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(Coding In My Sleep)   Hey consumers, remember all those credit card fees you didn't care about because only the merchants had to pay them? Yeah, about that   (codinginmysleep.com) divider line 108
    More: Amusing, credit cards, merchants, payment processor, fees, consumers, killer app  
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4248 clicks; posted to Business » on 30 Jan 2013 at 8:44 AM (2 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-01-30 08:18:54 AM  
If only there was some way to pay for stuff that didn't involve an electronic transaction.  Maybe some kind of paper that we could exchange for goods and services.
 
2013-01-30 08:39:19 AM  

BillCo: If only there was some way to pay for stuff that didn't involve an electronic transaction.  Maybe some kind of paper that we could exchange for goods and services.


And we could get that paper from an electronic transaction with a big metal box.

I don't think you've thought your cunning plan all the way through.
 
2013-01-30 08:47:47 AM  

Krieghund: BillCo: If only there was some way to pay for stuff that didn't involve an electronic transaction.  Maybe some kind of paper that we could exchange for goods and services.

And we could get that paper from an electronic transaction with a big metal box.

I don't think you've thought your cunning plan all the way through.


I don't pay any ATM fees.  Do you?  If so, you need to find a new bank.
 
2013-01-30 08:52:48 AM  
Finally coming full circle. Turns out the dipwads running around charging everything so they can get their precious "miles" at everyone else's expense will have to sit on it, Potsie.
 
2013-01-30 08:55:08 AM  
FTA: "Visa and nine other companies conspired to fix the fees merchants pay to process credit card transactions. This sort of collusion is, of course, unlawful and no one can deny that it was hurting merchants everywhere to pay artificially high transaction fees"

If it's legal for electricians and plumbers to conspire to fix fees, why not credit cards? Well, at least the article notes that doing so is bad for business and makes things cost more.
 
2013-01-30 09:04:00 AM  
Unless Amazon starts charging a surcharge I don't really care. If a retail store tries charging 4% to use a credit card I'll order it from Amazon right there.
 
2013-01-30 09:08:30 AM  

BillCo: Krieghund: BillCo: If only there was some way to pay for stuff that didn't involve an electronic transaction.  Maybe some kind of paper that we could exchange for goods and services.

And we could get that paper from an electronic transaction with a big metal box.

I don't think you've thought your cunning plan all the way through.

I don't pay any ATM fees currently.  Do you?  If so, you need to find a new bank.


Fixed that for you.
 
2013-01-30 09:15:33 AM  

Carth: Unless Amazon starts charging a surcharge I don't really care. If a retail store tries charging 4% to use a credit card I'll order it from Amazon right there.


Unless it is illegal, why wouldn't the store just factor in this fee into the product price and have a nice little PR saying look we don't pass this fee along.
 
2013-01-30 09:16:40 AM  
ruling does not have an effect on debit cards

just use those
 
2013-01-30 09:18:44 AM  

jaggspb: Carth: Unless Amazon starts charging a surcharge I don't really care. If a retail store tries charging 4% to use a credit card I'll order it from Amazon right there.

Unless it is illegal, why wouldn't the store just factor in this fee into the product price and have a nice little PR saying look we don't pass this fee along.


That is what they currently do. Proponents of the change say "now stores can lower their prices for debt/cash users and stop subsidizing credit cards" but in reality I bet they just raise the prices for credit and leave the other ones the same.
 
2013-01-30 09:19:38 AM  
apparently this is illegal in Oklahoma unless the retailer posts a sign notifying customers.
 
2013-01-30 09:25:02 AM  

BillCo: Krieghund: BillCo: If only there was some way to pay for stuff that didn't involve an electronic transaction.  Maybe some kind of paper that we could exchange for goods and services.

And we could get that paper from an electronic transaction with a big metal box.

I don't think you've thought your cunning plan all the way through.

I don't pay any ATM fees.  Do you?  If so, you need to find a new bank.


Ha! And I don't pay transaction fees on CC purchases.

Isn't 'it all comes from the customer' your line? You pay for it in lower rates on your savings account. Because SOMEONE has to pay for the ATMs and fees from other banks.
 
