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(NYPost)   1) Be a unionized New York City schoolteacher. 2) Sexually harass female students. 3) Profit   (nypost.com) divider line 95
    More: Obvious, United Federation of Teachers  
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9990 clicks; posted to Main » on 27 Jan 2013 at 5:43 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-01-27 07:21:57 PM  

Vegan Meat Popsicle: MyRandomName: Even if it was a technicality, he shouldnt be allowed to sit there for 10 years. A private sector position found wrong is rarely dinged for more than a years pay. This is 13 years. Only a liberal can defend this asinine result.

Do you ever post anything that isn't brain-achingly stupid?


So you have no defense of allowing someone 13 years of pay on a technocality?

Grow up.
 
2013-01-27 07:22:20 PM  

Badafuco: In California, you can spoonfeed semen laced cookies to your students and get paid $40,000 to retire with full pension and benefits totaling almost $4,000 per month. For life. A small downside of teacher unions in California.

/Rot in hell Mark Berndt


As a wise Stiletto once said, "Let's find an outlier and use it to argue that all unions are bad! Wow, BONUS, he's a perv! Unions are TOTALLY EVIL!!!"
 
2013-01-27 07:23:48 PM  

Banacek: So we have this story from the Post about unions and The Sun's story about welfare. Rupert's machine is really well run. Got to get the message out.


workers bad. management good
 
2013-01-27 07:25:43 PM  

Brick-House: SubBass49: Brick-House: There may have been a time when tenure and unions were needed in our public schools, but everything they say they protect you from has been codified by city, state and federal laws. So really, why do teachers need Tenure and Unions?

And this guy does look pervy.

[www.nypost.com image 300x300]

Just one example? Our union contract in my district states that a hard-cap of 36 students are to be in any one classroom at any time. However, the district is routinely placing up to 40 kids in a classroom. Despite being told that this was a contract violation, they disagreed, and have failed to correct the situation. The union is filing official paperwork with the state public employee relations board. In the absence of unions, do you really think that everyday teachers have the resources and legal know-how to rectify such blatant abuses of legal contractual agreements? Not likely.

I could list more, such as the teacher that was almost railroaded out of our school for "assaulting a student" when the reality was that the douchebag kid had cussed him out in class when told to stop talking during lecture, then braced himself inside the door frame and refused to leave when told to do so. Kid was a 6'2", 230 lb football linebacker, and the teacher was a psychics nerd. As the teacher walked him out the door, the kid flopped down to the ground (probably trying to be funny or cause a bigger scene) and hit his head on a metal railing outside the room, knocking him out cold. Teacher was suspended from his job pending investigation. Without the union protecting him and providing pro-bono legal help, he would have lost his career. BTW...he was an award-winning teacher who placed kids nationally in physics competitions. Thanks to the union, he's STILL a teacher there, and the kid (along with his lawsuit happy momma) got NOTHING...as it should be.

Anyway, two great reasons out of many that unions should still exist for teachers.

First example, the s ...


Back in my day we didn't need video caneras everywhere.

laist.com
 
2013-01-27 07:28:35 PM  

Hobodeluxe: Banacek: So we have this story from the Post about unions and The Sun's story about welfare. Rupert's machine is really well run. Got to get the message out.

workers bad. management good


Correction: The message is: "workers bad. owners good"

Subtle but important distinction. Low level managers are often as much victims of big business's greed as workers are.
 
2013-01-27 07:29:26 PM  

SubBass49: o5iiawah: SubBass49: Anyway, two great reasons out of many that unions should still exist for teachers.

Your purely fabricated stories do not in any way defend the actions of a "teacher" who has been paid for 10 years to do nothing because he is a danger to children, yet cannot be fired.

1. Stories not fabricated.


If you say so. Your word is good enough for me upon which to base an opinion.
 
2013-01-27 07:31:40 PM  

tcan: Simple question, how many taxpayers taxes are required to support this guy?


Paul Krugman, therefore the question in irrelevant.
 
