Do you have adblock enabled?
 
If you can read this, either the style sheet didn't load or you have an older browser that doesn't support style sheets. Try clearing your browser cache and refreshing the page.

(Des Moines Register)   It seems children are experiencing more attention disorders in recent yea- just a sec, got a text message....aaaaannnd sent. So what was I saying?   (desmoinesregister.com ) divider line
    More: Obvious, attention disorders, hyperactivity disorder, child psychiatrist, real self, University of Iowa Hospitals  
•       •       •

2121 clicks; posted to Main » on 28 Jan 2013 at 4:31 AM (3 years ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



118 Comments     (+0 »)
 
View Voting Results: Smartest and Funniest
 
2013-01-28 12:27:46 AM  
F*ck you, subby, and anyone who makes fun of this.

I an adult with ADD. I was diagnosed halfway through high school. I went on meds and went from a 2.66 GPA to a 4.0. If not for the diagnosis and the meds I would have barely graduated, would never have gone to college, and would, over all, have a vastly sh*ttier standard of living.

And I never asked for any breaks other than taking meds. No extra time on tests, none of that.

I still struggle every goddamn day, and still take meds, to deal with the f*cked up society you low-intelligence disinterested f*ckwits have built for yourselves because you are only capable of dealing with having everything placed before you in nice neat rows, but are unable to question or dream.

So, in conclusion, f*ck you, subby. Go DIAF.

/and I f*cking hate text messaging
//it's too distracting
 
2013-01-28 12:32:18 AM  

Sid_6.7: I


I'm

Looks pretty good other than that,
 
2013-01-28 12:39:33 AM  

Sid_6.7: I an adult with ADD.


Not to insult or anything, but what do you think about the American Psychiatric Association no longer recognizing ADD as a legitimate disorder?
 
2013-01-28 12:57:20 AM  
I especially loved TFA's author getting bored 80% of the way through the article, and deciding to just start making things up, re: 'ADD brains process information more slowly, so they fidgit to wake up their brains'. Which 30 seconds of googling could have disproved.

For this reporter's next trick, he can help Calvin do a report on bats.
 
2013-01-28 01:27:30 AM  
Please forgive my ignorance, but for the sufferers, what were the signs and how is ADD diagnosed?
 
2013-01-28 02:05:45 AM  

Sid_6.7: only capable of dealing with having everything placed before you in nice neat rows


Hey now, lay off the OCD folks.
 
2013-01-28 02:51:25 AM  

Counter_Intelligent: Please forgive my ignorance, but for the sufferers, what were the signs and how is ADD diagnosed?


Google it...

And if you can't make it to the third search result without checking your phone or opening a different tab, you may qualify. ;-)

/not a doctor
 
2013-01-28 03:00:55 AM  

encyclopediaplushuman: Sid_6.7: I an adult with ADD.

Not to insult or anything, but what do you think about the American Psychiatric Association no longer recognizing ADD as a legitimate disorder?


Perhaps you're confused because nowadays it's called ADHD. And as you can see from the link, they recognize it.
 
2013-01-28 03:03:05 AM  
I think part of being a child is having ADD.

People want children to be little adults and focus on things while their brains (the kids) are racing with new inputs and distractions that adults are hardened too..oh look at the cloud, the sunlight from the window...that end of the pencil tip..the way the pencil hits the paper and leaves dusts sometimes, the texture of paper, the little imperfections in their desks..etc..etc. and the adults now have 'name' for it ADD...and drug them. Even in Charlie brown the adults were all WHAAA WHAAA WHAAA. Let kids be kids.

while sometimes it's a big problem for few kids, but most kids that what we'd call ADD is because they're processing new info, distracted from adult imposed regiment;  from the light in a rainbow, an ant is more interesting than a teacher, and a cloud is wonder to behold.
 
2013-01-28 04:33:32 AM  
It's in the water and food. Environmental toxins DO cause problems despite the fact that the FDA is bribed with billions to keep approving whatever big business can cut into the supply chain.
 
2013-01-28 04:36:37 AM  

Sid_6.7: F*ck you, subby, and anyone who makes fun of this.

I an adult with ADD. I was diagnosed halfway through high school. I went on meds and went from a 2.66 GPA to a 4.0. If not for the diagnosis and the meds I would have barely graduated, would never have gone to college, and would, over all, have a vastly sh*ttier standard of living.

And I never asked for any breaks other than taking meds. No extra time on tests, none of that.

I still struggle every goddamn day, and still take meds, to deal with the f*cked up society you low-intelligence disinterested f*ckwits have built for yourselves because you are only capable of dealing with having everything placed before you in nice neat rows, but are unable to question or dream.

So, in conclusion, f*ck you, subby. Go DIAF.

/and I f*cking hate text messaging
//it's too distracting


userserve-ak.last.fm
 
2013-01-28 04:38:39 AM  
The best part of having ADHD is
 
2013-01-28 04:39:22 AM  
Sid_6.7:

Ok, ADD tackled. Next up, anger management.
 
2013-01-28 04:40:40 AM  

encyclopediaplushuman: Sid_6.7: I an adult with ADD.

Not to insult or anything, but what do you think about the American Psychiatric Association no longer recognizing ADD as a legitimate disorder?


Part of that has to do with the reorganization of autism as a spectrum disorder. I suspect that ADD may have gotten subsumed into ASD, since a lot of the symptoms are the same.

I also suspect that overdiagnosis of normal 5-year olds because teacher/mommy&daddy/the school nurse seem to feel that it's easier to call a kid ADD and hand him a pill instead of scheduling more recess may have played a part.
 
2013-01-28 04:41:46 AM  

SquiggsIN: It's in the water and food. Environmental toxins DO cause problems despite the fact that the FDA is bribed with billions to keep approving whatever big business can cut into the supply chain.


I think water is much, much better, and far more controlled and safer in today's world than it was in the 1960, 50, 40s. Before the EPA was enacted.
 
Skr
2013-01-28 04:41:57 AM  
 
2013-01-28 04:42:54 AM  
So Natalie is actually mentally handicapped somehow beyond the ADHD, right?

Autistic? Brain damaged? Microcephalic?
 
2013-01-28 04:44:36 AM  
i'm afraid Sid_6.7 was misdiagnosed. autism is the culprit here.
 
2013-01-28 04:51:40 AM  
The doctor secretly switched Sid_6.7's ADD pills with anabolic sterioids, lets see if he can maintain a calm rational state.

Sid_6.7: So, in conclusion, f*ck you, subby. Go DIAF.

/and I f*cking hate text messaging


Oh shiat...
 
2013-01-28 04:52:40 AM  
Human beings aren't wired to spend their formative years sitting still in one position for hours, reading things, listening to someone talk about things they mostly don't care about, then filling in little bubbles about other things they mostly don't care about. Why is it a surprise some people aren't good at it? In modern society it may be a 'disorder' because it makes it harder for you to sit quietly in your cubicle and do paperwork, but I'm not sure it's a defect. For most of the time humans have been humans, they spent their time moving around, doing multiple tasks in a sensory rich environment where they needed to be alert to many different things. If you focused in too tightly on one specific repetitive task you might miss whatever was sneaking up behind you to kill you.
 
2013-01-28 04:53:09 AM  

optikeye: SquiggsIN: It's in the water and food. Environmental toxins DO cause problems despite the fact that the FDA is bribed with billions to keep approving whatever big business can cut into the supply chain.

I think water is much, much better, and far more controlled and safer in today's world than it was in the 1960, 50, 40s. Before the EPA was enacted.


keep thinking that
 
2013-01-28 04:55:16 AM  
I've seen many kids with ADHD.
They cannot focus on ANYTHING* for more than a few minutes.
You have to think about their parents**


* this excludes iPads, video games and cartoon channels which miraculously they can focus on for hours at a time
** parents who never ever even try to have the kids sit down or God forbid shout at them to settle down and finish what they need to do

/personally know a parent who went and gave a teacher a stern talking to after said teacher failed the kid in an exam. An exam in which the kid wrote nothing at all on the paper
//also personally dealt with a kid in a summer program who was diagnosed with ADHD. Kid was causing turmoil and crying and throwing himself in the middle of the playing court because he couldn't keep the ball. Took the kid and sat down with him in the corner until he stopped his tantrum when he saw it was getting him nowhere.
I then pulled out my phone which had some games on it and asked him if he wanted to play. Of course he did. I let him play a bit. Then said if you want to play some more go out on the field and play well. He went our played, and whenever he would start with a tantrum I'd call out his name and he'd come back to his senses.
///let him play afterwards
////they are not born snowflakes. We are the ones who choose whether to raise the heat or play 'cool parents'
//YMMV, especially if the child is mentally unreachable. Otherwise, for the sake of the kid's future, try.
 
2013-01-28 04:56:11 AM  
I used to have ADD, but I was cured...must wash hands now....I used to have ADD, but I was cured...must wash hands now.... I used to have ADD, but I was cured...must wash hands now.... I used to have ADD, but I was cured...must wash hands now.... I used to have ADD, but I was cured...must wash hands now.... I used to have ADD, but I was cured...must wash hands now.... I used to have ADD, but I was cured...must wash hands now.... I used to have ADD, but I was cured...must wash hands now....
 
2013-01-28 05:00:14 AM  
Especially north Korean children. Very easily distracted these days.
 
2013-01-28 05:02:40 AM  

ambercat: Human beings aren't wired to spend their formative years sitting still in one position for hours, reading things, listening to someone talk about things they mostly don't care about, then filling in little bubbles about other things they mostly don't care about. Why is it a surprise some people aren't good at it? In modern society it may be a 'disorder' because it makes it harder for you to sit quietly in your cubicle and do paperwork, but I'm not sure it's a defect. For most of the time humans have been humans, they spent their time moving around, doing multiple tasks in a sensory rich environment where they needed to be alert to many different things. If you focused in too tightly on one specific repetitive task you might miss whatever was sneaking up behind you to kill you.


i know what you mean. i have always feared that i might get sniped while i am reviewing the TPS reports. why o why did school not prepare me for random acts of homicide?
 
2013-01-28 05:26:53 AM  
I think the fact that pharmaceutical industries have developed wonderful pills for dealing with this shows that it is a REAL PROBLEM. They definitely did NOT create this disorder as a way to push billions of dollars worth of pills into every kid they can.

Besides, even if it were a real disorder for some people, it is definitely NOT due to all the brain-warping chemicals being pumped into the environment. It's genetic, so keep taking your pills, microwaving your food in plastic containers, and living next to smokestacks.
 
2013-01-28 05:34:27 AM  

Sid_6.7: to deal with the f*cked up society you low-intelligence disinterested f*ckwits have built for yourselves because you are only capable of dealing with having everything placed before you in nice neat rows, but are unable to question or dream. So, in conclusion, f*ck you, subby. Go DIAF.


Did your doctor mention tourette's by chance? Perhaps explosive anger disorder?
 
