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(Slate)   The next wave of anti-Obama movies will be made by liberals, make Matt Damon appear less pompous   (slate.com ) divider line
    More: Interesting, President Obama, Matt Damon, An Inconvenient Truth, Alex Gibney, Jeremy Scahill, liberals, Sundance Film Festival  
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1797 clicks; posted to Politics » on 29 Jan 2013 at 12:56 PM (3 years ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-01-29 10:46:43 AM  
Now that Obama has been safely reelected he's fair game for criticism from his left. Most of these people wouldn't have touched him before November 2012.
 
2013-01-29 11:03:36 AM  
I'm a liberal, but don't get the drone outrage. Would people prefer US troops die rather than using hardware?
 
2013-01-29 11:16:24 AM  

Sybarite: Now that Obama has been safely reelected he's fair game for criticism from his left. Most of these people wouldn't have touched him before November 2012.


We lefties have been criticizing Obama and his Center-right administration for the last 4 years. It's hard to notice in all the wharrrgarble, though, since we only criticize the things we disagree with, not every time he eats crackers.
 
2013-01-29 11:18:05 AM  

Krieghund: Sybarite: Now that Obama has been safely reelected he's fair game for criticism from his left. Most of these people wouldn't have touched him before November 2012.

We lefties have been criticizing Obama and his Center-right administration for the last 4 years. It's hard to notice in all the wharrrgarble, though, since we only criticize the things we disagree with, not every time he eats crackers.


^^^^


simplicimus: I'm a liberal, but don't get the drone outrage. Would people prefer US troops die rather than using hardware?


the problem is when we use their weapons a little too freely and seem to be unable to hit actual combatants and instead like blowing up children.
 
2013-01-29 11:24:30 AM  

Krieghund: Sybarite: Now that Obama has been safely reelected he's fair game for criticism from his left. Most of these people wouldn't have touched him before November 2012.

We lefties have been criticizing Obama and his Center-right administration for the last 4 years. It's hard to notice in all the wharrrgarble, though, since we only criticize the things we disagree with, not every time he eats crackers.


To be fair, eating white people is kind of rude
 
2013-01-29 11:25:49 AM  

simplicimus: I'm a liberal, but don't get the drone outrage. Would people prefer US troops die rather than using hardware?


I think the criticism comes from the fact that the drone strikes often result in far more civilian casulaties (including women and children) than are officially reported. Apparently, they're not as surgical as we'd like them to appear to be, and Obama has increased strikes by a large amount.

Google "us drone strikes under Obama," and you'll get a bunch of articles detailing some of the criticism.

/personally sort of ambivalent on the issue
//like you said, I'd rather not put American soldiers in harm's way
///besides, no American really cares about foreign policy, anyway
 
2013-01-29 11:28:26 AM  

Krieghund: We lefties have been criticizing Obama and his Center-right administration for the last 4 years. It's hard to notice in all the wharrrgarble, though, since we only criticize the things we disagree with, not every time he eats crackers.


Center-right? Compared to a Marxist, maybe.


mahuika: not every time he eats crackers.

To be fair, eating white people is kind of rude


Ha!
 
2013-01-29 11:29:53 AM  

Hydra: simplicimus: I'm a liberal, but don't get the drone outrage. Would people prefer US troops die rather than using hardware?

I think the criticism comes from the fact that the drone strikes often result in far more civilian casulaties (including women and children) than are officially reported. Apparently, they're not as surgical as we'd like them to appear to be, and Obama has increased strikes by a large amount.

Google "us drone strikes under Obama," and you'll get a bunch of articles detailing some of the criticism.

/personally sort of ambivalent on the issue
//like you said, I'd rather not put American soldiers in harm's way
///besides, no American really cares about foreign policy, anyway


I think "civilian" is an outdated concept. Has been since WWII.
 
2013-01-29 11:31:23 AM  

Kazan: simplicimus: I'm a liberal, but don't get the drone outrage. Would people prefer US troops die rather than using hardware?

the problem is when we use their weapons a little too freely and seem to be unable to hit actual combatants and instead like blowing up children.


With regard to collateral, we have the same issue with live troops.

