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(Chicago Trib)   Chicago, with the nation's strictest gun laws, would like to point out that 1 of the 7 homicides last night was a stabbing. No gun was used in that killing   (chicagotribune.com) divider line 451
    More: Sad, Chicago, stabbing, homicides, gun laws, stab wound, Chicago Police Department, Englewood  
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4557 clicks; posted to Main » on 27 Jan 2013 at 12:30 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-01-27 01:31:34 PM
70% of childbirth's in Chicago are to unwed mother's.......There's your smoking gun.
 
2013-01-27 01:31:50 PM

Great Odins Raven: Do people still think that Chicago's violence is because of guns? Sometimes the racist explanation is the correct one, like it or not.


It's full of Blah people!!!

Because everyone knows NYC doesn't have any blah people.
 
2013-01-27 01:32:08 PM

Greylight: Gun laws and restrictions are part of an effective strategy to prevent gun violence. Canadians have more hurdles to owning certain classes of arms, but can still own them. Compare gun related deaths between the two countries, I bet no one even needs to look it up to know that laws and regulations can work.

It's not about banning weapons, it's about regulating them to balance public safety and ownership. You can have both respectively if y'all could stop this inane partisan douchery.


Gun control isn't going to drastically reduce violence in the U.S. I'm a gun control advocate. The biggest problem lies in our culture. Violence is socially acceptable in the U.S. If it turned us off that much, something would have been done about it long ago. But, no. Hell, in some cases, criminals are revered here. There are also economic, environmental, and mental health aspects to gun violence. People in "hot spots" for gun violence in the U.S. don't put nearly the same value on life as the rest of us first world problem havers would.
 
2013-01-27 01:33:07 PM

jaytkay: Mikey1969: bronyaur1: The NRA dummies keep pounding the pathetic argument that because Chicago has bad gun violence problems and its leaders have pursued gun restrictions, therefore the pursuit of gun restrictions causes gun violence.

Try to follow along. They are pointing out that taking away the guns is NOT reducing the crime.

Since Chicago's 30 year handgun ban ended, gun violence has soared.

Anybody trying to use Chicago as "proof" for or against gun laws is an asshole.


Well, let's look at the murders in Chicago:

1965: 395
1974: 970
1990: 851
1991: 927
1992: 943
1993: 855
1994: 931
1995: 828
1996: 796
1997: 761
1998: 704
1999: 643
2000: 633
2001: 667
2002: 656
2003: 601
2004: 453
2005: 451
2006: 471
2007: 448
2008: 513
2009: 459
2010: 436
2011: 435
2012: 506

The gun ban ended in 2010, right? Since then, there is 1 year that was higher than 2010, and going back to '90, there are only 4 years that were lower than 2012. In fact, all of the rest had 100 more murders than this "soaring" year. Well into your '30 year ban', you had 800 or 900 murders a year, now you have 506. 506 is less than 800, so there is going to have to be a LOT more soaring before you will have a point.

Link
 
2013-01-27 01:33:11 PM

EnderX: 70% of childbirth's in Chicago are to unwed mother's.......There's your smoking gun.


I think it's more about poverty than that myself.
 
2013-01-27 01:33:33 PM

jaytkay: Crime plummeted in Chicago during the 30-year handgun ban.


Fark It: Utter bullshiat.


It's cute when emotional, ill-informed people try to make a lucid argument. Handguns were banned from 1982 to 2010

Murders in Chicago by year
1965:395
1974:970
1990:851
1991:927
1992:943
1993:855
1994:931
1995:828
1996:796
1997:761
1998:704
1999:643
2000:633
2001:667
2002:656
2003:601
2004:453
2005:451
2006:471
2007:448
2008:513
2009:459
2010:436
2011:435
2012:506
 
2013-01-27 01:34:17 PM

Mikey1969: jaytkay: Mikey1969: bronyaur1: The NRA dummies keep pounding the pathetic argument that because Chicago has bad gun violence problems and its leaders have pursued gun restrictions, therefore the pursuit of gun restrictions causes gun violence.

Try to follow along. They are pointing out that taking away the guns is NOT reducing the crime.

Since Chicago's 30 year handgun ban ended, gun violence has soared.

Anybody trying to use Chicago as "proof" for or against gun laws is an asshole.