2013-01-30 09:26:47 AM  

Carth: jaggspb: Carth: Unless Amazon starts charging a surcharge I don't really care. If a retail store tries charging 4% to use a credit card I'll order it from Amazon right there.

Unless it is illegal, why wouldn't the store just factor in this fee into the product price and have a nice little PR saying look we don't pass this fee along.

That is what they currently do. Proponents of the change say "now stores can lower their prices for debt/cash users and stop subsidizing credit cards" but in reality I bet they just raise the prices for credit and leave the other ones the same.


Agreed. Business - throwing ethics out the window since the beginning of their existence
 
2013-01-30 09:26:49 AM  

Deneb81: BillCo: Krieghund: BillCo: If only there was some way to pay for stuff that didn't involve an electronic transaction.  Maybe some kind of paper that we could exchange for goods and services.

And we could get that paper from an electronic transaction with a big metal box.

I don't think you've thought your cunning plan all the way through.

I don't pay any ATM fees.  Do you?  If so, you need to find a new bank.

Ha! And I don't pay transaction fees on CC purchases.

Isn't 'it all comes from the customer' your line? You pay for it in lower rates on your savings account. Because SOMEONE has to pay for the ATMs and fees from other banks.


This. Also if you have a significant amount of money in low/no interest savings or checking accounts you're doing it wrong. Using debt regularly would involve too much shuffling around money to different accounts.
 
2013-01-30 09:27:10 AM  
"transaction fees" = "makinstuffup fees"

That is all.
 
2013-01-30 09:32:32 AM  
Yes, but what REALLY pisses me off is a store that refuses to accept either credit or debit cards unless you buy a certain amount.

In fact, there's a DVD/CD/game store in my hometown that will not take credit or debit AT ALL. The guy who owns it says that's because he doesn't want to pay the merchant's fees. What an a-hole. SOOO many people would spend WAY more money in that friggin' store if he'd take some form of plastic.

Dipwad.
 
2013-01-30 09:35:05 AM  
Don't worry guys, I'm sure that when stores start charging credit card fees, they'll lower prices across to remove the built in fees that have been passed on to the consumer for years. Right?
 
2013-01-30 09:37:20 AM  
It has always seemed to me that the fees were probably better for the vendors than the alternatives. 1) it allows customers to spend more (admittedly not always in the customer's best interest), 2) it allows vendors to not have to make so much change and spend on the manpower that comes with the extra counting, changing, recounting, etc,. and 3) it allows vendors to not have to deal with people writing so many checks (which may or may not clear the bank, only to be figured out days later).
 
2013-01-30 09:45:53 AM  
If the merchant doesn't bake the fee into their prices like they do now anyways, they won't need to worry about fees from me, or business for that matter. Total moneygrab.
 
2013-01-30 09:50:36 AM  

BillCo: If only there was some way to pay for stuff that didn't involve an electronic transaction.  Maybe some kind of paper that we could exchange for goods and services.


Not all goods and services. Why don't you go out and report back to us on how easy it is to rent a car, get a hotel room that doesn't come with complementary hepatitis, or buy something online without a credit card.
 
2013-01-30 09:51:20 AM  
Hey, blogger, you're already paying the fee.

Though, why is this a new thing?  The liquor stores (and only the liquor stores) around me have been doing this for years by charging lower prices for cash.
 
2013-01-30 10:01:03 AM  
OK merchants -- I'm going to save you a lot of trouble here.....Just assume that everyone is going to pay with a credit card and figure it in to your price/fee.

/I'm a merchant and take credit cards.
 
2013-01-30 10:08:08 AM  

GoodyearPimp: Finally coming full circle. Turns out the dipwads running around charging everything so they can get their precious "miles" at everyone else's expense will have to sit on it, Potsie.


Not really. Most merchants, at least big names, aren't going to pass along the charges as they are already built into their prices. Maybe the guy at the corner store might, but in his case it sort of makes sense and is fair, because if he is, say, selling his smokes at cost to drive traffic, and you come in and charge a pack, he might actually be taking a loss on it.

And yea, i'll keep my precious miles. I'll be sure to wave to you as you pass by on your way back to coach.
 