But I, too, am of a deeply divided mind over drone strikes.  Especially without a formal and Constitutional declaration of war.

And maybe that's the root of the drone issue, as well as others.  We're not even obeying our own laws when it comes to waging war.  It's all in the Executive's hands, thanks to Bush.  And I resent Obama's silence on it.  He wants that power?  Let him explain why.
 
2013-01-29 11:36:11 AM  
It's not hard to find Obama-bashing nonfiction these days-see last year's rightwing hit 2016: Obama's America, for instance...

encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com
 
2013-01-29 11:50:16 AM  

Krieghund: We lefties have been criticizing Obama and his Center-right administration for the last 4 years. It's hard to notice in all the wharrrgarble, though, since we only criticize the things we disagree with, not every time he eats crackers.



Actually that was really helpful to Obama. Every time someone from the right would accuse him of be a leftest he could point at the moonbats and say "See! They dont think I'm a leftest."
 
2013-01-29 11:52:59 AM  

The Stealth Hippopotamus: Krieghund: We lefties have been criticizing Obama and his Center-right administration for the last 4 years. It's hard to notice in all the wharrrgarble, though, since we only criticize the things we disagree with, not every time he eats crackers.


Actually that was really helpful to Obama. Every time someone from the right would accuse him of be a leftest he could point at the moonbats and say "See! They dont think I'm a leftest."


To my knowledge, I've never seen Obama do this. Could you please link me to an example of Obama providing far-left liberals as proof that he's not a liberal?
 
2013-01-29 12:04:04 PM  

The Stealth Hippopotamus: Krieghund: We lefties have been criticizing Obama and his Center-right administration for the last 4 years. It's hard to notice in all the wharrrgarble, though, since we only criticize the things we disagree with, not every time he eats crackers.


Actually that was really helpful to Obama. Every time someone from the right would accuse him of be a leftest he could point at the moonbats and say "See! They dont think I'm a leftest."


Reminds me how mainstream Republicans distanced themselves from the Birthers and Tea Baggers to show they aren't morons.... wait no, they embraced them. My bad

Back to whatever nonsensical point you were trying to make
 
2013-01-29 12:08:06 PM  

Diogenes: We're not even obeying our own laws when it comes to waging war.  It's all in the Executive's hands, thanks to Bush.


Just to be fair, undeclared wars were not invented by dubya. No congressional declaration of war for Korea or Vietnam either. Not that I disagree that war SHOULD only come with a congressional declaration, just hasn't been the case since the world wars.

As for the drone strikes, well collateral damage is always unfortunate, no matter the method. My biggest criticism of both Bush and Obama is that the war(s) have fairly poorly defined purposes. I've never been in the military, so I may be way off base here, but it seems to me that any war ought to have a pretty specific set of victory conditions, a way to "win" the war. A war on terrorism? Pretty lofty goal, but hardly something we can ever declare victory on. It's just like the war on drugs, open ended with no tangible and practically achievable goals. Though Obama was largely responsible for taking out bin laden, got to give him props for that.
 
2013-01-29 12:20:34 PM  

mahuika: To my knowledge, I've never seen Obama do this. Could you please link me to an example of Obama providing far-left liberals as proof that he's not a liberal?


Well I'm not going to find him calling anyone a moonbat. And I didn't mean to imply that is not a liberal. He's a proud liberal. But he tries to play more centrist. So he points to people to say that he is not that much of a liberal. Mostly you'll hear about how he angers his base by reaching over the aisle or something long that lines.
 
2013-01-29 12:36:17 PM  

The Stealth Hippopotamus: mahuika: To my knowledge, I've never seen Obama do this. Could you please link me to an example of Obama providing far-left liberals as proof that he's not a liberal?

Well I'm not going to find him calling anyone a moonbat. And I didn't mean to imply that is not a liberal. He's a proud liberal. But he tries to play more centrist. So he points to people to say that he is not that much of a liberal. Mostly you'll hear about how he angers his base by reaching over the aisle or something long that lines.


blogs.vso.org.uk

But please, go ahead and link to Obama responding to the charge that he is a "leftest" by saying he's not a liberal because far-leftists say he is center-right.
 
