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(Des Moines Register)   It seems children are experiencing more attention disorders in recent yea- just a sec, got a text message....aaaaannnd sent. So what was I saying?   (desmoinesregister.com ) divider line
    More: Obvious, attention disorders, hyperactivity disorder, child psychiatrist, real self, University of Iowa Hospitals  
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2119 clicks; posted to Main » on 28 Jan 2013 at 4:31 AM (3 years ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-01-28 09:36:56 AM  

Sid_6.7: F*ck you, subby, and anyone who makes fun of this.

I an adult with ADD. I was diagnosed halfway through high school. I went on meds and went from a 2.66 GPA to a 4.0. If not for the diagnosis and the meds I would have barely graduated, would never have gone to college, and would, over all, have a vastly sh*ttier standard of living...


Really? From the tone of your comment I would have guessed you were 13.
 
2013-01-28 09:48:40 AM  

mittromneysdog: Except the doctors here were childhood behavior specialists.


Um, no. That's your inference, unsupported by any evidence.

Several possible reasons. One of them could be that kids in Glasgow get ADHD at ten times the rate as kids in Dundee. It could be that doctors in Glasgow have received specialized training in identifying ADHD, but that the doctors in Dundee have not. It could be that parents in Glasgow are better informed about ADHD, and therefore more likely to bring kids with symptoms to the doctor for it.

You haven't quite followed my point. Given the diagnosis of ADHD, doctors in Glasgow are ten times more likely to prescribe Ritalin than doctors in Dundee. I find it interesting, by the way, that none of your possible reasons involves the possibility that the doctors in Dundee are right.
 
2013-01-28 09:58:00 AM  

ManOfTeal: Yes, it's called Strattera, it's a non-stimulant medication for ADHD and it doesn't work. Especially if you have already been on stimulant ADHD meds prior to using it.

Plus, if for some reason you can't get the pill down all the way and it get stuck in your esophagus, it will burn for days and hurt like hell whenever you swallow food.



It worked (And seems to work) for me, and I was on stimulants before switching. (Was part of the last stages of the drug study for a bit, too.) . That said, I seem to recall A) It took a *long* time to start working (As in, had to build up over time), and B), it felt like it worked... 'differently', if that makes sense. Like, when I was on Ritalin, it felt like I was *forced* to focus, but now it's more of a choice?

Bah, I'm not explaining how it feels mentally very well. It does seem to work *vastly* differently from person to person, though. (My mother felt like she was 'watching herself' and discontinued immediately. ... ADD runs strong in this family.)

To be fair, I suppose it is possibly the placebo effect, and I've simply developed much better coping mechanisms over the years. A sample size of one is not really evidence one way or the other, so I can't say "Oh yes it totally works".

Regardless: heck yes on the second one.
 
2013-01-28 10:03:55 AM  
I suffer from a combination of IHE syndome and TSIB disease. IHE, I Hate Everything, is classified by hating everything. TSIB, This shiat Is Boring, is classified by finding everything boring and uninteresting.
 
2013-01-28 10:15:41 AM  

Felgraf: ManOfTeal: Yes, it's called Strattera, it's a non-stimulant medication for ADHD and it doesn't work. Especially if you have already been on stimulant ADHD meds prior to using it.

Plus, if for some reason you can't get the pill down all the way and it get stuck in your esophagus, it will burn for days and hurt like hell whenever you swallow food.


It worked (And seems to work) for me, and I was on stimulants before switching. (Was part of the last stages of the drug study for a bit, too.) . That said, I seem to recall A) It took a *long* time to start working (As in, had to build up over time), and B), it felt like it worked... 'differently', if that makes sense. Like, when I was on Ritalin, it felt like I was *forced* to focus, but now it's more of a choice?

Bah, I'm not explaining how it feels mentally very well. It does seem to work *vastly* differently from person to person, though. (My mother felt like she was 'watching herself' and discontinued immediately. ... ADD runs strong in this family.)

To be fair, I suppose it is possibly the placebo effect, and I've simply developed much better coping mechanisms over the years. A sample size of one is not really evidence one way or the other, so I can't say "Oh yes it totally works".