2013-01-30 10:10:52 AM  
I'd like to also point out that this is all spillover from the changes last year thanks to the idiots who couldn't maintain a balance in accounts linked to their debit cards, and racked up overdraft fees. (not that the banks were in the right either, but there were far better solutions that worked for everyone instead of what was implemented, and everyone who has ever worked in retail on the finance side saw this as a natural extension).
 
2013-01-30 10:11:55 AM  

Karac: Why don't you go out and report back to us on how easy it is ..to buy something online without a credit card.


Really easy.
Use paypal.
Chose the option to have the money debited from your bank account.
 
2013-01-30 10:14:37 AM  

DrPainMD: FTA: "Visa and nine other companies conspired to fix the fees merchants pay to process credit card transactions. This sort of collusion is, of course, unlawful and no one can deny that it was hurting merchants everywhere to pay artificially high transaction fees"

If it's legal for electricians and plumbers to conspire to fix fees, why not credit cards? Well, at least the article notes that doing so is bad for business and makes things cost more.


Price fixing is illegal regardless of who does it, but the trick is to prove that it's happening. It's harder to catch a couple of independent contractors compared for a couple of highly regulated immense multinationals.
 
2013-01-30 10:16:04 AM  
This is just silly. I can't speak for the mom and pops but large retailers consider it a benefit to them to not have to handle large amounts of cash. It's one of the reasons they offer cash back on debit. The retailer still pays the percentage fee on that transaction but it gets cash out of their till/store. Cash is very expensive to secure, and time consuming to handle properly.
 
2013-01-30 10:16:55 AM  

Stile4aly: DrPainMD: FTA: "Visa and nine other companies conspired to fix the fees merchants pay to process credit card transactions. This sort of collusion is, of course, unlawful and no one can deny that it was hurting merchants everywhere to pay artificially high transaction fees"

If it's legal for electricians and plumbers to conspire to fix fees, why not credit cards? Well, at least the article notes that doing so is bad for business and makes things cost more.

Price fixing is illegal regardless of who does it, but the trick is to prove that it's happening. It's harder to catch a couple of independent contractors compared for a couple of highly regulated immense multinationals.


The giant multinationals are "too big to prosecute", and if they are prosecuted, they can afford to spend hundreds of millions and bankrupt whatever country tries to punish them. The couple contractors will get completely f*cked if there is even a whiff of impropriety.
 
2013-01-30 10:21:15 AM  

the_geek: This is just silly. I can't speak for the mom and pops but large retailers consider it a benefit to them to not have to handle large amounts of cash. It's one of the reasons they offer cash back on debit. The retailer still pays the percentage fee on that transaction but it gets cash out of their till/store. Cash is very expensive to secure, and time consuming to handle properly.


Yup. Plus a large retailer is paying next to squat on interchange fees.

The liquor store around the corner might be paying a few percent, because their transaction probably goes through 3 or 4 people before actually making it to the banks, and the float on the money may affect their operations more depending on how they pay for their product, which is why places like that hate you using a credit card on a low price purchase.

But Walmart? They are paying next to nothing for their interchange fees, those costs are already built in, and the last thing they want is more people paying in cash. Sure, they would prefer you to use debit or a store branded card at the end of the day, but they would rather pay a small fee than have to deal with the hassles of cash.
 
2013-01-30 10:23:30 AM  

LineNoise: those costs are already built in


Those (higher) costs are already built into the mom and pop shop prices also.
 
2013-01-30 10:26:12 AM  

BillCo: If only there was some way to pay for stuff that didn't involve an electronic transaction.  Maybe some kind of paper that we could exchange for goods and services.


ButtCoins?
 
2013-01-30 10:26:25 AM  

Rapmaster2000: Hey, blogger, you're already paying the fee.

Though, why is this a new thing?  The liquor stores (and only the liquor stores) around me have been doing this for years by charging lower prices for cash.


It is against their merchant agreement with the credit cards.

tenpoundsofcheese: Really easy.
Use paypal.
Chose the option to have the money debited from your bank account


Now tell us how easy it is to prevent PayPal from overdrawing from your bank account.