2013-01-29 12:40:41 PM  
As long as the accusations are fair and grounded on facts, I'm okay with that. One example is Obama's use of drones and shady track record on civil liberties.
 
2013-01-29 12:42:55 PM  

simplicimus: I'm a liberal, but don't get the drone outrage. Would people prefer US troops die rather than using hardware?


Your logic: "No drones = Increased Troop Deaths" is false. Also, keep in mind that civilians are dying from drones. Troops sign up for what they get into and very rarely sight a civilian in their scope and pull the trigger.
 
2013-01-29 12:44:10 PM  

Hydra: Krieghund: We lefties have been criticizing Obama and his Center-right administration for the last 4 years. It's hard to notice in all the wharrrgarble, though, since we only criticize the things we disagree with, not every time he eats crackers.

Center-right? Compared to a Marxist, maybe.


+1 for knowing what you're talking about
 
2013-01-29 12:47:19 PM  

Altair: simplicimus: I'm a liberal, but don't get the drone outrage. Would people prefer US troops die rather than using hardware?

Your logic: "No drones = Increased Troop Deaths" is false. Also, keep in mind that civilians are dying from drones. Troops sign up for what they get into and very rarely sight a civilian in their scope and pull the trigger.


Luckily, there were no civilians at Dresden, Hiroshima and Nagasaki. And I don't buy your premise. Troop actions mean more exposure to IEDs, equipment malfunctions, hostile fire and friendly fire.
 
2013-01-29 12:51:53 PM  

simplicimus: Altair: simplicimus: I'm a liberal, but don't get the drone outrage. Would people prefer US troops die rather than using hardware?

Your logic: "No drones = Increased Troop Deaths" is false. Also, keep in mind that civilians are dying from drones. Troops sign up for what they get into and very rarely sight a civilian in their scope and pull the trigger.

Luckily, there were no civilians at Dresden, Hiroshima and Nagasaki. And I don't buy your premise. Troop actions mean more exposure to IEDs, equipment malfunctions, hostile fire and friendly fire.


Why bring up the bombs? Of course there were civilians. How about no action? It's so crazy, it just might be working for other non-aggressive countries.
 
2013-01-29 12:52:30 PM  

Altair: our logic: "No drones = Increased Troop Deaths" is false. Also, keep in mind that civilians are dying from drones. Troops sign up for what they get into and very rarely sight a civilian in their scope and pull the trigger.


Bullshiat. Collateral fatalities from civilians happened all the time in the initial phases of Afghanistan and Iraq. It's what happens when you have an enemy willing to hide behind innocent people to use their deaths as political ammunition, and willing to set up shop in schools, orphanages, and hospitals. Oh, and wear their clothes in the style of the local civilian population.

These wars were dirty wars. And I'm not talking about the stupidity and illegitimacy of the Iraq war. These were dirty fights in the exact meaning of the word. Whether you like it or not, drones are going to see more and more use in the wars of the future because there IS no political fallout from their loss, like with an American soldier. There's no body to take a photo of flying into Dover. No crying wife or children to make it onto CNN or Fox. It's a machine. It's loss is strictly one that's financial, not human.
 
2013-01-29 12:53:53 PM  

simplicimus: Troop actions mean more exposure to IEDs, equipment malfunctions, hostile fire and friendly fire.


This is accurate.

simplicimus: Luckily, there were no civilians at Dresden, Hiroshima and Nagasaki.


This however is an apples to oranges comparison. The point of those attacks, as well as the Blitz on London and several other attacks of that period were specifically to cause high rates of civilian casualties. They were trying to convince everyone that the cost of war was more than just the volunteers on the remote front. Our philosophy on what's acceptable has changed since then.
 
2013-01-29 12:56:59 PM  

unlikely: This however is an apples to oranges comparison. The point of those attacks, as well as the Blitz on London and several other attacks of that period were specifically to cause high rates of civilian casualties. They were trying to convince everyone that the cost of war was more than just the volunteers on the remote front. Our philosophy on what's acceptable has changed since then.


