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(Fox News)   In response to a measure banning semi-automatic rifles and large-capacity magazines, a Vermont gun range starts a ban of their own   (foxnews.com) divider line 536
    More: Dumbass, semi-automatic rifle, gun ranges, Vermont, capability management  
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24497 clicks; posted to Main » on 29 Jan 2013 at 12:21 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-01-29 01:22:04 PM  

dr-shotgun: Bomb Head Mohammed: oh look, a gun nut that doesn't understand the statistical nature of gun violence. hurry up kids and watch or we'll have to wait until the 12:05 parade for the next one.

"This is a matter of vital importance to the public safety ... While we recognize that assault-weapon legislation will not stop all assault-weapon crime, statistics prove that we can dry up the supply of these guns, making them less accessible to criminals." - Ronald Reagan

Anyone calling for a ban on assault weapons doesn't understand the statistical nature of gun violence, given how astoundingly rare their use in crime actually is.


Gun control advocates don't use statistics or proof. They know that black guns with rails are scary looking and they don't like them. They are convinced that banning black scary guns will solve our violent crime problem even though they aren't even remotely connected.

You can do all this research directly on FBI.gov. You don't have to be a statistician to understand it.

What are we going to ban next? Assault muffins? How about we put scary black rails on a potato and call it an assault potato?
 
2013-01-29 01:22:21 PM  

Fubini: This makes sense to me, at least a little.

I'm one of those crazy people who thinks that police and law enforcement should be considered civilians and subject to the same weapons restrictions as the rest of us. That is, if the general public is prohibited from owning "assault weapons" then the police ought to as well, and if we're only able to buy fully automatic weapons that were registered before 1986 then so should they.

Because the police aren't a domestic army, they're a civilian (non-military) organization for law enforcement.


The one time this backfired was the North Hollywood bank robbery shoot- out, where the criminals waaaay outgunned the cops. Not saying it's reason to have cops armed to the teeth, however.
 
2013-01-29 01:23:20 PM  

rufus-t-firefly: BgJonson79: rufus-t-firefly: Englebert Slaptyback: Gosling

I'm pretty sure that if the cops decide they want to show up, they're going to show up.

They are free to show up, but the range owner is equally free to refuse to serve them.

Then the cops can set up shop outside and make sure that everyone who goes to the range is only carrying what is legal and arrest any violators.

Everything is legal in VT :-)

They can always make sure every car there is current on its registration and inspection.

And they can run plates to make sure there aren't any cars registered to felons parked at this gun range.


Wow, getting them on non-criminal non-moving penalties. That's some fine police work there, Lou.
 
2013-01-29 01:23:43 PM  

justtray: HeWhoHasNoName: justtray: Sorry misquote above here. I listed a fact. Citizens arrest does not make civilians law enforcement.


Completely irrelevant. Being empowered by established police forces to enforce laws does not make officers super-civilians, and they are by definition not members of the military. Police officers and civilian law enforcement are civilians.

Care to make any other logically implosive arguments?

It does make them worthy of carrying better weapons than regular civilians though, in my mind. I understand that you disagree. I just think your line of argument here is stupid and dishonest, and I explained why earlier.


Explain to us exactly where you believe they stop being "regular civilians" and become "super civilians" who are more equal than others.
 
2013-01-29 01:23:54 PM  

justtray: How about we do both?


How about you not punish me and those of us who are law-abiding gun owners for the actions of a few idiots?
 
2013-01-29 01:24:02 PM  

AbiNormal: "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

It doesn't specify which type of arms you have a right to.


I'm against a ban on Daedric Warhammers.

images2.wikia.nocookie.net
 
2013-01-29 01:24:13 PM  
I can not wait for the inevitable "Massacre at gun range, Cops say "who cares"" article.
 
2013-01-29 01:24:14 PM  

Katolu: Fubini: This makes sense to me, at least a little.

I'm one of those crazy people who thinks that police and law enforcement should be considered civilians and subject to the same weapons restrictions as the rest of us. That is, if the general public is prohibited from owning "assault weapons" then the police ought to as well, and if we're only able to buy fully automatic weapons that were registered before 1986 then so should they.

Because the police aren't a domestic army, they're a civilian (non-military) organization for law enforcement.

The one time this backfired was the North Hollywood bank robbery shoot- out, where the criminals waaaay outgunned the cops. Not saying it's reason to have cops armed to the teeth, however.


The criminals of the "North Hollywood Shootout" used firearms not legally available to civilians (the criminals utilized firearm models already prohibited to civilians in the United States due to the ease by which they could be converted to fully automatic operation).
 
