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(NPR)   Looking for an income boost? Government program leads to $11,000 income boost for participants. Details in article   (npr.org) divider line 52
    More: Interesting, prison reform, Ohio University, income boost  
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16036 clicks; posted to Main » on 31 Jan 2013 at 8:11 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-01-31 07:12:46 AM  
Basically, you are spending a lot of time around other criminals, seasoned veterans who know the lay of the land, and they can teach you the mechanisms - ways to get away with crime."

If they had this knowledge then why are they in prison?
 
2013-01-31 07:34:21 AM  

miss diminutive: If they had this knowledge then why are they in prison?


They have a strong nurturing instinct and want to be in a setting where they can best reach a receptive audience.
 
2013-01-31 08:17:44 AM  
Only the stupid, inept, or unlucky get caught. So maybe they can learn something from the person who was unlucky...
 
2013-01-31 08:19:57 AM  
 
2013-01-31 08:22:57 AM  
do i get 3 square meals a day, free lodging, free cable, gym, etc..?

maybe you could sweeten the deal a little more?
 
2013-01-31 08:24:22 AM  
Until we have CORI reform, any time served is going to significantly limit your legal earnings potential, so the difference has to come from somewhere.
 
2013-01-31 08:26:30 AM  

miss diminutive: If they had this knowledge then why are they in prison?


This may surprise you, but people learn from their mistakes. Yes, even criminals... although what, precisely, they learn, is apparently up in the air.
 
2013-01-31 08:27:11 AM  
I don't understand the part about where the prisoner comes out. That's the problem. Why are they coming out? It's seems like there would be a more final solution to the problem.
 
2013-01-31 08:29:09 AM  
This isn't new. I've been grousing for years about our prison system - a system that takes criminals
and gives them a way to become better, stronger criminals. 3 at least semi-nutritious meals a day,
free housing, free medical care, cable, internet, physical fitness....

Yeah...take a rapist and stick him in prison where he can get even stronger. That'll learn him.

Of course, this is the same prison system that will lock you up for smoking a joint or for prostitution.

It's just dumb any way you look at it.

Anybody know - roughly - what the violent crime rate is in countries that have truly horrific prison
systems compared to the US?
 
2013-01-31 08:30:54 AM  
I don't know where you come down on the incarceration question, whether it's for rehabilitation or revenge, but I'm beginning to think revenge is the only argument makes any sense.
 
2013-01-31 08:31:03 AM  
when i was in college, they wanted us to do physics outreach at the local juve. i argued against it, saying that perhaps we shouldn't teach these guys science; it will only make them better at what they do!
 
2013-01-31 08:31:24 AM  

miss diminutive: Basically, you are spending a lot of time around other criminals, seasoned veterans who know the lay of the land, and they can teach you the mechanisms - ways to get away with crime."

If they had this knowledge then why are they in prison?


They got caught, so they can teach you what to do to avoid it.
 
2013-01-31 08:32:39 AM  

SevenizGud: I don't understand the part about where the prisoner comes out. That's the problem. Why are they coming out? It's seems like there would be a more final solution to the problem.


Because the entire criminal justice system is based on the premise that some criminals can be punished, and then rehabilitated into productive members of society. If no one can be helped, as you suggest, then we can close all the prisons and just execute everyone convicted of any crime.
 
2013-01-31 08:35:38 AM  

Pocket Ninja: miss diminutive: If they had this knowledge then why are they in prison?

They have a strong nurturing instinct and want to be in a setting where they can best reach a receptive audience.


Because they know how they got caught.  They pass that knowledge on and it's a highly concentrated source of information with all of those criminals packed into a small space.  "Don't drop your wallet at the scene."  "Don't write your holdup note on a deposit slip."  "Don't fall asleep in the house you're robbing."
 
2013-01-31 08:36:21 AM  

jtown: Pocket Ninja: miss diminutive: If they had this knowledge then why are they in prison?

They have a strong nurturing instinct and want to be in a setting where they can best reach a receptive audience.

