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(Washington Post)   Republican strategy on immigration: Let's wait until they are dead to legalize them   (washingtonpost.com) divider line 40
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1237 clicks; posted to Politics » on 29 Jan 2013 at 10:36 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-01-29 10:39:07 AM
So, the Mormon strategy?
 
2013-01-29 10:42:16 AM

Witty_Retort: So, the Mormon strategy?


Baptize them too for good measure
 
2013-01-29 10:42:40 AM
Provide a pathway for immigrants to legally work while going through the immigration process and heavily fine businesses that hire illegals.
 
2013-01-29 10:47:49 AM

Citrate1007: Provide a pathway for immigrants to legally work while going through the immigration process and heavily fine businesses that hire illegals.


why do you hate small business?

but seriously, employer sanctions is a non-starter with republicans, regardless of what they say...you will never reduce the incentive to come over illegally without it. add that to the racism that's endemic in america and you have a perfect storm of interest meeting ideology.

i believe that our immigration system needs to be reformed, but i'll believe that it's going to happen only when i see it.
 
2013-01-29 10:48:24 AM
Democrat strategy: let run ads the newspapers in Mexico offering free everything, and then naturalizing them all right before the election.
 
2013-01-29 10:48:50 AM
The process in receiving a green card, and ultimately citizenship, is far too cumbersome and bureaucratic and should be streamlined for those who are already here. It shouldn't take a decade for a Mexican who knows more about US history than your average naturally born high schooler to become a citizen. People who want to come here to work/start businesses should be allowed to do so.

The borders should also be secured to ensure criminals aren't entering the country over a porous border.

I don't see what's so hard to understand about this.
 
2013-01-29 10:50:29 AM
This is their last chance to not destroy any remaining credibility they have as a national party. Lets watch and see how they perform...
 
2013-01-29 10:54:42 AM
Headline: "Republican strategy..."

Article: "Bipartisan committee..."

Shame on you Subby.

Both sides are bad so vote....
 
2013-01-29 10:56:04 AM

Hydra: The process in receiving a green card, and ultimately citizenship, is far too cumbersome and bureaucratic and should be streamlined for those who are already here. It shouldn't take a decade for a Mexican who knows more about US history than your average naturally born high schooler to become a citizen. People who want to come here to work/start businesses should be allowed to do so.

The borders should also be secured to ensure criminals aren't entering the country over a porous border.

I don't see what's so hard to understand about this.


The fact that if we continually have reams of undocumented immigrants that we give any sort of "cut the line" "amnesty" to, it incentivizes still more waves of undocumented immigrants to come on over and try to run out the clock until the next wave of "Fine, whatever -you're Americans if you pay us and pretend you're sorry" legislation.

That's the thinking, anyway. I think that if you're willing to risk whatever penalties, risk your own life/health to make the trip over (for Canadians, it may not be so hard as long as you've got a good jacket, eh?) and live as a second-class citizen for long enough, you've proven you love America warts and all. Most immigrants - legal or not - have a greater appreciation for what America is and does than those of us born here.

// I guess your feelings on "repressive dictatorships" are tempered after you've lived in one
 
2013-01-29 10:56:58 AM

ricochet4: why do you hate small business?

but seriously, employer sanctions is a non-starter with republicans, regardless of what they say...you will never reduce the incentive to come over illegally without it.


Employer sanctions never work and never will work.


add that to the racism that's endemic in america

Good god, just stop now while you're ahead.

You honestly think racism is unique to America? Try working in Mexico as a white guy or in China as an immigrant from Japan/South Korea or in ANY of the "progressive" western European countries who're actively trying to stem the flow of immigration from eastern European states (see: the greenlit Fark thread about the UK trashing itself to discourage flows from Eastern states).

If you overstay your work visa in France as an American, you'd be deported in a bleeding heartbeat.

So just stop it.
 
2013-01-29 10:57:05 AM

Hydra: The process in receiving a green card, and ultimately citizenship, is far too cumbersome and bureaucratic and should be streamlined for those who are already here. It shouldn't take a decade for a Mexican who knows more about US history than your average naturally born high schooler to become a citizen. People who want to come here to work/start businesses should be allowed to do so.

The borders should also be secured to ensure criminals aren't entering the country over a porous border.

I don't see what's so hard to understand about this.


Holy shiat, Hydra said something that made sense.
 
2013-01-29 10:57:57 AM

SevenizGud: Democrat strategy: let run ads the newspapers in Mexico offering free everything, and then naturalizing them all right before the election.