Regardless: heck yes on the second one.


I tried Strattera twice, once for 6 months after having been on Adderall for about 7 years. Then, after being on nothing at all for about 18 months, I tried it the second time and was on it for over a year because I felt I needed something. I would always find myself questioning if it was working, then Vyvanse came out and I switched to that. Haven't looked back since.
 
2013-01-28 10:19:00 AM  

CeroX: Sounds like the only think you know about and i should trust you on is bipolar, i have ADD, my wife's best friend is horribly ADHD... the condition is chemical and triggered by stimuli or a lack thereof... I get treated for it, and it was explained to me pretty clearly. I tried to clarify it in a post earlier, it's a side effect of ADD called Hyper-Focus... It's a chemical reaction in the brain as a reaction to stimulus. The right kind of stimulus causes the brain to start producing the chemicals that allow the brain to stay focus on task, but because the brain of an ADD person isn't used to those sorts of chemicals, the result is overcompensation. The person then becomes entranced by the stimulus, there are various forms of stimuli that can cause this, but they mostly have to do with small simple challenges with a pay off or reward system... TV/movies have it, books can have it, though nothing compared to games...

Like i sa ...


Okay, I think I have a better understanding of it now. Like if something offers a lot of quick-moving stimulus (like a video game), the brain can focus better on it, but if there isn't enough of a stimulus, it just goes nuts. That makes sense - thanks for the explanation. I always assumed it was a lack of focus - not an excess of it that just can't be centered.
 
2013-01-28 10:29:04 AM  

Crackers Are a Family Food: Resident Muslim: I've seen many kids with ADHD.
They cannot focus on ANYTHING* for more than a few minutes.

* this excludes iPads, video games and cartoon channels which miraculously they can focus on for hours at a time

Seriously, part of the diagnostic criteria should be to have the kid play a video game. If they can sit still and focus perfectly on that, they don't have ADHD. Trust me, if you honestly have a condition that makes it impossible to concentrate and stay still (bipolar disorder in my case), you can't concentrate on anything, no matter how interesting it is. I can play video games for maybe 15 minutes (time to pause and do something else), can't write a reply (hehe) without going through a playlist on iTunes, and I haven't sat through a movie in probably 15 years.

ADHD is real and is very debilitating to people who have it. But when you have a mental or neurological condition like it, you can't just turn it off and on based on what's interesting to you. It doesn't work that way. I wish it did.


Your restlessness comes from within grasshopper.

Remember, the mind, like the pool, if not still does not reflect...

The truth WILL set you free.


/welcome to the real world Neo.
 
zez
2013-01-28 10:53:08 AM  
I have 2 boys, an 8 year old and a 4 year old. The oldest has ADHD and we've always kinda known. He can't stay focused on anything, talks non-stop but hardly ever finishes a thought and had to be jumping or swinging his arms all the time, but if you give hm a book he will sit still for hours and hours in perfect silence.

The 4 year old is all boy, running climbing jumping but he doesn't act at all like his brother.

So yes, there is a difference between normal active boy and one with ADHD.
 
2013-01-28 10:58:47 AM  
way farking over-diagnosed. They tried to tell me I have it, and I finally figured something out. If it interests me, I stick with it. If it's a boring meeting or someone telling me about the square root of pi - I space it out. Example: boss says I want this done by Tuesday - too bad, so sad. I won't remember or care. If my daughter says she has a dance recital at 6:00 p.m. on Feb 9 - no problem, it's in stone. Once I figured that out, I realized I have to write things down that I don't care about. Problem solved. No meds, no counseling. All I needed was a tablet PC with calendar software and the desire to do just enough to keep the boring crap in my life organized. One of the docs I used to see said it like this (paraphrasing): If you can go to the movie theater and watch a movie you really love all the way through with no problems but get bored watching a chick-flick, you don't have ADD. I can sit down and watch The Lord of the Rings (all three) in one day, but can't get 15 minutes into How to Lose a Guy in 10 Days. That's been my litmus test ever since.
 