2013-01-27 07:33:30 PM  

GORDON: SubBass49: o5iiawah: SubBass49: Anyway, two great reasons out of many that unions should still exist for teachers.

Your purely fabricated stories do not in any way defend the actions of a "teacher" who has been paid for 10 years to do nothing because he is a danger to children, yet cannot be fired.

1. Stories not fabricated.


If you say so. Your word is good enough for me upon which to base an opinion.


I have heard many similar stories from other teachers. I doubt they are all making them up. Then again, I'm not a crazy person.
 
2013-01-27 07:36:00 PM  

tcan: Simple question, how many taxpayers taxes are required to support this guy?


Far fewer than how many taxpayers' taxes it takes to buy a single F-35 joint strike fighter. But you'll never see Murdoch publish a hit piece about that waste of tax money...
 
2013-01-27 07:42:39 PM  

dave2198: Smart people don't become teachers, because the pay is shiatty, the hours are long, and they know people like you are trying to fark them over every chance you get.


I resent this broad generalization. The vast majority of smart people do not become teachers, which is exactly why I became a teacher; I don't trust most people to teach.
 
2013-01-27 07:43:05 PM  
Thank god for unions
 
2013-01-27 07:45:45 PM  

Vangor: dave2198: Smart people don't become teachers, because the pay is shiatty, the hours are long, and they know people like you are trying to fark them over every chance you get.

I resent this broad generalization. The vast majority of smart people do not become teachers, which is exactly why I became a teacher; I don't trust most people to teach.


No disrespect intended. I apologize, I shouldn't have made the generalization.

However, I know a few people who would have made great teachers, who were scared away by the recent witch-hunts.
 
2013-01-27 07:52:57 PM  

Banacek: So we have this story from the Post about unions and The Sun's story about welfare. Rupert's machine is really well run. Got to get the message out.


Between this hit piece on unions and the Sun'shiat piece on government benefits recipients, all we need to complete the trifecta is a Wall Street Journal article about how a brave, bootstrapping business owner rescued 10 puppies from a river DESPITE the hardship Obamacare caused him.
 
2013-01-27 08:00:16 PM  

dave2198: Vangor: dave2198: Smart people don't become teachers, because the pay is shiatty, the hours are long, and they know people like you are trying to fark them over every chance you get.

I resent this broad generalization. The vast majority of smart people do not become teachers, which is exactly why I became a teacher; I don't trust most people to teach.

No disrespect intended. I apologize, I shouldn't have made the generalization.

However, I know a few people who would have made great teachers, who were scared away by the recent witch-hunts.


Mostly messing with you. My professors were great people who helped me suffer through the lack of experience, intellect, curiosity, basic skills, etc., of my classmates. The problem is we have people fresh from school who remember school as such a great experience to be replicated but were never motivated to do anything other than teach* as well as a host of parents who view teaching as a natural extension of child-rearing either when children are of school age or have left home. Our result is little connection to real world , stagnation of methodologies, sense of knowledge of pedagogy and content which resists training, outdated motivational practices and familial expectations, and blunted skills and knowledge from prolonged disuse. Good news is the best of my peers have positions or have retained positions whereas the worst have not.

*I do not mean to be motivated to teach is somehow low but rather this colors beliefs on the intent of school. When people are motivated to further biology research, practice medicine, etc., but return afterward to teach, the intent of school becomes to prepare other people for positions outside of school; teachers saw school as the process to become a teacher which involves broad, shallow, detached academic ability and skills. At least, this has been my view as I despised school and only returned because I saw the need in gifted education policy and advocacy.
 
2013-01-27 08:00:39 PM  

Vegan Meat Popsicle: He didn't profit because he was in the union, he profited because some idiot didn't follow a simple protocol when they tried to fired him and he got caught in a technicality.


And how do you think the technicality got there, and appears to be a technicality unique to large urban public education systems - mainly NYC?
 
2013-01-27 08:02:33 PM  

stiletto_the_wise: Banacek: So we have this story from the Post about unions and The Sun's story about welfare. Rupert's machine is really well run. Got to get the message out.