This here, folks, is some really bad trolling. You should feel bad.
 
2013-01-29 10:58:03 AM

SevenizGud: Democrat strategy: let run ads the newspapers in Mexico offering free everything, and then naturalizing them all right before the election.


This sentence I don't even understood: angry get in way of the typing?
 
2013-01-29 10:59:47 AM
This lead off on the national news last night. The big points appeared to be allowing undocumented immigrants to work in the US while they applied for legal citizenship, but they have to go to the "end of the line", submit to detailed background checks, and it would take 15 years to complete. Oh, and severe fines for companies hiring "illegal" immigrants and more money thrown at sealing the border.

FIFTEEN YEARS? No wonder so many immigrants decide it's not worth the effort; how long does it take to become a citizen of other countries?
 
2013-01-29 11:00:43 AM

ricochet4: Citrate1007: Provide a pathway for immigrants to legally work while going through the immigration process and heavily fine businesses that hire illegals.

why do you hate small business?

but seriously, employer sanctions is a non-starter with republicans, regardless of what they say...you will never reduce the incentive to come over illegally without it. add that to the racism that's endemic in america and you have a perfect storm of interest meeting ideology.

i believe that our immigration system needs to be reformed, but i'll believe that it's going to happen only when i see it.


My point exactly.......which is why the GOP is farked when it comes to immigration. It's the same with the deficit, they want cuts but can't bring themselves to take money away from their DoD non-noncompetitive contractors.
 
2013-01-29 11:08:22 AM

Dr Dreidel: Hydra: The process in receiving a green card, and ultimately citizenship, is far too cumbersome and bureaucratic and should be streamlined for those who are already here. It shouldn't take a decade for a Mexican who knows more about US history than your average naturally born high schooler to become a citizen. People who want to come here to work/start businesses should be allowed to do so.

The borders should also be secured to ensure criminals aren't entering the country over a porous border.

I don't see what's so hard to understand about this.

The fact that if we continually have reams of undocumented immigrants that we give any sort of "cut the line" "amnesty" to, it incentivizes still more waves of undocumented immigrants to come on over and try to run out the clock until the next wave of "Fine, whatever -you're Americans if you pay us and pretend you're sorry" legislation.

That's the thinking, anyway. I think that if you're willing to risk whatever penalties, risk your own life/health to make the trip over (for Canadians, it may not be so hard as long as you've got a good jacket, eh?) and live as a second-class citizen for long enough, you've proven you love America warts and all. Most immigrants - legal or not - have a greater appreciation for what America is and does than those of us born here.

// I guess your feelings on "repressive dictatorships" are tempered after you've lived in one


Which is why I think the best compromise that should get broad, Congressionally passable support is a three-pronged approach:

1) provide adequate security for the borders (placates Republicans)

2) provide a simple path to citizenship/a green card for currently undocumented immigrants (placates Democrats)

3) overhaul the immigration and naturalization process to cut out bureaucracy and redundancy in the process for those already mired in the process and allow foreign labor to flow safely and freely across the border (should placate... well, everybody)

I'm thinking whatever compromise is eventually worked out will have to resemble that kind of approach in some regard or another, or I don't see how it gets out of Congress and onto the President's desk to sign it. And who knows - something like that might ACTUALLY fix, or take steps toward fixing, the problem.
 
2013-01-29 11:09:22 AM

SevenizGud: Democrat strategy: let run ads the newspapers in Mexico offering free everything, and then naturalizing them all right before the election.


Citation Needed.
 
2013-01-29 11:13:47 AM

Tyrone Slothrop: Holy shiat, Hydra said something that made sense.


Every blind nut finds a squirrel, right?

/wait, what?
 
2013-01-29 11:15:44 AM

Witty_Retort: So, the Mormon strategy?


Came for this. Leaving, well, leaving with a cool story, bro.

I knew a guy who was a Catholic from an ardently Catholic family. Whenever he was in an argument with his dad, he would just threaten to baptize his father Mormon after he died. That tended to shut down the argument.
 
2013-01-29 11:15:54 AM

Hydra:
If you overstay your work visa in France as an American, you'd be deported in a bleeding heartbeat.


But if you come from anywhere in the EU (Romania, Bulgaria, etc. etc.), you don't need one to work in France or a passport to cross national borders. How is babby formed?
 
2013-01-29 11:22:12 AM

Bendal: This lead off on the national news last night. The big points appeared to be allowing undocumented immigrants to work in the US while they applied for legal citizenship, but they have to go to the "end of the line", submit to detailed background checks, and it would take 15 years to complete. Oh, and severe fines for companies hiring "illegal" immigrants and more money thrown at sealing the border.

