If you can read this, either the style sheet didn't load or you have an older browser that doesn't support style sheets. Try clearing your browser cache and refreshing the page.

(Peoria Journal Star)   Workers vs. smart machines: THEY TOOK ER JERBS   (pjstar.com) divider line 173
    More: Sad, AWs, information need, big data, machines, technological change, MIT  
•       •       •

10225 clicks; posted to Main » on 28 Jan 2013 at 4:01 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



Voting Results (Smartest)
View Voting Results: Smartest and Funniest


Archived thread
2013-01-28 07:34:15 PM
6 votes:

Jument: cman: Is losing a job to a machine really such a bad thing?

I really dont understand why people are pissed off of technological progress.

It's only a bad thing if you're the one who ends up homeless as a result.


This! It's not that we are afraid of progress, it's the way we're afraid of progress being used.

Technological progress is not being pushed by a Roddenberrysque mindset, that eventually people will be living comfortably and poverty will be eliminated, thanks to advancement. Instead it is being pushed as a free market solution to eliminate workers and increase profits, with the mindset that those people who lost their jobs are useless now upon society and give us either one of three recommendations: "re-educate themselves into a new employment" (while cost of education is increasing, and long term debt will likely follow the person around, with no guarantee that the degree will net them a job), "work in a service industry" (which will eventually be replaced by automation, and the new job will not cover living expenses as the prior one successfully did; which will require two or three jobs to do that, taking those potential jobs away from others in the same situation), or "die in a ditch somewhere"! (which seems to be the attitude that quite a few "haves" intertwine with the idea of poverty, even if it isn't the individual's own fault that caused it).
2013-01-28 03:26:02 PM
6 votes:
Let robots and smart machines do all the work, and have a Star Trek economy.
2013-01-28 04:19:29 PM
5 votes:
Ya know what?
fark this guy.
Making 67 grand a year for reading farking numbers?
I don't care how farking long you've been doing it.
It's as bad as the $40 an hour assholes who attach bumpers to cars in Detroit...
The $50 an hour construction site flag wavers.
fark all y'all.
2013-01-28 04:12:27 PM
4 votes:
Welcome to what manufacturing has been dealing with for decades.

We're going to have an interesting problem on our hands as people are replaced by machines.

Do we share in an increase in leisure time (that should be) afforded us, or do we round up the now unemployable due to technology into government housing and give them all food rations?

Basically, are only the rich going to benefit, or society as a whole.

//Guessing the rich
2013-01-28 03:05:42 PM
4 votes:
I've been maintaining for a while that we'll never drop below 6% unemployment again.  I can't envision some new industry that would need to be labor intensive and I can see just about every profession threatened by some form of technology and efficiency.  Oh and we are still adding to the global population.
2013-01-28 07:44:26 PM
3 votes:

DarkSoulNoHope: Jument: cman: Is losing a job to a machine really such a bad thing?

I really dont understand why people are pissed off of technological progress.

It's only a bad thing if you're the one who ends up homeless as a result.

This! It's not that we are afraid of progress, it's the way we're afraid of progress being used.

Technological progress is not being pushed by a Roddenberrysque mindset, that eventually people will be living comfortably and poverty will be eliminated, thanks to advancement. Instead it is being pushed as a free market solution to eliminate workers and increase profits, with the mindset that those people who lost their jobs are useless now upon society and give us either one of three recommendations: "re-educate themselves into a new employment" (while cost of education is increasing, and long term debt will likely follow the person around, with no guarantee that the degree will net them a job), "work in a service industry" (which will eventually be replaced by automation, and the new job will not cover living expenses as the prior one successfully did; which will require two or three jobs to do that, taking those potential jobs away from others in the same situation), or "die in a ditch somewhere"! (which seems to be the attitude that quite a few "haves" intertwine with the idea of poverty, even if it isn't the individual's own fault that caused it).


That comment is smart and very apropos with your username. It is amazing how the rich have convinced even many poor that the poor are scum. I read something the other day about how the richest few hundred people make as much as the poorest several billion or something like that.
2013-01-28 07:15:38 PM
3 votes:
I forsee one of two scenarios:

1) Robots put everyone out of a job, rich people who own all the robots own and control everything, we fall back into fuedalism.

2) Everyone ends up working in entertainment while the robots do the labor
2013-01-28 05:26:46 PM
3 votes:

super_grass: there4igraham: It's really simple. If your job involves sitting or standing in one place doing the same thing over and over again you're going to be replaced by a machine. If your only interaction with the product of your employer is visual then you're going to be replaced by a machine. If you don't understand why said machines are going to replace you then you're dumber than said machine. If you think somebody should take care of you after a machine replaces you then you deserve to be fuel for that machine.

You either evolve or face extinction.

Machines are the sum products of all the advancements and engineering and science by the brightest minds in human history. To assume that the average Joe can beat that and earn a living is cruel and laughable.

Technological advancement is a means to improve the lives of humans. If it no longer serves that purpose, it should be culled.


The cruel part is assuming the average Joe should need to keep up with advancements. This idea that your life is worth no value if you do not work is quickly becoming anachronistic. When technology makes it possible for an entire civilization to live without having to labor, the correct reaction isn't to go "omg, I have no labor to perform anymore!" but rather "hey, look how much time I have now for porn art".

Welfare isn't a bad word. People aren't defined by their job. If there's enough wealth (and I'm not saying there is currently, but at some point of technological advancement, there will be) around such that x percent of the population really doesn't need to do squat except have babies to keep the human race going, then why is there this insistence to have an economic model that *solely* values people by employment?
2013-01-28 05:15:58 PM
3 votes:

Kaiku: Is it so hard to envision a future where working for a living is no longer the norm and everyone is afforded a basic standard of living via a guaranteed minimum income?


Yes.

I know several otherwise pretty progressive people that balk at the idea of providing such a thing.

//I'm OK with it.
2013-01-28 05:15:51 PM
3 votes:

there4igraham: It's really simple. If your job involves sitting or standing in one place doing the same thing over and over again you're going to be replaced by a machine. If your only interaction with the product of your employer is visual then you're going to be replaced by a machine. If you don't understand why said machines are going to replace you then you're dumber than said machine. If you think somebody should take care of you after a machine replaces you then you deserve to be fuel for that machine.

You either evolve or face extinction.


Machines are the sum products of all the advancements and engineering and science by the brightest minds in human history. To assume that the average Joe can beat that and earn a living is cruel and laughable.

Technological advancement is a means to improve the lives of humans. If it no longer serves that purpose, it should be culled.
2013-01-28 05:12:06 PM
3 votes:
Is it so hard to envision a future where working for a living is no longer the norm and everyone is afforded a basic standard of living via a guaranteed minimum income?
2013-01-28 05:09:21 PM
3 votes:

LineNoise: Everyone's missing the obvious solution here:

WE CAN FINALLY SEND ALL OF THE WOMEN HOME AGAIN.


Some men would love to be stay at home dads too. If only they could find a society that doesn't look at them like lazy, slovenly, deadbeats for doing so.
2013-01-28 04:56:34 PM
3 votes:

oh_please: kab: 2) create busy work for unemployed people

There's plenty of "busy work" to be done in this country. Repairing our infrastructure, cleaning up our cities, etc...the problem is that we, as a society, call it "busy work", and nobody wants to do it, and everyone looks down on that kind of thing. Bullshiat. What we need is a culture change to make this kind of work honorable again, because it is, indeed, honorable.


Well, if minimum wage were actually livable maybe people wouldnt mind these sort of jobs. Id pick up trash 30 hours a week if i could afford a small apartment and a used car and some disposable income to make my free time worthwhile. But as it is, you have even semi-skilled people working 50 hours a week and barely scraping by.
2013-01-28 04:47:52 PM
3 votes:

kab: 2) create busy work for unemployed people


There's plenty of "busy work" to be done in this country. Repairing our infrastructure, cleaning up our cities, etc...the problem is that we, as a society, call it "busy work", and nobody wants to do it, and everyone looks down on that kind of thing. Bullshiat. What we need is a culture change to make this kind of work honorable again, because it is, indeed, honorable.
2013-01-28 04:44:49 PM
3 votes:

jaybeezey: ajgeek: Does anyone smarter than me have a potential solution to this problem? Obviously we can't generate work for work's sake and not everyone can fix the machines that do work for us, but we're getting to a point where we are going to have an excess of human labor. This is both real and very serious. Idle hands and all that.

/and no, sending everyone to China won't help either.

This is why developing a genuine skill set is important. Unfortunately, no one developed a machine that can replace middle managament yet.


Even developing a skill set doesn't solve the problem completely. Say there's a factory that employs 200 people. They then bring in 10 machines that can do all the work. So the employees learn how to fix the machines. But it's not going to take all 200 to maintain 10 machines. Maybe 5 guys at the most. That's 195 people out of work. And learning another skill wont really help either because most skilled jobs already have plenty of competition.

Once machines start taking away all the unskilled labor there will just not be enough skilled jobs for everyone.
2013-01-28 04:36:53 PM
3 votes:

ajgeek: Does anyone smarter than me have a potential solution to this problem? Obviously we can't generate work for work's sake and not everyone can fix the machines that do work for us, but we're getting to a point where we are going to have an excess of human labor. This is both real and very serious. Idle hands and all that.

/and no, sending everyone to China won't help either.


Reduce the standard work week, say to 30 or 35 hours, but keep the annual compensation the same.

More people working, more money circulating through the economy, and more free time to spend it.
2013-01-28 04:32:02 PM
3 votes:
Reeks and Wrecks
upload.wikimedia.org
2013-01-28 04:31:26 PM
3 votes:
I remember a fundamental moment in my childhood was watching George Jetson from a rerun of the TV show The Jetsons. All George had to do was push a button all day long. Well, in one episode the machine broke and the button didn't work. That was the moment that I realized that learning the technology that everyone uses is pretty farking smart.

/and that's how I met your mother got into IT
2013-01-28 04:31:10 PM
3 votes:

give me doughnuts: Let robots and smart machines do all the work, and have a Star Trek economy.


Just read an economist's report about this looking more and more real by the day, and that America's at the brink. It's supposed to be a painful transition.

If robots are taking all the menial jobs and will support the entire population (destitute and wealthy, all), then will those who support the robots (programming, maintenance, administration) be the ones truly in control?
2013-01-28 04:15:18 PM
3 votes:
But, what if *I* am a machine and don't know it?

/what's a 'tortoise'?
2013-01-28 04:15:02 PM
3 votes:
Automation and outsourcing are part of the reason I get a kick when someone snarky comment about my Liberal Arts degree.
2013-01-28 04:11:27 PM
3 votes:

Eddie Adams from Torrance: Well, we could educate our citizens better so they could compete for jobs in the new information based economy, but that's socialism.... so, no.


Actually the socialist answer would be to kill all the smart people (those they have the training and the money) and put untrained uneducated people in those places. That way in a few years everyone is in the field working the crops with their bare hands. It would be perfect. All of us equal and no one better than the other.
d23 [TotalFark]
2013-01-28 04:07:45 PM
3 votes:
A study came out today that said that 50% of the US work force is underemployed...

BUT WE NEED THAT CHEAP LABOR! WE NEED ALL THOSE H1-Bs!

The U.S. is now a full plutocracy.
2013-01-28 03:54:41 PM
3 votes:
cman: Is losing a job to a machine really such a bad thing? I really dont understand why people are pissed off of technological progress.

If you had made a career out of being a travel agent, I could imagine you'd be pissed that your livelihood is gone in a matter of just a few years. There's really not much of a grace period when technology just overwhelms the industry that you work.  Ask Borders.

I see the change happening with major grocery and retail workers right now in a big hurry.
2013-01-28 02:50:48 PM
3 votes:

ajgeek: Does anyone smarter than me have a potential solution to this problem? Obviously we can't generate work for work's sake and not everyone can fix the machines that do work for us, but we're getting to a point where we are going to have an excess of human labor. This is both real and very serious. Idle hands and all that.

/and no, sending everyone to China won't help either.


Well, we could educate our citizens better so they could compete for jobs in the new information based economy, but that's socialism.... so, no.
2013-01-29 08:38:50 AM
2 votes:
Has anybody posted this yet?

http://marshallbrain.com/manna1.htm

Executive Summary: They finally crack machine vision (not even artifical intelligence!) to the point that just about ANY job can be automated. It starts with fast food, but goes from there. The end result is welfare dormitories. Except for Australia, where they said "hell with this" and decided to just let the robots do all the work and go on permanent vacation.