Because they know how they got caught.  They pass that knowledge on and it's a highly concentrated source of information with all of those criminals packed into a small space.  "Don't drop your wallet at the scene."  "Don't write your holdup note on a deposit slip."  "Don't fall asleep in the house you're robbing."


Clicked "reply" on the wrong one.  Just pretend I replied to MD's post.
 
2013-01-31 08:39:38 AM  

arentevenwords: SevenizGud: I don't understand the part about where the prisoner comes out. That's the problem. Why are they coming out? It's seems like there would be a more final solution to the problem.

Because the entire criminal justice system is based on the premise that some criminals can be punished, and then rehabilitated into productive members of society. If no one can be helped, as you suggest, then we can close all the prisons and just execute everyone convicted of any crime.


Dude, he quoted Adolf Hitler and you responded back to him rationally. -1 for internet gullibility.
 
2013-01-31 08:43:02 AM  
This article does not help me one bit. Prison is my retirement plan, not the grown up version of Job Corps.

/only half joking
 
2013-01-31 08:44:43 AM  

TwistedFark: arentevenwords: SevenizGud: I don't understand the part about where the prisoner comes out. That's the problem. Why are they coming out? It's seems like there would be a more final solution to the problem.

Because the entire criminal justice system is based on the premise that some criminals can be punished, and then rehabilitated into productive members of society. If no one can be helped, as you suggest, then we can close all the prisons and just execute everyone convicted of any crime.

Dude, he quoted Adolf Hitler and you responded back to him rationally. -1 for internet gullibility.


I already got my Anti-Godwin Innoculation shot. Looks like it is working.
 
2013-01-31 08:46:03 AM  
At least they get some good out of prison because our judges are very devious, and use all sorts of techniques to prevent a victim from getting justice. Lots of judges issue gag orders, and bans on freedom of speech, to help prevent other people from finding out what is going on. Judges set up a trial in all sorts of ways, giving orders that all sorts of evidence be hidden from a jury, for example. The judge may declare, for example, that the evidence that proves you are innocent or right, will not be allowed at the trial.
Jury trials are actually very rare , unlike what you see in the movies. Most cases are settled through some deal or extortion or intimidation, before there is an actual trial. If there is a jury trial, they tend to stack the jury with un-educated idiots who will tend to believe whatever lies they are told by the judge and the government. If you are trying to fight a rich person in court, the judge might let the fancy lawyers for the rich person say anything they want, while he tells you to shut up as soon as you start talking. The judges have a thousand ways to rig a legal proceeding,
 
2013-01-31 08:47:33 AM  
Came in to say what Miss diminutive said. How do you learn to be better from idiots who got busted and booked? And why is it that our criminals get treated better than our veterans?
 
2013-01-31 08:47:35 AM  

James F. Campbell: people learn from their mistakes


That isn't the problem, specifically.
Its that people learn from the mistakes of others.

You go to prison, you meet lots of people who have committed lots of crimes.
Some they got away with and at least one that they didn't.
You can compare notes, make contacts, share tips of the trade.

/Its like a university for wrongdoing.
/A guy who wen't in for mugging might come out as a qualified knee breaker.
 
2013-01-31 08:48:55 AM  

miss diminutive: Basically, you are spending a lot of time around other criminals, seasoned veterans who know the lay of the land, and they can teach you the mechanisms - ways to get away with crime."

If they had this knowledge then why are they in prison?


Like the old saying goes, "those who can't do, teach"
 
2013-01-31 08:55:16 AM  

digitalrain: Anybody know - roughly - what the violent crime rate is in countries that have truly horrific prison
systems compared to the US?


Like Mexico?

My google-fu is weak right now and even if I could find a good source for stats, violent crime may be defined and reported differently.

So I'll just speculate.  Any prison south of the US is going to really suck and most of those countries can be pretty violent.  Well, except Belize which is one of the reasons John McAfee said he moved there.  Apparently only ex-pat wealthy American commit murder or poison dogs there.  Unless you believe McAfee and it's only the cops,

Europe is supposed to have cushy prisons and I don't think most of those countries have a ton of violent crime.

