If you can read this, either the style sheet didn't load or you have an older browser that doesn't support style sheets. Try clearing your browser cache and refreshing the page.

(Des Moines Register)   It seems children are experiencing more attention disorders in recent yea- just a sec, got a text message....aaaaannnd sent. So what was I saying?   (desmoinesregister.com) divider line 118
    More: Obvious, attention disorders, hyperactivity disorder, child psychiatrist, real self, University of Iowa Hospitals  
•       •       •

2101 clicks; posted to Main » on 28 Jan 2013 at 4:31 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



118 Comments   (+0 »)
   
View Voting Results: Smartest and Funniest

Archived thread

First | « | 1 | 2 | 3 | » | Last | Show all
 
2013-01-28 07:22:18 AM

ThrobblefootSpectre: PrinceOfPersia: You oversimplify the condition.

I think claiming to be more aware of one's surroundings was oversimplifying the condition.


PrinceOfPersia: It is also no longer called ADD, so I would stop using that term as it is a misnomer.

The person I was responding to used that terminology. I was responding likewise.


Fair enough. You'll always get a few people trying to twist their conditions, thoughts etc. into strengths.

You could definitely say I'm observant and would probably do well in a high-stress environment like the old hunter idea that is popularly batted around in ADHD sites as a therapy idea for coming to terms with a different mental makeup, but this 'advantage' is useless in a modern world. I may be observant but I can entirely not notice and forget major details that others find incredible, like missing aspects of people's appearance, their names, major locations, major events happens nearby that I've seen before and other things. To me these are just minor variations on a theme that I've experienced all before, and they're not interesting to me. Nothing about that is an advantage.

I think people trying to twist this thing around into veiled 'I'm more manly and better than you simple farmers' things are doing as much damage to the image of the disorder as the mis-diagnosed kids are. It's wonderful if you can actually apply this to your advantage as the people I linked to a list of before could, but make no mistake - this is a disadvantage, not a gift.
 
2013-01-28 07:28:57 AM

CeroX: PrinceOfPersia: I actually don't think it should be treated in kids.

Sadly, i'm seeing signs in both of my kids that they are add, though slightly different from each other... I'm trying to take what i know about the problems i have, and see if i can work around the condition to reach them and get them to perform better in school. It's been working as far as learning the school material goes, but my son is also hyper, and when he is at school he is easily distracted and his hyper nature make him become a distraction.

Since i've started working with him on a one on one basis, his grades have done a complete 180. The only bad reports we get are from him being a distraction in class. He's explained it to me and it basically boils down to that he physically cannot sit still, it gets to a point where he tries and tries and tries, but then it's like there's a breaking point and he just can't take it any longer and he has an outburst...

My daughter though, just like me, she isn't hyper, she just can't stay focused, even when you are talking directly to her, you lose her mid sentence... But when it comes to something that stimulates her interest, she's very good at it... again, avoiding medication, i've been working with her very closely... it's actually easier with her because she doesn't have that hyperactive nature that's making her buzz around or vibrate in her seat... she loves art, and so i've been promoting her learning through art and other methods...

On a personal note those, it takes everything i have to be able to put that kind of focus on my kids and a lot of times it requires my wife to help me keep focused on task to be able to help my kids keep on task... The reason she doesn't really do it is because she can't connect with them the way i can. I know first hand what they are going through, and i can come up with ways to reach them and help them, my wife on the other hand has no idea and can't make that connection, see the signs, and eventually gets frustr ...


I should probably clarify that I mean it shouldn't be treated in kids with our current diagnostic tools, and even that doesn't sit so well for me as it's a hard break for kids like yours. A proper diagnostic test would be the best possible case. There had been a few indications that you could identify working differences in brain activity with fMRI but that has obviously gone nowhere as it's a ludricrously expensive test for what would be a commonly suspected condition.
 
2013-01-28 07:34:02 AM
I need to get to work so I won't be here for a while. I might return later, but frankly, I don't fancy the chances of the thread remaining civil and I have better things to do than to be sucked into that.
 
2013-01-28 07:34:23 AM
heinrich66 - I think the fact that pharmaceutical industries have developed wonderful pills for dealing with this shows that it is a REAL PROBLEM. They definitely did NOT create this disorder as a way to push billions of dollars worth of pills into every kid they can.

Besides, even if it were a real disorder for some people, it is definitely NOT due to all the brain-warping chemicals being pumped into the environment. It's genetic, so keep taking your pills, microwaving your food in plastic containers, and living next to smokestacks.


And we are done here.