I think I know which one of these is the more likely outcome. :(
2013-01-28 07:09:57 PM
2 votes:
"Today we fight the machine 'culture' as it creeps toward us from the hives of artificially nursed industry and stunted taste. That we are probably foredoomed to defeat, does not alter the essential aspect of the case. The impending victory of the intruding order does not alter its intrinsic status. What is to be, is to be, but we are not obligated to grin and pretend we like it. Personally, we can do all in our power to stave off the calamity, and then step aside with the resignation of a dying man, or of a 6th century Roman confronted by the Dark Ages."

H. P. Lovecraft, 1929

/ He was pretty sure the rise of machines would destroy civilization.
// It hasn't so far, and probably won't.
/// Also, Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn.
2013-01-28 06:53:27 PM
2 votes:

o5iiawah: Cyno01: Give it a few years for the RFID tag to replace the UPC and stores wont even HAVE checkouts anymore, youll just bag up your shiat at the front of the store and walk out, everything in your cart automatically being totaled up and charged to your card. Sure you still need stockboys and a few people on the floor, but thats hundreds of thousands of entry level no skill cashiering jobs that will just be GONE.

Because its not like that wont open the market for tens of thousands of people to install, maintain, sell, repair, and distribute the RFID equipment - many of them high paying and a store that installs the system might then find itself in a position to lower its prices as compared to competitors. AS they are now spending less money on groceries, they have more money to spend in other areas of the economy which will in the aggregate create jobs.


You dont think those sort of jobs already exist with standard checkouts now? Discounting the whole RFID thing... a store goes from needing 8 checkers to 1 clerk manning 8 self checkout lanes. Keying in coupons, overriding errors, changing receipt tape, etc. Did those other 7 jobs shift to installing and repairing those self checkouts?

You replace 1000 walmart checkers in a city with RFID systems, the company making the RFID systems is the one that already sold them their old checkouts, NEC or somebody, no new jobs there. Corporate has a dozen teams traveling the country installing the things, probably the same guys who used to install standard checkouts at new stores and upgrade old ones. And maintenance? Are they going to break down more than the old ones? If they did, why install them, its not like every store has a checkout repair guy on staff now, its going to be one guy for the whole city who travels from store to store as needed, exactly like it is now.

If automation created more jobs, it wouldnt be cost effective. You said yourself, hundreds of thousands of unskilled jobs turning into tens of thousands of semi to skilled jobs. And how are people supposed to pay for school to learn those skilled jobs if there arent unskilled entry level jobs? If you replace americas half a million burger flippers with robots, it doesnt take half a million burger flipping skill level positions to design, build, install and maintain those burger flipping robots. If it took 500k people to do that, why pay for 500k robots ontop of their pay?
2013-01-28 06:40:25 PM
2 votes:

maegen: ExperianScaresCthulhu:
Didn't someone say, a long long time ago, that only a rich society could support a large 'art' class?

Anyway, the way to get those back into schools is to make them profitable for schools. How can schools make money with art and music classes?

How do they make money on sports? Schools can make money on concerts, plays, art shows, and so forth. As for society, art has more uses than paintings on walls and sculptures in halls. Just about everything we use was designed by somebody, aesthetically as well as mechanically. And I can't imagine people giving up listening to music. It seems like our whole smart phone industry sprang up around the fact that people were obsessed with bringing their music with them. I might be able to see people giving up reading, maybe. But somebody still needs to come up with the plots to tv shows, movies, games, etc., even if all the actors and scenery are replaced by CGI. People are still, presumably, going to want new styles of clothing, different looking cars, aesthetically pleasing and interesting houses, and so forth. The machines will be able to do all the menial labor of it, and people will do the part that gives it the human touch that I'm not sure machines will really be able to replace. I'm not sure if I'm expressing my thoughts well enough.



I agree. It's funny how today what a low value some people put on creative arts, but eventually much engineering and science will be automated away - in fact, it already is, if you've spent any time in a lab recently. There are not enough jobs for all the science majors graduating because of this. What few jobs that remain go to the creative ones with novel ways of solving problems.

Eventually all that will be left for man to do is have ideas to express and implement and finally, space exploration. The means of production will be no longer be much of an obstacle. Worried about using up natural resources? Asteroids, our neighborhood gas giants and the sun have plenty to last a looong time.
2013-01-28 06:19:08 PM
2 votes:

ExperianScaresCthulhu: olddeegee: ajgeek: Does anyone smarter than me have a potential solution to this problem? Obviously we can't generate work for work's sake and not everyone can fix the machines that do work for us, but we're getting to a point where we are going to have an excess of human labor. This is both real and very serious. Idle hands and all that.

/and no, sending everyone to China won't help either.

It will take a Star Trek type of society to deal with the societal shift's end result. Eventually, human work to survive will be unnecessary. Of course this requires a societal shift away from our typical capitalist understanding of life. If we can feed, house, and educate everyone, there is no need to toil daily. Life would become a pursuit of knowledge. Yet greed is essential to our system as it is now, so the end result is obvious, but how we'll get there isn't. Very Rodenberryan. This isn't even taking a probable Kurzweil type of singularity into account.

Knowledge of what? what is there to learn? And what would you do with that knowledge once you got it? That's not human nature. The pursuit is not of knowledge, but of pleasure. What do the idle rich do all day, compete for noble prizes? nah, man. They compete for pleasures. To be idle and rich is not to be Tony Stark, it's to be an Eldar. or a Kuwaiti.

As for what does one do with knowledge once one has it.................... doesn't Israel have an entire welfare class of scholars who do nothing all day but read the Torah and make babies? And yet, what do they do with all that studying?

Mankind is not about knowledge. Mankind is about pleasure. Sometimes the two intersect. But at the end of the day, pleasure will always win.

So far. But we've never been presented with this massive of a societal change. It will happen. Besides, knowledge is pleasure. You don't sound like you have any artist in you. I'm a societal optimist. It will be hard and probably involve war, but the shift will happen.
2013-01-28 06:14:42 PM
2 votes:

Internet Meme Rogers: kindms: The only thing holding back automation in tons of industries is that its still cheaper to pay someone $8 an hour to do it.

I work for a company that sells automation, and at the bottom of each sales proposal we have a line that says "This machine works for $X an hour." It's nearly always less than you'd have to pay a person to do the same job, and not as well as the machine will do it.

Getting a kick out of TFA and this thread, since my job is taking away other people's jobs.


Good luck in hell.
2013-01-28 06:08:20 PM
2 votes:

maegen: Can't believe nobody's brought up creative markets. Art, music, literature, even the actual aesthetic design of things such as websites, boxes, marketing literature, etc. In theory, machines might be able to do some of it someday, but it won't mean anything. These are forms of human expression. A large part of what makes them great is the connection with another person. Of course, these are exactly the things everybody is, mindbogglingly, trying to remove all funding for in schools.


Indeed. The very thing that most makes us human - our creativity - is what society values least. The robot apocalypse isn't coming, it is here. WE are the robots.
2013-01-28 05:54:09 PM
2 votes:

abhorrent1: ajgeek: Does anyone smarter than me have a potential solution to this problem?

soylent green


Beat me to it!  Seriously though.  If your job is not focused on putting other people out of work, you better watch out.  This is essentially what most IT jobs are about.  The other safe areas in my opinion are service jobs that involve fixing/building thing (for now) and entertainment. (Have to keep the unemployed occupied some how) Automation is not going to gid rid of all the other jobs,  but those jobs are going to be reduced in number so you had better be the best in your field if you want to stay employed.  No troll Just my opinion
2013-01-28 05:50:16 PM
2 votes:

The sound of one hand clapping: jaybeezey: ajgeek: Does anyone smarter than me have a potential solution to this problem? Obviously we can't generate work for work's sake and not everyone can fix the machines that do work for us, but we're getting to a point where we are going to have an excess of human labor. This is both real and very serious. Idle hands and all that.

/and no, sending everyone to China won't help either.

This is why developing a genuine skill set is important. Unfortunately, no one developed a machine that can replace middle managament yet.

Even developing a skill set doesn't solve the problem completely. Say there's a factory that employs 200 people. They then bring in 10 machines that can do all the work. So the employees learn how to fix the machines. But it's not going to take all 200 to maintain 10 machines. Maybe 5 guys at the most. That's 195 people out of work. And learning another skill wont really help either because most skilled jobs already have plenty of competition.

Once machines start taking away all the unskilled labor there will just not be enough skilled jobs for everyone.


Yeah, shame no one ever wants more stuff, so those 195 people freed up have nothing to do ever again (and the product now sells for probably 10% or less of it's previous price as competition will force prices down if so much less costs are involved in making it).

If the simplistic way most people in this thread look at the economy was even remotely related to reality then over 95% of people would be unemployed by now given the massive increases in productivity in the last 200 years or so.

The big problem that is created by automation and productivity improvements is how unstable it tends to make the economy - when so little of what we buy is absolute necessity it means it is easy for demand to collapse if people get jittery. This is one reason why a large government sector is a good thing - it inherently stabilizes the economy, reducing the shocks from the vagaries of the free market system.

Of course this goes out of the window when machines can think better than us across the board, but that is a long way off yet.
2013-01-28 05:48:55 PM
2 votes:

Reverend Monkeypants: Ya know what?
fark this guy.
Making 67 grand a year for reading farking numbers?
I don't care how farking long you've been doing it.
It's as bad as the $40 an hour assholes who attach bumpers to cars in Detroit...
The $50 an hour construction site flag wavers.
fark all y'all.


Yes. Let your masters teach you to rage about overpaid number readers. THEY'RE the ones keeping you down, you temporarily embarrassed millionaire.
2013-01-28 05:45:44 PM
2 votes:

olddeegee: ajgeek: Does anyone smarter than me have a potential solution to this problem? Obviously we can't generate work for work's sake and not everyone can fix the machines that do work for us, but we're getting to a point where we are going to have an excess of human labor. This is both real and very serious. Idle hands and all that.

/and no, sending everyone to China won't help either.

It will take a Star Trek type of society to deal with the societal shift's end result. Eventually, human work to survive will be unnecessary. Of course this requires a societal shift away from our typical capitalist understanding of life. If we can feed, house, and educate everyone, there is no need to toil daily. Life would become a pursuit of knowledge. Yet greed is essential to our system as it is now, so the end result is obvious, but how we'll get there isn't. Very Rodenberryan. This isn't even taking a probable Kurzweil type of singularity into account.


Knowledge of what? what is there to learn? And what would you do with that knowledge once you got it? That's not human nature. The pursuit is not of knowledge, but of pleasure. What do the idle rich do all day, compete for noble prizes? nah, man. They compete for pleasures. To be idle and rich is not to be Tony Stark, it's to be an Eldar. or a Kuwaiti.

As for what does one do with knowledge once one has it.................... doesn't Israel have an entire welfare class of scholars who do nothing all day but read the Torah and make babies? And yet, what do they do with all that studying?

Mankind is not about knowledge. Mankind is about pleasure. Sometimes the two intersect. But at the end of the day, pleasure will always win.
2013-01-28 05:40:33 PM
2 votes:

Dow Jones and the Temple of Doom: What's really going to be fun is when the "safe" jobs start to be lost to automation: engineers, IT admins, programmers, etc...

That's when the real butthurt will begin.


I use scripting to do the work of several programmers in my job. Seriously, I write programs that write programs. When you are dealing with simulations, there are so many interconnections that need to be spot on, you can't trust it to even the guy who wrote it to keep the t's dotted and i's crossed.

In a bigger company, we would have a cast of thousands working from a spec, constantly throwing changes over the wall and praying they work in production.

I just update my spec, and the scripts put together all of the C and Tcl code that would be needed to implement the simulation, the user interface to the simulation, and the validation tools to import and export data to other models. For bonus points, I can even automate the process of generating regression tests.
2013-01-28 05:35:30 PM
2 votes:

OnlyM3: It is the "Right" that ridicules the leftist continually lowering standards.


You mean like, lowering standards by trying to undermine the integrity of science education by inserting 'intelligent design' into class? Let the students "decide" what the truth is, right? because reality is willing to conform to our preferences...

