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(NYPost)   1) Be a unionized New York City schoolteacher. 2) Sexually harass female students. 3) Profit   (nypost.com) divider line 95
    More: Obvious, United Federation of Teachers  
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9988 clicks; posted to Main » on 27 Jan 2013 at 5:43 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



95 Comments   (+0 »)
   
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2013-01-27 02:22:37 PM  
Instead of giving them busywork, why not just make them sit in the rubber room doing absolutely nothing?  Seems they'd go crazy or quit.
 
2013-01-27 05:45:32 PM  
I bet the harassment pays more than teaching gig. Plus there's the pervy fun!
 
2013-01-27 05:46:41 PM  
So we have this story from the Post about unions and The Sun's story about welfare. Rupert's machine is really well run. Got to get the message out.
 
2013-01-27 05:51:23 PM  

BarkingUnicorn: Instead of giving them busywork, why not just make them sit in the rubber room doing absolutely nothing?  Seems they'd go crazy or quit.


They do go crazy.
 
2013-01-27 05:53:30 PM  
Also, This American Life had a cool story about it, though, I do believe the city and the unions agreed to close those in 2010...
 
2013-01-27 05:55:01 PM  
You've got much worse in the police departments and they have a utility belt chock full of weapons and restraints.
 
2013-01-27 05:55:20 PM  
What's his Fark handle?
 
2013-01-27 05:57:20 PM  
Make him write out "I will not sexually harass my students" a million-billion times on a chalkboard. Make some other rubber room inmate count.
 
2013-01-27 05:57:54 PM  
There may have been a time when tenure and unions were needed in our public schools, but everything they say they protect you from has been codified by city, state and federal laws. So really, why do teachers need Tenure and Unions?

And this guy does look pervy.

www.nypost.com
 
2013-01-27 05:59:46 PM  
That was not what we were aiming for when we hired you for your finger picking skills.
 
2013-01-27 06:00:51 PM  
and for those of you who say you need to protect the teachers from the out of control students, wire all the class rooms and common areas with video surveillance. The price of these systems can easily be justified by the cost of one law suit that is dismissed before ever seeing the light of day.
 
2013-01-27 06:02:07 PM  
I'm confused, why hasn't he been prosecuted?
 
2013-01-27 06:02:37 PM  

generallyso: I'm confused, why hasn't he been prosecuted?


teachers union
 
2013-01-27 06:03:03 PM  
i156.photobucket.com

Required Farkism
 
2013-01-27 06:03:24 PM  
and we wonder why NYC is going bankrupt.
 
2013-01-27 06:05:53 PM  

Brick-House: There may have been a time when tenure and unions were needed in our public schools, but everything they say they protect you from has been codified by city, state and federal laws. So really, why do teachers need Tenure and Unions?

And this guy does look pervy.

[www.nypost.com image 300x300]


Just one example? Our union contract in my district states that a hard-cap of 36 students are to be in any one classroom at any time. However, the district is routinely placing up to 40 kids in a classroom. Despite being told that this was a contract violation, they disagreed, and have failed to correct the situation. The union is filing official paperwork with the state public employee relations board. In the absence of unions, do you really think that everyday teachers have the resources and legal know-how to rectify such blatant abuses of legal contractual agreements? Not likely.

I could list more, such as the teacher that was almost railroaded out of our school for "assaulting a student" when the reality was that the douchebag kid had cussed him out in class when told to stop talking during lecture, then braced himself inside the door frame and refused to leave when told to do so. Kid was a 6'2", 230 lb football linebacker, and the teacher was a psychics nerd. As the teacher walked him out the door, the kid flopped down to the ground (probably trying to be funny or cause a bigger scene) and hit his head on a metal railing outside the room, knocking him out cold. Teacher was suspended from his job pending investigation. Without the union protecting him and providing pro-bono legal help, he would have lost his career. BTW...he was an award-winning teacher who placed kids nationally in physics competitions. Thanks to the union, he's STILL a teacher there, and the kid (along with his lawsuit happy momma) got NOTHING...as it should be.

Anyway, two great reasons out of many that unions should still exist for teachers.
 
2013-01-27 06:06:08 PM  

SlothB77: and we wonder why NYC is going bankrupt.


Hey, the city has been busy getting things like this under control.

organicconnectmag.com

Although, I do wonder where they derive the authority for that.
 
2013-01-27 06:11:08 PM  

SubBass49: Brick-House: There may have been a time when tenure and unions were needed in our public schools, but everything they say they protect you from has been codified by city, state and federal laws. So really, why do teachers need Tenure and Unions?

And this guy does look pervy.

[www.nypost.com image 300x300]

Just one example? Our union contract in my district states that a hard-cap of 36 students are to be in any one classroom at any time. However, the district is routinely placing up to 40 kids in a classroom. Despite being told that this was a contract violation, they disagreed, and have failed to correct the situation. The union is filing official paperwork with the state public employee relations board. In the absence of unions, do you really think that everyday teachers have the resources and legal know-how to rectify such blatant abuses of legal contractual agreements? Not likely.

I could list more, such as the teacher that was almost railroaded out of our school for "assaulting a student" when the reality was that the douchebag kid had cussed him out in class when told to stop talking during lecture, then braced himself inside the door frame and refused to leave when told to do so. Kid was a 6'2", 230 lb football linebacker, and the teacher was a psychics nerd. As the teacher walked him out the door, the kid flopped down to the ground (probably trying to be funny or cause a bigger scene) and hit his head on a metal railing outside the room, knocking him out cold. Teacher was suspended from his job pending investigation. Without the union protecting him and providing pro-bono legal help, he would have lost his career. BTW...he was an award-winning teacher who placed kids nationally in physics competitions. Thanks to the union, he's STILL a teacher there, and the kid (along with his lawsuit happy momma) got NOTHING...as it should be.

Anyway, two great reasons out of many that unions should still exist for teachers.