2013-01-29 01:24:18 PM  

macadamnut: BgJonson79: Mutiny32: Can we label the NRA as a hate organization yet?

Wouldn't the ACLU fall in the same category, then, as a group that defends the Constitution?

The NRA is a trade association for weapons manufacturers. It has nothing to do with the Constitution, which says nothing about private ownership of firearms.


This. This. A dozen times this.

This constant harping about banning assault weapons "is taking away our God-given Constitutional Rights" is a load of baloney. M-16s are banned and (almost) no one biatches about it. The AR-15 is (was) a semi-auto M-16 before the Rambo Wannabes started making hot rods out of them.

The NRA doesn't give a damn where the legal/illegal bar is set. It gets paid by the people who manufacture hot rod parts at absurd profit margins.

/Wouldn't vote for an assault weapons ban
//What would be the point?
///There's already thousands (millions?) of unregistered/untraceable units out there
 
2013-01-29 01:24:43 PM  

HeWhoHasNoName: justtray: And the argument you're missing is twofold.

That not all weapons are capable of the same level of distruction, your premise is a falsehood (see china stabber same day as sandy hook), and that the goal isnt total prevention, but to lower gun related homicide.

Again, argument soundly defeated.

Then try to ban handguns. They account for the lion's share of deaths due to firearms (some of them are even unlawful homicides, as opposed to justifiable homicide as self defense, or shootings by law enforcement).

The weapons you are focusing on are involved in such a small percentage of overall deaths, much less violent crime, that they are statistically insignificant. The DoJ itself concluded that their use in crime was so minial before, during, and after the 1994 ban that it was impossible to calculate any discernible impact from the federal ban.

But let's ignore all that for a moment. Let's take a look at the ban Sen. Feinstien has proposed. From the text of that bill, explain to me exactly how any measure of that law will directly prevent violent crime. Find one part of the statute that will directly and demonstrably BLOCK a criminal act.

We'll sit here while you search in vain.

Even the bill's author and sponsors admit it won't do that, or even come close. You are championing supposed benefits of a law that even those who wrote it openly and explicitly admit it is incapable of.


I dont want to ban any guns. I just want to tax them based on their rates of risk, as per the free market. I also want registration to force liability.

But you do make a sound argument that if we should ban something, banning handguns would be more effective in lowering gun related homicide, and i agree.
 
2013-01-29 01:24:54 PM  

rufus-t-firefly: BgJonson79: Would you really prefer the proletariat's whims dictate what the gov't can do? Even knowing 92% of people are average or dumber?

[i0.kym-cdn.com image 425x279]


Unfamiliar with bell curves and standard deviation, aren't you? Communications major?
 
2013-01-29 01:25:15 PM  

AbiNormal: It doesn't specify which type of arms you have a right to.


And that's the rub, isn't it?

We do place limits on Constitutional rights, absolutely.

And we do so only when there is absolute clarity that the limitation of that right will have a meaningful, demonstrable impact on public safety.

This is the contention of this debate; there is no farking data to say that banning so called "assault weapons" will have any meaningful impact on actual public safety.

1- They are used in a statistically insignificant portion of overall firearm crimes (less than 2%).
2- There is no data to support that the use of an "assault weapon" has any impact on the lethality of those crimes (i.e. they would just as easily happened had another weapon been used).
3- There is data to suggest that the limitation of these weapons in civilian hands would be detrimental to the cause of legal self defense (especially magazine capacity bans).

On this last point, I would say that there are almost no scenarios where a 30 round AR magazine has been necessary for a citizen to defend themselves, but there are *many* cases where civilians have needed more than 10 rounds to adequately defend themselves. There is also little/no data to suggest that magazine capacity has an impact on actual firearm crimes though.

So yes, we do understand that Constitutional rights have limitations. Where we disagree is in the belief that limiting the 2nd Amendment, as is being proposed currently, offers any net benefit to society.
 
2013-01-29 01:25:32 PM  

macadamnut: Lamoille Valley Fish and Game Club

[cps-static.rovicorp.com image 600x450]


You should check out the Stowe rod and gun club. It's on the other side of the mountain. You wouldn't know it.
 
2013-01-29 01:25:43 PM  

justtray: Poor deflection.

Crime rate is statistically correlated to population density. 20 million people live n London. Thats why their crime rate is so high. The reason their homicide rate is so low, despite having 4x the violent crime rate is because they dont have simple weapons of homicide, aka guns. At least, that is a very logial and statistically supported representation to be taken from these facts.