Oh, and no child left behind, which lowers education to the lowest common denominator, totally something the left did, right?

The "Right" generally thinks education is about job training and economic growth, while the "Left" understands that democracy cannot function without a well educated citizenry able to see through the charlatanry endemic to any society, especially in politics and business.
2013-01-28 05:31:20 PM
2 votes:
The sound of one hand clapping:It would create a very obvious class divide because the jobless probably would have little to no disposable income so they'd be limited to hobbies and pursuits that cost no money.

I think some disposable income would be a necessary and desirable part of a basic standard of living. People need entertainment, especially people who no longer have work to expend their energy. Otherwise they will become bored and destructive.
2013-01-28 05:29:06 PM
2 votes:

vudukungfu: jaybeezey: This is why developing a genuine skill set is important. Unfortunately, no one developed a machine that can replace middle managament yet.

I do tech support. I used to do upholstery, and I was a baker and a chef, and a fielder in a textile mill, and also been a lot of other things. If you want to live, get a hobby. If you want to survive, learn to adapt.

If you banked your soul on being one thing only and can't do that now, well, the world needs ditchdiggers, too.


You guys are talking microeconomics when the problem is macroeconomics.
2013-01-28 05:28:25 PM
2 votes:

ajgeek: Does anyone smarter than me have a potential solution to this problem?


A) Breed less
or
B) Find a new frontier to grow into. Earth is not lacking for people
or
C) Extinction level event (war, plague, natural disaster)
or
D) I have no farking clue
or
E) Lower taxes (that apparently solves everything)
2013-01-28 05:23:10 PM
2 votes:

FishyFred: infrastructure


And right back to square one we go.
Because, say you mean "road crew".
Well, one of these:
www.freefoto.com
Does the work of a hundred of these
www.pmba.org.uk
Without half the biatching about pay, benefits, or working conditions...
2013-01-28 05:23:01 PM
2 votes:

Kaiku: Is it so hard to envision a future where working for a living is no longer the norm and everyone is afforded a basic standard of living via a guaranteed minimum income?


Personally, I'm waiting for my replicator & personal holodeck* to be invented...

* if something like that is ever made, it would probably be the last invention of mankind...
2013-01-28 05:21:01 PM
2 votes:

Kaiku: Is it so hard to envision a future where working for a living is no longer the norm and everyone is afforded a basic standard of living via a guaranteed minimum income?


This is pretty much how I see it turning out. Some people will always remain in employment because they will either be in charge of companies or maintaining the machines. And the rest will be on welfare. It would create a very obvious class divide because the jobless probably would have little to no disposable income so they'd be limited to hobbies and pursuits that cost no money.

It would be interesting to see how this kind of situation would also affect the arts and entertainment industries. What if there were no longer thousands upon thousands who could pay to see a concert or a sports event? Perhaps these would even become free, with priority 'first class' seating for the minority who could afford to pay. It could lead to some very interesting changes in our society.
2013-01-28 05:16:06 PM
2 votes:

Eddie Adams from Torrance: ajgeek: Does anyone smarter than me have a potential solution to this problem? Obviously we can't generate work for work's sake and not everyone can fix the machines that do work for us, but we're getting to a point where we are going to have an excess of human labor. This is both real and very serious. Idle hands and all that.

/and no, sending everyone to China won't help either.

Well, we could educate our citizens better so they could compete for jobs in the new information based economy, but that's socialism.... so, no.


You know, the day isn't far off that a radiologist can be replaced with image analysis software, and lots of legal things could be automated.... So there are going to be repercussions all the way up the food chain.
2013-01-28 05:15:57 PM
2 votes:

there4igraham: If your job involves sitting or standing in one place doing the same thing over and over again you're going to be replaced by a machine.


That might not happen as soon as you might be thinking. There's a lot of repetitive tasks in manufacturing that are still fiddly enough to keep machines from doing the job at the moment, and from what I've seen (I'll admit I don't follow it as close anymore) they aren't really very close to solving the problem. Picking up a small part from a pile of other small parts, orienting it correctly and placing it in a jig, then removing it and putting it back in a pile isn't as easy for robots as it is for humans. Yet.
2013-01-28 05:15:12 PM
2 votes:
I always think of Patton Oswalt's sketch on grocery store robots whenever I hear about this classic modern conundrum.

Also:
2.bp.blogspot.com

I'm doing water treatment and environmental science. We use lots of technology to test water, soil and air, but you still need humans to go out and collect the samples, run the SCADA chemical dispensing systems and write up the reports.

You have to look for jobs that are impossible for computers to do. Anything involving creativity, reasoning, interpreting of data, or going to remote sites with no infrastructure will need people. The legal system, scientific, education, health care and beauty industries have jobs that machines could never do. Manufacturing, natural resource extraction, anything involving tracking and filing inventory and data, forget it.
2013-01-28 05:12:40 PM
2 votes:
Watch "How it's made" on Science Channel sometime.

Imagine all those food productions lines back when they were manual. Oreos were hand assembled. Snickers were made by union members on giant temperature control tables. People manually filling corn starch trays, pressing in shapes, and filling the indents with hot goo. Hershey kisses were wrapped by hand.

If you have a repetitive job or one that can be replaced by a wireless sensor you need to look for a new line of work NOW. I'd recommend getting in the line of installing the thing that's going to replace you.
2013-01-28 05:11:55 PM
2 votes:

Seige101: The guy is 66, he should of retired and let someone else have the cake job. I am actually surprised they still have traditional meter readers. Around here they drive by in a van with a few antennas on the roof and read the whole neighborhood in like 5 minutes. In a few years i expect the meter to beam the data back to the mother-ship power company servers in real time.


The power and gas company just got around to replacing my whole neighborhoods meters with new ones that allow them to do that about six months ago.

Older neighborhoods like mine typically take a lot longer for new technology to filter out to them. For example I still can't get DSL where I'm living at.
2013-01-28 05:08:25 PM
2 votes:

Nemo's Brother: ajgeek:
/and no, sending everyone to China won't help either.

That was all I had.


Which is ironic, because China is where white Americans usually turned when they wanted humans that they could work like machines.
/oh don't look at me like that, it's true and you know it
2013-01-28 05:06:30 PM
2 votes:
Everyone's missing the obvious solution here:

WE CAN FINALLY SEND ALL OF THE WOMEN HOME AGAIN.
2013-01-28 05:04:06 PM
2 votes:

StrandedInAZ: It sounds like you're the exception to what I've seen. None of my friends who have kids spank their kids. None of them. And, believe me, you can tell. Most of them say they would, but they're so afraid of their kid going to school and reporting them or calling CPS on them or something.

My girlfriend's daughter dropped an f-bomb on her recently. When my girlfriend told me what happened (we were on the phone), I asked my girlfriend if her daughter still had all her teeth. My mom would have KILLED me for that. Hell, I still don't swear when I'm around my folks, and I'm 40!


Some things require corporal punishment for a child under 10 to understand.. At least that was my feeling going into parenting. The last time I spanked him was about 2 years ago when he called my girlfriend a whore - take it in context - my X-Wife called her that and I'm sure he picked up on it. Anyway I tore his ass up and he lost his TV for a month and was grounded in his room for a solid week. I don't fark around when it comes to punishments. As a result though he really is a loving and caring child and fully appreciates and understands his limits. My mom though.. She used to make me pull my pants down and then she would spank me with a belt between 10-15 times and make me count. If I was crying too hard to say the number properly she would say "redo" and belt me again. I turned out just fine ha.
2013-01-28 04:58:12 PM
2 votes:
I have met a lot of people at bars who work in automation. programming, etc.
Their argument is that they are helping the day come where no one has to work, so they are helping.
They argue that for every assembly job they robotize, there is no loss in jobs because programmers need to be hired.
They don't seem to notice that one programmer can take out thousands of jobs.

The argument that they are saving the world by making robots do everything-
I tell them I like the idea, but it does not seem to be something that we can achieve at this time in our society.

Who is feeding the factory workers you just laid off with your robots? Do they now get free food and shelter? Oh, no they do not.
So how does this robots save the humans from working thing actually work?

They always run out of good answers really fast.
2013-01-28 04:54:22 PM
2 votes:
Why don't they retrain the meter readers to bury and service all utility lines? I hate that every winter or tornado my power goes out because the poles fell over, or got sucked up or whatever or ice snaps the lines.
2013-01-28 04:53:18 PM
2 votes:

xynix: I spanked my son until it hurt my hand more than his ass which was at about age 9 1/2. Now I just threaten to take away his iPhone (which he earned by the way) and he does what I ask. He has a 4.0 GPA and if that slips at all he loses the phone. It's really not that hard to discipline a child these days it's just a different technique. Grounding a kid has become mobile or electronics based.


My kids fear having their memory card deleted far more than any spanking.
2013-01-28 04:49:02 PM
2 votes:
When the gas meters in Chicago switched over to WIFI, they sent a dude with a WIFI enabled tablet to walk down the street, picking up the account numbers and usage stats.
Last week I noticed that now they just have a truck with antennas that simply drives down the street at 20 or so, picking up the signals.

I wondered how long it would be before they removed the foot patrol. Knew they had to phase it in so as their employees would not see that their jobs were in jeopardy...
2013-01-28 04:46:58 PM
2 votes:

Another Government Employee: azmoviez: cman: Is losing a job to a machine really such a bad thing? I really dont understand why people are pissed off of technological progress.

If you had made a career out of being a travel agent, I could imagine you'd be pissed that your livelihood is gone in a matter of just a few years. There's really not much of a grace period when technology just overwhelms the industry that you work.  Ask Borders.

I see the change happening with major grocery and retail workers right now in a big hurry.

It would have happened already if customer acceptance had been better. The software is out there.


Automatic checkouts as they are SUUUUUUUCK. For whatever reason the UI is crap compared to what actual cashiers have. BUT, its a stepping stone. Give it a few years for the RFID tag to replace the UPC and stores wont even HAVE checkouts anymore, youll just bag up your shiat at the front of the store and walk out, everything in your cart automatically being totaled up and charged to your card. Sure you still need stockboys and a few people on the floor, but thats hundreds of thousands of entry level no skill cashiering jobs that will just be GONE.

The only thing holding back automation in tons of industries is that its still cheaper to pay someone $8 an hour to do it. But automation will always get cheaper, and the benefits of being able to work 24/7 without a break, or needing health care, or even training make it a very attractive option.
2013-01-28 04:42:58 PM
2 votes:

StrandedInAZ: For me, it's seeing how entitled today's kids are. I don't imagine I'd be able to raise a kid the way my parents raised me. I got hit when I acted up and deserved it. If I'd been born 20 years later, CPS would have probably taken me away from them, even though I never thought I was abused. My parents couldn't afford brand name clothing or sneakers, but we didn't care because nobody else in our neighborhood had that stuff, either. We as kids understood mom and dad were doing the best they could and wouldn't think of asking our parents for something we knew they couldn't afford. My parents didn't believe in buying things on credit (except for the house, which had a mortgage). If you couldn't afford to buy it with cash, you didn't need it. I've worked since I was 11, starting with a paper route. If I wanted designer sneakers, I could buy them with my own money.


I spanked my son until it hurt my hand more than his ass which was at about age 9 1/2. Now I just threaten to take away his iPhone (which he earned by the way) and he does what I ask. He has a 4.0 GPA and if that slips at all he loses the phone. It's really not that hard to discipline a child these days it's just a different technique. Grounding a kid has become mobile or electronics based.

There aren't many jobs a 12 year old can get paid for these days so he earns money by doing chores.. Lawn work, etc. I don't buy things on credit either and my son knows this and I explain almost every time I make a transaction that cash (debit card) is how we buy things. If you can't pay cash you do not buy it with the exception of major purchases and then those are only to be within your means.