First example, the school board which is elected needs to do their job and set class room size. If they fail to do that, vote the idiots out!

Second example, Video, Video, Video... All classrooms, the entrances to all class rooms, entrances to rest rooms, Hallways, and other common area need to be covered.
 
2013-01-27 06:12:47 PM  

SubBass49: Anyway, two great reasons out of many that unions should still exist for teachers.


Your purely fabricated stories do not in any way defend the actions of a "teacher" who has been paid for 10 years to do nothing because he is a danger to children, yet cannot be fired.
 
2013-01-27 06:12:59 PM  
She looks like a smokin' hot friend of mine before she got a nose job.

/she looked better after the nose job
//that thing was a rudder
 
2013-01-27 06:15:18 PM  

Brick-House: First example, the school board which is elected needs to do their job and set class room size. If they fail to do that, vote the idiots out!

Second example, Video, Video, Video... All classrooms, the entrances to all class rooms, entrances to rest rooms, Hallways, and other common area need to be covered.


1. The school board is the people responsible for going over the hard-cap. Voting them out does nothing to change the fact that our contracts are being ignored, and that students are being short-changed.

2. Video wouldn't have done the guy any good minus legal representation. The situation took place in the door-frame. Video...even GOOD video...wouldn't have shown what happened clearly enough to exonerate him.
 
2013-01-27 06:17:27 PM  

o5iiawah: SubBass49: Anyway, two great reasons out of many that unions should still exist for teachers.

Your purely fabricated stories do not in any way defend the actions of a "teacher" who has been paid for 10 years to do nothing because he is a danger to children, yet cannot be fired.


1. Stories not fabricated.

2. The douchebag in TFA hasn't been fired b/c someone there dropped the ball. He's an anomaly, not the norm. But I get it...end important protections and safeguards for ALL teachers because one douchebag's case wasn't followed up on. Got it. That'll certainly help bring qualified individuals into the teaching profession...knowing that you can be railroaded and fired without cause. You're a special kind of stupid, aren't you?
 
2013-01-27 06:23:16 PM  
Exclusive new story since 2010! at least! Too bad our collective short term memory isn't much more than a dogs. Maybe this could have been handled the first time it was published.

http://www.nypost.com/p/news/local/leazy_of_rubber_room_vJlavofm7uiZj m frTAgTxM
 
2013-01-27 06:26:10 PM  
Good thing this poor teacher isnt the victim of the cold-blooded private sector. Then he might not get paid $100,000 to be a data entry pedophile.
 
2013-01-27 06:29:39 PM  
From what I read; the cops failed to read the teacher his rights at some point. Yes, that should result in a case being thrown out.

Why didn't the district attorney refile the case?

Why is there a division of teachers deemed too dangerous to others to teach?

Why would the union fight for those teachers? Wouldn't that be a huge public relations fopaux?
 
2013-01-27 06:30:05 PM  

SubBass49: o5iiawah: SubBass49: Anyway, two great reasons out of many that unions should still exist for teachers.

Your purely fabricated stories do not in any way defend the actions of a "teacher" who has been paid for 10 years to do nothing because he is a danger to children, yet cannot be fired.

1. Stories not fabricated.

2. The douchebag in TFA hasn't been fired b/c someone there dropped the ball. He's an anomaly, not the norm. But I get it...end important protections and safeguards for ALL teachers because one douchebag's case wasn't followed up on. Got it. That'll certainly help bring qualified individuals into the teaching profession...knowing that you can be railroaded and fired without cause. You're a special kind of stupid, aren't you?


So the person at fault here is the administrator at the state who couldn't navigate the james-bond lasers in the treasure room amount of red tape required to fire a teacher, even one with borderline felonious charges. by the way, TFA mentions he was there in the "rubber room" pushing paper with 4 other individuals who were being held for similar reasons.

By the way, I never called for ending protections for all teachers, just an instrument such that a felon, pervert, potential sex offender or someone labeled as "dangerous" doesn't get to keep his cushy union job and even get promoted.

See, every time the union lets the state push a predator off the teacher rolls, that is one less duespayer and we cant have that, especially one with a pay increase and tenure.
 
2013-01-27 06:40:01 PM  

Brick-House: There may have been a time when tenure and unions were needed in our public schools, but everything they say they protect you from has been codified by city, state and federal laws. So really, why do teachers need Tenure and Unions?


Because, for every one of these stories, there are dozens of teachers in school districts across the country - good teachers - who are targeted by unethical bosses for termination for bad reasons or no reason at all. If they can't be terminated they are harassed mercilessly. Case in point: The district where I teach wanted to fire our longest serving teacher because she had been there for 34 years and was the highest paid (around $65k...no one is getting rich in our district except the administrators). When they couldn't bully her into retiring, they transferred her to the middle school from the high school, thinking that she would hate dealing with 7th and 8th graders so much she would quit. Too bad! Turns out she really likes teaching middle school and they are still stuck with her. She is nearing 40 years on the job and doing a great job according to her evaluations.Without tenure, school districts would practice illegal age discrimination and get away with it. I have other examples but this is a pretty common one.
 
2013-01-27 06:41:14 PM  

o5iiawah: SubBass49: o5iiawah: SubBass49: Anyway, two great reasons out of many that unions should still exist for teachers.

Your purely fabricated stories do not in any way defend the actions of a "teacher" who has been paid for 10 years to do nothing because he is a danger to children, yet cannot be fired.

1. Stories not fabricated.

2. The douchebag in TFA hasn't been fired b/c someone there dropped the ball. He's an anomaly, not the norm. But I get it...end important protections and safeguards for ALL teachers because one douchebag's case wasn't followed up on. Got it. That'll certainly help bring qualified individuals into the teaching profession...knowing that you can be railroaded and fired without cause. You're a special kind of stupid, aren't you?

So the person at fault here is the administrator at the state who couldn't navigate the james-bond lasers in the treasure room amount of red tape required to fire a teacher, even one with borderline felonious charges. by the way, TFA mentions he was there in the "rubber room" pushing paper with 4 other individuals who were being held for similar reasons.