Please do continue your cognitive dissonance though.


Couple of things here:

1/ Do you even know what "cognitive dissonance" means? Or do you just parrot the term because it sounded cool?
2/ Do you suggest that all the violent crime in the UK occurs in London? Otherwise, why mention it?

But hey, let's dispense with your ignorant bullshiat for a moment and get down to brass tacks. You fairly baldly stated: "Crime rate is statistically correlated to population density". Fair enough. Let's look into that. Who has some of the highest population densities in the world? Well, according to the wikipedia, that'd be crime ridden places like Singapore, Taiwan and Bahrain. Surely those places have violent crime rates commensurate with their population densities. Oh, no, wait...they don't.

In fact, in those places, guess what you have? You have a very harsh legal system that criminals know will mean the consequences of their actions will likely be quite dire. That is to say: if they consider committing a crime, they're also considering the possible ramifications. How about that?

Or maybe it doesn't have all that much to do with how close everybody's mailbox is to everyone else. Either or, right?
 
2013-01-29 01:26:22 PM  

morgen_benner: macadamnut: BgJonson79: Mutiny32: Can we label the NRA as a hate organization yet?

Wouldn't the ACLU fall in the same category, then, as a group that defends the Constitution?

The NRA is a trade association for weapons manufacturers. It has nothing to do with the Constitution, which says nothing about private ownership of firearms.

I'l bite, though I truly hope I'm feeding a troll:

DC vs Heller ruled that we indeed do have the right to private ownership.


Anyone who tries to tell me the 2nd amendment was referring to a state militia instantly gets labeled as an idiot because the 2nd amendment clearly defines an individual's right to own firearms. This has been beaten to death and that side of the argument needs to stop using it. It makes them look extremely ignorant.
 
2013-01-29 01:26:38 PM  

BgJonson79: rufus-t-firefly: BgJonson79: rufus-t-firefly: Englebert Slaptyback: Gosling

I'm pretty sure that if the cops decide they want to show up, they're going to show up.

They are free to show up, but the range owner is equally free to refuse to serve them.

Then the cops can set up shop outside and make sure that everyone who goes to the range is only carrying what is legal and arrest any violators.

Everything is legal in VT :-)

They can always make sure every car there is current on its registration and inspection.

And they can run plates to make sure there aren't any cars registered to felons parked at this gun range.

Wow, getting them on non-criminal non-moving penalties. That's some fine police work there, Lou.


Reasonable suspicion that a felon is at the range with a firearm? That's probable cause. Warrant to enter the range, requesting ID from everyone at the range...

Make it a pain in the ass to go to the range and cause a drop in business and he'll be BEGGING the cops to pay for access.

Hey, they're just doing their jobs. Just because they normally might not enforce EVERY law at every opportunity doesn't mean they can't start with that place.
 
2013-01-29 01:26:38 PM  

justtray: I dont want to ban any guns.


Readers should be aware that justttray is lying.
 
gja [TotalFark]
2013-01-29 01:26:41 PM  

Alonjar: gja: OK, here we go.....
The Police are NOT required to protect you. That is an understood truth. The laws and charter for their service bear this assertion out.
Hence, they need no firepower greater than the populous at large (John Q Public).
They do NOT receive training that is in any way equal to the armed forces.
They are not afforded the latitude in their duties that the armed forces are given.
(There is rarely, if ever, a need for a soldier or a Marine to file a report after killing an enemy. The police must always file and undergo investigation).
So, if what I have read many times over is fair ("only trained military people should have these guns") and the police are none of them, then they should not have anything the public is not entitled to possess.

lol wut?


He asked "I really want to hear someone successfully argue why police shouldnt be better armed than civilians without using petty semantic arguments. (the gun nut favorite go-to) "
That was my answer.
Show me where I lied or posted something that isn't true.

Is there some type of reading comprehension problem on your end?

The police are not required to protect  individuals. FACT.
They do not undergo training equal to the armed forces. FACT
Anytime they discharge their weapon (of any type) whether or not a death is involved, there are reports and investigations. FACT
Many times has it been said, in reference to what we are typifying as 'Assault weapons/rifles' that "Only the trained military should have these".
You can find it said all over FARK and sites too numerous to deny it's utterance.

The police are NOT military, nor even Para-military. They are a civilian law enforcement. So one would rationally and logically conclude they need only the level of weaponry on par with those they are chartered with enforcing laws on.
 
2013-01-29 01:26:57 PM  
AbiNormal

It doesn't specify which type of arms you have a right to.

