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(Yahoo)   That US Navy minesweeper is still stuck on the reef and can't get off on her own. New plan: open her wide and tear her a new one   (news.yahoo.com) divider line 99
    More: Followup, navies, World Heritage, National Geospatial-Intelligence Agency  
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8101 clicks; posted to Main » on 30 Jan 2013 at 9:06 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-01-30 10:48:44 AM
 
2013-01-30 10:54:33 AM
FTA: ...as the ship crossed the Sulu Sea

Oh my!
 
2013-01-30 10:56:12 AM

alienated: Oh wait, let me guess- Some Admiral has a friend who makes these , who needs a few hundred million, right ?


Actually these ships are being replaced by the LCS. Difficulty: the mission package that allows the LCS to hunt mines isn't ready for prime time.
 
2013-01-30 10:56:52 AM
Minesweepers do not have a navigational sonar. We use a mine hunting sonar. Hence the name is only used during mine hunting.

I do agree that the forward lookout should see the waves breaking over the coal, however not being there at 0200 I could not tell what the forward lookout was doing, (back in my day they were sleeping).

I would assume that they were using paper charts as a back-up. I know I always did as CIC Watch Supervisor, and what happen to the fathometer?

A Navy Mineman with 16 years of sea onboard minesweepers.
 
2013-01-30 10:59:24 AM
it's not your dad's navy anymore....
www.redstatereport.com
 
2013-01-30 10:59:24 AM

DAR: Cybernetic: My first thought was that someone's naval career just went down the toilet, but then I saw that they had been given a bad chart.

your first thought was correct.  Bad chart or not, that skipper's career is over and most of this bridge crew also.

Navigators now days get too used to GPS / electronic equipment and forget to use MK-1 Eye Ball.   Blue water deep, green water shallow.

I'm willing to bet the 72 hour port call in the Philippines had something to do with running aground.....k/dar


FTFA: The 23-year-old Avenger class minesweeper USS Guardian ran aground on Tubbataha Reef the night of Jan. 17 as the ship crossed the Sulu Sea.

Deep water black, shallow water black, you mean?
 
2013-01-30 11:00:32 AM

cptjeff: Old_Chief_Scott: 2. A lookout is going to be oh so helpful for something that is underwater

See those waves breaking on the reef and the changes in color? I could have told you there was an underwater rock there, and my experience is limited to the occasional whitewater canoe or kayak trip. A trained navy lookout should be able to tell that there's something there.


The grounding occurred at night. Depending on the tide there might be nothing at all to see.

Old_Chief_Scott: 3. Enlighten us, pray tell, about your knowledge of the ship's sonar capabilities.

It's a farking minesweeper. Forward looking sonar to scan for underwater obstacles is kind of a thing with those.


You don't just drive around the ocean pounding away with active sonar. It's hard on equipment, hard on watchstanders, and apparently hard on marine mammals. Active sonar is only used when you are engaged in a search, not for normal navigation.

Old_Chief_Scott: It's one thing to have to watch this ship be stricken and it's captain farked over, it's entirely another thing to read the comments of the internet experts.

One does not need to be an expert, internet or otherwise, to know that someone done goofed, big time, even given the bad chart.


Oh, that CO is farked, no doubt about it. He is farked but good for using an approved chart provided by the Bureau of Navigation.
 
2013-01-30 11:07:03 AM

clane: it's not your dad's navy anymore....
[www.redstatereport.com image 500x374]


Don't drag Canada into this.

/Captain's farked. He's 100% percent responsible. Even if they find him innocent, I doubt he'll ever command again.
 
2013-01-30 11:12:24 AM

Old_Chief_Scott: Oh, that CO is farked, no doubt about it. He is farked but good for using an approved chart provided by the Bureau of Navigation.


The general DNC and hardcopy charts show the reef's location correctly, NGA said.

As cumbersome as they are, paper charts are the primary navigation instrument.

Yeah, he's farked.
 
2013-01-30 11:25:41 AM

alienated: Oh wait, let me guess- Some Admiral Congresscritter has a friend who makes these , who needs a few hundred million, right ?


FTFY
 
2013-01-30 11:30:17 AM

ruetheday69: Deep water black, shallow water black, you mean?