FIFTEEN YEARS? No wonder so many immigrants decide it's not worth the effort; how long does it take to become a citizen of other countries?

img837.imageshack.us

embiggened version
 
2013-01-29 11:24:25 AM

Hydra: Which is why I think the best compromise that should get broad, Congressionally passable support is a three-pronged approach:

1) provide adequate security for the borders (placates Republicans)

2) provide a simple path to citizenship/a green card for currently undocumented immigrants (placates Democrats)

3) overhaul the immigration and naturalization process to cut out bureaucracy and redundancy in the process for those already mired in the process and allow foreign labor to flow safely and freely across the border (should placate... well, everybody)

I'm thinking whatever compromise is eventually worked out will have to resemble that kind of approach in some regard or another, or I don't see how it gets out of Congress and onto the President's desk to sign it. And who knows - something like that might ACTUALLY fix, or take steps toward fixing, the problem


And the framework that was given out yesterday did not include #3. It is the lowest hanging fruit and it seems noone is talking about it.
 
2013-01-29 11:24:56 AM

Hydra: The process in receiving a green card, and ultimately citizenship, is far too cumbersome and bureaucratic and should be streamlined for those who are already here. It shouldn't take a decade for a Mexican who knows more about US history than your average naturally born high schooler to become a citizen. People who want to come here to work/start businesses should be allowed to do so.

The borders should also be secured to ensure criminals aren't entering the country over a porous border.

I don't see what's so hard to understand about this.


If otherwise law abiding immigrants stop illegally crossing the border because the path to citizenship is remotely possible, the only people who would be illegally crossing the border would be smugglers.

As it stands, the only other solution I see for Crime in Mexico spilling into the US is to annex Mexico. Which is code for completely obliterate the Mexican military and take their land while trying to deal with the global fallout. And that's just not worth it at all.
 
2013-01-29 11:27:53 AM

Hydra: I'm thinking whatever compromise is eventually worked out will have to resemble that kind of approach in some regard or another, or I don't see how it gets out of Congress and onto the President's desk to sign it. And who knows - something like that might ACTUALLY fix, or take steps toward fixing, the problem.


Sounds good, until:

3) overhaul the immigration and naturalization process to cut out bureaucracy and redundancy in the process for those already mired in the process and allow foreign labor to flow safely and freely across the border (should placate... well, everybody)

What those overhauls are meant to accomplish and what is "waste" or "redundancy" in the process are different things to different people. In theory, it "placates everybody". In practice, the GOP will label Dems as "soft on illegal immigration; probably to get those dang Mexicans to vote for 'em" while protecting business interests and the Dems will label the GOP as racists while courting more photogenic faces and heart-warming (or -wrenching) stories of what the policies we have/want will do to people just like them.

The same as any immigration fight in the last 20 years.
 
2013-01-29 11:41:29 AM

BeesNuts: Bendal: This lead off on the national news last night. The big points appeared to be allowing undocumented immigrants to work in the US while they applied for legal citizenship, but they have to go to the "end of the line", submit to detailed background checks, and it would take 15 years to complete. Oh, and severe fines for companies hiring "illegal" immigrants and more money thrown at sealing the border.

FIFTEEN YEARS? No wonder so many immigrants decide it's not worth the effort; how long does it take to become a citizen of other countries?
[img837.imageshack.us image 800x518]

embiggened version


Yeah, it's pretty hilarious that ignorant people think it's as easy as applying for a driver's license and people just DON'T because they're too lazy/evil/foreign.
 
2013-01-29 11:47:53 AM

Paul Baumer: But if you come from anywhere in the EU (Romania, Bulgaria, etc. etc.), you don't need one to work in France or a passport to cross national borders. How is babby formed?


Doesn't make what I said incorrect, and even though you might legally be allowed in coming from elsewhere in the EU, good luck feeling welcomed by the locals and finding a job.


BeesNuts: If otherwise law abiding immigrants stop illegally crossing the border because the path to citizenship is remotely possible, the only people who would be illegally crossing the border would be smugglers.


Though it's a separate issue, I think what could alleviate that would be ending the drug war since I assume the vast majority of those smugglers - hell, the vast majority of those coming over now - have to do with the drug trade. I don't think we'd have to annex anything at all, and so long as trade is allowed to traverse the border freely enough (to toss in yet another issue), smuggling would not be much of an issue.