As someone said above, if the real intent were to help those with the disease, I would applaud. But they are working to diagnose everyone with something so they can get you to take their medications which they charge hundreds of percent over what it costs them to make it, and makes them very rich at your expense, even if what they are treating is not exactly what is wrong with you. Yes, there are people out there who really suffer from this, but it is just too easy for a doctor who is 'on the take' from Big Pharma to say that your kid, who is actually a little hyperactive and not really troubled by concentration issues, is 'in fact ADHD and needs these medications'. (that Big Pharma pays me to shove onto the population). If these drugs help you, that is great. But please don't be so naive that you think they do this out of some concern for your welfare. They do this to make money, and they would diagnose their own mother with AIDS if they thought they could get her hooked on whatever new drug they are pushing. And the fact that there are parents out there who go along with this because they just can't deal with little Jimmy being all hyper and running around. (Which is what small kids do. Sorry that darn parenting thing cuts into your glamorous life/amazing career/personal ego time.) I think Zappa said it best:

""The more boring (or zombified with drugs my addition) a child is, the more the parents, when showing off the child, receive adulation for being good parents - because they have a tame child-creature in their house."
 
2013-01-28 07:35:39 AM

CeroX: Since i've started working with him on a one on one basis, his grades have done a complete 180. The only bad reports we get are from him being a distraction in class. He's explained it to me and it basically boils down to that he physically cannot sit still, it gets to a point where he tries and tries and tries, but then it's like there's a breaking point and he just can't take it any longer and he has an outburst...


How old is he, as a matter of interest? I think many boys are simply not ready for the structure of a conventional school class at five, and enter a descending spiral of boredom -> frustration -> misbehaviour -> reprimand -> alienation -> boredom -> ... as a result. The only solution, in my opinion, is not to try to force small boys to be unnaturally still. Every single ADHD-diagnosed kid I've worked with has benefited enormous just from hard physical exercise - running around, walking long distances, anything to stop the energy and frustration building up in them.

Good luck!
 
2013-01-28 07:38:04 AM

payattention: heinrich66 - I think the fact that pharmaceutical industries have developed wonderful pills for dealing with this shows that it is a REAL PROBLEM. They definitely did NOT create this disorder as a way to push billions of dollars worth of pills into every kid they can.

Besides, even if it were a real disorder for some people, it is definitely NOT due to all the brain-warping chemicals being pumped into the environment. It's genetic, so keep taking your pills, microwaving your food in plastic containers, and living next to smokestacks.

And we are done here.

As someone said above, if the real intent were to help those with the disease, I would applaud. But they are working to diagnose everyone with something so they can get you to take their medications which they charge hundreds of percent over what it costs them to make it, and makes them very rich at your expense, even if what they are treating is not exactly what is wrong with you. Yes, there are people out there who really suffer from this, but it is just too easy for a doctor who is 'on the take' from Big Pharma to say that your kid, who is actually a little hyperactive and not really troubled by concentration issues, is 'in fact ADHD and needs these medications'. (that Big Pharma pays me to shove onto the population). If these drugs help you, that is great. But please don't be so naive that you think they do this out of some concern for your welfare. They do this to make money, and they would diagnose their own mother with AIDS if they thought they could get her hooked on whatever new drug they are pushing. And the fact that there are parents out there who go along with this because they just can't deal with little Jimmy being all hyper and running around. (Which is what small kids do. Sorry that darn parenting thing cuts into your glamorous life/amazing career/personal ego time.) I think Zappa said it best:

""The more boring (or zombified with drugs my addition) a child is, the more the parents, when showi ...


But before I leave I will say that I work in a field that isn't directly related to pharmacy, but close enough for me to say...

...this is all true. The proper counter to all of this is scientific studies without biased sponsorship and trial design that can prove the drugs as effective for the condition. That's hard work and your doctor can't be trusted there. Right now, for adult ADHD, there is not a lot of great quality material at all, but there is enough in children to make a case, albeit not very well.

Only you can trust yourself to trust what you take.
 
2013-01-28 07:41:43 AM

PrinceOfPersia: I actually don't think it should be treated in kids


When needed, I think the first line of treatment in children should be exercise. Since even just a few minutes of exercise has been shown to help, and measurably improve academic performance. Jumping right to 24/7 amphetamines for developing brains/bodies has always struck me as a truly remarkably bad idea.
 
2013-01-28 07:46:31 AM

ThrobblefootSpectre: When needed, I think the first line of treatment in children should be exercise. Since even just a few minutes of exercise has been shown to help, and measurably improve academic performance. Jumping right to 24/7 amphetamines for developing brains/bodies has always struck me as a truly remarkably bad idea.


This x 1,000,000,000,000
 
2013-01-28 07:56:39 AM

orbister: ThrobblefootSpectre: When needed, I think the first line of treatment in children should be exercise. Since even just a few minutes of exercise has been shown to help, and measurably improve academic performance. Jumping right to 24/7 amphetamines for developing brains/bodies has always struck me as a truly remarkably bad idea.

This x 1,000,000,000,000


The current line of understanding is that ADHD brains have too low a dopamine level to fully activate the frontal lobes, reducing executive function. The evidence for this is poor, limited to limited fMRI testing and connecting the dots between behaviour, the short-term effectiveness of stimulant drugs and SSNI style drugs, and the fact that burning off excess energy (and increasing brain dopamine) works so well in adults and children both. So, this x 1x5.0^30.