The waxing gibbous moon at the time would have shown the white caps, unless it was cloudy. Then all bets are off. Sometimes you just can't see sh*t, and hearing breakers over the sound of diesel engines and wind is not happening.

ideclare: Minesweepers do not have a navigational sonar.


That's what I figured, and the bathymetry there may have rendered even continuous soundings useless.

doyner: The general DNC and hardcopy charts show the reef's location correctly, NGA said.


Between that and the interaction with the local authorities (if substantiated), this is definitely negligence up and down the chain of command.
 
2013-01-30 11:31:08 AM
They're givin' all they've got, Captain! She canna take anymore!
 
2013-01-30 11:38:34 AM
I mean, NGA's had a shakeup recently, but who the hell let Jim Bob from the Ozarks draw maps? We used to hire competent cartographers and digitizers...
 
2013-01-30 11:44:34 AM

factoryconnection: Between that and the interaction with the local authorities (if substantiated), this is definitely negligence up and down the chain of command.


I do feel bad for those guys.  Minesweeper sailors have been "the ugly date at the dance*" for a long, long time.  They get no respect.

*Not my words--the words of some poor O4 on the staff of the minesweeper squadron out in PAC that I talked to last week when I was on duty.
 
2013-01-30 11:50:19 AM
Barricaded Gunman

Ignoring your predictable "screw it, it's only nature" stance for a moment, how exactly would we expect the Filipino government to handle this if they had run a huge ship aground in one of our national parks?
Drag the boat out of Yellowstone and let the trees grow back.

The whole goddamn world isn't a dick-measuring contest, so f#cking relax with all the chest thumping, tough guy.
Seeing that there's no "tough guy" reference to base your ad hominem on ... I'll just laugh at your inability to stay focused.
 
2013-01-30 12:00:34 PM
img502.imageshack.us

USS LaMoure County LST-1194 hard agound in Chile.
 
2013-01-30 12:02:28 PM
 
2013-01-30 12:03:11 PM

zinethar: [img502.imageshack.us image 800x529]

USS LaMoure County LST-1194 hard agound in Chile.


Decomissioning ceremony was held at that very spot.  IIRC, some of her is still there.
 
2013-01-30 12:10:56 PM

peasants_are_revolting: As a diver, I am cringing at the image of that boat crushing the reef.


As a taxpayer, I'm cringing at our unwillingness to destroy that reef in order to free our ship.
 
2013-01-30 12:13:56 PM

BigNumber12: peasants_are_revolting: As a diver, I am cringing at the image of that boat crushing the reef.

As a taxpayer, I'm cringing at our unwillingness to destroy that reef in order to free our ship.


That ship is farked.  As a taxpayer I'm glad we're not throwing good money after bad.
 
2013-01-30 12:18:33 PM

doyner: BigNumber12: peasants_are_revolting: As a diver, I am cringing at the image of that boat crushing the reef.

As a taxpayer, I'm cringing at our unwillingness to destroy that reef in order to free our ship.

That ship is farked.  As a taxpayer I'm glad we're not throwing good money after bad.


Yep. After several days of being pounded on that reef by waves that boat is as farked as her skipper.

I was on the USS Witchita (AOR1) many years ago and we were hit broadside to broadside by the carrier USS Ranger during an UNREP. We were in contact for several minutes in which time the relative movement between the two ships just tea-totally tore up the Witch. I can only imagine the amount of damage this minesweeper now has.
 
2013-01-30 12:23:30 PM
Minesweepers have had worse problems.
padresteve.files.wordpress.com
 
2013-01-30 12:27:33 PM
www.nolandalla.com

You know who else was a bad minesweeper skipper?
 
2013-01-30 12:28:11 PM

MBooda: Minesweepers have had worse problems.
[padresteve.files.wordpress.com image 448x252]


/Shakes fist in impotent rage
 
2013-01-30 12:28:17 PM
padresteve.files.wordpress.com

The important thing is, did the Captain find out who stole the missing strawberries?
 
2013-01-30 12:31:45 PM
Damn.....like minds and all that.
 
2013-01-30 12:44:35 PM

doyner: zinethar: [img502.imageshack.us image 800x529]

USS LaMoure County LST-1194 hard agound in Chile.

Decomissioning ceremony was held at that very spot.  IIRC, some of her is still there.


Was stationed aboard her from 88-92. Pretty decent ship once we got her up and running. It was sad to see her go under in flames after the target practice.
 