The major difference between my youth and his is that I grew up so poor my mother washed our clothes in the bathtub with generic bar soap and a washing board. No I'm not 80.. I'm 39. I'm pretty well off though and it's hard to make him realize that we don't always get what we want which is why I randomly tell him I'm broke when he asks for something. It could be as little as a bag of skittles or something and I'll say I have no money until I get paid on X day.. Etc. Creating an illusion of poverty even though we live in a mcmansion.
2013-01-28 04:42:52 PM
2 votes:

xynix: jobs like this one should have never existed


Why not? It needed done, and at the time there wasn't a machine to do it.
2013-01-28 04:42:32 PM
2 votes:

meat0918: kindms: ajgeek: Does anyone smarter than me have a potential solution to this problem? Obviously we can't generate work for work's sake and not everyone can fix the machines that do work for us, but we're getting to a point where we are going to have an excess of human labor. This is both real and very serious. Idle hands and all that.

/and no, sending everyone to China won't help either.

The same solution that always fixes this problem. WAR

Basically there will have to be a really big war that kills millions of people or a virus. It makes me wonder if we should start causing trouble between India and China. Probably the quickest and most efficient way to remove 100s of millions of humans from the work force, reduce over population etc etc

both are nuclear armed. They just need a reason to help the rest of us out.

Why do you think we're letting the opium trade go relatively unopposed in Afghanistan?


Because westerners like their Smack ?
kab
2013-01-28 04:41:26 PM
2 votes:

kindms: Basically there will have to be a really big war that kills millions of people or a virus. It makes me wonder if we should start causing trouble between India and China. Probably the quickest and most efficient way to remove 100s of millions of humans from the work force, reduce over population etc etc


You're also reducing demand by those same 100's of millions, so really you're not accomplishing anything other than temporarily hiring a lot of grave diggers.
2013-01-28 04:39:53 PM
2 votes:

rustypouch: ajgeek: Does anyone smarter than me have a potential solution to this problem? Obviously we can't generate work for work's sake and not everyone can fix the machines that do work for us, but we're getting to a point where we are going to have an excess of human labor. This is both real and very serious. Idle hands and all that.

/and no, sending everyone to China won't help either.

Reduce the standard work week, say to 30 or 35 hours, but keep the annual compensation the same.

More people working, more money circulating through the economy, and more free time to spend it.


Try persuading any business owner to do that. I don't think they'll react well to the idea of allowing their employees to work less hours a year but paying them the same money.
2013-01-28 04:37:51 PM
2 votes:

ajgeek: Does anyone smarter than me have a potential solution to this problem? Obviously we can't generate work for work's sake and not everyone can fix the machines that do work for us, but we're getting to a point where we are going to have an excess of human labor. This is both real and very serious. Idle hands and all that.

/and no, sending everyone to China won't help either.


The same solution that always fixes this problem. WAR

Basically there will have to be a really big war that kills millions of people or a virus. It makes me wonder if we should start causing trouble between India and China. Probably the quickest and most efficient way to remove 100s of millions of humans from the work force, reduce over population etc etc

both are nuclear armed. They just need a reason to help the rest of us out.
2013-01-28 04:33:05 PM
2 votes:

Another Government Employee: The My Little Pony Killer: ajgeek: Does anyone smarter than me have a potential solution to this problem? Obviously we can't generate work for work's sake and not everyone can fix the machines that do work for us, but we're getting to a point where we are going to have an excess of human labor. This is both real and very serious. Idle hands and all that.

/and no, sending everyone to China won't help either.

Get used to asking if your customers want fries with that.

That will be automated, too.


They've got the order taker interface in some places.

Plus it already is for burgers..

At many McDonald's the fries are already partially automated, and the drinks are as well.

Pizza too
2013-01-28 04:32:52 PM
2 votes:

durbnpoisn: Didn't this happen to Charlie's father in "Charlie and the Chocalte Factory"?

He did okay after a machine replaced him. He simply took a job repairing the machines that took his job.


Yeah, but Grandpa Joe sat around on his ass because he "couldn't walk", then when Charlie got the Golden Ticket, all of a sudden, he's up and dancing around, WTF is that?
2013-01-28 04:32:48 PM
2 votes:
About 70% of my job could be done by machines that exist right now. It's a menial, unskilled retail job. The only reason it isn't currently done by a machine is that it would probably still be slightly more expensive than my meager wage. But I bet that cost is creeping right down in line with my wages.

Many of the people I work with have qualifications but simply can't get jobs in their specialist areas. There aren't always enough skilled jobs to go around. So when the machines become cheaper, educated or not, most will be out of work. 1 machine could probably replace 20 of us and that 1 machine will probably only require maintenance by 1 guy. So 20 jobs lost, 1 created. And once that change takes place, thousands more will also loose their jobs. And that's just in my area of retail alone. I can understand why people are concerned.
2013-01-28 04:32:30 PM
2 votes:

meat0918: Oh, and I HATE the idea of robots getting my books. I find a lot of interesting reads (and a few stinkers of course), just browsing the aisles.

Yeah, I know, I can browse a virtual bookshelf with search capabilities more efficiently, but damn it, maybe I like my library meandering time!


Search will only help you find things you already know you want.  Browsing is where the addons come from.
2013-01-28 04:28:10 PM
2 votes:

Reverend Monkeypants: Ya know what?
fark this guy.
Making 67 grand a year for reading farking numbers?
I don't care how farking long you've been doing it.
It's as bad as the $40 an hour assholes who attach bumpers to cars in Detroit...
The $50 an hour construction site flag wavers.
fark all y'all.



Exactly.Anybody making more than you needs to have their wages cut, so those people who are already wealthy can become even more wealthy. Because YOUR job is important and you DESERVE to be paid what you make!

/not really, there are probably a billion people in this world who will do your job better and more cheaply, and the Mitt Romneys of the world will give them your job soon enough. And you will cheer.
2013-01-28 04:24:22 PM
2 votes:

doczoidberg: Thinking about the jobless future makes me feel a little less regret for never having kids.

Yessir, things don't look good for our species.


For me, it's seeing how entitled today's kids are. I don't imagine I'd be able to raise a kid the way my parents raised me. I got hit when I acted up and deserved it. If I'd been born 20 years later, CPS would have probably taken me away from them, even though I never thought I was abused. My parents couldn't afford brand name clothing or sneakers, but we didn't care because nobody else in our neighborhood had that stuff, either. We as kids understood mom and dad were doing the best they could and wouldn't think of asking our parents for something we knew they couldn't afford. My parents didn't believe in buying things on credit (except for the house, which had a mortgage). If you couldn't afford to buy it with cash, you didn't need it. I've worked since I was 11, starting with a paper route. If I wanted designer sneakers, I could buy them with my own money.

As for the future of the species, I'm more optimistic than you. However, I think the ones who will survive are the ones who learn to adapt. You can't just bury your head in the sand and pretend progress isn't happening. If people who had jobs such as a travel agent didn't see the obsolescence of their jobs coming, they weren't paying attention. If you do a job that a machine can do or that the internet now allows your clients to do themselves, then you should be training and preparing to do something else. Even the pron industry has been affected by the internet boom. If pron isn't safe, nothing is.

/I see what I did there
2013-01-28 04:23:52 PM
2 votes:

ajgeek: Does anyone smarter than me have a potential solution to this problem? Obviously we can't generate work for work's sake and not everyone can fix the machines that do work for us, but we're getting to a point where we are going to have an excess of human labor. This is both real and very serious. Idle hands and all that.

/and no, sending everyone to China won't help either.


Start another World War to get rid of unemployed people? (got nothin')
2013-01-28 04:16:42 PM
2 votes:
Data entry was the first and only job I truly enjoyed. The work happened effortlessly while I listened to audiobooks and music.

/Damn scanners
2013-01-28 04:15:06 PM
2 votes:

Jument: cman: Is losing a job to a machine really such a bad thing?

I really dont understand why people are pissed off of technological progress.

It's only a bad thing if you're the one who ends up homeless as a result.


That is an argument for proper unemployment safety nets, training schemes, adult education systems, and so on, not an argument to hold up technological progress to keep what become effectively ditch digging jobs that could be automated but aren't just to avoid the issues around retraining, etc.
2013-01-28 04:14:24 PM
2 votes:
So those unemployed people have to find other things to do. But USA isn't exactly known for its social mobility.
2013-01-28 04:13:16 PM
2 votes:
What's really going to be fun is when the "safe" jobs start to be lost to automation: engineers, IT admins, programmers, etc...

That's when the real butthurt will begin.
2013-01-28 03:05:05 PM
2 votes:

ajgeek: Obviously we can't generate work for work's sake


There will always be infrastructure that needs rebuilding or refreshing.
2013-01-28 03:04:52 PM
2 votes:

i.imgur.com

What your next job interview might look like.


/Not obscure

2013-01-28 01:16:50 PM
2 votes:
Welcome to the Industrial Age.
2013-01-30 01:26:45 AM
1 votes:

maegen: Can't believe nobody's brought up creative markets. Art, music, literature, even the actual aesthetic design of things such as websites, boxes, marketing literature, etc. In theory, machines might be able to do some of it someday, but it won't mean anything. These are forms of human expression. A large part of what makes them great is the connection with another person. Of course, these are exactly the things everybody is, mindbogglingly, trying to remove all funding for in schools.


That's because too many of these knuckleheaded morans think that art and design are just "hobbies", and not something people go to school for and train years for and get degrees in and study as their life's work. In their tiny minds it's "all on the computer", as if there were a "car" or "house" button in AutoCad or SolidWorks, an "animation" button in 3dStudio Max or Maya, a "book design" button in Adobe Illustrator or InDesign, or a "make good picture" button in Adobe Photoshop.

They have no clue about the creative process because they take good design for granted. From the car they drive to the walmart clothes they wear to the television they sit their fat blubbery asses in front of all day and all that appears on the screen, all are products of a designer's mind and hands. This is why they think that all they have to do to get something like wedding invitations done is to go find the neighbor's kid who "knows photoshop" instead of hiring a graphic artist... then they end up with sh*t printed on dayglo green construction paper in red and black ink with five different typefaces in eight different sizes on the same sheet from an HP deskjet color printer.

It's also why these same dimwits don't want to pay designers sh*t, and constantly try to get free art. "Oh you like doing this, right?"
/yeah I like doing it
//but it's still f*cking work
//people don't have to hate their jobs just because you hate yours
2013-01-29 12:59:25 PM
1 votes:

d23: A study came out today that said that 50% of the US work force is underemployed...

BUT WE NEED THAT CHEAP LABOR! WE NEED ALL THOSE H1-Bs!

The U.S. is now a full plutocracy.



I have worked with more than two dozen H1-B visa holders. They typically are really hard working, unlike many of the natural born citizens I work with. They also have advanced technical training unlike many natural born citizens.

Also, contrary to your clearly misinformed beliefs, employees here on visas are paid equivalent rates to non-visa holders. It's not indentured servitude, it's a method to get skills and a work-ethic.

Also, please keep in mind your visa status is contingent upon employment. Most of them don't have any safety net to fall back on, so they work their asses off.
2013-01-28 10:05:16 PM
1 votes:

DrPainMD: super_grass: Contrary to our negative view of luddites: efficiency and automation do cost jobs.

200 years ago, 90% of Americans worked in food production. Today it's only 5%. We don't have an 85% unemployment rate. Think about it. The Luddites deserve their reputation.


i never expected to click Smart on one of your posts, but here we are
2013-01-28 09:08:35 PM
1 votes:

FatherChaos: Just because no one has posted it yet. DURRRK A DURRR!!

America has always been a nation of innovation. Our technological improvements are one of the reason we're sitting at #1 in the world's economy. However, as has been stated in this article, that's because these advancements have been to enhance our work and not necessarily to replace human workers. One bulldozer can do the work of 100 guys, but you still need a guy driving the bulldozer. Nowadays, it seems there are so many jobs that can be done automatically that we're advancing ourselves to the unemployment line.


No you don't. I work with these guys. The entire mining industry in Australia is going automated. If you can fly a plane and bomb terrorists from a hemisphere away, you can dig rocks too.

autonomoussolutions.com
Link
2013-01-28 09:05:14 PM
1 votes:
Ever seen Wall-E? We're maybe two generations away.
2013-01-28 09:04:42 PM
1 votes:

imgod2u:

The reason it's viewed as less important in the context of school is that it's not really viewed as something that's as teachable in a curriculum, lecture style environment compared to say, math and science. Creativity isn't exactly devalued, it's just viewed as something parents and peers have to foster because an authoritarian school system really can't.