Of course, there are probably a lot of other factors that affect violent crime rates.

OTOH, I bet Best Korea has a low violent crime rate but they might be the worst country to go to prison in.
 
2013-01-31 08:56:56 AM  
Disturbing lack of the Obvious tag

Look for the comparison rates on recidivism between the US and other countries (Mexico, Turkey, Russia) and you will see that our prisons make people want to go back in after getting out.  3 hots and a cot, cable, exercise yards, etc.  It's better than they have when not in prison
 
2013-01-31 08:59:26 AM  
"When Crime Pays: Prison Can Teach Some To Be Better Criminals" um... headline speaks for itself, right? obvious tag?

/paid for by Carl's Jr.

//a particular individual in jail.
 
2013-01-31 09:04:01 AM  
Cheaper than college.
 
2013-01-31 09:05:38 AM  
Here's my problem with the prison system. Do the prisons give you a higher standard of living than the welfare system?  Then something's wrong.  And, while we're at it, does welfare give you a higher standard of living than actually working?  Then something's wrong.
 
2013-01-31 09:09:09 AM  

Buttle not Tuttle: I don't know where you come down on the incarceration question, whether it's for rehabilitation or revenge, but I'm beginning to think revenge is the only argument makes any sense.


I studied this many years ago, and recently had long discussions about it with other homeless people, many of whom have served hard time for hard crimes (our best friends now are a woman who has been in and out of jail and rehab for dealing and drug use, and her "street protector," a one-time gang enforcer who did time in prison for home invasion and attempted murder. Nice guy, though. Seriously. You just have to understand the environment he grew up in. He's smart enough to have learned the social lessons.

There are five theories of punishment:  1) rehabilitation (social conditioning), 2) negative reinforcement, 3) civil isolation, 4) revenge, and 5) symbolic social vengeance.

Rehabilitation does work, but only in a cases where the prisoner is smarter than the average bear, WANTS to change, and the prison system is sympathetic to ethical / practical education, and skills training.

Negative reinforcement simply means to make the incarceration so horrific that an ex-prisoner would rather do anything legal rather than risk going back to prison. The risk is the unintended consequences. To cope with the environment, the prisoner may simply be driven insane/sociopathic. This theory is IMHO a non-starter.

Civil isolation means just keeping them away from everyone else in society. This, IMO, is a valid reason for prisons, particularly for "non-curables" such as pedophiles. Lock 'em away, make them moderately comfortable and safe from each other, and keep them there forever.

Revenge is actually not relevant. revenge is a PRIVATE concept. McCoys -vs- Hatfields kind of thing. What is really meant is "symbolic social vengeance."

Symbolic social vengeance simply means: "We, civilized society, decide to punish this person who has wronged you so that you do not have to take it upon yourself to do so. Symbolic social vengeance is a substitute for private revenge and it's purpose is simply to prevent the upheaval and chaos caused by generational private feuds.

Prisons, IMO, in increasing order of importance, should be about civil isolation, rehabilitation, and symbolic social vengeance .
 
2013-01-31 09:10:11 AM  

Wodan11: Here's my problem with the prison system. Do the prisons give you a higher standard of living than the welfare system? Then something's wrong. And, while we're at it, does welfare give you a higher standard of living than actually working? Then something's wrong.


the answer in both cases is clearly "no"...
 
2013-01-31 09:11:17 AM  
I"m not an ex-con so I'm not qualified to speak on this.
 
2013-01-31 09:16:35 AM  

arentevenwords: SevenizGud: I don't understand the part about where the prisoner comes out. That's the problem. Why are they coming out? It's seems like there would be a more final solution to the problem.

Because the entire criminal justice system is based on the premise that some criminals can be punished, and then rehabilitated into productive members of society. If no one can be helped, as you suggest, then we can close all the prisons and just execute everyone convicted of any crime.


The problem with executions is that they are irrevocable if a mistake is made. (But we know that government never screws up, right?)
 