Right? If only the authors had numerous other writings to clarify their intent...
 
2013-01-29 01:27:23 PM  

Kit Fister: justtray: How about we do both?

How about you not punish me and those of us who are law-abiding gun owners for the actions of a few idiots?


Im sure youve heard this before, but thats how society works. The few ruin it for the rest. If you dont like what that leads to, Somalia doesnt have such restrictions. See if you like it there.
 
2013-01-29 01:27:27 PM  

rufus-t-firefly: If they're carrying in plain sight, there's no need for a warrant.


Uh. the law here in Vermont is you may conceal any weapon under 6 feet in length with no permit required.
 
2013-01-29 01:27:49 PM  

Kit Fister: dr-shotgun: justtray: Now THIS is ironic coming from someone who has to rely on a 4 year old conservative activist, hypocritical, willfully ignorant, soon to be repealed supreme court decision to have any argument whatsoever.

Heller was willfully ignorant?

Right, because when the 1st, 4th, 9th and 10th Amendments refer to "the people," they confer an individual right. With the 2nd Amendment though, "the people" is referring to a collective right.

Someone apparently also missed civics class the day they explained that Supreme Court rulings cannot be repealed.


Erm .... don't overreach:

"Stare decisis is usually the wise policy, because in most matters it is more important that the applicable rule of law be settled than that it be settled right. ... But in cases involving the Federal Constitution, where correction through legislative action is practically impossible, this Court has often overruled its earlier decisions. ... This is strikingly true of cases under the due process clause."
-Burnet v. Coronado Oil & Gas Co., 285 U.S. 393, 406-407, 410 (1932) (Brandeis, J., dissenting)

[W]hen convinced of former error, this Court has never felt constrained to follow precedent. In constitutional questions, where correction depends upon amendment, and not upon legislative action, this Court throughout its history has freely exercised its power to reexamine the basis of its constitutional decisions.-, 321 U.S. 649, 665 (1944).

Stare decisis is a good thing but it can be overturned. That said, the 2nd amendment should not have it's "of the people" interpreted any differently than any other amendment with that phrase in it (1st, 4th, et al).
s
 
2013-01-29 01:28:48 PM  

dofus: macadamnut: BgJonson79: Mutiny32: Can we label the NRA as a hate organization yet?

Wouldn't the ACLU fall in the same category, then, as a group that defends the Constitution?

The NRA is a trade association for weapons manufacturers. It has nothing to do with the Constitution, which says nothing about private ownership of firearms.

This. This. A dozen times this.

This constant harping about banning assault weapons "is taking away our God-given Constitutional Rights" is a load of baloney. M-16s are banned and (almost) no one biatches about it. The AR-15 is (was) a semi-auto M-16 before the Rambo Wannabes started making hot rods out of them.

The NRA doesn't give a damn where the legal/illegal bar is set. It gets paid by the people who manufacture hot rod parts at absurd profit margins.

/Wouldn't vote for an assault weapons ban
//What would be the point?
///There's already thousands (millions?) of unregistered/untraceable units out there


Uhm, M16s aren't banned. Restricted, yes, but not banned.
 
2013-01-29 01:29:19 PM  

justtray: HeWhoHasNoName: justtray: And the argument you're missing is twofold.

That not all weapons are capable of the same level of distruction, your premise is a falsehood (see china stabber same day as sandy hook), and that the goal isnt total prevention, but to lower gun related homicide.

Again, argument soundly defeated.

Then try to ban handguns. They account for the lion's share of deaths due to firearms (some of them are even unlawful homicides, as opposed to justifiable homicide as self defense, or shootings by law enforcement).

The weapons you are focusing on are involved in such a small percentage of overall deaths, much less violent crime, that they are statistically insignificant. The DoJ itself concluded that their use in crime was so minial before, during, and after the 1994 ban that it was impossible to calculate any discernible impact from the federal ban.

But let's ignore all that for a moment. Let's take a look at the ban Sen. Feinstien has proposed. From the text of that bill, explain to me exactly how any measure of that law will directly prevent violent crime. Find one part of the statute that will directly and demonstrably BLOCK a criminal act.

We'll sit here while you search in vain.

Even the bill's author and sponsors admit it won't do that, or even come close. You are championing supposed benefits of a law that even those who wrote it openly and explicitly admit it is incapable of.

I dont want to ban any guns. I just want to tax them based on their rates of risk, as per the free market. I also want registration to force liability.

But you do make a sound argument that if we should ban something, banning handguns would be more effective in lowering gun related homicide, and i agree.