The real problem of this is that many children, especially at the lower end of the income spectrum who are most likely to be adversely affected by the changing economy, are unlikely to have a space/time to explore and discover their creative talents/potential unless space is made for that in the schools. Even for someone natively creative and engaged,it's very easy to learn to suppress that (creativity/imagination) is the system in which you spend the majority of your structured time tells you it's of no value. Schools that try to produce drones rather than engaged, thinking citizens are counterproductive at best.
2013-01-28 08:33:00 PM
1 votes:

super_grass: Contrary to our negative view of luddites: efficiency and automation do cost jobs.


200 years ago, 90% of Americans worked in food production. Today it's only 5%. We don't have an 85% unemployment rate. Think about it. The Luddites deserve their reputation.
2013-01-28 08:29:37 PM
1 votes:

imgod2u: Fano: Kaiku: Is it so hard to envision a future where working for a living is no longer the norm and everyone is afforded a basic standard of living via a guaranteed minimum income?

And who are these noble people who will pay bums to lay around?

The minority who don't want the majority (of bums) to rise up against them. Even Caesar provided coliseums.


In the end, panum et circusae isn't a solid strategy.It's demeaning and dehumanizing. People need a purpose. Think of what trust fund kids do with their time and realize that an infinite amount of money wouldn't be enough.
2013-01-28 08:24:52 PM
1 votes:

berylman: DarkSoulNoHope: Nice summation there o bleak one.


Sometimes the truth has to come out through grim facts.
2013-01-28 08:20:37 PM
1 votes:

ashinmytomatoes: DarkSoulNoHope: Jument: cman: Is losing a job to a machine really such a bad thing?

I really dont understand why people are pissed off of technological progress.

It's only a bad thing if you're the one who ends up homeless as a result.

This! It's not that we are afraid of progress, it's the way we're afraid of progress being used.

Technological progress is not being pushed by a Roddenberrysque mindset, that eventually people will be living comfortably and poverty will be eliminated, thanks to advancement. Instead it is being pushed as a free market solution to eliminate workers and increase profits, with the mindset that those people who lost their jobs are useless now upon society and give us either one of three recommendations: "re-educate themselves into a new employment" (while cost of education is increasing, and long term debt will likely follow the person around, with no guarantee that the degree will net them a job), "work in a service industry" (which will eventually be replaced by automation, and the new job will not cover living expenses as the prior one successfully did; which will require two or three jobs to do that, taking those potential jobs away from others in the same situation), or "die in a ditch somewhere"! (which seems to be the attitude that quite a few "haves" intertwine with the idea of poverty, even if it isn't the individual's own fault that caused it).

That comment is smart and very apropos with your username. It is amazing how the rich have convinced even many poor that the poor are scum. I read something the other day about how the richest few hundred people make as much as the poorest several billion or something like that.


Here's how the rich have convinced the poor to vote against their own economic interests and hate other poor people...

rlv.zcache.com

Because you see, they aren't "poor", they're either "temporarily inconvenienced millionaires" or "future millionaires"!

/trying not to burst out laughing when I first heard it
//then I try to prevent myself from crying when I realize the ploy actually works on those people whom actually believe it
2013-01-28 08:12:59 PM
1 votes:
DarkSoulNoHope: Nice summation there o bleak one.
2013-01-28 08:11:39 PM
1 votes:

Fano: Kaiku: Is it so hard to envision a future where working for a living is no longer the norm and everyone is afforded a basic standard of living via a guaranteed minimum income?

And who are these noble people who will pay bums to lay around?


The minority who don't want the majority (of bums) to rise up against them. Even Caesar provided coliseums.
2013-01-28 07:57:02 PM
1 votes:

mama2tnt: azmoviez: cman: Is losing a job to a machine really such a bad thing? I really dont understand why people are pissed off of technological progress.

If you had made a career out of being a travel agent, I could imagine you'd be pissed that your livelihood is gone in a matter of just a few years. There's really not much of a grace period when technology just overwhelms the industry that you work.  Ask Borders.

I see the change happening with major grocery and retail workers right now in a big hurry.

I used to be a typesetter.


The late 90s/early 00s were depressing as hell for prepress. Mind you, there was also a webpage design entrepreneur across the hall from us at the time who could no longer afford to pay his 6 employees.
2013-01-28 07:24:20 PM
1 votes:

ProfessorOhki: ban_sidhe: "Today we fight the machine 'culture' as it creeps toward us from the hives of artificially nursed industry and stunted taste. That we are probably foredoomed to defeat, does not alter the essential aspect of the case. The impending victory of the intruding order does not alter its intrinsic status. What is to be, is to be, but we are not obligated to grin and pretend we like it. Personally, we can do all in our power to stave off the calamity, and then step aside with the resignation of a dying man, or of a 6th century Roman confronted by the Dark Ages."

H. P. Lovecraft, 1929

/ He was pretty sure the rise of machines would destroy civilization.
// It hasn't so far, and probably won't.
/// Also, Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn.

He wrote, before sending his manuscript off to the presses rather than employing a team of scribes...


He wrote all his stuff longhand, then typed the stuff submitted for publication. He also ate cold beans out of a can because he was too broke to afford anything else. So...no team of scribes.
2013-01-28 07:19:36 PM
1 votes:

Noticeably F.A.T.: there4igraham: If your job involves sitting or standing in one place doing the same thing over and over again you're going to be replaced by a machine.

That might not happen as soon as you might be thinking. There's a lot of repetitive tasks in manufacturing that are still fiddly enough to keep machines from doing the job at the moment, and from what I've seen (I'll admit I don't follow it as close anymore) they aren't really very close to solving the problem. Picking up a small part from a pile of other small parts, orienting it correctly and placing it in a jig, then removing it and putting it back in a pile isn't as easy for robots as it is for humans. Yet.


I will say, "how it's made" surprises me at the sort of tasks that are done by hand still.
2013-01-28 07:14:02 PM
1 votes:

inclemency: Reverend Monkeypants: Ya know what?
fark this guy.
Making 67 grand a year for reading farking numbers?
I don't care how farking long you've been doing it.
It's as bad as the $40 an hour assholes who attach bumpers to cars in Detroit...
The $50 an hour construction site flag wavers.
fark all y'all.

Yes. Let your masters teach you to rage about overpaid number readers. THEY'RE the ones keeping you down, you temporarily embarrassed millionaire.


I'm sorry. Is this man a specialist that deserves more than a McDonalds employee?

Yes, I'm serious. I know it's your "American Dream" to do as little as farking possible and get paid as much as possible to do so but this is REALLY part of crap that unbalances an economy. Overvaluation of services is good? Really? I know you scream and yell at it but don't you think we should level the playing field a little? Why should a tool who reads meters all day for 24 years make more than a farmer that busts his ass his entire life so he can eat?
2013-01-28 06:59:18 PM
1 votes:

BarkingUnicorn: Eddie Adams from Torrance: ajgeek: Does anyone smarter than me have a potential solution to this problem? Obviously we can't generate work for work's sake and not everyone can fix the machines that do work for us, but we're getting to a point where we are going to have an excess of human labor. This is both real and very serious. Idle hands and all that.

/and no, sending everyone to China won't help either.

Well, we could educate our citizens better so they could compete for jobs in the new information based economy, but that's socialism.... so, no.

People are not machines that can be programmed for any task.


No. People are machines that can be programmed for any task equal to or less than their ability. The solution is to keep your ability above that of a machine. The goal of any person should be to keep their ability at such a point that it's not replaceable by a machine at that time.

To be utilitarian about it, if the only point of you having a job is to provide you with an income; I'd just as soon give you the money for free and have a more capable machine do your job. Accomplishing things slower just to pretend that it's capitalism instead of socialism is idiotic.

ExperianScaresCthulhu: Knowledge of what? what is there to learn? And what would you do with that knowledge once you got it? That's not human nature. The pursuit is not of knowledge, but of pleasure. What do the idle rich do all day, compete for noble prizes? nah, man. They compete for pleasures. To be idle and rich is not to be Tony Stark, it's to be an Eldar. or a Kuwaiti.


sandeshkumard.files.wordpress.com
Sir Richard Branson laughs in your general direction. Personally, I were filthy rich, I'd spend my time bankrolling awesome crap for the sake of being awesome. But maybe that's because I derive pleasure from knowledge and innovation.

/hot
2013-01-28 06:52:53 PM
1 votes:
I automated my day job but I'm not telling my boss. Pretty good money in running macros.
2013-01-28 06:47:39 PM
1 votes:

Fano: And who are these noble people who will pay bums to lay around?


Currently, it's the noble taxpayer that pays the bums in Congress to sit around not getting shiat accomplished...

HaywoodJablonski: be happy that you don't have to beat your kids.


Just so we're clear...I don't HAVE to beat 'em, but I can if I want to, right?
2013-01-28 06:44:50 PM
1 votes:
All your jobs r belong to us.
2013-01-28 06:37:53 PM
1 votes:

o5iiawah: Cyno01: Give it a few years for the RFID tag to replace the UPC and stores wont even HAVE checkouts anymore, youll just bag up your shiat at the front of the store and walk out, everything in your cart automatically being totaled up and charged to your card. Sure you still need stockboys and a few people on the floor, but thats hundreds of thousands of entry level no skill cashiering jobs that will just be GONE.

Because its not like that wont open the market for tens of thousands of people to install, maintain, sell, repair, and distribute the RFID equipment - many of them high paying and a store that installs the system might then find itself in a position to lower its prices as compared to competitors. AS they are now spending less money on groceries, they have more money to spend in other areas of the economy which will in the aggregate create jobs.

The same arguments were made in nu-industrial england when the made-nails-and-screws-by-hand lobby was outraged that machines were going to take their jerbs away.


newton: I have met a lot of people at bars who work in automation. programming, etc.
Their argument is that they are helping the day come where no one has to work, so they are helping.
They argue that for every assembly job they robotize, there is no loss in jobs because programmers need to be hired.
They don't seem to notice that one programmer can take out thousands of jobs.

The argument that they are saving the world by making robots do everything-
I tell them I like the idea, but it does not seem to be something that we can achieve at this time in our society.

Who is feeding the factory workers you just laid off with your robots? Do they now get free food and shelter? Oh, no they do not.
So how does this robots save the humans from working thing actually work?

They always run out of good answers really fast.

such a shame that we dont carry shiat around on horseback now that we have cars, trucks and trains
Such a shame that we have modern machines that make parts that go into everyday items that make our lives better
Such a shame that we dont have to spend all day in a field with rudimentary hand tools now that we have tractors and plows

But I am sure you fabricated your computer by hand, with rare earth minerals dug up by your own hand-made tools, with power generated from a wheel in a nearby stream which delivers current via electricity produced from forging tons of copper ore into wire.


Way to be black and white. Either everything technology has ever done or is about to do is perfect or we need to haul things by horse? Seems legit.
2013-01-28 06:35:40 PM
1 votes:

StrandedInAZ: doczoidberg: Thinking about the jobless future makes me feel a little less regret for never having kids.

Yessir, things don't look good for our species.

For me, it's seeing how entitled today's kids are. I don't imagine I'd be able to raise a kid the way my parents raised me. I got hit when I acted up and deserved it. If I'd been born 20 years later, CPS would have probably taken me away from them, even though I never thought I was abused. My parents couldn't afford brand name clothing or sneakers, but we didn't care because nobody else in our neighborhood had that stuff, either. We as kids understood mom and dad were doing the best they could and wouldn't think of asking our parents for something we knew they couldn't afford. My parents didn't believe in buying things on credit (except for the house, which had a mortgage). If you couldn't afford to buy it with cash, you didn't need it. I've worked since I was 11, starting with a paper route. If I wanted designer sneakers, I could buy them with my own money.

As for the future of the species, I'm more optimistic than you. However, I think the ones who will survive are the ones who learn to adapt. You can't just bury your head in the sand and pretend progress isn't happening. If people who had jobs such as a travel agent didn't see the obsolescence of their jobs coming, they weren't paying attention. If you do a job that a machine can do or that the internet now allows your clients to do themselves, then you should be training and preparing to do something else. Even the pron industry has been affected by the internet boom. If pron isn't safe, nothing is.

/I see what I did there


And 100 years ago you would have been working in a factory when you were 8. And 100 years before that, your life expectancy was something like 40. And 100 years before that you would have been an indentured servant on some rich guy's farm.

