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(Talking Points Memo)   NRA: We can't catch every criminal out there, so why bother with background checks at all?   (livewire.talkingpointsmemo.com) divider line 382
    More: Dumbass, NRA, Wayne LaPierre, waste of time, background checks, crimes  
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2897 clicks; posted to Politics » on 29 Jan 2013 at 5:13 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-01-29 05:59:57 PM

Saiga410: ...but I would like to see solid data that a decent amount of sales would stop because of this before I make a call.


Even if it stopped one murder, is it so intrusive that we shouldn't use it at all?
 
2013-01-29 06:01:12 PM

GQueue: Ow! That was my feelings!: I have a fourth amendment right to privacy. What I own is none of your or the governments business. It's not a hard concept

I suppose you don't own a car then, seeing as how you have to register that thing you own with the government.


Only if I take said vehicle on a public roadway. I don't need to register it if it never leaves my property. Kinda like it works now with firearm possession and concealed carry.
 
2013-01-29 06:01:14 PM
You libtards keep failing to understand one simple fact: NRA members don't need intelligence, logic or reason to settle disputes. That's what the guns are for.
 
2013-01-29 06:02:21 PM
"When it comes to the issue of background checks, let's be honest - background checks will never be 'universal' - because criminals will never submit to them," LaPierre's testimony reads.

So where's he wrong? And where did he say to do away with all background checks altogether? Oh wait he isn't, and he didn't. He is asking people like subtard to be realistic with their expectations for gun-violence reduction before knee jerking useless laws into place.

But no, OOGABOOGA NRA HERPADERP! Right, subtard?
 
2013-01-29 06:02:45 PM
Why bother having babies? We're all going to die.
 
2013-01-29 06:02:54 PM

Shaggy_C: Funny, this same "banning things doesn't work" argument gets used time and time again in marijuana legalization threads. I guess it all depends on whether the potentially banned item is near and dear to your heart or not, eh?


You're so right. That's why all those senseless marijuana deaths will continue.
 
2013-01-29 06:03:54 PM

violentsalvation: "When it comes to the issue of background checks, let's be honest - background checks will never be 'universal' - because criminals will never submit to them," LaPierre's testimony reads.

So where's he wrong? And where did he say to do away with all background checks altogether? Oh wait he isn't, and he didn't. He is asking people like subtard to be realistic with their expectations for gun-violence reduction before knee jerking useless laws into place.

But no, OOGABOOGA NRA HERPADERP! Right, subtard?


The only real answer to gun violence is killing gun owners, that's the NRA position.
 
2013-01-29 06:04:46 PM

Ow! That was my feelings!: We are talking about two private individuals conducting a transaction. So, every gun owner needs a sellers license?


I bought a car in cash from a colleague privately awhile back. We went to the local DMV and did the whole title transfer thing, brought in the state paperwork and paid a few bucks for the title and transfer. Not really a hassle, and it was good to have a public record to protect both him and I. Even if a parent gives their car to their kid, there is a title transfer involved whether or not the fee was waved. Don't see why anyone should have a problem.
 
2013-01-29 06:06:08 PM
For those claiming registration wouldn't work because no one would comply, establish tort and/or criminal liability for someone who transfers a gun without registering the transfer if that gun is later used in a crime.

Problem solved.
 
2013-01-29 06:07:31 PM
Tigger:

You are required to notify the government about ownership of lots of things
. What's different about a gun.

(HINT: Because 2nd Amendment is not a valid answer)

I am? Vehicles if I use a public roadway, I guess, what else am I required to notify the government about owning?
 
2013-01-29 06:08:38 PM

Ow! That was my feelings!: Only if I take said vehicle on a public roadway. I don't need to register it if it never leaves my property.


So you're suggesting that you shouldn't have to have a registration to transfer a firearm--so long as it stays on your property? That's not terribly useful to me. If I buy a pistol from you I'd usually like to take it back to my property rather than keep it at yours. Like a car.