GoodyearPimp: Finally coming full circle. Turns out the dipwads running around charging everything so they can get their precious "miles" at everyone else's expense will have to sit on it, Potsie.


Why?

I still got my "miles"?
 
2013-01-30 10:31:19 AM  
NBC contacted the 100 biggest stores/online retailers and none of them were going to implement that charge, because apparently they have usually already negotiated a smaller charge from the banks in the first place. So that just leaves the mom and pop stores, which will cause them to be even less competitive with the big stores. I'm not too worried about seeing this charge in the near future.
 
2013-01-30 10:33:20 AM  

the_geek: LineNoise: those costs are already built in

Those (higher) costs are already built into the mom and pop shop prices also.


To a degree, but not the same level as they are in a major retail org.

Typically the way it works is you have mom and pop liquor store. A few years ago, some guy with a side business came in, said, "Hey, I can set you up with a credit card system, it will drive some added business for you!"

The didn't immediately go and jack their prices for it. Even if they did, the time that they are waiting on their cash impacts them more, as they are typically paying their suppliers either upfront, or much quicker than, say, best buy, would.

Are they really "losing" 4% or whatever? No, of course not. if they were they wouldn't take credit cards period. Would they prefer you to pay cash for your 50 cent pack of juicy fruit? absolutely.

I have no problem allowing retailers to set different charges for different payment methods. Gas stations have done it for a long time (for slightly different reasons, but again, reasons everyone benefits from).
 
2013-01-30 10:33:23 AM  
If I were a mugger/pickpocket, I'd be thrilled at the concept of more and more marks having an increase in easily disposable cash on them. It'd make my job easier.
 
2013-01-30 10:39:39 AM  

Lost Thought 00: Stile4aly: DrPainMD: FTA: "Visa and nine other companies conspired to fix the fees merchants pay to process credit card transactions. This sort of collusion is, of course, unlawful and no one can deny that it was hurting merchants everywhere to pay artificially high transaction fees"

If it's legal for electricians and plumbers to conspire to fix fees, why not credit cards? Well, at least the article notes that doing so is bad for business and makes things cost more.

Price fixing is illegal regardless of who does it, but the trick is to prove that it's happening. It's harder to catch a couple of independent contractors compared for a couple of highly regulated immense multinationals.

The giant multinationals are "too big to prosecute", and if they are prosecuted, they can afford to spend hundreds of millions and bankrupt whatever country tries to punish them. The couple contractors will get completely f*cked if there is even a whiff of impropriety.


Uhh... the article we're discussing is the result of the giant multinationalis being prosecuted.
 
2013-01-30 10:40:26 AM  

vicioushobbit: If I were a mugger/pickpocket, I'd be thrilled at the concept of more and more marks having an increase in easily disposable cash on them. It'd make my job easier.


Might be a problem for people who still walk from place to place. Otherwise, BFD.
 
2013-01-30 10:41:57 AM  
Is there a more reputable source for this? I lost interest in TFA when I saw this part:

As a proponent of the online currency Bitcoin and a former Verifone employee, I've said for ages that cheap/free payment processing should be Bitcoin's "killer app" but sadly it wasn't likely since only the merchants really knew or cared much about these fees.
 
2013-01-30 10:41:57 AM  
A chain of gas stations in my area wont take any form of plastic, but in turn they have gas prices lower than most people.
 
2013-01-30 10:45:12 AM  

groppet: A chain of gas stations in my area wont take any form of plastic, but in turn they have gas prices lower than most people.


gas stations have a somewhat different model when it comes to stuff like that, mainly because the cost of gas can swing wildly in the time between when a person puts it on their credit card, and when the gas station actually gets those funds in their account. Plus the margins to the actual guy who owns the pump in a gas station are only a few percent to begin with.
 
2013-01-30 10:48:00 AM  
Meh, I didnt RTFA or all the comments but this isnt much of anything right now. The card holder agreement states that the fee must be charged at all locations owned by the company or none of the locations. The advantage here is that most big box stores have at least one location in a state that prohibits fees as a matter of state law and thus that chain cant charge fees anywhere in the US. So you are going to have the Big Box stores prohibited from being able to do this which leaves the smaller stores that probably cant afford to mark up their products further through this fee and remain competitive against the chain stores. Just too much bad press and pissing off their customers to do this. What you will have left are some sketchy convenience stores that will add the fee and thats about it.