By the way, I never called for ending protections for all teachers, just an instrument such that a felon, pervert, potential sex offender or someone labeled as "dangerous" doesn't get to keep his cushy union job and even get promoted.

See, every time the union lets the state push a predator off the teacher rolls, that is one less duespayer and we cant have that, especially one with a pay increase and tenure.


You missed the point. He could be fired, had people along the way not dropped the ball. It has nothing to do with having one less dues-paying member, as most states have more people TRYING to get teaching jobs than can be hired (usually due to budget cuts). Also, may I add that if you feel teaching is a "cuchy union job" I suggest you become a teacher. Otherwise, shut the fark up about it. The only people that think teaching is a "cushy union job" are people who have never taught.
 
2013-01-27 06:42:10 PM  

Baz the Spaz: Brick-House: There may have been a time when tenure and unions were needed in our public schools, but everything they say they protect you from has been codified by city, state and federal laws. So really, why do teachers need Tenure and Unions?

Because, for every one of these stories, there are dozens of teachers in school districts across the country - good teachers - who are targeted by unethical bosses for termination for bad reasons or no reason at all. If they can't be terminated they are harassed mercilessly. Case in point: The district where I teach wanted to fire our longest serving teacher because she had been there for 34 years and was the highest paid (around $65k...no one is getting rich in our district except the administrators). When they couldn't bully her into retiring, they transferred her to the middle school from the high school, thinking that she would hate dealing with 7th and 8th graders so much she would quit. Too bad! Turns out she really likes teaching middle school and they are still stuck with her. She is nearing 40 years on the job and doing a great job according to her evaluations.Without tenure, school districts would practice illegal age discrimination and get away with it. I have other examples but this is a pretty common one.


Smart post is smart.
 
2013-01-27 06:47:28 PM  
Simple question, how many taxpayers taxes are required to support this guy?
 
2013-01-27 06:48:06 PM  

SubBass49: The only people that think teaching is a "cushy union job" are people who have never taught.


I never said teaching was a cushy union job. But being a potential predator whilst still getting paid to sit in a room and push paper on account of being labeled dangerous is a cushy union job.
 
2013-01-27 06:48:12 PM  
He didn't profit because he was in the union, he profited because some idiot didn't follow a simple protocol when they tried to fired him and he got caught in a technicality.

But, then, the types of people who reflexively slam unions for existing aren't generally the types of people who would pass up an opportunity to exploit child sexual molestation so they can grind their own personal axe.

You people are going to be really pissed when you find out that if a cop does the same stupid thing during an arrest it could lead to a murderer or rapist being let go when the prosecutor winds up having to toss all the evidence collected during interrogations.
 
2013-01-27 06:52:51 PM  

Brick-House: generallyso: I'm confused, why hasn't he been prosecuted?

teachers union


Teachers union can't prevent prosecution. what you have here is a case where there's not enough evidence for a court trial or to fire him, but enough doubt you can't let him near kids.

Personally, I'd put him to work doing admin work. If he screws that up, THEN you can fire him.


o5iiawah: So the person at fault here is the administrator at the state who couldn't navigate the james-bond lasers in the treasure room amount of red tape required to fire a teacher, even one with borderline felonious charges. by the way, TFA mentions he was there in the "rubber room" pushing paper with 4 other individuals who were being held for similar reasons.


This is far from the first time NYC's 'rubber rooms' have been in the news. It actually wouldn't be that bad if you only had 5 teachers in this situation, the reality is that, at least at one point, they had approximately 5 classrooms full of them. ~30 per room.
 
2013-01-27 06:56:44 PM  
Thanks, SubBass49!
 
2013-01-27 06:57:05 PM  

o5iiawah: SubBass49: Anyway, two great reasons out of many that unions should still exist for teachers.

Your purely fabricated stories do not in any way defend the actions of a "teacher" who has been paid for 10 years to do nothing because he is a danger to children, yet cannot be fired.


Funny thing is his being on the dole is due to admin not doing the job properly, so basicly this is an administration mistake. Sure the unions protected him but that is their job.

IE
You have a lawyer on retainer and pay for them to always defend you, because you do something your lawyer knows you are guilty he can't throw you under a bus no matter how much he wants to because protecting you is "his/her" job. Same applies to the union, you pay them for protection but they can only protect you so much if you are wrong.

Sounds like the guy needs some jail time frankly... perhaps an axe in the head
 
2013-01-27 07:00:42 PM  

Brick-House: and for those of you who say you need to protect the teachers from the out of control students, wire all the class rooms and common areas with video surveillance. The price of these systems can easily be justified by the cost of one law suit that is dismissed before ever seeing the light of day.


Just fyi for those of you who haven't set foot inside a school in a while but feel the need to tell us all how to do our jobs each and every day: All common areas are already under video surveillance.
 
2013-01-27 07:00:51 PM  
FTFA: "He worked just one year as a full-time teacher in New York.... But a hearing officer who decides whether tenured teachers can be fired dismissed the case, ruling that Eller wasn't told his rights."

You can teach for one year at a New York public school and be tenured? Let me tell my friends busting their asses in academia.
 
2013-01-27 07:02:49 PM  

o5iiawah: I never said teaching was a cushy union job. But being a potential predator whilst still getting paid to sit in a room and push paper on account of being labeled dangerous is a cushy union job.


Or, you know, you could not make up stupid shiat and sound like you're retarded. It takes all of 10 seconds in Google to find that both the DoE and the union dislike the "rubber room" system and want to see it reformed. Another 10 seconds and you can even find this in the Wiki article on the topic:

In June of 2012 it was revealed that the New York State Education Department had not paid its arbitrators for several years, and collectively owed them millions of dollars for cases they had completed, or were in the process of hearing. In frustration, ten of the 24 arbitrators on the New York City panel have quit, while the remaining 14 refuse to hear any testimony or issue any decisions until their back wages have been paid in full. This could take several more years to negotiate, further exacerbating the backlog of reassigned teachers.