I'm working to replace the medication with excessive exercise, but this is hard for an adult with a desk job. My ideal would be morning exercise or morning cycle/jog to work, something short at my lunchtime and then something of an evening. For unrelated reasons, I do not have that energy and my life would revolve around remaining functional at work. So for now I'm on medication, and it is a crutch. But for kids... fark the medication, they can handle sports or games.

I've got to turn this fecking thing off and leave for real.
 
2013-01-28 08:03:32 AM

orbister: CeroX: Since i've started working with him on a one on one basis, his grades have done a complete 180. The only bad reports we get are from him being a distraction in class. He's explained it to me and it basically boils down to that he physically cannot sit still, it gets to a point where he tries and tries and tries, but then it's like there's a breaking point and he just can't take it any longer and he has an outburst...

How old is he, as a matter of interest? I think many boys are simply not ready for the structure of a conventional school class at five, and enter a descending spiral of boredom -> frustration -> misbehaviour -> reprimand -> alienation -> boredom -> ... as a result. The only solution, in my opinion, is not to try to force small boys to be unnaturally still. Every single ADHD-diagnosed kid I've worked with has benefited enormous just from hard physical exercise - running around, walking long distances, anything to stop the energy and frustration building up in them.

Good luck!


he's 7... and i have no intention of medicating him unless he asks for it, and since i haven't even talked to him about a medicine option, i don't suspect he will learn about it for a while, which is part of my plan... he gets frustrated, and often cries because he wants to sit still in class and wants to participate properly, but he comes home and cries about it on a regular basis that he got in trouble for having an outburst in class...

My heart breaks for him every time too... but i also believe that he needs to be conditioned into some self control... it's frustrating now, but without conditioning and instilling some self control, he would as bad as the kid of someone else i know, whose hyper outbursts go completely unchecked and uncontrolled by his parents and it makes it seem like he has a worse condition than just adhd... my wife thinks he has tourrette's and i explained to her, no, because when he's sitting in front of the TV playing video games he's basically perfectly quiet and behaving and you almost wouldn't know he was even there... which of course is the parent's solution to keeping him under control... they are giving the crack addict crack to placate him instead of instilling self control...

But as far as my son goes... he doesn't WANT to have outbursts, he knows he gets in trouble, and he gets really upset with himself that it happens. I don't want to tell his teacher that he may be adhd because of the same attitude among teachers that you see here: "Oh it's not a real condition" "Oh you're one of THOSE parents who want to justify his bad behavior" "Why don't you put him on something for it if he is?"

He might benefit from exercise for his hyper activeness, but unless that exercise is mentally stimulating, he will get bored and stop and want to go do something else... And the school isn't going to give him 3 hours of dodgeball just so he will sit still when it comes time to sit and do math practice or quiet reading time...
 
2013-01-28 08:22:26 AM

SquiggsIN: optikeye: SquiggsIN: It's in the water and food. Environmental toxins DO cause problems despite the fact that the FDA is bribed with billions to keep approving whatever big business can cut into the supply chain.

I think water is much, much better, and far more controlled and safer in today's world than it was in the 1960, 50, 40s. Before the EPA was enacted.

keep thinking that


Show me some proof.

As a chemist who analyzes drinking water (including his own for fun), I can verify that the drinking water I consume (and most of our client customers consume) is clean. I even checked for drug residues and metabolites, which no regulatory agencies yet have MCL's for. In fact, during multiple analyses by GC-MS using 20ml purges (Method 524.3) and semivolatile extractions (Method 525.3) I went and searched the spectra of every damned peak in range and didn't find anything remotely interesting. Heck, I even ran some ECD work and found no halogenateds. Just humic substances. For inorganics, I went to ICP-MS by method 200.7 and didn't find anything inconsistent with naturally occurring trace elements. Bacteriologically, there wasn't anything unusual. So, unless you've been running some wacky ultra-low LOD work and looking at femtomolar concentrations, I don't see any rational grounds for saying it's something in the water. Even then, at those levels, the phthalates leaching out of the containers you contaminated the water with be an issue. Then of course none of our clients fluoridate their water.

So, if you're concerned that the gubbamint is poisoning your vital essence, look at the food.
 
2013-01-28 08:24:19 AM

cherryl taggart: We had a kid tested one time for learning disabilities. Test results showed the kid was of average intelligence, with no significant difficulties noted. We were then told to get a full medical work up on the kid. Said kid had levels of hormones consistent with onset of puberty, which have a known history of increased moodiness, rebellion to authority, risk taking behavior, etc. However, when we elected to continue with non-pharmacological behavior management, the 'professionals' were shocked.

Kid was a pain in the neck, and that kid's puberty was hell on everyone in our house. But, I'm still disgusted at the amount of grief we caught from doctors and teachers about non-drugging the kid.

I'm sure there are kids that would benefit from some kind of chemical rebalance, but it can't possibly be as high as the stats indicate currently.