2013-01-28 11:09:33 AM  

mittromneysdog: Millennium: mittromneysdog: How much training do random assholes get in childhood behavior issues? Or the pharmacology of amphetamines?

To be fair, certified teachers actually do get some training in child and adolescent psychology, of which behavior issues are a part. However, last I checked this did not include psychopharmacology.

Yes, I agree. It looks like you're disagreeing with me here, but we seem to share the same view on this point. Maybe you misunderstood my post.


It seems to me that we share similar viewpoints to a degree, but we're not in agreement. You speak of people studying "science," but it has been a long time since anyone had no other title than "scientist": the discipline now consists of a staggering number of highly-specialized fields. The professionals you speak of all had some overlap with the relevant fields (for example, the teachers who had some training in adolescent psychology) but not so many people who were actually in the relevant fields.

The one who actually tested the kid was probably in the relevant field. But this is the one who found "no difficulties." Someone is clearly wrong here, and all else being equal, I'd say the people who didn't run the tests are more likely to be wrong. This doesn't mean that the kid doesn't have behavioral issues, but difficulties with attention and focus can come from many things, and only some of them fall under the category we typically call ADHD. If these teachers and physicians are all crying ADHD but the tests don't show ADHD, then odds are that these "professionals" are barking up the wrong tree: a go-to diagnosis that doesn't actually describe this case, and does no one any favors.

I said that teachers get some training in adolescent psychology, and they do, but only to a limited degree: they are not qualified to diagnose or to suggest particular interventions. The same likely goes for the physicians: this isn't their field. At most, they should have noted that the current treatments aren't working, suggested a different battery of tests, and left it at that.
 
2013-01-28 11:58:45 AM  

orbister: You haven't quite followed my point. Given the diagnosis of ADHD, doctors in Glasgow are ten times more likely to prescribe Ritalin than doctors in Dundee.

orbister: Um, no. That's your inference, unsupported by any evidence.


It is the best inference supported by the evidence provided. Surely this loving and intelligent parent didn't take her child to a podiatrist to deal with moodiness, rebelliousness, and risk taking behavior. When she took her child in for a disability evaluation involving those issues in particular, she would have taken them into appropriate experts. If she didn't, that's not medicine's problem. That's hers.

You haven't quite followed my point.

I followed your words just fine. You failed to explain yourself clearly.

I find it interesting, by the way, that none of your possible reasons involves the possibility that the doctors in Dundee are right.

I find it even more interesting that the idea that the doctors in Glasgow are right is so beyond your ken that you consider a mere prescription disparity as solid evidence for your point, when there are any number of possible reasons for it, even accounting for your moved goalposts. Maybe parents in Glasgow are better able to afford ADHD meds than parents in Dundee. Maybe cases of ADHD in Glasgow are more serious than cases in Dundee. Maybe there is a higher social stigma to ADHD meds in Dundee than in Glasgow. The mere fact that some doctors are more likely to prescribe a medication than others proves almost nothing by itself.
 
2013-01-28 12:16:42 PM  
It seems to me that we share similar viewpoints to a degree, but we're not in agreement.

We agreed that teachers have some training in relevant fields. When I said we agree, I was only referring to that one issue.

You speak of people studying "science," but it has been a long time since anyone had no other title than "scientist": the discipline now consists of a staggering number of highly-specialized fields.

As I explained more clearly later, the doctors involved in this case were more likely than not schooled in relevant fields.You acknowledge that at least one of them surely was.

The one who actually tested the kid was probably in the relevant field. But this is the one who found "no difficulties." Someone is clearly wrong here, and all else being equal, I'd say the people who didn't run the tests are more likely to be wrong. This doesn't mean that the kid doesn't have behavioral issues, but difficulties with attention and focus can come from many things, and only some of them fall under the category we typically call ADHD. If these teachers and physicians are all crying ADHD but the tests don't show ADHD, then odds are that these "professionals" are barking up the wrong tree: a go-to diagnosis that doesn't actually describe this case, and does no one any favors.

