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(Fox News)   Women: can't keep them from using an AR-15 to protect themselves; can't let them use a M-16 to protect the country. Am I right, or am I right fellas?   ( nation.foxnews.com) divider line
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2294 clicks; posted to Politics » on 28 Jan 2013 at 11:31 AM (4 years ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-01-28 10:11:48 AM  
Ladies, get a shotgun.
 
2013-01-28 10:15:30 AM  
On his show Thursday, Morgan got a much-needed education on the subject from 22-year-old Celia Bigelow who explained, "I want a gun that can hold a lot of ammo because if I'm faced with an intruder or multiple intruders that come into my home, I want to make sure I have enough ammo to get the job done, especially if they're armed"

I'm generally anti-gun control, but if you really believe this, you should be banned from owning anything more powerful than a taser without a 40-hour remedial gun education course.

These people do realize that bullets don't disappear if they don't hit their target, right? Even a hollow point can punch through a few inches of wood or drywall easily, and if your only philosophy for self-defense is spray and pray you're much, much more likely to hurt or kill the very people you're trying to protect than the people invading your home.

These women and every other gun nut who shares their sentiments are living in a fantasy world.
 
2013-01-28 10:31:21 AM  

Bloody William: On his show Thursday, Morgan got a much-needed education on the subject from 22-year-old Celia Bigelow who explained, "I want a gun that can hold a lot of ammo because if I'm faced with an intruder or multiple intruders that come into my home, I want to make sure I have enough ammo to get the job done, especially if they're armed"

I'm generally anti-gun control, but if you really believe this, you should be banned from owning anything more powerful than a taser without a 40-hour remedial gun education course.

These people do realize that bullets don't disappear if they don't hit their target, right? Even a hollow point can punch through a few inches of wood or drywall easily, and if your only philosophy for self-defense is spray and pray you're much, much more likely to hurt or kill the very people you're trying to protect than the people invading your home.



www.tvgoodness.com

Also a fan of spray-n-pray.
 
2013-01-28 10:41:52 AM  

SurfaceTension: Ladies, get a shotgun.


Done in one. If you are such a bad shot that you need a ton of AR-15 ammo to hit someone not all that far away, please don't try.
 
2013-01-28 10:49:44 AM  

Bloody William: On his show Thursday, Morgan got a much-needed education on the subject from 22-year-old Celia Bigelow who explained, "I want a gun that can hold a lot of ammo because if I'm faced with an intruder or multiple intruders that come into my home, I want to make sure I have enough ammo to get the job done, especially if they're armed"

I'm generally anti-gun control, but if you really believe this, you should be banned from owning anything more powerful than a taser without a 40-hour remedial gun education course.

These people do realize that bullets don't disappear if they don't hit their target, right? Even a hollow point can punch through a few inches of wood or drywall easily, and if your only philosophy for self-defense is spray and pray you're much, much more likely to hurt or kill the very people you're trying to protect than the people invading your home.

These women and every other gun nut who shares their sentiments are living in a fantasy world.


Actually, pretty much anything you could possibly reasonably use for self-defense carries a danger of over-penetration.

For example, the much touted 12 gauge shotgun using 00 buckshot will penetrate at least 7 thicknesses of sheetrock. A slug from that shotgun will penetrate at least 12 thicknesses.

Frangible .223 ammunition, like that one might use for home defense, has about the same penetration capacity as the buckshot (8 layers of sheetrock)

It's even a tad less than some .357 Magnum rounds out of a revolver.

But what about the ubiquitous 9mm Parabellum? Penetrates about 8 layers.

What you have to worry about are the people who use their deer rifle or their slug gun for home defense. An AR-15 (with the appropriate expanding or frangible ammo) is actually not that bad a choice, but I'll leave you with this quote from the Box O' Truth website:

Sheetrock (drywall) doesn't slow any round down much. If you shoot in the house, walls will not stop any serious round.

(emphasis mine)
 
2013-01-28 10:56:44 AM  

ThatGuyGreg: SurfaceTension: Ladies, get a shotgun.

Done in one. If you are such a bad shot that you need a ton of AR-15 ammo to hit someone not all that far away, please don't try.