But, no, I'm sure it's all the union's fault somehow that the DoE isn't paying the people hearing the cases... yea... that's the ticket. Magic Union Gnome Powers. Or something. Right.
 
2013-01-27 07:04:41 PM  
Never ceases to amaze me how some can defend this.

Even if it was a technicality, he shouldnt be allowed to sit there for 10 years. A private sector position found wrong is rarely dinged for more than a years pay. This is 13 years. Only a liberal can defend this asinine result.
 
2013-01-27 07:05:21 PM  

Brick-House: generallyso: I'm confused, why hasn't he been prosecuted?

teachers union


Yes, sweetie, it's the big, evil unions that are the problem with America. Citizens shouldn't be allowed to band together. Government should only serve corporate citizens, not actual citizens.

Brick-house: helping to ensure an entire generation never votes Republican.
 
2013-01-27 07:06:19 PM  

Brick-House: Second example, Video, Video, Video... All classrooms, the entrances to all class rooms, entrances to rest rooms, Hallways, and other common area need to be covered.


THEY ALREADY ARE.
 
2013-01-27 07:08:13 PM  

JonZoidberg: FTFA: "He worked just one year as a full-time teacher in New York.... But a hearing officer who decides whether tenured teachers can be fired dismissed the case, ruling that Eller wasn't told his rights."

You can teach for one year at a New York public school and be tenured? Let me tell my friends busting their asses in academia.


Different from tenure-tracks in substantial ways, and "tenure" is frequently used for public school teachers to make the job security seem substantially greater despite a wealth of difference in what "tenure" could mean state to state, especially as there are plenty of states which have nothing similar. The reality is teachers eventually get professional contracts which allow them due process before being fired, possible remediation.

I am highly doubtful this teacher received a professional contract of any sort, at least while the process was ongoing, and instead cannot be fired because he would bring a suit with regards to his having only been suspected of unethical or possibly illegal behaviors and therefore unduly fired. Earliest I know of is three years.
 
2013-01-27 07:08:33 PM  
Why are unions important? I teach at the college level, which does not have collective bargaining in this right-to-work state. One of our vocational instructors, who had been there for decades and had created that particular program from scratch, missed a lot of days because he was in the hospital being treated for cancer. When he came back he was fired because his program wasn't performing adequately. He was six months short of qualifying for retirement.
 
2013-01-27 07:12:54 PM  

Vegan Meat Popsicle: o5iiawah: I never said teaching was a cushy union job. But being a potential predator whilst still getting paid to sit in a room and push paper on account of being labeled dangerous is a cushy union job.

Or, you know, you could not make up stupid shiat and sound like you're retarded. It takes all of 10 seconds in Google to find that both the DoE and the union dislike the "rubber room" system and want to see it reformed. Another 10 seconds and you can even find this in the Wiki article on the topic:

In June of 2012 it was revealed that the New York State Education Department had not paid its arbitrators for several years, and collectively owed them millions of dollars for cases they had completed, or were in the process of hearing. In frustration, ten of the 24 arbitrators on the New York City panel have quit, while the remaining 14 refuse to hear any testimony or issue any decisions until their back wages have been paid in full. This could take several more years to negotiate, further exacerbating the backlog of reassigned teachers.

But, no, I'm sure it's all the union's fault somehow that the DoE isn't paying the people hearing the cases... yea... that's the ticket. Magic Union Gnome Powers. Or something. Right.


And who is causing the work backlog for arbitrarion? Unions. They know the system is slow. They tell their clients this with the intention of years of payment until arbitration.

There was just a story a few months ago in the la times about this. Unoon officials intentionally slow down the process to the point that it is cheaper for the rubber rooms.
 
2013-01-27 07:13:13 PM  

revrendjim: Why are unions important? I teach at the college level, which does not have collective bargaining in this right-to-work state. One of our vocational instructors, who had been there for decades and had created that particular program from scratch, missed a lot of days because he was in the hospital being treated for cancer. When he came back he was fired because his program wasn't performing adequately. He was six months short of qualifying for retirement.


And this happens in public schools more than anyone wants to admit. But it's oh so much easier to rail about DEM EBIL UNIONZ! than to actually address the real problems in this country when it comes to education.
 
2013-01-27 07:14:11 PM  

Banacek: So we have this story from the Post about unions and The Sun's story about welfare. Rupert's machine is really well run. Got to get the message out.


Exactly. A little child molestation is nothing compared to the importance of the Progressive message.
 
2013-01-27 07:14:40 PM  

ghare: Brick-House: generallyso: I'm confused, why hasn't he been prosecuted?

teachers union

Yes, sweetie, it's the big, evil unions that are the problem with America. Citizens shouldn't be allowed to band together. Government should only serve corporate citizens, not actual citizens.


Rest assured, this New York Post article is a thinly veiled union hit-piece. "Let's find an outlier and use it to argue that all unions are bad! Wow, BONUS, he's a perv! Unions are TOTALLY EVIL!!!"

And people read this shiat and eat it up, like they believe in magnetic moon rings and homeopathic cancer vitamins.
 
2013-01-27 07:18:07 PM  
UNIONS!!!!

OOOGA BOOGA!!!!!
 
2013-01-27 07:18:44 PM  

MyRandomName: And who is causing the work backlog for arbitrarion? Unions. They know the system is slow. They tell their clients this with the intention of years of payment until arbitration.

There was just a story a few months ago in the la times about this. Unoon officials intentionally slow down the process to the point that it is cheaper for the rubber rooms.


I'm sure you have evidence to back all these claims. I'll just wait patiently while you compile it.

contentedcows.com
 
2013-01-27 07:20:26 PM  
In California, you can spoonfeed semen laced cookies to your students and get paid $40,000 to retire with full pension and benefits totaling almost $4,000 per month. For life. A small downside of teacher unions in California.