/Funny. I get a bill each year for my vehicle registration whether or not I take in on a public roadway.  Oh well.
 
2013-01-29 06:11:27 PM
gilgigamesh

For those claiming registration wouldn't work because no one would comply, establish tort and/or criminal liability for someone who transfers a gun without registering the transfer if that gun is later used in a crime.

Problem solved.


Ok, so...the federal government says I have to register my firearms. I don't. I sell one to you. You murder someone with the weapon. How exactly does that come back to me for prosecution? You tell the cops I sold you the weapon? How do you prove it? What ties me to this other than the word of a guy on the hook for murder?
 
2013-01-29 06:11:33 PM

Ow! That was my feelings!: I guess, what else am I required to notify the government about owning?


Wherever your body lives, regardless if you own it or not. You don't think you have to give the government's bill collectors your address? You're an interesting person!
 
2013-01-29 06:12:00 PM

Ow! That was my feelings!: Tigger:

You are required to notify the government about ownership of lots of things. What's different about a gun.

(HINT: Because 2nd Amendment is not a valid answer)

I am? Vehicles if I use a public roadway, I guess, what else am I required to notify the government about owning?


Let's start with your property itself.
 
2013-01-29 06:12:35 PM
Ow! That was my feelings!

"Only if I take said vehicle on a public roadway. I don't need to register it if it never leaves my property"


Uh, yes you do. If you purchase a vehicle your ownership is registered with the state no matter what ýou do with it.

You're thinking of a drivers license. That's different.
 
2013-01-29 06:12:37 PM

Somacandra: Ow! That was my feelings!: We are talking about two private individuals conducting a transaction. So, every gun owner needs a sellers license?

I bought a car in cash from a colleague privately awhile back. We went to the local DMV and did the whole title transfer thing, brought in the state paperwork and paid a few bucks for the title and transfer. Not really a hassle, and it was good to have a public record to protect both him and I. Even if a parent gives their car to their kid, there is a title transfer involved whether or not the fee was waved. Don't see why anyone should have a problem.


Again, you are talking about registration here. So, it's not just the background check that you want, it's also the firearm registration that comes with it. I explained upthread how to handle these checks without registration, which I would support. Registration? no farking way.
 
2013-01-29 06:13:21 PM
Grapes. Sour.
 
2013-01-29 06:14:34 PM

Ow! That was my feelings!: I am? Vehicles if I use a public roadway, I guess, what else am I required to notify the government about owning?


Land/Property.
Radioactivity.
Transgenic Organisms.
Controlled substances.
 
2013-01-29 06:14:39 PM

Mrbogey: Captain Darling: "When it comes to the issue of background checks, let's be honest - background checks will never be 'universal' - because criminals will never submit to them," LaPierre's testimony reads.


I think background checks are a good idea but he's right here, there's only so far you can or should go in trying to make society safe for people who care nothing for society. At some point you have to direct your efforts to taking violent people off the streets in the short term, and producing fewer of them in the long term.

You are absolutely correct, Darling.


You know what would help produce fewer people that do not care about society? GUNS! GUNS FOR EVERYONE! HEY, EVERYONE HAS GUNS AND COULD KILL YOU, BETTER BUY A GUN!
 
2013-01-29 06:15:41 PM
Everything that the NRA indicated they'd be open to in lieu of model regulation was a complete lie.

Since any negotiation with them or the politicians they own will be in bad faith, the only prudent thing to do is steamroll them and all of their members.
 
2013-01-29 06:16:09 PM

Ow! That was my feelings!: GQueue: Ow! That was my feelings!: I have a fourth amendment right to privacy. What I own is none of your or the governments business. It's not a hard concept

I suppose you don't own a car then, seeing as how you have to register that thing you own with the government.

Only if I take said vehicle on a public roadway. I don't need to register it if it never leaves my property. Kinda like it works now with firearm possession and concealed carry.