What I'm saying is we're progressing, so be happy that you don't have to beat your kids
2013-01-28 06:33:22 PM
1 votes:

Evil Twin Skippy: Dow Jones and the Temple of Doom: What's really going to be fun is when the "safe" jobs start to be lost to automation: engineers, IT admins, programmers, etc...

That's when the real butthurt will begin.

I use scripting to do the work of several programmers in my job. Seriously, I write programs that write programs. When you are dealing with simulations, there are so many interconnections that need to be spot on, you can't trust it to even the guy who wrote it to keep the t's dotted and i's crossed.

In a bigger company, we would have a cast of thousands working from a spec, constantly throwing changes over the wall and praying they work in production.

I just update my spec, and the scripts put together all of the C and Tcl code that would be needed to implement the simulation, the user interface to the simulation, and the validation tools to import and export data to other models. For bonus points, I can even automate the process of generating regression tests.


I specialise in cleaning up the toxic piles of waste that are the results of well-meaning amateurs in the software industry. My day job is almost always about automating myself out of work, much in the way you use. Sadly, even if we tripled the number of shops using fully automated build and deploy, test driven, etc, I would still be facing an eternity of work.

Cheers.
2013-01-28 06:32:13 PM
1 votes:
If your job involves looking at numbers and writing them down, and if you get paid $67,000 a year to do so, don't be surprised when your job goes away

/Duh
2013-01-28 06:30:28 PM
1 votes:

ExperianScaresCthulhu:
Didn't someone say, a long long time ago, that only a rich society could support a large 'art' class?

Anyway, the way to get those back into schools is to make them profitable for schools. How can schools make money with art and music classes?


How do they make money on sports? Schools can make money on concerts, plays, art shows, and so forth. As for society, art has more uses than paintings on walls and sculptures in halls. Just about everything we use was designed by somebody, aesthetically as well as mechanically. And I can't imagine people giving up listening to music. It seems like our whole smart phone industry sprang up around the fact that people were obsessed with bringing their music with them. I might be able to see people giving up reading, maybe. But somebody still needs to come up with the plots to tv shows, movies, games, etc., even if all the actors and scenery are replaced by CGI. People are still, presumably, going to want new styles of clothing, different looking cars, aesthetically pleasing and interesting houses, and so forth. The machines will be able to do all the menial labor of it, and people will do the part that gives it the human touch that I'm not sure machines will really be able to replace. I'm not sure if I'm expressing my thoughts well enough.
2013-01-28 06:22:24 PM
1 votes:
I own a 40-acre farm.

Ha! Ha! Estoy usando el Internet!
2013-01-28 06:21:10 PM
1 votes:
I work in banking, and granted everything I do could be automated, but you wouldn't want it to. When the computer screws up, it's not just a minor problem, it's a HUGE problem, and I've seen it happen. You don't want to rely 100% on computers when money is involved.
2013-01-28 06:17:06 PM
1 votes:

TheAlmightyOS: rustypouch: ajgeek: Does anyone smarter than me have a potential solution to this problem? Obviously we can't generate work for work's sake and not everyone can fix the machines that do work for us, but we're getting to a point where we are going to have an excess of human labor. This is both real and very serious. Idle hands and all that.

/and no, sending everyone to China won't help either.

Reduce the standard work week, say to 30 or 35 hours, but keep the annual compensation the same.

More people working, more money circulating through the economy, and more free time to spend it.

this... isn't a bad idea.

The issue that I see is that if we do that, you would be essentially paying two people for the same job; doubling labor costs in very short order. Unless there was some incentive for businesses to "throw away" money like that I really don't see it happening.

/honestly though, what is the point of capitalism? What is the point of collecting so much money that you would never be able to spend it all in your lifetime?


Mandatory time and a half for overtime originated in the New Deal, in part to encourage exactly this kind of work spreading.
2013-01-28 06:13:19 PM
1 votes:
If there's 15% unemployment everyone should only work 4 out of the 5 days they otherwise would. Then there would be room for 20% more work. The demand vs supply gap of 5% of workers should drive up salaries as well.
2013-01-28 06:03:01 PM
1 votes:

xynix: Why does a human have to walk up to the meter and make a change? I understand this with water or gas to an extent.. especially gas but even water could be remotely turned on and off. Waiting a week to get some dude to turn a valve so you can have running water is simply stupid.


That will create new jobs. The automatic remote mechanical shut-off valve manufacturer/salesman/installer/electrician/repairman.
2013-01-28 05:56:23 PM
1 votes:

maegen: In theory, machines might be able to do some of it someday, but it won't mean anything.


The entire point is dada was that it doesn't matter when humans do it, either.
2013-01-28 05:55:48 PM
1 votes:

nmemkha: Man On Pink Corner: nmemkha: When there is no enough work to go around the haves will have to support the have-nots or they latter will brain them and feast on the gooey results.

The have-nots probably should have thought about that before electing politicians who push gun control.

When cops and soldiers are replaced with drones the "human usable" weapons industry will die anyway.


/ftfm
2013-01-28 05:55:12 PM
1 votes:

Man On Pink Corner: nmemkha: When there is no enough work to go around the haves will have to support the have-nots or they latter will brain them and feast on the gooey results.

The have-nots probably should have thought about that before electing politicians who push gun control.


WE cops and soldiers are replaced with drones the "human usable" weapons industry will die anyway.
2013-01-28 05:54:47 PM
1 votes:
The answer is to stop the fixation on busywork.

What do we pay people for? Why do we tie benefits to X billable hours per week? What kind of world would we live in if the basics were assumed and people simply worked for beer money?

The other answer is to slap a value added tax on every product. Make something for a penny, and sell it for $100 wholesale? Make the middleman pay the taxes on that. Suddenly, this game of making everything as cheap as possible and selling for as much as possible will cease to pay off. Or at least, if industry continues to pay the game society has a tax base to produce replacement jobs in the public sector.
2013-01-28 05:51:53 PM
1 votes:

xynix: I also don't understand why they don't have remote locks that turn the meter off or on. Why does a human have to walk up to the meter and make a change? I understand this with water or gas to an extent.. especially gas but even water could be remotely turned on and off. Waiting a week to get some dude to turn a valve so you can have running water is simply stupid.


Right up until a bug in some piece of software somewhere closes off the valve without reporting an error.

As a computer scientist, I'm comforted by the knowledge that things like water and heat require a human being to walk to a home and turn off a knob.
2013-01-28 05:51:14 PM
1 votes:

ajgeek: Does anyone smarter than me have a potential solution to this problem? Obviously we can't generate work for work's sake and not everyone can fix the machines that do work for us, but we're getting to a point where we are going to have an excess of human labor. This is both real and very serious. Idle hands and all that.

/and no, sending everyone to China won't help either.


Self-correcting problem. We just need many fewer humans
2013-01-28 05:46:14 PM
1 votes:

rustypouch: ajgeek: Does anyone smarter than me have a potential solution to this problem? Obviously we can't generate work for work's sake and not everyone can fix the machines that do work for us, but we're getting to a point where we are going to have an excess of human labor. This is both real and very serious. Idle hands and all that.

/and no, sending everyone to China won't help either.

Reduce the standard work week, say to 30 or 35 hours, but keep the annual compensation the same.

More people working, more money circulating through the economy, and more free time to spend it.


this... isn't a bad idea.

The issue that I see is that if we do that, you would be essentially paying two people for the same job; doubling labor costs in very short order. Unless there was some incentive for businesses to "throw away" money like that I really don't see it happening.

/honestly though, what is the point of capitalism? What is the point of collecting so much money that you would never be able to spend it all in your lifetime?
2013-01-28 05:40:30 PM
1 votes:
Can't believe nobody's brought up creative markets. Art, music, literature, even the actual aesthetic design of things such as websites, boxes, marketing literature, etc. In theory, machines might be able to do some of it someday, but it won't mean anything. These are forms of human expression. A large part of what makes them great is the connection with another person. Of course, these are exactly the things everybody is, mindbogglingly, trying to remove all funding for in schools.
2013-01-28 05:32:40 PM
1 votes:

Ronin_S: I always think of Patton Oswalt's sketch on grocery store robots whenever I hear about this classic modern conundrum.

Also:
[2.bp.blogspot.com image 600x200]

I'm doing water treatment and environmental science. We use lots of technology to test water, soil and air, but you still need humans to go out and collect the samples, run the SCADA chemical dispensing systems and write up the reports.

You have to look for jobs that are impossible for computers to do. Anything involving creativity, reasoning, interpreting of data, or going to remote sites with no infrastructure will need people. The legal system, scientific, education, health care and beauty industries have jobs that machines could never do. Manufacturing, natural resource extraction, anything involving tracking and filing inventory and data, forget it.


Anything can be replaced by a machine. Just because the tech isn't here now, doesn't mean that it won't be here tomorrow. Humans are replaceable. Sometimes, as already mentioned above, it's not immediate, it's gradual......... but humans are still replaceable.

Everything you listed either is replaceable by a machine now, has many components which are replaced by machines now, or can replace humans in the near future.
2013-01-28 05:32:26 PM
1 votes:

vudukungfu: the world needs ditchdiggers, too.


No it doesnt.
2013-01-28 05:27:56 PM
1 votes:

ajgeek: Does anyone smarter than me have a potential solution to this problem? Obviously we can't generate work for work's sake and not everyone can fix the machines that do work for us, but we're getting to a point where we are going to have an excess of human labor. This is both real and very serious. Idle hands and all that.

/and no, sending everyone to China won't help either.


It will take a Star Trek type of society to deal with the societal shift's end result. Eventually, human work to survive will be unnecessary. Of course this requires a societal shift away from our typical capitalist understanding of life. If we can feed, house, and educate everyone, there is no need to toil daily. Life would become a pursuit of knowledge. Yet greed is essential to our system as it is now, so the end result is obvious, but how we'll get there isn't. Very Rodenberryan. This isn't even taking a probable Kurzweil type of singularity into account.
2013-01-28 05:24:49 PM
1 votes:

The Stealth Hippopotamus: Eddie Adams from Torrance: Well, we could educate our citizens better so they could compete for jobs in the new information based economy, but that's socialism.... so, no.

Actually the socialist answer would be to kill all the smart people (those they have the training and the money) and put untrained uneducated people in those places. That way in a few years everyone is in the field working the crops with their bare hands. It would be perfect. All of us equal and no one better than the other.


25.media.tumblr.com

What a Stealth HipPolPotamus may look like...
2013-01-28 05:23:01 PM
1 votes:

meat0918: Internet Meme Rogers: kindms: The only thing holding back automation in tons of industries is that its still cheaper to pay someone $8 an hour to do it.

I work for a company that sells automation, and at the bottom of each sales proposal we have a line that says "This machine works for $X an hour." It's nearly always less than you'd have to pay a person to do the same job, and not as well as the machine will do it.

Getting a kick out of TFA and this thread, since my job is taking away other people's jobs.

I do that as well. It bothers me at times.


Fortunately, I don't lose sleep over it. And amusingly, my degree is in Comparative English Literature but now I talk servo drives and g code all day.

There are still people who do things by hand. They're called artisans.
2013-01-28 05:22:55 PM
1 votes:

jst3p: BarkingUnicorn: Eddie Adams from Torrance: ajgeek: Does anyone smarter than me have a potential solution to this problem? Obviously we can't generate work for work's sake and not everyone can fix the machines that do work for us, but we're getting to a point where we are going to have an excess of human labor. This is both real and very serious. Idle hands and all that.

/and no, sending everyone to China won't help either.

Well, we could educate our citizens better so they could compete for jobs in the new information based economy, but that's socialism.... so, no.

People are not machines that can be programmed for any task.

My children are 8 and 11. The experiment is ongoing but I should have results to report in 10 years.