/Rot in hell Mark Berndt
 
2013-01-27 07:21:57 PM  

Vegan Meat Popsicle: MyRandomName: Even if it was a technicality, he shouldnt be allowed to sit there for 10 years. A private sector position found wrong is rarely dinged for more than a years pay. This is 13 years. Only a liberal can defend this asinine result.

Do you ever post anything that isn't brain-achingly stupid?


So you have no defense of allowing someone 13 years of pay on a technocality?

Grow up.
 
2013-01-27 07:22:20 PM  

Badafuco: In California, you can spoonfeed semen laced cookies to your students and get paid $40,000 to retire with full pension and benefits totaling almost $4,000 per month. For life. A small downside of teacher unions in California.

/Rot in hell Mark Berndt


As a wise Stiletto once said, "Let's find an outlier and use it to argue that all unions are bad! Wow, BONUS, he's a perv! Unions are TOTALLY EVIL!!!"
 
2013-01-27 07:23:48 PM  

Banacek: So we have this story from the Post about unions and The Sun's story about welfare. Rupert's machine is really well run. Got to get the message out.


workers bad. management good
 
2013-01-27 07:25:43 PM  

Brick-House: SubBass49: Brick-House: There may have been a time when tenure and unions were needed in our public schools, but everything they say they protect you from has been codified by city, state and federal laws. So really, why do teachers need Tenure and Unions?

And this guy does look pervy.

[www.nypost.com image 300x300]

Just one example? Our union contract in my district states that a hard-cap of 36 students are to be in any one classroom at any time. However, the district is routinely placing up to 40 kids in a classroom. Despite being told that this was a contract violation, they disagreed, and have failed to correct the situation. The union is filing official paperwork with the state public employee relations board. In the absence of unions, do you really think that everyday teachers have the resources and legal know-how to rectify such blatant abuses of legal contractual agreements? Not likely.

I could list more, such as the teacher that was almost railroaded out of our school for "assaulting a student" when the reality was that the douchebag kid had cussed him out in class when told to stop talking during lecture, then braced himself inside the door frame and refused to leave when told to do so. Kid was a 6'2", 230 lb football linebacker, and the teacher was a psychics nerd. As the teacher walked him out the door, the kid flopped down to the ground (probably trying to be funny or cause a bigger scene) and hit his head on a metal railing outside the room, knocking him out cold. Teacher was suspended from his job pending investigation. Without the union protecting him and providing pro-bono legal help, he would have lost his career. BTW...he was an award-winning teacher who placed kids nationally in physics competitions. Thanks to the union, he's STILL a teacher there, and the kid (along with his lawsuit happy momma) got NOTHING...as it should be.

Anyway, two great reasons out of many that unions should still exist for teachers.

First example, the s ...


Back in my day we didn't need video caneras everywhere.

laist.com
 
2013-01-27 07:28:35 PM  

Hobodeluxe: Banacek: So we have this story from the Post about unions and The Sun's story about welfare. Rupert's machine is really well run. Got to get the message out.

workers bad. management good


Correction: The message is: "workers bad. owners good"

Subtle but important distinction. Low level managers are often as much victims of big business's greed as workers are.
 
2013-01-27 07:29:26 PM  

SubBass49: o5iiawah: SubBass49: Anyway, two great reasons out of many that unions should still exist for teachers.

Your purely fabricated stories do not in any way defend the actions of a "teacher" who has been paid for 10 years to do nothing because he is a danger to children, yet cannot be fired.

1. Stories not fabricated.


If you say so. Your word is good enough for me upon which to base an opinion.
 
2013-01-27 07:31:40 PM  

tcan: Simple question, how many taxpayers taxes are required to support this guy?


Paul Krugman, therefore the question in irrelevant.
 
2013-01-27 07:33:30 PM  

GORDON: SubBass49: o5iiawah: SubBass49: Anyway, two great reasons out of many that unions should still exist for teachers.

Your purely fabricated stories do not in any way defend the actions of a "teacher" who has been paid for 10 years to do nothing because he is a danger to children, yet cannot be fired.

1. Stories not fabricated.


If you say so. Your word is good enough for me upon which to base an opinion.


I have heard many similar stories from other teachers. I doubt they are all making them up. Then again, I'm not a crazy person.
 
2013-01-27 07:36:00 PM  

tcan: Simple question, how many taxpayers taxes are required to support this guy?


Far fewer than how many taxpayers' taxes it takes to buy a single F-35 joint strike fighter. But you'll never see Murdoch publish a hit piece about that waste of tax money...
 
2013-01-27 07:42:39 PM  

dave2198: Smart people don't become teachers, because the pay is shiatty, the hours are long, and they know people like you are trying to fark them over every chance you get.


I resent this broad generalization. The vast majority of smart people do not become teachers, which is exactly why I became a teacher; I don't trust most people to teach.
 
2013-01-27 07:43:05 PM  
Thank god for unions
 
2013-01-27 07:45:45 PM  

Vangor: dave2198: Smart people don't become teachers, because the pay is shiatty, the hours are long, and they know people like you are trying to fark them over every chance you get.

I resent this broad generalization. The vast majority of smart people do not become teachers, which is exactly why I became a teacher; I don't trust most people to teach.


No disrespect intended. I apologize, I shouldn't have made the generalization.

However, I know a few people who would have made great teachers, who were scared away by the recent witch-hunts.
 
2013-01-27 07:52:57 PM  

Banacek: So we have this story from the Post about unions and The Sun's story about welfare. Rupert's machine is really well run. Got to get the message out.


Between this hit piece on unions and the Sun'shiat piece on government benefits recipients, all we need to complete the trifecta is a Wall Street Journal article about how a brave, bootstrapping business owner rescued 10 puppies from a river DESPITE the hardship Obamacare caused him.
 