Do you also support taxing people to vote? And assigning monetary and civil liability to people who vote for extremist candidates?

Or people who write books with inflammatory or controversial content?

Or practicing controversial religions?
 
2013-01-29 01:29:26 PM  

HeWhoHasNoName: justtray: HeWhoHasNoName: justtray: Sorry misquote above here. I listed a fact. Citizens arrest does not make civilians law enforcement.


Completely irrelevant. Being empowered by established police forces to enforce laws does not make officers super-civilians, and they are by definition not members of the military. Police officers and civilian law enforcement are civilians.

Care to make any other logically implosive arguments?

It does make them worthy of carrying better weapons than regular civilians though, in my mind. I understand that you disagree. I just think your line of argument here is stupid and dishonest, and I explained why earlier.

Explain to us exactly where you believe they stop being "regular civilians" and become "super civilians" who are more equal than others.


I think that people who have been assigned the job of protecting the populace by upholding the laws, while under supervision of the government and all applicable responsibility are required to use weapons that are unsafe in the hands of citizens, while on duty.
 
2013-01-29 01:29:40 PM  

justtray: I really want to hear someone successfully argue why police shouldnt be better armed than civilians without using petty semantic arguments. (the gun nut favorite go-to)


Translation: I really want to hear someone successfully argue why police shouldn't be better armed than civilians without using arguments that undermine my own. Of course, you wouldn't need to ask that question if you just had a cursory understanding of 20th-century history and what happens when the state has more firepower than the people under its rule.

As hard as it may be to believe: cops are civilians too. There's nothing special about the badge that elevates police officers over the common man or any reason why they should be put on pedestals. When the officer goes home at the end of his shift he is still a human being susceptible to all the desires, impulses, temptations and conflicting morals that affect the rest of us. Contrary to popular belief, the average police officer is not an expert marksman yet we trust them over most gun enthusiasts to operate high-caliber weaponry.

Sometimes, police officers do bad things like drive drunk, beat their spouse, or mow down an entire party with their agency-issued AR-15 for nothing more than being called a worthless pig.

If a gun club wants to deny its city a resource that it in turn wants to deny the rest of the population by way of magazine restrictions and bans on scary looking "assault" weapons they are well within their right and it is not at all "taking it out" on the police. They will still go about doing their jobs and collecting their paychecks. This is a message aimed squarely at the city for passing worthless gun-control legislation.
 
2013-01-29 01:29:43 PM  

enforcerpsu: morgen_benner: macadamnut: BgJonson79: Mutiny32: Can we label the NRA as a hate organization yet?

Wouldn't the ACLU fall in the same category, then, as a group that defends the Constitution?

The NRA is a trade association for weapons manufacturers. It has nothing to do with the Constitution, which says nothing about private ownership of firearms.

I'l bite, though I truly hope I'm feeding a troll:

DC vs Heller ruled that we indeed do have the right to private ownership.

Anyone who tries to tell me the 2nd amendment was referring to a state militia instantly gets labeled as an idiot because the 2nd amendment clearly defines an individual's right to own firearms. This has been beaten to death and that side of the argument needs to stop using it. It makes them look extremely ignorant.


Agreed. Citing a supreme court ruling was just driving home the proverbial nail. "Militia" was already defined in the Constitution.
 
2013-01-29 01:29:51 PM  

justtray: Kit Fister: justtray: How about we do both?

How about you not punish me and those of us who are law-abiding gun owners for the actions of a few idiots?

Im sure youve heard this before, but thats how society works. The few ruin it for the rest. If you dont like what that leads to, Somalia doesnt have such restrictions. See if you like it there.


Well, it shouldn't, and it won't work this time.
 
2013-01-29 01:29:55 PM  

MDGeist: I can not wait for the inevitable "Massacre at gun range"" article.


you cant wait for a massacre? maybe the police should be watching you?
 
2013-01-29 01:31:08 PM  

BgJonson79: rufus-t-firefly: BgJonson79: Would you really prefer the proletariat's whims dictate what the gov't can do? Even knowing 92% of people are average or dumber?

[i0.kym-cdn.com image 425x279]

Unfamiliar with bell curves and standard deviation, aren't you? Communications major?


You didn't even offer a citation, but NOW you want to start talking about statistics?

And you didn't specify what kind of average you were using.

Sloppy work there.
 
2013-01-29 01:31:46 PM  

MagicMissile: MDGeist: I can not wait for the inevitable "Massacre at gun range"" article.

you cant wait for a massacre? maybe the police should be watching you?