Yeah. Those dumb "professionals." They think they know what's good and bad for kids just because they spent years in school engaged in rigorous academic study of "science." But did any of them bother to ask random assholes what their half baked hunches are? Their vague "feelings" that the number of kids who could benefit from medication can't possibly be that high?

No, not one. So what the hell do they know. Don't medicate your kid just because multiple doctors and teachers say he needs it. You know best. Not some ivory tower eggheads and their "stats." So f*ck'em.
 
2013-01-28 08:25:48 AM

stratagos: ambercat: Human beings aren't wired to spend their formative years sitting still in one position for hours, reading things, listening to someone talk about things they mostly don't care about, then filling in little bubbles about other things they mostly don't care about. Why is it a surprise some people aren't good at it? In modern society it may be a 'disorder' because it makes it harder for you to sit quietly in your cubicle and do paperwork, but I'm not sure it's a defect. For most of the time humans have been humans, they spent their time moving around, doing multiple tasks in a sensory rich environment where they needed to be alert to many different things. If you focused in too tightly on one specific repetitive task you might miss whatever was sneaking up behind you to kill you.

It was also acceptable to react to the "other" by hitting it with a rock.



4.bp.blogspot.com

Still approves of this method.
 
2013-01-28 08:26:09 AM
Well I'll be damned..........in my ten years on here, I never thought I'd see such an actual INTELLECTUAL, THOUGHT OUT discussion like this on here. Well played, all parties involved.
 
2013-01-28 08:27:52 AM
Huh, wut? Too many words
 
2013-01-28 08:30:00 AM

PrinceOfPersia: But for kids... fark the medication, they can handle sports or games.


I used to run all-day events for children involving very careful attention to detail - they were soldering together circuit boards. I very soon learned that sending them all out of the building every hour or so with instructions to "run around like loonies" for five minutes improved their behaviour enormously, and also reduced the smell of charred flesh with otherwise results from thirty children using soldering irons together ...
 
2013-01-28 08:34:13 AM

CeroX: he's 7... and i have no intention of medicating him unless he asks for it, and since i haven't even talked to him about a medicine option, i don't suspect he will learn about it for a while, which is part of my plan... he gets frustrated, and often cries because he wants to sit still in class and wants to participate properly, but he comes home and cries about it on a regular basis that he got in trouble for having an outburst in class...


I suspect that he's just being a seven year old boy, or one type of seven year old boy. A few boys are ready to sit still in class at 5 and a few of them still have difficulty doing it at 8. And if you're not ready, all the persuading, threatening and coaxing in the world won't help. All you get is a child who cries because he's upset about something which just isn't his fault.

The good news is that he'll almost certainly find things getting easier and easier as time goes on. Providing he hasn't already been characterised, and characterised himself, as "the bad boy". Been there, done that.
 
2013-01-28 08:36:27 AM
mittromneysdog - Yeah. Those dumb "professionals." They think they know what's good and bad for kids just because they spent years in school engaged in rigorous academic study of "science." partying their butts off because mummy and daddy could afford to send them to college and when you give a college $65,000 you are gonna get a 'shingle' whether you actually learned anything or not. But did any of them bother to ask random assholes what their half baked hunches are? Their vague "feelings" that the number of kids who could benefit from medication can't possibly be that high?

No, not one. So what the hell do they know. Don't medicate your kid just because multiple doctors and teachers are paid to say he needs it. You know best. Not some ivory tower eggheads bought paper waving frat boy that is on the take from Big Pharma and their "stats." So f*ck'em.


FTFY
 
2013-01-28 08:38:01 AM

PrinceOfPersia: It's a massive shame that the thread looks like it does right now. Plenty of people screaming that Big Pharma invented the condition and that some anecdotal experiences with snotty-nosed little kids with extremely poor parents being labelled with the condition disproves the entire condition's existence, carefully skirting the fact that it exists on adults, and the amount of extremely famous and successful adults that have come out as having ADHD. Are we saying these folk are using the label as an excuse for their failure? They haven't failed by my measure.

The Boobies was the sound of an emotional, angry post from someone all too used to being told they're an idiot and their condition is made up, and it's appropriate that even on Fark, where you can find at least some discussion and understanding for disorders like body dysphoria and transsexualism, is treated with such scorn.

Actual science recognises the condition, and in the latest DSM-V, it is still there, but has been refined and redefined, not eliminated, into a spectrum condition. I really don't want to share a label that so many associate with a either a children's disease, an American over-medication hoax, a crux for failure or a drug-seeker's 'disease' and I ESPECIALLY don't like taking the *pre-existing* and not made for purpose medications for it, as they have such a bad reputation and they have unpleasant side effects. I don't like collecting that medication at the pharmacy any more than you like the idea of someone using it for treatment.

Let me tell you what it's like - you cannot put your attention where you want it; it goes where it pleases, usually on the most interesting thing at the time. Imagine having to do something monotonous, tedious or otherwise extremely dull, but extremely important. You know full well that your life will be easier when you complete the task in good time, that you can continue to provide for yourself and your loved one if you apply yourself, that you will contin ...