Yes, this "no difficulties" issues puzzling. If the child wasn't having difficulties, why did she take him in for a disability evaluation? Then, there's the fact that despite the "no difficulties" this child had, a minimum of four professionals, at least three of whom you acknowledge had at least some relevant training, and two of whom deal with childhood behavioral problems every day of their working lives, recommended medication.

The best inference is that relevant information was left out. It isn't unheard of for doctors to prescribe medicines for symptoms that mimic certain ailments, even if all the diagnostic criteria aren't met. Sometimes they even do it for diagnostic purposes. I.e., "this kid has some symptoms of ADHD, but for some reason he doesn't seem to fit all criteria 100%. Let's see how he responds to medication." I'm not saying this is definitely what happened in this case. I'm suggesting it's one possibility, because I find it implausible that four professionals recommended medication for a child who had literally no difficulties whatsoever.
 
2013-01-28 12:38:35 PM  

PrinceOfPersia: The Boobies was the sound of an emotional, angry post from someone all too used to being told they're an idiot and their condition is made up, and it's appropriate that even on Fark, where you can find at least some discussion and understanding for disorders like body dysphoria and transsexualism, is treated with such scorn.


That. Leave Sid alone.

I have a similar reaction to Farkers who "know" what it's like to have an addiction, and they "know" that it's not real, and they "know" how to cure it.
 
2013-01-28 01:16:02 PM  

mittromneysdog: I find it even more interesting that the idea that the doctors in Glasgow are right is so beyond your ken that you consider a mere prescription disparity as solid evidence for your point, when there are any number of possible reasons for it, even accounting for your moved goalposts.


You really, really don't want to believe that Ritalin is ever over-prescribed, do you? Care to give us a bit of background and explain the reason for that?

Maybe parents in Glasgow are better able to afford ADHD meds than parents in Dundee. Maybe cases of ADHD in Glasgow are more serious than cases in Dundee. Maybe there is a higher social stigma to ADHD meds in Dundee than in Glasgow. The mere fact that some doctors are more likely to prescribe a medication than others proves almost nothing by itself.

It's a ten fold disparity, between two cities with very similar populations and social makeups. Oh, and NHS. Cost of drugs is irrelevant here.
 
2013-01-28 01:19:11 PM  

mittromneysdog: Yes, this "no difficulties" issues puzzling. If the child wasn't having difficulties, why did she take him in for a disability evaluation?


Maybe because she wanted to know whether he had ADHD or if he was just a normal, if lively, boy? It may comes as a surprise to you that many diagnostic tests give negative results, even though someone was concerned enough to run them.

I'm still curious, by the way, to find out why you think teachers are qualified to recommend medication.
 
2013-01-28 03:42:20 PM  

PrinceOfPersia: It's a massive shame that the thread looks like it does right now. Plenty of people screaming that Big Pharma invented the condition and that some anecdotal experiences with snotty-nosed little kids with extremely poor parents being labelled with the condition disproves the entire condition's existence, carefully skirting the fact that it exists on adults, and the amount of extremely famous and successful adults that have come out as having ADHD. Are we saying these folk are using the label as an excuse for their failure? They haven't failed by my measure.

The Boobies was the sound of an emotional, angry post from someone all too used to being told they're an idiot and their condition is made up, and it's appropriate that even on Fark, where you can find at least some discussion and understanding for disorders like body dysphoria and transsexualism, is treated with such scorn.

Actual science recognises the condition, and in the latest DSM-V, it is still there, but has been refined and redefined, not eliminated, into a spectrum condition. I really don't want to share a label that so many associate with a either a children's disease, an American over-medication hoax, a crux for failure or a drug-seeker's 'disease' and I ESPECIALLY don't like taking the *pre-existing* and not made for purpose medications for it, as they have such a bad reputation and they have unpleasant side effects. I don't like collecting that medication at the pharmacy any more than you like the idea of someone using it for treatment.