2013-01-28 05:45:29 AM  

ambercat: Human beings aren't wired to spend their formative years sitting still in one position for hours, reading things, listening to someone talk about things they mostly don't care about, then filling in little bubbles about other things they mostly don't care about. Why is it a surprise some people aren't good at it? In modern society it may be a 'disorder' because it makes it harder for you to sit quietly in your cubicle and do paperwork, but I'm not sure it's a defect. For most of the time humans have been humans, they spent their time moving around, doing multiple tasks in a sensory rich environment where they needed to be alert to many different things. If you focused in too tightly on one specific repetitive task you might miss whatever was sneaking up behind you to kill you.


It was also acceptable to react to the "other" by hitting it with a rock. Times change; adapt or be left behind
 
2013-01-28 05:52:36 AM  

Insurgent: i'm afraid Sid_6.7 was misdiagnosed. autism is the culprit here.


In all seriousness - the perception that all of "low-intelligence disinterested f*ckwits" society is against him, in his lone stand against the world - could be classic paranoid schizophrenia.
 
2013-01-28 05:56:48 AM  
Sid_6.7 way to ignore the headline & article is about children (not adults) and to make it all about you. Your explosion speaks volumes about subject matter that counseling and hard work should have attended to long ago.

I'll agree that research and development in pharmaceuticals has resulted in wonderful advancements that most certainly be taken advantage of. The same holds true for the field of psychiatry and counseling. The general field of medicine grows in leaps and bounds and only the most ignorant choose to overlook how many can benefit from others hard work and efforts.

There is also cause for concern FOR CHILDREN that certain poor parenting habits can lend to misdiagnosis. Intake of certain foods and beverages for children should be limited or eliminated, proper amounts of sleep must be part of the daily regimen as well as physical play time in fresh air. Taking care to make certain basic needs are met before moving on to medication is a logical choice.
 
2013-01-28 05:57:32 AM  
We had a kid tested one time for learning disabilities. Test results showed the kid was of average intelligence, with no significant difficulties noted. We were then told to get a full medical work up on the kid. Said kid had levels of hormones consistent with onset of puberty, which have a known history of increased moodiness, rebellion to authority, risk taking behavior, etc. However, when we elected to continue with non-pharmacological behavior management, the 'professionals' were shocked.

Kid was a pain in the neck, and that kid's puberty was hell on everyone in our house. But, I'm still disgusted at the amount of grief we caught from doctors and teachers about non-drugging the kid.

I'm sure there are kids that would benefit from some kind of chemical rebalance, but it can't possibly be as high as the stats indicate currently.
 
2013-01-28 05:58:16 AM  
I think that really, w- SQUIRREL!
 
2013-01-28 06:08:45 AM  

AnubisMan: The doctor secretly switched Sid_6.7's ADD pills with anabolic sterioids, lets see if he can maintain a calm rational state.

Sid_6.7: So, in conclusion, f*ck you, subby. Go DIAF.

/and I f*cking hate text messaging

Oh shiat...


Maybe the doc can switch me too!
P.S. When I was a kid, none of us had A T & T - and none do now either!
 
2013-01-28 06:12:01 AM  
It goes way back
folks with "attention deficit disorder" are better hunters
folks with attention switching disorder are better farmers
can't eat and kill the squirrel if you never even see it

it's a bell curve but I'm glad to be on the hunter side of the curve
people that don't know what's going on around them drive me crazy at times
 
2013-01-28 06:14:57 AM  

ThrobblefootSpectre: Insurgent: i'm afraid Sid_6.7 was misdiagnosed. autism is the culprit here.

In all seriousness - the perception that all of "low-intelligence disinterested f*ckwits" society is against him, in his lone stand against the world - could be classic paranoid schizophrenia.


have you considered he/she might be a Polymath?

a hee
 
2013-01-28 06:37:52 AM  

zepillin: folks with "attention deficit disorder" are better hunters


I seriously question the idea that ADD assists in sitting/moving quietly and patiently for hours to get within spear/arrow distance of a game animal.


zepillin: people that don't know what's going on around them drive me crazy at times


You do realize that ADD is characterized by a deficit of attention, not more than everyone else, right?
 
2013-01-28 06:46:39 AM  

Counter_Intelligent: Please forgive my ignorance, but for the sufferers, what were the signs and how is ADD diagnosed?


By an astonishingly vague and unscientific criteria one of which - I kid you not - is "seems like they have a motor running inside them all the time".
 
2013-01-28 06:46:42 AM  

optikeye: People want children to be little adults and focus on things while their brains (the kids) are racing with new inputs and distractions that adults are hardened too..oh look at the cloud, the sunlight from the window...that end of the pencil tip..the way the pencil hits the paper and leaves dusts sometimes, the texture of paper, the little imperfections in their desks..etc..etc. and the adults now have 'name' for it ADD...and drug them. Even in Charlie brown the adults were all WHAAA WHAAA WHAAA. Let kids be kids.


Sure, humans aren't evolutionarily adapted to sitting in rows and quietly doing sums for 8 hours a day, and there are problems because of the difference between how children function and societal expectations. And if you want to say that ADD is overdiagnosed, I think most psychologists would agree with you. But if you've ever met a child who really has ADD, you know the difference between "being a normal boy that wants to climb trees instead of learn grammar" and someone with ADD. They're the kids that never have any clue what's going on around them. That's not a normal part of being a kid.
 
2013-01-28 06:48:15 AM  

AverageAmericanGuy: So Natalie is actually mentally handicapped somehow beyond the ADHD, right?


From background information the article, I guess FAS (Fetal Alcohol Syndrome). Poor kid.
 
2013-01-28 06:49:11 AM  
It's a massive shame that the thread looks like it does right now. Plenty of people screaming that Big Pharma invented the condition and that some anecdotal experiences with snotty-nosed little kids with extremely poor parents being labelled with the condition disproves the entire condition's existence, carefully skirting the fact that it exists on adults, and the amount of extremely famous and successful adults that have come out as having ADHD. Are we saying these folk are using the label as an excuse for their failure? They haven't failed by my measure.

The Boobies was the sound of an emotional, angry post from someone all too used to being told they're an idiot and their condition is made up, and it's appropriate that even on Fark, where you can find at least some discussion and understanding for disorders like body dysphoria and transsexualism, is treated with such scorn.

Actual science recognises the condition, and in the latest DSM-V, it is still there, but has been refined and redefined, not eliminated, into a spectrum condition. I really don't want to share a label that so many associate with a either a children's disease, an American over-medication hoax, a crux for failure or a drug-seeker's 'disease' and I ESPECIALLY don't like taking the *pre-existing* and not made for purpose medications for it, as they have such a bad reputation and they have unpleasant side effects. I don't like collecting that medication at the pharmacy any more than you like the idea of someone using it for treatment.

Let me tell you what it's like - you cannot put your attention where you want it; it goes where it pleases, usually on the most interesting thing at the time. Imagine having to do something monotonous, tedious or otherwise extremely dull, but extremely important. You know full well that your life will be easier when you complete the task in good time, that you can continue to provide for yourself and your loved one if you apply yourself, that you will continue to build your future. Now imagine not being able to emotionally connect with that future image of yourself and your attention instead judges the task as inferior to pretty much everything else. All other people can tell you is that you need to stop being a child and think of your future and just man up and get it over with.

If I was truly lazy, childish and uncaring about my future and the future of those I love, I wouldn't have been frequently brought to tears by my inability to do what is required and not what is interesting, the weight of actually knowing what its worth to succeed and the hurtful judgements from others when I fail. I wouldn't be in mental pain over it. It is not a nice feeling when you swap jobs because you cannot torture yourself enough to keep the routine going, and within a few months of the novelty wearing off, you can actually feel the disconnect happening and what you previously had such ease doing, becomes harder and harder.

I'm really, really glad on one hand that so many people are so unable to imagine being at odds with themselves like this and can just do as they want provided they care enough; I would dearly love that for myself. I only wish they could instead feel a little empathy or even just leave me alone because I can't do likewise.
 
2013-01-28 06:50:19 AM  
I'm also ADD, but i am not ADHD, i don't have the hyperactivity like my wife's best friend... she's 26 and is like a little kid jumping up and down and uncontrollably laughing and having a hard time paying attention except to her phone games...

ADHD is way more obvious than just ADD or AADD... I've always had problems on keeping focused and staying on task. I used to go through about 100 different new hobbies a year, because i could never stay focused long enough to finish anything... except TV and video games...

Mr Doc told me that TV and video games are a form of stimuli that has a chemical effect on the brains of ADD that has the exact opposite effect that their brain typically operate and we go into a chemical "hyper-focus".

He specifically asked me if i played any online games like World of Warcraft, I told him i used to but it was an issue with my marriage, and that's when he started asking me questions that were very specific that he shouldn't have known about, things like forgetting to eat because i was be too focused on the game, playing for 6,8 sometimes 10 hours at a time without a break...

He told my wife that this is a very common side effect for the ADD. The normal world doesn't produce enough stimuli with short term pay-offs to keep an ADD focused... Video Games, Fictional Books, TV/Movies, are forms of stimuli that allow the brain to chemically focus, but when it does, it over compensates those chemicals, and the brain shuts out other things, like looking through a scope, the brain can only see the task that is stimulating it into focus, and the brain can zero in with pinpoint accuracy on that stimulus, but cannot see the rest of the world unless something interrupts it...


Some of us have lived with it so long that we've had to adapt ourselves to overcome it. I got a job working on computers because i can sit at a computer and multitask the shiat out of it.any given time throughout my worday i talk to a customers on the phone, fill out a HD ticket, Fark, Read a book on Amazon Cloud Reader, discuss work related topics in the group chat, talk with any number of people through IM, correspond emails with my wife, work on code for projects internally, and discuss non-work related topics with my coworkers around me... When my boss asked me, i told him and he came over to watch me work and couldn't keep up with what i do just sitting there watching me... They don't really bother me much about Fark anymore...
 
2013-01-28 06:52:33 AM  

cherryl taggart: I'm sure there are kids that would benefit from some kind of chemical rebalance, but it can't possibly be as high as the stats indicate currently.


I've worked alongside medical and educational professionals with deep experience of working with children on Ritalin. Both sides agreed that ADHD is a real problem - for about 5% of the children diagnosed with it.
 
2013-01-28 06:52:49 AM  

ThrobblefootSpectre: zepillin: folks with "attention deficit disorder" are better hunters

I seriously question the idea that ADD assists in sitting/moving quietly and patiently for hours to get within spear/arrow distance of a game animal.


zepillin: people that don't know what's going on around them drive me crazy at times

You do realize that ADD is characterized by a deficit of attention, not more than everyone else, right?


You oversimplify the condition. It is characterized by an inattention to focus on tasks that are not sufficiently stimulating enough. Games are digital crack.