Thank you. As someone who has spent my entire life fighting with ADD, I appreciate it when others understand what it is like.
 
2013-01-28 08:42:32 AM

mittromneysdog: Yeah. Those dumb "professionals." They think they know what's good and bad for kids just because they spent years in school engaged in rigorous academic study of "science." But did any of them bother to ask random assholes what their half baked hunches are? Their vague "feelings" that the number of kids who could benefit from medication can't possibly be that high?


If only medical professionals could agree about this. Across Scotland, the variation in Ritalin prescription rates for school-age children varies between health authorities by a factor of ten. The high-prescribers think the low prescribers are under prescribing and the low prescribers think the high prescribers are over prescribing. Meanwhile, if you live in Glasgow you know that your child is ten times more likely to be given drugs for ADHD than his cousin in Dundee.

No, not one. So what the hell do they know. Don't medicate your kid just because multiple doctors and teachers say he needs it. You know best. Not some ivory tower eggheads and their "stats." So f*ck'em.

When you have a hammer, everything looks like a nail. Giving a child Ritalin is hell of a lot easier than arranging CBT, parenting support and fixing the problems with the school system, just as it's a hell of a lot easier to give a depressed patient a repeat prescription for diazepam than it is to sort out the dreadful housing, abusive partner and unemployment that are actually causing her depression.

TL;DR: Behaviour problems are very rarely medical in origin, so medical treatment, no matter how well intentioned, is very rarely the answer.
 
2013-01-28 08:43:10 AM

payattention: mittromneysdog - Yeah. Those dumb "professionals." They think they know what's good and bad for kids just because they spent years in school engaged in rigorous academic study of "science." partying their butts off because mummy and daddy could afford to send them to college and when you give a college $65,000 you are gonna get a 'shingle' whether you actually learned anything or not. But did any of them bother to ask random assholes what their half baked hunches are? Their vague "feelings" that the number of kids who could benefit from medication can't possibly be that high?

No, not one. So what the hell do they know. Don't medicate your kid just because multiple doctors and teachers are paid to say he needs it. You know best. Not some ivory tower eggheads bought paper waving frat boy that is on the take from Big Pharma and their "stats." So f*ck'em.

FTFY


To be clear, she said "doctors" and "teachers" gave her grief for not medicating the kid. So we're talking at least two of each. And the way she discusses it, it sounds like there was a whole community of them. You're saying that among this group of educated, licensed professionals, there wasn't a single one who tried hard in school, took his professional responsibilities seriously, and wasn't on the take.

Like I said. You know best. Not them.
 
2013-01-28 08:43:58 AM

payattention: FTFY


Q. What do you call the medical student who gets the lowest passing grade in his year?

A. Doctor.
 
2013-01-28 08:45:51 AM
I used to drink so I'd be like everyone else.
 
2013-01-28 08:47:12 AM

mittromneysdog: To be clear, she said "doctors" and "teachers" gave her grief for not medicating the kid.


Lazy teachers don't want to take the time and trouble to change what they do to suit the lively kids. They want them drugged into quiet obedience.
 
2013-01-28 08:48:28 AM

orbister: If only medical professionals could agree about this.


As I said in post just above this: a minimum of two physicians and two teachers told her her kid needed medication. The way she talks about it, it sounds like there were even more. That's a pretty solid concurrence of professional opinion.
 
2013-01-28 08:49:18 AM
ADD is no laughing matter. My knuckles were actually bloody by the time I beat ADD out of my kid.
 
2013-01-28 08:49:47 AM

orbister: mittromneysdog: To be clear, she said "doctors" and "teachers" gave her grief for not medicating the kid.

Lazy teachers don't want to take the time and trouble to change what they do to suit the lively kids. They want them drugged into quiet obedience.


Right. So of this group of four educated, licensed professionals, not a one was worth a damn. I gotcha.
 
2013-01-28 08:53:36 AM

mittromneysdog: As I said in post just above this: a minimum of two physicians and two teachers told her her kid needed medication. The way she talks about it, it sounds like there were even more. That's a pretty solid concurrence of professional opinion.


She may as well have consulted a tree surgeon or two as well, since their knowledge and training in childhood behavioural issues is about as comprehensive as that of most doctors.

Shall I tell you the story of the friends of mine who were advised by several doctors, including a child intensive care consultant, that they should switch the machines off and let their daughter die because she was hopelessly brain damaged. And of how they refused, because they disagreed. And how, after a week of stand-off, it turned out that she was simply suffering from a very rare side effect of a drug she was taking, and that when the dosage of that drug was halved she recovered without any ill effects or brain damage within two hours?
 
2013-01-28 08:56:33 AM

mittromneysdog: Right. So of this group of four educated, licensed professionals, not a one was worth a damn. I gotcha.


How much training do licensed teachers get in the pharmacology of amphetamines?

How much training do licensed doctors get in child development and education?
 