Sooner than that, I wager.  You're just about at the end of the Golden Years when kids will do whatever you want.  Puberty changes everything.
2013-01-28 05:21:48 PM
1 votes:

nmemkha: When there is no enough work to go around the haves will have to support the have-nots or they latter will brain them and feast on the gooey results.


when there is not enough work to go around, the have-nots will continue to look up at the haves and do everything in their power to become 'haves'. poor people don't hate on brand names, they're the most likely to lust after them because they can't usually have them. see also: libtard teeth-gnashing at broke-ass midwestern cracker republicans.

the poor adored Evita. that's reality. as long as the rich make Evita like gestures, the poor will swallow the nastiness such gestures gild.

revolutions are led not by the poor, but by the top of the food chain (which isn't always the rich, but will be someone affluent and looked up to) who feel an obligation to help the poor rise. right?
2013-01-28 05:16:50 PM
1 votes:

HighOnCraic: The upshot of the story is, that day I called my parents, my father was fired. He was technologically unemployed. My father had worked for the same firm for twelve years. They fired him. They replaced him with a tiny gadget, this big, that does everything my father does, only it does it much better. The depressing thing is, my mother ran out and bought one.


OK, I lol'ed. :-)
2013-01-28 05:16:04 PM
1 votes:
Drinkin' Again

Man...my woman done left me

Damn

I got laid off

shiat

They say a computer can do my job better then I can damn do it!

Motherfarkers

Man, pour me another drink

I feel ya

Break
kab
2013-01-28 05:14:00 PM
1 votes:

Kaiku: Is it so hard to envision a future where working for a living is no longer the norm and everyone is afforded a basic standard of living via a guaranteed minimum income?


For a lot of people, yes, this is entirely unacceptable.

/would personally dig it.
2013-01-28 05:13:32 PM
1 votes:

kindms: The only thing holding back automation in tons of industries is that its still cheaper to pay someone $8 an hour to do it.


I work for a company that sells automation, and at the bottom of each sales proposal we have a line that says "This machine works for $X an hour." It's nearly always less than you'd have to pay a person to do the same job, and not as well as the machine will do it.

Getting a kick out of TFA and this thread, since my job is taking away other people's jobs.
2013-01-28 05:11:31 PM
1 votes:

StrandedInAZ: That's funny.


Yeah, it is. It's not like they suddenly started dropping f-bombs left and right, but they (especially my dad) don't necessarily feel the need to hold back anymore. But only with me, as far as I can tell (I'm the oldest). I'm comfortable around my dad, but it still feels weird when I accidentally let one fly around my mom, and even weirder when she doesn't even blink. Especially when I got slapped the first time I dropped a 'shiat' with her (at 19!). I wasn't really even swearing at anything in particular, I just referred to the handle above the passenger door in my car as an 'oh shiat barSMACK'.

StrandedInAZ: As an Army vet (who curses like a sailor normally), it's astonishing to me that I can turn it off the instant I'm around them.


I was never in the military, but I've worked and played around a bunch of people who were (including a truly creative retired SEAL), and that still gets shut off until I have a few beers under my belt. The oldest sister hears some if I'm pissed about something (I try not to cuss around her, but I don't worry too much if I do), oldest brother hears (and says) everything, youngest brother and sister pretty much get the same treatment as my folks. I'm not worried about their sensitive little ears, but the mental block is there just the same.
2013-01-28 05:09:55 PM
1 votes:
Friend of mine used to run a billiards parlor.  It wasn't doing well so he sold it to some sucker.  He "retrained" for a job in the natural gas industry.

The job:  driving a company truck from one well to another; checking gauges and monitoring systems.  If something  was out of whack, he didn't fix it; he just reported it and drove on to the next well.  He went home every night.

$90,000 a year.
2013-01-28 05:07:25 PM
1 votes:
It's really simple. If your job involves sitting or standing in one place doing the same thing over and over again you're going to be replaced by a machine. If your only interaction with the product of your employer is visual then you're going to be replaced by a machine. If you don't understand why said machines are going to replace you then you're dumber than said machine. If you think somebody should take care of you after a machine replaces you then you deserve to be fuel for that machine.

You either evolve or face extinction.
2013-01-28 05:05:43 PM
1 votes:
When there is no enough work to go around the haves will have to support the have-nots or they latter will brain them and feast on the gooey results.
2013-01-28 05:04:41 PM
1 votes:

kindms: Cyno01: Another Government Employee: azmoviez: cman: Is losing a job to a machine really such a bad thing? I really dont understand why people are pissed off of technological progress.

If you had made a career out of being a travel agent, I could imagine you'd be pissed that your livelihood is gone in a matter of just a few years. There's really not much of a grace period when technology just overwhelms the industry that you work.  Ask Borders.

I see the change happening with major grocery and retail workers right now in a big hurry.

It would have happened already if customer acceptance had been better. The software is out there.

Automatic checkouts as they are SUUUUUUUCK. For whatever reason the UI is crap compared to what actual cashiers have. BUT, its a stepping stone. Give it a few years for the RFID tag to replace the UPC and stores wont even HAVE checkouts anymore, youll just bag up your shiat at the front of the store and walk out, everything in your cart automatically being totaled up and charged to your card. Sure you still need stockboys and a few people on the floor, but thats hundreds of thousands of entry level no skill cashiering jobs that will just be GONE.

The only thing holding back automation in tons of industries is that its still cheaper to pay someone $8 an hour to do it. But automation will always get cheaper, and the benefits of being able to work 24/7 without a break, or needing health care, or even training make it a very attractive option.

They already do this. You can grab a scan gun when you walk in to the grocery store and scan as you put stuff in your cart. We don't have it in NY where I am but my mom in CT does. She says they get audited (in store check cart vs. receipt) every so often.


That would be nice, but I can see that ending VERY badly for the grocery stores in Alabama. Hell, The Wal-Marts here had to shut down self-checkout, guess why..
2013-01-28 05:02:34 PM
1 votes:

spentmiles: wagging pink licker


Good band name
2013-01-28 04:59:18 PM
1 votes:

Noticeably F.A.T.: StrandedInAZ: Hell, I still don't swear when I'm around my folks, and I'm 40!

I do every now and again (generally when I've been drinking), but that only started when they started cussing around me. I'm pretty sure I'm the only kid out of five that they do that with.


That's funny. I was 30 or so the first, and only, time, I've heard my mother swear. She was telling a story in which one of her coworkers had sworn at a customer, and she actually used the word. It was really mild, like damn, or something like that. But I was stunned. To this day, I've never heard my father swear. Parents who don't swear are really funny, though. My dad would say things like "cussy darny" and "dagnammit" and "cheese and crackers."

As an Army vet (who curses like a sailor normally), it's astonishing to me that I can turn it off the instant I'm around them.
2013-01-28 04:59:18 PM
1 votes:

ajgeek: Does anyone smarter than me have a potential solution to this problem?


Simple -- you retrain people for other work when their job is (being) eliminated. This is one of the reasons why a broad education base is so critical to an economy: People with a reasonable breadth of knowledge are far more "cross-industry mobile". Yes the training does cost taxpayer money, as does every investment in a nation, but it brings a nice ROI. Everyone pays everyone benefits.

/at least that's what to do if we want to maintain a vibrant economy
2013-01-28 04:57:33 PM
1 votes:

kindms: ajgeek: Does anyone smarter than me have a potential solution to this problem? Obviously we can't generate work for work's sake and not everyone can fix the machines that do work for us, but we're getting to a point where we are going to have an excess of human labor. This is both real and very serious. Idle hands and all that.

/and no, sending everyone to China won't help either.

The same solution that always fixes this problem. WAR

Basically there will have to be a really big war that kills millions of people or a virus. It makes me wonder if we should start causing trouble between India and China. Probably the quickest and most efficient way to remove 100s of millions of humans from the work force, reduce over population etc etc

both are nuclear armed. They just need a reason to help the rest of us out.


The problem with trying to start shiat between other people is the fallout has a habit of blowing back on you, too.

I wouldn't kill off the usual suspects. I would not kill off emerging economies. I'd kill off the most educated. I'd crush the power of the Old Guard. I'd put my money on the New Players, who are going to need guidance and will be more malleable. I'd create a new power in the vacuum.

I'd find someone who doesn't have a dog in any fight, and put my money on them -- a la America of the 20th century.

Sooooo... Argentina for the win? (yeah, yeah, Argentina is old school, but they're not a superpower. for now. and they're in the southern hemisphere. win win.)

(it's too bad the Motherland is forever fked by colonialism. having an Africa independent of Euro-American-Chinese-MiddleEastern interference would be a revelation and a half.)
2013-01-28 04:56:12 PM
1 votes:
I tried posting this link earlier, but was rejected (I guess). Revelant to this topic.

Link
2013-01-28 04:54:45 PM
1 votes:

Cyno01: Another Government Employee: azmoviez: cman: Is losing a job to a machine really such a bad thing? I really dont understand why people are pissed off of technological progress.

If you had made a career out of being a travel agent, I could imagine you'd be pissed that your livelihood is gone in a matter of just a few years. There's really not much of a grace period when technology just overwhelms the industry that you work.  Ask Borders.

I see the change happening with major grocery and retail workers right now in a big hurry.

It would have happened already if customer acceptance had been better. The software is out there.

Automatic checkouts as they are SUUUUUUUCK. For whatever reason the UI is crap compared to what actual cashiers have. BUT, its a stepping stone. Give it a few years for the RFID tag to replace the UPC and stores wont even HAVE checkouts anymore, youll just bag up your shiat at the front of the store and walk out, everything in your cart automatically being totaled up and charged to your card. Sure you still need stockboys and a few people on the floor, but thats hundreds of thousands of entry level no skill cashiering jobs that will just be GONE.

The only thing holding back automation in tons of industries is that its still cheaper to pay someone $8 an hour to do it. But automation will always get cheaper, and the benefits of being able to work 24/7 without a break, or needing health care, or even training make it a very attractive option.


They already do this. You can grab a scan gun when you walk in to the grocery store and scan as you put stuff in your cart. We don't have it in NY where I am but my mom in CT does. She says they get audited (in store check cart vs. receipt) every so often.
kab
2013-01-28 04:53:39 PM
1 votes:

oh_please: There's plenty of "busy work" to be done in this country. Repairing our infrastructure, cleaning up our cities, etc...the problem is that we, as a society, call it "busy work", and nobody wants to do it, and everyone looks down on that kind of thing. Bullshiat. What we need is a culture change to make this kind of work honorable again, because it is, indeed, honorable.


Infrastructure repair is an ongoing process that is also greatly impacted by technology. As far as cleaning, few *want* to do it because it typically doesn't pay well enough. So we're back to square 1.
2013-01-28 04:53:39 PM
1 votes:

StrandedInAZ: Hell, I still don't swear when I'm around my folks, and I'm 40!


I do every now and again (generally when I've been drinking), but that only started when they started cussing around me. I'm pretty sure I'm the only kid out of five that they do that with.
2013-01-28 04:50:16 PM
1 votes:

xynix: I spanked my son until it hurt my hand more than his ass which was at about age 9 1/2. Now I just threaten to take away his iPhone (which he earned by the way) and he does what I ask. He has a 4.0 GPA and if that slips at all he loses the phone. It's really not that hard to discipline a child these days it's just a different technique. Grounding a kid has become mobile or electronics based.

There aren't many jobs a 12 year old can get paid for these days so he earns money by doing chores.. Lawn work, etc. I don't buy things on credit either and my son knows this and I explain almost every time I make a transaction that cash (debit card) is how we buy things. If you can't pay cash you do not buy it with the exception of major purchases and then those are only to be within your means.

The major difference between my youth and his is that I grew up so poor my mother washed our clothes in the bathtub with generic bar soap and a washing board. No I'm not 80.. I'm 39. I'm pretty well off though and it's hard to make him realize that we don't always get what we want which is why I randomly tell him I'm broke when he asks for something. It could be as little as a bag of skittles or something and I'll say I have no money until I get paid on X day.. Etc. Creating an illusion of poverty even though we live in a mcmansion.


It sounds like you're the exception to what I've seen. None of my friends who have kids spank their kids. None of them. And, believe me, you can tell. Most of them say they would, but they're so afraid of their kid going to school and reporting them or calling CPS on them or something.

My girlfriend's daughter dropped an f-bomb on her recently. When my girlfriend told me what happened (we were on the phone), I asked my girlfriend if her daughter still had all her teeth. My mom would have KILLED me for that. Hell, I still don't swear when I'm around my folks, and I'm 40!
2013-01-28 04:49:31 PM
1 votes:

cman: Is losing a job to a machine really such a bad thing?