Well, let's look at the murders in Chicago:

1965: 395
1974: 970
1990: 851
1991: 927
1992: 943
1993: 855
1994: 931
1995: 828
1996: 796
1997: 761
1998: 704
1999: 643
2000: 633
2001: 667
2002: 656
2003: 601
2004: 453
2005: 451
2006: 471
2007: 448
2008: 513
2009: 459
2010: 436
2011: 435
2012: 506

The gun ban ended in 2010, right? Since then, there is 1 year that was higher than 2010, and going back to '90, there are only 4 years that were lower than 2012. In fact, all of the rest had 100 more murders than this "soaring" year. Well into your '30 year ban', you had 800 or 900 murders a year, now you have 506. 506 is less than 800, so there is going to have to be a LOT more soaring before you will have a point.

Link


What happened between 2003 and 2004?
 
2013-01-27 01:35:15 PM

Mrbogey: When there's a trend downward and when it jumps up right around the time the ban takes effect, most would be hesitant to consider bans a success.


Chicago's gun ban was lifted before the recent uptick.

The ban was in 1982.
 
2013-01-27 01:35:36 PM

Mrtraveler01: KidneyStone: /also against rabid animals and elephants in Palm Bay, Florida

I see your problem.


I moved from there back in 1992

/Palm Bay is not somewhere I'd willingly live again
 
2013-01-27 01:37:11 PM

Mrbogey: The pursuit of gun control does nothing to lower violence. The point of gun control is supposed to be to lower violence. The result of gun control is people have on average fewer guns and criminals have more than the average person (all other criminal factors except for possession of gun being equal).


No, that's wrong. If we just pass gun laws, the criminals will stop using guns. They already only use guns in legal ways and obtain them 100% legally. Guns that are stolen, bought by a strawman, or on the black market are NEVER used for crime, and since they don't use legal guns illegally, there actually is no such thing as "gun violence".
 
2013-01-27 01:37:30 PM

vpb: Somacandra: Gee, its almost as if the reality of guns in an urban setting (where everyone is spatially compressed and differential social problems are thus magnified) is far different from the reality of guns in a rural setting.

Sure it is, that's why cities need stricter gun control than rural areas.  The only real use for a gun in a city is as a weapon against people.  There aren't any deer or quail.


I guess you could say the same thing for the 1st Amendment, can't have people speaking their mind in a crowded area, someone will get upset.
 
2013-01-27 01:37:44 PM
As pointed out by a thoughtful gun rights advocate up thread: not only do Canada's arms laws and restrictions result in fewer gun related fatalities, it also results in less gang and drug war problems.
 
2013-01-27 01:38:25 PM

Mrtraveler01: drjekel_mrhyde: Johnnies in Elmwood park for beef Gino's East for pizza

I've seen Al's Beef on TV. Is that any good by comparison?

And the only place I've eaten deep-dish wise is Giorodano's. How does Gino's East compare to that?


Al's is pretty good but like Giorodano's they have way too many locations which make them feel cheap
 
2013-01-27 01:38:28 PM

syrynxx: I think silverware sets should be limited to a single place setting.  Why does anyone need 8 knives to eat?


Did you know that some people in England are trying to ban long kitchen knives? This is a link so farging click it you iceholes

I wish that was a joke.
 
2013-01-27 01:38:46 PM
So gun rights people are now using outright, unabashed racism to defend their cause?

WTF?!

Dear reasonable gun folks... distance yourself from the wackadoodles as quickly as possible. They are going to make it so the gov over reaches even what the pro GC people are asking for.

This is bad... this really really bad.
 
2013-01-27 01:39:08 PM
black people
 
2013-01-27 01:39:14 PM

Mrtraveler01: EnderX: 70% of childbirth's in Chicago are to unwed mother's.......There's your smoking gun.

I think it's more about poverty than that myself.


Their too poor to get married and have a father at home?
 
2013-01-27 01:40:30 PM
I'm just glad the right to Chicago Bear arms people finally got their thread.

www.wbbz.tv

Illinois, Indiana big source of guns used in Chicago crimes, say cops
 
2013-01-27 01:40:47 PM

Mikey1969: now you have 506. 506 is less than 800, so there is going to have to be a LOT more soaring before you will have a point.


My point was that violence and particularly murder plummeted during the gun ban.

And that people claiming the gun ban causes violence are obviously, laughably wrong.

Those points are indisputable.