This actual description is what gives it such a bad reputation, because this is a truth for everyone on this planet. It's just worse in people with the actual condition, and judging the condition is a crapshoot, and is also why it is so difficult to diagnose in children and separate children with the condition from children with no taught value system. It is easier in adults that can better articulate their difficulties.

It is also no longer called ADD, so I would stop using that term as it is a misnomer.
 
2013-01-28 06:57:49 AM  

PrinceOfPersia: The Boobies was the sound of an emotional, angry post from someone all too used to being told they're an idiot and their condition is made up


The problem is that ADHD is inappropriately diagnosed in so many cases that the credibility of the condition is serious damaged for those who really do have a problem and really do deserve our sympathy. See also: Asperger's Syndrome, dyspraxia, dyslexia.
 
2013-01-28 06:58:05 AM  

CeroX: Some of us have lived with it so long that we've had to adapt ourselves to overcome it. I got a job working on computers because i can sit at a computer and multitask the shiat out of it.any given time throughout my worday i talk to a customers on the phone, fill out a HD tic ...


Bingo. Computers are both my worst enemy and my best friend, and I think most adults can say likewise. A million tabs at once, plenty of RAM and a multi-tasking operating system are all I need and I can work like a trojan on an interesting subject. If I'm having a not great day, the ability to taskswitch fast is a good crutch.

A PC that is grinding its drive, swapping out memory and required several seconds to task switch is actually worse than useless to me as it immediately loses my attention. My setups and configurations always go for the plainest interface designs, the lightest memory programs... anything that allows the system to move like greased lightning and just get information from PC to my eyes is perfect.
 
2013-01-28 07:01:42 AM  

orbister: PrinceOfPersia: The Boobies was the sound of an emotional, angry post from someone all too used to being told they're an idiot and their condition is made up

The problem is that ADHD is inappropriately diagnosed in so many cases that the credibility of the condition is serious damaged for those who really do have a problem and really do deserve our sympathy. See also: Asperger's Syndrome, dyspraxia, dyslexia.


I actually don't think it should be treated in kids. That isn't an option because of the effects it has on schooling and exams and the future of the kid, but really, it is not truly distinguishable from bad kids, and who honestly believes that a doctor is going to tell parents 'you are shiatty parents, they need better care' instead of just avoiding that mess altogether and taking the outside gamble?

More than anything, diagnosis needs to be a concrete, measurable thing instead of interview and observational. While being an observational diagnosis hasn't actually allowed bipolar disorder to become a complete joke, it is not appropriate for a disorder that so many people can relate to on a basic level, and one that is diagnosed from childhood.
 
2013-01-28 07:11:59 AM  

PrinceOfPersia: I actually don't think it should be treated in kids. That isn't an option because of the effects it has on schooling and exams and the future of the kid, but really, it is not truly distinguishable from bad kids, and who honestly believes that a doctor is going to tell parents 'you are shiatty parents, they need better care' instead of just avoiding that mess altogether and taking the outside gamble?


I'm with you there. I used to work with a special school for boys with emotional and behavioural difficulties, and the staff there said they had never seen a diagnosed case of ADHD for which they thought drug treatment was appropriate. Instead they used intensive behavioural therapy, much of which worked by giving the children responsibility for their own behaviour. Far too many diagnosed kids will say "Hello-I'm-Fred-I've-got-ADHD" and treat the ADHD as a licence to misbehave, an insurmountable barrier, an unchangeable fate, or all of the above. This school would say "OK, Fred, so you've got boundless energy. That's great, that's a strength. But you need to work on focussing better, and we'll help you with that." Result? 85% of their pupils go on to university.

More than anything, diagnosis needs to be a concrete, measurable thing instead of interview and observational. While being an observational diagnosis hasn't actually allowed bipolar disorder to become a complete joke, it is not appropriate for a disorder that so many people can relate to on a basic level, and one that is diagnosed from childhood.

Oh yes indeed. Such things are hard enough to diagnose when the patient has some adult insight and ability to reflect on and express how they feel. When the patient is a child and you're stuck with observation alone, it becomes very much harder.

Please note that I do not deny that ADHD exists, or that the symptoms can cause great suffering, though I do think that medical diagnoses and treatment are probably inappropriate in the vast majority of childhood cases.
 
2013-01-28 07:15:01 AM  

Sid_6.7: F*ck you, subby, and anyone who makes fun of this.

I an adult with ADD. I was diagnosed halfway through high school. I went on meds and went from a 2.66 GPA to a 4.0. If not for the diagnosis and the meds I would have barely graduated, would never have gone to college, and would, over all, have a vastly sh*ttier standard of living.

And I never asked for any breaks other than taking meds. No extra time on tests, none of that.

I still struggle every goddamn day, and still take meds, to deal with the f*cked up society you low-intelligence disinterested f*ckwits have built for yourselves because you are only capable of dealing with having everything placed before you in nice neat rows, but are unable to question or dream.

So, in conclusion, f*ck you, subby. Go DIAF.

/and I f*cking hate text messaging
//it's too distracting


cdn.inquisitr.com
 
2013-01-28 07:15:04 AM  

PrinceOfPersia: You oversimplify the condition.


I think claiming to be more aware of one's surroundings was oversimplifying the condition.


PrinceOfPersia: It is also no longer called ADD, so I would stop using that term as it is a misnomer.


The person I was responding to used that terminology. I was responding likewise.
 
2013-01-28 07:18:33 AM  

PrinceOfPersia: I actually don't think it should be treated in kids.


Sadly, i'm seeing signs in both of my kids that they are add, though slightly different from each other... I'm trying to take what i know about the problems i have, and see if i can work around the condition to reach them and get them to perform better in school. It's been working as far as learning the school material goes, but my son is also hyper, and when he is at school he is easily distracted and his hyper nature make him become a distraction.

Since i've started working with him on a one on one basis, his grades have done a complete 180. The only bad reports we get are from him being a distraction in class. He's explained it to me and it basically boils down to that he physically cannot sit still, it gets to a point where he tries and tries and tries, but then it's like there's a breaking point and he just can't take it any longer and he has an outburst...

My daughter though, just like me, she isn't hyper, she just can't stay focused, even when you are talking directly to her, you lose her mid sentence... But when it comes to something that stimulates her interest, she's very good at it... again, avoiding medication, i've been working with her very closely... it's actually easier with her because she doesn't have that hyperactive nature that's making her buzz around or vibrate in her seat... she loves art, and so i've been promoting her learning through art and other methods...

On a personal note those, it takes everything i have to be able to put that kind of focus on my kids and a lot of times it requires my wife to help me keep focused on task to be able to help my kids keep on task... The reason she doesn't really do it is because she can't connect with them the way i can. I know first hand what they are going through, and i can come up with ways to reach them and help them, my wife on the other hand has no idea and can't make that connection, see the signs, and eventually gets frustrated trying to deal with it, so she finds it easier keeping me on task instead of them.
 
2013-01-28 07:22:18 AM  

ThrobblefootSpectre: PrinceOfPersia: You oversimplify the condition.

I think claiming to be more aware of one's surroundings was oversimplifying the condition.


PrinceOfPersia: It is also no longer called ADD, so I would stop using that term as it is a misnomer.

The person I was responding to used that terminology. I was responding likewise.


Fair enough. You'll always get a few people trying to twist their conditions, thoughts etc. into strengths.

You could definitely say I'm observant and would probably do well in a high-stress environment like the old hunter idea that is popularly batted around in ADHD sites as a therapy idea for coming to terms with a different mental makeup, but this 'advantage' is useless in a modern world. I may be observant but I can entirely not notice and forget major details that others find incredible, like missing aspects of people's appearance, their names, major locations, major events happens nearby that I've seen before and other things. To me these are just minor variations on a theme that I've experienced all before, and they're not interesting to me. Nothing about that is an advantage.

I think people trying to twist this thing around into veiled 'I'm more manly and better than you simple farmers' things are doing as much damage to the image of the disorder as the mis-diagnosed kids are. It's wonderful if you can actually apply this to your advantage as the people I linked to a list of before could, but make no mistake - this is a disadvantage, not a gift.
 
2013-01-28 07:28:57 AM  

CeroX: PrinceOfPersia: I actually don't think it should be treated in kids.

Sadly, i'm seeing signs in both of my kids that they are add, though slightly different from each other... I'm trying to take what i know about the problems i have, and see if i can work around the condition to reach them and get them to perform better in school. It's been working as far as learning the school material goes, but my son is also hyper, and when he is at school he is easily distracted and his hyper nature make him become a distraction.

Since i've started working with him on a one on one basis, his grades have done a complete 180. The only bad reports we get are from him being a distraction in class. He's explained it to me and it basically boils down to that he physically cannot sit still, it gets to a point where he tries and tries and tries, but then it's like there's a breaking point and he just can't take it any longer and he has an outburst...

My daughter though, just like me, she isn't hyper, she just can't stay focused, even when you are talking directly to her, you lose her mid sentence... But when it comes to something that stimulates her interest, she's very good at it... again, avoiding medication, i've been working with her very closely... it's actually easier with her because she doesn't have that hyperactive nature that's making her buzz around or vibrate in her seat... she loves art, and so i've been promoting her learning through art and other methods...

On a personal note those, it takes everything i have to be able to put that kind of focus on my kids and a lot of times it requires my wife to help me keep focused on task to be able to help my kids keep on task... The reason she doesn't really do it is because she can't connect with them the way i can. I know first hand what they are going through, and i can come up with ways to reach them and help them, my wife on the other hand has no idea and can't make that connection, see the signs, and eventually gets frustr ...


I should probably clarify that I mean it shouldn't be treated in kids with our current diagnostic tools, and even that doesn't sit so well for me as it's a hard break for kids like yours. A proper diagnostic test would be the best possible case. There had been a few indications that you could identify working differences in brain activity with fMRI but that has obviously gone nowhere as it's a ludricrously expensive test for what would be a commonly suspected condition.
 
2013-01-28 07:34:02 AM  
I need to get to work so I won't be here for a while. I might return later, but frankly, I don't fancy the chances of the thread remaining civil and I have better things to do than to be sucked into that.
 
2013-01-28 07:34:23 AM  
heinrich66 - I think the fact that pharmaceutical industries have developed wonderful pills for dealing with this shows that it is a REAL PROBLEM. They definitely did NOT create this disorder as a way to push billions of dollars worth of pills into every kid they can.

Besides, even if it were a real disorder for some people, it is definitely NOT due to all the brain-warping chemicals being pumped into the environment. It's genetic, so keep taking your pills, microwaving your food in plastic containers, and living next to smokestacks.


And we are done here.