The mask is just slipping more often then usual for that crowd.
 
2013-01-29 01:32:11 PM  

rufus-t-firefly: Gosling: BgJonson79: Wouldn't that be trespassing? Cops aren't above the law, and it's dangerous to think they are.

It's called commandeering. If the cops NEED to have a facility to train their personnel, and your gun range is the only facility in the area, guess what? Your gun range is now a police training facility.

Eminent domain.

"Here's a check for what we say your property is worth...it's ours now."


I'm shocked that those who support gun grabbing also support land grabbing.
 
2013-01-29 01:32:19 PM  

Kit Fister: dofus: macadamnut: BgJonson79: Mutiny32: Can we label the NRA as a hate organization yet?

Wouldn't the ACLU fall in the same category, then, as a group that defends the Constitution?

The NRA is a trade association for weapons manufacturers. It has nothing to do with the Constitution, which says nothing about private ownership of firearms.

This. This. A dozen times this.

This constant harping about banning assault weapons "is taking away our God-given Constitutional Rights" is a load of baloney. M-16s are banned and (almost) no one biatches about it. The AR-15 is (was) a semi-auto M-16 before the Rambo Wannabes started making hot rods out of them.

The NRA doesn't give a damn where the legal/illegal bar is set. It gets paid by the people who manufacture hot rod parts at absurd profit margins.

/Wouldn't vote for an assault weapons ban
//What would be the point?
///There's already thousands (millions?) of unregistered/untraceable units out there

Uhm, M16s aren't banned. Restricted Infringed, yes, but not banned.

 
2013-01-29 01:32:23 PM  
Liberalism is a mental health disorder and should be treated accordingly.
 
2013-01-29 01:32:46 PM  

justtray: HeWhoHasNoName: justtray: HeWhoHasNoName: justtray: Sorry misquote above here. I listed a fact. Citizens arrest does not make civilians law enforcement.


Completely irrelevant. Being empowered by established police forces to enforce laws does not make officers super-civilians, and they are by definition not members of the military. Police officers and civilian law enforcement are civilians.

Care to make any other logically implosive arguments?

It does make them worthy of carrying better weapons than regular civilians though, in my mind. I understand that you disagree. I just think your line of argument here is stupid and dishonest, and I explained why earlier.

Explain to us exactly where you believe they stop being "regular civilians" and become "super civilians" who are more equal than others.

I think that people who have been assigned the job of protecting the populace by upholding the laws, while under supervision of the government and all applicable responsibility are required to use weapons that are unsafe in the hands of citizens, while on duty.


Why? Because their lives are somehow worth more than normal civilians?
 
2013-01-29 01:32:54 PM  

dofus: macadamnut: BgJonson79: Mutiny32: Can we label the NRA as a hate organization yet?

Wouldn't the ACLU fall in the same category, then, as a group that defends the Constitution?

The NRA is a trade association for weapons manufacturers. It has nothing to do with the Constitution, which says nothing about private ownership of firearms.

This. This. A dozen times this.

This constant harping about banning assault weapons "is taking away our God-given Constitutional Rights" is a load of baloney. M-16s are banned and (almost) no one biatches about it. The AR-15 is (was) a semi-auto M-16 before the Rambo Wannabes started making hot rods out of them.

The NRA doesn't give a damn where the legal/illegal bar is set. It gets paid by the people who manufacture hot rod parts at absurd profit margins.

/Wouldn't vote for an assault weapons ban
//What would be the point?
///There's already thousands (millions?) of unregistered/untraceable units out there


At least you lived up to your Fark handle in that post.
 
2013-01-29 01:33:01 PM  

vudukungfu: rufus-t-firefly: If they're carrying in plain sight, there's no need for a warrant.

Uh. the law here in Vermont is you may conceal any weapon under 6 feet in length with no permit required.


Read a little more carefully. The quoted bit refers to carrying in plain sight.
 
2013-01-29 01:33:03 PM  

craig328: justtray: Poor deflection.

Crime rate is statistically correlated to population density. 20 million people live n London. Thats why their crime rate is so high. The reason their homicide rate is so low, despite having 4x the violent crime rate is because they dont have simple weapons of homicide, aka guns. At least, that is a very logial and statistically supported representation to be taken from these facts.

Please do continue your cognitive dissonance though.

Couple of things here:

1/ Do you even know what "cognitive dissonance" means? Or do you just parrot the term because it sounded cool?
2/ Do you suggest that all the violent crime in the UK occurs in London? Otherwise, why mention it?