I should not have suggested that lifting the handgun ban caused the uptick. But I can't help it sometimes because it just emphasizes how gun enthusiasts and Chicago-haters argue against the facts.
 
2013-01-27 01:41:13 PM

jaytkay: jaytkay: Crime plummeted in Chicago during the 30-year handgun ban.

Fark It: Utter bullshiat.

It's cute when emotional, ill-informed people try to make a lucid argument. Handguns were banned from 1982 to 2010

Murders in Chicago by year
1965:395
1974:970
1990:851
1991:927
1992:943
1993:855
1994:931
1995:828
1996:796
1997:761
1998:704
1999:643
2000:633
2001:667
2002:656
2003:601
2004:453
2005:451
2006:471
2007:448
2008:513
2009:459
2010:436
2011:435
2012:506


Seriously? You post the murders for 1974, say that the 1982 handgun ban drastically reduced murders, and don't post any data until 1990, 8 years after the ban went into effect? How many more guns made it onto Chicago's streets because of the handgun ban being lifted? How many guns that otherwise wouldn't have been legally possessed before the overturning of Chicago's gun ban have been found at crime scenes in Chicago? If any newly registered guns were found at any crime scene Emanuel and McCarthy would be howling at the moon about how overturning the ban has fueled gun violence?

Do you think going after Subway and McDonald's restaurants with code violations is a viable crime-control strategy?

Chicago's gun ban had no effect whatsoever on crime. None.
 
2013-01-27 01:42:26 PM

Molavian: RockChalkH1N1: Mrtraveler01: RockChalkH1N1: Mrtraveler01: RockChalkH1N1: Why is it that where ever a large population of black people live there is a ton of crime?

Because black people tend to live in more urban areas which tend to be more populated and have more crime?

You never hear about crime in the Black Belt of the South (a region largely populated by Blacks.)

Any more observations you'd like me to answer for you?

Why is there a disproportional amount of black people in jail?

I don't know. Do you?

No, that's why I'm asking

Dude, any second they're going to start yelling racism and it's game over from there.

Don't bother.


Black people tend to do more crime via population ratio, its not racist if its true
 
2013-01-27 01:42:36 PM

EnderX: Mrtraveler01: EnderX: 70% of childbirth's in Chicago are to unwed mother's.......There's your smoking gun.

I think it's more about poverty than that myself.

Their too poor to get married and have a father at home?


More along the lines of:

"They're poor and their only means to survive is to be a criminal".

I know people who had children out of wedlock but I don't think they're going to grow up to be criminals.
 
2013-01-27 01:43:14 PM

Mrtraveler01: jaytkay: Mrtraveler01: Say, know of any good places to get a pizza or an Italian Beef?

Pequod's Pizza

Italian Beef, I dunno, that's not my thing.

Damn that looks good.

Screw the gun thread, I'm hungry for pizza now.


Try Portillo's for italian beef. Like jaytkay, i don't really eat it, but I know friends and family who would kill for a Portillo's italian beef at most moments in their life. Also, I'd second the Pequod's suggestion, but be prepared for a crowd during peak hours. The wait is worth it.
 
2013-01-27 01:45:26 PM
Somacandra brings up an interesting point...
Gee, its almost as if the reality of guns in an urban setting (where everyone is spatially compressed and differential social problems are thus magnified) is far different from the reality of guns in a rural setting.
Are there any studies about gun ownership in urban settings vs violent crime rates?
I have a guess, but, please.... can I see the official numbers?
 
2013-01-27 01:45:33 PM

jaytkay: My point was that violence and particularly murder plummeted during the gun ban.

And that people claiming the gun ban causes violence are obviously, laughably wrong.

Those points are indisputable.


Chicago recorded a record number of homicides in 1994, and the rate was much higher than before the ban for most of the 1990s.

How did the murder rate plummet when it in fact reached record highs?
 
2013-01-27 01:45:47 PM

Running Wild: I don't really eat [Italian Beef], but I know friends and family who would kill for a Portillo's italian beef at most moments in their life.


Portillo's also has excellent Chicago hotdogs.
 
2013-01-27 01:47:22 PM

Mrtraveler01: EnderX: Mrtraveler01: EnderX: 70% of childbirth's in Chicago are to unwed mother's.......There's your smoking gun.

I think it's more about poverty than that myself.

Their too poor to get married and have a father at home?