As someone said above, if the real intent were to help those with the disease, I would applaud. But they are working to diagnose everyone with something so they can get you to take their medications which they charge hundreds of percent over what it costs them to make it, and makes them very rich at your expense, even if what they are treating is not exactly what is wrong with you. Yes, there are people out there who really suffer from this, but it is just too easy for a doctor who is 'on the take' from Big Pharma to say that your kid, who is actually a little hyperactive and not really troubled by concentration issues, is 'in fact ADHD and needs these medications'. (that Big Pharma pays me to shove onto the population). If these drugs help you, that is great. But please don't be so naive that you think they do this out of some concern for your welfare. They do this to make money, and they would diagnose their own mother with AIDS if they thought they could get her hooked on whatever new drug they are pushing. And the fact that there are parents out there who go along with this because they just can't deal with little Jimmy being all hyper and running around. (Which is what small kids do. Sorry that darn parenting thing cuts into your glamorous life/amazing career/personal ego time.) I think Zappa said it best:

""The more boring (or zombified with drugs my addition) a child is, the more the parents, when showing off the child, receive adulation for being good parents - because they have a tame child-creature in their house."
 
2013-01-28 07:35:39 AM  

CeroX: Since i've started working with him on a one on one basis, his grades have done a complete 180. The only bad reports we get are from him being a distraction in class. He's explained it to me and it basically boils down to that he physically cannot sit still, it gets to a point where he tries and tries and tries, but then it's like there's a breaking point and he just can't take it any longer and he has an outburst...


How old is he, as a matter of interest? I think many boys are simply not ready for the structure of a conventional school class at five, and enter a descending spiral of boredom -> frustration -> misbehaviour -> reprimand -> alienation -> boredom -> ... as a result. The only solution, in my opinion, is not to try to force small boys to be unnaturally still. Every single ADHD-diagnosed kid I've worked with has benefited enormous just from hard physical exercise - running around, walking long distances, anything to stop the energy and frustration building up in them.

Good luck!
 
2013-01-28 07:38:04 AM  

payattention: heinrich66 - I think the fact that pharmaceutical industries have developed wonderful pills for dealing with this shows that it is a REAL PROBLEM. They definitely did NOT create this disorder as a way to push billions of dollars worth of pills into every kid they can.

Besides, even if it were a real disorder for some people, it is definitely NOT due to all the brain-warping chemicals being pumped into the environment. It's genetic, so keep taking your pills, microwaving your food in plastic containers, and living next to smokestacks.

And we are done here.

As someone said above, if the real intent were to help those with the disease, I would applaud. But they are working to diagnose everyone with something so they can get you to take their medications which they charge hundreds of percent over what it costs them to make it, and makes them very rich at your expense, even if what they are treating is not exactly what is wrong with you. Yes, there are people out there who really suffer from this, but it is just too easy for a doctor who is 'on the take' from Big Pharma to say that your kid, who is actually a little hyperactive and not really troubled by concentration issues, is 'in fact ADHD and needs these medications'. (that Big Pharma pays me to shove onto the population). If these drugs help you, that is great. But please don't be so naive that you think they do this out of some concern for your welfare. They do this to make money, and they would diagnose their own mother with AIDS if they thought they could get her hooked on whatever new drug they are pushing. And the fact that there are parents out there who go along with this because they just can't deal with little Jimmy being all hyper and running around. (Which is what small kids do. Sorry that darn parenting thing cuts into your glamorous life/amazing career/personal ego time.) I think Zappa said it best:

""The more boring (or zombified with drugs my addition) a child is, the more the parents, when showi ...


But before I leave I will say that I work in a field that isn't directly related to pharmacy, but close enough for me to say...

...this is all true. The proper counter to all of this is scientific studies without biased sponsorship and trial design that can prove the drugs as effective for the condition. That's hard work and your doctor can't be trusted there. Right now, for adult ADHD, there is not a lot of great quality material at all, but there is enough in children to make a case, albeit not very well.

Only you can trust yourself to trust what you take.
 
2013-01-28 07:41:43 AM  

PrinceOfPersia: I actually don't think it should be treated in kids


When needed, I think the first line of treatment in children should be exercise. Since even just a few minutes of exercise has been shown to help, and measurably improve academic performance. Jumping right to 24/7 amphetamines for developing brains/bodies has always struck me as a truly remarkably bad idea.
 
2013-01-28 07:46:31 AM  

ThrobblefootSpectre: When needed, I think the first line of treatment in children should be exercise. Since even just a few minutes of exercise has been shown to help, and measurably improve academic performance. Jumping right to 24/7 amphetamines for developing brains/bodies has always struck me as a truly remarkably bad idea.


This x 1,000,000,000,000
 
2013-01-28 07:56:39 AM  

orbister: ThrobblefootSpectre: When needed, I think the first line of treatment in children should be exercise. Since even just a few minutes of exercise has been shown to help, and measurably improve academic performance. Jumping right to 24/7 amphetamines for developing brains/bodies has always struck me as a truly remarkably bad idea.

This x 1,000,000,000,000


The current line of understanding is that ADHD brains have too low a dopamine level to fully activate the frontal lobes, reducing executive function. The evidence for this is poor, limited to limited fMRI testing and connecting the dots between behaviour, the short-term effectiveness of stimulant drugs and SSNI style drugs, and the fact that burning off excess energy (and increasing brain dopamine) works so well in adults and children both. So, this x 1x5.0^30.

I'm working to replace the medication with excessive exercise, but this is hard for an adult with a desk job. My ideal would be morning exercise or morning cycle/jog to work, something short at my lunchtime and then something of an evening. For unrelated reasons, I do not have that energy and my life would revolve around remaining functional at work. So for now I'm on medication, and it is a crutch. But for kids... fark the medication, they can handle sports or games.

I've got to turn this fecking thing off and leave for real.
 
2013-01-28 08:03:32 AM  

orbister: CeroX: Since i've started working with him on a one on one basis, his grades have done a complete 180. The only bad reports we get are from him being a distraction in class. He's explained it to me and it basically boils down to that he physically cannot sit still, it gets to a point where he tries and tries and tries, but then it's like there's a breaking point and he just can't take it any longer and he has an outburst...

How old is he, as a matter of interest? I think many boys are simply not ready for the structure of a conventional school class at five, and enter a descending spiral of boredom -> frustration -> misbehaviour -> reprimand -> alienation -> boredom -> ... as a result. The only solution, in my opinion, is not to try to force small boys to be unnaturally still. Every single ADHD-diagnosed kid I've worked with has benefited enormous just from hard physical exercise - running around, walking long distances, anything to stop the energy and frustration building up in them.

Good luck!


he's 7... and i have no intention of medicating him unless he asks for it, and since i haven't even talked to him about a medicine option, i don't suspect he will learn about it for a while, which is part of my plan... he gets frustrated, and often cries because he wants to sit still in class and wants to participate properly, but he comes home and cries about it on a regular basis that he got in trouble for having an outburst in class...

My heart breaks for him every time too... but i also believe that he needs to be conditioned into some self control... it's frustrating now, but without conditioning and instilling some self control, he would as bad as the kid of someone else i know, whose hyper outbursts go completely unchecked and uncontrolled by his parents and it makes it seem like he has a worse condition than just adhd... my wife thinks he has tourrette's and i explained to her, no, because when he's sitting in front of the TV playing video games he's basically perfectly quiet and behaving and you almost wouldn't know he was even there... which of course is the parent's solution to keeping him under control... they are giving the crack addict crack to placate him instead of instilling self control...

But as far as my son goes... he doesn't WANT to have outbursts, he knows he gets in trouble, and he gets really upset with himself that it happens. I don't want to tell his teacher that he may be adhd because of the same attitude among teachers that you see here: "Oh it's not a real condition" "Oh you're one of THOSE parents who want to justify his bad behavior" "Why don't you put him on something for it if he is?"

He might benefit from exercise for his hyper activeness, but unless that exercise is mentally stimulating, he will get bored and stop and want to go do something else... And the school isn't going to give him 3 hours of dodgeball just so he will sit still when it comes time to sit and do math practice or quiet reading time...
 
2013-01-28 08:22:26 AM  

SquiggsIN: optikeye: SquiggsIN: It's in the water and food. Environmental toxins DO cause problems despite the fact that the FDA is bribed with billions to keep approving whatever big business can cut into the supply chain.

I think water is much, much better, and far more controlled and safer in today's world than it was in the 1960, 50, 40s. Before the EPA was enacted.

keep thinking that


Show me some proof.

As a chemist who analyzes drinking water (including his own for fun), I can verify that the drinking water I consume (and most of our client customers consume) is clean. I even checked for drug residues and metabolites, which no regulatory agencies yet have MCL's for. In fact, during multiple analyses by GC-MS using 20ml purges (Method 524.3) and semivolatile extractions (Method 525.3) I went and searched the spectra of every damned peak in range and didn't find anything remotely interesting. Heck, I even ran some ECD work and found no halogenateds. Just humic substances. For inorganics, I went to ICP-MS by method 200.7 and didn't find anything inconsistent with naturally occurring trace elements. Bacteriologically, there wasn't anything unusual. So, unless you've been running some wacky ultra-low LOD work and looking at femtomolar concentrations, I don't see any rational grounds for saying it's something in the water. Even then, at those levels, the phthalates leaching out of the containers you contaminated the water with be an issue. Then of course none of our clients fluoridate their water.

So, if you're concerned that the gubbamint is poisoning your vital essence, look at the food.
 
2013-01-28 08:24:19 AM  

cherryl taggart: We had a kid tested one time for learning disabilities. Test results showed the kid was of average intelligence, with no significant difficulties noted. We were then told to get a full medical work up on the kid. Said kid had levels of hormones consistent with onset of puberty, which have a known history of increased moodiness, rebellion to authority, risk taking behavior, etc. However, when we elected to continue with non-pharmacological behavior management, the 'professionals' were shocked.

Kid was a pain in the neck, and that kid's puberty was hell on everyone in our house. But, I'm still disgusted at the amount of grief we caught from doctors and teachers about non-drugging the kid.

I'm sure there are kids that would benefit from some kind of chemical rebalance, but it can't possibly be as high as the stats indicate currently.


Yeah. Those dumb "professionals." They think they know what's good and bad for kids just because they spent years in school engaged in rigorous academic study of "science." But did any of them bother to ask random assholes what their half baked hunches are? Their vague "feelings" that the number of kids who could benefit from medication can't possibly be that high?

No, not one. So what the hell do they know. Don't medicate your kid just because multiple doctors and teachers say he needs it. You know best. Not some ivory tower eggheads and their "stats." So f*ck'em.
 
2013-01-28 08:25:48 AM  

stratagos: ambercat: Human beings aren't wired to spend their formative years sitting still in one position for hours, reading things, listening to someone talk about things they mostly don't care about, then filling in little bubbles about other things they mostly don't care about. Why is it a surprise some people aren't good at it? In modern society it may be a 'disorder' because it makes it harder for you to sit quietly in your cubicle and do paperwork, but I'm not sure it's a defect. For most of the time humans have been humans, they spent their time moving around, doing multiple tasks in a sensory rich environment where they needed to be alert to many different things. If you focused in too tightly on one specific repetitive task you might miss whatever was sneaking up behind you to kill you.