A shotgun with slugs or large buckshot is just as likely to overpenetrate as a .223 Remington. Another quote from the "Box O' Truth":

But doesn't 00 Buck penetrate too much in interior walls to be a "safe" load in a home?
Yes, it does penetrate a lot. But any load that is going to be effective will need to penetrate walls to have enough power to penetrate bad guys. If our only concern was to be sure we didn't penetrate walls, we would use BB guns. However, BB guns will not stop bad guys.

Therefore, we must use loads that will STOP bad guys, and this means that they will also penetrate walls. So, be sure you hit the bad guy and do not shoot into walls where loved ones are on the other side.
 
2013-01-28 11:10:44 AM  
"I want a gun that can hold a lot of ammo because if I'm faced with an intruder or multiple intruders that come into my home, I want to make sure I have enough ammo to get the job done

Just what the fark are you girls doing at that gun range, anyway?
 
2013-01-28 11:21:18 AM  

tallguywithglasseson: "I want a gun that can hold a lot of ammo because if I'm faced with an intruder or multiple intruders that come into my home, I want to make sure I have enough ammo to get the job done

Just what the fark are you girls doing at that gun range, anyway?


Oh, that's not sexist. Not one bit.
 
2013-01-28 11:25:15 AM  

dittybopper: tallguywithglasseson: "I want a gun that can hold a lot of ammo because if I'm faced with an intruder or multiple intruders that come into my home, I want to make sure I have enough ammo to get the job done

Just what the fark are you girls doing at that gun range, anyway?

Oh, that's not sexist. Not one bit.


I think he meant "What the fark are you girls doing at that gun range, anyway?" not "What the fark are you girls doing at that gun range, anyway?"

The implication being that if they're spending time at a gun range and still need "enough ammo to get the job done" (one is ideal, a few is understandable, 30 is you being farking blind and accidentally shooting your neighbors), they're shiatty gun users and aren't benefiting from shooting, not that they shouldn't be there because of being girls.

I think.
 
2013-01-28 11:33:59 AM  

Bloody William: dittybopper: tallguywithglasseson: "I want a gun that can hold a lot of ammo because if I'm faced with an intruder or multiple intruders that come into my home, I want to make sure I have enough ammo to get the job done

Just what the fark are you girls doing at that gun range, anyway?

Oh, that's not sexist. Not one bit.

I think he meant "What the fark are you girls doing at that gun range, anyway?" not "What the fark are you girls doing at that gun range, anyway?"

The implication being that if they're spending time at a gun range and still need "enough ammo to get the job done" (one is ideal, a few is understandable, 30 is you being farking blind and accidentally shooting your neighbors), they're shiatty gun users and aren't benefiting from shooting, not that they shouldn't be there because of being girls.

I think.


Yeah, thought it was obvious, but it's nice to see he's suddenly touchy and concerned about sexism and political correctness.
 
2013-01-28 11:34:38 AM  

dittybopper: tallguywithglasseson: "I want a gun that can hold a lot of ammo because if I'm faced with an intruder or multiple intruders that come into my home, I want to make sure I have enough ammo to get the job done

Just what the fark are you girls doing at that gun range, anyway?

Oh, that's not sexist. Not one bit.


Suggesting that someone who thinks they going to miss with the first 29 rounds they fire needs to spend more time on the range isn't sexist.

Pointing out that this, one of the parts of an M-16/AR-15:
e-sarcoinc.com
was NOT labeled by my drill instructors by its official designation, a 'buffer', is.
 
2013-01-28 11:34:48 AM  
Did subby make an oblique reference to a scene from "Cheers," there?

/pass the beer nuts
 
2013-01-28 11:34:59 AM  

Bloody William: dittybopper: tallguywithglasseson: "I want a gun that can hold a lot of ammo because if I'm faced with an intruder or multiple intruders that come into my home, I want to make sure I have enough ammo to get the job done

Just what the fark are you girls doing at that gun range, anyway?

Oh, that's not sexist. Not one bit.

I think he meant "What the fark are you girls doing at that gun range, anyway?" not "What the fark are you girls doing at that gun range, anyway?"

The implication being that if they're spending time at a gun range and still need "enough ammo to get the job done" (one is ideal, a few is understandable, 30 is you being farking blind and accidentally shooting your neighbors), they're shiatty gun users and aren't benefiting from shooting, not that they shouldn't be there because of being girls.

I think.