But hey, let's dispense with your ignorant bullshiat for a moment and get down to brass tacks. You fairly baldly stated: "Crime rate is statistically correlated to population density". Fair enough. Let's look into that. Who has some of the highest population densities in the world? Well, according to the wikipedia, that'd be crime ridden places like Singapore, Taiwan and Bahrain. Surely those places have violent crime rates commensurate with their population densities. Oh, no, wait...they don't.

In fact, in those places, guess what you have? You have a very harsh legal system that criminals know will mean the consequences of their actions will likely be quite dire. That is to say: if they consider committing a crime, they're also considering the possible ramifications. How about that?

Or maybe it doesn't have all that much to do with how close everybody's mailbox is to everyone else. Either or, right?


I lived in Singapore for 3 years. Know what else they dont have? Any guns. They also dont have much freedom. You're arrested if you speak out against the government in a public forum. Yet it still remains the safest place in the world ive ever been. I suggest you visit, may change your entire prospective.

No im not arguing population density is the only factor in crime. The fact that you have to attempt to warp my argument speaks volumes to the strength of yours.
 
2013-01-29 01:33:34 PM  
MDGeist

I can not wait for the inevitable "Massacre at gun range"" article.

For some reason, crazies rarely shoot up places where most people are armed.
 
2013-01-29 01:34:45 PM  

HeWhoHasNoName: justtray: HeWhoHasNoName: justtray: And the argument you're missing is twofold.

That not all weapons are capable of the same level of distruction, your premise is a falsehood (see china stabber same day as sandy hook), and that the goal isnt total prevention, but to lower gun related homicide.

Again, argument soundly defeated.

Then try to ban handguns. They account for the lion's share of deaths due to firearms (some of them are even unlawful homicides, as opposed to justifiable homicide as self defense, or shootings by law enforcement).

The weapons you are focusing on are involved in such a small percentage of overall deaths, much less violent crime, that they are statistically insignificant. The DoJ itself concluded that their use in crime was so minial before, during, and after the 1994 ban that it was impossible to calculate any discernible impact from the federal ban.

But let's ignore all that for a moment. Let's take a look at the ban Sen. Feinstien has proposed. From the text of that bill, explain to me exactly how any measure of that law will directly prevent violent crime. Find one part of the statute that will directly and demonstrably BLOCK a criminal act.

We'll sit here while you search in vain.

Even the bill's author and sponsors admit it won't do that, or even come close. You are championing supposed benefits of a law that even those who wrote it openly and explicitly admit it is incapable of.

I dont want to ban any guns. I just want to tax them based on their rates of risk, as per the free market. I also want registration to force liability.

But you do make a sound argument that if we should ban something, banning handguns would be more effective in lowering gun related homicide, and i agree.

Do you also support taxing people to vote? And assigning monetary and civil liability to people who vote for extremist candidates?

Or people who write books with inflammatory or controversial content?

Or practicing controversial religions?


No, but not all rights are equal and if someone could present me with sound argument that taxing any of those things would have a statistically significant benefit, i would weigh that decision in the same manner.
 
2013-01-29 01:35:05 PM  

justtray: I lived in Singapore for 3 years. Know what else they dont have? Any guns. They also dont have much freedom. You're arrested if you speak out against the government in a public forum. Yet it still remains the safest place in the world ive ever been. I suggest you visit, may change your entire prospective.

No im not arguing population density is the only factor in crime. The fact that you have to attempt to warp my argument speaks volumes to the strength of yours.


Singapore as a model society? Never thought I'd see the day...

I know it sounds cliche, but if you liked it so much and it was so safe, why are you not still living there?
 
2013-01-29 01:35:52 PM  

muck4doo: rufus-t-firefly: Gosling: BgJonson79: Wouldn't that be trespassing? Cops aren't above the law, and it's dangerous to think they are.

It's called commandeering. If the cops NEED to have a facility to train their personnel, and your gun range is the only facility in the area, guess what? Your gun range is now a police training facility.

Eminent domain.

"Here's a check for what we say your property is worth...it's ours now."

I'm shocked that those who support gun grabbing also support land grabbing.


Probably a significant overlap between those who hate DC v Heller, but support Kelo v New London.
 
2013-01-29 01:36:20 PM  

Gosling: BgJonson79: Wouldn't that be trespassing? Cops aren't above the law, and it's dangerous to think they are.

It's called commandeering. If the cops NEED to have a facility to train their personnel, and your gun range is the only facility in the area, guess what? Your gun range is now a police training facility.