This is actually a falsehood as well. In fact, when i was in traffic court a few weeks ago, someone unsuccessfully argued their registration missing ticket using this argument exactly.
 
2013-01-29 06:16:21 PM
On Fark no one can hear you scream.
 
2013-01-29 06:17:01 PM

Ow! That was my feelings!: Again, you are talking about registration here. So, it's not just the background check that you want, it's also the firearm registration that comes with it. I explained upthread how to handle these checks without registration, which I would support. Registration? no farking way.


You wouldn't believe the training I have to undergo and the forms I have to fill out to use tiny amounts of radioactivity. You know why I have to do it? Because radioactivity might hurt people! Whoa.
 
2013-01-29 06:17:13 PM

Philip Francis Queeg: Ow! That was my feelings!: Tigger:

You are required to notify the government about ownership of lots of things. What's different about a gun.

(HINT: Because 2nd Amendment is not a valid answer)

I am? Vehicles if I use a public roadway, I guess, what else am I required to notify the government about owning?

Let's start with your property itself.


Boats, planes, businesses, children...
 
2013-01-29 06:17:36 PM
In apposing background checks the NRA is showing their hand. This is clear proof that they only care about gun sales. They don't care about gun owners, only the manufacturers.
 
2013-01-29 06:17:38 PM

HotWingConspiracy: Everything that the NRA indicated they'd be open to in lieu of model regulation was a complete lie.

Since any negotiation with them or the politicians they own will be in bad faith, the only prudent thing to do is steamroll them and all of their members.


I think they are still in favor of banning violent video games.
 
2013-01-29 06:17:40 PM

violentsalvation: "When it comes to the issue of background checks, let's be honest - background checks will never be 'universal' - because criminals will never submit to them," LaPierre's testimony reads.

So where's he wrong? And where did he say to do away with all background checks altogether? Oh wait he isn't, and he didn't. He is asking people like subtard to be realistic with their expectations for gun-violence reduction before knee jerking useless laws into place.

But no, OOGABOOGA NRA HERPADERP! Right, subtard?


U mad.
 
2013-01-29 06:18:04 PM

Ow! That was my feelings!: Darth_Lukecash: Ow! That was my feelings!: vernonFL: Ow! That was my feelings!: How do you enforce universal background checks?

Well, for one thing, you make sure all gun sellers have licenses, and you make them keep records and you audit them to see who they are selling to.

Right now we don't even do that.

We are talking about two private individuals conducting a transaction. So, every gun owner needs a sellers license?

There should be a fee that the buyer pays for the government to run a background check.

Regulation on a dangerous equipment should not be considered an infringement.

Your gonna be relying on individual's 'voluntarily' submitting to the system. I would suggest to anyone that supports this idea to make the checks as easy, simple, and cheap as possible.
An example:
I wish to sell a firearm to John Doe. I pick up the phone and call the number, give to the Cop on the other end his name, dob, ssn, whatever. The Cop checks John Doe, finds nothing, says "OK to sell"

THAT'S IT!!!! That is all you need. Trying to turn universal checks into a registration scheme is gonna guarantee low compliance. In fact, that might be the poison pill that kills it in Congress.


Registering/ licences is part of democracy. You can still own guns, we just need to keep track of them. Your auto is kept track of.

A universal check is needed because this would be a federal program. There would be a fee needed, unless you support a tax to pay for this check.

Registration is not a bad thing if everyone had to do it. Only when some people have to do it.
 
2013-01-29 06:18:27 PM
Friend of my dad once got pulled over, started complaining to the cop about how there were other drivers speeding and while he was the one who got pulled over. Cop replied "Ever been fishing?" Guy said yes, cop said, "You catch all the fish?"

Lack of perfection is a bullshiat/lazy/whinging reason to not try.
 
2013-01-29 06:18:40 PM

Ow! That was my feelings!: Somacandra: Ow! That was my feelings!: We are talking about two private individuals conducting a transaction. So, every gun owner needs a sellers license?