More along the lines of:

"They're poor and their only means to survive is to be a criminal".

I know people who had children out of wedlock but I don't think they're going to grow up to be criminals.


I don't believe I said all people born out of wedlock are going to grow up to be criminal, Is that what you are trying to imply to the forum that I said? Because that would be a lie.
 
2013-01-27 01:47:40 PM

KiwDaWabbit: Greylight: Gun laws and restrictions are part of an effective strategy to prevent gun violence. Canadians have more hurdles to owning certain classes of arms, but can still own them. Compare gun related deaths between the two countries, I bet no one even needs to look it up to know that laws and regulations can work.

It's not about banning weapons, it's about regulating them to balance public safety and ownership. You can have both respectively if y'all could stop this inane partisan douchery.

Gun control isn't going to drastically reduce violence in the U.S. I'm a gun control advocate. The biggest problem lies in our culture. Violence is socially acceptable in the U.S. If it turned us off that much, something would have been done about it long ago. But, no. Hell, in some cases, criminals are revered here. There are also economic, environmental, and mental health aspects to gun violence. People in "hot spots" for gun violence in the U.S. don't put nearly the same value on life as the rest of us first world problem havers would.


The culture in the US is not common across the whole country. I in Manitoba have more in common with someone from Minisota then they would with someone from Mississippi.

The idea of a "gun culture" is not an irreversible fact of life, it is a series of choices. Now is the time for Americans to make another choice. Make the right choice this time my friends.
 
2013-01-27 01:50:14 PM

Mrtraveler01: No you don't, it's just a toy. I'm perfectly fine with you guys wanting to keep them but stop kidding me telling me you need these for self-defense or hunting and just tell me it's a toy.


Why do you think of it as a toy?
 
2013-01-27 01:51:12 PM
Fark It: Chicago recorded a record number of homicides in 1994, and the rate was much higher than before the ban for most of the 1990s.

You are cherry picking data out of the middle.

The number of murders fell roughly in half during the 30-year Chicago handgun ban.

The same as every other major US city during the same period.

Chicago, with a handgun ban, had the same kind of crime troubles as places with lax gun laws.
 
2013-01-27 01:52:51 PM

EnderX: Mrtraveler01: EnderX: Mrtraveler01: EnderX: 70% of childbirth's in Chicago are to unwed mother's.......There's your smoking gun.

I think it's more about poverty than that myself.

Their too poor to get married and have a father at home?

More along the lines of:

"They're poor and their only means to survive is to be a criminal".

I know people who had children out of wedlock but I don't think they're going to grow up to be criminals.

I don't believe I said all people born out of wedlock are going to grow up to be criminal, Is that what you are trying to imply to the forum that I said? Because that would be a lie.


No you said born out of wedlock with no father around.

I should've been more detailed in that I know people in that situtation and I don't think those mothers are going to raise a criminal.
 
2013-01-27 01:52:55 PM

jaytkay: OmarBradley: Gun control laws are a criminal's best friend.

Crime plummeted in Chicago during the 30-year handgun ban.


Ban expired in 2010, so a 30 year ban would go back to 1980. Here's the murder rates from 1990 to 2012:

Homicides in Chicago

1990: 851
1991: 927
1992: 943
1993: 855
1994: 931
1995: 828
1996: 796
1997: 761
1998: 704
1999: 643
2000: 633
2001: 667
2002: 656
2003: 601
2004: 453
2005: 451
2006: 471
2007: 448
2008: 513
2009: 459
2010: 436
2011: 435
2012: 506

Link

(It doesn't take 24 years for a gun ban to start showing a marked decrease, 1990 should have been already down to the 2011 level for your point to be valid)


This one shows a NATIONAL trend, starting in about 1994, which correlates exactly to the Chicago data. In other words, chicago's drop was part of a larger trend, and nothing special.

upload.wikimedia.org
Even New York has a similar trend:
Link
 
2013-01-27 01:54:13 PM

Greylight: The culture in the US is not common across the whole country. I in Manitoba have more in common with someone from Minisota then they would with someone from Mississippi.

The idea of a "gun culture" is not an irreversible fact of life, it is a series of choices. Now is the time for Americans to make another choice. Make the right choice this time my friends.


Right, I understand that. It's a big, diverse country and about as non-homogeneous as you can get. But, overall, I believe what I said to be more fact than fiction.