In addition to this, the technology of the day was vastly different. We carpet bombed factories and industrial areas for a reason - because the idea of accuracy according to the RAF or the USAAF was placing the bomb within a block or so of the actual target. The technology simply didn't exist to, for the most part aside from very specific and special weapons - to precision guide or place a bomb on a target.

Vietnam, on the other hand, taught the USAF an important lesson on precision munitions - It's not enough to precisely bomb a target important to an enemy war effort with few civilian casualties using laser guided munitions. You have to demoralize and ruin their will to fight as well.
 
2013-01-29 12:58:51 PM  

Krieghund: Sybarite: Now that Obama has been safely reelected he's fair game for criticism from his left. Most of these people wouldn't have touched him before November 2012.

We lefties have been criticizing Obama and his Center-right administration for the last 4 years. It's hard to notice in all the wharrrgarble, though, since we only criticize the things we disagree with, not every time he eats crackers.


OMG Obama is eating white people!!!! HE IS MUSLIN CANNIBAL!
 
2013-01-29 01:02:09 PM  

Krieghund: Sybarite: Now that Obama has been safely reelected he's fair game for criticism from his left. Most of these people wouldn't have touched him before November 2012.

We lefties have been criticizing Obama and his Center-right administration for the last 4 years. It's hard to notice in all the wharrrgarble, though, since we only criticize the things we disagree with, not every time he eats crackers.


I feel like a douche writing this, but I've only been pro-Obama because he wasn't a gloves off agenda pushing whore. Republicans are always at odds with him about things that frankly they'll lose in the end, ie-Gay Marriage, and completely cool with the things liberal loathe about him, ie--Drone Strikes, NDAA, Prosecuting Journalists.

Sorry. I wrote this in another thread too. This point makes so so farking angry.
 
2013-01-29 01:02:37 PM  

simplicimus: I'm a liberal, but don't get the drone outrage. Would people prefer US troops die rather than using hardware?


Too many civilian casualties, which many feel feeds the cycle of extremism against the US.

It would help if the targets didn't surround themselves with women and children.
 
2013-01-29 01:02:42 PM  

Hydra: Krieghund: We lefties have been criticizing Obama and his Center-right administration for the last 4 years. It's hard to notice in all the wharrrgarble, though, since we only criticize the things we disagree with, not every time he eats crackers.

Center-right? Compared to a Marxist, maybe.


Center-right? Compared to a leftest, maybe.

Isn't this just tautology?
 
2013-01-29 01:03:03 PM  

simplicimus: I'm a liberal, but don't get the drone outrage. Would people prefer US troops die rather than using hardware?


Republicans would.
 
2013-01-29 01:04:42 PM  
That might be nice, some facts might be contained in them.

Sorry, but OBAMA IS A KENYAN MARXIST ENGAGING IN TRIBAL WARFARE AGAINST CAPITALISM isn't a doc I'm going to ever take seriously.
 
2013-01-29 01:06:37 PM  

The Stealth Hippopotamus: Krieghund: We lefties have been criticizing Obama and his Center-right administration for the last 4 years. It's hard to notice in all the wharrrgarble, though, since we only criticize the things we disagree with, not every time he eats crackers.


Actually that was really helpful to Obama. Every time someone from the right would accuse him of be a leftest he could point at the moonbats and say "See! They dont think I'm a leftest."


That makes no sense. And what the fark is a leftest?

nigeltufnel.jpg

"What's wrong with being lefty?"
 
2013-01-29 01:06:58 PM  

meat0918: simplicimus: I'm a liberal, but don't get the drone outrage. Would people prefer US troops die rather than using hardware?

Too many civilian casualties, which many feel feeds the cycle of extremism against the US.

It would help if the targets didn't surround themselves with women and children.


Yeah, it would be nice if the terrorists would wear uniforms and line up in ranks for formal combat. But that's not the way it works.
 
2013-01-29 01:08:02 PM  

impaler: Hydra: Krieghund: We lefties have been criticizing Obama and his Center-right administration for the last 4 years. It's hard to notice in all the wharrrgarble, though, since we only criticize the things we disagree with, not every time he eats crackers.