Let me tell you what it's like - you cannot put your attention where you want it; it goes where it pleases, usually on the most interesting thing at the time. Imagine having to do something monotonous, tedious or otherwise extremely dull, but extremely important. You know full well that your life will be easier when you complete the task in good time, that you can continue to provide for yourself and your loved one if you apply yourself, that you will contin ...


Hey I grew up with a sibling still crippled by ADHD in a sense. He's going to be 40 this year and cannot hold a job. Hell, you're lucky if he can hold a coherent conversation with how his mind hops from subject to subject...

That said, and combined with your own descriptions in your post, there are way too many normally disruptive kids out there on drugs they absolutely do not need. Hell I'm a hyper individual. I've often wondered what drug I would have been on as a kid had I been born 10 years later. Like one parent above... teachers and doctors wringing their hands that he wouldn't put his kid on meds. Good for you dad!

Many folks are just saying to take it slow and apply (un)common sense before resorting to pills. Kids are weird critters. They aren't the same minute to minute. Best observe a while to establish a true baseline.

I know what you mean though. My brother's awesome and harrying at the same time for his disconnected presence in this reality...
 
2013-01-29 01:26:48 AM  

PrinceOfPersia: It's a massive shame that the thread looks like it does right now. Plenty of people screaming that Big Pharma invented the condition and that some anecdotal experiences with snotty-nosed little kids with extremely poor parents being labelled with the condition disproves the entire condition's existence, carefully skirting the fact that it exists on adults, and the amount of extremely famous and successful adults that have come out as having ADHD. Are we saying these folk are using the label as an excuse for their failure? They haven't failed by my measure.

The Boobies was the sound of an emotional, angry post from someone all too used to being told they're an idiot and their condition is made up, and it's appropriate that even on Fark, where you can find at least some discussion and understanding for disorders like body dysphoria and transsexualism, is treated with such scorn.

Actual science recognises the condition, and in the latest DSM-V, it is still there, but has been refined and redefined, not eliminated, into a spectrum condition. I really don't want to share a label that so many associate with a either a children's disease, an American over-medication hoax, a crux for failure or a drug-seeker's 'disease' and I ESPECIALLY don't like taking the *pre-existing* and not made for purpose medications for it, as they have such a bad reputation and they have unpleasant side effects. I don't like collecting that medication at the pharmacy any more than you like the idea of someone using it for treatment.

Let me tell you what it's like - you cannot put your attention where you want it; it goes where it pleases, usually on the most interesting thing at the time. Imagine having to do something monotonous, tedious or otherwise extremely dull, but extremely important. You know full well that your life will be easier when you complete the task in good time, that you can continue to provide for yourself and your loved one if you apply yourself, that you will continu ...


Thank you for being the voice of reason I was too pissed off/drunk to be initially.
 

Crackers Are a Family Food: Okay, I think I have a better understanding of it now. Like if something offers a lot of quick-moving stimulus (like a video game), the brain can focus better on it, but if there isn't enough of a stimulus, it just goes nuts. That makes sense - thanks for the explanation. I always assumed it was a lack of focus - not an excess of it that just can't be centered.


For me, I require mental stimulus. Back in high school, before I was diagnosed or medicated, I could spend a solid 3-4 hours focusing on a game of chess, because it was f*cking fascinating. It was stimulating. Sitting in class listening to a teacher regurgitate the sh*t in the text book? Not so much. But, I will note, for "normal" people, listening to a lecture about the crap from the book seemed to be a real goddamn challenge for them.


Stick me in a group situation designed so that the lowest common denominator can keep up and of course my attention drifts. And I end up thinking about something I actually find interesting, like whatever minute details about the latest D&D campaign I'm cooking up. If a speaker is three words into the first sentence of a 10 minutes paragraph about *insert random topic* and I already know what will be said, then I tune it the f*ck out. It is torture not to.

I'm not claiming that every ADD case is like that, but I need something interesting, a genuine challenge, if I am to remain interested. If I am given work that is the mental equivalent of screwing toothpaste caps onto tubes, then I better pray I've taken my meds.
 
2013-01-29 07:38:11 AM  
when i got on ADD meds i definitely spent much more time jacking it. side effects of amphetamines
 
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