It was also acceptable to react to the "other" by hitting it with a rock.



4.bp.blogspot.com

Still approves of this method.
 
2013-01-28 08:26:09 AM  
Well I'll be damned..........in my ten years on here, I never thought I'd see such an actual INTELLECTUAL, THOUGHT OUT discussion like this on here. Well played, all parties involved.
 
2013-01-28 08:27:52 AM  
Huh, wut? Too many words
 
2013-01-28 08:30:00 AM  

PrinceOfPersia: But for kids... fark the medication, they can handle sports or games.


I used to run all-day events for children involving very careful attention to detail - they were soldering together circuit boards. I very soon learned that sending them all out of the building every hour or so with instructions to "run around like loonies" for five minutes improved their behaviour enormously, and also reduced the smell of charred flesh with otherwise results from thirty children using soldering irons together ...
 
2013-01-28 08:34:13 AM  

CeroX: he's 7... and i have no intention of medicating him unless he asks for it, and since i haven't even talked to him about a medicine option, i don't suspect he will learn about it for a while, which is part of my plan... he gets frustrated, and often cries because he wants to sit still in class and wants to participate properly, but he comes home and cries about it on a regular basis that he got in trouble for having an outburst in class...


I suspect that he's just being a seven year old boy, or one type of seven year old boy. A few boys are ready to sit still in class at 5 and a few of them still have difficulty doing it at 8. And if you're not ready, all the persuading, threatening and coaxing in the world won't help. All you get is a child who cries because he's upset about something which just isn't his fault.

The good news is that he'll almost certainly find things getting easier and easier as time goes on. Providing he hasn't already been characterised, and characterised himself, as "the bad boy". Been there, done that.
 
2013-01-28 08:36:27 AM  
mittromneysdog - Yeah. Those dumb "professionals." They think they know what's good and bad for kids just because they spent years in school engaged in rigorous academic study of "science." partying their butts off because mummy and daddy could afford to send them to college and when you give a college $65,000 you are gonna get a 'shingle' whether you actually learned anything or not. But did any of them bother to ask random assholes what their half baked hunches are? Their vague "feelings" that the number of kids who could benefit from medication can't possibly be that high?

No, not one. So what the hell do they know. Don't medicate your kid just because multiple doctors and teachers are paid to say he needs it. You know best. Not some ivory tower eggheads bought paper waving frat boy that is on the take from Big Pharma and their "stats." So f*ck'em.


FTFY
 
2013-01-28 08:38:01 AM  

PrinceOfPersia: It's a massive shame that the thread looks like it does right now. Plenty of people screaming that Big Pharma invented the condition and that some anecdotal experiences with snotty-nosed little kids with extremely poor parents being labelled with the condition disproves the entire condition's existence, carefully skirting the fact that it exists on adults, and the amount of extremely famous and successful adults that have come out as having ADHD. Are we saying these folk are using the label as an excuse for their failure? They haven't failed by my measure.

The Boobies was the sound of an emotional, angry post from someone all too used to being told they're an idiot and their condition is made up, and it's appropriate that even on Fark, where you can find at least some discussion and understanding for disorders like body dysphoria and transsexualism, is treated with such scorn.

Actual science recognises the condition, and in the latest DSM-V, it is still there, but has been refined and redefined, not eliminated, into a spectrum condition. I really don't want to share a label that so many associate with a either a children's disease, an American over-medication hoax, a crux for failure or a drug-seeker's 'disease' and I ESPECIALLY don't like taking the *pre-existing* and not made for purpose medications for it, as they have such a bad reputation and they have unpleasant side effects. I don't like collecting that medication at the pharmacy any more than you like the idea of someone using it for treatment.

Let me tell you what it's like - you cannot put your attention where you want it; it goes where it pleases, usually on the most interesting thing at the time. Imagine having to do something monotonous, tedious or otherwise extremely dull, but extremely important. You know full well that your life will be easier when you complete the task in good time, that you can continue to provide for yourself and your loved one if you apply yourself, that you will contin ...


Thank you. As someone who has spent my entire life fighting with ADD, I appreciate it when others understand what it is like.
 
2013-01-28 08:42:32 AM  

mittromneysdog: Yeah. Those dumb "professionals." They think they know what's good and bad for kids just because they spent years in school engaged in rigorous academic study of "science." But did any of them bother to ask random assholes what their half baked hunches are? Their vague "feelings" that the number of kids who could benefit from medication can't possibly be that high?


If only medical professionals could agree about this. Across Scotland, the variation in Ritalin prescription rates for school-age children varies between health authorities by a factor of ten. The high-prescribers think the low prescribers are under prescribing and the low prescribers think the high prescribers are over prescribing. Meanwhile, if you live in Glasgow you know that your child is ten times more likely to be given drugs for ADHD than his cousin in Dundee.

No, not one. So what the hell do they know. Don't medicate your kid just because multiple doctors and teachers say he needs it. You know best. Not some ivory tower eggheads and their "stats." So f*ck'em.

When you have a hammer, everything looks like a nail. Giving a child Ritalin is hell of a lot easier than arranging CBT, parenting support and fixing the problems with the school system, just as it's a hell of a lot easier to give a depressed patient a repeat prescription for diazepam than it is to sort out the dreadful housing, abusive partner and unemployment that are actually causing her depression.

TL;DR: Behaviour problems are very rarely medical in origin, so medical treatment, no matter how well intentioned, is very rarely the answer.
 
2013-01-28 08:43:10 AM  

payattention: mittromneysdog - Yeah. Those dumb "professionals." They think they know what's good and bad for kids just because they spent years in school engaged in rigorous academic study of "science." partying their butts off because mummy and daddy could afford to send them to college and when you give a college $65,000 you are gonna get a 'shingle' whether you actually learned anything or not. But did any of them bother to ask random assholes what their half baked hunches are? Their vague "feelings" that the number of kids who could benefit from medication can't possibly be that high?

No, not one. So what the hell do they know. Don't medicate your kid just because multiple doctors and teachers are paid to say he needs it. You know best. Not some ivory tower eggheads bought paper waving frat boy that is on the take from Big Pharma and their "stats." So f*ck'em.

FTFY


To be clear, she said "doctors" and "teachers" gave her grief for not medicating the kid. So we're talking at least two of each. And the way she discusses it, it sounds like there was a whole community of them. You're saying that among this group of educated, licensed professionals, there wasn't a single one who tried hard in school, took his professional responsibilities seriously, and wasn't on the take.

Like I said. You know best. Not them.
 
2013-01-28 08:43:58 AM  

payattention: FTFY


Q. What do you call the medical student who gets the lowest passing grade in his year?

A. Doctor.
 
2013-01-28 08:45:51 AM  
I used to drink so I'd be like everyone else.
 
2013-01-28 08:47:12 AM  

mittromneysdog: To be clear, she said "doctors" and "teachers" gave her grief for not medicating the kid.


Lazy teachers don't want to take the time and trouble to change what they do to suit the lively kids. They want them drugged into quiet obedience.
 
2013-01-28 08:48:28 AM  

orbister: If only medical professionals could agree about this.


As I said in post just above this: a minimum of two physicians and two teachers told her her kid needed medication. The way she talks about it, it sounds like there were even more. That's a pretty solid concurrence of professional opinion.
 
2013-01-28 08:49:18 AM  
ADD is no laughing matter. My knuckles were actually bloody by the time I beat ADD out of my kid.
 
2013-01-28 08:49:47 AM  

orbister: mittromneysdog: To be clear, she said "doctors" and "teachers" gave her grief for not medicating the kid.

Lazy teachers don't want to take the time and trouble to change what they do to suit the lively kids. They want them drugged into quiet obedience.


Right. So of this group of four educated, licensed professionals, not a one was worth a damn. I gotcha.
 
2013-01-28 08:53:36 AM  

mittromneysdog: As I said in post just above this: a minimum of two physicians and two teachers told her her kid needed medication. The way she talks about it, it sounds like there were even more. That's a pretty solid concurrence of professional opinion.


She may as well have consulted a tree surgeon or two as well, since their knowledge and training in childhood behavioural issues is about as comprehensive as that of most doctors.

Shall I tell you the story of the friends of mine who were advised by several doctors, including a child intensive care consultant, that they should switch the machines off and let their daughter die because she was hopelessly brain damaged. And of how they refused, because they disagreed. And how, after a week of stand-off, it turned out that she was simply suffering from a very rare side effect of a drug she was taking, and that when the dosage of that drug was halved she recovered without any ill effects or brain damage within two hours?
 
2013-01-28 08:56:33 AM  

mittromneysdog: Right. So of this group of four educated, licensed professionals, not a one was worth a damn. I gotcha.


How much training do licensed teachers get in the pharmacology of amphetamines?

How much training do licensed doctors get in child development and education?
 
2013-01-28 08:57:25 AM  

orbister: mittromneysdog: As I said in post just above this: a minimum of two physicians and two teachers told her her kid needed medication. The way she talks about it, it sounds like there were even more. That's a pretty solid concurrence of professional opinion.

She may as well have consulted a tree surgeon or two as well, since their knowledge and training in childhood behavioural issues is about as comprehensive as that of most doctors.

Shall I tell you the story of the friends of mine who were advised by several doctors, including a child intensive care consultant, that they should switch the machines off and let their daughter die because she was hopelessly brain damaged. And of how they refused, because they disagreed. And how, after a week of stand-off, it turned out that she was simply suffering from a very rare side effect of a drug she was taking, and that when the dosage of that drug was halved she recovered without any ill effects or brain damage within two hours?


www.digitalmusicinsider.com
 
2013-01-28 08:59:52 AM  

Resident Muslim: I've seen many kids with ADHD.
They cannot focus on ANYTHING* for more than a few minutes.

* this excludes iPads, video games and cartoon channels which miraculously they can focus on for hours at a time


Seriously, part of the diagnostic criteria should be to have the kid play a video game. If they can sit still and focus perfectly on that, they don't have ADHD. Trust me, if you honestly have a condition that makes it impossible to concentrate and stay still (bipolar disorder in my case), you can't concentrate on anything, no matter how interesting it is. I can play video games for maybe 15 minutes (time to pause and do something else), can't write a reply (hehe) without going through a playlist on iTunes, and I haven't sat through a movie in probably 15 years.

ADHD is real and is very debilitating to people who have it. But when you have a mental or neurological condition like it, you can't just turn it off and on based on what's interesting to you. It doesn't work that way. I wish it did.
 