2013-01-28 08:57:25 AM

orbister: mittromneysdog: As I said in post just above this: a minimum of two physicians and two teachers told her her kid needed medication. The way she talks about it, it sounds like there were even more. That's a pretty solid concurrence of professional opinion.

She may as well have consulted a tree surgeon or two as well, since their knowledge and training in childhood behavioural issues is about as comprehensive as that of most doctors.

Shall I tell you the story of the friends of mine who were advised by several doctors, including a child intensive care consultant, that they should switch the machines off and let their daughter die because she was hopelessly brain damaged. And of how they refused, because they disagreed. And how, after a week of stand-off, it turned out that she was simply suffering from a very rare side effect of a drug she was taking, and that when the dosage of that drug was halved she recovered without any ill effects or brain damage within two hours?


www.digitalmusicinsider.com
 
2013-01-28 08:59:52 AM

Resident Muslim: I've seen many kids with ADHD.
They cannot focus on ANYTHING* for more than a few minutes.

* this excludes iPads, video games and cartoon channels which miraculously they can focus on for hours at a time


Seriously, part of the diagnostic criteria should be to have the kid play a video game. If they can sit still and focus perfectly on that, they don't have ADHD. Trust me, if you honestly have a condition that makes it impossible to concentrate and stay still (bipolar disorder in my case), you can't concentrate on anything, no matter how interesting it is. I can play video games for maybe 15 minutes (time to pause and do something else), can't write a reply (hehe) without going through a playlist on iTunes, and I haven't sat through a movie in probably 15 years.

ADHD is real and is very debilitating to people who have it. But when you have a mental or neurological condition like it, you can't just turn it off and on based on what's interesting to you. It doesn't work that way. I wish it did.
 
2013-01-28 09:01:13 AM

PrinceOfPersia: Let me tell you what it's like - you cannot put your attention where you want it; it goes where it pleases, usually on the most interesting thing at the time. Imagine having to do something monotonous, tedious or otherwise extremely dull, but extremely important. You know full well that your life will be easier when you complete the task in good time, that you can continue to provide for yourself and your loved one if you apply yourself, that you will continue to build your future. Now imagine not being able to emotionally connect with that future image of yourself and your attention instead judges the task as inferior to pretty much everything else. All other people can tell you is that you need to stop being a child and think of your future and just man up and get it over with.


It can be even worse than that.

I was diagnosed with ADHD at 26. It took about two months of regular weekly sessions before the psychiatrist was willing to diagnose, so it wasn't rushed to judgement; we went back through all my school records, and almost every report card had something along the lines of "can't sit still" or "difficulty paying attention" tucked in there. It never got put together because my dad worked in government, and we kept moving around, so any given school board only had me for a year or two, no pattern was recognized. I'm only saying this because it wasn't a case where I developed ADHD as an adult, which doesn't happen; I'd just managed to skate by just enough up to that point.

The trigger for me seeking help was working on my honours thesis. This was a paper in a field I loved, whose subject I got to pick from pretty much whatever I liked. I really, really liked the material. Interest was not an issue. And yet, I'd still find myself playing Minesweeper or Solitaire for, literally, hours, while mentally screaming at myself to get to work, and even though I was bored silly. I couldn't even stop playing the stupid game to watch a movie or play a better game.

ADHD isn't really a lack of focus. It's a lack of control over focus. You can't think to yourself "I need to focus on this", and then do so. And the corollary to the scatterbrained lack of focus is the dynamic of hyperfocus, which is exactly what it sounds like.

Now, with medication (just caffeine, for me) and some behavioural therapy, I can usually manage my focus, and can control a hyperfocus often enough that it's a boon more than a pain. If I'm hyperfocusing, I can sit down and write for a good 4+ hours without deviation or break, and I won't notice the time go by or anything else going on around me, not even the usual stretch-your-legs moments most people have in that kind of time. I don't consider ADHD a negative, but it needs to be managed. And it's difficult describing the symptoms, because inevitably people say "hey, I do that too sometimes". Most mental disorders are defined by the prevalence of symptoms. Everyone gets distracted occasionally. People with ADHD get distracted constantly; when you say "just suck it up and focus", they are literally unable to do that. Dismissing it on those grouds is kind of like dismissing the voices a schizophrenic is describing because you sometimes hear your conscience tell you what to do, too.
 
2013-01-28 09:02:46 AM
She may as well have consulted a tree surgeon or two as well, since their knowledge and training in childhood behavioural issues is about as comprehensive as that of most doctors.

Agreed. So therefore any random asshole knows just as much about childhood behavioral issues as any given two trained, licensed physicians (end tone of irony here).

Of course, she also said she took the kid in for disability evaluation. Which strongly suggests there was a reason she did this in the first place. Her discussion of "risk taking" behaviors, moodiness, and rebellion suggests the catalyzing issue was behavioral. Which means the physicians involved here were--wait for it--childhood behavior specialists.

