If you can read this, either the style sheet didn't load or you have an older browser that doesn't support style sheets. Try clearing your browser cache and refreshing the page.

(Slate)   In an attempt to make you forget about everything else he has said, Silvio Berlusconi claims Mussolini wasn't so bad. Godwini's law has just been invoked   (slate.com) divider line 10
    More: Fail, Berlusconi, Mussolini, Jewish laws, Berlusconi claims  
•       •       •

2103 clicks; posted to Main » on 27 Jan 2013 at 8:16 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



Voting Results (Smartest)
View Voting Results: Smartest and Funniest


Archived thread
2013-01-27 08:25:59 PM
3 votes:
This is what I hate about politics. Knee jerk reactions matter more than prolonged conversation and debating facts.

Mussolini came to power in 1922. Hitler in 1933. Eleven years is a long time. People overlook 1922-1933 because 1934-1945 overfills schoolbook attention the world over.

This is why Mussolini came to power- in 1917 the Bolsheviks came to power in Russia. By 1922 the Bolsheviks were strong enough to have consolidated the old empire, retaken Belorussia, and were pressing deep into Poland. In Germany between 1918-1919 there was a naval revolt in Kiel, as well as a communist revolution in Bavaria. In 1919 Bela Kun was leading a communist revolt in Hungry. Even the Ottoman empire had fallen. Fear of chaos and red terror was spreading westward.

Mussolini was able to avoid revolution. Yes, his tactics were strongarm, but Italy was not a democracy, it was a monarchy. "It could have been worse" is not a excuse, but... could it really have been better?

To avoid revolution, the existing order needed to be preserved, the growing urban labour movement needed to be appeased (he himself was a former socialist party member,) the mafia needed to be bought off, and the Vatican needed guaranteed protection. Under Mussolini's rule (until he effectively lost power was was propped up by the also dying National Socialist German empire), avant-garde art flowed. And until the ill fated alliance with Germany and the outbreak of war- people were not round up en masse and put in death camps, and Jews had a much larger gouvernment representation percentage than they had population percentage.

Mussolini gets a worse wrap than he deserves. I'm not saying that he deserves a good wrap. What I am saying is that if it wasnt for WW2 and the alliance with Germany, he would be a regular old dictator swept into the dustbin of history and not have his name next to Hitler and Stalin in the same sentence of all the history books. While some of the methods may have been violent on a individual scale, he was not as brutal as his later allies AND enemies were on a national and international scale. And that he did far more to preserve world order than, unlike his contemporaries, friend or foe, destroy it.
2013-01-27 09:31:24 PM
2 votes:

rattchett: But he did ally with Hitler


So did the rest of Europe sans Britain and France, on account of the threat posed by a rapidly industrializing and militarizing Soviet Union.

rattchett: he was weak


He was very popular domestically and internationally. I fail to see how you could call him a weak leader.

rattchett: he assisted in the final solution


Italy was a better place to be a Jew than much of the rest of Europe, and the deportation of Jews only occurred in German-occupied Italy following the Italian-Allied armistice. Mussolini was a hostage at this point.

rattchett: he was a racist


Mussolini: Race? It is a feeling, not a reality. Ninety-five per cent, at least. Nothing will ever make me believe that biologically pure races can be shown to exist today.... National pride has no need of the delirium of race.


rattchett: his military was pathetic and basically lost every battle it ever participated in


This myth is the result of British and German propaganda. German leaders often blamed their failures on the quality of Italian troops. Admittedly, Italy lacked the quality of equipment of other countries, but that is to be expected from a minor power, just as no one expected Romania, China, or Turkey to produce world-class armour or arms.

rattchett: he invaded Ethiopia


How is this any different from the atrocities committed by the other European powers in the Scramble for Africa, or the crimes they were then-currently committing against their subjugated populaces? Italy's actions in Ethiopia were brutal, but war is brutal, and the Italians never participated in the wanton meaningless slaughter perpetrated in Belgian, yes Belgian, Congo. Their is far more blood on the hands of Belgium's leaders of the era than Mussolini.

rattchett: El Duce was a douche.


You think you're clever, but that is one of the most childish lines I've ever read.

Mussolini was not a monster, and in fact was a pretty decent leader. He increased agricultural output, reduced malaria, improved the Italian economy, reduced the influence of the mafia, and restored Italian national pride. Furthermore, he guaranteed Austrian independence until it was clear that he would have no support from Britain or France, and was one of the few European leaders to actively stand against Hitler.
2013-01-27 09:10:20 PM
2 votes:
Modern leftists worship his absolute power and wish it for their team.
2013-01-27 10:25:58 PM
1 votes:
Bukharin: Franco is a better analogy. Franco had a lot of admirers in the democratic countries, (William Buckley, for one) and he was a fervent anti-communist (he sent the Blue Division to help-out invading the USSR) but, unlike Mussolini, Franco didn't have these grandiose ideas about building a new empire overseas.

Everything tells me that Franco played it way, way smarter than Mussolini. Not only did he live to a ripe old age, he continued to be a respected statesman and, during the Cold War, a NATO ally.
2013-01-27 09:44:46 PM
1 votes:
"People who invoke Godwin's Law are worse than Hitler."