Gosh, I don't know, Einstein, is cancer really such a bad thing? Are you this obtuse IRL, too?
2013-01-28 04:47:09 PM
1 votes:

jaybeezey: This is why developing a genuine skill set is important. Unfortunately, no one developed a machine that can replace middle managament yet.


I do tech support. I used to do upholstery, and I was a baker and a chef, and a fielder in a textile mill, and also been a lot of other things. If you want to live, get a hobby. If you want to survive, learn to adapt.

If you banked your soul on being one thing only and can't do that now, well, the world needs ditchdiggers, too.
2013-01-28 04:45:47 PM
1 votes:

StrandedInAZ: You can't just bury your head in the sand and pretend progress isn't happening.


I disagree with you.

www.fireandreamitchell.com
2013-01-28 04:43:09 PM
1 votes:

ajgeek: Does anyone smarter than me have a potential solution to this problem? Obviously we can't generate work for work's sake and not everyone can fix the machines that do work for us, but we're getting to a point where we are going to have an excess of human labor. This is both real and very serious. Idle hands and all that.

/and no, sending everyone to China won't help either.


you kill off the population us off via disease and war.

------

Eddie Adams from Torrance: ajgeek: Does anyone smarter than me have a potential solution to this problem? Obviously we can't generate work for work's sake and not everyone can fix the machines that do work for us, but we're getting to a point where we are going to have an excess of human labor. This is both real and very serious. Idle hands and all that.

/and no, sending everyone to China won't help either.

Well, we could educate our citizens better so they could compete for jobs in the new information based economy, but that's socialism.... so, no.


First world citizens will not be able to compete for jobs in the new information based economy, when third worlders can do the exact same thing for much cheaper. So you'll have First world citizens who are 'overqualified' (they'll need to be paid more) for the manual labor of third worlders, and who will need to be paid more for the sit on your ass jobs which can be exported to the Third World for cheaper.

Economies will flip, yes?

The answer is war and death.

finalapocalipse.files.wordpress.com

And imprisonment.

/most of these discussions are just about keeping the status quo for the First World, anyway, right?
2013-01-28 04:42:45 PM
1 votes:

Eddie Adams from Torrance: ajgeek: Does anyone smarter than me have a potential solution to this problem? Obviously we can't generate work for work's sake and not everyone can fix the machines that do work for us, but we're getting to a point where we are going to have an excess of human labor. This is both real and very serious. Idle hands and all that.

/and no, sending everyone to China won't help either.

Well, we could educate our citizens better so they could compete for jobs in the new information based economy, but that's socialism.... so, no.


People are not machines that can be programmed for any task.
2013-01-28 04:41:19 PM
1 votes:
Meter readers make $67,000.00?!?!?

I need a new job.
2013-01-28 04:40:27 PM
1 votes:

azmoviez: If you had made a career out of being a travel agent, I could imagine you'd be pissed that your livelihood is gone in a matter of just a few years. There's really not much of a grace period when technology just overwhelms the industry that you work.  Ask Borders.


What most travel agents were doing was just typing into a computer exactly what I told them. And taking 30% for the privilege. It was shiat and I'm glad they got replaced with us doing it through a browser.

But... there's still a travel agency in my town, but the difference is that they were the agency that did certain specialisations. If you want to do a ride on a special train journey or a cruise, they'll put the whole thing together for you.
2013-01-28 04:39:35 PM
1 votes:

J.Shelby: Polyhazard: Automation and outsourcing are part of the reason I get a kick when someone snarky comment about my Liberal Arts degree.

Did that "Liberal Arts degree" include sentence structure, parts of speech, proof-reading, or grammar?


Robots ate my verb.
2013-01-28 04:37:17 PM
1 votes:

cman: Is losing a job to a machine really such a bad thing?

I really dont understand why people are pissed off of technological progress.


Yes, most people would upset about losing a job, most of the time it doesn't matter what the cause.
2013-01-28 04:36:04 PM
1 votes:
It's called symbiosis folks! We just leave all the heavy thinking and decision making to the robs and keep the electron furnaces filled. We receive Crossainwiches in return... very fair.
kab
2013-01-28 04:35:32 PM
1 votes:

jonnypeh: So those unemployed people have to find other things to do.


Only because society is stuck in the mindset of everyone 'earning their keep'. But eventually, this is simply going to be an impossibility, if it isn't already.

We have a situation where the population continues to rise, life expectancies rise, employed folks stay working longer, and industries get by with fewer employees thanks to automation, and tech. Outside of some giant natural disaster, war, or epidemic, none of these trends are going to change anytime soon.

The solutions?

1) accept the fact that our society can absorb and uphold a growing number of unemployed people
2) create busy work for unemployed people

Take your pick.
2013-01-28 04:30:37 PM
1 votes:

meat0918: The day software can be efficiently designed, implemented, and tested without human intervention is the day machines no longer need people.


I hear they made a few movies along those lines.
2013-01-28 04:28:38 PM
1 votes:

The Stealth Hippopotamus: Actually the socialist answer would be to kill all the smart people (those they have the training and the money) and put untrained uneducated people in those places. That way in a few years everyone is in the field working the crops with their bare hands. It would be perfect. All of us equal and no one better than the other.


i.qkme.me
2013-01-28 04:28:24 PM
1 votes:

The My Little Pony Killer: ajgeek: Does anyone smarter than me have a potential solution to this problem? Obviously we can't generate work for work's sake and not everyone can fix the machines that do work for us, but we're getting to a point where we are going to have an excess of human labor. This is both real and very serious. Idle hands and all that.

/and no, sending everyone to China won't help either.

Get used to asking if your customers want fries with that.


That will be automated, too.
2013-01-28 04:26:22 PM
1 votes:
Didn't this happen to Charlie's father in "Charlie and the Chocalte Factory"?

He did okay after a machine replaced him. He simply took a job repairing the machines that took his job.
2013-01-28 04:26:21 PM
1 votes:
The guy is 66, he should of retired and let someone else have the cake job. I am actually surprised they still have traditional meter readers. Around here they drive by in a van with a few antennas on the roof and read the whole neighborhood in like 5 minutes. In a few years i expect the meter to beam the data back to the mother-ship power company servers in real time.
2013-01-28 04:25:25 PM
1 votes:

ph0rk: ajgeek: but we're getting to a point where we are going to have an excess of human labor.

Yep, I've been saying that for over a decade - it is rather obvious. No one want to think about it, though - the usual retort is that we'll "innovate" something else to do - because manual laborers are typically so good at market innovation.


I'd like to think relocalization of farming, but they are really trying hard to remove the human labor from the equation, without thought to "Who will buy our food if no one has a job?".
2013-01-28 04:25:14 PM
1 votes:
Did the Obvious tag get replaced by technology?
2013-01-28 04:24:30 PM
1 votes:
Eddie Adams from Torrance [TotalFark]

Well, we could educate our citizens better so they could compete for jobs in the new information based economy, but that's socialism.... so, no.
Nice hyperbole, but it's not the "Right" that is in control of public schooling. It is the "Right" that ridicules the leftist continually lowering standards.

Your idiotic talking points only work on the ill informed... or democrats if you prefer.
2013-01-28 04:22:33 PM
1 votes:

ajgeek: but we're getting to a point where we are going to have an excess of human labor.


Yep, I've been saying that for over a decade - it is rather obvious. No one want to think about it, though - the usual retort is that we'll "innovate" something else to do - because manual laborers are typically so good at market innovation.
2013-01-28 04:22:22 PM
1 votes:

meat0918: Oh, and I HATE the idea of robots getting my books. I find a lot of interesting reads (and a few stinkers of course), just browsing the aisles.

Yeah, I know, I can browse a virtual bookshelf with search capabilities more efficiently, but damn it, maybe I like my library meandering time!


This.
Serendipitous discoveries are part of the joy of strolling around libraries and bookstores.
2013-01-28 04:21:17 PM
1 votes:

ajgeek: Does anyone smarter than me have a potential solution to this problem? Obviously we can't generate work for work's sake and not everyone can fix the machines that do work for us, but we're getting to a point where we are going to have an excess of human labor. This is both real and very serious. Idle hands and all that.

/and no, sending everyone to China won't help either.


Get used to asking if your customers want fries with that.
2013-01-28 04:20:07 PM
1 votes:
I remember seeing an article about an automated library somewhere in Asia where patrons could check out their own books via machine.

I have to say that I haven't been to the public library in months because I check out eBooks and eAudiobooks from their website. I used to go to the library once a week. It makes me wonder about the future of librarianship a little. I know people will always need help with the databases and reference questions but I wonder about circulation.
2013-01-28 04:18:58 PM
1 votes:

Dow Jones and the Temple of Doom: What's really going to be fun is when the "safe" jobs start to be lost to automation: engineers, IT admins, programmers, etc...

That's when the real butthurt will begin.


The day software can be efficiently designed, implemented, and tested without human intervention is the day machines no longer need people. And we've already got automated testing suites as it is.
2013-01-28 04:15:23 PM
1 votes:
Oh, and I HATE the idea of robots getting my books. I find a lot of interesting reads (and a few stinkers of course), just browsing the aisles.

Yeah, I know, I can browse a virtual bookshelf with search capabilities more efficiently, but damn it, maybe I like my library meandering time!
2013-01-28 04:14:37 PM
1 votes:
Who's crazy now, you sneering bastards? Is it me, with scissors taped to my hands, crawling around my lawn, clip-clip-clipping as I sound my mighty rumbling roar? Or is it you, sitting on your couch boo-hooing about your new found poverty while some fancy machine is down at your old place in the factory, cutting the assholes out of the sheep without rest nor drink? Kind of makes you wish you'd followed my advice and developed a machine skill for the new economy, doesn't it? Well, for the right price, I can teach you how to survive. Just kidding! You're doomed!

How about this: Practice your bear crawl with your ass up and head down, tongue pressed against the floor. Then you can run your wagging pink licker up and down the aisles of the empty Kroger in the middle of the night. All so I'll have a nice, clean place to walk while spending my New Economy riches! And maybe if you do an extra good job, really lick the spilled filth out from between the cracks, you'll get a nice pat on the head from the metal hand of your automated manager. Need the afternoon off to have your sores looked at? Go suck the WD-40 out of his cock!

Suck it dry human!
2013-01-28 04:10:30 PM
1 votes:
Thinking about the jobless future makes me feel a little less regret for never having kids.

Yessir, things don't look good for our species.
2013-01-28 04:10:18 PM
1 votes:

azmoviez: cman: Is losing a job to a machine really such a bad thing? I really dont understand why people are pissed off of technological progress.

If you had made a career out of being a travel agent, I could imagine you'd be pissed that your livelihood is gone in a matter of just a few years. There's really not much of a grace period when technology just overwhelms the industry that you work.  Ask Borders.

I see the change happening with major grocery and retail workers right now in a big hurry.


I used to be a typesetter.
2013-01-28 04:07:19 PM
1 votes:

cman: Is losing a job to a machine really such a bad thing?

I really dont understand why people are pissed off of technological progress.


It's only a bad thing if you're the one who ends up homeless as a result.
2013-01-28 04:05:02 PM
1 votes:
Contrary to our negative view of luddites: efficiency and automation do cost jobs.
2013-01-28 03:46:49 PM
1 votes:
Is losing a job to a machine really such a bad thing?

I really dont understand why people are pissed off of technological progress.
2013-01-28 03:41:21 PM
1 votes:

Eddie Adams from Torrance: ajgeek: Does anyone smarter than me have a potential solution to this problem? Obviously we can't generate work for work's sake and not everyone can fix the machines that do work for us, but we're getting to a point where we are going to have an excess of human labor. This is both real and very serious. Idle hands and all that.

/and no, sending everyone to China won't help either.

Well, we could educate our citizens better so they could compete for jobs in the new information based economy, but that's socialism.... so, no.


We could just kick out all the people biatching about their jobs being stolen, who refuse to adapt.
2013-01-28 02:40:15 PM
1 votes:
Does anyone smarter than me have a potential solution to this problem? Obviously we can't generate work for work's sake and not everyone can fix the machines that do work for us, but we're getting to a point where we are going to have an excess of human labor. This is both real and very serious. Idle hands and all that.

/and no, sending everyone to China won't help either.
 
Displayed 173 of 173 comments

View Voting Results: Smartest and Funniest

This thread is closed to new comments.

Continue Farking
Submit a Link »






Report