I bought a car in cash from a colleague privately awhile back. We went to the local DMV and did the whole title transfer thing, brought in the state paperwork and paid a few bucks for the title and transfer. Not really a hassle, and it was good to have a public record to protect both him and I. Even if a parent gives their car to their kid, there is a title transfer involved whether or not the fee was waved. Don't see why anyone should have a problem.

Again, you are talking about registration here. So, it's not just the background check that you want, it's also the firearm registration that comes with it. I explained upthread how to handle these checks without registration, which I would support. Registration? no farking way.


You aren't required to have a license plate on a car that doesn't travel on a public road, but if you own a car it is registered to you with the state.
 
2013-01-29 06:19:13 PM

gilgigamesh: Ow! That was my feelings!

"Only if I take said vehicle on a public roadway. I don't need to register it if it never leaves my property"


Uh, yes you do. If you purchase a vehicle your ownership is registered with the state no matter what ýou do with it.

You're thinking of a drivers license. That's different.


I don't believe that is true in my state. Just left a msg for my cousin, he's a rancher, he would know. Willing to accept I *might* be mistaken on the vehicle registration thing. Kinda getting off topic, anyway.
 
2013-01-29 06:19:31 PM

Dammit-Hi: I love the term "Law Abiding Gun Owners." If I'm not mistaken the orange haired idiot who shot up the theater in Colorado was a law abiding gun owner, until he wasn't.


And then he was obviously crazy and why didn't they take his guns away from him?
 
2013-01-29 06:21:08 PM
Shhhhh... everyone calm down and just watch the NRA. They're finally coming out and publicly making big bold comments for everyone to see.
Just like their GOP friends who are leading the charge! Give then a little while and they'll spin into the derposphere soon enough too.
 
2013-01-29 06:21:11 PM

Shaggy_C: Funny, this same "banning things doesn't work" argument gets used time and time again in marijuana legalization threads. I guess it all depends on whether the potentially banned item is near and dear to your heart or not, eh?


How do you people manage to get "universal background checks" and "ban" confused every day?
 
2013-01-29 06:21:56 PM

gilgigamesh: Ow! That was my feelings!: Somacandra: Ow! That was my feelings!: We are talking about two private individuals conducting a transaction. So, every gun owner needs a sellers license?

I bought a car in cash from a colleague privately awhile back. We went to the local DMV and did the whole title transfer thing, brought in the state paperwork and paid a few bucks for the title and transfer. Not really a hassle, and it was good to have a public record to protect both him and I. Even if a parent gives their car to their kid, there is a title transfer involved whether or not the fee was waved. Don't see why anyone should have a problem.

Again, you are talking about registration here. So, it's not just the background check that you want, it's also the firearm registration that comes with it. I explained upthread how to handle these checks without registration, which I would support. Registration? no farking way.

You aren't required to have a license plate on a car that doesn't travel on a public road, but if you own a car it is registered to you with the state.


Ah, that might be where I failed. licensing =/= registration
 
2013-01-29 06:21:58 PM

Facetious_Speciest: gilgigamesh

For those claiming registration wouldn't work because no one would comply, establish tort and/or criminal liability for someone who transfers a gun without registering the transfer if that gun is later used in a crime.

Problem solved.

Ok, so...the federal government says I have to register my firearms. I don't. I sell one to you. You murder someone with the weapon. How exactly does that come back to me for prosecution? You tell the cops I sold you the weapon? How do you prove it? What ties me to this other than the word of a guy on the hook for murder?


No, the fire arm is registered to you.  You sell it to me, and when you do, you notify the state of the sale.  Your failure to do so is a crime if the gun later turns up as a murder weapon.  Also, the victims can sue you for wrongful death.

Of course, if the gun is stolen, a police report showing you reported the gun as stolen would be an absolute defense.
 
2013-01-29 06:22:15 PM

Ow! That was my feelings!: Tigger:

You are required to notify the government about ownership of lots of things. What's different about a gun.