To provide fair consideration: my AR-15 is currently configured to fire .22LR ammunition, thus I may legitimately require a 50-round drum magazine in order to neutralize a single threat even with accurate fire.
 
2013-01-28 11:35:51 AM  
www.supplementinnercircle.com
 
2013-01-28 11:36:58 AM  
Why can't I have a bazooka for home defense? I mean, if I want to be really sure I stop the bad guys.

Bad guys.

Say bad guys.

Bad guys bad guys bad guys.

Sounds weird.

Bad guys.
 
2013-01-28 11:38:12 AM  
I support anything that gets more hot, retarded chicks on TV.
 
2013-01-28 11:38:36 AM  
Give the girls tasers.
It's safer that way.
 
2013-01-28 11:38:42 AM  

Bloody William: you're much, much more likely to hurt or kill the very people you're trying to protect than the people invading your home.


You could have just left off the rest of it. This is true by itself, simply by virtue of owning a firearm.
 
2013-01-28 11:38:46 AM  

Dimensio: To provide fair consideration: my AR-15 is currently configured to fire .22LR ammunition, thus I may legitimately require a 50-round drum magazine in order to neutralize a single threat even with accurate fire.


Did you mean to say "fair" or "ridiculous"?
 
2013-01-28 11:40:05 AM  

dittybopper: tallguywithglasseson: "I want a gun that can hold a lot of ammo because if I'm faced with an intruder or multiple intruders that come into my home, I want to make sure I have enough ammo to get the job done

Just what the fark are you girls doing at that gun range, anyway?

Oh, that's not sexist. Not one bit.


I think he means they aren't practicing their marksmenship if they need 30 rounds to do the job.
 
2013-01-28 11:41:37 AM  
You know, I keep forgetting that I live in a civilized part of the world, and that I probably want a gun too if I lived in a miserable shiathole like Texas.
 
2013-01-28 11:42:25 AM  
When I graduated high school is when my family bought a gun. We bought it because I had an ex-boyfriend who was slightly insane and owned a gun. He had shown up once to our house, unannounced. Fortunately, I was not at home. One might say Jesus saved me that day; I had gone to church directly from work. :)

Anyway... while I was not able to fire the gun, I was shown how it worked and how to hold it. I was also taught that if I ever had to use it, then I had better fire it. I had better fire it at the torso area, the largest part of the body, and I had better hit the first time. Because that was all I was going to get. I might, MIGHT, get two shots, if I was lucky and quick. But then, the perp would be on me, the gun would be in his hands, and likely at my head or chest the next moment.

So the idea that anyone needs 10 rounds to take out a perp or would even get the chance to fire them off is just strange to me.

btw, we bought a six-shot revolver. Don't remember the brand/make, but it was pretty. We also bought bullets that would fragment on impact, so they'd fark up a body, but not be likely to go through a wall.
 
2013-01-28 11:45:07 AM  

dittybopper: Bloody William: On his show Thursday, Morgan got a much-needed education on the subject from 22-year-old Celia Bigelow who explained, "I want a gun that can hold a lot of ammo because if I'm faced with an intruder or multiple intruders that come into my home, I want to make sure I have enough ammo to get the job done, especially if they're armed"

I'm generally anti-gun control, but if you really believe this, you should be banned from owning anything more powerful than a taser without a 40-hour remedial gun education course.

These people do realize that bullets don't disappear if they don't hit their target, right? Even a hollow point can punch through a few inches of wood or drywall easily, and if your only philosophy for self-defense is spray and pray you're much, much more likely to hurt or kill the very people you're trying to protect than the people invading your home.

These women and every other gun nut who shares their sentiments are living in a fantasy world.

Actually, pretty much anything you could possibly reasonably use for self-defense carries a danger of over-penetration.

For example, the much touted 12 gauge shotgun using 00 buckshot will penetrate at least 7 thicknesses of sheetrock. A slug from that shotgun will penetrate at least 12 thicknesses.

Frangible .223 ammunition, like that one might use for home defense, has about the same penetration capacity as the buckshot (8 layers of sheetrock)

It's even a tad less than some .357 Magnum rounds out of a revolver.

But what about the ubiquitous 9mm Parabellum? Penetrates about 8 layers.