2013-01-27 08:00:16 PM  

dave2198: Vangor: dave2198: Smart people don't become teachers, because the pay is shiatty, the hours are long, and they know people like you are trying to fark them over every chance you get.

I resent this broad generalization. The vast majority of smart people do not become teachers, which is exactly why I became a teacher; I don't trust most people to teach.

No disrespect intended. I apologize, I shouldn't have made the generalization.

However, I know a few people who would have made great teachers, who were scared away by the recent witch-hunts.


Mostly messing with you. My professors were great people who helped me suffer through the lack of experience, intellect, curiosity, basic skills, etc., of my classmates. The problem is we have people fresh from school who remember school as such a great experience to be replicated but were never motivated to do anything other than teach* as well as a host of parents who view teaching as a natural extension of child-rearing either when children are of school age or have left home. Our result is little connection to real world , stagnation of methodologies, sense of knowledge of pedagogy and content which resists training, outdated motivational practices and familial expectations, and blunted skills and knowledge from prolonged disuse. Good news is the best of my peers have positions or have retained positions whereas the worst have not.

*I do not mean to be motivated to teach is somehow low but rather this colors beliefs on the intent of school. When people are motivated to further biology research, practice medicine, etc., but return afterward to teach, the intent of school becomes to prepare other people for positions outside of school; teachers saw school as the process to become a teacher which involves broad, shallow, detached academic ability and skills. At least, this has been my view as I despised school and only returned because I saw the need in gifted education policy and advocacy.
 
2013-01-27 08:00:39 PM  

Vegan Meat Popsicle: He didn't profit because he was in the union, he profited because some idiot didn't follow a simple protocol when they tried to fired him and he got caught in a technicality.


And how do you think the technicality got there, and appears to be a technicality unique to large urban public education systems - mainly NYC?
 
2013-01-27 08:02:33 PM  

stiletto_the_wise: Banacek: So we have this story from the Post about unions and The Sun's story about welfare. Rupert's machine is really well run. Got to get the message out.

Between this hit piece on unions and the Sun'shiat piece on government benefits recipients, all we need to complete the trifecta is a Wall Street Journal article about how a brave, bootstrapping business owner rescued 10 puppies from a river DESPITE the hardship Obamacare caused him.


They don't even hide it. All they care about is getting the message across. The fact that people will get in a frenzy over unions about this means the message is working.
 
2013-01-27 08:06:31 PM  
Stating that in todays world, there is no need for Tenure and Teachers Unions is like throwing rocks at a hornet's nest.

www.exoduspestcontrol.com
 
2013-01-27 08:13:45 PM  

Baz the Spaz: Because, for every one of these stories, there are dozens of teachers in school districts across the country - good teachers - who are targeted by unethical bosses for termination for bad reasons or no reason at all.


I have heard this time and again as a reason for tenure, but again, there are legal means to deal with this that will protect the teacher from unlawful termination and harassment and a lot of good lawyers out there ready, willing, and very able to take these cases. And of course the side benefit of this is bringing light on the situation. That alone would most likely make any of this stop -- if it's really happening that is.

theresilientearth.com
 
2013-01-27 08:18:46 PM  

Brick-House: Stating that in todays world, there is no need for Tenure and Teachers Unions is like throwing rocks at a hornet's nest saying something else that is also stupid.

[www.exoduspestcontrol.com image 300x225]


Next?
 
2013-01-27 08:29:02 PM  

MyRandomName: So you have no defense of allowing someone 13 years of pay on a technocality?


No, why would I try to defend a poorly designed system that routinely fails everybody involved? Because you made up a stupid strawman about "libs! libs! libs!" - same as every other thread you've ever posted in - and expected somebody in this thread to justify it for you?

Still waiting on those citations for your last series of BS allegations, by the way.

Gulper Eel: And how do you think the technicality got there, and appears to be a technicality unique to large urban public education systems - mainly NYC?


I don't know, but maybe you should ask the DoE that put the "rubber room" system in place, hired the arbitrators that are supposed to work the cases and then failed to pay those arbitrators for years until nearly half of them quit and the rest started refusing to hear cases until they were given their owed backpay.

But, no, I'm sure it's all somehow the fault of "unions" anyway. I'm sure baseless insinuations become facts if you try hard enough.
 
2013-01-27 08:33:59 PM  

Brick-House: I have heard this time and again as a reason for tenure, but again, there are legal means to deal with this that will protect the teacher from unlawful termination and harassment and a lot of good lawyers out there ready, willing, and very able to take these cases. And of course the side benefit of this is bringing light on the situation. That alone would most likely make any of this stop -- if it's really happening that is.


Thanks to the magic of at-will employment, very, very little counts as unlawful termination. You have no right to keep your job. A company may fire you for any reason or no reason. It's you (with very little defense) vs. the corporation (who has comparative limitless resources to use against you). This imbalance is an intentional part of the system. This alone is enough to validate the need for unions. The ability to go many vs. many instead of one vs. many is the primary benefit of a union.
 
2013-01-27 08:42:32 PM  

BarkingUnicorn: Instead of giving them busywork, why not just make them sit in the rubber room doing absolutely nothing?  Seems they'd go crazy or quit.


make them shovel snow and rake rocks.


stiletto_the_wise: You have no right to keep your job.


why would I want a right to keep a job, or a duty to keep someone I don't want working for me employed?
I use contracts for that. why can't you?
 
2013-01-27 08:45:58 PM  

relcec: BarkingUnicorn: Instead of giving them busywork, why not just make them sit in the rubber room doing absolutely nothing?  Seems they'd go crazy or quit.

make them shovel snow and rake rocks.


stiletto_the_wise: You have no right to keep your job.

why would I want a right to keep a job, or a duty to keep someone I don't want working for me employed?
I use contracts for that. why can't you?


They do, but for some strange reason, school districts keep failing to live up to their end.

If only there was some way for teachers to band together, to stop such abuse by increasing their bargaining power?
 