(HINT: Because 2nd Amendment is not a valid answer)

I am? Vehicles if I use a public roadway, I guess, what else am I required to notify the government about owning?


How about land, or other things that the government charges taxes on owning?
 
2013-01-29 06:22:27 PM

GQueue: Ow! That was my feelings!: I have a fourth amendment right to privacy. What I own is none of your or the governments business. It's not a hard concept

I suppose you don't own a car then, seeing as how you have to register that thing you own with the government.


The government also knows I own two houses! Whar privacy???? Whar?!??!?
 
2013-01-29 06:22:28 PM

MyEnamine: In apposing background checks the NRA is showing their hand. This is clear proof that they only care about gun sales. They don't care about gun owners, only the manufacturers.


I have never understood this argument. Used firearms are transacted at many times the rate of new ones (no I don't have evidence, simply an observation), but the NRA's only purpose is to sell new ones.

None of my firearms were purchased new, to the direct benefit of no manufacturer.
 
2013-01-29 06:22:39 PM

enry: We've beeen able to make cars safer without banning them.


The only thing that can stop a bad guy with a car is a good guy with a car.
 
2013-01-29 06:23:34 PM

PanicMan: Philip Francis Queeg: Ow! That was my feelings!: Tigger:

You are required to notify the government about ownership of lots of things. What's different about a gun.

(HINT: Because 2nd Amendment is not a valid answer)

I am? Vehicles if I use a public roadway, I guess, what else am I required to notify the government about owning?

Let's start with your property itself.

Boats, planes, businesses, children...


Pets. Livestock?
 
2013-01-29 06:23:58 PM

Darth_Lukecash: Ow! That was my feelings!: Darth_Lukecash: Ow! That was my feelings!: vernonFL: Ow! That was my feelings!: How do you enforce universal background checks?

Well, for one thing, you make sure all gun sellers have licenses, and you make them keep records and you audit them to see who they are selling to.

Right now we don't even do that.

We are talking about two private individuals conducting a transaction. So, every gun owner needs a sellers license?

There should be a fee that the buyer pays for the government to run a background check.

Regulation on a dangerous equipment should not be considered an infringement.

Your gonna be relying on individual's 'voluntarily' submitting to the system. I would suggest to anyone that supports this idea to make the checks as easy, simple, and cheap as possible.
An example:
I wish to sell a firearm to John Doe. I pick up the phone and call the number, give to the Cop on the other end his name, dob, ssn, whatever. The Cop checks John Doe, finds nothing, says "OK to sell"

THAT'S IT!!!! That is all you need. Trying to turn universal checks into a registration scheme is gonna guarantee low compliance. In fact, that might be the poison pill that kills it in Congress.

Registering/ licences is part of democracy. You can still own guns, we just need to keep track of them. Your auto is kept track of.

A universal check is needed because this would be a federal program. There would be a fee needed, unless you support a tax to pay for this check.

Registration is not a bad thing if everyone had to do it. Only when some people have to do it.


Well, I respecfully disagree and will oppose any registration scheme.
 
2013-01-29 06:25:05 PM

Ow! That was my feelings!: gilgigamesh: Ow! That was my feelings!: Somacandra: Ow! That was my feelings!: We are talking about two private individuals conducting a transaction. So, every gun owner needs a sellers license?

I bought a car in cash from a colleague privately awhile back. We went to the local DMV and did the whole title transfer thing, brought in the state paperwork and paid a few bucks for the title and transfer. Not really a hassle, and it was good to have a public record to protect both him and I. Even if a parent gives their car to their kid, there is a title transfer involved whether or not the fee was waved. Don't see why anyone should have a problem.

Again, you are talking about registration here. So, it's not just the background check that you want, it's also the firearm registration that comes with it. I explained upthread how to handle these checks without registration, which I would support. Registration? no farking way.