Between this hit piece on unions and the Sun'shiat piece on government benefits recipients, all we need to complete the trifecta is a Wall Street Journal article about how a brave, bootstrapping business owner rescued 10 puppies from a river DESPITE the hardship Obamacare caused him.


They don't even hide it. All they care about is getting the message across. The fact that people will get in a frenzy over unions about this means the message is working.
 
2013-01-27 08:06:31 PM  
Stating that in todays world, there is no need for Tenure and Teachers Unions is like throwing rocks at a hornet's nest.

www.exoduspestcontrol.com
 
2013-01-27 08:13:45 PM  

Baz the Spaz: Because, for every one of these stories, there are dozens of teachers in school districts across the country - good teachers - who are targeted by unethical bosses for termination for bad reasons or no reason at all.


I have heard this time and again as a reason for tenure, but again, there are legal means to deal with this that will protect the teacher from unlawful termination and harassment and a lot of good lawyers out there ready, willing, and very able to take these cases. And of course the side benefit of this is bringing light on the situation. That alone would most likely make any of this stop -- if it's really happening that is.

theresilientearth.com
 
2013-01-27 08:18:46 PM  

Brick-House: Stating that in todays world, there is no need for Tenure and Teachers Unions is like throwing rocks at a hornet's nest saying something else that is also stupid.

[www.exoduspestcontrol.com image 300x225]


Next?
 
2013-01-27 08:29:02 PM  

MyRandomName: So you have no defense of allowing someone 13 years of pay on a technocality?


No, why would I try to defend a poorly designed system that routinely fails everybody involved? Because you made up a stupid strawman about "libs! libs! libs!" - same as every other thread you've ever posted in - and expected somebody in this thread to justify it for you?

Still waiting on those citations for your last series of BS allegations, by the way.

Gulper Eel: And how do you think the technicality got there, and appears to be a technicality unique to large urban public education systems - mainly NYC?


I don't know, but maybe you should ask the DoE that put the "rubber room" system in place, hired the arbitrators that are supposed to work the cases and then failed to pay those arbitrators for years until nearly half of them quit and the rest started refusing to hear cases until they were given their owed backpay.

But, no, I'm sure it's all somehow the fault of "unions" anyway. I'm sure baseless insinuations become facts if you try hard enough.
 
2013-01-27 08:33:59 PM  

Brick-House: I have heard this time and again as a reason for tenure, but again, there are legal means to deal with this that will protect the teacher from unlawful termination and harassment and a lot of good lawyers out there ready, willing, and very able to take these cases. And of course the side benefit of this is bringing light on the situation. That alone would most likely make any of this stop -- if it's really happening that is.


Thanks to the magic of at-will employment, very, very little counts as unlawful termination. You have no right to keep your job. A company may fire you for any reason or no reason. It's you (with very little defense) vs. the corporation (who has comparative limitless resources to use against you). This imbalance is an intentional part of the system. This alone is enough to validate the need for unions. The ability to go many vs. many instead of one vs. many is the primary benefit of a union.
 
2013-01-27 08:42:32 PM  

BarkingUnicorn: Instead of giving them busywork, why not just make them sit in the rubber room doing absolutely nothing?  Seems they'd go crazy or quit.


make them shovel snow and rake rocks.


stiletto_the_wise: You have no right to keep your job.


why would I want a right to keep a job, or a duty to keep someone I don't want working for me employed?
I use contracts for that. why can't you?
 
2013-01-27 08:45:58 PM  

relcec: BarkingUnicorn: Instead of giving them busywork, why not just make them sit in the rubber room doing absolutely nothing?  Seems they'd go crazy or quit.

make them shovel snow and rake rocks.


stiletto_the_wise: You have no right to keep your job.

why would I want a right to keep a job, or a duty to keep someone I don't want working for me employed?
I use contracts for that. why can't you?


They do, but for some strange reason, school districts keep failing to live up to their end.