The ability of the police to commandeer facilities really only applies in emergency situations when there is no alternative. It would be a "seizure" under the Fourth Amendment and Fifth Amendments, and as such would require some sort of warrant and/or justification to a judge, and it would require just compensation be paid.

In this case, the police have a couple of reasonable alternatives: Build their own damn gun range, or apply pressure to the city council to drop the proposed assault weapons ban. Either one would satisfy the need to train without the need to seize property.

Another thing to consider is that such ranges are expensive to maintain and operate. The police are getting a deal because the members of the club contribute to the maintenance and upkeep of the range. For instance, my local F&G club the dues are $50 for the outside ranges, and another $40 for the inside ranges. Plus, you have to either pay a $25 work fee, or perform work maintaining the range on one of the scheduled work days.

All that money and work would then fall to the police, because no one is going to pay for it if they seize it. Bills will go unpaid (for things like lights and heat).
 
2013-01-29 01:36:31 PM  

Kit Fister: justtray: Kit Fister: justtray: How about we do both?

How about you not punish me and those of us who are law-abiding gun owners for the actions of a few idiots?

Im sure youve heard this before, but thats how society works. The few ruin it for the rest. If you dont like what that leads to, Somalia doesnt have such restrictions. See if you like it there.

Well, it shouldn't, and it won't work this time.


It already has and will continue to do so. And the more you fight it, the more draconian the legislation will be.
 
2013-01-29 01:37:02 PM  

rufus-t-firefly: vudukungfu: rufus-t-firefly: If they're carrying in plain sight, there's no need for a warrant.

Uh. the law here in Vermont is you may conceal any weapon under 6 feet in length with no permit required.

Read a little more carefully. The quoted bit refers to carrying in plain sight.


and you read what I said.
There is no need to have a permit to carry concealed.
 
2013-01-29 01:37:16 PM  

justtray:
I lived in Singapore for 3 years. Know what else they dont have? Any guns. They also dont have much freedom. You're arrested if you speak out against the government in a public forum. Yet it still remains the safest place in the world ive ever been. I suggest you visit, may change your entire prospective.


America is not about being "safe".

Totalitarian states who control every aspect of their subject's lives and kill those who are deemed problematic to the State - like the kind my grandfather and millions of others fought and bled to topple - are about being "safe".

America is about being free.

If you're using Singapore as a supporting argument in a debate about American legal and constitutional theory, you're in the completely wrong place.
 
2013-01-29 01:37:22 PM  
Gun ban argument: we have no proof that removing assault rifles will do anything to stem violent crime, but we want them banned.

Where is all the violence during a gun show? Using gun ban logic, gun shows should be an orgy of blood and violence.
 
2013-01-29 01:37:26 PM  

Carousel Beast: dittybopper: justtray: Is clearly not about not wanting police to have superior firepower. Its about trying to get someone to say, "police have to have it," so then you can say, "if they do we do too!" And that argument is just never going to gain traction amongst non gun nuts.

You've got it backwards: We already have it. The police already have it. It's been that way for decades, and we're fine with it.

Now the government (in this case, a local one) wants to make it so that only the police have it.

Now do you see why we might be a tad upset?

Why are you responding to an outright lying troll?


I'm bored, that's why.
 
2013-01-29 01:37:56 PM  

HeWhoHasNoName: justtray: HeWhoHasNoName: justtray: HeWhoHasNoName: justtray: Sorry misquote above here. I listed a fact. Citizens arrest does not make civilians law enforcement.


Completely irrelevant. Being empowered by established police forces to enforce laws does not make officers super-civilians, and they are by definition not members of the military. Police officers and civilian law enforcement are civilians.

Care to make any other logically implosive arguments?

It does make them worthy of carrying better weapons than regular civilians though, in my mind. I understand that you disagree. I just think your line of argument here is stupid and dishonest, and I explained why earlier.

Explain to us exactly where you believe they stop being "regular civilians" and become "super civilians" who are more equal than others.

I think that people who have been assigned the job of protecting the populace by upholding the laws, while under supervision of the government and all applicable responsibility are required to use weapons that are unsafe in the hands of citizens, while on duty.

Why? Because their lives are somehow worth more than normal civilians?


Haha no. Because they are tasked with upholding our laws and maintaining order for us, the civilians.
 
2013-01-29 01:38:29 PM  
justtray

It already has and will continue to do so. And the more you fight it, the more draconian the legislation will be.

And the more draconian the legislation is, the more people will defy it. Mass noncompliance.
 
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