2013-01-31 09:18:34 AM  
Our prison system is kind of screwed because it's two-faced(like the nation).  We punish people by putting them in there for years and years and years and letting the gangs run the asylum, then we give them free comprehensive health care(want a sex change? sure! Need a liver transplant? why not, murderer?), give them free education opportunities(vocational and classical), and hope everything is roses for when they come out and turn to recidivism.

Prison should be only 1 thing.  Punishment or reform.  Pick one.
 
2013-01-31 09:23:45 AM  

Just Another OC Homeless Guy: Civil isolation means just keeping them away from everyone else in society. This, IMO, is a valid reason for prisons, particularly for "non-curables" such as pedophiles. Lock 'em away, make them moderately comfortable and safe from each other, and keep them there forever.


Then you get in to the deinstitutionalization argument because you're essentially incarcerating people for a period of time they didn't "earn".
 
2013-01-31 09:24:46 AM  

jtown: Pocket Ninja: miss diminutive: If they had this knowledge then why are they in prison?

They have a strong nurturing instinct and want to be in a setting where they can best reach a receptive audience.

Because they know how they got caught.  They pass that knowledge on and it's a highly concentrated source of information with all of those criminals packed into a small space.  "Don't drop your wallet at the scene."  "Don't write your holdup note on a deposit slip."  "Don't fall asleep in the house you're robbing."


So...all those criminals are in Florida?
 
2013-01-31 09:26:33 AM  
My drug dealing cousin intentionally would go jail because he makes more money slinging drugs there than he does out in the street where he has to pay for healthcare, rent, food etc

/the cops and judges were finally onto him and stopped throwing him in jail
//so he raped a 14 year old to get back in
///yay US corrections!
 
2013-01-31 09:29:55 AM  
There sure is a contingent on FARK that makes it sound like prison is awesome.  Free meals, free lodging, free gym memberships, sounds like a goddamn paradise.

Lets leave out the fact that you no longer have the freedom to go outside, you have an imposed schedule, and you are housed with some violent people in small confines.
 
2013-01-31 09:37:25 AM  

Jim.Casy: jtown: Pocket Ninja: miss diminutive: If they had this knowledge then why are they in prison?

They have a strong nurturing instinct and want to be in a setting where they can best reach a receptive audience.

Because they know how they got caught.  They pass that knowledge on and it's a highly concentrated source of information with all of those criminals packed into a small space.  "Don't drop your wallet at the scene."  "Don't write your holdup note on a deposit slip."  "Don't fall asleep in the house you're robbing."

So...all those criminals are in Florida?


I'm not giving out the good tips for free.  If you want those, you'll have to attend a seminar.
 
2013-01-31 09:40:21 AM  

bhcompy: Our prison system is kind of screwed because it's two-faced(like the nation).  We punish people by putting them in there for years and years and years and letting the gangs run the asylum, then we give them free comprehensive health care(want a sex change? sure! Need a liver transplant? why not, murderer?), give them free education opportunities(vocational and classical), and hope everything is roses for when they come out and turn to recidivism.

Prison should be only 1 thing.  Punishment or reform.  Pick one.


You forget the part where after training for a 'real' job, they can't land one because they have been in prison and have to tick that box on all employment applications.
 
2013-01-31 09:41:00 AM  

Famous Thamas: There sure is a contingent on FARK that makes it sound like prison is awesome.  Free meals, free lodging, free gym memberships, sounds like a goddamn paradise.

Lets leave out the fact that you no longer have the freedom to go outside, you have an imposed schedule, and you are housed with some violent people in small confines.


For some people, it works.  Shawshank had it right with Brooks, though just committing another crime probably would be the result in today's world.

Take someone who is homeless or mentally ill.  They have an improved situation in prison.  Clothes, medicine, food, housing, etc.  There are reasons for it.
 
2013-01-31 10:31:24 AM  

Buttle not Tuttle: I don't know where you come down on the incarceration question, whether it's for rehabilitation or revenge, but I'm beginning to think revenge is the only argument makes any sense.