What you have to worry about are the people who use their deer rifle or their slug gun for home defense. An AR-15 (with the appropriate expanding or frangible ammo) is actually not that bad a choice, but I'll leave you with this quote from the Box O' Truth website:

Sheetrock (drywall) doesn't slow any round down much. If you shoot in the house, walls will not stop any serious round.

(emphasis mine)


Buckshot range - 100 yds
.223 - 400 yds

There is a difference between penetrating a wall right at the muzzle and penetrating the wall across the street.
 
2013-01-28 11:48:02 AM  

shamanwest:

btw, we bought a six-shot revolver. Don't remember the brand/make, but it was pretty. We also bought bullets that would fragment on impact, so they'd fark up a body, but not be likely to go through a wall.


That way when you or your spouse shoot yourselves or each other or your kids shoot each other, nobody else will get hurt.
Good thinking.
 
2013-01-28 11:48:19 AM  

SurfaceTension: Ladies, get a shotgun.


I'm not a gun person, but if I were to buy something for home defense, it seems like an AR-15 is like trying to prune a rose bush with a chain saw. Do these people not understand the concept of using the right tool for the job?
 
2013-01-28 11:49:37 AM  
What is this "I need 30-round mags for multiple intruders" crap? Are they fighting off a robbery or an invasion of the Mongols?
 
2013-01-28 11:49:43 AM  

Kibbler: Bad guys.

Say bad guys.

Bad guys bad guys bad guys.

Sounds weird.

Bad guys.


It's called semantic satiation! Link

/science!
//every home should have armed teachers
 
2013-01-28 11:49:50 AM  
New Fark Tag specially for this headline: STRAW MAN
 
2013-01-28 11:50:13 AM  

shamanwest: Anyway... while I was not able to fire the gun, I was shown how it worked and how to hold it.


Wait, what? You/your family bought a gun for self-defense and the extent of your training with it was, "Yeah, here's the bang switch, try not to miss, and if you can hit a body part they actually need, that would be ideal."

Seriously?
 
2013-01-28 11:51:19 AM  

Kibbler: Why can't I have a bazooka for home defense? I mean, if I want to be really sure I stop the bad guys.

Bad guys.

Say bad guys.

Bad guys bad guys bad guys.

Sounds weird.

Bad guys.


I prefer "Evil-Doers"
 
2013-01-28 11:52:47 AM  
Hey, a gun thread.
 
2013-01-28 11:54:17 AM  

ThatGuyGreg: SurfaceTension: Ladies, get a shotgun.

Done in one. If you are such a bad shot that you need a ton of AR-15 ammo to hit someone not all that far away, please don't try.


So if you're a bad shot you should use a gun that's less accurate and has a higher recoil instead of one of the most accurate rifles commonly available that's affordable and has marginal recoil?

That doesn't make sense.
 
2013-01-28 11:57:33 AM  

Wayne 985: What is this "I need 30-round mags for multiple intruders" crap? Are they fighting off a robbery or an invasion of the Mongols?



Society can break down....look at the L.A. Riots and New Orleans right after Katrina.

/Own an AR.
//And no, it's not my "go-to" firearm for home defense.
 
2013-01-28 11:58:11 AM  

China White Tea: shamanwest: Anyway... while I was not able to fire the gun, I was shown how it worked and how to hold it.

Wait, what? You/your family bought a gun for self-defense and the extent of your training with it was, "Yeah, here's the bang switch, try not to miss, and if you can hit a body part they actually need, that would be ideal."

Seriously?


Short of intensive training sessions, or being placed into that situation as a training exercise, what else is there?

That's all the "training" I've ever had as well, outside of range time and helpful pointers from people who know. Like my brother, who critiqued my "elbow out" stance when holding an AR-15 - apparently, you want to present a smaller profile to the enemy when you're standing up.

// things you don't think about when firing at water-filled bottles
 
2013-01-28 11:59:23 AM  

SurfaceTension: Ladies, get a shotgun.


Apparently you missed the part where they pointed out that the AR-15 is lighter and more accurate than a shotgun.

Indoors, the AR can be shot from the hip because the recoil isn't high. As for a 12 gauge if either of those women tried to shoot one from the hip they'd break their wrists. I would say that makes the AR a much better option for those women than a shotgun.
 
2013-01-28 12:01:26 PM  

Mr. Eugenides: SurfaceTension: Ladies, get a shotgun.