If only there was some way for teachers to band together, to stop such abuse by increasing their bargaining power?
 
2013-01-27 08:52:34 PM  

dave2198: why would I want a right to keep a job, or a duty to keep someone I don't want working for me employed?
I use contracts for that. why can't you?

They do



oh, I guess she's just unaware that such thing as a legally enforceable set of bilateral promises between parties even exists. shocking.
 
2013-01-27 08:53:15 PM  

stiletto_the_wise: Brick-House: I have heard this time and again as a reason for tenure, but again, there are legal means to deal with this that will protect the teacher from unlawful termination and harassment and a lot of good lawyers out there ready, willing, and very able to take these cases. And of course the side benefit of this is bringing light on the situation. That alone would most likely make any of this stop -- if it's really happening that is.

Thanks to the magic of at-will employment, very, very little counts as unlawful termination. You have no right to keep your job. A company may fire you for any reason or no reason. It's you (with very little defense) vs. the corporation (who has comparative limitless resources to use against you). This imbalance is an intentional part of the system. This alone is enough to validate the need for unions. The ability to go many vs. many instead of one vs. many is the primary benefit of a union.


So, is it really that hard for teachers to get along with their supervisors?
 
2013-01-27 08:57:15 PM  

relcec: oh, I guess she's just unaware that such thing as a legally enforceable set of bilateral promises between parties even exists. shocking.


It's that I'm unaware of a universe where a single person generally has a chance of fighting a gigantic corporation in court on a level playing field. And I'm a guy. Thanks.
 
2013-01-27 08:59:57 PM  

relcec: dave2198: why would I want a right to keep a job, or a duty to keep someone I don't want working for me employed?
I use contracts for that. why can't you?

They do


oh, I guess she's just unaware that such thing as a legally enforceable set of bilateral promises between parties even exists. shocking.


Hahahaha. Oh wait, you're serious?

Wow, contracts are enforceable by law. What a novel concept. I'm sure that will clear this mess right up. You should probably tell that to the teachers, I'm sure they haven't thought of it.
 
2013-01-27 09:02:52 PM  

Brick-House: stiletto_the_wise: Brick-House: I have heard this time and again as a reason for tenure, but again, there are legal means to deal with this that will protect the teacher from unlawful termination and harassment and a lot of good lawyers out there ready, willing, and very able to take these cases. And of course the side benefit of this is bringing light on the situation. That alone would most likely make any of this stop -- if it's really happening that is.

Thanks to the magic of at-will employment, very, very little counts as unlawful termination. You have no right to keep your job. A company may fire you for any reason or no reason. It's you (with very little defense) vs. the corporation (who has comparative limitless resources to use against you). This imbalance is an intentional part of the system. This alone is enough to validate the need for unions. The ability to go many vs. many instead of one vs. many is the primary benefit of a union.

So, is it really that hard for teachers to get along with their supervisors?


If you don't know anything about a subject, you should probably stop discussing it.

And you clearly don't know anything about this subject.
 
2013-01-27 09:06:26 PM  

stiletto_the_wise: relcec: oh, I guess she's just unaware that such thing as a legally enforceable set of bilateral promises between parties even exists. shocking.

It's that I'm unaware of a universe where a single person generally has a chance of fighting a gigantic corporation in court on a level playing field. And I'm a guy. Thanks.


the court won't enforce your employment because you are just a person? bullshiat.
are you sure it isn't that your skills or so common place you couldn't hope be anything more than a cog in someone else's machine?
listen, you are the same person that is demanding we constantly increase the labor supply in this country when we don;t even have enough jobs for our own.
you don't like competing in a constantly increasing labor pool? get a marketable skill, get an education, or stop begging for this country to import people to compete with you and enrich the capitalist class at your expense. we'd have massively tightening labor supply right now with its attendant significant increase in your bargaining power and wages with the retirement of the baby boom generation if it were not for people exactly like you. whatever you do, quit biatching about the situation you created. you made this bed, now sleep in it.
 
2013-01-27 09:07:11 PM  
Unions! Whargarbl!

