies in Russian prison, US addopts (ha ha) Magnitsky Law, Russia discovers that American parents are evil. The Putinists!
 
2013-01-31 06:53:58 PM  

dr.zaeus: PsiChick: dr.zaeus: I was talking about the parents ability to handle the issue, really.  I know that kids can adapt, but the benefits of not having to have "that talk" with a kid until later in life (if ever) are probably an attractive thing to consider for a parent.

'No, we don't have the same skin color, because you're adopted. Adopted is a word for when a family is made up of love instead of blood. We're always family and I will always be your mommy\daddy, because I love you, and families are about love.' Answer follow-up questions as needed depending on age.

And that is honestly no more difficult than explaining why the sky is blue.

I wasn't really saying the explanation was hard to come up with in theory or word correctly for a child to understand; any caring parent should be able to communicate sensitively the nature of life's harsh realities. However, you have to admit that it is considerably more difficult emotionally to explain something like this than teaching a kid about the color of the sky.

I could be wrong, but I assume that it's probably an understandable truth of human nature for a lot of parents to want to avoid difficult discussions like this, even when they are between themselves and someone (their child) that they care about greatly.


It's easier to tell a kid from the start, "Hey, guess what?  We're a family of choice not chance.  Yeah, us!  And even better, guess what else?  You get two parties every year.  Every body has birthdays, so what.  You get Happy Homecoming, or Happy Adoption or Glad We Gotcha!  Hooray!"  That's a lot easier than trying to remember the coverup, and who's in the loop and who's not.

 Go Loganville
 
2013-01-31 08:57:29 PM  
Pravda
 
2013-01-31 10:49:23 PM  
Well, for one, the Pravda in question (as someone noted) is pretty much the Russian version of, oh, The Onion or the Weekly World News.

That said, there's a whole mess of issues with international adoption, and on BOTH sides:

a) International adoption, particularly through international "baby mill" agencies, has become a very attractive option to parents who aren't able to adopt in the US--sometimes for legit reasons (a lot of states won't adopt to older families or to same-sex partners), sometimes...because adoption agencies would rule them unfit in the US due to severe disciplinary practices, etc.

b) Almost all of the international "baby mill" groups have engaged in a LOT of skeevy behaviours including:

1) Not disclosing to parents that almost all international adoptions are what would be termed "Wednesday's Child Adoptions" in the US--that is, adoption of special-needs kids who are otherwise unadoptable.  Probably the luckiest one gets with this is China (where female babies are considered essentially "Wednesday's Child" adoptions due to not being as preferred as male babies)--in most other cases, though, it's going to be older kids (who often have socialisation issues of some type or another) or severe disabilities (usually intellectual and/or psychiatric disabilities, sometimes physical disabilities too, FAS is especially common in the ex-Warsaw Pact).

2) Often being caught in adopting out children who had living parents whose custodial rights had NOT been terminated (and taking advantage of the fact that in many developing countries children can be turned over to an orphanage temporarily as a rough equivalent of the foster-care system that exists in the US and having often-illiterate parents unknowingly signing over custody to an orphanage in a language they don't speak--and that's assuming babies and children aren't stolen outright from the streets, which has happened to fuel the international baby mill industry).  Guatemala actually got its entire international adoption program shut down over a major case of just this happening (and this has resulted in a major international custody crisis potentially involving thousands of kids adopted out from Guatemala dating from the 70s onward), Vietnam and Cambodia and Ethiopia are shutting down their international adoption programs over cases of kids being illicitly "adopted out" without parental rights being properly terminated, and there have even been incidents in China of babies and children being literally stolen and/or sold to international baby mills.

3) It has actually been insinuated in some cases that ethnic minorities have been targeted in some cases--partly because they don't speak the primary language of the country whose adoption laws are being used, but (and again, this comes up particularly with the Guatemalan and Ethiopian "baby mill" situations); in some cases it's also been alleged these groups have been targeted by the governments of these countries as a sort of ethnic cleansing.  (The best evidence of the latter would be with the Guatemalan and Ethiopian baby-mill situations; almost all reports of illicit adoptions of Guatemalans have concerned kids of Mayan and other indigenous descent (who have been targeted for genocide in Guatemala in VERY recent history), and almost all the Ethiopian baby-mills have targeted ethnic minorities in Ethiopia who have been discriminated against in past by the Ethiopian government.)

Incidentially--almost identical abuses used to occur here in the US and Canada regarding women who were forced to give up custody if they gave birth in "maternity homes", kids being raised in poor conditions (and the sickly ones or the dark ones being outright killed off), kids in First Nations communities being outright adopted out to white families in order to "civilise" them.  In fact, the practice was so common up to the 60s that it earned a name--"baby farming".  It's specifically all those abuses that have directly led to stuff like parents being able to retain some custodial and/or visitation rights, long grace periods for turning over custody to the state or adoptive parents, restrictions in some cases on cross-cultural adoption (more notable with First Nations adoptions, because adopting out NDN kids WAS pretty explicitly done as a form of ethnic cleansing), etc.  It's also why the baby mills now pretty much either operate overseas (almost inevitably as "Christian adoption agencies" at that) or in the form of private "Christian adoption agencies" in the US who pretty much still do the "forced turnover of custody in the maternal home" stuff (using "pregnancy counseling centers" as the major intake for maternity homes nowadays) and refuse to adopt to anyone who isn't a full-blown dominionist (right down to interviews with ministers and agreements to explicitly exclusionary statements of faith that effectively ban conservative Catholics from adopting).
 
2013-02-01 01:47:22 AM  
Pravda - lozh, da v ney namjok.
 
2013-02-01 08:01:33 AM  

Glockenspiel Hero: dr.zaeus: PsiChick: dr.zaeus: I was talking about the parents ability to handle the issue, really.  I know that kids can adapt, but the benefits of not having to have "that talk" with a kid until later in life (if ever) are probably an attractive thing to consider for a parent.

'No, we don't have the same skin color, because you're adopted. Adopted is a word for when a family is made up of love instead of blood. We're always family and I will always be your mommy\daddy, because I love you, and families are about love.' Answer follow-up questions as needed depending on age.

And that is honestly no more difficult than explaining why the sky is blue.

I wasn't really saying the explanation was hard to come up with in theory or word correctly for a child to understand; any caring parent should be able to communicate sensitively the nature of life's harsh realities. However, you have to admit that it is considerably more difficult emotionally to explain something like this than teaching a kid about the color of the sky.

I could be wrong, but I assume that it's probably an understandable truth of human nature for a lot of parents to want to avoid difficult discussions like this, even when they are between themselves and someone (their child) that they care about greatly.

Ok, I'll be the one to tell you that you're wrong.  The discussion isn't hard at all- you need to be honest with them from day 1.  My kids both have pictures of their birthmothers in their rooms.  They understand they were adopted, and they know some of the details of the process (the ones that are appropriate for their ages)

The key is that they don't see it as abnormal.  Yes, they are adopted.  Yes, they don't look like us.  But families everywhere aren't "normal".  One of their cousins is Guatemalan.  The family two down from us adopted two kids from family services.  My younger son plays with a kid who has two mommies, and got called to the principal's office today for fighting with one being rai ...


C'mon everyone.  I'm obviously not saying that this is right, I'm just positing that it's probably common.  No judgment from me about the need to be honest with kids, it's a no-brainer that you would want to handle this kind of stuff early in a child's life.
 
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