You aren't required to have a license plate on a car that doesn't travel on a public road, but if you own a car it is registered to you with the state.

Ah, that might be where I failed. licensing =/= registration


Easy mistake to make.  I am pretty sure all road-capable vehicles have to be registered in all fifty states.  But yeah, if you don't want to drive it on public roads a license plate is not required (nor is insurance, which is also compulsory otherwise).
 
2013-01-29 06:25:12 PM

gilgigamesh: Of course, if the gun is stolen, a police report showing you reported the gun as stolen would be an absolute defense.


That's not an absolute defense, since you could have lied about it being stolen.
 
2013-01-29 06:25:48 PM

Dave Lister: MyEnamine: In apposing background checks the NRA is showing their hand. This is clear proof that they only care about gun sales. They don't care about gun owners, only the manufacturers.

I have never understood this argument. Used firearms are transacted at many times the rate of new ones (no I don't have evidence, simply an observation), but the NRA's only purpose is to sell new ones.

None of my firearms were purchased new, to the direct benefit of no manufacturer.


Ever known someone to sell a gun in order to buy a gun?
 
2013-01-29 06:25:54 PM

Ow! That was my feelings!: Tigger:

You are required to notify the government about ownership of lots of things. What's different about a gun.

(HINT: Because 2nd Amendment is not a valid answer)

I am? Vehicles if I use a public roadway, I guess, what else am I required to notify the government about owning?


Your house. Your bicycle, your dog, your boat, your wife (even though you don't own her), yourself when you get your SSN, your airplane, your tickets to fly in an airplane (the airline does this for you), your real estate...etc.
 
2013-01-29 06:26:16 PM

Ow! That was my feelings!: Well, I respecfully disagree and will oppose any registration scheme.


Why?
 
2013-01-29 06:26:25 PM

Dave Lister: MyEnamine: In apposing background checks the NRA is showing their hand. This is clear proof that they only care about gun sales. They don't care about gun owners, only the manufacturers.

I have never understood this argument. Used firearms are transacted at many times the rate of new ones (no I don't have evidence, simply an observation), but the NRA's only purpose is to sell new ones.

None of my firearms were purchased new, to the direct benefit of no manufacturer.


Are you SERIOUSLY trying to make this argument? Do you not see the major flaw?
 
2013-01-29 06:26:43 PM

Ow! That was my feelings!: Darth_Lukecash: Ow! That was my feelings!: Darth_Lukecash: Ow! That was my feelings!: vernonFL: Ow! That was my feelings!: How do you enforce universal background checks?

Well, for one thing, you make sure all gun sellers have licenses, and you make them keep records and you audit them to see who they are selling to.

Right now we don't even do that.

We are talking about two private individuals conducting a transaction. So, every gun owner needs a sellers license?

There should be a fee that the buyer pays for the government to run a background check.

Regulation on a dangerous equipment should not be considered an infringement.

Your gonna be relying on individual's 'voluntarily' submitting to the system. I would suggest to anyone that supports this idea to make the checks as easy, simple, and cheap as possible.
An example:
I wish to sell a firearm to John Doe. I pick up the phone and call the number, give to the Cop on the other end his name, dob, ssn, whatever. The Cop checks John Doe, finds nothing, says "OK to sell"

THAT'S IT!!!! That is all you need. Trying to turn universal checks into a registration scheme is gonna guarantee low compliance. In fact, that might be the poison pill that kills it in Congress.

Registering/ licences is part of democracy. You can still own guns, we just need to keep track of them. Your auto is kept track of.

A universal check is needed because this would be a federal program. There would be a fee needed, unless you support a tax to pay for this check.

Registration is not a bad thing if everyone had to do it. Only when some people have to do it.

Well, I respecfully disagree and will oppose any registration scheme.


So you believe the government should not maintain records on who owns land, correct?
 
2013-01-29 06:27:06 PM
So Wayne is it cool to legalize weed because we can never stop everyone from growing or smuggling dope?
 
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