Like I said, I'd like to see more strict gun control. However, it's not going to be a panacea, as there are many other factors that contribute to gun violence in the U.S.
 
2013-01-27 01:54:21 PM

jaytkay: Fark It: Chicago recorded a record number of homicides in 1994, and the rate was much higher than before the ban for most of the 1990s.

You are cherry picking data out of the middle.

The number of murders fell roughly in half during the 30-year Chicago handgun ban.

The same as every other major US city during the same period.

Chicago, with a handgun ban, had the same kind of crime troubles as places with lax gun laws.


Did you place a large bet against yourself in this debate?
 
2013-01-27 01:54:22 PM

Mrbogey: Mrtraveler01: No you don't, it's just a toy. I'm perfectly fine with you guys wanting to keep them but stop kidding me telling me you need these for self-defense or hunting and just tell me it's a toy.

Why do you think of it as a toy?


You need an Assault Rifle for home defense when a shotgun does the same job?

You need an assault rifle for hunting? What on earth are you hunting that requires a weapon as powerful as that?
 
2013-01-27 01:54:39 PM

Mikey1969: It doesn't take 24 years for a gun ban to start showing a marked decrease, 1990 should have been already down to the 2011 level for your point to be valid


I didn't say the gun ban caused the drop in murders.
 
2013-01-27 01:55:29 PM
Oh... BTW Beefoe... I have personally seen 3 people killed by AK-47s... all in combat situations... none in the U.S. (Thank God)
And I still have no problem with responsible law-abiding gun owners being allowed to have one... hell, I'm even cool with law-abiding folks getting the full-auto, military version.
It's the most efficient, indestructible military small arm ever made... it's kinda sad that the AR-15 tends to jam so much in sandy conditions....
So, again, I will say what's been said a zillion times before:
It's not gun control we need, it's loony control.
I propose we end the drug war and put that money towards stopping the dangerous loonies
 
2013-01-27 01:56:51 PM

syrynxx: Although I think if you use 'too stupid to breed' as an insult, you shouldn't have picked a nym that paints you as someone unlikely to ever breed or even be given the opportunity.


It's probably a Led Zeppelin reference, Scooter...

Bron Y'aur Stomp
 
2013-01-27 01:57:27 PM

Somacandra: Aw Crap.

Wrong Thread.


LOL, I love when this happens to someone other than me... :-)
 
2013-01-27 01:57:35 PM

Greylight: As pointed out by a thoughtful gun rights advocate up thread: not only do Canada's arms laws and restrictions result in fewer gun related fatalities, it also results in less gang and drug war problems.


No, they don't. If you removed all the gun murders in the US and left all the gun murders in Canada and didn't touch all the other murder methods in both countries Canada would still have a lower murder rate than the US. Americans murder each other more with nongun weapons than Canadians do with gun AND nongun weapons so it's the people not the weapons that are the determining factor.

Canadians don't have the large black population that commits murders at 5 times the rate of the the rest of the population and they don't have 20 million criminal alien Mexicans who doubled their own murder rate in the drug wars in the last few years.
 
2013-01-27 01:58:42 PM

Mrtraveler01:
I know...I know...it's to rise up against our Government or something right?


You know, it's a bit disturbing when people act like understanding the constitution is beneath them.
 
2013-01-27 01:58:53 PM

DogBoyTheCat: I propose we end the drug war and put that money towards stopping the dangerous loonies


Hah, I have said before that we ought to declare a war on stopping crime since every war on an concept that we initiate makes the problem worse.
 
2013-01-27 01:58:54 PM

Mrtraveler01: Mikey1969: jaytkay: Mikey1969: bronyaur1: The NRA dummies keep pounding the pathetic argument that because Chicago has bad gun violence problems and its leaders have pursued gun restrictions, therefore the pursuit of gun restrictions causes gun violence.

Try to follow along. They are pointing out that taking away the guns is NOT reducing the crime.

Since Chicago's 30 year handgun ban ended, gun violence has soared.

Anybody trying to use Chicago as "proof" for or against gun laws is an asshole.