Shall I tell you the story of the friends of mine who were advised by several doctors, including a child intensive care consultant, that they should switch the machines off and let their daughter die because she was hopelessly brain damaged. And of how they refused, because they disagreed. And how, after a week of stand-off, it turned out that she was simply suffering from a very rare side effect of a drug she was taking, and that when the dosage of that drug was halved she recovered without any ill effects or brain damage within two hours?

Only if I can tell you the story of a family I knew who also didn't trust those eggheaded "doctors" and all their "science." Their kid came down with a life threatening but easily treatable condition. The "professionals" told them to medicate. But they knew better than the devil's brood. They prayed and prayed and prayed, but didn't medicate. No sir.

Mysteriously, the kid died anyway.

Now those worthless child killers are in prison where they belong.
 
2013-01-28 09:04:10 AM
What? You mean bombarding kids with overstimulating forms of entertainment for 7-8 hours a day means they won't learn how to concentrate and focus? Imagine that.
 
2013-01-28 09:05:29 AM

Skr: A Cure for ADD?


if it aint pills i'm not interested, i aint got time to raise kids, let the govt. and scienticians handle it with magic pills
 
2013-01-28 09:10:12 AM

mittromneysdog: So therefore any random asshole knows just as much about childhood behavioral issues as any given two trained, licensed physicians (end tone of irony here).


How much training, precisely, do you think physicians get in child development?
 
2013-01-28 09:11:49 AM

mittromneysdog: Only if I can tell you the story of a family I knew who also didn't trust those eggheaded "doctors" and all their "science." Their kid came down with a life threatening but easily treatable condition. The "professionals" told them to medicate.


You'll note that my friends insisted that medical treatment be continued.
 
2013-01-28 09:15:20 AM

orbister: How much training do licensed teachers get in the pharmacology of amphetamines?


How much training do random assholes kid in childhood behavior issues? Or the pharmacology of amphetamines? And anyway, given that this is an ADHD thread, and given what we know about the child's moodiness, rebellion, and risk taking behaviors, it sounds like the kid's symptoms here mimicked ADHD. So it's somehwat there that there are non-amphetamine treatments for ADHD.

How much training do licensed doctors get in child development and education?

The childhood behavior specialists involved in this case surely had extensive training in child development, and the pharmacology of amphetamine and non-amphetamine treatments for childhood behavior problems. And though I don't know the details, I assure you that teachers in most places actually do get some training in identifying symptoms of common childhood disabilities. Obviously, they're not qualified to diagnose. But they probably know more about them than random assholes.

But I love the fact that you place the childhood behavior credentials of random assholes above those even of non-specialist physicians and teachers. That's awesome.
 
2013-01-28 09:19:55 AM

mittromneysdog: How much training do random assholes kid in childhood behavior issues? Or the pharmacology of amphetamines? And anyway, given that this is an ADHD thread, and given what we know about the child's moodiness, rebellion, and risk taking behaviors, it sounds like the kid's symptoms here mimicked ADHD. So it's somehwat there that there are non-amphetamine treatments for ADHD.


Let me try this one again.

How much training do random assholes get in childhood behavior issues? Or the pharmacology of amphetamines? And anyway, given that this is an ADHD thread, and given what we know about the child's moodiness, rebellion, and risk taking behaviors, it sounds like the kid's symptoms here mimicked ADHD. So it's somewhat relevant that there are non-amphetamine treatments for ADHD.
 
2013-01-28 09:20:01 AM

mittromneysdog: orbister: If only medical professionals could agree about this.

As I said in post just above this: a minimum of two physicians and two teachers told her her kid needed medication. The way she talks about it, it sounds like there were even more. That's a pretty solid concurrence of professional opinion.


There are tests. Were they done? Without them, "professional opinion" doesn't matter.
 
2013-01-28 09:21:11 AM
How many articles a week are we going to have about ADHD?
 
2013-01-28 09:21:30 AM

mittromneysdog: How much training do random assholes get in childhood behavior issues? Or the pharmacology of amphetamines?


To be fair, certified teachers actually do get some training in child and adolescent psychology, of which behavior issues are a part. However, last I checked this did not include psychopharmacology.
 
2013-01-28 09:21:37 AM

mittromneysdog: But I love the fact that you place the childhood behavior credentials of random assholes above those even of non-specialist physicians and teachers.


I trust caring and intelligent parents to make informed decisions on behalf of their children, and not accept the quick-and-easy buck-passing of professionals operating outwith their areas of expertise. I do not, unlike you, characterise these parents as "random assholes".

Now, could you explain why trained medical professionals are ten times more likely to prescribe Ritalin for ADHD in Glasgow than their equally trained colleagues in Dundee?
 
2013-01-28 09:23:56 AM

mittromneysdog: mittromneysdog: How much training do random assholes kid in childhood behavior issues? Or the pharmacology of amphetamines? And anyway, given that this is an ADHD thread, and given what we know about the child's moodiness, rebellion, and risk taking behaviors, it sounds like the kid's symptoms here mimicked ADHD. So it's somehwat there that there are non-amphetamine treatments for ADHD.

Let me try this one again.