2013-01-27 08:52:34 PM  

dave2198: why would I want a right to keep a job, or a duty to keep someone I don't want working for me employed?
I use contracts for that. why can't you?

They do



oh, I guess she's just unaware that such thing as a legally enforceable set of bilateral promises between parties even exists. shocking.
 
2013-01-27 08:53:15 PM  

stiletto_the_wise: Brick-House: I have heard this time and again as a reason for tenure, but again, there are legal means to deal with this that will protect the teacher from unlawful termination and harassment and a lot of good lawyers out there ready, willing, and very able to take these cases. And of course the side benefit of this is bringing light on the situation. That alone would most likely make any of this stop -- if it's really happening that is.

Thanks to the magic of at-will employment, very, very little counts as unlawful termination. You have no right to keep your job. A company may fire you for any reason or no reason. It's you (with very little defense) vs. the corporation (who has comparative limitless resources to use against you). This imbalance is an intentional part of the system. This alone is enough to validate the need for unions. The ability to go many vs. many instead of one vs. many is the primary benefit of a union.


So, is it really that hard for teachers to get along with their supervisors?
 
2013-01-27 08:57:15 PM  

relcec: oh, I guess she's just unaware that such thing as a legally enforceable set of bilateral promises between parties even exists. shocking.


It's that I'm unaware of a universe where a single person generally has a chance of fighting a gigantic corporation in court on a level playing field. And I'm a guy. Thanks.
 
2013-01-27 08:59:57 PM  

relcec: dave2198: why would I want a right to keep a job, or a duty to keep someone I don't want working for me employed?
I use contracts for that. why can't you?

They do


oh, I guess she's just unaware that such thing as a legally enforceable set of bilateral promises between parties even exists. shocking.


Hahahaha. Oh wait, you're serious?

Wow, contracts are enforceable by law. What a novel concept. I'm sure that will clear this mess right up. You should probably tell that to the teachers, I'm sure they haven't thought of it.
 
2013-01-27 09:02:52 PM  

Brick-House: stiletto_the_wise: Brick-House: I have heard this time and again as a reason for tenure, but again, there are legal means to deal with this that will protect the teacher from unlawful termination and harassment and a lot of good lawyers out there ready, willing, and very able to take these cases. And of course the side benefit of this is bringing light on the situation. That alone would most likely make any of this stop -- if it's really happening that is.

Thanks to the magic of at-will employment, very, very little counts as unlawful termination. You have no right to keep your job. A company may fire you for any reason or no reason. It's you (with very little defense) vs. the corporation (who has comparative limitless resources to use against you). This imbalance is an intentional part of the system. This alone is enough to validate the need for unions. The ability to go many vs. many instead of one vs. many is the primary benefit of a union.

So, is it really that hard for teachers to get along with their supervisors?


If you don't know anything about a subject, you should probably stop discussing it.

And you clearly don't know anything about this subject.
 
2013-01-27 09:06:26 PM  

stiletto_the_wise: relcec: oh, I guess she's just unaware that such thing as a legally enforceable set of bilateral promises between parties even exists. shocking.

It's that I'm unaware of a universe where a single person generally has a chance of fighting a gigantic corporation in court on a level playing field. And I'm a guy. Thanks.


the court won't enforce your employment because you are just a person? bullshiat.
are you sure it isn't that your skills or so common place you couldn't hope be anything more than a cog in someone else's machine?
listen, you are the same person that is demanding we constantly increase the labor supply in this country when we don;t even have enough jobs for our own.
you don't like competing in a constantly increasing labor pool? get a marketable skill, get an education, or stop begging for this country to import people to compete with you and enrich the capitalist class at your expense. we'd have massively tightening labor supply right now with its attendant significant increase in your bargaining power and wages with the retirement of the baby boom generation if it were not for people exactly like you. whatever you do, quit biatching about the situation you created. you made this bed, now sleep in it.
 
2013-01-27 09:07:11 PM  
Unions! Whargarbl!

Kindly fark back off to Politics subby.
 
2013-01-27 09:24:48 PM  

relcec: the court won't enforce your employment because you are just a person? bullshiat.


When it comes to the civil courts, you've got to pay to play. That's why patents are pretty much useless to the small-time single inventor, but massively important to large corporations. In lawsuits it's bankroll vs. bankroll.

relcec: listen, you are the same person that is demanding we constantly increase the labor supply in this country when we don;t even have enough jobs for our own.
you don't like competing in a constantly increasing labor pool? get a marketable skill, get an education, or stop begging for this country to import people to compete with you and enrich the capitalist class at your expense. we'd have massively tightening labor supply right now with its attendant significant increase in your bargaining power and wages with the retirement of the baby boom generation if it were not for people exactly like you. whatever you do, quit biatching about the situation you created. you made this bed, now sleep in it.


Well, first let me say I'm flattered that someone tracks my posts from thread to thread. I do advocate for increasing the labor supply in the USA, since I'd rather see work be done here than offshore, and many industries here have a lack of skilled workers. But I also advocate for the labor supply to cooperate instead of compete, because we have a common adversary.

The capital class will do just fine, regardless of whether I work for their corporations or someone else does. Due to the nature of capitalism (ownership of business goes to he who already has money), the system is rigged permanently in their favor. I think the rest of us would all be better off united and able to collectively demand things like pensions, fewer hours, safer working conditions, etc. Having more people in the workforce makes such a collective arrangement stronger, not weaker, but only if they buy into the idea and choose to take part.

The worst situation would be a country full of freelancers, competing with each other rather than cooperating, driving the value of labor down and cementing the capital class into their positions.
 
2013-01-27 09:29:10 PM  
So on which days of the week are teachers Union Thugs, and on which days are we supposed to give them guns?
 
2013-01-27 09:32:03 PM  
Brick-House (farkied: Dumb as a brick): There may have been a time when tenure and unions were needed in our public schools, but everything they say they protect you from has been codified by city, state and federal laws.