2013-01-30 12:51:39 PM

Valiente: /have run around and got myself off without aid or further damage.


The Mad Skeeters fark handle has been revealed!
 
2013-01-30 01:02:38 PM

zinethar: [img502.imageshack.us image 800x529]

USS LaMoure County LST-1194 hard agound in Chile.


Was the skipper for this the same man who was the last skipper of the Forrestal back in 93?
 
2013-01-30 01:12:47 PM
OnlyM3: Seeing that there's no "tough guy" reference to base your ad hominem on ... I'll just laugh at your inability to stay focused.

Laugh it up, Einstein:

OnlyM3: Yeah it certainly can't be eco stupidity to prevent minor damage that will re-grow. Oh wait, that's exactly what the article says it's about.

Your comment - the only thing I quoted in my initial remark - sneeringly dismissing the concerns of a sovereign nation for the environmental sustainability of its coastline as "eco-stupidity" is the tough-guy routine I was referencing. Did you really not understand that?
 
2013-01-30 01:25:56 PM
2.bp.blogspot.com
 
2013-01-30 01:57:09 PM

Old_Chief_Scott: doyner: BigNumber12: peasants_are_revolting: As a diver, I am cringing at the image of that boat crushing the reef.

As a taxpayer, I'm cringing at our unwillingness to destroy that reef in order to free our ship.

That ship is farked.  As a taxpayer I'm glad we're not throwing good money after bad.

Yep. After several days of being pounded on that reef by waves that boat is as farked as her skipper.

I was on the USS Witchita (AOR1) many years ago and we were hit broadside to broadside by the carrier USS Ranger during an UNREP. We were in contact for several minutes in which time the relative movement between the two ships just tea-totally tore up the Witch. I can only imagine the amount of damage this minesweeper now has.


I got to witness a flawless UNREP while on a cruiser a couple of weeks ago. It was a thing of awe and beauty. I can guess that there were demotions involved with the aftermath of your experience?

We were underway when the Guardian ran aground and I didn't know about it until we were within cellphone range of San Diego, returning to port. Everyone I heard talking about it, sailors and riders alike, agreed the its commander's career had suddenly swerved.
 
2013-01-30 02:17:59 PM

doyner: Old_Chief_Scott: Oh, that CO is farked, no doubt about it. He is farked but good for using an approved chart provided by the Bureau of Navigation.

The general DNC and hardcopy charts show the reef's location correctly, NGA said.

As cumbersome as they are, paper charts are the primary navigation instrument.

Yeah, he's farked.


I assume this vessel doesn't have ECDIS? Per Navy Regulations:

"To support this transition to electronic navigation,
all ships who are authorized ECDIS-N as the Primary Navigation
Plot may cease correcting paper charts as of 01 July 2010."

Merely wondering, since I know a different service where paper charts are NOT the primary navigation instrument. And it sounds like, for at least a number of Navy vessels, it is not either.
 
2013-01-30 02:42:36 PM
If there is ONE thing a minesweeper is very good at is looking UNDER water!!!! This is truly ironic!!
I feel sorry for the CO and his bridge crew of the USS Guardian., their careers are bascally over.
If there is one thing even more toxic than sexual harassment to a naval officer's career is running his ship aground.


Also what is a ship captain's equivalent of 'you'll be flying a cargo plane full of rubber dog shiat out of Hong Kong!'.

content9.flixster.com
 
2013-01-30 02:44:55 PM
Damn... I was stationed on Guardian in the 90's, before we got crew-swapped to the Devastator (MCM-6). Poor old pine box... :(
 
2013-01-30 02:49:32 PM
...was kind of hoping it would be towed off the reef by USS Colossus...

lh4.ggpht.com

/obscure?
 
2013-01-30 02:54:29 PM

Krieghund: DAR: bad enough to run your ship aground but having salvagers cut it up to get it off the rocks is really bad........the whole bridge crew should be keelhauled & stranded on that beach with a bad conduct discharge just like the old days.......k/dar

I don't know how this would figure in:
A preliminary Navy review found that the digital chart the crew was using to navigate the ship incorrectly listed the reef's location by 8 miles.

Perhaps the cartographer should be keelhauled and stranded with them?


They must have been using Apple Maps, Amirite?
 