Revenge is the only argument that fits our judicial and prison system. No matter what people say they want, all they really want is revenge and punishment for lawbreakers.

Especially drunk drivers. The hate and anger is strong about those people. They may even be more hated than pedophiles.
 
2013-01-31 10:39:57 AM  

Famous Thamas: Lets leave out the fact that you no longer have the freedom to go outside, you have an imposed schedule, and you are housed with some violent people in small confines.


dilbert.com
dilbert.com
dilbert.com
dilbert.com
 
2013-01-31 10:58:33 AM  
A whole extra $11,000 dollars?

And you only have to give up 43 months of your life?.

No sir, I don't like it.
 
2013-01-31 11:00:37 AM  
I know, I know - Old article is old.

/lazy
 
2013-01-31 11:49:17 AM  

chende1: A whole extra $11,000 dollars?

And you only have to give up 43 months of your life?.

No sir, I don't like it.


College is 48 months, right?
 
2013-01-31 11:58:05 AM  

wambu: Buttle not Tuttle: I don't know where you come down on the incarceration question, whether it's for rehabilitation or revenge, but I'm beginning to think revenge is the only argument makes any sense.

Revenge is the only argument that fits our judicial and prison system. No matter what people say they want, all they really want is revenge and punishment for lawbreakers.


There are, historically, three reasons a sane society advocates prison, and 'revenge' is not one of them:
    Protection: To remove an immediate threat to society
    Punitive: To be used as a detriment when someone considers crime.
    Rehabilitation:  To help an individual become a productive member of society

What we've found is this:
         Jails do work to protect society in the short term,
         There is a body of various contested evidence that suggests that for specific crimes, harsher penalties do influence crime rates, but this is society & crime specific.
         No penal system in any country over the breadth of recorded human history has ever been able to have any measurable impact on recidivism rates1.  Or in other words, prisons do not rehabilitate prisoners.

I think that to fix the problems in our prison system, we need to acknowledge these goals and their expected outcomes.  If we keep thinking we can rehab prisoners, we're just wasting time and energy.  We should focus on dangers to society, like those with multiple counts of domestic abuse or assault being jailed for life, or considered for death, rather than a 6 month sentence for repeat offenders2.  We should also consider alternative punishments for those crimes for which prison isn't a deterrent.

I think the biggest hurdle will be to drop the belief that prisons can reform prisoners.  This is an underlying theme justifying many of the accommodations prisoners are given.  We shouldn't allow prisons to devolve into torture-rape camps, but at the same time, it IS a punishment, one of the few devices society uses to strip innate freedoms from an individual when they show they cannot be responsible enough to enjoy them.  If it's defanged, it may present an inadequate threat.

1 - With the exception of physically maiming or killing someone, which makes perpetuating a crime quite difficult.
2 - Who is more likely to be a repeat offender and a danger to society - the man who shoots and kills his wife and her lover upon finding them, or the man with over 30 convictions for assault?
 
2013-01-31 12:06:45 PM  

quietwalker: There are, historically, three reasons a sane society advocates prison, and 'revenge' is not one of them:


It's just not what they admit to.
 
2013-01-31 01:40:16 PM  

wambu: quietwalker: There are, historically, three reasons a sane society advocates prison, and 'revenge' is not one of them:

It's just not what they admit to.


Individuals want revenge, but advocating revenge make society unstable.
The more stable societies do not  include revenge or honor as defensible legal arguments.
Individuals don't make laws, society does.

Therefore, a sane society does not condone revenge, even if individuals may want it.
 
2013-01-31 02:38:54 PM  

bhcompy: Prison should be only 1 thing.  Punishment or reform.  Pick one.


False dichotomy is false. Thanks for playing all or nothing.
 
2013-01-31 03:10:55 PM  
i find it quaint how the author attempts to label individuals "criminals".
 
2013-01-31 10:13:32 PM  
So my thing is this, these people probably had straight jobs before they went in and did crime on the side. When they got out they could no longer get straight jobs so crime became their primary job so that portion of their income went up.
 
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