I think the debate about immigration could really be a free trade issue, technically speaking, since it's really about allowing free trade in foreign vs. domestic labor. I think the real reason those wait times are so long and those green card/visa allowances are so low in that flow chart you posted is because people by-and-large want to limit competition from foreign labor as much as possible.

/a good video about immigration and gives a good primer on why immigration policy should be liberalized
 
2013-01-29 11:50:11 AM

Hydra: /a good video about immigration and gives a good primer on why immigration policy should be liberalized


That's "liberalized" in the classical meaning of the word, of course.
 
2013-01-29 11:57:15 AM

Hydra: Paul Baumer: But if you come from anywhere in the EU (Romania, Bulgaria, etc. etc.), you don't need one to work in France or a passport to cross national borders. How is babby formed?

Doesn't make what I said incorrect, and even though you might legally be allowed in coming from elsewhere in the EU, good luck feeling welcomed by the locals and finding a job.



It does make it a non sequitur and not terribly germane - in fact it refutes rather than supports your position. Other countries have "porous borders" and no work visa requirements for massive classes of foreigners, as opposed to "Well teh rest of the world is so much harder on immigration than the US!".
 
2013-01-29 12:04:22 PM

BeesNuts: Bendal: This lead off on the national news last night. The big points appeared to be allowing undocumented immigrants to work in the US while they applied for legal citizenship, but they have to go to the "end of the line", submit to detailed background checks, and it would take 15 years to complete. Oh, and severe fines for companies hiring "illegal" immigrants and more money thrown at sealing the border.

FIFTEEN YEARS? No wonder so many immigrants decide it's not worth the effort; how long does it take to become a citizen of other countries?
[img837.imageshack.us image 800x518]

embiggened version


It's not just the time. It costs thousands, even for a n easier route. And I'm not talking the airfare either.

Marrying a British citizen means they have to get a full round of injections (even if they're up to date on many of them). Then there's the cost to petition the embassy for an interview and the cost of the K-1 Fiancé(e) visa. Then the cost of biometric identification (fingerprints, retina scan) for the conditional (2 year) green card. Then the cost for the first 10 year green card after that. And a year later, the cost of applying for US Citizenship if they no longer want to go through the hassle and cost of green card renewal every future decade.

Totally worth it, though!
 
2013-01-29 12:17:55 PM

Jackpot777: Marrying a British citizen means they have to get a full round of injections (even if they're up to date on many of them). Then there's the cost to petition the embassy for an interview and the cost of the K-1 Fiancé(e) visa. Then the cost of biometric identification (fingerprints, retina scan) for the conditional (2 year) green card. Then the cost for the first 10 year green card after that. And a year later, the cost of applying for US Citizenship if they no longer want to go through the hassle and cost of green card renewal every future decade.


Que?
 
2013-01-29 12:43:56 PM

ricochet4: but seriously, employer sanctions is a non-starter with republicans, regardless of what they say...you will never reduce the incentive to come over illegally without it. add that to the racism that's endemic in america and you have a perfect storm of interest meeting ideology.


It is a non starter unless our sytem for policing and ensuring people are legal is cleaned up.
 
xcv
2013-01-29 01:11:13 PM
I hope someone is taking notes so we can efficiently recycle all these brilliant talking points and Fark headlines from both sides in a decade or so after millions more settlers arrived without going through the immigration system.
 
2013-01-29 01:40:03 PM

Dr Dreidel: Hydra: The process in receiving a green card, and ultimately citizenship, is far too cumbersome and bureaucratic and should be streamlined for those who are already here. It shouldn't take a decade for a Mexican who knows more about US history than your average naturally born high schooler to become a citizen. People who want to come here to work/start businesses should be allowed to do so.

The borders should also be secured to ensure criminals aren't entering the country over a porous border.

I don't see what's so hard to understand about this.

The fact that if we continually have reams of undocumented immigrants that we give any sort of "cut the line" "amnesty" to, it incentivizes still more waves of undocumented immigrants to come on over and try to run out the clock until the next wave of "Fine, whatever -you're Americans if you pay us and pretend you're sorry" legislation.

That's the thinking, anyway. I think that if you're willing to risk whatever penalties, risk your own life/health to make the trip over (for Canadians, it may not be so hard as long as you've got a good jacket, eh?) and live as a second-class citizen for long enough, you've proven you love America warts and all. Most immigrants - legal or not - have a greater appreciation for what America is and does than those of us born here.

// I guess your feelings on "repressive dictatorships" are tempered after you've lived in one


Baloney. Most illegal immigrants don't love America so much as they need money. As bad as they might have it in America as second class citizens, it's far and away better than what they would have back wherever they came from. So I don't see their willingness to "suffer" illegal status in the U.S. as a test for their love of country.
 