\CT prohibits fees
\\I think there are about a dozen in all that do as well
 
2013-01-30 10:48:01 AM  
Some around here (truck stops, especially) have a lower price if you pay cash.
 
2013-01-30 10:51:16 AM  

jaggspb: Carth: Unless Amazon starts charging a surcharge I don't really care. If a retail store tries charging 4% to use a credit card I'll order it from Amazon right there.

Unless it is illegal, why wouldn't the store just factor in this fee into the product price and have a nice little PR saying look we don't pass this fee along.


That's what they're doing now.
 
2013-01-30 10:54:36 AM  
If we're going to be handling more cash, can we please get ATMs that dispense larger bills?
 
2013-01-30 10:54:54 AM  
More people paying cash to avoid new credit card fees? Sounds like a great time to be in the stick-up racket. I wonder how many cashiers needs to get iced before retailers wise up and lose the fees.
 
2013-01-30 10:59:57 AM  
So? I just pick up everything from Amazon. That saves me the smell of going in the local comic shop. I get my fix $3 cheaper and without tax. And it smells like BO in there.

/His mom was very nice. She must be the daytime cashier.
//Local record stores suck as well. No selection and all CDs for $18-$20. Sorry. Amazon is cheaper and digital if I want.
 
2013-01-30 11:06:37 AM  
i just came here to say ATM machine

/ok rant away whoever gets their undies in a bunch when hearing this.
 
2013-01-30 11:29:36 AM  

doczoidberg: Yes, but what REALLY pisses me off is a store that refuses to accept either credit or debit cards unless you buy a certain amount.

In fact, there's a DVD/CD/game store in my hometown that will not take credit or debit AT ALL. The guy who owns it says that's because he doesn't want to pay the merchant's fees. What an a-hole. SOOO many people would spend WAY more money in that friggin' store if he'd take some form of plastic.

Dipwad.


Depends on his reasons. If his margin on games in only 5% or so to start with, it may be smart (if that is the bulk of his sales). Target, Walmart and other big players get better rates and may pay 1% or less on a transaction. Last time I had to deal with Visa in a retail setting, the interchange charge was about 3.5%. So on a 5% markup, you lose 3.5%, more than half your profit. We refused taking AMEX because their fee was around 8 or 9% and our markup was around 10% for most goods, so it was possible we were working for 'free'.

In cases like gas stations you may eat this so you drive traffic and people come in more often to buy beer, snacks and whatever. In a game stores, yeah, you may get more repeat business, but you are not really supporting other sales with a loss leader. All your stuff is the mostly the same, with the same markup.

kneubra: 3) it allows vendors to not have to deal with people writing so many checks (which may or may not clear the bank, only to be figured out days later).


Meh, for any place that takes cards anymore, they basically treat checks like EBT cards. You swipe the check, it reads the routing and account information and you put in the total... it comes out of your account right away. This impacts more vendors like craft fairs or other places that can't process such things. There really is very little float left in checks anymore. Now that you can deposit a check with a camera phone, I'm sure there are mobile solutions that will read checks like above as well, and take funds immediately.
 
2013-01-30 11:32:45 AM  

Loki009: Meh, I didnt RTFA or all the comments but this isnt much of anything right now. The card holder agreement states that the fee must be charged at all locations owned by the company or none of the locations. The advantage here is that most big box stores have at least one location in a state that prohibits fees as a matter of state law and thus that chain cant charge fees anywhere in the US. So you are going to have the Big Box stores prohibited from being able to do this which leaves the smaller stores that probably cant afford to mark up their products further through this fee and remain competitive against the chain stores. Just too much bad press and pissing off their customers to do this. What you will have left are some sketchy convenience stores that will add the fee and thats about it.

\CT prohibits fees
\\I think there are about a dozen in all that do as well


California bans the fees as well and if you're a national brand you can't really stop doing business in CA.
 
2013-01-30 11:35:24 AM  
Illegal in Oklahoma and 9 other states! Woooo
 
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