How much training do random assholes get in childhood behavior issues? Or the pharmacology of amphetamines? And anyway, given that this is an ADHD thread, and given what we know about the child's moodiness, rebellion, and risk taking behaviors, it sounds like the kid's symptoms here mimicked ADHD. So it's somewhat relevant that there are non-amphetamine treatments for ADHD.


Yes, it's called Strattera, it's a non-stimulant medication for ADHD and it doesn't work. Especially if you have already been on stimulant ADHD meds prior to using it.

Plus, if for some reason you can't get the pill down all the way and it get stuck in your esophagus, it will burn for days and hurt like hell whenever you swallow food.
 
2013-01-28 09:24:55 AM

Millennium: To be fair, certified teachers actually do get some training in child and adolescent psychology, of which behavior issues are a part. However, last I checked this did not include psychopharmacology.


Indeed. So you have a bunch of people who know about kids but don't know about drugs and a bunch of people who know about drugs but don't know about kids. Neither side is in a position to take a fully informed decision.

It is also relevant to Mr Dog's position that there is huge disagreement in the medical profession about the use of drugs to treat ADHD. It's not like insulin for diabetes or l-dopa for Parkinson's.
 
2013-01-28 09:27:43 AM

Millennium: There are tests. Were they done? Without them, "professional opinion" doesn't matter.


She took the kid in for a disability evaluation. She says the doctors found the kid of average intelligence, but "no difficulties." I'm inclined to infer that they administered diagnostic tests.
 
2013-01-28 09:32:25 AM

Crackers Are a Family Food: Resident Muslim: I've seen many kids with ADHD.
They cannot focus on ANYTHING* for more than a few minutes.

* this excludes iPads, video games and cartoon channels which miraculously they can focus on for hours at a time

Seriously, part of the diagnostic criteria should be to have the kid play a video game. If they can sit still and focus perfectly on that, they don't have ADHD. Trust me, if you honestly have a condition that makes it impossible to concentrate and stay still (bipolar disorder in my case), you can't concentrate on anything, no matter how interesting it is. I can play video games for maybe 15 minutes (time to pause and do something else), can't write a reply (hehe) without going through a playlist on iTunes, and I haven't sat through a movie in probably 15 years.

ADHD is real and is very debilitating to people who have it. But when you have a mental or neurological condition like it, you can't just turn it off and on based on what's interesting to you. It doesn't work that way. I wish it did.


Sounds like the only think you know about and i should trust you on is bipolar, i have ADD, my wife's best friend is horribly ADHD... the condition is chemical and triggered by stimuli or a lack thereof... I get treated for it, and it was explained to me pretty clearly. I tried to clarify it in a post earlier, it's a side effect of ADD called Hyper-Focus... It's a chemical reaction in the brain as a reaction to stimulus. The right kind of stimulus causes the brain to start producing the chemicals that allow the brain to stay focus on task, but because the brain of an ADD person isn't used to those sorts of chemicals, the result is overcompensation. The person then becomes entranced by the stimulus, there are various forms of stimuli that can cause this, but they mostly have to do with small simple challenges with a pay off or reward system... TV/movies have it, books can have it, though nothing compared to games...

Like i said, my doc went through and explained it to me simply and clearly, and i think other people here who are also diagnosed can agree with me here.
 
2013-01-28 09:35:02 AM

orbister: I trust caring and intelligent parents to make informed decisions on behalf of their children, and not accept the quick-and-easy buck-passing of professionals operating outwith their areas of expertise. I do not, unlike you, characterise these parents as "random assholes".


Except the doctors here were childhood behavior specialists. And remember, we're talking about a minimum of two of them who recommended medication. We're talking here about someone with the handle "cheryl taggart," a "good guy" character in Atlas Shrugged. So we're dealing here with an Ayn Rand fan, not a caring, intelligent parent (snark).

Now, could you explain why trained medical professionals are ten times more likely to prescribe Ritalin for ADHD in Glasgow than their equally trained colleagues in Dundee?

Several possible reasons. One of them could be that kids in Glasgow get ADHD at ten times the rate as kids in Dundee. It could be that doctors in Glasgow have received specialized training in identifying ADHD, but that the doctors in Dundee have not. It could be that parents in Glasgow are better informed about ADHD, and therefore more likely to bring kids with symptoms to the doctor for it.
 
2013-01-28 09:35:33 AM
Paging STEVEROCKSON
 
2013-01-28 09:36:43 AM

Millennium: mittromneysdog: How much training do random assholes get in childhood behavior issues? Or the pharmacology of amphetamines?

To be fair, certified teachers actually do get some training in child and adolescent psychology, of which behavior issues are a part. However, last I checked this did not include psychopharmacology.


Yes, I agree. It looks like you're disagreeing with me here, but we seem to share the same view on this point. Maybe you misunderstood my post.
 
Displayed 50 of 118 comments

First | « | 1 | 2 | 3 | » | Last | Show all

View Voting Results: Smartest and Funniest


This thread is closed to new comments.

Continue Farking
Submit a Link »






Report