2013-01-28 09:01:13 AM  

PrinceOfPersia: Let me tell you what it's like - you cannot put your attention where you want it; it goes where it pleases, usually on the most interesting thing at the time. Imagine having to do something monotonous, tedious or otherwise extremely dull, but extremely important. You know full well that your life will be easier when you complete the task in good time, that you can continue to provide for yourself and your loved one if you apply yourself, that you will continue to build your future. Now imagine not being able to emotionally connect with that future image of yourself and your attention instead judges the task as inferior to pretty much everything else. All other people can tell you is that you need to stop being a child and think of your future and just man up and get it over with.


It can be even worse than that.

I was diagnosed with ADHD at 26. It took about two months of regular weekly sessions before the psychiatrist was willing to diagnose, so it wasn't rushed to judgement; we went back through all my school records, and almost every report card had something along the lines of "can't sit still" or "difficulty paying attention" tucked in there. It never got put together because my dad worked in government, and we kept moving around, so any given school board only had me for a year or two, no pattern was recognized. I'm only saying this because it wasn't a case where I developed ADHD as an adult, which doesn't happen; I'd just managed to skate by just enough up to that point.

The trigger for me seeking help was working on my honours thesis. This was a paper in a field I loved, whose subject I got to pick from pretty much whatever I liked. I really, really liked the material. Interest was not an issue. And yet, I'd still find myself playing Minesweeper or Solitaire for, literally, hours, while mentally screaming at myself to get to work, and even though I was bored silly. I couldn't even stop playing the stupid game to watch a movie or play a better game.

ADHD isn't really a lack of focus. It's a lack of control over focus. You can't think to yourself "I need to focus on this", and then do so. And the corollary to the scatterbrained lack of focus is the dynamic of hyperfocus, which is exactly what it sounds like.

Now, with medication (just caffeine, for me) and some behavioural therapy, I can usually manage my focus, and can control a hyperfocus often enough that it's a boon more than a pain. If I'm hyperfocusing, I can sit down and write for a good 4+ hours without deviation or break, and I won't notice the time go by or anything else going on around me, not even the usual stretch-your-legs moments most people have in that kind of time. I don't consider ADHD a negative, but it needs to be managed. And it's difficult describing the symptoms, because inevitably people say "hey, I do that too sometimes". Most mental disorders are defined by the prevalence of symptoms. Everyone gets distracted occasionally. People with ADHD get distracted constantly; when you say "just suck it up and focus", they are literally unable to do that. Dismissing it on those grouds is kind of like dismissing the voices a schizophrenic is describing because you sometimes hear your conscience tell you what to do, too.
 
2013-01-28 09:02:46 AM  
She may as well have consulted a tree surgeon or two as well, since their knowledge and training in childhood behavioural issues is about as comprehensive as that of most doctors.

Agreed. So therefore any random asshole knows just as much about childhood behavioral issues as any given two trained, licensed physicians (end tone of irony here).

Of course, she also said she took the kid in for disability evaluation. Which strongly suggests there was a reason she did this in the first place. Her discussion of "risk taking" behaviors, moodiness, and rebellion suggests the catalyzing issue was behavioral. Which means the physicians involved here were--wait for it--childhood behavior specialists.

Shall I tell you the story of the friends of mine who were advised by several doctors, including a child intensive care consultant, that they should switch the machines off and let their daughter die because she was hopelessly brain damaged. And of how they refused, because they disagreed. And how, after a week of stand-off, it turned out that she was simply suffering from a very rare side effect of a drug she was taking, and that when the dosage of that drug was halved she recovered without any ill effects or brain damage within two hours?

Only if I can tell you the story of a family I knew who also didn't trust those eggheaded "doctors" and all their "science." Their kid came down with a life threatening but easily treatable condition. The "professionals" told them to medicate. But they knew better than the devil's brood. They prayed and prayed and prayed, but didn't medicate. No sir.

Mysteriously, the kid died anyway.

Now those worthless child killers are in prison where they belong.
 
2013-01-28 09:04:10 AM  
What? You mean bombarding kids with overstimulating forms of entertainment for 7-8 hours a day means they won't learn how to concentrate and focus? Imagine that.
 
2013-01-28 09:05:29 AM  

Skr: A Cure for ADD?


if it aint pills i'm not interested, i aint got time to raise kids, let the govt. and scienticians handle it with magic pills
 
2013-01-28 09:10:12 AM  

mittromneysdog: So therefore any random asshole knows just as much about childhood behavioral issues as any given two trained, licensed physicians (end tone of irony here).


How much training, precisely, do you think physicians get in child development?
 
2013-01-28 09:11:49 AM  

mittromneysdog: Only if I can tell you the story of a family I knew who also didn't trust those eggheaded "doctors" and all their "science." Their kid came down with a life threatening but easily treatable condition. The "professionals" told them to medicate.


You'll note that my friends insisted that medical treatment be continued.
 
2013-01-28 09:15:20 AM  

orbister: How much training do licensed teachers get in the pharmacology of amphetamines?


How much training do random assholes kid in childhood behavior issues? Or the pharmacology of amphetamines? And anyway, given that this is an ADHD thread, and given what we know about the child's moodiness, rebellion, and risk taking behaviors, it sounds like the kid's symptoms here mimicked ADHD. So it's somehwat there that there are non-amphetamine treatments for ADHD.

How much training do licensed doctors get in child development and education?

The childhood behavior specialists involved in this case surely had extensive training in child development, and the pharmacology of amphetamine and non-amphetamine treatments for childhood behavior problems. And though I don't know the details, I assure you that teachers in most places actually do get some training in identifying symptoms of common childhood disabilities. Obviously, they're not qualified to diagnose. But they probably know more about them than random assholes.

But I love the fact that you place the childhood behavior credentials of random assholes above those even of non-specialist physicians and teachers. That's awesome.
 
2013-01-28 09:19:55 AM  

mittromneysdog: How much training do random assholes kid in childhood behavior issues? Or the pharmacology of amphetamines? And anyway, given that this is an ADHD thread, and given what we know about the child's moodiness, rebellion, and risk taking behaviors, it sounds like the kid's symptoms here mimicked ADHD. So it's somehwat there that there are non-amphetamine treatments for ADHD.


Let me try this one again.

How much training do random assholes get in childhood behavior issues? Or the pharmacology of amphetamines? And anyway, given that this is an ADHD thread, and given what we know about the child's moodiness, rebellion, and risk taking behaviors, it sounds like the kid's symptoms here mimicked ADHD. So it's somewhat relevant that there are non-amphetamine treatments for ADHD.
 
2013-01-28 09:20:01 AM  

mittromneysdog: orbister: If only medical professionals could agree about this.

As I said in post just above this: a minimum of two physicians and two teachers told her her kid needed medication. The way she talks about it, it sounds like there were even more. That's a pretty solid concurrence of professional opinion.


There are tests. Were they done? Without them, "professional opinion" doesn't matter.
 
2013-01-28 09:21:11 AM  
How many articles a week are we going to have about ADHD?
 
2013-01-28 09:21:30 AM  

mittromneysdog: How much training do random assholes get in childhood behavior issues? Or the pharmacology of amphetamines?


To be fair, certified teachers actually do get some training in child and adolescent psychology, of which behavior issues are a part. However, last I checked this did not include psychopharmacology.
 
2013-01-28 09:21:37 AM  

mittromneysdog: But I love the fact that you place the childhood behavior credentials of random assholes above those even of non-specialist physicians and teachers.


I trust caring and intelligent parents to make informed decisions on behalf of their children, and not accept the quick-and-easy buck-passing of professionals operating outwith their areas of expertise. I do not, unlike you, characterise these parents as "random assholes".

Now, could you explain why trained medical professionals are ten times more likely to prescribe Ritalin for ADHD in Glasgow than their equally trained colleagues in Dundee?
 
2013-01-28 09:23:56 AM  

mittromneysdog: mittromneysdog: How much training do random assholes kid in childhood behavior issues? Or the pharmacology of amphetamines? And anyway, given that this is an ADHD thread, and given what we know about the child's moodiness, rebellion, and risk taking behaviors, it sounds like the kid's symptoms here mimicked ADHD. So it's somehwat there that there are non-amphetamine treatments for ADHD.

Let me try this one again.

How much training do random assholes get in childhood behavior issues? Or the pharmacology of amphetamines? And anyway, given that this is an ADHD thread, and given what we know about the child's moodiness, rebellion, and risk taking behaviors, it sounds like the kid's symptoms here mimicked ADHD. So it's somewhat relevant that there are non-amphetamine treatments for ADHD.


Yes, it's called Strattera, it's a non-stimulant medication for ADHD and it doesn't work. Especially if you have already been on stimulant ADHD meds prior to using it.

Plus, if for some reason you can't get the pill down all the way and it get stuck in your esophagus, it will burn for days and hurt like hell whenever you swallow food.
 
2013-01-28 09:24:55 AM  

Millennium: To be fair, certified teachers actually do get some training in child and adolescent psychology, of which behavior issues are a part. However, last I checked this did not include psychopharmacology.


Indeed. So you have a bunch of people who know about kids but don't know about drugs and a bunch of people who know about drugs but don't know about kids. Neither side is in a position to take a fully informed decision.

It is also relevant to Mr Dog's position that there is huge disagreement in the medical profession about the use of drugs to treat ADHD. It's not like insulin for diabetes or l-dopa for Parkinson's.
 
2013-01-28 09:27:43 AM  

Millennium: There are tests. Were they done? Without them, "professional opinion" doesn't matter.


She took the kid in for a disability evaluation. She says the doctors found the kid of average intelligence, but "no difficulties." I'm inclined to infer that they administered diagnostic tests.
 
2013-01-28 09:32:25 AM  

Crackers Are a Family Food: Resident Muslim: I've seen many kids with ADHD.
They cannot focus on ANYTHING* for more than a few minutes.

* this excludes iPads, video games and cartoon channels which miraculously they can focus on for hours at a time

Seriously, part of the diagnostic criteria should be to have the kid play a video game. If they can sit still and focus perfectly on that, they don't have ADHD. Trust me, if you honestly have a condition that makes it impossible to concentrate and stay still (bipolar disorder in my case), you can't concentrate on anything, no matter how interesting it is. I can play video games for maybe 15 minutes (time to pause and do something else), can't write a reply (hehe) without going through a playlist on iTunes, and I haven't sat through a movie in probably 15 years.

ADHD is real and is very debilitating to people who have it. But when you have a mental or neurological condition like it, you can't just turn it off and on based on what's interesting to you. It doesn't work that way. I wish it did.


Sounds like the only think you know about and i should trust you on is bipolar, i have ADD, my wife's best friend is horribly ADHD... the condition is chemical and triggered by stimuli or a lack thereof... I get treated for it, and it was explained to me pretty clearly. I tried to clarify it in a post earlier, it's a side effect of ADD called Hyper-Focus... It's a chemical reaction in the brain as a reaction to stimulus. The right kind of stimulus causes the brain to start producing the chemicals that allow the brain to stay focus on task, but because the brain of an ADD person isn't used to those sorts of chemicals, the result is overcompensation. The person then becomes entranced by the stimulus, there are various forms of stimuli that can cause this, but they mostly have to do with small simple challenges with a pay off or reward system... TV/movies have it, books can have it, though nothing compared to games...