2013-01-29 02:51:55 PM
Look, the whole immigration system needs to be reformed so we can let in the skilled and unskilled workers the US needs to finance our growing entitlements and maintain an effective workforce. That being said, rewarding those who entered illegally with near automatic residency over those who are attempting to follow our Byzantine system is unfair, and potentially creates issues down the line when another wave of immigrants ignores the lawful means in the hopes of a further policy change legalizing those who are inside the borders. If the system is reformed, it shouldn't take 15 years as hopefully the process will be much smoother and the backlog handled in a timely fashion. However, it is important that those who failed to follow the asinine rules are further back in the queue behind those trying to immigrate the right way. If this isn't understood, the US can always deport them and they can start fresh under the new rules at the back of the line in their home countries.

I have never understood the argument why 10m, 20m, 30m whatever number you come to illegal immigrants can't be deported. It isn't like they are all being rounded up at once. As discovered, they are removed and with increased border security, it is harder to get back in. It is a slow process that is easily achievable to reduce numbers within the borders. There are profound consequences to doing this in terms of families and lifestyles uprooted, but it is entirely possible.
 
2013-01-29 03:26:17 PM

Citrate1007: Provide a pathway for immigrants to legally work while going through the immigration process and heavily fine businesses that hire illegals.


I propose the corporate death penalty. For any business that hires an illegal immigrant.
 
2013-01-29 03:28:45 PM

xcv: I hope someone is taking notes so we can efficiently recycle all these brilliant talking points and Fark headlines from both sides in a decade or so after millions more settlers arrived without going through the immigration system.


xcv: I hope someone is taking notes so we can efficiently recycle all these brilliant talking points and Fark headlines from both sides in a decade or so after millions more settlers arrived without going through the immigration system.


You mean like Cubans do? Oh wait why is it that the GOP isn't calling for those cubans who came here illegally to be deported back to Cuba? but Mexicans are a huge problem?
 
2013-01-29 04:32:15 PM

Hydra: ricochet4: why do you hate small business?

but seriously, employer sanctions is a non-starter with republicans, regardless of what they say...you will never reduce the incentive to come over illegally without it.

Employer sanctions never work and never will work.


add that to the racism that's endemic in america

Good god, just stop now while you're ahead.

You honestly think racism is unique to America? Try working in Mexico as a white guy or in China as an immigrant from Japan/South Korea or in ANY of the "progressive" western European countries who're actively trying to stem the flow of immigration from eastern European states (see: the greenlit Fark thread about the UK trashing itself to discourage flows from Eastern states).

If you overstay your work visa in France as an American, you'd be deported in a bleeding heartbeat.

So just stop it.


what are you talking about? i never said that racism is unique to america...certainly you're not denying it exists here?

further, if i don't get to talk about EVERY OTHER COUNTRY'S HEALTHCARE system in that discussion, you shouldn't get to talk about their immigration policies in this discussion. we're talking about what's best for the US, after all...
 
2013-01-29 04:34:02 PM

liam76: ricochet4: but seriously, employer sanctions is a non-starter with republicans, regardless of what they say...you will never reduce the incentive to come over illegally without it. add that to the racism that's endemic in america and you have a perfect storm of interest meeting ideology.

It is a non starter unless our sytem for policing and ensuring people are legal is cleaned up.


that system has been around for a long time now. there's a good reason why it hasn't been "cleaned up" yet.
 
2013-01-29 04:56:58 PM

ricochet4: liam76: ricochet4: but seriously, employer sanctions is a non-starter with republicans, regardless of what they say...you will never reduce the incentive to come over illegally without it. add that to the racism that's endemic in america and you have a perfect storm of interest meeting ideology.

It is a non starter unless our sytem for policing and ensuring people are legal is cleaned up.

that system has been around for a long time now. there's a good reason why it hasn't been "cleaned up" yet.


The reluctance isn't just from "big business" or even small business supporters who want to be able to use illegal immigrants. Fixing it so it is usable, means more central control over ID's, or "real ID" type system.
 
2013-01-30 05:45:06 AM

Hydra: Mexican who knows more about US history than your average naturally born high schooler


You have a very romantic view of Mexican immigrants. Naturally born Americans of Hispanic heritage know less about US history than the average naturally born high schooler. Somehow immigrants who often didn't complete high-school in their podunk Mexican village have now acquired all this knowledge between their two jobs?
 
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