Center-right? Compared to a Marxist, maybe.

Center-right? Compared to a leftest, maybe.

Isn't this just tautology?


I dont know but I do consider Bush to be center left because he is a good distance to the left of me
 
2013-01-29 01:09:14 PM  

simplicimus: Yeah, it would be nice if the terrorists would wear uniforms and line up in ranks for formal combat. But that's not the way it works.


Until they do, the idea that no civilian casualties are to be had is a joke. It's a damned-either-way situation, and the nature of fighting a Guerilla war against a modern, media-savvy opponent. The difference is, while the US gives a damn about killing civilians, they have no qualms on doing so. In fact, it's the Modus Operandi of many established terrorist groups to surround themselves with as many innocents as possible, so that IF they were attacked, the media would be outraged at it.
 
2013-01-29 01:09:26 PM  

Hydra: simplicimus: I'm a liberal, but don't get the drone outrage. Would people prefer US troops die rather than using hardware?

I think the criticism comes from the fact that the drone strikes often result in far more civilian casulaties (including women and children) than are officially reported. Apparently, they're not as surgical as we'd like them to appear to be, and Obama has increased strikes by a large amount.

Google "us drone strikes under Obama," and you'll get a bunch of articles detailing some of the criticism.

/personally sort of ambivalent on the issue
//like you said, I'd rather not put American soldiers in harm's way
///besides, no American really cares about foreign policy, anyway


Um. . .

At the time of this writing, the US is believed to have conducted 344 total strikes in Pakistan, 52 between June 17, 2004 and January 2, 2009 (under President Bush),[62] and 292 strikes between January 23, 2009 and September 2, 2012 (under President Obama).[63] Those numbers, which TBIJ has pieced together from available media reports,[64] may underestimate the total number of strikes, especially during the early years of the drone program.

Link

Link
 
2013-01-29 01:11:02 PM  

Saiga410: I dont know but I do consider Bush to be center left because he is a good distance to the left of me

I'm now ashamed to admit that I vote for him twice and cheered as he ran the nation into a whole.


/ftfy
/No, no, no, let me guess. You're a "libertarian."
 
2013-01-29 01:11:55 PM  
Matt Damon Sad?
 
2013-01-29 01:12:34 PM  

simplicimus: I'm a liberal, but don't get the drone outrage. Would people prefer US troops die rather than using hardware?


I see your argument, hell I've MADE your argument, but to play devil's advocate: To some extent? Yes. War SHOULD have a toll, it SHOULD be something we embark on lightly, it SHOULD be something where we factor in "How many able-bodied people are we willing to lose to do this?" Rather than "PRESS BUTTON KILL PEOPLE"
 
2013-01-29 01:13:57 PM  

mahuika: But please, go ahead and link to Obama responding to the charge that he is a "leftest" by saying he's not a liberal because far-leftists say he is center-right.




http://www.politico.com/politico44/2012/12/obama-im-not-a-socialist-1 5 1997.html.

hell in the 80s I'd be a Republican.
 
2013-01-29 01:15:07 PM  
Matt Damon still looks pumpass to me.
 
2013-01-29 01:17:27 PM  

Saiga410: I dont know but I do consider Bush to be center left because he is a good distance to the left of me


Have you consider the possibility that you may not be in the center of the political spectrum?
 
2013-01-29 01:18:33 PM  

Empty Matchbook: simplicimus: I'm a liberal, but don't get the drone outrage. Would people prefer US troops die rather than using hardware?

I see your argument, hell I've MADE your argument, but to play devil's advocate: To some extent? Yes. War SHOULD have a toll, it SHOULD be something we embark on lightly, it SHOULD be something where we factor in "How many able-bodied people are we willing to lose to do this?" Rather than "PRESS BUTTON KILL PEOPLE"


Let me go on record as having opposed both of the pointless wars we're engaged in. On the other hand, the future of war will hardware based, not troop based. Our men and women should not die in pointless exercises.
 
2013-01-29 01:19:10 PM  

Hydra: simplicimus: I'm a liberal, but don't get the drone outrage. Would people prefer US troops die rather than using hardware?