2013-01-30 02:59:05 PM

mylonitic: Krieghund: DAR: bad enough to run your ship aground but having salvagers cut it up to get it off the rocks is really bad........the whole bridge crew should be keelhauled & stranded on that beach with a bad conduct discharge just like the old days.......k/dar

I don't know how this would figure in:
A preliminary Navy review found that the digital chart the crew was using to navigate the ship incorrectly listed the reef's location by 8 miles.

Perhaps the cartographer should be keelhauled and stranded with them?

They must have been using Apple Maps, Amirite?


Navy uses Google Earth.

/not at all surprised
 
2013-01-30 03:05:47 PM
"You coral reef'd my minesweeper!" sounds a lot less impressive than "You sunk my battleship!".
 
2013-01-30 03:48:20 PM

DAR: bad enough to run your ship aground but having salvagers cut it up to get it off the rocks is really bad........the whole bridge crew should be keelhauled & stranded on that beach with a bad conduct discharge just like the old days .......k/dar



Frowns at your rhetorical device:
www.history.navy.mil
;-)
 
2013-01-30 04:57:13 PM

Old_Chief_Scott: It's a farking minesweeper. Forward looking sonar to scan for underwater obstacles is kind of a thing with those.

You don't just drive around the ocean pounding away with active sonar. It's hard on equipment, hard on watchstanders, and apparently hard on marine mammals. Active sonar is only used when you are engaged in a search, not for normal navigation.


I wonder if they still listen through hydrophones anymore, or even have something similar on these ships.  If you read through some of the old WWII submarine stories, they talk about fixing their position off shore by using bearings from the sounds of wave action on particular reefs/shoals they had on their charts.

I would assume waves on this reef could have been heard passively with the right equipment.
 
2013-01-30 06:06:34 PM

priapic_abandon: Dude, could have been worse..

[www.stokemuseums.org.uk image 541x553]


It could have been even worse than that:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Byng
 
2013-01-30 06:31:40 PM
Tailgunner Joe: [padresteve.files.wordpress.com image 400x224]

The important thing is, did the Captain find out who stole the missing strawberries?


Shakes tiny fist
 
2013-01-30 06:54:43 PM
lunchinlewis:
I wonder if they still listen through hydrophones anymore, or even have something similar on these ships.  If you read through some of the old WWII submarine stories, they talk about fixing their position off shore by using bearings from the sounds of wave action on particular reefs/shoals they had on their charts.

Not on a minesweeper, they don't. And I hope no surface ships are using passive sonar bearings for navigation...that sounds like a terrible idea. Bearing error alone would put you on the rocks in no time at all.

The CO may survive this one, given the chart issue. Add that to the fact that the OOD is given standing orders to report (in my ship's case) any greater than a 20% difference between the charted depth and the fathometer readout, and you've got a very very fired Ensign over there.
 
2013-01-30 07:23:30 PM
So reefs are more valuable than ships now?
 
2013-01-30 09:18:24 PM
no.. but world wide public relahtions are
 
2013-01-31 12:00:05 AM
Manual Stimulation is the only answer. 

/She will definitely get off then.
 
2013-01-31 09:02:33 AM

Kyoowashugi: lunchinlewis:
I wonder if they still listen through hydrophones anymore, or even have something similar on these ships.  If you read through some of the old WWII submarine stories, they talk about fixing their position off shore by using bearings from the sounds of wave action on particular reefs/shoals they had on their charts.

Not on a minesweeper, they don't. And I hope no surface ships are using passive sonar bearings for navigation...that sounds like a terrible idea. Bearing error alone would put you on the rocks in no time at all.

The CO may survive this one, given the chart issue. Add that to the fact that the OOD is given standing orders to report (in my ship's case) any greater than a 20% difference between the charted depth and the fathometer readout, and you've got a very very fired Ensign over there.


I wasn't implying that they would be using it to get a position fix nowadays, just wondering if they did that type of listening anymore, since I have read that you can hear close by wave action that way.
 
2013-01-31 12:36:20 PM

lunchinlewis: I wasn't implying that they would be using it to get a position fix nowadays, just wondering if they did that type of listening anymore, since I have read that you can hear close by wave action that way.


Passive sonar is still a very big component of anti-submarine warfare, perhaps the largest part.
 
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