Apparently you missed the part where they pointed out that the AR-15 is lighter and more accurate than a shotgun.

Indoors, the AR can be shot from the hip because the recoil isn't high. As for a 12 gauge if either of those women tried to shoot one from the hip they'd break their wrists. I would say that makes the AR a much better option for those women than a shotgun.



CSB:

When my ex and I were still together, the recoil from my Stoeger Coach Gun gave her a nice bruise.  (When she shot off one round.)

/It bruised me as well.
//But only when I pulled both triggers at the same time.
 
2013-01-28 12:01:51 PM  

Dr Dreidel: That's all the "training" I've ever had as well, outside of range time and helpful pointers from people who know.


Bolded the part that's kind of a big deal. You've apparently actually fired your gun(s).
 
2013-01-28 12:02:09 PM  

Wayne 985: What is this "I need 30-round mags for multiple intruders" crap? Are they fighting off a robbery or an invasion of the Mongols?


How many rounds does a US soldier take into combat? Do you suppose that perhaps one seventh that is appropriate for someone looking for personal home defense?
 
2013-01-28 12:06:05 PM  

Dr Dreidel: China White Tea: shamanwest: Anyway... while I was not able to fire the gun, I was shown how it worked and how to hold it.

Wait, what? You/your family bought a gun for self-defense and the extent of your training with it was, "Yeah, here's the bang switch, try not to miss, and if you can hit a body part they actually need, that would be ideal."

Seriously?

Short of intensive training sessions, or being placed into that situation as a training exercise, what else is there?

That's all the "training" I've ever had as well, outside of range time and helpful pointers from people who know. Like my brother, who critiqued my "elbow out" stance when holding an AR-15 - apparently, you want to present a smaller profile to the enemy when you're standing up.

// things you don't think about when firing at water-filled bottles


The no elbow out thing has nothing to do with the profile the enemy sees but rather it acts as a stabilizer. When your elbow is sticking out you can't get any real leverage on the weapon system and will cause you to take more time reacquiring your target.
 
2013-01-28 12:07:40 PM  

Mr. Eugenides: Wayne 985: What is this "I need 30-round mags for multiple intruders" crap? Are they fighting off a robbery or an invasion of the Mongols?

How many rounds does a US soldier take into combat? Do you suppose that perhaps one seventh that is appropriate for someone looking for personal home defense?


I must have missed all those Taliban invading American homes.
 
2013-01-28 12:10:04 PM  

James F. Campbell: Bloody William: you're much, much more likely to hurt or kill the very people you're trying to protect than the people invading your home.

You could have just left off the rest of it. This is true by itself, simply by virtue of owning a firearm.


I've started looking at guns like sex, and not just because I have sadly poor access to either.

People are going to own guns. It's part of the culture of this country. We're too large and there are too many to get them out of society. So we should focus on educating people and making gun ownership as safe as possible, by teaching them how to own guns safely, how dangerous guns can be, and why you should never fark your sister.

I might be mixing my metaphors, but since we can't get rid of owning guns as an idea (nor am I saying we should), we should focus on teaching as many people as much as possible about all aspects of them, so they can be treated safely.
 
2013-01-28 12:11:10 PM  
I was having this argument with my future father in law and he asked me what if I were in that exact same situation? Would I be wishing that I had an AR15 or assault rifle. Then I said no, I'd be glad that his son had a hand gun and taught me basic gun safety and took me to a range so that were I in that situation I can at least puff myself up enough and either scare intruders off or shoot them somewhere on their bodies until I can run and hide with a cell phone and the gun. At least I wouldn't spray my walls, furniture and dog in the process.
 
2013-01-28 12:11:16 PM  

Mr. Eugenides: Wayne 985: What is this "I need 30-round mags for multiple intruders" crap? Are they fighting off a robbery or an invasion of the Mongols?

How many rounds does a US soldier take into combat? Do you suppose that perhaps one seventh that is appropriate for someone looking for personal home defense?


... not to destroy your analogy, but generally soldiers take multiple magazines, and even carry multiple firearms. Some, like machine gunners, even carry containers of hundreds of rounds.
 
2013-01-28 12:11:22 PM  

Mr. Eugenides: SurfaceTension: Ladies, get a shotgun.