I think the criticism comes from the fact that the drone strikes often result in far more civilian casulaties (including women and children) than are officially reported. Apparently, they're not as surgical as we'd like them to appear to be, and Obama has increased strikes by a large amount.


When the target is in the same building, if not room, as the target, it's kind of hard to be THAT surgical with a missile. When you target an enemy that does not hold the same regard for 'innocents' that you do, there is going to be a lot of collateral damage.

I'm not saying that the ends justify the means, it's just a fact of life in the 'war on terror'. But it's not very different than fighting crime. There will always be crime, so does that mean the police are useless and we should get rid of them? Hardly. We will never win the 'war on terror', but I don't think that means we should abandon efforts to combat/prevent it whenever we can. I don't know if that means continued drone strikes are justified or not... I'm just glad I'm not in charge. None of the options are good as far as I can tell.
 
2013-01-29 01:20:41 PM  
FTFA: It's not hard to find Obama-bashing nonfiction these days-see last year's rightwing hit 2016: Obama's America, for instance

I'm sorry, I thought you said nonfiction.
 
2013-01-29 01:21:50 PM  

Diogenes: But I, too, am of a deeply divided mind over drone strikes.  Especially without a formal and Constitutional declaration of war.


nekom: Just to be fair, undeclared wars were not invented by dubya. No congressional declaration of war for Korea or Vietnam either. Not that I disagree that war SHOULD only come with a congressional declaration, just hasn't been the case since the world wars.


Interesting fact - the United States has only formally declared war on five occasions, against a total of ten enemy nations. Every other war we've engaged in throughout our history, including both our bloodiest (the Civil War) and our longest (Afghanistan, unless you count the decades-long state of war that existed between the United States and the Apache Nation) has been undeclared.
 
2013-01-29 01:24:36 PM  

theknuckler_33: When the target iswomen and children are in the same building, if not room, as the target, it's kind of hard to be THAT surgical with a missile.


FTFM

/dammit
 
2013-01-29 01:25:52 PM  

simplicimus: I think "civilian" is an outdated concept. Has been since WWII.


The people we have been killing using drones are citizens of a government that has alligned themselves with the USA. The people we are killing are supposed to be our friends. We are turning the populace into our enemies.


simplicimus: Luckily, there were no civilians at Dresden, Hiroshima and Nagasaki.


See above.

BronyMedic: The difference is, while the US gives a damn about killing civilians


Why do you believe this to be true?
 
2013-01-29 01:26:01 PM  

simplicimus: I'm a liberal, but don't get the drone outrage. Would people prefer US troops die rather than using hardware?


Or maybe, stay with me here, they just think that murdering Pakistanis by the busload is a thing we don't need to bother doing at all.
 
2013-01-29 01:27:13 PM  

Hydra: Center-right? Compared to a Marxist, maybe.


Compared with anybody. His foreign policy has been pretty right wing (see: drone strikes), his signature health care reform is a market-based approach rather than the single-payer most actual leftists have been clamoring for, his stimulus package was 1/3 tax cuts, his financial reforms could have gone a lot further... the guy is center right, period.

What you fail to realize is that, by and large, the Democrats have become a center-right party over the last 2-3 decades, and the Republicans have become an extremist far-right party over the same time. Thanks to Fox News and its ilk poisoning the well and making "liberal" a dirty word, the Overton window has moved significantly to the right, and that has left those of us who actually are on the left without genuine representation of our views in government.
 
2013-01-29 01:29:24 PM  

The Stealth Hippopotamus: mahuika: But please, go ahead and link to Obama responding to the charge that he is a "leftest" by saying he's not a liberal because far-leftists say he is center-right.

http://www.politico.com/politico44/2012/12/obama-im-not-a-socialist-1 5 1997.html.

hell in the 80s I'd be a Republican.


Okay, so that is Obama saying he is not a Socialist, but not for the reasons you stated. I can find dozens of examples of Obama comparing himself to the Republican party under Reagan.

You claimed that "every time" someone calls Obama left-wing, he points out that people on the far left think he's right-wing, so he must be centrist. Link?
 
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