Kindly fark back off to Politics subby.
 
2013-01-27 09:24:48 PM  

relcec: the court won't enforce your employment because you are just a person? bullshiat.


When it comes to the civil courts, you've got to pay to play. That's why patents are pretty much useless to the small-time single inventor, but massively important to large corporations. In lawsuits it's bankroll vs. bankroll.

relcec: listen, you are the same person that is demanding we constantly increase the labor supply in this country when we don;t even have enough jobs for our own.
you don't like competing in a constantly increasing labor pool? get a marketable skill, get an education, or stop begging for this country to import people to compete with you and enrich the capitalist class at your expense. we'd have massively tightening labor supply right now with its attendant significant increase in your bargaining power and wages with the retirement of the baby boom generation if it were not for people exactly like you. whatever you do, quit biatching about the situation you created. you made this bed, now sleep in it.


Well, first let me say I'm flattered that someone tracks my posts from thread to thread. I do advocate for increasing the labor supply in the USA, since I'd rather see work be done here than offshore, and many industries here have a lack of skilled workers. But I also advocate for the labor supply to cooperate instead of compete, because we have a common adversary.

The capital class will do just fine, regardless of whether I work for their corporations or someone else does. Due to the nature of capitalism (ownership of business goes to he who already has money), the system is rigged permanently in their favor. I think the rest of us would all be better off united and able to collectively demand things like pensions, fewer hours, safer working conditions, etc. Having more people in the workforce makes such a collective arrangement stronger, not weaker, but only if they buy into the idea and choose to take part.

The worst situation would be a country full of freelancers, competing with each other rather than cooperating, driving the value of labor down and cementing the capital class into their positions.
 
2013-01-27 09:29:10 PM  
So on which days of the week are teachers Union Thugs, and on which days are we supposed to give them guns?
 
2013-01-27 09:32:03 PM  
Brick-House (farkied: Dumb as a brick): There may have been a time when tenure and unions were needed in our public schools, but everything they say they protect you from has been codified by city, state and federal laws.

Which the Publicans are busily trying to dismantle.
 
2013-01-27 09:35:12 PM  

dave2198: If you don't know anything about a subject, you should probably stop discussing it.

And you clearly don't know anything about this subject.


What I do know is that people will hold on to any excuse if they believe it helps them to keep their jobs. But in a the end, all it does if drive up the cost of educating our children, if you call the current graduations rates educating our children.

www.data360.org
 
2013-01-27 09:41:33 PM  

Brick-House: dave2198: If you don't know anything about a subject, you should probably stop discussing it.

And you clearly don't know anything about this subject.

What I do know is that people will hold on to any excuse if they believe it helps them to keep their jobs. But in a the end, all it does if drive up the cost of educating our children, if you call the current graduations rates educating our children.

[www.data360.org image 500x350]


Hahaha...awesome...you used a graph that supports higher pay and teacher unionization! LULZ!!!
 
2013-01-27 09:48:34 PM  

Brick-House: dave2198: If you don't know anything about a subject, you should probably stop discussing it.

And you clearly don't know anything about this subject.

What I do know is that people will hold on to any excuse if they believe it helps them to keep their jobs. But in a the end, all it does if drive up the cost of educating our children, if you call the current graduations rates educating our children.

[www.data360.org image 500x350]


Which of those nations that perform better than us have unionized teachers?

Only those ranked #1, #2, #3, #4, #5, #6, #7, & #8...the ones above the OECD average...lol
 
2013-01-27 09:49:36 PM  
The ones below the average have unions too, but the funniest part is that you of all people posted that graph as some sort of argument against unions...classic...
 
2013-01-27 10:35:52 PM  

SubBass49: o5iiawah: SubBass49: Anyway, two great reasons out of many that unions should still exist for teachers.

Your purely fabricated stories do not in any way defend the actions of a "teacher" who has been paid for 10 years to do nothing because he is a danger to children, yet cannot be fired.