Well, let's look at the murders in Chicago:

1965: 395
1974: 970
1990: 851
1991: 927
1992: 943
1993: 855
1994: 931
1995: 828
1996: 796
1997: 761
1998: 704
1999: 643
2000: 633
2001: 667
2002: 656
2003: 601
2004: 453
2005: 451
2006: 471
2007: 448
2008: 513
2009: 459
2010: 436
2011: 435
2012: 506

The gun ban ended in 2010, right? Since then, there is 1 year that was higher than 2010, and going back to '90, there are only 4 years that were lower than 2012. In fact, all of the rest had 100 more murders than this "soaring" year. Well into your '30 year ban', you had 800 or 900 murders a year, now you have 506. 506 is less than 800, so there is going to have to be a LOT more soaring before you will have a point.

Link

What happened between 2003 and 2004?


A continuing national trend of lower violence?
 
2013-01-27 01:59:38 PM

DogBoyTheCat: I propose we end the drug war and put that money towards stopping the dangerous loonies


The thing is that people say this now but the next time a state has to cut it's budget, mental health is the first thing to get gutted.

They're closing mental health hospitals in my state, in Illinois, and in Louisiana.

Doesn't matter what side of the aisle, almost every state is like this. So until I actually see some action done in regards to mental health, I'm taking the concern over it with a grain of salt.
 
2013-01-27 02:02:26 PM

Mrtraveler01: Mrbogey: Mrtraveler01: No you don't, it's just a toy. I'm perfectly fine with you guys wanting to keep them but stop kidding me telling me you need these for self-defense or hunting and just tell me it's a toy.

Why do you think of it as a toy?

You need an Assault Rifle for home defense when a shotgun does the same job?

You need an assault rifle for hunting? What on earth are you hunting that requires a weapon as powerful as that?


If you think an 'assault rifle' is powerful, I have a bridge in New York for sale
 
2013-01-27 02:03:04 PM
Oh yeah... just to REALLY inflame things...
It's been brought up before, but... the increase in abortion rates seems to directly coincide (with about a 15 year wait time) with the decrease in violent crime.
So...conceivably, those babies who were aborted (mostly by lower income women) never grew up to become violent criminals.
"HMMMMMM...."
 
2013-01-27 02:04:46 PM

Greylight: As pointed out by a thoughtful gun rights advocate up thread: not only do Canada's arms laws and restrictions result in fewer gun related fatalities, it also results in less gang and drug war problems.


Either that, or it's a result of the fact that Canada has 34 million people while the US has 311 million. That's just over 10% of the total US population. California has more people than Canada, and Texas isn't far behind.

Of course, THAT couldn't be the issue, right? Also, Canada is a lot more rural, and we all know crime tends to rise in larger urban areas.
 
2013-01-27 02:05:33 PM

jaytkay: Fark It: Chicago recorded a record number of homicides in 1994, and the rate was much higher than before the ban for most of the 1990s.

You are cherry picking data out of the middle.

The number of murders fell roughly in half during the 30-year Chicago handgun ban.

The same as every other major US city during the same period.

Chicago, with a handgun ban, had the same kind of crime troubles as places with lax gun laws.


So, if I understand your comment here, Chicago's gun ban really did nothing since other cities without bans showed the same reduction. So gun bans don't work. Hmmm, very interesting.
 
2013-01-27 02:05:43 PM
So why not heavily enforce old-school eye-for-an-eye laws and execute cold-blooded murderers?

1) "then we wouldn't be any better than them". Uh, no. They killed an innocent/undeserving person. We killed a murderer.
2) "I would rather a thousand guilty men walk free than one innocent man get executed". Again, no. a) as long as juries(sp?) know what is at stake, they would be less likely to convict a person for murder with circumstantial evidence only to have the person who was supposed to have been killed walk into the scene b) letting the guilty 1000 men walk free will only encourage them to act again (see repeat offenders)
3) once criminals understand it is literally their neck on the line -not 3 hots and a cot- murders will drop. But pleeeease, none of this "dies of old age on death row"

Aren't you tired of living with bars on your windows and the criminals walking free?

/feel free to prove me wrong
// two cents per slashie
/// sorry if rambling. Tired and hungry.
 
2013-01-27 02:06:11 PM

jdjoker: JosephFinn: Wow. It's almost like the gun manufacturers weren't simply selling their murder weapons in other cities to be transported to Chicago for murders.

So the manufacturer of a legal product that sells them in accordance with all applicable laws is also responsible for illegal usage and any illegal transfers that occurred along the way?


What legal product? I thought we were talking about guns being sold to individuals.
 
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