Which the Publicans are busily trying to dismantle.
 
2013-01-27 09:35:12 PM  

dave2198: If you don't know anything about a subject, you should probably stop discussing it.

And you clearly don't know anything about this subject.


What I do know is that people will hold on to any excuse if they believe it helps them to keep their jobs. But in a the end, all it does if drive up the cost of educating our children, if you call the current graduations rates educating our children.

www.data360.org
 
2013-01-27 09:41:33 PM  

Brick-House: dave2198: If you don't know anything about a subject, you should probably stop discussing it.

And you clearly don't know anything about this subject.

What I do know is that people will hold on to any excuse if they believe it helps them to keep their jobs. But in a the end, all it does if drive up the cost of educating our children, if you call the current graduations rates educating our children.

[www.data360.org image 500x350]


Hahaha...awesome...you used a graph that supports higher pay and teacher unionization! LULZ!!!
 
2013-01-27 09:48:34 PM  

Brick-House: dave2198: If you don't know anything about a subject, you should probably stop discussing it.

And you clearly don't know anything about this subject.

What I do know is that people will hold on to any excuse if they believe it helps them to keep their jobs. But in a the end, all it does if drive up the cost of educating our children, if you call the current graduations rates educating our children.

[www.data360.org image 500x350]


Which of those nations that perform better than us have unionized teachers?

Only those ranked #1, #2, #3, #4, #5, #6, #7, & #8...the ones above the OECD average...lol
 
2013-01-27 09:49:36 PM  
The ones below the average have unions too, but the funniest part is that you of all people posted that graph as some sort of argument against unions...classic...
 
2013-01-27 10:35:52 PM  

SubBass49: o5iiawah: SubBass49: Anyway, two great reasons out of many that unions should still exist for teachers.

Your purely fabricated stories do not in any way defend the actions of a "teacher" who has been paid for 10 years to do nothing because he is a danger to children, yet cannot be fired.

1. Stories not fabricated.

2. The douchebag in TFA hasn't been fired b/c someone there dropped the ball. He's an anomaly, not the norm. But I get it...end important protections and safeguards for ALL teachers because one douchebag's case wasn't followed up on. Got it. That'll certainly help bring qualified individuals into the teaching profession...knowing that you can be railroaded and fired without cause. You're a special kind of stupid, aren't you?


now you know how we gun people feel.
 
2013-01-27 10:39:14 PM  

Gulper Eel: Vegan Meat Popsicle: He didn't profit because he was in the union, he profited because some idiot didn't follow a simple protocol when they tried to fired him and he got caught in a technicality.

And how do you think the technicality got there, and appears to be a technicality unique to large urban public education systems - mainly NYC?


The technicality is there due to the SCOTUS decision in Miranda v. Arizona.
 
2013-01-27 11:07:45 PM  

stiletto_the_wise: Well, first let me say I'm flattered that someone tracks my posts from thread to thread. I do advocate for increasing the labor supply in the USA, since I'd rather see work be done here than offshore, and many industries here have a lack of skilled workers.


sure, I know you. you're the dude that turned the u.s. it industry from a promising and lucrative profession into cubicle slave labor in less than 20 years. take a einstein.
 
2013-01-28 02:45:56 AM  

SubBass49: 2. Video wouldn't have done the guy any good minus legal representation. The situation took place in the door-frame. Video...even GOOD video...wouldn't have shown what happened clearly enough to exonerate him.


What did exonerate him?
 
2013-01-28 10:39:13 AM  
Ah, yes, the ever present suggestion that an occasional jackass out of tens of thousands of teachers is enough to discredit unions.

Farking working class people, always trying to do what's best for them and their families. Don't they realize that security and a shot at a decent retirement is for the rich?
 
2013-01-28 12:41:23 PM  
Ain't no argument-thread condescension like teachers' union argument-thread condescension.
 
2013-01-28 06:19:26 PM  

Dokushin: SubBass49: 2. Video wouldn't have done the guy any good minus legal representation. The situation took place in the door-frame. Video...even GOOD video...wouldn't have shown what happened clearly enough to exonerate him.

What did exonerate him?


Witness statements, the hard work of union legal experts, etc. This is a guy that walks or bikes to work because he can't afford a home AND drive a car (and he'd rather have the home). If he were required to hire an attorney to represent him on his own dime, it would have been more advisable for him to just resign his career, because he'd have lost his home paying the legal fees. Thanks to the union, he kept his job and the school kept a great teacher.
 
2013-01-28 06:21:11 PM  

Brick-House: Baz the Spaz: Because, for every one of these stories, there are dozens of teachers in school districts across the country - good teachers - who are targeted by unethical bosses for termination for bad reasons or no reason at all.

I have heard this time and again as a reason for tenure, but again, there are legal means to deal with this that will protect the teacher from unlawful termination and harassment and a lot of good lawyers out there ready, willing, and very able to take these cases. And of course the side benefit of this is bringing light on the situation. That alone would most likely make any of this stop -- if it's really happening that is.


Have you ever sued an employer or former employer? The process is long, mentally draining, and EXPENSIVE. I know. I have sued a former employer. After $35k, three years of heartache, damage to my marriage, and tons of publicity (some not so positive), my case was thrown out by my state's supreme court. My lawyer said, "We have great facts, but the law is not on our side." Very few, if any, teachers would ever bring a lawsuit for harassment on the job because they don't have the means and the stamina to survive that. That's where the union comes in. The union is there to help keep these good teachers on the job.

Do the unions sometimes keep bad teachers on the job? Yup. And for that, they should be kicked in the ass. if my teacher's union ever did that, I'd be the first one doing the kicking.

But it does happen much more frequently that good teachers are harassed on the job. I only told you of one incident. I have personally witnessed at least a dozen others. And that is just in the three school districts I have worked in during my short ten year career. Still don't believe me? Go ahead. Ask any teacher. They'll have at least two such stories of their own to tell you.
 
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