Like i said, my doc went through and explained it to me simply and clearly, and i think other people here who are also diagnosed can agree with me here.
 
2013-01-28 09:35:02 AM  

orbister: I trust caring and intelligent parents to make informed decisions on behalf of their children, and not accept the quick-and-easy buck-passing of professionals operating outwith their areas of expertise. I do not, unlike you, characterise these parents as "random assholes".


Except the doctors here were childhood behavior specialists. And remember, we're talking about a minimum of two of them who recommended medication. We're talking here about someone with the handle "cheryl taggart," a "good guy" character in Atlas Shrugged. So we're dealing here with an Ayn Rand fan, not a caring, intelligent parent (snark).

Now, could you explain why trained medical professionals are ten times more likely to prescribe Ritalin for ADHD in Glasgow than their equally trained colleagues in Dundee?

Several possible reasons. One of them could be that kids in Glasgow get ADHD at ten times the rate as kids in Dundee. It could be that doctors in Glasgow have received specialized training in identifying ADHD, but that the doctors in Dundee have not. It could be that parents in Glasgow are better informed about ADHD, and therefore more likely to bring kids with symptoms to the doctor for it.
 
2013-01-28 09:35:33 AM  
Paging STEVEROCKSON
 
2013-01-28 09:36:43 AM  

Millennium: mittromneysdog: How much training do random assholes get in childhood behavior issues? Or the pharmacology of amphetamines?

To be fair, certified teachers actually do get some training in child and adolescent psychology, of which behavior issues are a part. However, last I checked this did not include psychopharmacology.


Yes, I agree. It looks like you're disagreeing with me here, but we seem to share the same view on this point. Maybe you misunderstood my post.
 
2013-01-28 09:36:56 AM  

Sid_6.7: F*ck you, subby, and anyone who makes fun of this.

I an adult with ADD. I was diagnosed halfway through high school. I went on meds and went from a 2.66 GPA to a 4.0. If not for the diagnosis and the meds I would have barely graduated, would never have gone to college, and would, over all, have a vastly sh*ttier standard of living...


Really? From the tone of your comment I would have guessed you were 13.
 
2013-01-28 09:48:40 AM  

mittromneysdog: Except the doctors here were childhood behavior specialists.


Um, no. That's your inference, unsupported by any evidence.

Several possible reasons. One of them could be that kids in Glasgow get ADHD at ten times the rate as kids in Dundee. It could be that doctors in Glasgow have received specialized training in identifying ADHD, but that the doctors in Dundee have not. It could be that parents in Glasgow are better informed about ADHD, and therefore more likely to bring kids with symptoms to the doctor for it.

You haven't quite followed my point. Given the diagnosis of ADHD, doctors in Glasgow are ten times more likely to prescribe Ritalin than doctors in Dundee. I find it interesting, by the way, that none of your possible reasons involves the possibility that the doctors in Dundee are right.
 
2013-01-28 09:58:00 AM  

ManOfTeal: Yes, it's called Strattera, it's a non-stimulant medication for ADHD and it doesn't work. Especially if you have already been on stimulant ADHD meds prior to using it.

Plus, if for some reason you can't get the pill down all the way and it get stuck in your esophagus, it will burn for days and hurt like hell whenever you swallow food.



It worked (And seems to work) for me, and I was on stimulants before switching. (Was part of the last stages of the drug study for a bit, too.) . That said, I seem to recall A) It took a *long* time to start working (As in, had to build up over time), and B), it felt like it worked... 'differently', if that makes sense. Like, when I was on Ritalin, it felt like I was *forced* to focus, but now it's more of a choice?

Bah, I'm not explaining how it feels mentally very well. It does seem to work *vastly* differently from person to person, though. (My mother felt like she was 'watching herself' and discontinued immediately. ... ADD runs strong in this family.)

To be fair, I suppose it is possibly the placebo effect, and I've simply developed much better coping mechanisms over the years. A sample size of one is not really evidence one way or the other, so I can't say "Oh yes it totally works".

Regardless: heck yes on the second one.
 
2013-01-28 10:03:55 AM  
I suffer from a combination of IHE syndome and TSIB disease. IHE, I Hate Everything, is classified by hating everything. TSIB, This shiat Is Boring, is classified by finding everything boring and uninteresting.
 
2013-01-28 10:15:41 AM  

Felgraf: ManOfTeal: Yes, it's called Strattera, it's a non-stimulant medication for ADHD and it doesn't work. Especially if you have already been on stimulant ADHD meds prior to using it.

Plus, if for some reason you can't get the pill down all the way and it get stuck in your esophagus, it will burn for days and hurt like hell whenever you swallow food.


It worked (And seems to work) for me, and I was on stimulants before switching. (Was part of the last stages of the drug study for a bit, too.) . That said, I seem to recall A) It took a *long* time to start working (As in, had to build up over time), and B), it felt like it worked... 'differently', if that makes sense. Like, when I was on Ritalin, it felt like I was *forced* to focus, but now it's more of a choice?

Bah, I'm not explaining how it feels mentally very well. It does seem to work *vastly* differently from person to person, though. (My mother felt like she was 'watching herself' and discontinued immediately. ... ADD runs strong in this family.)

To be fair, I suppose it is possibly the placebo effect, and I've simply developed much better coping mechanisms over the years. A sample size of one is not really evidence one way or the other, so I can't say "Oh yes it totally works".

Regardless: heck yes on the second one.


I tried Strattera twice, once for 6 months after having been on Adderall for about 7 years. Then, after being on nothing at all for about 18 months, I tried it the second time and was on it for over a year because I felt I needed something. I would always find myself questioning if it was working, then Vyvanse came out and I switched to that. Haven't looked back since.
 
2013-01-28 10:19:00 AM  

CeroX: Sounds like the only think you know about and i should trust you on is bipolar, i have ADD, my wife's best friend is horribly ADHD... the condition is chemical and triggered by stimuli or a lack thereof... I get treated for it, and it was explained to me pretty clearly. I tried to clarify it in a post earlier, it's a side effect of ADD called Hyper-Focus... It's a chemical reaction in the brain as a reaction to stimulus. The right kind of stimulus causes the brain to start producing the chemicals that allow the brain to stay focus on task, but because the brain of an ADD person isn't used to those sorts of chemicals, the result is overcompensation. The person then becomes entranced by the stimulus, there are various forms of stimuli that can cause this, but they mostly have to do with small simple challenges with a pay off or reward system... TV/movies have it, books can have it, though nothing compared to games...

Like i sa ...


Okay, I think I have a better understanding of it now. Like if something offers a lot of quick-moving stimulus (like a video game), the brain can focus better on it, but if there isn't enough of a stimulus, it just goes nuts. That makes sense - thanks for the explanation. I always assumed it was a lack of focus - not an excess of it that just can't be centered.
 
2013-01-28 10:29:04 AM  

Crackers Are a Family Food: Resident Muslim: I've seen many kids with ADHD.
They cannot focus on ANYTHING* for more than a few minutes.

* this excludes iPads, video games and cartoon channels which miraculously they can focus on for hours at a time

Seriously, part of the diagnostic criteria should be to have the kid play a video game. If they can sit still and focus perfectly on that, they don't have ADHD. Trust me, if you honestly have a condition that makes it impossible to concentrate and stay still (bipolar disorder in my case), you can't concentrate on anything, no matter how interesting it is. I can play video games for maybe 15 minutes (time to pause and do something else), can't write a reply (hehe) without going through a playlist on iTunes, and I haven't sat through a movie in probably 15 years.

ADHD is real and is very debilitating to people who have it. But when you have a mental or neurological condition like it, you can't just turn it off and on based on what's interesting to you. It doesn't work that way. I wish it did.


Your restlessness comes from within grasshopper.

Remember, the mind, like the pool, if not still does not reflect...

The truth WILL set you free.


/welcome to the real world Neo.
 
zez
2013-01-28 10:53:08 AM  
I have 2 boys, an 8 year old and a 4 year old. The oldest has ADHD and we've always kinda known. He can't stay focused on anything, talks non-stop but hardly ever finishes a thought and had to be jumping or swinging his arms all the time, but if you give hm a book he will sit still for hours and hours in perfect silence.

The 4 year old is all boy, running climbing jumping but he doesn't act at all like his brother.

So yes, there is a difference between normal active boy and one with ADHD.
 
2013-01-28 10:58:47 AM  
way farking over-diagnosed. They tried to tell me I have it, and I finally figured something out. If it interests me, I stick with it. If it's a boring meeting or someone telling me about the square root of pi - I space it out. Example: boss says I want this done by Tuesday - too bad, so sad. I won't remember or care. If my daughter says she has a dance recital at 6:00 p.m. on Feb 9 - no problem, it's in stone. Once I figured that out, I realized I have to write things down that I don't care about. Problem solved. No meds, no counseling. All I needed was a tablet PC with calendar software and the desire to do just enough to keep the boring crap in my life organized. One of the docs I used to see said it like this (paraphrasing): If you can go to the movie theater and watch a movie you really love all the way through with no problems but get bored watching a chick-flick, you don't have ADD. I can sit down and watch The Lord of the Rings (all three) in one day, but can't get 15 minutes into How to Lose a Guy in 10 Days. That's been my litmus test ever since.
 
2013-01-28 11:09:33 AM  

mittromneysdog: Millennium: mittromneysdog: How much training do random assholes get in childhood behavior issues? Or the pharmacology of amphetamines?

To be fair, certified teachers actually do get some training in child and adolescent psychology, of which behavior issues are a part. However, last I checked this did not include psychopharmacology.

Yes, I agree. It looks like you're disagreeing with me here, but we seem to share the same view on this point. Maybe you misunderstood my post.


It seems to me that we share similar viewpoints to a degree, but we're not in agreement. You speak of people studying "science," but it has been a long time since anyone had no other title than "scientist": the discipline now consists of a staggering number of highly-specialized fields. The professionals you speak of all had some overlap with the relevant fields (for example, the teachers who had some training in adolescent psychology) but not so many people who were actually in the relevant fields.

The one who actually tested the kid was probably in the relevant field. But this is the one who found "no difficulties." Someone is clearly wrong here, and all else being equal, I'd say the people who didn't run the tests are more likely to be wrong. This doesn't mean that the kid doesn't have behavioral issues, but difficulties with attention and focus can come from many things, and only some of them fall under the category we typically call ADHD. If these teachers and physicians are all crying ADHD but the tests don't show ADHD, then odds are that these "professionals" are barking up the wrong tree: a go-to diagnosis that doesn't actually describe this case, and does no one any favors.