1. Stories not fabricated.

2. The douchebag in TFA hasn't been fired b/c someone there dropped the ball. He's an anomaly, not the norm. But I get it...end important protections and safeguards for ALL teachers because one douchebag's case wasn't followed up on. Got it. That'll certainly help bring qualified individuals into the teaching profession...knowing that you can be railroaded and fired without cause. You're a special kind of stupid, aren't you?


now you know how we gun people feel.
 
2013-01-27 10:39:14 PM  

Gulper Eel: Vegan Meat Popsicle: He didn't profit because he was in the union, he profited because some idiot didn't follow a simple protocol when they tried to fired him and he got caught in a technicality.

And how do you think the technicality got there, and appears to be a technicality unique to large urban public education systems - mainly NYC?


The technicality is there due to the SCOTUS decision in Miranda v. Arizona.
 
2013-01-27 11:07:45 PM  

stiletto_the_wise: Well, first let me say I'm flattered that someone tracks my posts from thread to thread. I do advocate for increasing the labor supply in the USA, since I'd rather see work be done here than offshore, and many industries here have a lack of skilled workers.


sure, I know you. you're the dude that turned the u.s. it industry from a promising and lucrative profession into cubicle slave labor in less than 20 years. take a einstein.
 
2013-01-28 02:45:56 AM  

SubBass49: 2. Video wouldn't have done the guy any good minus legal representation. The situation took place in the door-frame. Video...even GOOD video...wouldn't have shown what happened clearly enough to exonerate him.


What did exonerate him?
 
2013-01-28 10:39:13 AM  
Ah, yes, the ever present suggestion that an occasional jackass out of tens of thousands of teachers is enough to discredit unions.

Farking working class people, always trying to do what's best for them and their families. Don't they realize that security and a shot at a decent retirement is for the rich?
 
2013-01-28 12:41:23 PM  
Ain't no argument-thread condescension like teachers' union argument-thread condescension.
 
2013-01-28 06:19:26 PM  

Dokushin: SubBass49: 2. Video wouldn't have done the guy any good minus legal representation. The situation took place in the door-frame. Video...even GOOD video...wouldn't have shown what happened clearly enough to exonerate him.

What did exonerate him?


Witness statements, the hard work of union legal experts, etc. This is a guy that walks or bikes to work because he can't afford a home AND drive a car (and he'd rather have the home). If he were required to hire an attorney to represent him on his own dime, it would have been more advisable for him to just resign his career, because he'd have lost his home paying the legal fees. Thanks to the union, he kept his job and the school kept a great teacher.
 
2013-01-28 06:21:11 PM  

Brick-House: Baz the Spaz: Because, for every one of these stories, there are dozens of teachers in school districts across the country - good teachers - who are targeted by unethical bosses for termination for bad reasons or no reason at all.

I have heard this time and again as a reason for tenure, but again, there are legal means to deal with this that will protect the teacher from unlawful termination and harassment and a lot of good lawyers out there ready, willing, and very able to take these cases. And of course the side benefit of this is bringing light on the situation. That alone would most likely make any of this stop -- if it's really happening that is.


Have you ever sued an employer or former employer? The process is long, mentally draining, and EXPENSIVE. I know. I have sued a former employer. After $35k, three years of heartache, damage to my marriage, and tons of publicity (some not so positive), my case was thrown out by my state's supreme court. My lawyer said, "We have great facts, but the law is not on our side." Very few, if any, teachers would ever bring a lawsuit for harassment on the job because they don't have the means and the stamina to survive that. That's where the union comes in. The union is there to help keep these good teachers on the job.

Do the unions sometimes keep bad teachers on the job? Yup. And for that, they should be kicked in the ass. if my teacher's union ever did that, I'd be the first one doing the kicking.

But it does happen much more frequently that good teachers are harassed on the job. I only told you of one incident. I have personally witnessed at least a dozen others. And that is just in the three school districts I have worked in during my short ten year career. Still don't believe me? Go ahead. Ask any teacher. They'll have at least two such stories of their own to tell you.
 
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