Apparently you missed the part where they pointed out that the AR-15 is lighter and more accurate than a shotgun.

Indoors, the AR can be shot from the hip because the recoil isn't high. As for a 12 gauge if either of those women tried to shoot one from the hip they'd break their wrists. I would say that makes the AR a much better option for those women than a shotgun.


No they wouldn't break their wrists, they shouldn't be firing from the hip, shotguns come in more then 12 guage, and many are lighter then an AR-15 with better weight distribution and in close quaters the difference in accuracy between the two systems is negligible.
 
2013-01-28 12:13:31 PM  

Mr. Eugenides: Wayne 985: What is this "I need 30-round mags for multiple intruders" crap? Are they fighting off a robbery or an invasion of the Mongols?

How many rounds does a US soldier take into combat? Do you suppose that perhaps one seventh that is appropriate for someone looking for personal home defense?


Many times I have taken less then 7 mags with me. The reason to carry that much ammo is not to hit targets but to suppress targets. If 5 guys come into a home, I need 10 rounds.
 
2013-01-28 12:15:24 PM  

Mr. Eugenides: Wayne 985: What is this "I need 30-round mags for multiple intruders" crap? Are they fighting off a robbery or an invasion of the Mongols?

How many rounds does a US soldier take into combat? Do you suppose that perhaps one seventh that is appropriate for someone looking for personal home defense?


Absolutely (if you live in Baghdad or Juarez).
 
2013-01-28 12:18:42 PM  

rynthetyn: SurfaceTension: Ladies, get a shotgun.

I'm not a gun person, but if I were to buy something for home defense, it seems like an AR-15 is like trying to prune a rose bush with a chain saw. Do these people not understand the concept of using the right tool for the job?


Soldiers use m4s when they sweep buildings. That's a shortened, automatic variant of the AR-15. It's an entirely appropriate tool for home defense.
 
2013-01-28 12:19:03 PM  
So because you can't be arsed to train yourself to efficiently use x rounds, we shouldn't feel a little nervous that your brilliant plan is to never, ever have to reload.

Got it.
 
2013-01-28 12:22:34 PM  

Uranus Is Huge!: Mr. Eugenides: Wayne 985: What is this "I need 30-round mags for multiple intruders" crap? Are they fighting off a robbery or an invasion of the Mongols?

How many rounds does a US soldier take into combat? Do you suppose that perhaps one seventh that is appropriate for someone looking for personal home defense?

Absolutely (if you live in Baghdad or Juarez).


If you live in El Paso, TX, you basically do live in Juarez.
 
2013-01-28 12:26:47 PM  

Bloody William: dittybopper: tallguywithglasseson: "I want a gun that can hold a lot of ammo because if I'm faced with an intruder or multiple intruders that come into my home, I want to make sure I have enough ammo to get the job done

Just what the fark are you girls doing at that gun range, anyway?

Oh, that's not sexist. Not one bit.

I think he meant "What the fark are you girls doing at that gun range, anyway?" not "What the fark are you girls doing at that gun range, anyway?"

The implication being that if they're spending time at a gun range and still need "enough ammo to get the job done" (one is ideal, a few is understandable, 30 is you being farking blind and accidentally shooting your neighbors), they're shiatty gun users and aren't benefiting from shooting, not that they shouldn't be there because of being girls.

I think.


I think that ignores some major realities. I'll lay them out for you:

1. Shooting during very stressful situations results in more misses than hits. That's the reality. Even trained police officers in those situations often miss far more often than they hit, even at very close range.

2. People can often be hit several times by bullets, even hits that are ultimately lethal, and still continue to function. Anyone who has read about defensive shooting has heard the horror stories of people on drugs not noticing that they were dead yet. Hell, I once shot a doe with a perfect heart shot, destroying her heart, and she still ran 30 yards before collapsing.

3. It isn't necessarily 1 person defending against 1 other person. There could be multiple attackers, and often, there are in home invasions.

Let's say you have 2 attackers, you hit with 33% of your shots (very good shooting in a gunfight), and they can take an average of least 3 hits before stopping. That's a total of 18 shots just for two people, and that assumes you are a cool, collected shooter.

Range time is important, but I don't think it's particularly fair to assume that a person has to have Carlos Hathcock levels of coolness and accuracy while being attacked. Most people won't.
 
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