I said that teachers get some training in adolescent psychology, and they do, but only to a limited degree: they are not qualified to diagnose or to suggest particular interventions. The same likely goes for the physicians: this isn't their field. At most, they should have noted that the current treatments aren't working, suggested a different battery of tests, and left it at that.
 
2013-01-28 11:58:45 AM  

orbister: You haven't quite followed my point. Given the diagnosis of ADHD, doctors in Glasgow are ten times more likely to prescribe Ritalin than doctors in Dundee.

orbister: Um, no. That's your inference, unsupported by any evidence.


It is the best inference supported by the evidence provided. Surely this loving and intelligent parent didn't take her child to a podiatrist to deal with moodiness, rebelliousness, and risk taking behavior. When she took her child in for a disability evaluation involving those issues in particular, she would have taken them into appropriate experts. If she didn't, that's not medicine's problem. That's hers.

You haven't quite followed my point.

I followed your words just fine. You failed to explain yourself clearly.

I find it interesting, by the way, that none of your possible reasons involves the possibility that the doctors in Dundee are right.

I find it even more interesting that the idea that the doctors in Glasgow are right is so beyond your ken that you consider a mere prescription disparity as solid evidence for your point, when there are any number of possible reasons for it, even accounting for your moved goalposts. Maybe parents in Glasgow are better able to afford ADHD meds than parents in Dundee. Maybe cases of ADHD in Glasgow are more serious than cases in Dundee. Maybe there is a higher social stigma to ADHD meds in Dundee than in Glasgow. The mere fact that some doctors are more likely to prescribe a medication than others proves almost nothing by itself.
 
2013-01-28 12:16:42 PM  
It seems to me that we share similar viewpoints to a degree, but we're not in agreement.

We agreed that teachers have some training in relevant fields. When I said we agree, I was only referring to that one issue.

You speak of people studying "science," but it has been a long time since anyone had no other title than "scientist": the discipline now consists of a staggering number of highly-specialized fields.

As I explained more clearly later, the doctors involved in this case were more likely than not schooled in relevant fields.You acknowledge that at least one of them surely was.

The one who actually tested the kid was probably in the relevant field. But this is the one who found "no difficulties." Someone is clearly wrong here, and all else being equal, I'd say the people who didn't run the tests are more likely to be wrong. This doesn't mean that the kid doesn't have behavioral issues, but difficulties with attention and focus can come from many things, and only some of them fall under the category we typically call ADHD. If these teachers and physicians are all crying ADHD but the tests don't show ADHD, then odds are that these "professionals" are barking up the wrong tree: a go-to diagnosis that doesn't actually describe this case, and does no one any favors.

Yes, this "no difficulties" issues puzzling. If the child wasn't having difficulties, why did she take him in for a disability evaluation? Then, there's the fact that despite the "no difficulties" this child had, a minimum of four professionals, at least three of whom you acknowledge had at least some relevant training, and two of whom deal with childhood behavioral problems every day of their working lives, recommended medication.

The best inference is that relevant information was left out. It isn't unheard of for doctors to prescribe medicines for symptoms that mimic certain ailments, even if all the diagnostic criteria aren't met. Sometimes they even do it for diagnostic purposes. I.e., "this kid has some symptoms of ADHD, but for some reason he doesn't seem to fit all criteria 100%. Let's see how he responds to medication." I'm not saying this is definitely what happened in this case. I'm suggesting it's one possibility, because I find it implausible that four professionals recommended medication for a child who had literally no difficulties whatsoever.
 
2013-01-28 12:38:35 PM  

PrinceOfPersia: The Boobies was the sound of an emotional, angry post from someone all too used to being told they're an idiot and their condition is made up, and it's appropriate that even on Fark, where you can find at least some discussion and understanding for disorders like body dysphoria and transsexualism, is treated with such scorn.


That. Leave Sid alone.

I have a similar reaction to Farkers who "know" what it's like to have an addiction, and they "know" that it's not real, and they "know" how to cure it.
 
2013-01-28 01:16:02 PM  

mittromneysdog: I find it even more interesting that the idea that the doctors in Glasgow are right is so beyond your ken that you consider a mere prescription disparity as solid evidence for your point, when there are any number of possible reasons for it, even accounting for your moved goalposts.


You really, really don't want to believe that Ritalin is ever over-prescribed, do you? Care to give us a bit of background and explain the reason for that?

Maybe parents in Glasgow are better able to afford ADHD meds than parents in Dundee. Maybe cases of ADHD in Glasgow are more serious than cases in Dundee. Maybe there is a higher social stigma to ADHD meds in Dundee than in Glasgow. The mere fact that some doctors are more likely to prescribe a medication than others proves almost nothing by itself.

It's a ten fold disparity, between two cities with very similar populations and social makeups. Oh, and NHS. Cost of drugs is irrelevant here.
 
2013-01-28 01:19:11 PM  

mittromneysdog: Yes, this "no difficulties" issues puzzling. If the child wasn't having difficulties, why did she take him in for a disability evaluation?


Maybe because she wanted to know whether he had ADHD or if he was just a normal, if lively, boy? It may comes as a surprise to you that many diagnostic tests give negative results, even though someone was concerned enough to run them.

I'm still curious, by the way, to find out why you think teachers are qualified to recommend medication.
 
2013-01-28 03:42:20 PM  

PrinceOfPersia: It's a massive shame that the thread looks like it does right now. Plenty of people screaming that Big Pharma invented the condition and that some anecdotal experiences with snotty-nosed little kids with extremely poor parents being labelled with the condition disproves the entire condition's existence, carefully skirting the fact that it exists on adults, and the amount of extremely famous and successful adults that have come out as having ADHD. Are we saying these folk are using the label as an excuse for their failure? They haven't failed by my measure.

The Boobies was the sound of an emotional, angry post from someone all too used to being told they're an idiot and their condition is made up, and it's appropriate that even on Fark, where you can find at least some discussion and understanding for disorders like body dysphoria and transsexualism, is treated with such scorn.

Actual science recognises the condition, and in the latest DSM-V, it is still there, but has been refined and redefined, not eliminated, into a spectrum condition. I really don't want to share a label that so many associate with a either a children's disease, an American over-medication hoax, a crux for failure or a drug-seeker's 'disease' and I ESPECIALLY don't like taking the *pre-existing* and not made for purpose medications for it, as they have such a bad reputation and they have unpleasant side effects. I don't like collecting that medication at the pharmacy any more than you like the idea of someone using it for treatment.

Let me tell you what it's like - you cannot put your attention where you want it; it goes where it pleases, usually on the most interesting thing at the time. Imagine having to do something monotonous, tedious or otherwise extremely dull, but extremely important. You know full well that your life will be easier when you complete the task in good time, that you can continue to provide for yourself and your loved one if you apply yourself, that you will contin ...


Hey I grew up with a sibling still crippled by ADHD in a sense. He's going to be 40 this year and cannot hold a job. Hell, you're lucky if he can hold a coherent conversation with how his mind hops from subject to subject...

That said, and combined with your own descriptions in your post, there are way too many normally disruptive kids out there on drugs they absolutely do not need. Hell I'm a hyper individual. I've often wondered what drug I would have been on as a kid had I been born 10 years later. Like one parent above... teachers and doctors wringing their hands that he wouldn't put his kid on meds. Good for you dad!

Many folks are just saying to take it slow and apply (un)common sense before resorting to pills. Kids are weird critters. They aren't the same minute to minute. Best observe a while to establish a true baseline.

I know what you mean though. My brother's awesome and harrying at the same time for his disconnected presence in this reality...
 
2013-01-29 01:26:48 AM  

PrinceOfPersia: It's a massive shame that the thread looks like it does right now. Plenty of people screaming that Big Pharma invented the condition and that some anecdotal experiences with snotty-nosed little kids with extremely poor parents being labelled with the condition disproves the entire condition's existence, carefully skirting the fact that it exists on adults, and the amount of extremely famous and successful adults that have come out as having ADHD. Are we saying these folk are using the label as an excuse for their failure? They haven't failed by my measure.

The Boobies was the sound of an emotional, angry post from someone all too used to being told they're an idiot and their condition is made up, and it's appropriate that even on Fark, where you can find at least some discussion and understanding for disorders like body dysphoria and transsexualism, is treated with such scorn.

Actual science recognises the condition, and in the latest DSM-V, it is still there, but has been refined and redefined, not eliminated, into a spectrum condition. I really don't want to share a label that so many associate with a either a children's disease, an American over-medication hoax, a crux for failure or a drug-seeker's 'disease' and I ESPECIALLY don't like taking the *pre-existing* and not made for purpose medications for it, as they have such a bad reputation and they have unpleasant side effects. I don't like collecting that medication at the pharmacy any more than you like the idea of someone using it for treatment.

Let me tell you what it's like - you cannot put your attention where you want it; it goes where it pleases, usually on the most interesting thing at the time. Imagine having to do something monotonous, tedious or otherwise extremely dull, but extremely important. You know full well that your life will be easier when you complete the task in good time, that you can continue to provide for yourself and your loved one if you apply yourself, that you will continu ...


Thank you for being the voice of reason I was too pissed off/drunk to be initially.
 

Crackers Are a Family Food: Okay, I think I have a better understanding of it now. Like if something offers a lot of quick-moving stimulus (like a video game), the brain can focus better on it, but if there isn't enough of a stimulus, it just goes nuts. That makes sense - thanks for the explanation. I always assumed it was a lack of focus - not an excess of it that just can't be centered.


For me, I require mental stimulus. Back in high school, before I was diagnosed or medicated, I could spend a solid 3-4 hours focusing on a game of chess, because it was f*cking fascinating. It was stimulating. Sitting in class listening to a teacher regurgitate the sh*t in the text book? Not so much. But, I will note, for "normal" people, listening to a lecture about the crap from the book seemed to be a real goddamn challenge for them.


Stick me in a group situation designed so that the lowest common denominator can keep up and of course my attention drifts. And I end up thinking about something I actually find interesting, like whatever minute details about the latest D&D campaign I'm cooking up. If a speaker is three words into the first sentence of a 10 minutes paragraph about *insert random topic* and I already know what will be said, then I tune it the f*ck out. It is torture not to.

I'm not claiming that every ADD case is like that, but I need something interesting, a genuine challenge, if I am to remain interested. If I am given work that is the mental equivalent of screwing toothpaste caps onto tubes, then I better pray I've taken my meds.
 
2013-01-29 07:38:11 AM  
when i got on ADD meds i definitely spent much more time jacking it. side effects of amphetamines
 
Displayed 118 of 118 comments

View Voting Results: Smartest and Funniest

This thread is archived, and closed to new comments.

Continue Farking
Submit a Link »
On Twitter








In Other Media
  1. Links are submitted by members of the Fark community.

  2. When community members submit a link, they also write a custom headline for the story.

  3. Other Farkers comment on the links. This is the number of comments. Click here to read them.

  4. Click here to submit a link.

Report