--Al Yankovic
2013-01-27 09:33:33 PM
1 votes:
Bukharin: Your perspective is interesting, but you've obviously cherry-picked the dates so as to pre-date the most objectionable stuff that Mussolini did-- aid to Franco, invading Albania, etc. But what about the brutal suppression of the Libyan revolt in the late 1920s which lasted until 1931? Mussolini signed-off on the herding of thousands of people into concentration camps, the torture of prisoners, the execution of Omar Mukhtar, etc.
2013-01-27 08:50:36 PM
1 votes:
But nobody point out that his comments, as quoted in the article, were far more nuanced than the headline suggests and essentially correct. No, it's far easier just to pander to the lowest common denominator and feign outrage. Whargarble, etc.

/probably not the most appropriate time or place to make those kinds of comments but still...
2013-01-27 08:36:03 PM
1 votes:

Bukharin: This is what I hate about politics. Knee jerk reactions matter more than prolonged conversation and debating facts.

Mussolini came to power in 1922. Hitler in 1933. Eleven years is a long time. People overlook 1922-1933 because 1934-1945 overfills schoolbook attention the world over.

This is why Mussolini came to power- in 1917 the Bolsheviks came to power in Russia. By 1922 the Bolsheviks were strong enough to have consolidated the old empire, retaken Belorussia, and were pressing deep into Poland. In Germany between 1918-1919 there was a naval revolt in Kiel, as well as a communist revolution in Bavaria. In 1919 Bela Kun was leading a communist revolt in Hungry. Even the Ottoman empire had fallen. Fear of chaos and red terror was spreading westward.

Mussolini was able to avoid revolution. Yes, his tactics were strongarm, but Italy was not a democracy, it was a monarchy. "It could have been worse" is not a excuse, but... could it really have been better?

To avoid revolution, the existing order needed to be preserved, the growing urban labour movement needed to be appeased (he himself was a former socialist party member,) the mafia needed to be bought off, and the Vatican needed guaranteed protection. Under Mussolini's rule (until he effectively lost power was was propped up by the also dying National Socialist German empire), avant-garde art flowed. And until the ill fated alliance with Germany and the outbreak of war- people were not round up en masse and put in death camps, and Jews had a much larger gouvernment representation percentage than they had population percentage.

Mussolini gets a worse wrap than he deserves. I'm not saying that he deserves a good wrap. What I am saying is that if it wasnt for WW2 and the alliance with Germany, he would be a regular old dictator swept into the dustbin of history and not have his name next to Hitler and Stalin in the same sentence of all the history books. While some of the methods may have been violent on a individ ...


But he did ally with Hitler, he was weak, he assisted in the final solution, he was a racist, his military was pathetic and basically lost every battle it ever participated in, and he invaded Ethiopia. El Duce was a douche.
2013-01-27 08:34:00 PM
1 votes:

Bukharin: This is what I hate about politics. Knee jerk reactions matter more than prolonged conversation and debating facts.

Mussolini came to power in 1922. Hitler in 1933. Eleven years is a long time. People overlook 1922-1933 because 1934-1945 overfills schoolbook attention the world over.

This is why Mussolini came to power- in 1917 the Bolsheviks came to power in Russia. By 1922 the Bolsheviks were strong enough to have consolidated the old empire, retaken Belorussia, and were pressing deep into Poland. In Germany between 1918-1919 there was a naval revolt in Kiel, as well as a communist revolution in Bavaria. In 1919 Bela Kun was leading a communist revolt in Hungry. Even the Ottoman empire had fallen. Fear of chaos and red terror was spreading westward.

Mussolini was able to avoid revolution. Yes, his tactics were strongarm, but Italy was not a democracy, it was a monarchy. "It could have been worse" is not a excuse, but... could it really have been better?

To avoid revolution, the existing order needed to be preserved, the growing urban labour movement needed to be appeased (he himself was a former socialist party member,) the mafia needed to be bought off, and the Vatican needed guaranteed protection. Under Mussolini's rule (until he effectively lost power was was propped up by the also dying National Socialist German empire), avant-garde art flowed. And until the ill fated alliance with Germany and the outbreak of war- people were not round up en masse and put in death camps, and Jews had a much larger gouvernment representation percentage than they had population percentage.

Mussolini gets a worse wrap than he deserves. I'm not saying that he deserves a good wrap. What I am saying is that if it wasnt for WW2 and the alliance with Germany, he would be a regular old dictator swept into the dustbin of history and not have his name next to Hitler and Stalin in the same sentence of all the history books. While some of the methods may have been violent on a individ ...


The Ethiopians would disagree.
2013-01-27 08:27:00 PM
1 votes:
Really, is there still even that much of a difference between him and Mussolini at this point?

Both are narcissistic blowhards who think they're the next Julius Caesar but couldn't be competent enough to successfully run an outlet mall in Idaho, let alone the Italian government.
 
Displayed 10 of 10 comments

View Voting Results: Smartest and Funniest


This thread is archived, and closed to new comments.

Continue Farking
Submit a Link »






Report